The New Yorker Radio Hour - Ina Garten: Cooking Is Hard; Plus an Essay from Susan Orlean

Episode Date: December 16, 2022

With the Food Network program “Barefoot Contessa,” Ina Garten became a beloved household name. Although she is a gregarious teacher and presence on television, Garten prefers to do her actual cooking alone. “Cooking’s hard for me. I mean, I do it a lot, but it’s really hard and I just love having the space to concentrate on what I’'m doing, so I make sure it comes out well.” Garten joins David Remnick to reflect on her early days in the kitchen, and to answer listener questions about holiday meals and more. Her latest book is “Go-To Dinners.” Plus, Susan Orlean joins with an installment from her column “Afterword.” She writes about the life of a Texas man who founded a rattlesnake handling business. He liked providing a service for his neighbors, and for whatever reason, he just loved rattlesnakes—a passion that proved fatal. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Ina Garten is not only a household name, she is beloved. With the help of her Food Network program, Barefoot Contessa, not to mention all those viral videos, Garten has 14 million cookbooks in print. 14 million. Her success doesn't really come, though, from pioneering recipes or being in the foodie avant-garde. It's got more to do with being a confirmed. fighting, authentic, warm personality that tells you that you too can make cockovin or a roast tenderloin,

anything. Just follow the recipe. You can do it. Ina's approach to food is classic and accessible. And her latest book, Go To Dinners, is a bestseller, as usual. Now, my wife and I have known Ina and her husband, Jeffrey Garten, the economist and chief Ina appreciator, for a good while now. And I can tell you, hand to heart, that the person you see on TV is the same one you get in person, funny, unpretentious, a smart businesswoman, and a master of every variety of chicken known to the history of heated poultry. She's the real deal. Now, I have to start out by telling you the last time I had a famous cook on the show, I may have told you this, it was Jacques Papin. And on the radio, with my laptop in the kitchen, I made crapes with him, and, you know, and

Wow. Exactly, with my wife, Esther, laughing at me in the corner of the kitchen, so we're not going to cook. We're just going to talk. We're not cooking. We'll cook in person. How's that? Exactly. I'd love to do that.

Nothing worse than having your wife laughing at you. It's a daily... Your very, very smart wife laughing at you. It's an hourly occurrence. Now, you write in the preface of this book, early in the book, you said that when you were growing up, you had dreaded dinner time. Why was it dreaded? Was the food so terrible? What was your, was it your mom that was making dinner? My mother was making dinner. My father was a ear surgeon. And my mother was very, I think now I might say that she would be diagnosed with Asperger's, didn't have relationships, and she had no interest in food. So she would get dinner on the table, but there was no joy in it. What was dinner on the table? What was it?

I had broiled chicken, canned peas. What would I say? She was a dietitian by training and didn't believe in carbohydrates, so we never had bread or potatoes or polenta or anything absolutely delicious. I mean, we didn't even have frozen vegetables. We had canned vegetables. I particularly remember Harvard Beats, one of my least favorite things in the world. And no child likes Harvard Beats.

You might develop a flavor for it. I taste for it afterwards, but not when you're 10. And it sounds like dinner was not a joyful time. It wasn't a joyful time. And my parents, particularly my father, was very stern taskmaster and would grill us about whatever was in school. He would criticize us. So when dinner was over, I had a nice knot in my stomach. And they would always want me to eat faster.

So they would say, every time your brother takes a bite, you take a bite. And I'd be like, I just can't. When is the first time you pick a meal? up a frying pan in earnest. It wasn't just when you got married later on. A hundred percent was when I got married. I was never allowed in the kitchen. So my mother never taught me how to do anything. And I mean, she didn't see any joy in it. She felt that my job was to study, and it was her job to make dinner. And I think she wasn't comfortable with me being in the same room with her. So she would always say, you go study. And so I was

in my room, my whole childhood. And I think, I think I was pretty lonely. I think that that's why now cooking for friends and Jeffrey and doing the show be my guest where I'm connecting with people is so satisfying. In other words, you like to cook with people around, not by your lonesome in the kitchen? I prefer to cook by myself. You do. And I do. Cooking's hard for me. I mean, I do it a lot, but it's really hard.

