The New Yorker Radio Hour - From The Political Scene: Donald Trump’s Dangerous Politicization of America’s Spy Agencies

Episode Date: June 30, 2026

The Washington Roundtable is joined by Jeff Stein, the veteran political reporter and founding editor of the newsletter “Spytalk,” to examine Donald Trump’s appointment of Bill Pulte as the new acting Director of National Intelligence, a position that, in theory, oversees the C.I.A., N.S.A., F.B.I., and fifteen other agencies. Pulte has no intelligence background and no national-security experience, but does have a track record of going after the President’s perceived enemies. Plus, the panel discusses a recent Washington Post investigation that raised new questions about the outgoing director, Tulsi Gabbard, and her alleged ties to a religious cult. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, one of the producers on the show. And this is a bonus episode of our podcast from our colleagues on the New Yorker's political scene. Tulsi Gabbard, the outgoing director of national intelligence, has long been a controversial figure in American politics. But this past week, a bombshell report from the Washington Post raised even more questions about her record in office as both a congresswoman and as the DNI. And then there's her replacement, Bill Pulte, who's a political, lightning rod in his own right. This week, the political scene takes a look at the latest drama surrounding Gabbard, Pulte, and the turmoil in the intelligence community more broadly during the second Trump administration.

Honestly, Jane, I feel like this reflecting pool scandal is maybe the perfect Trump 2.0 scandal. It's like a Seinfeldian. Seinfeldian's such a great word. It's just the green monster that ain't. The creature of the Green Lagoon or whatever it is. It made him mad. The madness of Donald is encapsulated. And like he's looking for the saboteurs.

He's going to start blaming it on communists. That's where this is going. It's going there for sure. Green slime from the red peril. That's pretty good, actually. You could have a future in that. Welcome to the political scene from the New Yorker, a weekly discussion about the big questions in American politics.

I'm Jane Mayer, and I'm joined by my colleagues Susan Glasser and Evan Osnos. Hey, Susan. Hey, there. Great to be with you. Hi, Evan. Hey, there, guys. Well, this week, American intelligence agencies are in an alarming state of disarray, and it starts at the top. Trump has named Bill Pulte to be the new acting director of national intelligence, which at least in theory has some kind of purview over the CIA. the NSA, the FBI, and 15 other agencies. Many have questioned whether there's really any serious

power in the job, but on paper, it looks like he has authority over them. Meanwhile, Pulte has no intelligence background and no national security experience whatsoever. What he does have is a track record of carrying out Trump's campaign of retribution against his perceived enemies. Meanwhile, a blockbuster Washington Post investigation this week revealed that the outgoing director of national intelligence who oversees America's vast spying network, Tulsi Gabbard, was secretly guided by an alleged cult leader through much of her political career. These developments raise bizarre questions. Few of us have ever thought we'd have to ask, such as, who is actually, who is actually, actually running American intelligence and in whose interests. So, Susan, Evan, what on earth is going on in the office of the director of national intelligence? And how bad is this? You know, Jane, the truth is there's so many crazy things happening right now. It might be tempting just to sort of say, like,

okay, it's another, you know, wacky person installed by Donald Trump to wreak some havoc temporarily. But, you know, one of the lesser appreciated scandals of Trump's second term is how much he has looked at this huge number of 18 different intelligence agencies of the federal government as two things. One, an instrument to wreak revenge and retribution on the deep state that he thinks has been undermining him. And two, as almost a vast treasure trove of documents and information just waiting to. to be revealed and released and used against his enemies. And I think the fact that he has essentially even temporarily withdrawn a kind of more acceptable alternative to succeed Gabbard as DNI and looks to put in this completely unqualified person as his acting DNI

with a mandate to fire people and to quote looked into the quote unquote rigged elections, which is the mandate that he gave Bill of Pulte, I think that's very much worth spending a few minutes of our time. Yeah, I have to say, I mean, there has been a cascade of stories recently that, as we're going to talk about on this show, each one of them kind of is a bit mind-bending. I mean, just to reiterate what you said a moment ago, Jane,

we are dealing with a story that was in the Washington Post about the fact that Tulsi Gabbard, the now outgoing Director of National Intelligence, was being directed, according to this piece, by the leader of this cult that she was associated with growing up in Hawaii. We're going to get into all the details. But a lot of this really makes you wonder what is going on inside the intelligence community. And I'm very glad we're going to be talking about it because it doesn't get a lot of airtime. So in today's episode, what are the perils of a dysfunctional DNA?

