The New Yorker Radio Hour - Living in the Shadow of Guantánamo, Part 2

Episode Date: August 6, 2019

In January, The New Yorker’s Ben Taub travelled to Mauritania to meet with Mohamedou Salahi. An electrical engineer who had lived in Germany, Salahi was detained at Guantánamo Bay for fifteen years and tortured, despite the fact that he was not a terrorist.  But one of the key pieces of evidence was that Salahi’s cousin, known as Abu Hafs al-Mauritani, was a high-ranking member of Al Qaeda—a member of the group’s governing Shura Council and a spiritual adviser to Osama bin Laden, who had drafted bin Laden’s infamous fatwa against the United States. While Salahi endured torture at Guantánamo, Abu Hafs was never captured or detained by the United States. When Ben Taub met Abu Hafs at a wedding of Mauritanian élites, he wondered how this man had gone free while his cousin had suffered so much. Abu Hafs agreed to an interview, but it quickly took a turn that Ben didn’t expect. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. In January, our reporter Ben Taub traveled to Mauritania in Western Africa in order to meet with a man named Mohamedu Salahi. His story is the subject of our entire program today. When Salahi was sent to Guantanamo Bay, one of the most damning pieces of evidence, is that he had once received a call from Osama bin Laden's satellite phone. Salahi's cousin was a high-ranking al-Qaeda member very close to Ben Laden, and this cousin had once used bin Laden's phone to call Salahi. While Salahi was subjected to torture at Guantanamo,

his cousin, Abu Javs al-Moratani, was never captured by the United States. He lives freely now in his home country of Mauritania, and while Ben Taub was reporting there, he ran into Abu-Hawks at a party. He gave me a phone number and said, call this number. It's for my secretary. The next day, I did call. He told me, come to my house right now. Here's staff writer Ben Taub.

Abu Hafsal Moratani is a man of extraordinary influence in power. He lives in one of Nuakchot's most expensive neighborhoods near the sea. It's made up of lavish compounds, many of which belong to European expatriates. But one building is out of place. It's a small wooden shack sitting up against one of these compounds. This is the temporary site of a mosque where Abu Hafts preaches. There's groups of young Salafi men going into this shack, wooden shack, with a loud speaker hooked up to the top. This is called to pray.

As I approach his house, I go on Google Maps and drop a pin on my exact location. I send that pin to my editor in New York and give him the phone numbers for certain people he should contact in Martania if I can't check in within four hours. four hours. Abu Hafts finishes leading prayers and invites me to follow him into his compound. We walk through the gate and he closes it behind me and brings me into his living room. I sit down on his couch. Several of his followers come in too. Hey, my husband.

Yes, you're welcome. Go ahead. Great. Okay. Thank you. First thing, in the article, how would... It was me and my translator. Since I'd come to his house in such a hurry, the only person available was one of

of Mohamedu's nephews. And since Mohamedu and Abu Hafez are cousins, that means he's also one of Abu Haf's nephews. So this is the question. I sat down on the couch and he poured me a glass of water. Bush.

Bush. You're just a judge. After 9-11. I wanted to make clear that I was not there to relitigate his past in al-Qaeda or to blame him for 9-11. In fact, I knew from the 9-11 commission report that Abu Hafts opposed the attacks.

When he first learned about the plan, he stood up in a Shura Council meeting and defied bin Laden, saying that the scale of civilian casualties was indefensible in Islamic law. So he's especially sensitive about anyone linking him to 9-11, even though he knew about it before it took place. So if the terrorists, if they are interested, only to attack. Mounted it. Yeah, yeah.

He didn't say that word. Yeah, yeah. I'm out of tourists. He didn't say they are tourists, but just to explain to you. No, I don't want to use... I'd come to Abou Hafts to learn two things. How did he feel about the fact that his cousin, whom he'd grown up with, who he had followed to Afghanistan,

had essentially gone to Guantanamo Bay in his place? And how is it that Abu Hafts, this Al-Qaeda leader who had a $25 million bounty on his head, was never captured, and was living openly in the same country from which Mohamedu had been renditioned by the CIA. Those were my questions, but it was clear that Abu Hafts had other things on his mind. You live in the Western, you have a great mind.

