The New Yorker Radio Hour - Naftali Bennett and the New Hard Line in Israeli Politics

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

In 2013, David Remnick published a profile of Naftali Bennett.  He wrote that Bennett was something new in Israeli politics, a man who would “build a sturdy electoral bridge between the religious and the secular, the hilltop outposts of the West Bank and the start-up suburbs.” Though religiously observant, Bennett was cosmopolitan: fluent on Facebook, and as quick to quote Seinfeld as he was the Talmud. He had been a leader of the settler movement, and, although he lived in a modern house in a well-to-do Tel Aviv suburb, there was no ambiguity about Bennett’s hard-line stance on the Palestinian question. He disdained the peace process of an earlier time. “I will do everything in my power to make sure they never get a state,” he told Remnick. “No more illusions.” Bennett has now unseated his former boss, Benjamin Netanyahu, as Prime Minister of Israeli. Remnick spoke with two writers in the region about this political upheaval. Raja Shehadeh, who is based in Ramallah, says that the changing of the guard will mean little on the West Bank, where the recent bloody conflict was a propaganda victory for Hamas. Ruth Margalit, who is based in Tel Aviv, says that, while the peace movement seems all but dead, the changing of a political epoch, and the presence of the first Arab-Israeli party ever represented in the Knesset, has to be seen as an opportunity for change. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. About a decade ago, I went to a well-to-do suburb north of Tel Aviv to meet with a youngish Israeli politician whose name was Nafali Bennett. I showed up at his house, and it was big, it was modern, and had flat-screen TVs. And we sat outside, and he talked about his years in the software industry, and working as a chief of staff to Benjamin Netanyahu. Bennett was something pretty new in Israeli politics.

He promised, I wrote then, to build a sturdy electoral bridge between the religious and the secular, the hilltop outposts of the West Bank and the startup suburbs. Bennett was fluent in Facebook. He quoted Seinfeld as much as he did the books of the Talmud, and he had been a leader of the settlers,

but he no longer lived in a settlement. Yet there was no ambiguity at all about Bennett's stance on the Palestinian question. He was a hard liner. He disdained the peace process of an earlier time. I'll do everything in my power to make sure they never get a state, he told me. No more illusions. Neftali Bennett is now the Prime Minister of Israel, having unseeded Benjamin Netanyahu, who was the longest running Prime Minister in the history of the state. last week I reached out to two writers in the region, one Palestinian and one Israeli, to talk about this political upheaval.

Ruth, how are you? Hi. How's it going? I'm good. How are you? I'm great. It's fine. It's good to see you. Ruth Marguerlead lives in Tel Aviv and she reports for the New Yorker from around the region.

Now, Ruth, the coalition that brought Neftali Bennett to power just now is all over the map politically. but he himself, obviously, is very hard line on the Palestinian question. The coalition loathes Netanyahu, but I'm not quite sure how anything is going to change where the Palestinian question is concerned. Do you? I don't see how it's going to change, at least not in the short term. I think there are some promising signs in the sense that you're right about Naftali Bennett, that he himself is very much a hardliner, but it's also an alliance. He only won seven seats out of 120.

So he's really reliant on these other factions. And among them are, you know, two left-wing parties. We have for the first time ever in an Israeli government, we have an Arab party. So there are these sort of promising, kind of cautiously promising signs. But you're right. I mean, will, you know, will the life of a Palestinian family living in Gaza change next week because Netanyahu is no longer in power and Bennett is, no. The answer is no, not yet.

And this change also comes in the context of a yet another conflict in which there was rocket fire and then bombing from Israeli fighter jets and hundreds dead, mostly Palestinians. And this has had an effect on Palestinian politics. And it's also had an effect on Palestinian Arabs in Israel. and you've reported on this, tell us what's changed. Well, I think for the first time, in a long time, we're seeing this kind of cross-Palestinian sort of solidarity movement. You know, until now, whenever there were tensions in Gaza, in other places,

it didn't necessarily mean that things would sort of spark up in the West Bank or in East Jerusalem. And inside Israel, not at all, you know, I mean, occasionally, but this was very rarely the case that, Palestinian citizens of Israel, who are known in Israel as sort of Arab Israelis, they never really joined this kind of pan-Palestinian movement. And now they have. And I think partly it's because, you know, Netanyahu, after a decade,

more than a decade in power, made life really very untenable for them inside Israel, for these Arab Israelis. And so there's a deep sense of frustration and despair. And we saw the sparks of that. Now, on the other hand, you can say, well, you know, earlier I just said that we have an Arab party joining the government for the first time. So how does that, doesn't that mean that suddenly they're sort of integrating and are taking part in political life?

But I think this Arab party that joined the coalition isn't really speaking about a two-state solution or any kind of solution for that matter. They're sort of talking about getting budgets passed, you know, making life inside the Arab cities and villages safer. There's a deep sense in which after all of these Netanyahu years, people inside Israel and maybe outside of it have kind of lost hope for a peaceful resolution, even though I think it's not dead just yet. But yet, and yet the shift seems on both sides of the Green Line to, who were to greater obstinence, greater radicalization. I think the last round of escalation in Gaza was really a turning point.

