The New Yorker Radio Hour - Getting Detained by ICE—on Purpose

Episode Date: March 15, 2019

In 2012, two young activists from the National Immigrant Youth Alliance went on an undercover mission to infiltrate the Broward Transitional Center, an Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility in Florida. NIYA had been contacted by the son of a man named Claudio Rojas, who was taken from his home by immigration agents and brought to Broward. NIYA has been compared to ACT UP; its members try to force confrontations with authorities over immigration policy. The two activists, who are themselves undocumented, pretended to be newly arrived, confused immigrants who spoke little English. They got themselves arrested by somewhat perplexed Border Patrol agents. The story of those activists is told in a new film called “The Infiltrators,” which recently showed at the Sundance Festival and South by Southwest. It is a kind of quasi-documentary, the directors Cristina Ibarra and Alex Rivera tell David Remnick; because they were not able to film inside the ICE facility, they staged a reënactment of the events inside a decommissioned mental hospital. Rojas, who had been released from detention after staging a hunger strike, advised the production for verisimilitude. But after the movie’s release, Rojas was suddenly re-detained during a routine check-in with ICE, which he attended with his lawyer. “For eight years I presented myself for supervision visits,” Rojas tells The New Yorker’s Camila Osorio, speaking on the phone from detention. “Why didn’t they detain me before? . . . I am completely sure that this is a reprisal against me, that they want to deport me no matter what.” New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

From One World Trade Center in Manhattan, this is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of the New Yorker and WNYC Studios. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. In 2012, a man named Claudio Rojas was taken from his home in Florida by immigration and customs enforcement, ICE. Now, that was hardly unusual. He was one of more than 400,000 people detained that year. But what happened next was out of the ordinary, to say the least. Rojas's son contacted the National Immigrant Youth Alliance for help with his father's case. And two young activists with that group went on an undercover mission to infiltrate the Brower Transitional Center where Rojas was being held. They pretended to be newly arrived undocumented immigrants barely speaking English, and they got themselves arrested by ICE deliberately.

They wanted to find out exactly what was going on at the center and reported out to the world. and Rojas himself was eventually released from detention after leading a hunger strike there. Their story, those activists and Claudio Rojas, is told in a new film called The Infiltrators. Now, it's not exactly a documentary, it's a kind of quasi-documentary, and we'll explain that in a second. It showed recently at the Sundance Film Festival and in Austin at South by Southwest. I talked with the director's Christina Ibarra and Alex Rivera early in the morning, after their screening in Austin, last week. So, Alex, the two activists are named Viridiana Martinez and Marco Savedra.

These are, in a sense, the two heroes in this film. These are the people that are activists and infiltrate these detention centers. Who are they? Sure, so Marco and Viti are both folks that commonly might be referred to as dreamers, meaning they were brought to this country at a very young age. They were both brought from Mexico. Marco from southern Mexico from Oaxaca and Viti from northern Mexico from Monterey. And they both ended up, their families ended up finding opportunity and staying in this country.

And 20 years later, they're young adults in America, very Americanized, but without papers, without social security numbers. And they turned in their early 20s to activism, realizing that without a social security number, they couldn't get a job. They were living in fear of deportation. So this small group that Marco and Viti joined said, you know, we're going to take big risks to push for some kind of change. And they were kind of a splinter of this larger dreamer movement. They were the radical fringe, kind of the act up of immigration is maybe one way to sort of think about what they were doing. The act up of immigration. So an interesting analogy of all the groups that the anti-AIDS groups, Actup considered itself the most radical.

some ways and the most attention getting. Has this group, the National Immigrant Youth Alliance, succeeded in getting the kind of attention that Act Up did in its time? I think so. The National Immigrant Youth Alliance was in this kind of heyday around 2012, and they were really the first group to do civil disobedience from the undocumented community. Again, so risking their deportation as a political protest, using their body not only to make a political statement, but to kind of create a crisis for the authorities. So they came together and were looking for cases. They worked cases for a couple of years and really learned how to navigate the system. They learned so much about the way the immigration system works. And when they found out about this one particular case at Brower Transitional Center, they saw that there was an opportunity here to, to do something bigger.

Meaning they essentially make their way into these detention facilities. How did they get access to them and what was the risk to themselves? Sure. So for this particular action, they walked up to Border Patrol stations in Florida and essentially presented themselves.

They kind of created a dialogue with the Border Patrol agent in which they seemed to accidentally disclose that they had crossed the border illegally. And with the hope of being taken in, And, you know, when they decided they wanted to get taken in by Border Patrol, it actually, they discovered that it was kind of hard to get detained on purpose. And so. Why was that?

