The New Yorker Radio Hour - Kelela Reinvents R. & B., and Sally Yates Gets Fired

Episode Date: October 23, 2018

When the acting Attorney General Sally Yates wouldn’t defend the so-called Muslim travel ban, she was promptly sacked—“before it was fashionable to be fired” in the Trump Administration, Jeffrey Toobin says.  Yates, who served in the Justice Department during the Bush and Obama Administrations, talks with Toobin at the 2018 New Yorker Festival, about the impact of Trump on her career and on American politics. The singer Kelela reinvents R. & B. with influences from jazz to trip-hop and electronica, and she performs a live set at the festival accompanied by the producer and d.j. Loric Sih.     New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Land Rover. With a new Land Rover as your companion, you'll see Adventure wherever you go. Visit your local Land Rover retailer for special offers on the 2019 Rangerover. Adventure, it's yours for the taking. Land Rover, above and beyond. From One World Trade Center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of the New Yorker and WNYC Studios. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour.

I'm David Remnick. Earlier this month at the New Yorker Festival, our weekend-longer. bonanza of interviews and live events of all kinds, Sally Yates sat down with a legal analyst Jeffrey Tubin. Yates is a former deputy attorney general and she served under Republican and Democratic presidents, but now she's emerged as a prominent critic of the Trump administration. And her name is being whispered as a possible candidate for high office. Now, that's a possibility she usually downplays, but she hasn't shut it down entirely. Here's Jeffrey Toobin, a staff writer at The New Yorker with Sally Yates.

Sally was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia. She went to the University of Georgia. She went to the University of Georgia Law School. And in 1989, she became an assistant U.S. attorney in the city of Atlanta. She prosecuted a lot of big cases, including Eric Rudolph, who was the white supremacist who bombed the 1986 Olympics. And in 2010, President Obama appointed Sally, the U.S. attorney in the U.S. attorney in the in the Northern District of Georgia, which is Atlanta.

And in 2015, she was confirmed as Deputy Attorney General of the United States. On January 20th, 2017, briefly but eventfully, she became the Attorney General of the United States, and that's where our story is going to start. January 20th, 2017, where were you? What happened? Well, you're right, I was serving as Deputy Attorney General, and there is a tradition at the Department of Justice that in the transition time in administrations, the Deputy Attorney General, the prior administration serves as the acting AG for the incoming administration to maintain continuity. You know, it's important in any agency, particularly DOJ, but there's another tradition as well. Which is? Nothing happens during that time.

My cheapest staff told me I would have nothing to do, so there would be plenty of time for, in her words, long, boozy lunches. Okay, on January 24th, four days later, Michael Flynn, the incoming national security advisor, was interviewed by the FBI. The next day, the 25th, the FBI came to you. God, this seems like a lifetime. I know, I know. It's ancient history, but trust me. Yeah, okay. Well, an issue had arisen with respect to sanctions that President Obama had imposed

and that actually had strong bipartisan support sanctions against the Russians based on their interference in our election. And it was very strange that despite the imposition of these sanctions, the Russians didn't do anything in response. And so the intel community was trying to figure. that out. And in the course of that, discovered that Mike Flynn, who was going to be the incoming national security advisor, had been having discussions with Mr. Kisliak, who was the Russian ambassador, essentially imploring him not to do anything in response to those sanctions. But then the situation

got a lot worse because people in the administration, starting with Sean Spicer and others and ultimately culminating of Vice President Pence, went out and were telling the American people that there had been no such discussions. We knew, because we had recordings of these conversations, that we weren't the only ones who knew that General Flynn was providing false information ostensibly to people in the administration who were then providing false information to the American people. We weren't the only ones who knew that. The Russians knew that, too.

And because this had become such a big public thing, this is precisely the kind of information. They would love to be able to hold over the head of the National Security Advisor, which made him potentially compromise. Compromised. It's a blackmail. So what did you do? What happened next? So I contacted Don McGahn, who, White House Council, and told him that I needed to come see him right away, told him what we had learned, that, you know, the vice president had been on Face the Nation and is saying, you know, I've talked to General Flynn personally, and he has assured me that there were no conversations about sanctions. So you got the VP out there saying this stuff. So we told Mr. McGahn how we knew that it wasn't true, how we happened to have recordings of these conversations and why we thought it was a problem.

