The New Yorker Radio Hour - Stephanie Hsu on “Everything Everywhere All at Once”

Episode Date: May 10, 2022

“Everything Everywhere All At Once” is in a genre all its own—you could call it sci-fi-martial-arts-family-drama.  Stephanie Hsu plays both Joy, an angsty teen-ager struggling with her immigrant mother, and Jobu, an omnipotent, interdimensional supervillain.  “The relationship between Evelyn and Joy in its simplest terms is very fraught,” Hsu tells Jia Tolentino.  “It’s the story of a relationship of a daughter who’s a lesbian who is deeply longing for her mother’s acceptance … but they keep chasing each other around in the universe and they can just never find one another. Until of course they launch into the multiverse and become nemeses.” New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. The new film, Everything, Everywhere, All at Once, a great title, is one of the first real surprise hits since we've started going back to the theaters. The film is fun, it's heartfelt, and complicated. And it's in a genre all its own. You could call it a sci-fi martial arts family drama. It's about a Chinese-American woman named Evelyn, and she might be the only person who could, can save the universe from an omnipotent, interdimensional super villain. I'm here because we need you.

Very busy today. All the time to help you. There's a great evil that has taken root in my world. I cannot talk now. Unless you can help me with my taxes. What is growth necklaces? I know you have a lot of things on your mind, but nothing could possibly matter more than this conversation we're having right now

concerning the fate of every single world of our infinite multiverse. Dear Evelyn, I know you. With every passing moment, you fear you might have missed your chance to make something of your life. I'm here to tell you, every rejection, every disappointment has led you here to this moment. Don't have anything distract you from it. It turns out that the supervillain threatening everything is in an alternate universe, Evelyn's teenage daughter, Joy, and Joy's car. concerns are not exactly science fiction.

The relationship between Evelyn and Joy, in its simplest terms, is very fraught. It is a story of a relationship of a daughter who's a lesbian, who is deeply longing for her mother's acceptance. But they keep chasing each other around in the universe and they can just never find one another until, of course, they launch into the multiverse and become nemeses. Actress Stephanie Shue plays both the angst-ridden teenager Joy and the interdimensional supervillain named Jobu. She's a veteran of the stage and TV,

but this is her first lead role in a film. Stephanie Shue spoke last week with Gia Tolentino. Gia writes about culture for the New Yorker, and she's the author of the best-selling essay collection, Trick Mirror. So much about the world seems just extremely overwhelming and bad and broken. And every time you look at your phone, you were reminded by nightmare social media of the nightmare situation in Ukraine and the housing crisis and the unending pandemic and just sort of injustice wherever you look, right? And we all feel this all the time. But one of the things that people have responded to so strongly in everything everywhere is that the movie seems to sketch out some sort of standpoint about how to live in a world that is overwhelming and bad and broken, right?

How to value that world and love that world despite and even because. it's that way. And I wonder, how would you describe the movie's perspective on all of that? Wow. Gia, that was such a beautiful articulation of this moment in time, as well as how it relates to our movie. You know, honestly, in some ways, it's been really surreal because we shot this film before the pandemic, right? We, our last day of filming, was always set to be, it was either March 13th or March 16th, whatever that Friday was that Hollywood shut down,

that was always our intended wrap date. And we could not have possibly known what the last two years, what it was going to be like and how much the world was going to need our little offering. But I have to say, you know, there's my biggest conflict with being an actor or being a part of this industry

is sometimes like, I fear that what we do is not enough or that how is it possible when there's a war, when there's climate disaster, not even crisis, constant climate disaster. Everything feels like it's crumbling. How is art going to help it? And I feel like the release of this film and witnessing how people are responding to it is giving me some sort of full circle healing because I think the movie's stance. is like, yeah, there are a million other universes that we could be in. There are a lot of possibilities

if we went right instead of left that one time. But there's a lot that we don't know. And, you know, in some ways, I think I am someone who's constantly searching for meaning. But when I was working on this project, I would say that nihilism in some ways saved my life. Because if nothing matters, then it's true that we're all just trying to figure it out together. And that's in a way, I mean, that's your character, Joy. That's her journey, right? It's from starting off at a point where it feels like nothing matters, from nothing matters to it all matters.