What happens when American intelligence is politicized? and why is Trump doing this now? To help us understand all of this, we have today a special guest, Jeff Stein, a longtime investigative journalist at Newsweek and the Washington Post, and the founding editor of SpyTalk,

a substack newsletter covering U.S. intelligence, defense, and foreign policy. Jeff, welcome. So glad you can join us here today. Thanks much. I'm pleased to be here. Thank you. You've reported on the intelligence community for years. So what are people saying about the recent leadership shakeups and other dysfunction?

And what are you hearing? Well, there's a lot of dismay, but it's in the context of a dismay about everything in U.S. foreign policy. Or the reflecting poll. I mean, there's one thing after another every day. I think, you know, changes at the top of the intelligence community are not of a great concern in most Americans. but there'd be great concern if they were attacked tomorrow. And Tulsi Gabbard already cleaned out some 40% people from ODNI or claimed to have. And now we got this guy Bill Pulte with zero intelligence experience

or any national security experience, for that matter, walking in and cleaning out more. So I'd like to know who he's bringing with him to the ODNI to tell him who should be cut and who should stay. It's just, it's chaos. Well, under the statute by which the Office of the Director of National Intelligence was created, it requires that the person leading it have extensive national security experience. Does Pulte have any? Zero. He's never even been a private in the Army.

He's never been near national security. He's an heir to a housing fortune in Florida, who, hung out at Maralago. He runs a housing finance agency, which he's only used as far as we can tell. He might have done something good there, but what he's famous or notorious for is using it to go after Trump's enemies to investigate their mortgages. So he has zero experience, this is short answer. Help us understand a bit about what the office of the DNI is, Jeff. People may remember that it was created specifically after 9-11 in order to address the kind of intelligence failures, particularly the failure to coordinate across agencies and things like that. But do you get the

sense now, one, is this a meaningful job? If so, what is it? What do they actually have responsibility for? And to be clear, the Director of National Intelligence is formally in charge of a $100 billion budget for the intelligence community, right? But then does that mean that person actually has the ability to reach into the different agencies and direct them to do things, or is it not that level of control? Well, of course, Congress isn't charged the budget. But the head of the ODNI apportions the budget and can say we ought to emphasize more on this, deemphasize that, put more people into counterintelligence or counterterrorism, less people into human intelligence. We should integrate AI into intelligence. That's a very big cutting edge field right now using AI.

We should spend more on signals intercepts, eavesdropping on foreign conversations. That's what the OD&I is supposed to do. And it's staffed by a lot of people from these agencies who lend their expertise to the Director of National Intelligence and say, well, this is working, but that isn't working. Also, the ODNI has some control or direction over the Defense Department, covert programs, military intelligence, and spending in science and technology, which is very important when it's gotten some bad publicity recently because a senior executive in science and technology caught with gold bars in his basement and so on. and it was running a made-up covert action program. So it's a big, big job. And it takes not only experience with intelligence, but bureaucratic experience, too,

how to pull together these, all these horses, pull them together and make them pull the sled in the same direction. So, Jeff, can I ask you what is it that Donald Trump specifically seems to have against the DNI? You know, it looks like going back. to his first term in office, he's become increasingly of the mind that there are enemies within to be rooted out there. He had a terrible experience as he saw it with his first director back in the first term. Dan Coates, a very establishment Republican former senator who, you know, according to reporting, what we did for our book, who looked at Trump's performance in Helsinki when Trump took Vladimir Putin's word over that of those intelligence agencies.