Well, because it's completely bizarre. And the Border Patrol officials were like, what is this? Why are you telling me this? Go away. Each of them had to attempt multiple times to get detained. But they were very determined to be detained and to go into this Florida detention center. What can I do for you? Um, hi.

I'm looking for my cousin. My cousin, why? We may think he's detained by a board of patrol. Is he an illegal alien? Does he have papers to be here? No, he don't have papers. Well, did they feel that they had some level of protection? At that moment in time, I mean, yes to a degree,

because they each had been arrested in a civil disobedience before, sitting in the street, sitting in a politician's office. So they had gone through the system and been released. And so they had kind of done these tests where they believed that maybe because Obama was saying nice things about dreamers, even though they were getting deported, if they could do these actions in public and get in the news, maybe they could be safe.

Maybe they could find some political power. And they had. And so when they'd turned themselves into Border Patrol at this moment, they had a theory, which was maybe we can get in to a detention center because we're undocumented, but maybe we can get out because we have some power in the media and we can make some noise from inside this detention center. So that was kind of the escape hatch. But there was no DACA, there was no formal protection that they had. Christina, one of the detainees that you focus on is named Claudia Rojas. And how long had he been in the United States? So by the time that this story is set, Glazerrohas has at this point been in the country for about 15 years. He had been in detention for seven months. He's a father, an Argentinian father, with two sons. And he has never committed a crime.

Right. And the son contacted National Immigrant Youth Alliance, didn't he? Right. So Emiliano Rojas contacted the National Immigrant Youth Alliance for support. in trying to figure out how to get his father out of detention. And was he thinking that he would get Marco to go in and help, or was there a simpler motive behind his call? So Emiliano didn't exactly know what to do.

He had already exhausted all of the resources that he knew how. He had tried to get lawyers. So Emiliano kind of had reached the end of his rope. And it was almost like a last resort. You know, he was online. He saw these activists who were willingly exposing their status. and he said, you know, and they were saying, we know how to stop deportations. And so Emiliano reaches out and asks, you know, how can you help me?

What can I do? And through this relationship that developed, they slowly started to discover that Gladi was a natural organizer. Glauio was revealing these different cases inside that Nia found were cases that they knew how to work. So how were Marco and Vida Diana, essentially our heroes in this film, managing to get ICE to release detainees all the same. So the infiltrators, when they're in there, they're giving information about how to get out, helping people file asylum claims, et cetera, things like that, basic things that can help get people out. So some of the people that they helped release was through that, saying, hey, you've suffered violence in your home country, file for asylum. You, this other person,

you're, you know, you fit this category, you could apply for bond. You, this other person, you're a dreamer. Let's put political pressure on the administration and get them out. So inside they were almost like pro bono lawyers, defenders, educators, educators, translators, those were the kinds of activities that they were doing inside detention. Now, as filmmakers, you were faced with an enormous challenge. I have to say, as a viewer of documentaries, I'm not usually wild about recreations in documentaries, although we see it all the time. Here, it's a necessity, and you make a virtue of it.

you really succeed because you have to film, quote, unquote, inside the detention center where you can't get a camera. So tell me how you creatively face this challenge for your film. You know, the infiltrators themselves are so creative in their tactics and the way that they organize and they work. And one of the things that I saw that really spoke to me was the way that they were taking all of the stories that they learned through this deal. deportation defense work. And they were really learning how to embody them into this role, into a performance, because when they were trying to get themselves detained, there was this feeling of privilege that they carried on themselves. They say they feel like they're, you know, they look and act like a border patrol agent might say is a typical American. And so how do you,

how do you then become someone else? How do you show this vulnerable immigrant? And the way they did that is they studied a role. They prepared the way that an actor prepares. Alex, how did you go about recreating the Broward transitional facility? What did you use instead? Sure. So we filmed the recreations for the detention center in Southern California in a decommission mental facility called Lantern in Pomona, California.

And it's just very big, cold, kind of oppressive, institutional setting. And then, but because we're... we were kind of recreating this story and entering into this landscape of script and reproduction, we were able to dialogue with the subjects of the film, the protagonists, as we call them, including Claudio Rojas himself. And so Claudio spent seven months in the detention center, and so he was on set with us during the filming, working with the art department, working with hair and makeup. He was working with all the different team members to help make a kind of authentic reproduction. And that was something that I think we both as filmmakers really loved was like

kind of getting out of the subject-object relationship that is sort of the core of documentary and journalism and entering this kind of unknown realm where we were editing a documentary, but interweaving a kind of fiction or reproduction into it. And because of that scripting and reproduction process, we were able to dialogue with the folks who lived the story and say, does this look right? What do you think? Did you know they have solitary in here? Sure. You did?