And you go see him a second time on January 27th? Yeah, he asked me to come back. And was that different or the same? Or what? It was a little different in the sense that he was a bit more combative, I guess I would say, in this discussion. And, you know, I've testified before this, sort of one of his first questions was, what's it to the Department of Justice if one White House official lies to another? And what did you make of that? Well, I tried to explain to him that it was a whole lot more than just one White House official lying to another, which, God, I would hope he would be concerned about anyway,

but that it was more than that, that the underlying conduct here, the General Flynn having these discussions to begin with is problematic, but beyond that, again, it's the issue of compromise that the Russians know this, it provides potential leverage, and this is a problem. And we also thought, you know, that Vice President Pence was entitled to know

that the stuff that he was saying when he stood, you know, in front of the public, that that wasn't true. So we were trying to help them. So your second meeting with Don McGahn is January 27th. Also on January 27th, an executive order is issued. Banning travel from seven Muslim majority countries. Did you know anything about that until it was issued?

No, and that's the remarkable thing. I'm sitting right there in Don McGahn's office, talking to him at length. and he doesn't tell me that the president at this point has already signed an executive order, as you said, banning immigration from these countries, and that the Department of Justice is going to have to be in court the very next morning defending this. So how did you find out about the travel ban? I was in the car. I was literally in the car on the way to the airport, and I get a call.

I was able to keep one aide with me, one assistant, my principal deputy, the top deputy, the whole time. And so Matt calls me and he says, after you left, you know, I went online, I was reading the New York Times. And it looks like President Trump has issued some sort of travel ban. We spent the weekend trying to get our arms around and communicating with the White House of what is it that you're trying to do. And by Monday morning, I was told that we would have to take a position on the constitutionality of the travel ban the next morning in a case. So we convened everybody in my conference room and spent a very long time in there, talking through what the challenges were, what the White House position was in terms of the scope of the travel ban. We talked about

the different challenges both constitutionally and statutorily and otherwise that had been filed. And at the end of that conversation, I was not satisfied. that it was lawful or constitutional. And what troubled me beyond that was that it became imminently clear that to defend the constitutionality of this, I was going to have to send Department of Justice lawyers in to take the position that this travel ban

that applied just to Muslim majority countries had absolutely nothing to do with religion. And this was in the face of all of the president's statements that he had made, both on the campaign trail and after he had been elected. And that did not seem like the truth to me. But isn't it usually the job of the Department of Justice to defend actions of the administration,

even if you personally would not have issued that order? You're the president's, the executive branch is lawyers. Right. So why wasn't that good enough for you to say, I'm going to defend this? Well, it wasn't just that I disagreed with this on a policy ground. Perhaps the appropriate thing then to do would be to resign if you can't be part of that, but not direct the department not to defend it.

But here's what's different, is that I happen to believe no litigate should go into court and make an argument that's not grounded in truth. But the Department of Justice, I mean, if DOJ stands for anything, it's supposed to stand for what is true and what is just. So what did you do? I knew that I personally couldn't be part of defending this and arguing something that wasn't grounded in truth. But, you know, I thought about, well, maybe the thing to do is resign.

And that would have protected my personal integrity. I wouldn't have been part of this. But I wasn't like just the head of the civil division or some other component of the department, I was the acting Attorney General of the United States, and I felt like I had a responsibility to protect not just my personal integrity, but the integrity of the Department of Justice as well.

