The New Yorker Radio Hour - Life After Prison

Episode Date: December 7, 2021

As a kid, Jonathan was good at soccer and making friends. But by the age of eighteen, he was a drug dealer facing his first serious conviction. For his third conviction, although the charges were for nonviolent offenses, he received a twenty-one-year prison sentence. In 2019, after serving seventeen years, he was released under the First Step Act, a bipartisan prison-reform bill that has helped to reduce the sentencing disparity between crack and powdered cocaine for some federal prisoners. In total, Jonathan has spent twenty-five years behind bars. Now, as a middle-aged former felon, he faces a world full of hazards and struggles with the unintended consequences of a long sentence. (Jonathan’s real name has been withheld, in order to protect his family’s privacy.)    Also, David Remnick speaks with Kai Wright, the host of WNYC’s “The United States of Anxiety,” about long prison sentences and how the goal of incarceration has shifted from “correction” to warehousing people for as long as possible.     This podcast was originally released on January 17, 2020.  New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. It's been over a decade since Michelle Alexander's book, The New Jim Crow, became a bestseller. The book identified mass incarceration not as a good solution to crime, but as part of a much larger problem. People concerned about social justice and people concerned about the size of government both started to pay attention. As public, sentiment has shifted, reform has come in fits and starts. For example, in 2018, Florida restored voting rights to former felons in a referendum. But the following year, the state legislature undermined that right. The biggest piece of federal legislation in the last few years has been

the First Step Act, a bipartisan bill signed by President Trump that released some 3,000 people from prison and reduced sentences for many others. One of the people, released under the First Step Act is a man we're going to call Jonathan. Our producer, Kalalia, started meeting with him shortly after he got out. This piece originally aired in January 2020. Jonathan was released from a federal prison in Orlando. He caught a bus to New York where his mother is living. Before getting on, Jonathan bought his first smartphone.

When I got on the bus, I went to the back of the bus, and I got the phone. and I ordered the Last Avenger movie. As long as there are those that remember what was, there will always be those that are unable to accept what can be. And I was watching it, and that's how I kind of collapsed my time like I was in a cell. I got in the corner and watched that movie. Because now I know what I must do. A man sat next to him and started talking.

but Jonathan wasn't ready to make small talk. I said, look, man, I really just got home. I don't know anything. I don't know what's going on. I'm trying to figure this phone out. I was really trying to shake off the prison feeling. And the prison feeling was hard to shake off. It's still there with me.

This last prison stint was Jonathan's third. The charges weren't violent, but because of previous convictions, he served 17 years for possession of drugs and an illegal firearm. All told, Jonathan spent 25 years behind bars. And now, as a middle-aged man, he's starting life all over again. When he got to New York City,

he had one day to report to his probation officer. About six weeks after his release, I met him in downtown Brooklyn. How are you doing? I'm all right. I'm all right. Sorry to keep you waiting. Were you in the rain? Oh, my God.

I'm not in the rain. I'm just being on. I want to be in the rain. You're on your phone? I'm trying to get a bill person. A bill person? This is what I would like to be doing right now. What?

Paying bills. Really? Yes. It's fine. You like being in the rain. You like paying bills. When you haven't done any of these things in a while, they're a blessing to you. You know, people look at it as, you know, mundane or to be able just to make it, pay a bill is.

Because where I was, I didn't have any bills. You know what I mean? I was in prison, isn't it? And the rain issue, you know, it's either you went out in the rain, walked in a circle, excuse me, walked in a circle, or stayed in the unit. So now I'm out. Look, there's so much to do in the rain.

You can go to a store, you can go to, you can go to a statue. You can go anywhere you want, and there's something to do. A couple of days later, I went with Jonathan to a group he attends. They're trying to help. formerly incarcerated people like him find work in construction. The session is led by a man named Divine Chabazz, and he starts with a warning. So I can't assist you without forewarning you that construction is a hostile environment. A lot of people in there are ex-offenders, a lot of people in construction off of the street,

a lot of people, college dropouts, you know, addicts, you name it. because in construction they don't discriminate. It's important that we have this class so y'all know what you're getting into and so that you can have a strategy going in, like, okay. It's mostly about finding jobs, but a lot of the conversation is about building life skills and coping with the world outside of prison.

