The New Yorker Radio Hour - Mike White on the New Season of “The White Lotus” in Sicily

Episode Date: November 8, 2022

The first season of “The White Lotus” won ten Emmy Awards and was a critics’ favorite. A dark satire of the privileged, the show chronicled the visit to a luxurious Hawaiian resort of a tech mogul and her family, a pair of newlyweds, and a single woman—all having the worst time of their lives—while the hotel manager goes off the wagon in a way both hilarious and harrowing. In Season 2, creator Mike White has moved the action to Sicily, and is focussing on gender roles and masculinity. White speaks with the staff writer Naomi Fry about his upbringing as the child of a minister, in a modest family in a wealthy community. “I hope that I’m not writing this show for the rest of my career,” White says. “But it does feel like, if you’re taking a snapshot, I am being true to the things that I’m thinking about right now.” New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remneck. The first season of HBO's White Lotus chronicled the visit to a Hawaiian resort of a select group of the very, very privileged, a tech mogul in her family, a pair of newlyweds having second thoughts, and an heiress who's grieving and in need of therapy. When I saw my mother's ashes hit the water, you know, I just reminded me of, you know, sprinkling fish food in an aquarium. And I was just like, oh, my God, you know. Am I feeding my mother to the fishes? All the while the resorts manager is having a complete meltdown that's both hilarious and kind of harrowing to watch.

New Yorker staff writer Nomi Fry called the show, near-note-perfect tragic comedy. When I first watched the first season of White Lotus, I was really interested in its combination of scathing, critique, and kind of just basic plot enjoyment, right? So it was about watching a bunch of rich people in a luxury resort, supposed to be having the time of their lives. and through a series of events having like the worst time of their life pretty much.

But it also said something bigger about where we are right now as a society. And I think it's it's fairly rare that a show manages to do both of these things without being too ponderous or too flimsy. I think one of the things that interested me to talk about with Mike White, he's a very successful writer and creator. He wrote movies like School of Rock. He's a very well-respected and successful screenwriter and producer. But another funny and interesting thing about him that maybe some people don't know is that he's also a huge fan of reality competition shows and has even participated in a couple of those shows himself. He was on Survivor on the David versus Goliath season a few years ago. And he was also on The Amazing Grace where he partnered up with his father.

And the issues that come up in those reality shows that have to do with status, competition, power relationships between people are also, I think, evident in White Lotus and what he does in White Lotus. Season two of the show has just premiered, set this time in Sicily. Nomi Fry sat down with the creator, Mike White. Was it your hope from the get-go that this would be part of a kind of series? like, okay, each season will concentrate on another location and the connecting thread would be that these are all part of this like franchise, you know, hotel franchise, basically. You know, to be honest, the first one was just a one-off flyer, you know, like there was no big

design to what would be, you know, what would follow. In my mind, you know, I'd always tried to figure out how to do this. Like, I was on The Amazing Race and it was like, When I was on the amazing grass, I was like, how can I... With your father, right? Your father was your partner. And so I was always like, this is so cool. I would love to be able to simulate this in my own wheelhouse of like, yeah, scripted stuff and figure out how to travel and go new places and have a kind of life adventure while I was still trying to make something, you know, artistic.

I had this idea for a honeymoon show, which was like basically me getting to have. this amazing race experience where, you know, it's like a couple on an ambitious honeymoon and you follow them. And one of them realizes that, you know, they don't, now they know the person in a way that they didn't know prior to traveling. So, yeah, but then in the back of my mind, I was like, well, maybe we could do this again, new characters. So, like, the misbehaving actors from the first season that I don't want to bring back, I can just dump. Not that there were any. But, like, it's just that idea, like, I can start fresh. I'm not somebody who, like, is really that interested in, you know, keeping a franchise going creatively. Right.

Sometimes it just feels like I don't want to like, because after a while that just feels like a job. Yes, yes, yes. So like, it's like I don't want a job. So like, so yeah, so this felt like great. Like I can bring in new people, tell a new story, go somewhere new. And I mean, to me that's like cracking the code for just my own personal like druthers. Because you like to travel? Well, it's just, I mean, like, yeah, like the experience we had in Sicily had just like.

Like, I mean, like, that's, I mean, I could start crying. Like, it's just like, just to be able to, yeah, like, I mean, that's the life I always, you know, always wanted as like, whatever, a middle class kid growing up in, like, a homogenous past it. It was just like, go and shoot in Asia. Go shoot in, you know. You're like, like, get out of, like, my little, yeah. And now I'm spoiled. So it's like, I think it's like, unless it's, like, firing on all of these, like, lifestyle pistons, It's just not enough.

