The New Yorker Radio Hour - Spike Lee and Denzel Washington on a Reunion Making “Highest 2 Lowest”

Episode Date: August 15, 2025

Spike Lee and Denzel Washington first worked together on “Mo’ Better Blues,” released in 1990. Washington starred as a trumpet player trying to make a living in jazz clubs; Lee, who directed the film, also played the musician’s hapless manager. They later worked together on “Malcolm X” and other films, but it has been nearly twenty years since their last collaboration, the hugely successful “Inside Man.” So the new film “Highest 2 Lowest” is something of a reunion. “I’ve become a better director, working with Mr. Denzel Washington,” Lee tells David Remnick. “It’s not about just what’s on the script.  It has to be deeper than that.” “Highest 2 Lowest” is an adaptation of a 1963 movie by Akira Kurosawa, who has been a major influence on Lee. “The script came to me first,” Washington explains. “I hoped that Spike would be interested in it, so I called him up. He said, ‘Send it to me.’ He read it. He said, ‘Let’s make it,’ and here we are.” Washington plays a music mogul targeted in a ransom plot; the feature is a crime drama with a message. “This film is about morals, and what someone will do and won’t do,” Lee says. The audience “will ask themselves, ‘If you’re in this situation, would you pay the ransom?’ ”   New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Spike Lee and Denzel Washington first worked together in 1990. They were relatively early in their careers, and the movie was More Better Blues. Washington starred as a trumpet player, scrambling to make a living in jazz clubs, and Lee played his manager. Gee? You're doing a half-ass job, man. You okay the deal.

You told me to get you the dog, and I did. I got you the best turns possible at the time. You understand if you do it on the back and down the line. Well, this is down the line. And I'm working on it. Well, you ain't working hard enough. I think you're taking advantage of you. How can you say that?

We grew up together. I'd rather chop off my left hand and take advantage of you. You're my boy. Hey, look, this is about more than friendship, gee. I'm breaking my friggin' neck to you. Does it look like I'm rich? Washington and Lee, actor and director, have collaborated with some frequency,

Malcolm X and many other films. But Inside Man, the last film together was almost two decades ago. So highest to lowest is kind of a reunion. Washington plays a music mogul targeted in a kidnapping and ransom plot. And the film is inspired by Akira Kurosawa's film High and Low from 1963. Last week, I had a chance to talk with Spike Lee and Denzel Washington. Spike, we spoke a couple of years ago, and you were telling me that for she's got a habit, you borrowed from Kurosawa's Rashima, the way different perspectives complicate the narrative and so on.

Why did you go to high and low as kind of source material and inspiration for the new movie? Well, first of all, I got to ask to it, but my brother right here, Denzel Washington, that's how this whole thing happened. It was a gift given me by Mr. Washington. we had not a last film we worked before that was Inside Man which was like

how many years? 19 years before but here's the thing though I was amazed when I was told that number because time flies and I just never thought

I did not know that been that long and I had hoped that I worked with Denzel again because Insight Man was our most profit It is called show business. I've heard that. I've heard that.

And another thing I'd like to say is like, we'd have to, we'd learn how we work together. Really? No. It was like the next day. You know, we had that relationship. And so I know I've used the word blessing a lot. I'm going to say it again. It was a blessing.

I've read your long list of best films. And Corasawa is one of the directors that really stands out there for multiple films on it. These are things that you've loved since being at NYU. Why high and low, the story, essentially a business story, amazingly about the shoe business in Kurosawa? Well, we made it adjust with that. Yeah, I saw that. It's about this film, to me, is about morals and what someone will do and won't do. Right.

and I believe when this film opens August 15th Friday go in the movies be in the theater don't see it in your house I would I know that they will put themselves in the place

yeah what would you think the character that David King is they will ask themselves if you're in the situation would you pay the ransom would you pay how much much would you pay? And the audience is going to put themselves in that situation. Denzel, have you ever said no to Spike Lee when he's tried to cast you?

Never tried to cast me. How do you mean? We don't work for each other. So how does it work? In this case, the script came to me first. I knew this was the story that Spike. I hope that Spike would be interested in. So I called him up.