And this is a great thing to guide you to the truth. Everyone who looks for the truth. If he are interested in it, the God will guide you to the truth. Good afternoon. On my orders, the United States military has begun strikes against al-Qaeda terrorist training camps and military installations of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. When the U.S. invaded Afghanistan in October 2001,

Abu Hafts was living in Kandahar. He knew he had to leave the country, and so he traveled through remote villages, entrusting his life to Afghan Shia. who were presumably unaware of the $25 million bounty on his head. He made it to Pakistan, which was clearly giving sanctuary to many Taliban fighters, but he worried that they would turn him over to the CIA. Officially, if unreliably, Pakistan is a counterterrorism partner of the United States.

And in Pakistan, Abu Haas and the other Al-Qaeda fighters, who were mostly Arabs, stood out. In an emergency meeting with other al-Qaeda leaders, he came out with a plan, the safest place he thought was a place that had no relationship to the Americans. He had to get to Iran. What Abu Haas guessed correctly is that the Iranians understood his value. They would have the Al-Qaeda leadership living in their custody. And during that time, there would be no Al-Qaeda operations within Iranian territory. For the next decade, he lived partly as a prisoner, partly as a guest.

Yes, I stayed in Iran 10 years. I was in a house. Every two days, I have the opportunity to go outside for the shower and to do a shower and everything. Technically, he was under house arrest, but he was the kind of detainee who gets escorted to fancy malls, who works out in the same gym as foreign diplomats, who has a cell phone and internet access. This was at the same time that his cousin, Mohamedu Salahi, was being tortured at Guantanamo Bay. For the next decade, while Abu Haft was living in Iran, Mauritania was the site of regular jihadi violence.

But it stopped abruptly in 2011. And it was around that time that Abu Haft realized he could go home. And one day, I decided. that when I went to do the shower and to the gym and everything, I'll take the car away and go away. Okay, to the embassy. Yeah. Abu Haft slipped out of Iranian custody during a trip to the gym.

He bolted into the changing room and into the street. And dressed in his gym clothes, he hailed a taxi to the Martinian embassy in Tehran. Yes, and the ambassador called the foreign minister, and that called the president, and the president told them, to make sure that he's okay and they have to do everything to bring him back to Mauritaine. In order to avoid detection by the Americans,

they booked him on a commercial route through three transit countries. That's an amazing story. Yeah, it's very amazing. In fact, could I ask him some questions about Mahmoudi's case? I say, I'll say two minutes. He said, from the first time,

he said, I'll ask him two minutes. Yes. The whole time you asked me, now I will ask you one question. And this question might lead you to a very successful life. Are you a Christian or a Jews? No, I'm not. If you now you ask yourself. Now if you see a big machine, a complicated machine,

if you want to make sure about this machine or this machine, You should read the manufacture's book for this machine to make sure everything. The machine is you. And the rule for that is the Quran. He handed me a French translation of the Quran. This is the manual for the... The manual for you.

For you, yourself. No, I would say, I'll tell you. If you died, At the moment, you'll go to the hell. And you can't do his own his own his name of his

shadda by the Lord. We don't want you to go to the hell. And you can do by one phrase, you said it by your tongue.

And you believe in your heart. Yes, and the phrase is the shahadha. The shahara is one sentence. There is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet. When someone wants to convert to Islam, they say this phrase in the presence of Muslim witnesses.

