The New Yorker Radio Hour - Jane Mayer on the G.O.P.’s Post-Trump Game

Episode Date: November 13, 2020

The President’s fantastical allegations about “illegal ballots” are being indulged by quite a number of prominent Republicans in Washington, who have declined to acknowledge Joe Biden as President-elect. If Republicans in some key state legislatures go further and appoint electors who disregard their states’ popular votes, the electoral chaos would be disastrous. To understand how the politicians may proceed, David Remnick spoke with Jane Mayer, who has written extensively about today’s GO.P. and the forces that drive it. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. It should come as no surprise at all that Donald Trump, having lost the 2020 election to Joe Biden, is going to do the transition his way, chaotically, vengefully, and in a state of utter denial. And we all get to come along for the ride. But the president's fantasies about so-called illegal business. ballots are being indulged by a great number of prominent Republicans. With the possibility of electoral chaos to come where we go from here remains a hugely open question. I called up Jane Mayor to ask her

about some of the reports that are coming out of the White House. Jane's written extensively for the New Yorker about today's GOP and the forces that drive it. Jane, how are you? Good. Glad to be with you. So Jane, as we talk on a Wednesday morning, what's the mood and Washington, is there a sense that a peaceful transition of power is still possible? So one week out from the election, I think what we're seeing is a mood of sort of elation among Biden supporters kind of souring towards a mood of some nervousness that there still has not been a concession from Trump and a sense that the Republican establishment not just Trump alone is now digging in for a fight.

So what is the implications of that? What can that mean at its worst? Oh, I mean, I think it's incredibly dangerous. That's what we're all, you know, worrying about is that there's a possibility that somehow this could really disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. So where could this lead? Well, it seems like the law is quite clear. The legal cases so far have gotten nowhere. But the problem is that the politics itself seems like it's getting rougher and nastier.

At this point, something like 75% of Republicans are saying that they don't think the election was fair. And what are the implications of that? What are the practical implications? Because if these lawsuits fail and the law is clear, what is Donald Trump trying to arouse? Support for himself for 2024? maybe it has implications in Georgia and the Senate race. What is the motivation here? Well, I mean, when it comes to Trump, I think you've got him, you know,

not just running for re-election during this last campaign. He was running from the law. He's going to have to face potential prosecution from the Manhattan District Attorney. He's got something like $300 million in debts that he has to pay off in the next four years. He's got a case with the IRS where he, may wind up owing $100 million in back taxes. So he's got a lot of his own personal difficulties that make him want to try to hold on to power in any way that he can. Well, I understand his motivations. And what I don't understand is Mitch McConnell, who is an institutionalist, no matter

what you think of his politics, has said that the president has every right to look into allegations, but to be clear, there is zero evidence anywhere for any of these allegations of fraud. So what is Mitch McConnell up to? What does he want? Well, first of all, I would maybe take issue with the idea that he is an institutionalist. That is how he likes to be seen. But he's actually shattered so many norms during the period that he's been a majority leader that I think maybe it's worth reconsidering that position. That's totally fair.

But in this particular case, there's one thing that Mitch McConnell, has always cared about more than anything else, almost since he was in high school, he has wanted to be the majority leader of the U.S. Senate. And what he wants to do is hold on to that majority, keep the Republican majority. And as we know, that comes down to one state at this point, two senators, two Senate races in Georgia. So I think the smart way to understand what's going on with Mitch McConnell is he is making a play to try to win Georgia for those two Republicans.

Republican senators to help them out by riling up the base. So what is the likelihood? They play out this psychodrama until the elections in Georgia and then stand down? I think at least until then. I can imagine that even after, I assume he will have to leave the White House and move back down probably to Mar-a-Lago, that Trump will keep litigating, keep trying to keep this thing alive and talk as he has started in the last few days about running again in 2024. The New Yorker's Jane Mayer, our conversation continues minimum. It was reported that the White House instructed government agencies to block cooperation with the Biden transition team. What are the implications here for the transition for Joe Biden and even for national security in the coming months?

Well, I mean, I think there are a lot of concerns. It's probably lucky that Joe Biden has been in the White House before. He knows his way around. But the concerns are that this is a dangerous period anyway when a hugely powerful country shifts its whole power apparatus. They need to turn over very important information about national security. They've blocked Biden from being able to have access to the president's daily brief. which usually are shared after an election. These are the intelligence briefings. There's also concern that because President Trump just fired the Secretary of Defense, and it seems to be putting loyalists in right around him, that they may be trying to, you know, sort of try some riskier final policies in the final days before the transfer of power. What does Donald Trump want to sneak in under the wire, if that's the motivation?

Are there policies that he wants to get passed? Are there personnel moves that he wants to get accomplished? Or is this about reputation and the future of Trumpism? Well, they're related. One of the things people think he may be trying to do is there's been a push in his camp to get rid of Gina Haspel, the director of the CIA. And there's also a push. to get rid of Christopher Ray, the head of the FBI. And why would they want to do that? Because Trump has been frustrated. He wants the FBI and the CIA to put out information

that makes it look like he was the target of a witch hunt. He's trying to put out information that supports various conspiracy theories that make him look good. You know, I don't use this term really, I hope not inadvisedly, but this has the makings, or at least the sketches,

of, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but some kind of coup d'etat. Is that alarmist? I hope so. I think it's, you know, it's not completely out of the question, and that's why it's so worrisome. I mean, the Biden camp seems to be quite confident. Things will go smoothly. They're moving ahead with the transition.

They're expressing very little doubt or worse. and they, you know, they seem to know what they're doing. I'm sorry, but this is craziness. This is craziness that the president of the United States, we have to monitor his emotional tantrums and peculiarities, to put it mildly. And the whole country is held hostage to them. It's crazy. It is, but you've got to understand the reason it's happening is not just because Trump, on his own,

is throwing a tantrum. It's because he has such a connection by now through such an infrastructure of disinformation and right-wing media and everything else that is controlling all of these supporters. And it's the supporters that the Republican leaders are afraid of. I mean, face it, the Republican leadership is thinking about getting reelected instead of thinking about the entire country. You can read Jane Mayer's article, Why Trump Can't Afford to Lose, and everything else she's written for us at New Yorker.com. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. Hope you enjoyed the show.

And I hope you'll join us next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Boutin, Ave Cario, Riannon, Corby, Calalia, David Krasnow, Caroline Lester, Gauphin and Putubuele, Louis Mitchell, Michelle Moses, and Stephen Valentino. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.