My question is, what's the difference between aggressive and assertive? Okay, aggressive is when... They both are fueled by the same. same thing. Assertively is when you're just standing up for yourself. Identifying the way that they made you feel like, they made me feel like I'm not a man. They made me feel like less than a man. They made me feel like a punk. They made me felt like whatever, whatever it is, identifying whatever that feeling is and then being able to communicate that to that person. When I went in, I was about 170, I was slim. You know what I mean? It was a small dude, you know what I mean? So, you know,

I just had a lot of heart and wouldn't stop. So my thing was, I got to catch this guy. I'm going to catch this guy. All right. First chance I see him going in a cell without his cellie, I'm going right behind him and deal with the circumstances. So my thing was more so not to have a conflict resolution, was just more so about a conflict, but get it to my advantage. A few days later, we met at the headquarters of the fire department. To get a union construction job, Jonathan needs to get a few certifications. Small things as far as the numbers, like how far something's supposed to be. place, how, you know, weight, how much the hose can take, which is like 350 PSIA. Under, under that.

This morning, he's going to take a test for something called an S-92. If you're here to take a test, have your application, and employers let, oh, I've got to go up there with this application and give it to him. Right, and then they'll get a number probably. Before I go up there, I don't want to rush up there. Let's see what number they're at. Jonathan's number is called and he goes off to take the test. Jonathan really wants to get a construction job quickly

so he can start saving money to get his own place. His mom says that he can stay as long as he needs, but she's overly protective of him and worries all the time that he'll go back to prison. This makes Jonathan anxious. Jonathan was very little when his mother and stepfather immigrated from Guyana in the late 70s. My family, when we first come to this country where we were on welfare and public assistance and all that,

eventually it changed. We started, you know, my family, they started working in Citibank and started getting a little bit more money. And then things changed. We went to Delaware. We had a different style of life. You know what I mean? We had a middle-class style life. And as he grew older, he started having issues with his stepfather.

I don't know if it's because I was the older or not his or whatever the circumstances I never got to find out. It was always my fault. Beatings were part of a normal way of life for family to deal with discipline. Who's to say what's right and wrong? You know what I mean? But we do know when it becomes more of abuse than actual discipline. His family's solution to the tension and his acting out was to send him to Brooklyn to live with his aunt. and her family.

On the day after Christmas, we went to see as Aunt Elizabeth in East Flatbush. It wasn't even 10 o'clock in the morning, but she insisted I try some stew. Get a fork. So this is like really the butt of an ox? The tail of an ox.

Yeah. What do you think? Like short ribs. It does have, I do have short ribs in the pot. We add that together with our spices. Right? Do you remember when you first heard that he was coming out?

I was in Barbados on vacation. When I came back, I got a phone call saying, hi, Auntie Elizabeth. And I was like, who's this? The voice, you know. And he said, it's me, it's me. You forget that I lived in your home. And then I said, my nephew,

I was so excited I started to cry. What was it like when he first heard that he was going to prison? And then he was doing things in the same? I was shocked, surprised, because I didn't see that coming because he wasn't that type of person, you know. Things happen, you know, your God is good. He survived, whatever it is that he went through, and he's out now, and I'm happy for him.

Jonathan's aunt says she didn't know he had been in trouble as a kid, but it was her ex-husband who got him, into it. Well, my uncle, he was a hustler. He gambler, drug dealer, and he was knowing around. These guys got these cars, they got the money, they got the girls,

they got everything, everybody's falling over him. For his 12th birthday, his uncle gave him a gold rope necklace, the kind of chains that many dealers wore. I had the chain and I just felt so like, this is what I want to do. Guy might be

saying, hey man, I need you to go to Coney Island and drop off a package. Because they trust you, and you want them to trust you. You know what I mean? They're giving you opportunities, and then it grows into different things, more responsibilities. That's when I really kind of like

was caught up into the rapture of street life. I keep thinking about something, Jonathan told me. When he stopped going to school, no one bothered to call looking for him, at least as far as he knows. The authority figures either ignored him or like his uncle led him towards trouble. It seems only the police paid attention. Now, at 46, he's applying for jobs for the very first time.

The letter of recommendation to the NFDNY, and I will be getting the card in a few. Back at the fire department, Jonathan has some good news. So this is the certificate of passing. How do you feel? I felt like I won a million bucks. I've never really done anything like this in my entire life. So now I have something of value that I actually did on my own without having a shortcut or try to do something illegal to obtain means and methods.

