The New Yorker Radio Hour - Spike Lee on His “Dream Project,” a Joe Louis Bio-Pic

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

The director Spike Lee looked back at the length and breadth of his career so far during a sit-down with David Remnick at the New Yorker Festival. Although Lee’s storied filmography may be familiar to movie buffs, few are likely to know as much about his humble beginnings as the scion of a celebrated, but often unemployed, musician—the late Bill Lee. The young Spike Lee bore some resentment toward his father, an upright-bass player who eschewed countless gigs because he refused to play an electric bass guitar. “[I]t wasn’t until later that I saw that, yo, this is his life. He was not going to play music that he didn’t want to play.” As an artist in his own right, Lee has taken a similar approach to filmmaking. He has tackled a myriad of genres and difficult subject matter, without sacrificing his unique voice and social consciousness to satisfy Hollywood. “Some things you just can’t compromise,” he told Remnick. Now in his fourth decade as a filmmaker, Lee hopes to one day make a long-gestating bio-pic about Joe Louis and have his career last as long as that of one of his idols. “Kurosawa was eighty-six!” the sixty-six-year-old Lee said, of the Japanese filmmaker’s retirement age. “I have to at least get to Kurosawa.” Plus, the sports writer Louisa Thomas talks with the New Yorker Radio Hour’s Adam Howard about the stars to watch in the N.B.A.’s new season. Share your thoughts on The New Yorker Radio Hour  podcast. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to The New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, in today for David Remnick. If you came of age watching Spike Lee movies as I did, or joints as he likes to call him, you quickly became familiar with his public persona. He was ambitious, uncompromising, and outspoken, and as far as his critics were concerned, maybe a little too outspoken. But Spike Lee was a groundbreaking voice, especially for black audiences. Some of us, we got to see the richness and complexity of our lives

portrayed on screen for the very first time watching his films. His 40 years of filmmaking include classics like Malcolm X and do the right thing, several documentaries including a couple about Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans, and recent favorites like Black Klansman and Defive Bloods. And he's still making movies destined to stir the pot. The subject of his latest project, former NFL quarterback Colin Kaepernick, classic Spike Lee. Thank you, thank you.

Can I say something first before we start? It's Brooklyn in the house. Oh, now we can start. David Remnick sat down the other day with Spike Lee at the New Yorker Festival. They began talking about Spike's father, the bassist and composer Bill Lee, died at age 94 this year. In his time, your dad was the bass player that everybody wanted to play with.

It's an amazing thing. Duke Ellington, Billy Holiday, Aretha Franklin. He played on It's All Over Now, Baby Blue, with one Bob Dylan, John Lee Hooker, everybody. He was also... First album, Gordon, Leifold, first album by Simon and Garfunkel. He's on Puff the Magic Dragon. He's on bass with Peter Paul and Mary. So my father was the top folk basses, but his bass is bass, I mean, this thing was jazz.

And when Bob Dylan went electric, everybody went electric. and people want to continue to work with my father, but he didn't want to play electric bass. He wanted to continue playing upright. He was a traditionalist. So my mother, who every week he used to shop at Bloondale's on Saxville Avenue, that had to stop. Because there was no money coming into the house

because my father refused to play electric bass. So mother had to work. She started teaching at St. Anne's. in Brooklyn Heights. What was your relationship like with your father? It got complicated at times. Talk about that. Growing up and seeing the way my mother was working and coming home and cooking and cleaning

for five crazy kids. And my father would just be at this piano and just write music. But it wasn't until later that I saw that, you know, this is his life. You know, he was not going to play music that he didn't want to play. That was great that we were able to work. work together and and that conviction he had you know I've I've taken a lot of that that

some things just can't compromise what was it like to work with him on on films he did the music for I don't know if several he did all my student films and she's to have it school days do the right thing and Mo Better Blues what happened was is that my father

did not believe in technology so when you're doing a score all right this scene, Daddy, is two minutes long. And only two minutes long, yeah. And we go in the studio, it's like, what are you doing? So that's when I had to bring in Terrence Blanchard, the great composed. But Terrence Blanchard played with Brammerstallis on school days, on Duterox.