Dan Coats turned to his deputies and he said, maybe Vladimir Putin really does have something on Donald Trump after all. Is that what's at the heart of Donald Trump's campaign against the DNI right now? What's going on there? Rigged elections, right? That's the hot burner on his stove. And he pounds that theme day after day after day. And what he has against, the intelligence agencies, is that they concluded that the Russians interfered in the 2016 elections to his benefit. The overall aim of Russian intelligence was just to create chaos in U.S. elections, and that's always been their objective going back decades, but they've never really succeeded until 2016, according to intelligence community reporting. This really pissed off Trump because it

cast doubt on his elections. He's now got a federal grand jury going after people who were involved in the reporting on Russian interference in the elections. And remember, he sent Tulsi Gabbard, or maybe she did it on her own initiative, to please Trump. He sent her to Georgia to oversee the seizure of ballots in Georgia. So he wants to use the intelligence agencies to continue to cast doubt on the legitimacy of American elections. And we're all just waiting for Bill Pulte to pull a similar stunt that Tulsi Gabbard did. Well, forgive me for a really naive, old-fashioned question, but aren't there some restrictions on using the U.S. intelligence agencies to spy on Americans and do domestic operations that might, for instance, make it look like

there's election fraud when it doesn't exist? Well, yes. Yes, there are, and that's not a naive question. It needs to be asked again and again today because he has six the FBI with his footman, Cash Patel, to establish links between this hazy thing called Antifa, which seems to be more of a movement, anti-fascist movement. And he has designated these people as sort of enemies of the state. and he just announced an arrest of several people and trying to link them to Antiva,

even though the head of FBI counterintelligence, while in congressional testimony, couldn't name who the leader of Antifa is or where it was located. And the reason for that is there is no leader of Antiva, and it isn't located any place. So that's the problem. He's politicized the principal arm of counterintelligence

and counterterrorism, go after domestic political enemies. And Tulsi Gabbard, for one, was all too happy to, you know, earn Trump's trust in her by joining that campaign. So it's very dangerous. But the short answer is, yes, there are laws against this kind of activity. Well, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to dig in a little bit further into the subject of Tulsi Gabbard and the Washington Post reporting on her, that alleges that she has ties to a very strange cult that calls itself the science of identity group. We will be right back. This is the political scene from the New Yorker. So, Jeff, before Bill Pulte, the DNI was, as we've been talking about, Tulsi Gabbard,

and her tenure is now under renewed scrutiny. A Washington Post investigation that came out this week, along with reporting in your newsletter, Spy Talk, back in 2024, unearthed hundreds of encrypted memos seeming to show that a man named Chris Butler, who for years has been some kind of reclusive and self-aggrandizing religious guru in Hawaii, has allegedly directed Tulsi Gabbard's policy positions, basically dictating everything from her legislative agenda to her media talking points throughout her time in Congress. We don't know still whether this lasted on through her period at the DNI. On many instances, Gabbard used language in the memo's verbatim. Here's one of the quotes that's in the Washington Post article. An October 12th, 2015 memo labeled CNN Wolf Blitzer Talking Points final told her exactly what to say about reports that

she'd been asked by Democratic leadership not to attend a presidential debate. She was told to say, it's not a boo-hoo, I don't get to go to a party situation, Wolf. Now listen to exactly what she did say to Wolf Blitzer on CNN that same day. The issue here is not about me saying, boo-hoo, I'm going to miss the party. There you go. It's just bizarre. So, Jeff, I mean, are you surprised to hear that clip and her just, Word for word, repeating somebody else's statement?

Well, it was an extraordinary piece of reporting by John Swain, I must say. The ties between Tulsi Gabbard and this rogue Hindu guru have been well known in Hawaii for a long time, not just her, but her family. We reported, as you noted back in 2024 about their ties to this, what's new in the Washington Post reporting, is the strong evidence that she took orders from this guy. He was telling her what to say and what to do for years, going back to her congressional terms from Hawaii as a Democrat, as kind of a peacnick Democrat or Bernie Sanders follower.

He was sending in the plays like the coach on the sideline in an NFL football game. So that's the really mind-blowing new discovery by the, post. Do you suspect that there will be an investigation into what happened? Is there going to be any kind of scrutiny about how and what this might have amounted to? Or do people just begin to move on and say it's time to talk about Bill Pulte? I think there's just a feeling of good riddance with Tulsi Gabbard. She left a couple of presidents for Trump on the way out the door, by the way. She reinvigorated a phony Kremlin propaganda campaign saying that the U.S. had funded secret biological warfare

plants in Ukraine, among other places. This was circulated widely during the 2022 invasion, and it was picked up by a number of segments of the left who like these kinds of conspiracy stories. So there's no basis for it whatsoever. Isn't that exactly the problem? I mean, that somebody in there can take what in this case was Russian fake propaganda and release it as something coming out of the American intelligence community, giving it a whole new life and making it look credible. I mean, it's just an unbelievable mess in terms of figuring out what's real and what's fake and spreading lies, basically. You're absolutely right. This report, this year, but it was picked apart pretty quickly by experts. on the subject who noted that the map she put out didn't even have Kiev in the right place. It didn't have this plant. There was a town that she just sort of made up or someone told her about in Ukraine where one of these plants was supposedly located.

