The New Yorker Radio Hour - Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, and Comedian Pete Holmes

Episode Date: May 3, 2019

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand been fierce on the issue of sexual assault and harassment, especially in the military and government; as a champion of the MeToo movement, she was among the first Democrats to call for Senator Al Franken to step down. Some in the Party, she has claimed, are still angry with her over it, and have withheld donating to her campaign. Gillibrand tells David Remnick that her experience as a female politician will be a strength if she were to face Trump in the general election. “My first two opponents were in a 2-to-1 Republican district, who demeaned me, and name-called me, and tried to dismiss me. And not only did it make my candidacy relevant, but it made it got a lot of people deeply offended, and they wanted to know who I was and why I was running.” Trump’s “Achilles heel,” she says, “is a mother with young children who’s running on issues that . . . families care about. His kryptonite is a woman who stands up for what she believes in and doesn’t back down.” Plus, a visit to “Interfaith Alley” at New York’s Kennedy Airport with the comedian Pete Holmes, who lost his evangelical faith but not his passion for the way religions give life meaning. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

From One World Trade Center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of the New Yorker and WNYC Studios. One that's gathered here today, thank you for being here. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand launched her presidential campaign outside the Trump Hotel in Manhattan, attacking the president in front of one of his gold-lettered buildings. It's not a bad way to get some attention. Our president is a coward. That is not what we deserve. That is not what you deserve.

Jilla Brand is not so well known outside of New York. She represented a congressional district upstate, and she came to the Senate in 2009, filling Hillary Clinton's former seat. Ever since, she's been fierce on the cause of sexual assault and harassment and a champion of the Me Too movement. She was one of the first to call on Senator Alvinan, Franken to step down, and some in her party, she says, are still absolutely furious with her over it.

In other ways, Gillibrand's policies have, let's say, evolved. Her A rating from the NRA some years back is now a solid F. And like other centrist Democrats in the race, she's taking pains to emphasize her support for progressive policies like Medicare for All. I reached Kirsten Gillibrand in Washington last week. Senator, we now know that Robert Mueller was not exactly thrilled by the handling of his report by the Attorney General. And he felt that he had been, if we can summarize it, distorted at best. What do you feel about it and how do you now feel about the case for impeachment? Well, I am deeply concerned and I've been concerned with how Attorney General Barr handled the Mueller report overall. You have to remember, the first thing he

did that he shouldn't have done is issue the four-page summary. And that's what Mueller responded to, saying, your summary did not represent our conclusions. The second thing that Barr did was he held that press conference, where he again reframed what the Mueller report said. And then third, he then produced finally the Mueller report in a highly redacted form. So I think the way Attorney General Barr has handled himself. Now, that we have this letter that Mueller sent to Barr, and we have Barr's testimony after he received that letter saying, oh, he didn't know what Mueller thought of his summary, I think he himself acted inappropriately, and I actually don't see how he can lead the department, and I believe he

should resign. You believe he should resign? I do. I think he has intentionally misled the public, and for him to go to Congress and say, I don't know what Mueller thinks of my summary, I think is an outright lie. I don't think you can have an attorney general who has purposely misled Congress. Now, how is this making you feel about impeachment in general? Because you've cut a fine line so far. I'm not against impeachment. I just believe there should be a process. And I don't think the American people have had an opportunity to read the Mueller report. I think the facts that are in that report need to be elucidated through hearings so that the American people can follow along and fully understand what facts Mueller found and what this president actually did that would

support an obstruction of justice indictment or an obstruction of justice based impeachment proceeding. But I can tell you, I have been traveling across the country and people are not asking about the Mueller report. They believe that Washington is broken. They believe there's enormous political corruption. They think that the powerful decide everything in Washington and the moneyed interest decide everything. They believe the special interests get their way no matter what. They look at the Koch brothers.