Like, forget it. So, yeah, I never want to, like, drive on the 405 to, like, a stage in Burbank again. Right. I sound like a duch. That's interesting because in a way that kind of parallels the experiences of some, at least some of the people who are, you know, some of the characters on the show, right? The idea of being able to leave your life behind and go and, you know, become this new thing is something that the show is kind of about in a way, right?

Like, does that idea interest you? And I also think that, like, traveling, especially vacationing, it's very ripe with just existential, the existential experience, which is like, who am I? What do I want? Like, what do I want? And like, in a vacation, too, it's like you're seeking pleasure. You're seeking some kind of, I don't know. It sounds, I always feel stupid talking about.

But like I do like existential like comedies or whatever. It's like that people who are like searching for meaning in their life and like how what is the life I want to live and not so much situational stuff. So I just felt like I was like this is this definitely feels like it's of a piece of the kinds of things I like to get into and you know when I write. Screenwriter and director Mike White talking with Nomi Fry. We'll continue to. a moment. Did you write, I know that you wrote the first season on your own, which is not

completely typical, I think, right? Is this, did this second season, did you write it on your own? Did you have a writer's room? No, I used to have a writer's room and I first started making show. I mean, I only made four shows, but the first two had writers rooms. But I found it to be very, you know, the writers would write their scripts and I would look at it and I'd be like, this isn't written by by me. Like, I just, it was like, it wasn't alive unless I was immersed in it somehow. It's the part of the job that I, you know, is, I don't want to subcontract it out.

You know, it's like, I don't really, yeah, it's just like I come, I'm not, I don't see myself as a producer. I look at myself as a writer who is finding different ways to do it. And so, yeah, so I, for me, it was like, over time, I realized, like, yeah, it may limit. limit the show's point of view. There's criticism that comes, I guess, especially lately of someone being the soul, like, kind of creator. But for me, if I wasn't able to do that,

I would just go write something. I'd go write a book, or I'd go, I'd find some other medium because I just don't really, I don't want to, like, interpret someone else's writing. You know what I mean? That's just not what I'm about. Right. Although that's interesting because I know you to also be a very successful writer for hire, right, on other people's projects. Yeah, which is the writing part. But like, I've never really directed somebody else's work or, I mean, I've produced, but I hated it.

So, like I, so yeah, it's just like I can, I like kind of being helpful in those situations, plus it's nice to get paid. So, so let's talk a little bit about this season. It seems that the folk. the thematic focus, it's more about kind of sexual politics and the ways people interact with each other and have conflict with each other and have conflict resolution with each other and so on is through the sexual realm. Yes, the first season, you know, was a lot about money and how it impacts all relationships. And because we shot in Hawaii, it did, you know, obviously get into colonialism and, like, you know, different kind of macro elements of that same idea. And I was worried about, like, trafficking in that again because I was like, I'm just going to get dragged. Like, I was already like, it was just like, I felt like we got through the first season. We're just like by the skin of our teeth.

Like, just because they were just like, you know, I don't know. Like, yeah, I mean, and there were like, you know, fierce criticism. from certain people about me as a creator touching on these topics and... As a white man and so on. Yeah, exactly. And so, like... And so, you know, I... I didn't know if I had the stomach to go through that again.

And I also felt like I was like, you know, it was like, I think we need a new theme in general. You know, I had a different idea, you know, but then when we got to Sicily, there were all these Tested Amoro heads. And like, and the test of Dormorahs is... about sexual jealousy and adultery. And I just was like, well, maybe that's where we start this. You know, there's still this unfettered machismo that you kind of associate with Sicily and like this kind of, you know, this like old world way of dealing with, you know, like issues

and like this kind of like patriarchal like street, you know, way of handling. conflict and like, and so it's less, it's less woke than, quote, unquote, than America. Well, certainly. In the imagination. Yeah, and also it's just like, yeah, for some it's like a nightmare and for some it's like a sort of bucolic fantasy of how like men could be, still be men. Sure. And so it just felt like I was like, well, this is kind of funny.

And then I had this idea of like, yeah, three generations of like American men, you know, in different stages of their relationship to being a man. So, yeah, I kind of pivoted to that theme. It just seems like the body would naturally stop getting horny once you're past the age of procreation, you know? Like at 50, you would just stop. 50? 50's not that old.

It just seems undignified. I'm still virile, by the way. I could still impregnated woman. Oh. No girl should have to be exposed to an old guy's junk. It's not like it was ever so beautiful to look at anyway. I mean, it's a penis. It's not a sunset.