I think part of what is really frustrating about these years of Netanyahu's rule and kind of this right-word shift, he kind of made, it sounds crazy, but he made Hamas sort of kosher in a sense from many people outside of Israel. Well, in the sense that, you know, the despair is so,

is so immense and the pictures coming out of Gaza were just incredibly just heartbreaking for everyone to watch. But it was almost as though Hamas was seen as a kind of reasonable alternative. And of course, they're not, you know, and from my perspective, you know, I've also seen the great damage that they've caused, Hamas. And, you know, the suicide bombings inside Israel of the 90s that have now been replaced by, you know, rocket fire and other, you know, I mean, I think, I think it points to a real crisis if that's the alternative sort of Palestinian movement that is on the rise now. It never seems to get better and seems only to get worse and at the same time to be only

fitfully paid attention to in recent years. I think that's true, but can I also say that maybe something now after this, you know, Something is shifting in Israel, and I think we have to give it time, and maybe there'll be, maybe there'll be signs of hope. I don't know yet, but suddenly something is happening here. So it's worth, it's worth, you know, paying attention to. That's Ruth Margulete in Tel Aviv, and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. We'll continue in just a moment. Hi, Raja.

Hi. It's good to see you, even through this strange technology. Yeah, but to see you too. Roger Shahada is a lawyer and a writer, and he's based in Ramallah in the West Bank. So Roger, Neftali Bennett is now Prime Minister of Israel. How is this news being received in Ramallah? Well, the news in Ramallah about the elections is that it doesn't make much difference between Benjamin Netanyahu and Naftali Bennett.

I think it does make some difference, but essentially they're on the same track. it makes a difference as far as Israel is concerned because Netanyahu is harming a lot of institutions in Israel. But as far as the Palestinians are concerned, they're made from the same cloth. Have the Palestinians given up on Israeli politics completely? I mean, what possible hope can be found in the Israeli political scene? The left is practically a dead letter. Unfortunately, that is true. I read this speech to the Knesset of Neftali Bennett, and there's nothing in it about peace education, about making peace with the Palestinians.

It repeats the same old stuff that the Palestinians don't recognize the existence of the Israeli people, Jewish Israeli people on the land, and that they will continue with the settlements and that they will stop the building of Palestinians on what is called Area C, which is 60% of the territory of the West Bank. there's not much hope, nothing to hold on to hope in becoming regime. At the same time, ultimately, it's only through Israel that we can make peace. And so it's very disappointing that there isn't a political structure in Israel which calls for peace, through peace, with the Palestinians, or a recognition of the existence of the Palestinians. What is the political effect, the political aftermath,

and even the psychological aftermath among the Palestinians, of the recent conflict in the last month? Well, the Palestinians, unfortunately, have come to see that making an arms struggle with the Israelis works to some extent, because now the Israelis consider how other Palestinians are going to react. And they never did that. They just bombed Gaza without having any consideration that there would be a reaction. Now, at least they're considering there is a reaction.

This is on the one side. On the other side, the Hamas won a lot of support amongst the Palestinians, because the Palestinians in the West Bank, for example, could see that the strategy that the Palestinian Authority was following, which was to kneel down to the Israelis to try and get negotiations going and so on and making concessions. All of that was not getting them anywhere. Hamas is considered a terrorist group by the United States

and elsewhere in the world. and it's not had a chance to run an election beyond Gaza. How would an election, if it were permitted by the Palestinian Authority, come out? If elections take place, Hamas will win. Roger, could you see yourself voting for Hamas or after all these years? I think it's a tragedy to see it that way because Hamas stands for everything I don't like. And Hamas, if it ruled here, would curb. individual rights. And the same problem with the Arab party in Israel, which is now part of the

government, it stands for everything that the secular Palestinians in Israel do not want. And likewise with Hamas. Roger, forgive me for being rude, but how old are you? I am, I was born, I am about to be 70. So you're 70 years old, the situation is what it is now. do you hold any hope for there being any kind of peace, any kind of reconciliation, any kind of true political deal with Israel in your lifetime? I think not because the way I see it,

Israel is not moving towards the essentials for peace. And for me, the essentials for peace are coming to terms without Israel did to the Palestinians in the course of its establishment. And there's no indication whatsoever that there is movement. in that direction. And so as long as Israel denies that Israel was established on the backs of the Palestinians and by forcing the Palestinians out of the land, I don't see any possibility for real peace. Of course, many Israelis would be quick to point out that how is it possible to make peace

with particularly Hamas-led Palestinians whose charter calls for the elimination of the state of Israel? You know, the charter of the Likud and the Israeli government is no less fanatic than Hamas, because they say all the land of greater Israel, which includes the West Bank and Gaza, is Israel. So if you want to look at who is fanatic, Israel is fanatic as well as Hamas is fanatic. So it's not really just the fault of Hamas in this regard. Roger Shahada, thank you so much. Thank you. Roger Shahada is based in Ramallah, and I spoke with Ruth Margulet in Tel Aviv.

You can find both of their writings on Israeli politics and Palestinian politics at New Yorker.com. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, and I'm David Remner. Thanks for listening today. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garvis of Tune Arts. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supposed to be a co-production. supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.