They see that they can spend $300 million in an election just for a lower tax rate and they get what they pay for. And so the truth is I'm running on publicly funded elections because the problem is bigger than just the allegations against President Trump for obstruction of justice. The problem is deep-seated, has been in place for a very long time, and we need transparency and accountability that takes on the entire political infrastructure. That's why I issued legislation yesterday to talk about how we have publicly funded elections, how we actually get money out of politics and restore the power to the hands of the people. Senator, millions of voters who had voted for Barack Obama then turned around and voted for Donald Trump. How do you connect with those people? And what is your sense, as somebody from upstate New York, where a lot of those voters were? Why did they do that?

And how can they be brought back in? Easily. And they are brought back in by listening and understanding their concerns. I just won back 18 counties in New York that Trump won. I won it back by going to all 62 counties and doing 18 town halls. I didn't spend money on television. I just listened and actually respect. responded by helping those communities. What they're worried about is health care. They are so worried that their children will not have access to the medicine they need or the life-saving care they need or the treatment they need because some insurance company doesn't want to cover them because they have a pre-existing condition. They're worried about the education system. They are fearful that their local public school is crumbling, doesn't have the support that they need and isn't going to give a chance to their kid to have any part of they

American dream. They're worried about themselves. Our unemployment rate may well be 4%, but I can tell you, the underemployment rate is skyrocketing. People do not make enough money to meet the needs of their families, period. And that's why I'm running on dealing with underemployment and unemployment, with job training, working with the employers to develop the coursework and apprenticeship programs, using the community colleges and state schools to actually train for the jobs in your region that pay higher than what you're earning right now. Is there a world in which all this legislation that you're talking about can get through a Congress that is really characterized by, in the Senate, Mitch McConnell?

Yes. So despite Mitch McConnell, I passed 18 bills in the last Congress. The way I did that was I found common ground with Republican colleagues and built from there. getting a Republican member of Congress to help you with rural broadband isn't that hard. That's something that helps lots of states that have rural areas. I passed a piece of legislation for Made in America manufacturing. I could find Republicans who wanted to do that with me. And so, you know, a lot of people in our party, they're just, they're at the edges.

They go to their corners and that doesn't work. You need to find the common ground. And it doesn't mean compromising. It means creating a vision that's bold and robust that you can find people to sign onto. When we repealed, don't ask, don't tell, we didn't say, well, only some people in the gay community are going to be protected. We said, no, this is about making sure the men and women who serve in our country can actually serve and not be denied based on who they love. That if they're willing to die for this country, why would you make it impossible? And the argument that worked for my Republican colleagues might well have been different.

It was, why would you lose a thousand people in mission critical areas? Why would you deny the ability of people to serve based on who they love? Senator, you came to prominence in no small measure because of your vocal support for what became the Me Too movement. And you were very critical of Al Franken and you were the first to come forward and say that he should resign. now you are in a presidential race and you are facing among others Joe Biden. And a lot of women have come forward and said that he made them feel uncomfortable. Is Joe Biden's past behavior disqualifying in your view? I don't think it's disqualifying, but it's certainly something he's going to have to talk about.

Women are going to want to ask him how he feels about this. And that's his job. My job is to talk about my vision for this country, how I'm going to be. going to pass a Green New Deal, how I'm going to pass Medicare for all, how I'm going to pass the job training we need to get more people into the middle class. You're moving to another subject, which is, I understand, but do you find his explanations and his comments about this satisfying to you? I personally don't. And so do you think that he's qualified to be a presidential candidate in light of that? I believe he is qualified, but I also believe this is something he's

going to have to talk about. The Me Too movement is part of a much broader conversation. Me Too was about sexual harassment and sexual assault specifically. What we started after President Trump got elected was a women's movement across the globe. Women started marching to be heard, to be, to have the ability to share their truth, whatever it was. What was so powerful about the march was that women marched on all issues they cared about. Their signs could have said Black Lives Matter. or women's reproductive freedom, or clean air and clean water, or LGBTQ equality, it didn't matter, it just mattered that they wanted to be heard. And that activism has not stopped.