The thing that always interests me about sex and I think is what saturates the show is this kind of the animal in us, the monkey in the man, you know, and how as much as we want to be virtuous or dignified or, you know, upstanding individuals, there's this antic force in us that, like, you know, motivates us and, and pulls the rug out from under us. And I, without sounding Freudian, it just, I just think that imbues life, you know, in every, you know, actress talk about, what are my, what's my motivation? And it's like, the motivation of sex is always like primary, I think. Right. I mean, there's nothing, there's nothing more interesting than sex and money, I think. It turns out. It turns out, that's true. But, you know, speaking of money, and I know you've spoken about this a little bit, about what it's like, you know, being interested in writing, you know, and making a show about people, about status, right? About status, money, power. So dealing with that, but also being at a point in your life in which you yourself are, you know, quite powerful. And, you know, Our listeners, you know, can't see, I can see Mike on the Zoom and his eyes are opening wide and his smile is, you know, explosive, absolutely explosive. But no, but I just mean, I mean, you can, you can admit that you're coming to writing about this, like, not of issues, not from the place of like, you know, a kind of aspirant, but as. as a person who in some ways has arrived or maybe one never arrives you know maybe maybe that's

another thing i know i mean it's it's definitely why you know sometimes criticism is lobbed just as a person going through the world and being seen in a certain way i'm my um observations or what i'm creating is suspect because yeah i have money and i haven't given it all away i have i have You know, I'm not walking with the poor. Like, my dad always told me that, you know, we were supposed to if we, you know, like, my dad was a minister and was like, you know, he didn't believe rich people should even own houses. You know, and I grew up in a rich community, but we were not rich. And so, like, I always was fascinated and kind of repelled by the rich people.

Yeah. Like, I guess I will always see myself as someone from. the outside looking in, whether I'm not that or not. I think it holds true to just my writing in general, which is like I, I like to see, put out the, like, the flawed human characters, you know, like, and not try to create idealistic, flattering characterizations of people, but at the same time, see that they are human, you know, Or whatever. I don't know how to do it any other way. So like it's like either just don't like don't come to my class or like whatever. No, I know. I mean, I think I think it's honest. I mean, there's a thing I often say to my husband, which is like the first step is to admit that you're part of the problem.

And the problem is as old as time itself. You know, it's like it's like it's not like a, you mean, you know, so this is a this is like a historical reality that like I'll I will never be pure. You know, it reminds me of like Survivor, which was like, I went on Survivor. And it's like, you see yourself as the underdog of the story. And everyone does. Like, it doesn't, Elon Musk, I'm sure, feels like he's the underdog of the story. Like, he's coming in and he's changing the system and, like, he's, you know, finding all these obstacles. And, like, he's going to come in and he's going to be the fighter. And then it's like, so it's like, and everyone feels that way.

I feel that way. I feel like I'm like this weirdo kid who, like, never, like, fit in. I was like this weird writer. Like, and it's like, and then it's, and then I get on. Survivor, which I've always been like, oh, that'd be so cool to play. And I've always identified with the underdog. I've always fought, you know, wanted the underdog to win. I just naturally associate with the underdog and gravitate to those stories. And then you get on there and they're like, oh, you're a Goliath. And I was like, I'm the Goliath. And then you're

like, oh, yeah, I am the Goliath. And not only am I a Goliath, but I am the heel. I'm the villain in this story. Like, there's like, I look across and I see all of these, you know, Davids. And I'm like, oh, this is a story about. them overcoming me and I'm the bad guy and it's like and I see that writ large in my own career which is like it was always this like you know whatever like this outsider who wanted who was determined to write stories that did not like you know we're not about the beautiful people we're not about like the well it wasn't about sex and it's like and here I am and like my the biggest success of my career is about writing about like yeah like beautiful people are vacation and it's just like there's a part of me

the 22 year old in me is like what have I done at the same time it's just like well This is just this natural, this is the natural, like, stage of life. Like, I don't know. I'm just going through this. And it's like, yeah, you can reject me, you know, go ahead. Like, whatever. Like, it's like, but I, but that, you know, it's just, I just feel like I'm being true to what I'm seeing around me. Again, I hope that I'm not writing this show for the rest of my career or that I can, you know, expand beyond whatever the ideas of this show.

But it does feel like it's like, if you're taking a snapshot, you know, I am being true to like the things that I'm thinking about right now. Mike White, speaking with staff writer, Nomi Fry. Season 2 of White Lotus premiered last week. I'm David Remnick, and this is The New Yorker Radio Hour. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.

This episode was produced by Emily Boutin, Breda Green, Callalia, David Krasnow, Louis Mitchell, and Gophane and Putabuele. Along with Jeffrey Masters, Will Coley, Jenny Lawton, and Michael May. And we had assistance from Harrison Keithline, Meher Batia, and James Napoli.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Trouina Endowment Fund.