And I thought back to my confirmation hearing when there were some senators, including Senator Sessions, who they were all over me at my confirmation hearing about what I would do if the preemptive, president asked me to do something that was unlawful or wrong, and I think Senator Sessions said, you know, even if it's just something that would bring disrepute to the Department of Justice, you know, you're going to be asked to do that, and will you say no? You know, none of them

were asking me, will you resign? They were asking me, will you say no? And they were right about that. It wasn't my responsibility in that position, I think, to resign. I think it was my responsibility to say no. So how did you say no? But I mean, it wasn't like a public statement. It was just a communication. No, we had both. We had, there were communications going on at levels below me and between me and Mr. McGahn. And I issued the directive to the department. And then what happened? I was fired.

You were fired by Donald Trump before it was fashionable. Fired by Donald Trump. Did that surprise you? How did you think this story was going to end once you said you weren't? weren't going to allow the tribal ban to be defended? Look, I certainly recognized there was a very real possibility, I would say probability, that I would be fired in this context. But I hoped that maybe there was a chance that by doing this,

that would cause them to step back and take a breath and look at what they were doing. And more, okay, I know. Everybody's laughing. It's impolite to laugh at the United States. It seems kind of silly now, doesn't it? But, you know, I did harbor this hope that maybe

they would step back. They would have the kind of process, they would get the kind of input. There would be real discussion about this. I had spent 27 years at the Department of Justice. I loved that place. I did

not want to have the period on my service there being fired. What's your assessment of the whole series of events? I suppose you could say that the president had made a campaign promise, and he was making good on that promise, but beyond the fact that I believe that particularly the first one was unlawful and unconstitutional, I think it's absolutely the antithesis of who we are as a country.

We're listening to Sally Yates, a longtime Justice Department official, who was the acting attorney general at the start of the Trump administration. Sally Yates spoke with Jeffrey Tubin at the New York Festival. Now, as you mentioned, the travel ban was revised once. It was revised twice. The courts had struck down each of the versions, including the third and final version, until it went to the Supreme Court, which upheld it five to four. What's your view of the travel ban in its final form

and of the Supreme Court's decision about it? You know, I haven't studied travel ban three the same way that I did the first one. You know, I still, despite the other revisions of, you know, taking out the preference for Christians and throwing in a couple of, you know, non-Muslim majority, countries, despite the fact that, you know, they made some changes. You know, I am still troubled by the animus that I believe infected the first as well as the final travel ban. And we've had this

paradoxical situation since Jeff Sessions has been Attorney General, where he has been, in the policy areas, you talk about, very much advancing the Trump agenda. At the same time, the president has been just beating the hell out of him in public. What do you make of that? I mean, what, what, what, what do you make of that? What's up with that? Yeah, what's up with that? Thank you.

You know, I mean, I think he clearly has been trying to humiliate him into resigning. I mean, that, you know, that's been going on for so long now and, like, doesn't even make the news anymore. But when it became clear, I think that Attorney General Sessions was not going to resign. Now he seems determined to undermine the legitimacy of the department and the FBI and anybody else who is involved with the Russia probe, I believe, to delegitimize any findings from that probe. It's certainly elevating himself and being willing to tear down critical democratic institutions. for self-protection. What about the role of Rod Rosenstein?

Rod Rosenstein definitely has raised the profile of Deputy Attorney General's. You thought you were famous. Rod Rosenstein is maybe the most famous lawyer in America. He is, because Attorney General Sessions is recused, he is the supervisor of the Mueller investigation. How do you think Rosenstein has handled that? I think he's done a really good job of that. I think, you know...

You've known Rosenstein. Yeah, I knew him back when we were U.S. attorneys together in the Obama administration, and so I've known Rod for a long time. And look, I know everybody for a while was so focused on making sure that we protect Robert Mueller. And goodness knows, I think we need to protect Bob Mueller. But it's equally as important to protect Rod Rosenstein right now because he really has control over what ultimately happens in this investigation. I mean, in fact, the report that Mueller writes doesn't go to Congress, it goes to the deputy,

it goes to his supervisor, who is the deputy attorney general. So you could have a deputy attorney general who receives the report and says, thank you very much, puts it in a drawer, and that's the end of the story. And that certainly seems to be the course that our president would think that that person should take. Well, it does seem like,

I mean, the president has all but written on a wall that he's going to fire the Attorney General after the midterms. Do you think he's going to fire Rosenstein, too? You know, far be it from me to get in Donald Trump's head. You know, he's walked them both up to the guillotine multiple times now, only to then pull back. So it's hard to know if it's one or the other, or he does it in a swoop or neither, and he just continues to torture them. It's kind of hard to know. It's whatever I think he thinks will be best for him. The president appoints the Attorney General.

Is he the president's lawyer? Is he the people's lawyer? What is the role and what's the relationship? What should it be? Because it's not a simple thing. No, and I get that a lot of people might look and say, look, the Department of Justice is part of the executive branch, just like the Department of Agriculture or Commerce or any of the other agencies.

And you answer to the president. you're the president's lawyer. That is so not true. And I remember, actually, when I first became U.S. attorney, and we all went to the White House for what was essentially a photo op with Eric Holder, Attorney General then. And, you know, we're all lined up in the bleachers in the east room there for the president to come in.

And, you know, he comes in, and he looked at us there and said, look, I have appointed each and every one of you, and I know you're going to do a great job, but there's only one thing you need to remember, and that is, you don't represent me. You represent the people of the United States. And as long as you remember that, you're going to do your job, and everything's going to be okay. That's so 2009. Yeah. Yeah. Let me read you a tweet from President Trump, which relates a little bit of to the criminal justice dimension.

Very sad that the FBI missed all the many signals sent out by the Florida school shooter. This was the Parkland shoot in the high school. This is not acceptable. They are spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign. There is no collusion. Get back to the basics and make us all proud.

I know you're... It's just... You can't be at a loss for word. It's the New Yorker Festival. Sickening? I mean, he's taking a tragedy where children were killed, and he is using that tragedy to attack an investigation of his own campaign. What effect do you think the kind of criticism of DOJ, the criticism in the FBI, has day-to-day? Well, let me say what effect I don't think it has first.

I don't think it impacts the substantive decisions that are being made by the line prosecutors and the line agents there. Folks having confidence in DOJ and the FBI, that has real-life consequences. How so? How so? Agents go knocking on doors to try to find witnesses or others to provide information in cases when you are sowing that kind of distrust. That has a real impact on public safety when juries are sitting in trials. and are hearing testimony from FBI agents, and they're thinking about what their president has said,

about how, you know, they're liars and all, you know, part of a deep state trying to undermine this administration. That can't help but have an impact there. And I think that, you know, the public's confidence in our criminal justice system is essential for that system to be able to work. And that, to me, is one of the great, tragedies of all of this is how that's being abused. One of the things I really worry about is

where are we when this administration is over? I mean, what's the new normal at that point? What have we so debased, not just public discourse, but the dignity of the presidency and Congress and the Department of Justice and others that we look and are entirely different than we were before. How's that for a count? I'm sorry, God. God, I depressed myself. You are now a partner at King and Swalding, big firm, and a lot of people want you to run for office. Is that going to happen? No, well, that's it. I knew I'd get that reaction.

I pander with the best of them, yes. Now, you know, when people have mentioned that, I'm incredible flatter. Doesn't even feel like the right word there. I mean, it means a lot to me that people have said that they would like me to do that or would trust me to do that. Public service, absolutely.

I mean, that's in my heart, and I believe in that. running for office just feels very different to me than that. I just have a hard time seeing running for office. But if a different president wanted to call you back to Washington wouldn't be out of the question for you to go?

I believe in public service. There we go. Please join me in thank you for a great Sally Yates. Sally Yates, former Deputy Attorney General and briefly, ever so briefly, the acting attorney general speaking with Jeffrey Toobin at the New Yorker Festival earlier this month. We'll hear one more conversation from the festival with a live performance when Vincent Cunningham talks with the R&B singer, Kalella. That's up next on the New Yorker Radio Hour.

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for special offers on the 2019 Range Rover. Adventure, it's yours for the taking. Land Rover, above and beyond. I'm David Remnick. The actor Daniel Radcliffe is on Broadway right now in a play that's called The Lifespan of a Fact. His character is a fact-checker, and to prepare for that role,

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Can I get more vocal in my ears, please? And I'm Vincent Cunningham. Earlier this month at the New Yorker Festival, I was really excited to talk to the R&B singer Kalea. Her music is this wonderful mix of sound. Sometimes it's woo. along the lines of trip hop or electronica. At other times, she sounds like a 90s vocalist

along the lines of Janet Jackson. There's a real intelligence in her music, and it points to someone who really understands and appreciates the sources of her own music and also kind of implicates where that music might go in the future. So we talked, and then she also gave an incredible live performance, along with one of her producers and DJs, Lorick C. Thank you so much for being here with us for the 19th New Yorker Festival

and for this talk with Porella. First of all, I have immense respect for any singer, performer, or anybody who goes with just the first name. That's a pyro move as far as I'm concerned. How did you decide, you know, how you wanted to present yourself in that way? Well, I was really committed to the full name. Kalella Misan Christos. I really wanted to be known first and last.

And everybody was like, Kalella's distinct enough. And you're going to run into issues when people try to search your name, basically. Yeah, very strong from this angle, I just got to say. Thank you. I know you grew up in the DC area, and there was a sort of thriving culture of music. What were the things you were listening to as you were starting to perform and to start writing songs? How did that, all those influences come together? You know, it's really weird because, you know, I feel like I've grown up in a really, it's an intersectional experience.

You know, there's a lot of things going on at the same time. You know, I'm a daughter of immigrants, of African immigrants, East African immigrants, particularly Ethiopians. And then there's the layer of growing up in a suburb of D.C. being bust from a, you know, ghetto suburb to a whiter suburb and what that means, you know, there's a particular way that you're processing the world when your school is extremely segregated. I would say that's the case for everybody, but there's a way it was happening in my school. So I was listening to a lot of different things. You know, I was obsessed with R&B, any R&B vocal was just, that was like zero.

That was home base. And I would say before that I was listening to jazz and world music and just, you know, a lot of traditional music. And then I remember my ex-boyfriend, my first boyfriend had a Napster membership, one of the first. Oh, wow. We were all in. And I got Napster in the divorce, you know. I kept that membership for a few years to survey every female vocal period. I was just on a mission to just scan the world for every single type of singing.

And so I just would learn music and other languages, but mainly jazz. That was the thing that I was sort of serving the most. And so, you know, I've had different periods where I was just immersed in one sound. And then after that, it was sort of a really experimental music, you know? So electronic and experimental music. When I think about my experimental electronic music side, a lot of those references are still black because I'm thinking about Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, or I'm thinking about Boosey Collins or You know, just even Miles Davis or Herbie, Herbys.

Yeah. What was it about R&B that made it sort of that you said you were kind of more into jazz first and sounds like R&B had some pull on you? I guess it was just pop music. That was, you know, like there's a way that, you know, you can't, there's no camaraderie around jazz when you get to your elementary school. But jazz club's not where you want to be, right? You know, get to kindergarten and people being like, you know...

Blue and green. The evening breeze. You know, it's not that. So, I'm... Yeah, I think that it's just the pull. It's the thing that happens to every human, small human being. When they see Michael Jackson for the first time, or when they see, you know, when they hear Mariah or just any of those sort of

big, huge artists will have that pull, you know. But, you know, my love for jazz never died. I'm working, I can't keep my head up because we're talking late at night started a song then I gave a love so I hope this comes out right Don't say you're in love. In jazz, it's part of what you're supposed to do is reinterpret the standard, you know?

That's how you get good. So for me, I've always just been interested in how those things could be flipped and represented to you so that you like it in a different way. Yeah. Speaking of reinterpretation, is there like a song you haven't sung that you want to sing? Any song, it might not be a standard, any song that you. You like, it needs that Kalea sauce on it and you are... That Kalela sauce. There's, yeah, I mean, there's some songs.