And he didn't tell me this? Why? You scared? I'm not scared. Of course not. I just didn't know. Just don't get sent there. And also, we have somebody coming by later.

They're going to bring you some paperwork. Gotta go, my left. Maria. Okay, okay. I... Now, Christine and Alex, I think any viewer of this film is going to have human sympathy with the detainees. There's no question about it.

But some people who are listening to... to our conversation might be thinking, well, it's awful, it's sad that these people are in this facility, but they broke the law. And what do you say to that? Sure. I mean, everybody breaks laws every day. Who doesn't speed? Who doesn't? There's tons of laws that get kind of bent and broken all the time. And so we also have a notion in the society that the punishment should equal the crime. And what we have in this reality, we're living in now are people being locked up, families, children, being locked up for months and years for moving, not for hurting anyone, not for stabbing anyone, not for stealing for

for moving. Well, you say moving, but they're not moving from Portland to Seattle. They're crossing a national border and there are laws about that. What in your view, what is the politics animating your view of this? What do you think should be the proper policy for this? Sure. So for me, as an artist, I'm not a politician or a lawmaker. I'm a person interested in the human condition and questions that are ethical and moral.

And for me, I know my dad moved to this country. He happened to come with a visa. I have other cousins who came without visas who are undocumented. But to me, there's something moral about this question of immigration. There needs to be a moral dimension to it. And to me, the moral dimension is that we live in a world in which the rich and powerful can move anywhere they want in the world. But the people who are working class who have the biggest needs are meant to be trapped behind walls and kind of manage. Their movement managed, kind of like animals or something.

So for me, I personally believe in a freedom of movement. Do you believe in open borders? I believe in a freedom of movement. What's the difference? Well, for me, it's a linguistic difference. that the freedom of movement highlights the moral core of this question, which is that when people move out of necessity to be with their loved ones to work, to me, they're expressing their freedom. And I personally, I wouldn't want to lock someone in a cage for doing that.

Now, Christina, Claudio Rojas was recently detained again during a standard check. Is this a normal process? So, Bluador had been going to his regular immigration. check-ins for seven years. And after this film had its Sundance premiere and won awards, and a week before it was to have his Florida premiere where Glauio was about to attend with his family and his friends from church, he was detained at his regular check-in. Now, what changed between the last time that he checked in and this time? The only difference that we see is that now he's known as someone who speaks out against the abuses inside the detention center.

So this is becoming more of a First Amendment battle where there's this retaliation against him for being an outspoken critic. We're sort of living inside the film because the film tells the story of the campaign to get Claudio Rojas out and we never imagined he'd be back in again exactly when the film is kind of coming out into the world. And we're doing everything that we can with our networks and with the visibility of the film to try to elevate Claudio's case and get him out. We all believe that, you know, all of the 40,000 people in detention right now, the mothers, the children, the fathers, etc. We believe they should be free.

But we have to start with Claudio. If we can't get Claudio out, then our theory of change and sort of the theory of the movie, you know, doesn't hold. The film is an important and extraordinary film, The Infiltrators. Alex Rivera and Christina Ibarra. Thank you. Thanks, thank you. Now, we were able to speak with Claudio Rojas, who's being held at the Chrome Service Processing Center in Miami.

Rojas has been told that he'll be deported at the end of this month, and he believes it's because of his involvement with the infiltrators. Here's Rojas with the New Yorkers Camila Osorio. Hello, Claudio. Hi, Camilla, this is Claudio Rojas. So glad we are able to talk. I'm sorry, it has to be under this circumstances. We wanted to talk to you because we wanted to know how have you been this past weeks, how you have felt what's happened?

Well, since I've been here, I've been sick. I came in healthy and I've been sick this whole time. So imagine how I feel. I'm not only separated from my family, but I'm here sick. We're in a room that is supposedly for 80 people, but there's 160 people. All the air is contaminated, you know, with viruses, you see. So I caught something in my throat. And when I was in the other detention center, there were six of us sharing a room.

Here, there's 160 of us sharing one room. Claudia, we also wanted to ask you, what happened? How were you detained? Can you give us more detail? Was it two weeks ago? Two weeks ago, I presented myself for a routine check-in, very normal, a supervision visit. I was with my lawyer. We had a petition.