And I just love having the space to concentrate on what I'm doing, so I make sure it comes out well. cooking's hard. I mean, when you go to the butcher and you order a chicken, it's a different size every time. It's a different kind of chicken. I mean, you know, some chickens, they're allowed to add water to it. You have no idea what you're going to get. So it's, I mean, just the simplest thing is chicken can be complicated. I do find it hard.

I really, I'm not confident that it's going to come out well. And I have to say, I'm surprised when it does. I think... Do you remember the... Maybe I have high standards. Do you remember the first time you made a dinner in earnest for you and Jeffrey? Well, probably as soon as we got married, because it wasn't like we had the money to go after dinner. So when we were engaged, before we got married, I remember going out and buying Craig Claibor and the New York Times cookbook.

And I went to... What was it called? It was a store like... I think it was called Caldor. And I bought entire set of kitchen equipment. and I just was really excited about being able to cook. But I remember within the first month, I made a holla. And I remember thinking, that's what you're going to start with?

But I did. I really love things that challenge me that I think I can't do and then make them and show myself that I can do them. I get the feeling, and this is far from your first book. You've had many books before this. But Go To Dinners is a beautiful. book in a way made for Eina Garten back then? In other words, these are in some ways the least intimidating recipes you could imagine. You're almost telling the reader, you know, darling, I know you think you can't do anything, but even you can do this. It actually does come

full circle, doesn't it? Because once I've learned how to cook, and then, of course, I got mastering the art of French cooking, both volumes and worked my way through those. So I learned the French techniques from Julia Child. And I really believe in simplifying things. But what happened in the pandemic is we were also completely stressed. We didn't know what we could do, what we couldn't do. I was making a recipe every day for Instagram so people could figure out what to do with those white beans that they had in their pantry.

Three thousand pounds of white beans. Exactly. So many white beans and whatever they had. I was making recipes for my cookbook for this book. And I was cooking lunch and dinner for Jeffrey and me every single day. And by sometime around May or June, I was like in bed with the covers up over my head. And I thought, I really need to simplify. So it is true that I came full circle, but for a different reason.

No, I've admitted this to you before. But I'm now admitting it to everybody who's listening. To relax. I don't cook. I watch cooking videos. I watch you. I watch Shakapan. I watch this Seshwan guy who has, who's going 300 miles an hour, making incredible food. But I can't cook. Hold my hand and tell me what I need to know initially. If I'm having four people over, six people, whatever it is, what do I need to know? What do I not need to be nervous about? And what would you recommend I start with? I think there's one thing everybody should know how to do, which is,

a roast chicken. And I do it in all different forms. I do it with potatoes and fennel. I do it. In this book, I have a spring roast chicken or a roast chicken with spring vegetables with things like asparagus. You can put almost any kind of vegetable in a roasting pan and a chicken on top of it and put it in the oven. It's the easiest thing in the world. And the only thing you have to do is make sure you don't overcook the chicken. People get really nervous. So you think this is the easiest thing. This is the point of entry. Any kind of drive. roast chicken, or the chicken in a pot, which is just as easy as can be. You put it in a big pot with chicken stock and vegetables, and then you get saffron to give a little heat, and then Orzo,

and you've got a whole dinner all in one pot. Now, I have to ask you, I'm lucky enough to know Jeffrey, but I think for most people who watch you, they see Jeffrey at the end of your show, and he'll be saying something like, this is the best soup I've ever had, or this chicken's unbelievable or something like that. And you think to yourself, he can't possibly be this nice and this brilliant at the same time. He's just so appreciative. And I think it's one of the reasons why I love to cook, because if you cook for somebody who doesn't appreciate it, there's no satisfaction in it. I made him, one day I made him a cup of tea. And he said, oh, this is the best tea I've ever had. And I was like, Jeffrey, it's a cup of hot water and a tea bag. It was a