In this moment, it became clear to me that Abu Hafts wanted me to convert. Right here, on his couch. The sheikh, he wants you to try, inshallah, to book your place in the paradise. And it is easy thing. Just by one phrase. Yes. But there was another part of what he said. He said, you have to say the shahada

and you have to understand and believe in your heart. And to understand the second part, I need to finish redeem this first. But no one, he has the experience what will be tomorrow. Because we can die now. Yes, but I... I didn't get the sense that he was threatening me, but you feel very vulnerable in a former al-Qaeda leader's house. and Abu Hafts' followers were getting agitated

that I was not receptive to his message. The fact is, the shahara is supposed to be a sincere profession of faith, something one chooses to do when one is ready. I hadn't even read the Quran. So I was now in this almost comical situation where I'm explaining to this man, a fundamentalist who considers himself a religious leader, why my spontaneous conversion wouldn't be legitimate in Islam.

Yes, but I can't fulfill the shahedah properly until I've, But you can't say the Shahad and then you read the book. He said two things. He said, what? He said, he said, I said it. I still needed to ask him about Muhammad, so I had to figure out a way to pivot out of the talk of conversion and get back to the interview. So I tried to frame it in terms that he would understand. Urgency, what I would like to do if possible is finish the questions tonight in case they, the police get me out of Martinia, because they don't like journalists.

Yes, he understands. He understands. the kinds of pressures that security intelligence apparatus use on individuals, he's been subjected to it in the past. I'm curious, I just have a couple of questions about Mohammed's case. If it's okay. So he wrote in his book that, and the Americans claim, that one time you called him from bin Laden's satellite phone.

Is that correct? And if so, what did you discuss? with the jihad or something. Yeah, well, Mohammedi told me, and he said it was about money to help your father who was sick, is that right? Yes, I got to sit down by the person. Yes, I transferred to him some money. Ah, okay, so, okay.

Then the other thing was about Mahamadu, and I guess the kind of uncomfortable question, and I don't mean to insult, but I wonder, does he think that Mahamudu would have ever been arrested if he had not been in al-Qaeda. Not Mahamru, if other... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had, said, I'm not a relationship. That was pretty much all he had to say on the subject of his cousin

spending 15 years in Guantanamo Bay. And then he thanked me for coming. And the happiness, you have never found the happiness without you believe in the God, the real belief. Yeah. That night, I went to Muhammadu's apartment and told him what had happened. That's true. But this fit along with his general pattern of being, like, relatively dismissive and not interested in your plight.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, you're right, that's very dismissive. He's more interesting saving your soul. Yeah, yeah, exactly. His soul is not important to him. What was the other call? It was around 8 p.m. on my last night, I went to his apartment to say goodbye to him. And he was packing up his stuff and said he needed to leave for the night

because one of his aunts had died. That aunt was also Abu Hafts' aunt. And so the family was going to head out in convoy, drive overnight and bury her at dawn. And Abu Hafts was going to be in the convoy. Abu Hafts was going to lead the prayer at dawn. Encounters like this are basically inevitable. Mahamadu can try to separate himself from Abu Hafts, but in Nuwakshod, he can't escape his

orbit. And Muhammadu can't leave the country because, as a condition of his release from Guantanamo, the Americans made the Mauritanian government promise to not issue him a passport for some unknown period of time. So he's stuck. He can't get the surgery he needs to correct the botched surgery he had at Guantanamo. He can't go see his wife. He has never even met his son. He's They can't live as a free man. And yet, he harbors no resentment toward the United States. He has forgiven his tormentors. He's passionate about democracy and the rule of law.

He's obsessed with principles that the United States publicly espouses, but has never extended to him. I was never charged, let's not convicted of any crime against your country. And I'm just a peaceful person. And I never heard anyone. and I don't intend to hurt anyone and I just want the same freedom like I am risking a lot by speaking out about this stuff because I was told many times that this is not good for me and I said I'm not going to shut up and I will not shut up because I want freedom I want the same freedom that American citizens enjoy in the United States

Why is that impossible? Why? I just need an answer and I be on my way. Mohamedu Salahi, speaking with Bentab earlier this year, you can find Ben Tab's article Guantanamo's Darkest Secret at New Yorker.com. Salahi's book, Guantanamo Diary, was published in 2015 while he was still in detention. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, and thank you for joining us. I hope you'll join us again next week. Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. The program is supported in part by the Turin Endowment Fund.