And so if you don't understand what's actually happening and you are dismissing the voices and the views and the values of women, you will not catch fire in this election and you will not be our nominee. And you are not the best person to take on President Trump. I believe I'm the best person to take on President Trump because I do take on the fights no one else will take on. And not only that, I'm successful in those fights. I actually get things done. I move the needle forward on women's rights, on gay rights, on clean air and clean water, on manufacturing, on jobs, on the economy. And I have a track record of doing really bold things on a bipartisan basis, things that were left for dead that no one could pass.

I was able to move the needle. 9-11 health bill sat dormant for seven years. No one had moved it. It had 20 hearings in the House and was going nowhere. It had never been introduced in the Senate, not even a hearing. I took that bill from zero to 100 within one term as a freshman senator. That means you need to reach across the aisle. You need to find the common ground.

You need to lift up people's voices who aren't being heard and you need to fight for them, Whether you're an inner city or a rural red area, they are suffering and they need someone to care. You're in a complicated race. 20 people are in this race of all kinds, which is in some ways an incredibly healthy thing for the Democratic Party, and it's unpredictable as well. Let's skip to the part where you're the nominee. And you're facing Donald Trump in a race and on a debate stage and all the rest. He has proved himself to be willing to say and do practically anything about his opponent. And oftentimes, it's incredibly effective, like it or not. How do you oppose that? How do you run against that? How much do you deflect and how much do you take on directly?

So my story is a bit different than other people who are running. My first two opponents were in a two to one Republican district who demeaned me and name called me and tried to dismiss me. And not only did it make my candidacy relevant, but it made a lot of people deeply offended and they wanted to know who I was and why was I running and why is he hitting her that way? Why is he saying those things about her? I don't think it works. I believe that for President Trump, his Achilles heel is a mother with young children who's running on issues that people care about and that families care about.

I think his kryptonite is a woman who stands up for what she believes in and doesn't back down. I don't believe he will be effective against me because I will dismiss him in the way I would anybody who is acting like a child would, acting like a child who is spoiled and wants their way no matter what.

And if he starts to name call or he starts to glower over me in a debate, I will say, please go back to your place. Your spot is over there. It's my turn to talk now, and you will wait your turn, because that's how I would handle an irreverent child who is being a bully. Like, you don't punch a bully in the face.

It actually doesn't work. You know, if you want to get in a fight with a pig and you want to get into the mud with a pig, the pig has fun and you get dirty, and no one looks good. Senator, I'm grateful for your time, and I wish you well on the campaign trail. Thank you so much.

Oh, God bless. Take care. Take care. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. I spoke with her last week. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour and still to come and we'll go to church, more than one church actually, with a comedian Pete Holmes, whose new book is about comedy and spirituality. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Andrew Morantz writes about a lot of heavy stuff for us, politics, the regulation of hate speech on the internet, the rise. of the far right in politics.

And maybe because of all that, he's also something of an expert on comedy. He'd have to be. Recently, he got together with the comedian Pete Holmes, who created and starred an HBO series crashing. So I don't know if you can tell by my overall vibe, I am a friendly fellow. Kind of guy that likes to get to the airport

a couple hours early, get a few white wines in me and start telling old people they still got it. So I think I first saw Pete Holmes do stand. end up like 10 or 12 years ago. And on a bill like that, he stood out. A, he's a big tall guy. He has referred to himself as looking like a lesbian Val Kilmer. That's his description.

But it wasn't just how he looked. He had this kind of wholesome, almost clean comedian vibe. I don't feel like I belong in comedy. People going out drinking slippery American cocktails having sex after. I don't belong in the nightclub scene. Look at me. This face doesn't. How are you doing? Fixed your taillight while you were sleeping. No charge. That's...

I don't belong in a comedy club. I like to think that there are millions and millions of different universes, each slightly different from the last. And this universe, the one we're all in currently is the only one where I'm not a youth pastor? Does that resonate with you? I shouldn't be on a fancy... So Pete actually grew up very strongly evangelical, and he went to a Christian college. He had very strong faith for a lot of the early part of his life. And a lot of what he's written since is about losing that faith.