particularly good tea, but, I mean, still, he just, he, nothing goes by him. He really appreciates it, which I love. Now, you ran a store, you owned a store from 1978 to 1996, a long time, the barefoot contessa. And why did that hit the way it hit out in the Hamptons? It was, it was an incredible success. Um, you know, I, I thought of it as a party. I wanted, when you walked in the door, I wanted all of your senses engaged. I wanted you to smell something wonderful. I wanted you to see a wonderful display of produce, or I wanted to hear great music, but it was old-fashioned like Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra or whatever, you know, whatever was

fun to listen to. There were samples of things all over the store so you could taste things. And people would just come in just because it was fun. And I thought, if they're going to come because it's fun, they'll always come when they're hungry. And I think that's what worked. It wasn't really about the food. It was about the feeling of being in the store. It seems impossible to imagine, but there was a time, I know, that you were not as famous as you are now.

You started publishing these cookbooks, and you were hesitant about doing a television show. I mean, you got offers, I think more than one. once before you decided to go forward with it. What was your hesitation? I, you know, I didn't think anybody would want to watch me cook on TV, actually. Food Network kindly made me an offer, and I kept saying no, and they kept coming back. And there was someone there, Aline Opatut, who just kept saying, make me a better offer. And I kept saying to her, no, I just don't want to do this.

and she just kept coming back. And finally, I had heard about a show that somebody said was a really good cooking show. And it was Nigella Lawson show. Right. And unbeknownst to me, they went to London, found her producer, told me that they were coming to East Hampton like in two weeks. And I was like, whoa, whoa. I said I wasn't going to do this. And Eileen said, just to, you know, 13 shows thinking, like, how hard could that be?

And they arrived on my doorstep, and I thought, okay, let's see what we can do. And, you know, one of the things I think about in life is you've got to jump in the pond. You say no to things without really understanding. Like I said, no to Instagram before I understood what it was. And I kept saying no about TV. I was just like, I love writing cookbooks. I want to keep doing that. And I can't imagine being on TV.

It always seemed to me that the most successful ones, there was some character involved. No, Julia Child was a big character. She had personality traits that we could easily list. Graham Kerr did, all kinds of people who've done it. How do you think about that in terms of the personality you put out there? Because I have to say, being lucky enough to know you, it seems like one and the same person. I am the same person you see on TV. I found a coach who would teach me how to be on TV.

And I have no idea why I knew this, but after one session with her, I thought, that's just awful. Nothing she said made sense to me. And I thought, I just need to be myself on TV. It's the only thing that works. And I don't know why I knew that. I just knew it.

I have to say, though, I'm watching you cook, and there's a move that you do. All of a sudden, the stick and a half of butter goes into the pan, and you look up both with mischief in your eyes and a little guiltily and say, yeah, but it makes a lot of brownies. Okay. Go ahead. Do you know what I believe? I think we should eat real food.

And if it's delicious, you'll eat, it's worth cooking for it. My favorite expression is if you eat low fat, a low fat diet, it's not that you live longer. It just seems longer. Isn't that true? Now, we have some questions sent by email to you. This comes from Julie Wilson and Maureen tipping in Comer, Northern Ireland. And this question is from my neighbor, Maureen, and me, Julie, we're tuning in from Comer, which is a small village just outside of Belfast.

During COVID, our neighborhood came together into a really lovely, supportive, and fun community. We went from being neighbors to being friends. This Christmas, we would like to co-host a party for our street. our village is famous for potatoes, so we're really keen to know if Aina has any ideas on how to transform the humble spud into a delicious party food hors d'oeuvre. A potato hors d'oeuvre is interesting.

And keep in mind you're giving potato tips to Ireland. That's a ball art. Exactly. That's really daunting. You know what I would do is I'd make potato lotkas. I think that would be great. Wow. And you have a great recipe for that, I should say. I do. And what you can do is you can prepare them in advance, put them on a sheet pan and reheat them in the oven, warm them in the oven. Sounds delicious. Is that a good one?