And Mobeda, a metal blues, when you see Denzel playing, that's Terran's playing, you see, what's his nice playing horn, that's Bramphorne. More better blues Well tell me what it was like growing up in your house Was the discussion of music and art at forefront Anybody has seen the film Crooklyn That is autobiographical So that was our house

TV off We lived in a very artistic household So Thank God our parents We're like They said whatever you want to do just be good at it. So it wasn't like

Steering away from the arts. I think a lot of times when it comes to the arts, parents kill their children's dreams. Because art, you know, we're not spent all this money

so you could make pottery, you know, or a poet or something. You know, you'd be a lawyer, doctor, whatever you want. So it was just natural

that we would be in art, but it doesn't, it wasn't, Drund in our head. My mother was taking me to movies a little. My father hated Hollywood movies, so that was my mother's date. What would you take you to see?

What first excited you on the screen? James Bond. My mother was a big Sean Connery. I love James Bond. My name is Pussy Galore. Was there, do you remember what movies started that were maybe a little on the higher on the food?

chain artistically than James Bond. Not that there's anything wrong with Goldfinger, but that you saw and you saw, ah, that that's something I might want to do. That didn't happen to, that didn't happen to college, went to Marles College and Leonard George that had the choose a major.

So I chose mass medications was film, TV, print journalism, and radio. That takes in a lot of area. Mass medications. But film is what, I feel film chose me not the other way around. But, you know, If you want to be a writer, forget the economics of it, you need a pencil.

To be a film director, you need a whole bunch of other people, you need equipment, you need money, you need backing, and you need to be, to some degree, you need to be Napoleon. You've got to lead all these people. What in your personality drew you to being a film director as opposed to a novelist or a poet or a painter or whatever? Why did you express yourself through that? Because film encompassed all those things you just nailed the you just talked about. I did my student films undergrad and I knew I wanted to be a filmmaker and I knew that that whole thing and moving out to LA, flying to LA and working way up for the mail room doesn't work for black people.

So I'm going to be in it. I'm going to go to film school. Yeah. And at NYU Film School, who were you listening to? What are you watching that's starting to startle you and help you become you? What are you watching and listening to? Everything. And that's, I really thank NYU grad at Film School for introduced me to World Cinema.

Because a lot of the great filmmakers, you know, even though I've seen some Samurai films, I didn't know, Curtis Sauer made them. So in introduction, the world cinema. I know what the Hollywood stuff is, but once I was introduced to different ways of thinking, different ways of making film, not just the Hollywood system. I think A.O. Scott said that she's got to have it,

and Jim Jarmish's first movie really set off the independent film movement. For me, Jim Jarmich is my hero, because I checked that equipment to him. And so even though Scorsesey went to N. you and all this stone, they weren't there when we were there. So when someone you know, you check equipment to, makes it, then it's doable. So tell me about breaking through, getting, she's got a habit, was made for $150,000? $175,000.

Where'd you get the money? Well, I was doing crowdfunding before there was crowdfunding. I had a pen in hand, postcards, and a stamp. Remember postcards? When was the last time you lit the stamp? And I just... Postcards, everybody knew to help me get money.

But what we did was... In other words, you're hitting up your parents' friends? Anybody knew. Take me through the stages of getting through... From the imagination to into a movie theater and all of a sudden I go to a theater and I see, wow, this is something absolutely new. Well, it...

It always killed me. But I had great, great people. around me who believed in this dream. One of my classmates, I went to John Dewey High School, Coney Island, and his mother just died. And in the insurance, he got $10,000. And he said, take it. I said, no guarantee, take it.

And once the film became a hit, he bought a brownstone and four green. And it's still collecting checks. and that film came out in 1986. So he got a brownstone a very good, good, good, good, good price. He certainly did. And where does this story come from? Had you been writing it?

She'd have it? Yeah, she's got it. It really, the concept really comes from Roshimon. The great film by the great Japanese director, Akira Kurosawa, where a rape happens and you see all these different characters get their version of that incident. And this is not going to

It's not It's not It's not Nohurt or Yeahamia or Kikin or Ikani or Iksa or

This is One to flip it So three men Speak to the camera And get their version Of who they think Nolodon is Who's having

A sexual relationship All three All these three men at the same time What about Nolodon? I thought she was a freak, you know, freaky-dicky. You asked why I can't see her. I'm not crazy. You, I think your career exploded even more with do the right thing.

Mookie. What? How come we got no brothers up on a wall? Man, ask Sal, right? Hey, hey, Sal, how come to get no brothers upon a wall here? You want brothers on a wall? Get your own place. You can do what you want to do.

You can put your brothers and uncles and nieces and nephews, your stepfather, stepmother, See? But this is my pisserie. American Italians are the wall only. Take it easy. Huh? You. Yeah, that might be fine, Sal, but you own this. Rarely do I see any American Italians eating in here.