I think what I love about Joy, this, you know, sort of despondent, queer daughter, and Jobu, a nihilistic, you know, creator of chaos goddess and maniac, is that actually something that was really important for all of us was to make sure that the center of their beings, these two characters, were actually from the same heartbeat. So that spirit of nihilism, you know, can either pull you off the deep end

and make you feel like there's no reason to continue or it can like, you know, slingshot you into the other direction, which is, just create as much chaos as possible because none of this matters. For you playing these two very different characters, was there anything you reached for physically or in terms of your inner process when you were switching back and forth? What did you reach for when you needed to feel that continuity between them? I sort of think of both Joy and Joe Boo as hyper, hyper empaths. I think the most important thing that I felt like I needed to share with the two characters

was this really real feeling from my own life of just overwhelm of I mean it's feeling the world like the absolute weight of not only this universe but all the universes that come before and then imagining what future lies ahead just really tapping into that. And then for joy, you know, obviously she's a much more intimate character and getting to play in that sort of physical manifestation of sadness or like ugliness or just wanting to be small versus Joboo, we did a lot of improvisation. And because she's kind of an omniscient being and not quite human. I was really channeling a lot of amoeba slash noodle energy of like if I were a car, if Jobu was a cartoon, she'd be able to like, and explode into like a particle or then

explode into a basketball player, you know, and trying to embody that availability in her physicality. You know, it's funny. I was going to say, it's like very telling that at first, when Joy comes on screen, I had no idea that she was depressed. I was like, that's on me. I was like, oh, this is just a realistic depiction of what it's like to be a daughter of immigrants. Exactly. Who's living in a different world than her parents? And then, like, however they was like, oh.

Yeah. Oh, she's not well. And it was like, I am not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think I had read other interviews with you when you were saying that knowing that you would get to be, you know, this amoeba bursting with chaos allowed you to just, root into that weight and the and the like the mire that joy is so stuck in. Absolutely. I mean, you know, to this day, it's one of the best scripts that I've ever read.

But it's so rare that you get to see a character that just is asking you to show so much range and not even show range from an egotistical standpoint, but that like one person who is so sad in one world suddenly, you know, is wearing these extraordinary costumes and is so powerful in every other world. And so I really wanted to stretch both realities as far as I could. This movie really felt like a landmark for me because of the exact way that it foregrounded and centered in Asian immigrant story because the movie not just mirrors, but really actively explores the way that the particularities of identity feel to me. And you've, talked in another interview about how you thought the film in a way transcended identity politics.

And I wondered if you had any more thoughts on that subject. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that there's such amazing movement that's happening in terms of visibility. I just watched Turning Red, the new Pixar movie, and just cried like the whole time. I just, if I had seen that when I was a kid, my entire life, my own inner. Red Panda of this thing that I now do with my career, I think I would have unleashed it much sooner. And so I think, you know, but it's also what I love about that movie and our movie

is that it's reaching so many people outside of just the AAPI community. I just think that beyond, it is so crucial to have conversations and specific conversations about how individuals or different cultures grow up or grow in society. And I find that sometimes our conversations that we're having right now are both incredibly helpful and at its worst

are really alienating. Like re-essentializing identity where the whole point is to... Re-essentializing is totally the perfect word for that. And that brings me... That is not the ideal society that I'm looking for, right? Like we need so many conversations

need to be had in order for us to move through into this next version that is more nuanced and complex. So I'm definitely not negating where we are at, but I agree. I think I'm looking forward to continue to like broaden our horizons so much that, you know, five, ten years from now, identity isn't something that we're using as a flex and more of just a part of, of a texture of a story that is crucial and critical, but also not the only fruit that that piece bears. Yeah, I was so, you know, for all of the complexity in the million universes, right, the movie really centers on something very intimate,

which is this intergenerational conveyance or non-conveyance of care and love, and specifically the relationship between a mother and a daughter. And I was so, you know, I was so moved. Michelle Yo is my mom's age. I was so moved by the centering of a suburban Asian mom and her sneakers and her bootcut weekday pants as this, you know, universe saving hero. Like that meant that felt so wonderful to me. That's Gia Tolentino in conversation with Stephanie Shue, who stars in everything everywhere all at once. More in a moment.

I wanted to ask you, could I ask you about your mom's reaction to the movie? Have you watched it with her? Yeah, totally. So my mom, she came to the L.A. premiere. And she definitely wasn't like a huge advocate for me when I was growing up to be an actor. She was very puzzled by that choice or that pursuit. But she saw the movie. And after I asked, she was kind of quiet and I asked her, you know, did you like it?