From Alex Lewin in Berkeley, California, Deer M's Garden, about 10 years ago I read a short story in Harper's, about which I remember nothing, not the title of the author of the plot, except for a scene in which a character fishes a bay leaf out of a bowl of soup and flicks it away. and he tells his dining companion, Bay leaves are BS. Ever since then, I've been nagged by the question, are Bayleaves BS? Whenever I put them in anything, I can't tell what effect they have. Am I using them wrong?

Also, is it true that they should be kept in the freezer? Okay. I really don't know the answer to this, and I will say that I also wonder whether a bay leaf makes a difference. And there are a couple of things that I use bay leaves in, and I've always wanted to make them without the bay leaves to see if it made a difference and they never have. So I'm not sure.

This is, can I just say this is called Making News? Ina Garten calls bullshit on bay leaves. I'm with that. Now, these are questions from New York or Instagram. What to make for two people while still making it feel like a holiday and a special meal. This is from Teresa Nobri. You know what's really great is roast porkloins because they're very small. And you can marinate them and roast them really simply, serve them with like a potato and apple and fennel puree and some shaved brussels sprouts. It would be a great holiday meal. And it's not like cooking a whole ham. I have a very important question to ask.

When did Brussels sprouts go from being, as in my childhood, disgusting? I happen to know. Into my adulthood, it's like I can't wait to get more Brussels sprouts. What happened? What happened was, and I actually started this at the store in the 80s. I started roasting Brussels sprouts instead of boiling them. And they were so good because they're like crispy and, you know, they're more like French fries. They're fantastic.

So then I started, thought, well, if you can roast Brussels sprouts, maybe you can roast butternut squash. So we started roasting butternut squash and string beans. And I mean, we roasted everything. And the best part is it's the easiest thing in the world. You put whatever vegetable it is on a sheet pan, olive oil, salt and pepper, and into the oven. So on asparagus, too, you're pro roasting rather. than steaming or boiling? 100%.

I think it brings out the flavor. It caramelizes the sugars in it, and it's much more delicious. Now, here's a fantastic question from someone named Hampton's video. I don't think that's the name, but here we go. Do you ever use a microwave?

I do. I use it for every day, actually, to make oatmeal in the morning. It's a perfect thing to do. I'll use it if I'm going to melt butter. I'll use it to prep things. I mean, not a lot. It's not like I'm cooking in there.

But every morning I use it for my oatmeal. Good Irish oatmeal. Perfect. Now, this is not exactly a food question. How many scarves do you own? You always have one on. Sue Palmer. A lot.

I have drawers and drawers of scarves. She's absolutely right. I have them everywhere. I just love having a scarf around my neck. I just think it feels good. David, I was just thinking to myself, can we just do this again tomorrow? We can do it all day.

So much fun. Okay. Thank you. Ina Garten, thank you so much. So much fun to talk to you, as always, David. Thank you. Ina Garton's most recent book is called Go To Dinners. And her latest show, Be My Guest with Ina Garten, is in its second season.

Oh, and one note from the fact-checking department to Alex Lewin, who asked about Bayleaves. The short story you read in Harper's was by Lori Moore, and it's called Subject to Search in 2014. The offending bay leaf was in a dish of cuss-cus, but the fact-checker did not settle the crucial question of whether or not bay leaves are BS. Thanks for writing in, Alex. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Stick around. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

I'm David Remnick. As the year comes to an end, we've been hearing each week from the writer Susan Orlean and selections from her obit column afterward. Now, one thing about Susan, she's kind of an animal nut. In fact, her last book was a collection called Simply On Animals.

And she has that in common with her subject today, a Texas man named Eugene Delione. Rattlesnakes give most people the creeps. But there is a subset of people who find them inviting. Eugene de Leon was frequently photographed, cozying up with, and even smooching rattlesnakes. He had no fear of them at all. His interests started early.