All I see is black folks. So since we spend much money here, we do have some set. By that time... That was my third film. Right. In 1980s? 89. 89.

And by that time, was it... a hell of a lot easier to get financing or you're finding Hollywood still a tough nut to break? It was easier, but I still can't get everything I want to make now. So, I mean, unless you're Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, and they're not just to give you a blank check. But I'm not complaining. I'm in my fourth decade as a filmmaker and I'm not slowing down, not stopping. Have you, you've talked in the past about racism in Hollywood and other institutions. Has that changed at all in Hollywood?

and so to what degree? Well, there's many more people, people of color, that are working in Hollywood today in front of and behind the camera, but it's still not necessarily, you know, even playing field. So the struggle continues. Did you feel a special burden

because there was so few visible black directors in the 80s? Is there a special weight on your shoulder in some? In terms of representation? No, I thought it was a... privilege because I was a position to get people careers. I mean, a whole bunch of people came through 40 acres in front of and behind the camera. And I remember we were getting ready to do Malcolm X.

And the teamsters at that point had no black teamsters. So I had a meeting with the guy. I'm not going to say his name. I said, you got to get some black teamsters. We don't have any. Well, I said, you know what? tomorrow the fruit of Islam is going to be driving trucks when they found some black teamsets

they didn't want to mess with the fruit do the right thing was not nominated for Best Picture Award and in the end Danny got it for Best Support an actor Yes yes indeed lost out the Denzel for glory And I got it for Screenplay Dead Poor Society

But it's not for best picture And what one Who knows will be Who's no what film won best picture that year? I do. Driving Miss Daisy. Drive Miss Daisy. What did you feel at that very moment?

Well, let's move many years ahead. Black Klansman. We got nominated for Best Picture for that, but what film won that year? What? Free buck. Yeah, I was like, damn, every time somebody's driving somebody, I lose. when you see one of your films visually, they're incredibly distinctive.

That's not just me. That's the great cinematographer I've had to work with it years, too. So there's something called a double dolly shot? Double dolly shot. I did not invent it. Okay, so double dolly shot, for those of you don't know,

but if you saw it and I was smart enough to have a film of it, you'd know right away. It's when the center figure is kind of still and the background is moving very quickly and it's very disorienting. They're floating. And what is it? Tell me about it.

it technically and what are you using it for what is it what is it meant to do emotionally to the viewer you see it in Malcolm X I mean it's in a lot of films more well Ernest again Ernest Diggerson my brother fellow classmate great cinematographer we were young out of film school and so we're just doing film schoolie shit and then showing off And then Ernest and I say, you know what? We're out of film school. We're out of NYU.

If we use this shot, it has to make sense. It has to be motivated. True story. So we're getting ready to do Malcolm X. And I became somewhat friends with the late great Dr. Betty Shabazz, Malcolm's widow. And she told me that she felt that her husband, Malcolm knew who he's going to be assassinated.

when he went to Audubon ball and we want to be a motto. So when she told me that, that's an earnest, but we got to find a place. So then it hit me. We have a scene where

Malcolm played by the great Denzo Washington. Dee, he's going to the Baltimore Ballroom. I said, that's where we got to do it. And then I said,

we got to use that Sam Cook song a change is coming. And so that song coupled with the circumstances and the double-lay shot that's the best use of it so far that we've done. But we don't, when we do it now has to be motivated.

Sparingly. Yes. Sparingly. Are there any other signature moves that you've either used or abandoned or you think of as part of your film vocabulary? We have a lot of time

of people speaking to the camera. double cuts where we repeat like we might have somebody people hug and we might see them hug twice just try to be innovative with the camera and keep the camera moving

and not just stand now do you find it harder as you get older to come up with new stories new material or does life keep coming at you hard enough so that you're the well as full

no I'm gonna have a wealth a plethora of ideals it's the money you know you gotta you gotta finance that stuff. So that's that's the big burden. Yes. And my dream project is a film called Savas Joe Lewis,

which I co-wrote with the great Bud Schilberg. Bud Schilberg won an Oscar for on the waterfront. But Schilberg is inducted into the boxing hall of fame as a writer. And I got the note, Bud introduced me Kazan. And Bud was at the two Joe Lewis-Schmelin fights. in Yankee Stadium. So this screenplays about the relation between

Joe Lewis and Max Schmachshmell, who was not a Nazi, but he was on the tyranny of Hitler. In your vision of it, who would play those two actors, those two roles, Schmelling and Lewis?