And she's like, she just nodded behind her mask. She's just like, yes. And then she pointed to the movie screen. And she goes, I cried. That's me. And it's really wild because at the, you know, of course, because I was playing joy and Joe Boo, I, so much of my entry point was from the point of view of a daughter. But, you know, I really, like hearing her say that, not even her saying that's you, but her saying that's me made me feel that the movie. also offered her healing too of not only her relationship with me, but also her relationship with

her parents. Because, yeah, we have gongong in the picture. You know, we have the grandfather in the picture. And it was really special. I still reflect, I'm still chewing over that interaction with her because I've been hearing a lot of people saying that they watch the movie or their parents, they send their parents to watch the movie. And then their parents call them, and apologize. And I just think that is such a, you know, this movie, I'm proud of it for so many reasons, but the biggest gift has been that I very palpably feel that it is offering people healing. And that is all I could ever wish for, for any piece of art that I put out into the world.

And it's helpful to remember that art is capable of doing that, you know, to move. us into action. Okay, just a couple more questions for you. Just to... Wait, I told, I heard that I was allowed to ask you questions. Ask me whatever you want. Well, I want to say that I'm actually, I'm just such a huge fan of yours. Oh my God. And I like, but I had never known that you were Filipina. Oh. And I had never known that you were AAPI until this interview was set up. And I looked up a photo of you. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. It's that colonizer last name I've got.

It's the Tolentino. It's the Tolentino. She's an Italian mobster riding for the New Yorker. But I was curious, you know, in all our conversations around race and how it's presented in popular culture. And I'm curious as to how your experience of it as a journalist is and how how how. how that plays into the stories you tell or the walls that you feel like you have to push through or walk past. That is, I wasn't expecting to answer a question, but, you know, it's, I feel, I feel, you know, I was thinking about this when you, when we were talking about the, wanting to avoid the trap of re-essentializing identity. Because I feel like the whole point of valuing the particularities of anyone's identity is to, not to enshrine them in stone, but to move towards a world where everyone's identity is crucially important, but also, like, you understand identity is fundamentally fluid and fundamentally kind of incidental.

And I think about when I was writing my book, I think one of the things I thought about was, was, the thing I thought about was, the way that, let's say, like, white male culture writers had always written criticism or whatever and assumed their perspective to be the universal default, I was like, I want to do that too. I want to write a kind of mainstream book about culture from the implicit point of view of me as a Filipino woman that grew up in Texas, and have that be kind of as naturally a default perspective for cultural criticism, the way that we've been presented with the white perspective as the natural default for any perspective and anything else, right? But I think I feel, I just feel really conscious of the moment that we're in,

we have just more freedom than anyone ever did, you know, anyone in our identity position ever has had maybe historically, right? And it feels, and it feels like a complicated thrill to be able to see how we're all going to use it, you know, and see how we're all going to be able to work, work to whatever vision of freedom that we're looking for, right? Totally. I love that. And I think part of what made me so excited to know that I had loved your work before I

even knew what you looked like, was that it was your voice, your writing, your implicit, like the implicit normalcy and expansiveness of your thoughts articulated and not the color of your skin that made me drawn to you. And so I think what you were saying earlier about I feel like I'm in this moment where I'm able to be here. because of so much of the space that other people have made for me. And simultaneously, I'm also co-creating for those who come after me. I really feel like straddling that line because when I first started, there was no crazy rich agents.

There was no parasite. There was no turning red or everything everywhere, right? And I think that this movie and how it's been received is giving me permission, like really deep permission for the first time of my life to really love this thing that I do because I don't, I'm not a doctor, I don't have the skill sets or the gifts that I've been given are in this little corner of the world.

And it is not, it is immense, actually. There's great responsibility in being a person who shifts culture. And so if that is, the toolbox I've been given, then I better use it wisely and hold it with grace and enjoy it and celebrate it. Stephanie Shue is one of the stars of everything, everywhere, all at once, and it's in theaters now. You can read Gia Tolentino at new yorker.com. More to come. So please, stick around. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Yards,

with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Ave Carrillo, Brita Green, Callalia, David Krasnow, Gauphin and Putuguello, Louis Mitchell, with help from Alison McAdam, Harrison Keithline, and Monfei Chen, and guidance from Emily Boutin. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part

by the Cherina Endowment Fund.