His father, a security guard in the Texas oil fields, used to while away his shift catching snakes that wriggled by his post and would bring them home for his children to admire. The passion for snakes stuck with De Leon. He was crazy for them. His daughter Blanca Trevino told me recently, very crue. After studying at Coastal Bend College, DeLeon, who worked in the oil fields like his father, founded Snake Busters, snake handlers, an all-purpose snake enterprise. Snakes in your basement? No problem. Call snakebusters. Need snake blood for a folk remedy for cancer? Snakebusters can accommodate. The brushy fields around De Leon's home in Freer, Texas, are prime Rattler territory.

The snakes found their way onto playgrounds and into shopping centers and living rooms all the time. De Leon, who was also a volunteer firefighter and civic-minded in every way, like that he was doing something helpful in town. Trevino, his daughter, said that she would have been happy to kiss those snakes goodbye. But as soon as De Leon's son, Eugene Jr.,

was old enough, he joined Snakebusters too, marking the start of a third generation of De Leon's snake fans. De Leon's wife, Simona, however, was not an enthusiast of the whole venomous reptile thing. During the past few years, she had pressed him to hang it up, but he couldn't be budged. The capstone of every year for the Snakebusters was the freer Rattlesnake Roundup, A three-day slithering creature festival held each spring. The Roundup includes exhibitions and a pageant and competition to be named the year's rattlesnake royalty. De Leon was in his glory there,

demonstrating his rattlers and selling snake-skin doodads in rattlesnake meat. It really does taste like chicken, Trevino said. If you cook it right, it's delicious. It might surprise you to know that, as terrifying as rattlesnakes are, only a small number of people are killed by them each year. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in the United States, between 7,000 and 8,000 people are bitten annually by venomous snakes. But on average, there are only five fatalities. Among the unlucky ones when it comes to venomous snakes are researchers who must handle them frequently and get bitten more than once. Historically, quite a few rattlesnake victims have been members of Christian sex who believe that holding a snake in your bare hands is called for in the Bible, specifically Mark chapter 16 verse 18.

It's considered a demonstration of religious faith, and if they are bitten, they count on divine intervention rather than medical help. The practice has killed or injured so many people that it is now illegal in several states. On occasion, someone will sit on a rattlesnake hidden in the brush or surprise one in a pumpkin patch and not get medical treatment quickly enough. Usually, though, rattlesnakes have a live-and-let-live attitude and are far more likely to wriggle away from humans than to hunt them down and kill them. But being a snake buster required a lot of face time with rattlers, and the risk was consequently amplified.

Four years ago, at the rattlesnake roundup, Eugene Jr. was bitten and ended up having to have a thumb amputable. De Leon himself had also been bitten in the past. In recent years, De Leon began to mull over whether he ought to retire or at least cut back a bit. But when his wife Simone died last year, he was crushed. And according to Trevino, keeping busy with the snakes was what kept him alive. According to his sister Monica, though, De Leon had decided that perhaps this year's rattlesnake rounder,

up would be his last. It would be his 20th appearance, so maybe the fact that it was a round number made it seem fitting. Everything was going as planned, until one of his demonstrations. No one is quite sure what happened, but the large rattler he was holding squirmed out of his hands and repeatedly bit him on the shoulder and back. He was helicoptered to Corpus Christiast. He was helicoptered to Corpus Christi, for intensive care, but he succumbed to the bites. Trevino believes that he wouldn't hold a grudge against the snake, and that if he had to do it again, even knowing the risks, he'd still be handling them.

Wherever he is now, she said, he's doing the same thing. Susan Orlean, her essay, A Man Who Loved Rattlesnakes, comes from her column afterward. You can find it at New Yorker.com. I'm David Remnick. Thanks so much for listening today. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tunei, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Breda Green, Calilea, David Krasnow, Louis Mitchell, and Gauphin and Putabwelle. Along with Adam Howard, Jeffrey Masters, and Max Bolton. And we had assistance from Mike Cutchman, Meher, Batia and James Napoli. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.