He said, sent it to me. He read it. He said, let's make it, and here we are. Here we are. Quick is all that. It was that simple. Yeah. Benzo Washington is Benzel Washington, and there are certain figures in this industry that.

And we made almost a quarter of a billion dollars on the last picture we did together. So it was good business. You know, it's not rocket science. You're talking inside man? Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Now, over time, there have been lots of, well, a fair number of directors.

and actors who have had long associations. In fact, Corosawa had one with Tishiro Mofune, and De Niro has one with Scorsese, Hitchcock, and Jimmy Stewart. Tell me a little bit about... And Al Pacino. That's right. Tell me about working together for the first time and how that relationship has evolved.

I sent Denzel's script, and that was it. When I started acting, two or three actors that I followed, De Niro, Offman, Pacino, the filmmakers that made those films never called me. I was never asked to be in any of their films. So when Spike called me, we developed a relationship and we made our own films. So when I was in a position to return a favor to Spike that he started by calling me with Mo Better, I said, hey, I'm calling a guy who called me and who can tell a New York story as well as any of the other New York storytellers.

Did you feel iced out by those directors? I don't care. I don't care. Worked out all right. It did. But I hear something in your voice that's... You hear God in my voice. I fear God, not man. I can care man. I can care less what man thinks about what I've done or about what I'm doing. So wherever I go, from this day forward,

you remember that God is leading me, not the industry, not Apple, not interviews, not interviewers, not Spike Lee, not this world. I'm being led by the Almighty, and that's what's most important to me. What sense do you make of where God is leading you as an artist? Toward what end, to fulfill what goals?

To lead more souls to our Heavenly Father. That's what I'm here for. As a human being and as an artist. As a human being, and as a human being. The platform is film, but that's not the purpose for me, personally. How is collaborating changed as your careers have grown? I've become a better director. working with Mr. Denzel Washington.

What he does, there's a scene in this film. The scene where Jeffrey Wright is really big, and his character is on his knees. Big. Dental's character paid his ransom, $17.5 million. And it's really a scene where it's heartbreaking.

And at the end of the scene, then so picked up a grenade which is a prop that is not in the script he grabbed this grenade said you know sometimes I feel like blowing this motherfucker up it's not about

just on the script it has to be deeper than that has to be deeper than that how much do you discuss when do you see that grenade when did you see the grenade? I don't even remember I don't even remember

with, be honest, speaking. You don't remember that moment, Denzel? I remember picking it up, yeah. How much do you discuss scenes ahead of time and how much do you leave it to chance and improvisation? I mean, what we do is that we have a reading. Before that, we're auditioning. It's a lot of times we audition actors.

You know, we see there's something, you know, we're going to have to fix this part in the script. Because up to that point, but we haven't heard the lines read there's a hundred percent I got to tell young filmmakers read the script

is not the same as hearing the words they're written it is day and night and so over my career I've had to do a lot of rewriting during auditions because what was written

and I'm talking about stuff that I wrote too and so when Dennis and I auditioned to people you know we'll both say you know we got to change that line You know, it's the process. And then.

Then Spike hired great actors. He hired. Yeah, I hired great actors because I know if we got, don't get mad, we got Jordan here, we're not going to have some okey-doches, Rudy Pooke around him. You got to have a Pippet. Horace Brett, you know, you got to have surround a team.

There you go. A team. Somebody that knocked me out as an actor, and this is A. Sap Raki. Ain't this, son. Sorry? I got your full attention now, huh? You finally listening to me? Yeah, I'm listening.

Good. You know you got the wrong boy, right? Yeah, it's so I've heard. And I also learned you can never trust the help. But luckily for me, it was never about the boy. It was always about you. Well, I'm fair enough, but if it's about me, then you can't expect me to pay $17.5 million for somebody else's son if it's about me.

But in his blood is going to be on your hands then. How you want it? No, man, come on now. This ain't no fucking negotiation. That's a day of reckoning. You're not God no more, iron. All right? Listen, God give you everything you want, right?

No, God give you everything you need. So the question is, what are you need? How can I help? You ain't saying I'm God, but I can help. And there's one scene where they're separated by a panel of glass. It's an amazing scene. and it shot with the two characters in profile with this prism effect

representing the glass between them Spike, talk a little bit about that just as a piece of filmmaking and the technical side of it and the imaginary side of it. Yeah, we had to go to that's from the original. I mean, that's one of the highlights of course I was filmed high and low.

And I always shoot with two cameras. I always shoot with two cameras. and I never done this before so we have Denzel and it's Iraqi as you said separated by glass and then they're profile and so

what we did we had two dollies that were attached so they moved at the same exact time or the two cabs the dollies were attached and they were attached I've never done that before

and they were like they were on either side of what was supposed to be the glass. Yeah, we had two cameras like the glass is right here. In the middle. Okay. In the middle. I mean, you had another scene before that in the recording studio, which would turn into a rap battle. Here's the thing. I'm going to tell these. Don't tell this to you. Again, my brother surprised me because it was not,

it wasn't the script. So we're going on it. You improvised the rap battle? Well, it wasn't. It was badly written. So, D. Improvised. He kills, he comes out with, brutalized it.

With Nyes is an elmatic. He's pissing in the elevator. The crap game used to support valleys in the Z. And I got to give credit to ASM Rocky because he was there right. He was there right with it. So even though it wasn't scripted, he was ready. And then finally, as an line says, what is this?

A rap back. I didn't know that was going to happen. A-Sat was rolling with it. And it lifted that scene, too. Which is why I called Spike, trust. I trust Spike completely. I didn't even know the way he was shooting it. I'm learning today that because I wasn't there for that.

He was handling that, and we were battling. And we had that over five years, over five films and whatever, of the amount of years it's been that shorthand and I completely 1,000% trust Spike and I do what I I do my part and he does the rest and I don't like to say you know I trust my brother here's a thing though David isn't I mean we work together it's not a lot of discussion like it's like it's like it's something's just this relationship we built up for how many years over five films. And you say, we could say, that's Scorsese and De Niro.

You know, that's the great C. Little Mett, Marty's great too, but C. Lema and Al Pacino. And there's Francis with Randall, and the Godfather and Apocryms Now. And when you have that, it's like a great band. We're all playing the same parts, but, you know, it's not something that's disgusting.

It's a feeling. And it takes over time, you know, I mean, it's very rare you're going to have that from the jump. That's just, 35 year old, 35 year overnight sensations. So it's, it's, it's hard to explain. I know people might think of some type of magic or voodoo, whatever you want to call it. But it's being human beings. That's the best way I could explain that. I was going to say, and like those other relationships,

Scorsese and the other filmmakers and actors that he talked about, those films were in the theater. So I would ask all of my followers and Spike Lee's followers to follow us to the theater on Friday. The movie opens Friday, August 15th. Here's the thing, though. Again, I know it might be more convenient to sit home and you live on your big, big-ass TV. But it's not the same experience as going to a theater.

I remember going to the Ziegfield. Who, I love going to Zickfield. What I saw, I mean, and it's a shame, it's a ballroom now. But when a big film came out, you went to the Ziegfield, and the theater is packed, and there's energy and it's like there's nothing like it. No, it's amazing. I think a great sport event too, but to go to a pack day, I've never

seen jaws, ailing, close encounter. I mean, I mean, like, I waited two hours in the freezing cold to see the X-S. Remember the Paramount Theater? I do.

It was being called the circle. We had the right go down. I saw the X's there. Two hours. It must have been two degrees. people were screaming you hear people vomiting you can't get that at home hey so go to the theater Friday and vomit

everybody Friday go to your awful theater and throw up no don't throw it to somebody else don't plug your souls yeah I'm speaking with Spike Lee and Denzel Washington

more in a moment Denzel I spoke a while back to Judy Dench And like you, she's spent a lot of time performing Shakespeare, and she told me something really surprising and interesting. She said that playing a role like M in the James Bond movies was as hard for her as being on stage in a Shakespeare tragedy. What do you think? No, Shakespeare plays much harder.

Tell me why. Well, the actor, well, because iambic pentameter to begin with. Her father loved me, often invited me, still questioned me the story of my life from year to year, the battle siege, sieges, fortunes that I have passed. I ran it through even for my boyish days at the very moment he bad me tell it, or when I spake of most disastrous chances of moving accidents by a flood and field of hair, rescape's name and a deadly breach of being taken by the insulin foe and sold to slavery.

That's harder than yo. But also, film, you stop and start. You don't have that on the stage. But that's what Judy. That's what she thought, right? She did. Okay. She did.

Spike, I came back from the screening of this movie. movie, and I told a friend of mine who works here, who's a musician, that one of the great parts of the movie was the chase scene, and it's propelled by the Puerto Rican Day parade music of Eddie Palmieri. And the Salsa Orchestra. Oh, it's fantastic. And then, as I was telling him this, Eddie Palmieri probably died that's very same day, because the next day I read his obituary. Huge loss, big loss for the culture, for the world, for the world. But that's something you've, forever, you think a lot about is the propulsion of these movies, through music and through... And driven, driven by the music.

Tell me about thinking about that and conceiving that for a movie, to make it move. It's a very, it's two words, three words. The French connection. The chase scene. That scene is from the French connection. When you say that, what are you going to be? The style of it? Yeah, I mean, the whole, the whole, first of all, the, the, the,

The big scene in high and low is the scene where they have to dump the money. Because I really had to show that young Dellen was not just some dog. He's smart. Well, NYPD, you know, they're going to catch your ass. So he's thinking, how am I going to orchestrate, uh-oh, how can the orchestra this drop? of 17.5 million in Swiss francs and a Michael Jordan jumpman black backpack and not be caught.

So, looks at the calendar, oh, the hated Boston Redside's gonna be a Yankee Stadium. That was cold. It's still the afternoon game. This is why I called, Spike. That was cold. So that's not enough. So

Number four train, the last stop Jerome Avenue line is 16th, Yankee State. So what happens on a Sunday every year? Puerto Rican Day parade. So right away, I'm going, I went to the blue note

to see Eddie Palieri. And I told him, you got to do it. He said, good. But I said Eddie, word can't get out. It has to be surprised. This has to be. be on the low on the low.

So in post production, I need another song. He said, okay, I got you, Spine. He said, I got you, Spine. He said, I'm telling a song, and the title is on the low. You said he performed them like the songs. Yeah, and then, thank you, Dee. Also, that was not the playback. We

win seven, six, seven takes. So every time we did it, they performed it live from beginning to end. Then we have Anthony Rainbows and Roryl Perez two famous bauwikos. Boricua. Borequia. Boreco. Borequia.

Borequia. Borequia. Borequia. Borequia. No, you say Boliqua. Boiqua. That's not that. But we recruited.

And then we recruited as many Boerikus as we can find in the Bronx. Puerto Rican, Malaysians. Yeah, I got it. There being the crowd, we hand out the Port Rican flags. So it was a joyous, joyous day. Smartest thing I ever did, calling Spike Lee. Spike, one last question. What do you want more in life?

Best director, Oscar, or a Knicks championship? Nick's champion. I said this already. Oh, Lord. I said, two Oscars. I'll get one away. We haven't won't since the December 2, 73 Cs. We only got two.

How many Lakers got? Don't ask him that. Let me see. Listen, I'm from New York. Stop now. Come on. And how long have seen it take us with Lakers on? Every since McHale closed line, Rambers.

I was at that game covering it. Oh, Miss 15. Oh, man. All right, David. Thank you all. David, thank you. Take care. I spoke with Spike Lee and Denzo, Washington, last week,

and highest to lowest opened in case you missed the date. Oh, you didn't know? Now I'm... Oh, August 15. Friday. Yes. It's in theaters now. I'm David Remnick, and that's our program for today.

Thanks for joining us. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts. with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Walton, Adam Howard, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer. With guidance from Emily Boutin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable,

Alex Parrish, Victor Gwan, and Alejandra Deccat. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.