It doesn't exist. I mean, it was just shredded. But how much of that filtered sound to the general public? This is not a big concern. I had a chat with a medical assistant in the doctor's office yesterday. she knew a little bit about my background. And I asked her, do you follow the news? She says, well, you know, a little bit.

She said that reflecting pole thing, you know, I think that's landing with a lot of facts. That's breaking through. Before we leave, Tulsi Gabbard, by the way, there's one other thing that she dropped on the way out the door. Another phony story about the Wuhan lab and COVID. She again cycled as a proven fact that the Wuhan lab manufacturer, this COVID virus that got out of hand, and that Anthony Fauci somehow knowingly, deliberately misreported, skewed intelligence to absolve the Chinese. I mean, it gets kind of complicated,

but there's nothing to do with that. The fact is, and fact checkers have delved into this pretty deeply since you did this last week, it's inconclusive. We still don't know what exactly happened in Wuhan because the Chinese have not been transparent about it. But she, you know, passed this off as a fact, and that was another goodbye gift to Donald Trump on the way out the door. So she's just manufacturing falsehoods on the way out the door. So it looks like Tulsi Gabbard has created a playbook for a Trump DNI, Jeff. And that involves essentially dumpster diving in this trove of intelligence across these agencies and looking for opportunities to score political points. Now, she may have run afoul of the president because she doesn't have the same

foreign policy views with him, clearly not on the same page when it came to the war in Iran, which he unleashed. Bill Pulte, tell us a little bit about, you know, where you think he might head with the revenge and retribution thing, as you pointed out about rigged elections. He's already shown this remarkable ability to get into the White House from this obscure housing position and, you know, sort of offer himself up as Donald Trump's man of vengeance. What do you think somebody who was more effective than Tulsi Gabbard could do, you know, in this job? Well, she's fired some 40 percent, or she claims to a fire at some 40 percent of the staff at ODNI already. And now, Pulte, according to reports, is five.

fired six immediate staff and sent 45 staffers home to their parent agencies. And he says, that's it for now. I'd like to know where, you know, how did he decide who should go back to their agency? Who has he brought with him to the OD? Because he doesn't know anything about it. There's nothing in his background that would tell us that he would know who to fire and who to keep. One thing I would look for, for example, and go, oh, of course, he could find some raw reporting that said, say, Iran was on the verge of developing a nuclear weapon. They were two weeks away. This is something that Trump is assertive forever. And there's no intelligence we know of that backs up that thing. I mean, there were so many steps away from developing a nuclear weapon, much less one that could be screwed. atop a missile, an ICBM, and fired at any length. So it's all a false notion, but he's in big trouble with the Iran war. I would not be surprised if somehow Bill Pulte comes up and waves in intelligence report, waves a piece of paper in front of the cameras and said,

we have found the real truth that Iran was right on the verge of developing a nuclear war. Would you be surprised? No. What you're describing, Jeff, is a scenario in which you have an office that has the platform and the capacity to inject nonsense into public life, whether it's bogus allegations about Anthony Fauci or it's about Ukraine or, as you just described, potentially trying to salvage Trump's rationale for the Iran war. And all of this seems as if it just contributes to the overall decline of American confidence in the intelligence community at a time when people already are saying, I don't know what I can trust. I don't know if I can trust the image. Is it by AI? I don't know if I can trust these tweets. Are they bots? So there is a way in which Trump has

now ushered the intelligence community into this culture of disbelief, perhaps you can call it, because he has made it utterly unreliable with people like this. We've touched on a really good subject. It's one thing for him to manipulate the heads of national intelligence. It's It's another thing to discredit the intelligence community in general. Why would he want to do that? He must know at some level that discrediting American intelligence, which he began to do out loud, as you mentioned before, the Helsinki conference in 2018, in which he took Vladimir Putin's word over U.S. intelligence on Russian interference in the elections.