He wrote a HBO show called Crashing that was about losing his faith. He has a book out now called Comedy Sex God that it's not alleging that he is a comedy sex god. It's about comedy, sex, and God. And, you know, this is an unusually earnest subject for a contemporary stand-up comedian. He remains really interested in not only, Christianity but mystical forms of Buddhism and Hinduism. He's now embraced this very kind of all-encompassing curiosity about all types of faith. Nice to see you. You too. Sorry, I'm late. So he was in town recently promoting his book, and he was about to take a red eye back to L.A. where he lives, and so we decided to

just meet up at JFK. There's no part of JFK that's devoted to comedy or sex, but there is actually a god part of JFK. There are these four chapels in Terminal 4. Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim, and just, you know, given his background, Pete was drawn right away to the Protestant one. Oh, look, the Christ, the cross is an airplane. Oh, yeah, on the outside, little humor. That's what we're known for. Okay. And then you'll notice the cross as Jesus was, because that's the Protestant thing.

Right. The Catholics leave them up there, which the more I study, the more I'm like, that's, I think that's right. It's like, look at the suffering. Also, it would just be like too. on the nose twilight zone to have Jesus strapped to the plane. Giant plane-sized Jesus? Yeah. That sounds like something, there's like a bar in Japan called giant plane-sized Jesus.

I think we just disturbed that woman with our laughing. Oh, no. All right, let's do the... Keep walking. Keep walking. Keep walking. Keep walking. Sorry. This is...

Oh, this is the Catholic one. Our Lady of the Skies. Perfect for an airport. Yeah, let's go in. Let's pop in, yeah. We're going very graven image. Yeah. This has God been the most graven of all of them.

You just want to say graven? No, I remember as a kid being like, I think the first commandment, well, it depends how you do the commandments, but one of either one or two is make no images of me. And I was like, I feel like people do that a lot. Right. It's actually one of my favorite Alan Watts quotes. It sort of gets to the heart of that as, I don't want to call these idols, but whenever you have a carved image of God, whether it's Buddha or anybody,

That is so easy to idolatize, tries, I think. Yeah, sure. Make into an idol. But he says the far more dangerous idol are ideas, not to get too serious right off the bat. But I do think that's what's gone wrong in religion is a very ego-driven clan mentality. I joke in the book that it's like wearing a Patriots sweatshirt or something. You know you belong and your beliefs are right. Right.

And that gives you that sort of warm, cozy Super Bowl parade feeling. but that's not what it's about. What Alan Watts is saying is that it's about an inner transformation. And I feel like mystics from any tradition would agree with that. I mean, actually, it's funny because you make a point in the book about not being into sports, but then you do a lot of sports. I do a lot of sports. Because life is, it is a wonderful little microcosm of life.

Because imagine a sport without a clock, that's just life. And that is the sports comparison that I like most in the book, is that when a player who was on the Yankees comes back as a Red Sox, they cheer for him. And even as a kid, I felt something sort of magic, what I would now call third way awareness, both and awareness. That's Johnny Damon. He is a Yankee, and he was a Red Sox player.

So we're going to, like, step outside and appreciate that it's just a person. So this is what I'm talking about. This stuff is just rattling around in his head all the time. Like, we see each other, we walk into the room, Within seconds, he is talking about Christian iconography. He's talking about, you know, the mystic Alan Watts and how a baseball game he went to as a kid is actually an allegory for spirituality. And even the spiritual ramifications of this body swap comedy called Little,

like this movie poster that he sees outside his house. There's so many posters for this movie Little. But I was like, wow, another body swap comedy. Well, why do we love body swap comedies? it's because even like the least spiritual person in the world, deep down has an inkling that who they are is not their packaging. Or what Young would call, now we're getting real fancy, but you know, what he would call the false self. You're not where you're from. You're not your gender. You're not your country. You're not your likes or your dislikes. You're the thing that I see in my daughter, which is just luminous emptiness. It's just basic, pure.

awareness. So there are times, and Pete is self-aware about this, where this stuff verges on three in the morning dorm room kind of conjecture. I get that not everyone has unlimited tolerance for that, and I don't have unlimited tolerance for that. But I think with Pete, this is what he lives with all day. This is what he thinks about. This is what he meditates on. And so even if I wouldn't always end up where he ends up on some of these questions, I do think pursuing the questions is certainly worth doing. And we can call that mystery God, but you lose so many. people when you do. I'm just saying one of the main points of the book is that

we woke up in a conundrum and our love of certainty has made us have religious viewpoints certainly that are far too black and white and in or out and right or wrong. We sometimes lose the idea that like

none of us know what's going on. Well so do you ever think... In a beautiful I say that with deep respect to both sides. Sorry, we're doing an interview we're going to leave. No, no, no, no, no, you say, you're taking out. Are you sure? Absolutely. This is what it's worth.

You're welcome, of course. Is this the mosque, I guess? Yeah. Mini-Musk? It says Faith Hodge. It's also closed. Oh, that, yeah, I think just that door. Oh, use the adjacent door.

See, people can't even interpret signs on churches the same way. Exactly. I feel like we should keep moving. Because we can loiter in front of the Protestant one. Oh, and I feel like I could, like, go to sleep in the Jewish one. I feel like I could do whatever. Yeah. That's kind of...

I don't feel chosen enough to go out here. Oh, I got you. I can cover for you, yeah. Different feel. Yeah. This is kind of a cool... This is more like Sephardic style with the round thing in the middle. Oh.

It's much less graven, right? It's like abstract. But to me, this is... These symbols, because I wasn't raised with them, feel like they don't want me. No disrespect to my Catholic friends, but it feels a little bit more, like I can say, balls in here. I think you have to. As he goes on about this stuff, you can sometimes forget that he is still a comedian. But I do think it's really intimately connected.

His impulse to kind of bring people together around questions of the mysteries of the universe. For him, it's very relatable to the impulse to get on a stage and make people laugh. think he thinks of them as the same kind of thing that really animates all of his thinking. Because one thing that occurs to me is that there seems to be a wave of people in comedy, you being one of them, who want to, like, no, I want to do things in a way that isn't injuring people and is, like, respectful to the world. Right. Because there's this old attitude that I heard being expressed a lot more in the past that was,

fuck him if they can't take a joke. And, like, what it is to do comedy is to flout social rules and to be the bad guy and the rebel. and so by definition, if I'm making you cringe, I'm on the right side. And now I see you and all these people who talk openly about how to not injure the world, how to be more sustaining of things. It's tricky because I do defend people's rights to make ugly jokes. Because, again, I have a hang-up for getting attached to our own purity. So it's always a good idea in my experience to sit in the middle.

Like, let's look to the future. have a lot of content out there. Is there a world where somebody finds something modern day, 2034 Unwoke that I sat on my talk show and I can't host the 97th annual Oscars? I'm sure there's more than that. Yeah, probably. So what are we going to do? I just think it's really, really helpful to sit in the middle with everything. Is the Bible true? Is it a myth? Well, yeah, sure. Is there a God or is there nothing? Yeah. Are we, are we, are we, are we, human or are we souls. It's so

liberating. It doesn't get many clicks. And that's okay. Not going for clicks. Pete Holmes' new book is called Comedy, Sex, God. He visited Interfaith Alley at Kennedy Airport with the New Yorkers Andrew Moran's, and they stopped by all four places of worship there, Protestant, Catholic,

Jewish, and Muslim. I'd like to think that the exclusion of Eastern Faith were not sad, but because they asked them and they were like, we're good. I think you have what now? Four rooms? All right. Hope that's working out for you. I'm David Remnick, and that's it for now. Join us next time on the New Yorker Radio Hour, and until then, have a great week.

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