I don't want to jinx it. But I've been, but I co-wrote it with Bud, and for two years, Bud would call me every day. I mean, he was on his deathbed. He would call me. and what kept him alive

was the ideal that we were going to make this film together and he was at Spike you know you've been bud I knew him Spike did you get the money yet I'm working about working about it so I made a promise to butt on his deathbed

and we're going to get this film made one day now you've been doing a lot of documentaries I was honored to have the privilege to briefly be in a couple of them one about New York City and one forthcoming about Colin Kaepernick, and you do this thing, it's really not disconcerting, but nerve-wracking. You put somebody in a chair, and the camera is about two and a half

feet from your face. You agree. And you're, yeah, we'll see. Right now you're doing Colin Kaepernick. How many hours of footage do you have? Just interviews? Just over it, yeah. Hundreds of hours. And it's going to break down to what? Five parts. of each an hour, each an hour and a half, an hour and change. So who sits there and goes through over and over? That's all you?

How collaborative. What I do is that I look at the dailies with the editors and then they go off and do what they do and they show it to me. But it's, you have to, you got to put the work in. You can't fake the fuck. And this document is taking a long time.

Why is that? Story keeps going. He's not coming to the Jets. I hate to talk. tell you. He might not ever play again. This is the most important question I can possibly ask you.

Why don't you organize a team to buy the Knicks? They're not for sale. Yeah, you could do it. And make them better because I got to tell you, I can't take it anymore. I don't know how you do this. We haven't won in 50 years.

The last year was the 72, 73 season. Seasons. But we'll be good this year. A couple of questions. Why are we going to be good this year again? What are the Brooklyn faithful always? Do what the flapperish faithful always say. Wait till next year.

Well, this is the year. This is it. This is the year. From your lips to guys' ears, I want to ask you some collaboration questions. Denzel Washington, what is the quality that you find in him and you bring it out in so many different films? Why is he as great with you? not that he wasn't great in Equalizer 3, which I loved. I got nothing to do with that.

Denzel, in my opinion, is the greatest living actor today. You could feel his power, his sensitivity, his humanity. And he just, the way he carries himself. Like, he's not fucking around. And if you're on the set, whether you, a boom, whatever, that thing, you're not doing your job, he's gonna let you know. He lets you know?

Yeah. How? Spike. That's good. That was good. But you know how I direct Denzel? All right, Denzel. What do you want to do next?

All right. Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah, we'll do it. But he's the goat. You're going to do another one with him? I would love to. You got anything in mind? Not yet, but, uh, well.

Is he too old to be Joe Lewis? Okay. Played Hurricane Colorado. That's right. How long can you do this? You look at Scorsese. Curasawa's 86. Yeah.

I'm 66. Is that the idea? I got at least 20. I got to get the Curasawa. Gotcha. All right. Got to. Spike Lee, thank you so much.

Thank you, thank you. Thank you. David Remedy. Give up a David. Give up a David. Go to make her, Spike Lee. talking with David Remnick at the New Yorker Festival. And if you've been an admirer of Spike Lee's movies over the years,

you're definitely going to want to check out what he considers the list of essential films. There are 95 movies on this list, and some of them are movies you would totally expect to see, like The Godfather and Raging Bull. And of course, there's a few Kurosawa's on there as well. But there's some surprises, too, movies like Mad Max and Kung Fu Hustle, if you can believe it. You can find a link to Spike's list on our website, New Yorker Radio.org. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.

More to come. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm Adam Howard, sitting in for David Remnick, who's away this week. Believe it or not, there are things happening in the world of sports right now, besides the budding romance of Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift. Seriously. The NBA season is starting, and there's a host of stories and subplots to delve into, even if you are not a devoted basketball fan,

although I definitely am. So before this hour is up, I'm going to catch up with staff writer Louisa Thomas. She covers sports for the New Yorker, and I wanted to find out what, and most importantly, who she's watching this season. Louisa, full disclosure, I'm going into this conversation,

a beleaguered and embittered Brooklyn Nets fan. Oh. So clearly my team is not probably going to contend for anything this year, but I am curious that somebody like myself, who maybe their team doesn't have much going on, what are some storylines and personalities that folks should be, you know, keeping tabs on. You know, it's still LeBron James's MBA until he decides otherwise.

You know, LeBron James even tease the idea that he might not come back. He was pretty worn out. He was fallible. He was fallible. He was human. Right. He's going to be turning 39 this year, correct? That's right.