While waiting for his new certification to come through, Jonathan shows me his new phone You have way more apps than I have I hadn't more I just took off a bunch of them We were dating site apps Yeah I was trying to find a high standard woman Good luck with that

I'm gonna take this off too because Yeah I didn't get no hit I get some matches Let me see your profile You don't even have a photo I got a profile up there I see Can you read it too?

Just come home from a long stretch in prison And is looking for any woman interested in whatever, wherever, whenever. No, you don't put that. I would skip over you, too, if I read, just came out full of love. I just put that there. You can't write that. I'm being honest, I'm keeping things up front

with people, so if they choose to, they choose to, if they don't, they don't. Why do you have 26? 26 to 45. That's too young. Okay. You need an older woman. I want to have kids.

Okay, it's in 30. Okay. I would go, because 26 is too young. I have to, um, find a particular woman that can understand my situation because I don't want to get into a situation where it becomes so complex that she possibly can send me back to jail by an argument.

Oh, she calls the police. I have to think about nine times before I do things. It's hard to approach people because I'm so guarded because I don't want to go back. Dating feels dangerous. to Jonathan now. So does going to a job site. And even his family

feel like strangers to him. I don't know them. You know, they're my family, but how do you know a person that hasn't been in your life 25 years? Right now, we're building a bond. You know what I mean? We're getting to know each other and our habits.

I don't know my family. I don't know my mother. I don't know my sister. I don't know my brother. I don't know their kids. I don't know anybody. Walked around the neighborhood today, I didn't see one person I knew. The world is a scary place for someone in his position. But for New Year's Eve, he's determined to enjoy life to the fullest. He makes the long trip on his own to Times Square to see the ball drop for the first time in his life. There was no way that I was going out in the cold around all of those people. So I showed Jonathan how to record on his smartphone, and I wished him a wonderful night.

It's a few minutes, and here it goes. I'm here and getting ready. One minute left. Selfie time. No more recording. Bye. Good night. Happy New Year. Jonathan got that construction job and has had consistent work for the past two years. Not long ago, he found the apartment of his own, and he's dating a woman who he met in person, not online, and they see each other pretty regularly. Although he wants children, he's still taking things slow. Jonathan spoke with Kalalia, a producer for the New Yorker Radio Hour in 2020.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More to come. I'm here with WNYC's Kai Wright, who's co-hosting today's program about mass incarceration. Kai, long sentences like the one Jonathan received are all part of the reason that the prison population just exploded in this country, starting around 1980. How did we come to decide that the point of prison wasn't correction or

rehabilitation, but basically warehousing, millions of people. And what have we learned from this experience? I wish I could tell you. I had answered to either question, David. I mean, the thing is, what is clear is that we decided somewhere along the way that it was okay to just put people out of sight and not think about them. And, you know, for many of us who have those folks in our families, they were not a site, right?

but for a lot of Americans, it was fine to just ignore. Where has there been progress in prison reform? Who? I'll let you think for a few minutes. Where has there been progress? That is not a question I'm prepared to answer because I don't know. You know, I think where people see hope are in a few places. One, you know, are some of these sort of ways in which we're rolling back the drug war, right?

So there has been some sentencing reform and there does seem to be, consensus on the need for continued sentencing reform. There is now a strong and important movement around bail reform and getting rid of this idea that people who, because they're a poor, just sit and languish in jails. There has been a lot of energy around changing how prosecutors operate. So we're seeing now suddenly that running for prosecutor is a thing that reformers do. It used to be... Like in Philadelphia and San Francisco. in San Francisco and other places.

There have it in New York here. Political debate and prosecutorial campaigns are now about who is appropriately reformist. But more broadly than that, David, is there's been a change in the politic of this, even in the movement. And this idea of prison abolition, which used to be, you know, something that was confined to the far left of the movement is now an increasingly mainstream idea that we have to figure out how to stop sweeping people into the criminal justice system at all and find a new way to figure out what we do when we do harm to one another. Kai, this has been terrific and thank you so much for joining us. It's my pleasure. Kai Wright is the host of WNYCs, the United States of anxiety. Earlier this fall, bipartisan talks for a sweeping criminal justice reform package collapsed in the Senate. This is the New Yorker

Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Thanks so much for listening today and join us next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Emily Boutin, Avey Correou, Calalia, David Krasnow, Gauphin and Putubuele, Louis Mitchell, Michelle Moses, and Stephen Valentino. With additional help from Priscilla Alabi and Harrison Keithline.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a special. supported in part by the Truina Endowment Fund.