There's a song called 30 Years by Betty Carter. It's one of my favorite songs in the world. There's a few jazz songs that are just like waiting for the prompt, you know, waiting for the appropriate context for. Yeah, there's a whole. I think organic instruments side to what I do. How do you sort of manage the business of Kalea? There's the sort of art that you engage in,

but then there's also just like the entity that is you. How do you toggle between those two? It has taken a lot of intention to rally people around who I actually am and not a projection of what they would like me to be. Yeah. That is, I think, a struggle for any artist out there, but there's a particular way that, as a black woman, I'm being asked to present myself while also being undervalued in the grand scheme.

There are certain things that just feel very much off-limits. and just sort of out of reach. Not because I think I'm not excellent, but just because I'm a brown-skinned black woman. What do you say, ways that people will perceive you? Or what are those things that feel? Beyond perceive me, so like those perceptions really turn into opportunities being available to you

or not, just like a very bottom line. Yeah. My process through being a businesswoman and an artist has, been to get really good at saying no while also, I guess not killing the vibe. You know? Sometimes you have to kill the vibe.

Sometimes the vibe just needs to be killed dead, you know? But other times there is a way that you want to navigate. You want to shut it down, you want to shut it down, but you don't want to shut them down, you know. So you're trying to express a problem with a dynamic. My business sort of plan is one that's meant to challenge the status quo.

It's meant to challenge establishment such that people on the outside will have to deal with me saying, no, I'm going to bring my own glam. I can't rely on you. I can't rely on you because you just have never shown up in that way, you know? Yeah.

There's so many ways I have to do that, I'd have to assert myself, you know, you can't do this because that's just not how it's done, but how come that white girl did it? I saw her, her, her, and her do it. Why can't I do that too? Yeah. So, yeah, there's just a zillion ways that it's come up. And everybody's had to go through some sort of, like, training, if that makes any sense.

Yeah. Informal. So what you just described sounds like a whole lot of work, right? Do you think that that work has made it easier for you to do the, like, the fundamental thing of, like, getting yourself across? Yes, because I was under so much stress before trying to navigate, you know, trying to be an artist and, like, protect myself. Yeah. Now I have people who are on the outside who are like, sorry, you can't go in there. You know, figuratively speaking.

And that makes a huge, that makes me a great deal less stressed out. You know, it's brought me so much solace to know that the people that I'm working with closely are really for me in that way. And not just for my art, and I think that's actually the issue. That's actually part of a black woman's experience is feeling like your output is so valued, you know. People love the runs, but they can't love the experience that it comes from. Yeah. And that's the end of our top. Yeah.

I was going to ask something else, but that's exactly where to go. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Let's have some more music. Give up right away, and you never feel. You just said, but it's cool, baby. I'm going to get me another.

Every day you can change. You can chase it for the night There's a place for you and I Better do as a river Between the My waist, so let me know I'm not gonna wait if you hesitate So let me know

That's Colella Performing at the New Yorker Festival Earlier this month And she spoke with staff writer Vincent Cunningham I'm David Remnick And next week We're going to follow a gas pipeline

That's redrawing the political map In parts of the state of Pennsylvania and we'll peek over Daniel Radcliffe's shoulder as he gets a lesson in fact-checking to prepare for his new role on Broadway. That's next week on The New Yorker Radio Hour. I hope you'll join us. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Yards

with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Boutin, Ave Corrieo, Rianan and Corby, Jill Duboff, Karen Frillman, Calaliyah, David Caw. Krasnow, Louis Mitchell, Sarah Nix, and Stephen Valentino, with help from Rhonda Sherman, David Ohana, Bradley G, Emily Mann, and Jessica Henderson. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported by Land Rover. Invest in Rocky Mountain Passes. Trade in hedge funds for tropical rainforest funds. Put your money into wondrous real estate you won't find on any broker's website.

Adventure, it's yours for the taking. With a new Land Rover is your companion, you'll see Adventure wherever you go. Visit your local Land Rover retailer for special offers on the 2019 Range Rover. Adventure, it's yours for the taking. Land Rover, above and beyond.