Which in NBA world is sort of a senior citizen. Oh, he's the oldest player in the league. He's not just old. He's the oldest. I know he used to talk about, like, lasting long enough to play with his son, Brani. Do you think that's still something he's realistically hoping to do? Well, you know, that depends on a lot of things, not least Brony. Brani had a really scary cardiac arrest.

He's set to play for USC. And who knows how that figures into James' play this season. He's actually dedicated the season to Brani. But I haven't heard that kind of talk from James or that kind of pressure, certainly. As someone who was recently 39, I wake up hurting for no reason. He has done more than anybody in the game. And as much as anyone in the history of sports, I will say, to kind of spin the resources to do everything he can to put his body in perfect condition. Who do you think is emerging as sort of the would-be error parent to his mantle as sort of the face of the NBA?

I don't think it's fair to say that any person is the next LeBron James, just as it wasn't fair to LeBron James to say that he was the next Michael Jordan. But there are these kind of really thrilling, you know, stars in the league. But we haven't mentioned, I should say, we have not mentioned Nicola Yolkich, who is this, the best player in the world. Oh, sure, sure. Absolutely tremendously weird, tremendous basketball player. He plays the Denver Nuggets. They are the Serbian, right? He is Serbian.

He's from a small town called Sambore. He is really into horse racing, harness racing. Waterpola probably. He's probably in Waterpola. I know that because he's on his water polo passes as part of his arsenal, which is incredible. Everyone knows sort of to be ready at all times to catch the ball and shoot when he is coming up the floor. Yeah, when I watched the NBA playoffs last year, I can't remember the last time I saw a player who just seemed so dominant. And it was sort of just, he was undeniable.

Undeniable is a great word. You just kind of had to witness it. The word that people use the NBA is heliocentricism. The idea is like there's a sun around which, you know, the other planets revolve. And so one player is sort of doing the bulk of the work. someone like Yokic is actually, it doesn't show up in that stat for him because he's actually not a, you know, not a ball hog.

He's actually really fun to watch because it's actually watching someone like with this kind of like galactic brain. And if you sort of just follow him, you know, you sort of start to see things that, you know, you've never seen before. So I think that's even true of a lot of people who have been in the game a long time. That's one of the reasons why Yokic is kind of an exciting player because he's sort of like opening new avenues. And that's exciting.

And one of the players who's making their debut this season and is also being very hyped as potentially sort of a game changer in terms of the way we watch the game, play the game, Victor Wemagnana, if I'm saying that name right. Webignon, yeah. Yeah, can you give us a little bit of background on who he is? Because apparently he's going to be a household name, should he stay healthy?

That's true. Well, always the caveat when we're talking about athletes. Sure. So he's this French kid, child. He's a child. He's a young. He's a kid-child man. And he is, and he's still developing.

So the first thing I'm going to say is that, you know, sometimes you hear the hype around him and you're like, whoa, he's going to be MVP next year. You know, and he is, you know, it will be surprised if he's an all-star because he is really young and he's growing. And that's one of the most exciting things about him. He has this kind of just, he has infinitely long arms. And he is really, really tall. He's like over seven feet tall. and he can dribble, he can shoot off the dribble, which is really unusual for big men. He can play truly positionless basketball.

You know, he is still sort of like learning how to utilize his skill. He's like, you know, one of these Swiss Army knife players who is like, do I use the scissors or do I use the nail file or do I use the knife? And the game is moving really fast. And so he's going to get tangled up sometimes. And he's also very, very, very skinny. So sort of some people like, yeah, I think he described him as a noodle. He's a noodle.

But, you know, he actually. uses that to his advantage because he has this way to sort of a way of slipping into these little spaces, even in the kind of crowd of paint and emerging, you know, up around the rim with the ball. And he sort of like has this kind of hyper agility, which is almost like, it's like there's this looseness to him, which is really fun to watch. As you may know, Spike Lee was on our show earlier. He's notoriously a lifelong Knicks fan. Our dear leader, David Remnick, is also apparently a Knicks fan to his long chagrin. There's so many Knicks fans out there somehow.

Somehow. Is there any reason for them to hope that this year will be any different than the 50 years that have preceded it? I mean, like, what is hope? Exactly. The New Yorker's Louisa Thomas. You can read her coverage of basketball

and a plethora of other sports at New Yorker.com. I'm Adam Howard. David Remnick will be back next week. Thanks for being with us. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbes of Tune Yards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This week's episode was produced with assistance from Catherine Sterling,

Amanda Miller, Nicco Brown, Michael Etherington, and others from the New Yorker Festival. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund.