The New Yorker Radio Hour - Joaquin Castro: “Americans Don’t Know Who Latinos Are”

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

On Tuesday, the U.S. Government Accountability Office issued a preliminary report on the long-standing underrepresentation of Latinos in the media. While most people consider Hollywood a relatively liberal industry, “the system as a whole is actually quite regressive and . . . exclusionary,” Joaquin Castro, the representative of a Texas district that includes much of San Antonio, says. “I’m convinced that Americans don’t know who Latinos are,” Castro tells Stephania Taladrid. Unlike Black Americans, who are linked in the white imagination to the civil-rights era and other historical turning points, Castro says, non-Latinos “don’t associate us with any particular time period in American history. They don’t know who among us has contributed to the nation’s prosperity or success. And they have no sense where to place us within American society.” What Castro calls a “void” in America’s narrative gets filled by pernicious stereotypes of Latinos as criminals and “illegals.” “There has been now, for several years at least, this dangerous nexus between representation, portrayal, and the abuse of Latino stereotypes . . . by politicians who abuse them for their own political gain. And, in that dangerous mix, in its worst form, you get what happened in El Paso in August of 2019, where a madman drove ten hours and killed twenty-three people because he considered them Hispanic invaders.” Castro suggests that states and local governments should do more to hold the media accountable, for example, by tying tax breaks for entertainment production to improvements on diversity. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. The Government Accountability Office this week released a report on Latino representation in the media in entertainment and news, and it's pretty damning. One of the congressional members who requested that report was Joaquin Castro of the 20th District of Texas, a state that's 40% Latino.

Castro was looking with the Congressional Hispanic Caucus at what lawmakers can do to help move the needle on this issue, and he spoke with the New Yorker's Stefanya Teladreid. Congressman, we're here to talk about an issue that you've been fighting for over the years, and that is the missing Latino narrative in our society. To begin with, I'd like us to talk about education, which one could argue is really at the heart of it. You grew up in San Antonio, a city that has an incredibly rich Latino heritage, and yet it seems like Latino stories were barely present in your school's curriculum.

So take us back in time, if you will. Who are the Latinos you remember learning about? And how did you fill that void in the narrative over the years? I see this as a foundational problem for the Latino community and other communities in the United States that we have been left out of much of the telling of American history and our state histories, including in my home state of Texas. And so when I was growing up, the only Latinos, in this case, mostly Mexican-Americans that I remember, are Mexicans actually, that I remember learning about, were the defenders of the Alamo.

And really not much else. Maybe Henry Cisneros, who was mayor of San Antonio when I was in school, but it was a very sparse presence in the telling of American history. Texas history. And that's in a state that's now nearly 40% Latino. Right. And that has been a pervasive problem, not just in Texas, but throughout the country. I'm convinced that Americans don't know who Latinos are. They don't associate us with any particular time period in American history. They don't know who among us has contributed to the nation's prosperity or success. And, and And they have no sense where to place us within American society. You have two children who, if I'm not mistaken, are five and seven.

Is that right? Yeah, that's right. How does your experience in school so far compare to yours? Do you see any reason for hope? What are you seeing now with the new generations? I think it's gotten a little bit better over the years, but it's still not, we're still not at a place. where you have representation that's commensurate in a state like Texas

with the huge Latino role in terms of the economy of the state, the culture of the state, and how meaningful Latinos have been to the development of Texas. And now there's a counter movement against ethnic studies and critical race theory. And so it makes me wonder in the coming years, whether there will be any improvement in terms of representation in the telling of histories. And of course, schools are important narrative creating institutions, but they're not the only ones.

There's Hollywood, there's the news media, corporate America, the government, so on and so forth. And it's no secret that there's little Latino representation across the board. I remember after last year's election, Latino victory reported that only 1% of local and federal elected officials were Latino. I suspect that that number is slightly higher now, but not nearly where it should be, considering that there's more than 60 million of us in this country and that we now represent the largest minority voting group. And I wonder, as one of the few and really most influential Latino politicians in the country,

what are some of the challenges you faced in, raising the issue of representation in the news media in Hollywood and beyond and demanding more accountability from Washington. Well, in addition to the influences that you mention about education, I think media and particularly Hollywood, I think, is the main image-defining and narrative-creating institution in American society. In the way that it tells stories and whose stories get to. told and who it allows to be part of the storytelling, it affects how Americans see each other, including how Americans see Latinos and how we see ourselves.