A lawyer presented a petition. They made us wait four to five hours. At one point, suddenly they opened a door on the side. They called us, they put me in, and they said, they told me we have the order to detain me. So we were surprised, both me and my lawyer. My lawyer explained we had presented something, but they said, no, that they had to detain me.

And there I was in shock. It was a routine checking visit. A routine visit. I wanted to ask you about that. You had been going to those check-ins for how long since you were detained in 2012 and then release? How often did you go to sea ice? The visits were once a year,

but when the administration changed with the new administration that we have and zero-tolerance policy things have changed a bit, they started scheduling visits every six months, and lately they were scheduling them every three months. That's how the visits worked. What I'm trying to say is, you know, for eight years, I presented myself for supervision visits.

Why didn't they detain me before? Why are they detaining me just now when we were releasing a movie? Right, why now? That's what I wanted to ask you. If you think that because of this movie, this is a form of punishment coming from the administration. Before I would say yes, I think so. But now I'm totally sure that this is a form of retribution

because they're delaying everything my lawyer presents. They're delaying it or rejecting it. For example, they could give me a stay of removal, which means there would be no deportation until the case we're presenting gets resolved. However, they're not allowing me that. They rejected the stay of removal. And that's why I'm completely sure that this is reprisal against me,

that they want to deport me no matter what. I understand you're going to attend the screening of the movie at a festival in Miami? I was waiting for that festival. I missed it when it was in Utah because I wasn't given permission to travel to Utah. But I was looking forward to seeing the film here in Miami with my family. So they took that dream away from me,

the dream to see the movie with my family. And the biggest dream they're taking for me right now is to be with my grandchildren. Did you like the movie? I'd like to see it. I still have not seen it. I love the work that was done, but I haven't seen the movie.

I want to see it. So tell us more about the guards. In the movie, their attitude is very aggressive. We wanted to know if the attitude has changed or how is it towards you? Now, look, at that time, the guards were from the Gio company. Now the company has changed.

I got a new company. I don't know how to describe the local. But the attitude of the guards is the same. You know, they're always intimidating people, putting fear into them, like they're saying, we are superior, you are little. Listen, one shouting right now. Between screams and threats. One time an officer came, he was Hispanic,

and he treated the detainees badly. because he wanted them to be silent. In a space for 80 people, there are 160 people, so the noise is going to double. How can they demand silence? By any chance, do the guards know of your activism, or even the people there are at the detention center? Well, the people who are here in the detention center,

they do know about my activism because they saw me on TV, Channel 15. So when they see me, they know about the movie, the activism, and they come to me with questions. Claudio, and, an important question. Do you have any idea if you're going to get deported at the end of the month or in the coming months? Or in the next months? That's what they're trying to fight with the lawyer, with a judge, to ask immigration, why have been detained.

but I haven't heard back. So to extend the date, they said March 30th, that they were not going to take any action against me before that date. So we're holding on to that date, and the lawyers are working fast, but as I said, they're not working with us at all. They're rejecting every proposal. So I'm very worried that I will get deported on March 30. About that, I wanted to ask you,

how do you feel about that possibility, about what can happen at the end of the month? I'm always expecting for a miracle to happen, and something might happen on my behalf. I trust the skills of the lawyers, the organizations that are fighting for me. There's a lot of people involved. In general, I don't like the news, but I have to accept it. As I tell you, I'm a fighter. I fight for what I believe, and I will continue fighting until the end.

I'll use all the necessary resources to keep myself in this country. When you say that, all the resources, do you still consider protest actions like the ones in the movie, the infiltrators? Exactly. I guess you cannot tell me which? No, no, I'm going to use actions that maybe I'm not going to tell you over the phone. Okay. Have you communicated with your son, Emiliano, or with the National Immigrant Youth Alliance?

I have to go. They're kicking me out. I have to go. Claudio, much thanks for your time. And, caretie much. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Cudate much, Claudio.

After a little. Okay. Bye. Claudia Rojas, speaking from ICE detention in Miami with the New Yorker's Camila Osorio, who also translated. A spokesman for ICE told us they couldn't comment on Rojas's case. I'm David Remnick, and that's our show for today. Thanks for joining us, and please join us next time for the New Yorker Radio Hour. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Yards with additional music by Lexus. Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Boutin, Ave Cario, Rianning Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, Callalia, David Krasnow, Caroline Lester, Louis Mitchell, Sarah Nixon, Stephen Valentino, with help from Emily Mann and Jessica Henderson. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.