Now, why would he want to do that? I mean, that goes back to this larger question of what kind of relationship does Trump have with Vladimir Putin? Why would he risk U.S. national security in line with what Vladimir Putin's aims are? I mean, that's got to be a chief aim. I was really struck in this new, buzzy new book that everybody's reading this week, the Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan book. there's this remarkable scene on page six of the book in which Donald Trump is deciding who to put in the cabinet. Tulsi Gabbard comes up and Donald Trump literally says, well, what the hell? Let's give it to Tulsi.

What harm could she really do noting the book does? She was being promoted by Roger Stone and it's not just the mysterious cult, but one important thing to note for the listeners in context for this conversation. is that Tulsi Gabbard throughout her career has taken positions like Donald Trumps that were remarkably soft on Vladimir Putin. She made that mysterious trip to Syria in 2017 at the height of the war when Syria was essentially a client state of the Russians. I feel like your point is really well taken here about Gabbard and why the DNI matters to people. Yeah, I mean, the important reporting of the Washington Post in John Swing, was that there's no question now because of the evidence that was produced in that story, thousands of emails showing this Hindu guru calling in the place,

and Tulsi, like a marionette, you know, repeating what he wants her to say. The next question would be, was there any relationship between this Hindu guru and Vladimir Putin, the Russians, the Syrians? I mean, you have to ask. Why would a congresswoman, who later became Odea, why would she be siding with Bashar al-Assad saying that it was the opposition that threw poison gas as Syrian villagers when, you know, there was evidence that emerged long before. Then, in fact, it was the Assad regime. Why would she take Putin's position on elect interference? And she was on Russian TV a lot. They loved her in Kremlin.

They crowed out loud. in the Kremlin. Tulsie's our gal. So I think that's the next question for investigators. What was a relationship, if any, no evidence that there is any. But wouldn't we ask, was there a relationship between this Hindu guy and his businesses, by the way, which we delved into in 2024, his global businesses? I had one more intelligence community question. It's also somewhat alarming that's come out of this whole thing, which is this warrantless wiretapping law, Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which has just expired. Does this mean we have blind spots around the world at a time when we are, to some extent, in a war with Iran?

I think the Hawks would say that for sure. I mean, they say this is an irreplaceable tool. There are lots of concerns, and this is why it's been hung up for some time, over its warrantless surveillance. They can listen to Americans. They can get their communications records from Google and so on, from mail servers. So this has sidelined this surveillance tool, which is adherence, say, is an absolute necessity for monitoring terrorist threats and influence operations against America. God help us if there's another terrorist attack. And you look at this absence at the time. of someone, any qualifications running OD-E-9, plus all the cuts in counterterrorism and counter-intelligence, including Iran specialists at the FBI.

So put those two things together, and it gives me the shivers. Great. Well, this will be another sleepless night. Thanks so much, Jeff. No, seriously. Thank you. Thank you so much for being with us and helping decode. the intelligence agencies and the debacle at the DNI's office.

It's an honor to be on your show. Thank you. The political scene from the New Yorker will be back in just a moment. So what did you think, Susan? There's no floor here. I mean, you know, I referenced reading the regime change book, and the reason is not just the crazy way in which Tulsi Gabbard was appointed, But both Gabby and Bill Pulte in some ways are these very representative figures of Trump 2.0, right? There are people whose agendas are opaque, who come from nowhere,

who never, ever, ever would have had these sensitive national security jobs if it weren't for Donald Trump, who seems to be on a mission to take a sledgehammer to the credibility and good faith of the government of the United States. That was really blowed away. We didn't talk about it. But there's this amazing quote from Republican, now unleashed, retiring Republican Senator Tom Tillis, you know, who was asked about Bill Pulte the other day. And he said, well, my guess is based on his past experience, it's just going to be another hot steaming pile of doge shit. But, you know, it seems to me having this conversation with Jeff Stein, who I should say is an old friend of mine, you know, and has always been a really great counselor to me on various matters and how to decode.