And the numbers in terms of representation and portrayal of Latinos, the numbers in terms of representation are terrible in the media industry, and whether it's Hollywood or hard news. for example in entertainment Latinos make up around 3 and 4% of folks in front of and behind the camera so we're woefully underrepresented both in front of and behind the camera

and that affects the stories that come out of Hollywood and how they're told and oftentimes it's led to very negative portrayals and stereotypes Latinos as always as drug dealers, as criminals, as the dregs of society, as illegals. And it affects how other Americans see our community and how our own children see themselves. And part of the reason that I got involved in this issue is because there has been now for several years, at least, this dangerous nexus between representation, portrayal, and the abuse of Latino stereotypes that come out of the media,

the abuse of those by politicians who abuse them for their own political gain. And in that dangerous mix, in its worst form, you get what happened in El Paso, Texas in August of 2019, where a madman drove 10 hours and killed 23 people because he considered them, quote, unquote, Hispanic invaders to Texas. And so all of this represents for me, a very dangerous void in narrative. And it really came to a head in May of 2020 when the Congressional Hispanic Caucus had a meeting

with publishing executives. And there were about 30 of us on the call. And I had a chance to ask a question of one of the CEOs of one of the largest publishing companies in the country that publishes textbooks for schools. And I asked him a very simple question. I asked him whether he can name three Latino. or Latinos, who had had a significant impact in American history. And this very intelligent, ambitious, accomplished man thought about it for a few seconds,

and he finally said, no, I can't. And he wasn't meaning to be rude to me. He wasn't dismissing me. We were having an earnest discussion, all of us. But I think the unfortunate thing is that if you ask that question, I'm convinced, of 90% of Americans. you would probably get the same answer. This notion of invaders, you know, in the context of the shooting in El Paso, particularly,

you know, in a state where Latinos have been there for generations, centuries, right? And so, as you said, the shooting is the deadliest representation of what these stereotypes and this gaps in the narrative kind of entail, right? And going back to the meeting that you referred to just now, so you've met with studios, on agencies, publishers, major media outlets. What has shocked you from those conversations over the years? And as a Mexican-American, what does it like to be in those rooms demanding answers? Well, I've tried to use my platform in Congress first to get in the room because unfortunately,

these studios and corporations over the years have sometimes locked out advocates who have worked for many years to change. these dynamics and have ignored them or cast them aside, tried not to take them seriously. And so I knew being in Congress that we could get in the room and push this issue. And especially after what happened in El Paso, I wanted to do that. And I think for the most part, the industry is at a point where it acknowledges that there's a deep problem. And so our first thing we were trying to get out of these folks is transparency, is to get a clear picture of the exact numbers on representation, for example, at a particular studio or

publication or media outlet. And then from there, once someone is transparent with the state of affairs, then moving on to working with them to hold them accountable and to setting targets for improvement of that representation. And some have been better on both those scores than others. Do you feel that changes materializing? Have you been in touch, for example, with the publisher that you mentioned again, you know, who is doing this right? Yeah, I do think that there has been more change, particularly over the last year and a half. I will say that the murder of George Floyd was a reckoning for corporate America, including the media, in terms of how they portray. and how they cover different communities.

And I think things have accelerated not only for the African-American community after that, but also for the Latino community and hopefully others as well. And, you know, it's hard to find any particular company that is doing an excellent job. You don't really find people

who are beating the numbers. In other words, Latinos are 18% of American society or 19%. and the company, you know, employs 19% of Latinos in front of and behind the camera, for example, or as journalists. But there are some that are succeeding and committed to change more than others. Representative Joaquin Castro of Texas, speaking with Stefania Taladryde, more in a moment. Talking about data, tell us about the two reports on the underrepresentation of Latinos that the government accountability office will issue. Can you share any of its main findings with us? Yeah, I mean, we've just gotten a

preliminary sketch of what their overall findings will show, but it's clear in the title of their report that Latinos are underrepresented in American media and that there has been almost no change since 2014. And where you do have more of a concentration of Latinos, it's in the, in service sector positions within the media industry, rather than as anchors, for example, or as directors in film or television. And so it remains deeply problematic, this challenge of American media really committing to change. And the irony about some of it is that Hollywood, for example, considers it, and I think most Americans consider it a liberal place and a liberal industry. But there's a central irony there. I think there are individuals in Hollywood who are individually progressive,

but the system as a whole is actually quite regressive and pretty conservative. And Hollywood is actually very exclusionary. In fact, at least from the data I've seen, Hollywood is less diverse than the oil and gas industry in Texas. And so it's got a long way to go in terms of self-reflection, but also in terms of moving towards actual change and meaningful change. Right. And it's striking to see that there's been very, very little change in the past few years, but that actually the numbers for the Latinos who work in the service sector have actually increased, right? That's the only figure that seems to be changing over time. No, that's right. And Latinos are still being left out of what many see as the main role,

as the front and center roles, the decision-making positions, the C-suite positions, where somebody could really get in there and affect wider change within an organization. And what can we expect from the report that will come out in the spring of next year? What's the difference between both? What will you begin looking at? This is kind of what they've released so far, a thumbnail sketch, but it's going to go into much more depth in individual media parts, in print media, in entertainment, in broadcasting. media. And so I'm looking forward to that much more comprehensive report. And also to making the

connection about how Congress and people in government can take a more active role in helping to change and move the media industry along. You know, this is an industry that benefits incredibly from different kinds of tax breaks in production tax credits in states like California and New Mexico and Georgia. And so I pose the question as a policymaker, at what point if I represent a constituency, for example, in San Antonio, that is 64% Latino, at what point if an industry comes forward to me and asks for a tax break in whatever form it may take, a tax credit, tax incentive, at what point do I have to look at that industry and say, you know, I've got a population that's 64% of a group that you're basically excluding. from participating in your industry, why in the world would I ask the people I represent to subsidize their own exclusion by giving you a tax break? And so we've been working with the National Hispanic State Legislators and others to get state legislators and members of Congress and really elected officials across the board

to get them more aware of what's going on in the industry so that they can be more discerning when the media industry, mostly Hollywood, but other components of the media industry, come forward and ask for tax breaks from their constituents. And it is my understanding that both Illinois and New Jersey are already doing that. In other words, they've kind of found a way to effectively tie tax incentives to workplace diversity, which is a big challenge, right? But at the end of the day, as you pointed out, underrepresentation comes with the cost. I mean, I remember seeing this report that UCLA put together the Hollywood

Diversity Report. And they found that more diverse casts did not only earn more at the box office, they also generated larger streaming audiences, right? And so in addition to the importance of data, accountability, transparency, and the way those can lead to change, as you pointed out, I think there are also very important incentives that ought to be addressed. No, that's absolutely right. And I think there's a few oddities here. One, as you mentioned, is that it's been shown now on many occasions that more diverse casts actually lead to greater box office success. And so you would think that the streamers and the traditional broadcasters and the cable companies, they would all move in that direction.

and it's happening, but it's happened pretty slowly and especially slowly for Latinos, who continue to be woefully underrepresented. And then the second piece of that is that usually when you're excluded from something, it's because by a company, it's because they make the argument that you really aren't their market. In other words, you aren't the people buying their thing. Well, what's weird here is that it's actually the exact opposite. Latinos over-index as purchasers of movie tickets, this pandemic period, obviously notwithstanding,

but they over-index their population as purchasers of movie tickets and also over-index as social media consumers and as streaming consumers. So you would think that all the incentives are there for the companies, both on the success of diversity films and television and streaming projects, and then also in terms of their existing consumers, you would think that the forces, the incentives are there for them to actually change,

but it hasn't happened the way you would expect it to. Right, right. There was another interesting report, I think, that McKenzie put out, and it put a figure on the loss that studios were incurring for the lack of black talent, and I think it was around $10 billion, which is just insane. So absolutely, there's really no excuse for that.

And, you know, this entire conversation makes me think about the African-American experience in this country. You know, I recently came across a beautiful, beautiful piece written by Hilton Alps in the 90s, in which he argues that the subject of blackness has taken a strange and unsatisfying journey through American thought, because blackness has almost always had to explain itself to a largely white audience in order to be heard and because it has generally been assumed to have only one story to tell. And I think one can argue that the subject of Latinidad continues to take a strange and unsatisfying journey through American thought and that Latinos need to be at the forefront of the change. And for that to happen, we need to figure out how to create a common and united identity

to fight for representation. And so I wonder in your mind, Congressman, how do you envision that identity? Well, I think you're right. I mean, I think that, you know, the African Americans in Hollywood, their story was confined to a few different stories, the story of slavery and the story of civil rights. And for the longest time, there was not much else beyond that. And it's really only recently where you see movies like Hidden Figures, for example, and other movies where you finally see the African-American story beyond only those two contexts that I think Hollywood confined it to for many years.

With Latinos, I think one of the fundamental challenges is that Hollywood doesn't know where to place us. They don't associate you with any period in American history. and so the thing that you're often reduced to is a stereotype. And that's what gets played over and over and over and over. And ultimately there is this pernicious thing that happens where even the Latino talent as producers as creators, they start to pitch those kinds of projects

that are sometimes stereotypical because that's the only thing that will sell. That's the only thing that will be bought or purchased and it becomes this very vicious cycle. So in terms of our identity, it's not, as you mentioned earlier, it's not just American media. It's also our education system,

which is, you know, in many ways, a different and deeply rooted issue. But there are different things that have to change, not just in media, but also in American education and society, I think to fully overcome this issue, and for America to understand the Latino identity, right? And that identity is also varied.

It's varied across people who've come here from different nations or in the case of... Different times. Different times, that's right, in different waves of migration. In the case of Mexican Americans, some families that were already here when California or Texas or New Mexico became part of the country. And so it's a, you know, in that way, a complex identity. It certainly is. It certainly is. And I think that for us as Latinos, we really need to figure out what that common and united identity is because we're stronger together. There's no doubt about that.

Oh, absolutely. Thank you for being here with us today. Oh, thank you. Representative Joaquin Castro represents the 20th Congressional District of Texas. And you can read Stefania Teladrid on politics in the U.S. and in Latin America, Spain, and much more at New Yorker.com. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts,

with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Boutin, Avae Carrillo, Riannon-Corbi, Calaliyah, David Krasnow, Gauphin and Putuguele, Louis Mitchell, Michelle Moses, and Stephen Valentino. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Trurina Endowment Fund.