intelligence community. But I think a pile of steaming pile of doge is the best case scenario here, you know, that they're just looking to, you know, kind of cut the federal workforce. When I listen to Jeff, when I read this account of how Pulte got into Donald Trump's favor in the Oval Office by promising to take down Jay Powell, chairman of the Federal Reserve, he actually Pulte, according to Maggie and Jonathan's reporting, Pulte actually prewrote a letter from Donald Trump firing Jay Powell. And Donald Trump was so taken with that, that was one of the ways in which he ingratiated himself with the President of the United States. So this man, having the keys to our intelligence community, I think is frankly terrifying in a way that goes beyond potentially firing people. I think that one of the chilling reflections that Jeff leaves us with is the sense that if you go back to the history of the.

prelude to 9-11 in 2001. At the time, what you saw was, to be concise about it, you saw a lot of professional intelligence work and a combination of political valence, and the result was diabolical. You had people that were blinding themselves to what was coming. You had ultimately then the run-up to the war in Iraq, in which the intelligence community was drawn into the political project of Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz and others. And this is a history, which is now far enough in the past that I think a lot of particularly, you know, younger Americans don't really know some of this. But for all of us who were seared by that history, who I think, you know, know what can happen when an intelligence community is either misused or is dysfunctional and ineffective, this should be a blaring alarm for a country that is at risk in a way that it wouldn't be if it had real leadership in these positions. Totally. I mean, as someone who covered those hijackers and the intelligence communities breakdown over it, what happened was the CIA knew that two of the hijackers for the 9-11 plane hijackings, for the plane that went into the Pentagon, two of them the CIA knew had come into the United States and didn't tip off the FBI that they were here. And those two hijackers burrowed into the community in San Diego. and then worked with al-Qaeda to plan the planes hijacking.

And because these two agencies weren't speaking to each other, the FBI knew about these guys also, but didn't know their history before this. And the CIA knew the history, but not where they went afterwards when they came into the U.S. You know, these things matter. It was just a tragedy beyond tragedy what happened because of these problems.

And then just to sort of recreate them so casually by putting people, in who have no idea what they're doing, they're just playing Russian roulette with American security. And I think to pick up on one other thing that Jeff drew our attention to is now looking ahead to to the midterm elections, you've already got Donald Trump talking about a rigged election. And this is now going to be the mantra over the course of the next few months. Susan, you know, here he is now in a position to be able to, and your phrase is a great one, go dumpster diving to find whatever he wants across all of these.

different agencies and to put things out into the informational bloodstream, which has the effect of just undermining people's confidence in the system, diminishing their enthusiasm to participate. All of this ultimately can conspire to really create a political perfect storm. Can it not? Yeah, I mean, absolutely, Evan, and especially because Donald Trump said the mission for Pulte, was to look into the rigged elections. He means both backward-looking, i.e., to vindicate him. from the charge that he is somehow a pawn of the Russians when he was elected to office in 2016,

but also in a forward-looking sense. And remember that one of the conspiracy theories that is circulated forever by Trump and people like Tulsi Gabbard has to do with somehow some vague, nefarious foreign interference in the 2020 election, which Donald Trump lost and refuses to admit he lost. And that goes back to this crazy conspiracy theory involving Venezuela and, Dominion voting machines. And so when I think about what could Pulte do, I hadn't thought about Jeff's scenario, which is the, you know, manufacture or produce some kind of proof that Donald Trump wasn't just

talking out of his, you know, rear end with his claims about Iran and a nuclear weapon. But what I have thought a lot about is how might they bring in foreign actors into their burgeoning conspiracy theories about the 2026 election, and that's where this enormous, and I can't overstate this, I think, the vastness of the American intelligence collection apparatus, it sees and hears an unbelievable amount of stuff, and it can be deployed in the effort to prove that Democrats are not legitimately winning elections this fall. Or that opponents or critics of Donald Trump are antiques. or whatever else you want to call them, as he pointed out, too, where you could sort of create

domestic investigations and enemies. It's just altogether. I'm even more appalled than when we started here today. I'm sorry. But it was great to have this conversation. At least we will have our antenna up to watch for false intelligence coming out of there. We will. I have to say, the stories we talked about today are stories that are jaw-dropping. And I hate to say it, but this is the kind of episode that I think you need to bookmark and think about, let's look back on it in a few months and see how much of this has become part of the news. Great to join you guys today. Thank you very much. Fantastic to be together, as usual.

That was an episode from the Political Scene podcast, a bonus for New Yorker Radio Hour listeners. Thanks for joining us, and we'll be back later this week with more.