The New Yorker Radio Hour - The Breeders on Sexism, Drugs, and Rock and Roll

Episode Date: May 22, 2018

This year, the original members of the Breeders—indie-rock royalty—are back together, twenty-five years after “Last Splash,” an album that fans regard as a classic. Kim Deal, Kelly Deal, Josephine Wiggs, and Jim MacPherson joined David Remnick in the studio to play songs off their new record, “All Nerve.” They also talk about the toll of drugs and alcohol, about playing together after decades, and about the persistence of sexism in rock. Kim Deal once said that “misogyny is the backbone of the music industry,” and she remains bitter about how badly female musicians are treated—even by their friends. She recalls a remark that Charles Thompson, who led the Pixies under the name Black Francis, once made about her.  “I’m paraphrasing … he said, ‘Kim, all she would have to do was smile and the crowd would erupt in cheers.’ Of course that’s going to bother me.” For Deal, this comment minimized her work as a musician: “I’m sweating, I’m almost going to pass out with the heat, I just threw up a little bit in my mouth, the misogynist tour driver did not get sanitary napkins so I’m probably bleeding a little down my leg right then. I’m doing downstrokes, really fast, exhausting music … at the same time I have to find the pitch of the song because I’m singing a melodic harmony on top of everything … All that is happening, [but] all I did was just sit there and smile, and the crowd was clapping because I smiled?” The Breeders performed “Off You” live at WNYC Studios.   New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is a road trade to the ballot. They're straight of the block for West Boulevard and make that right. They didn't break that, but they have pretty good access to those people. They're going to subconsciously mocked that lineage. So that's happening. It seems like an incredible story here on many fronts. From One World Trade Center in Manhattan, this is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker.

Hi, I'm good. Hi, David. Thanks. Thank you. It's nice to meet you. Thanks for having us. Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Wrenwick.

I've never made it much of a secret that if I had my druthers, like a lot of other people, I'd be pretty happy playing guitar for a living, but it ain't going to happen. Nevertheless, it's a huge thrill for me to have one of the most exciting bands of recent decades come on the show. The Breeders. The Breeders helped define. the sound of rock and roll in the 90s. Kim Deal had played bass in the Pixies, and to form a new band, she recruited her sister, a drummer she knew from Ohio, and an English woman she'd met on tour. And 25 years ago, they put out Last Splash, an album of insistent yet melodic punk. They toured

with Nirvana, who were their fans, but there were miserable tours, too, battles with drugs, fights, defections, and side projects. Although the songs lived on in the kids, canon of indie rock, it seemed like the Breeders' Moment had come and gone. This year, though, the original members are back together, and they've released a new album called All Nerve. Kim Deal, her twin sister Kelly Deal, bassist Josephine Wiggs, and drummer Jim McPherson join me in the studio to play some songs off the new record. I've got to ask you, as somebody whose singular dream growing up was not to have anything to do with a magazine, but to be in a rock and roll band. What's it like to not be

23 and in a band and together again and touring after the long history you've had? It must be what? There's a couple of questions in there. What's it like not to be 23? That's a question. I already know the answer to. What's it like to still be in a band with these particular people and how do I feel about the stretch of time? I have a great answer to this. No, I've got a great answer. You go ahead. Okay, this is Kelly. My first answer is when I was 23, I was working for a defense contractor. So that question, parts of it just kind of slide right by me. Go ahead, Joe. Well, my answer might be a little dark. Oh, good. What a surprise. Do you know, do you remember that film documentary about the couple, I think they lived in Queens where I think she was a model and

her boyfriend became extremely jealous of her and threw acid in her face. She remember that and she was blinded. This is not going to end well, isn't it? No, well, it depends how you look at it. And then later in life, like 30 years later or something, they met again and they were married. And the thing about it is that

the thing about it is that for her, because she's blind, They're the same as they were 30 years ago. Kim, you're laughing because you understand or you don't understand that you agree or disagree. It makes complete sense to me, yes, yes, that she would just miss over the part of, so we were the people who threw, are the acid in your face? So it was just like the passion that they had then was still there and so no time had passed or something? No, it's the passion.

For her, she's not old. So you're disillusioned. You're delusional enough to think. It's like a chance to go backwards. You know what I mean? Well, not backwards. It's a chance to relive things. But it's not a nostalgia trip because you have a new album.

It's a terrific new album. And it feels consistent with what you were but something new. That's really rare. How did you come to get back together? In fact, if you look at old interviews of the Beatles, for example, at any given moment after they broke up, one would be in favor of it, but two were against it. And then three would be in favor it, and one's against it. So it never quite happened, and then tragedy occurred, life occurred.

How did it happen that you all agreed all at once? This is Kelly again. Kim was visiting me over at my house on the couch. And my house is not on a couch, by the way. We happen to be on the couch. You're a stickler for grammar. And your house is where? In Dayton, Ohio.

Yeah, and she came over to visit. And I was sitting there, and it was 2012. And I was like, you know, next year, 2013 is going to be the 20th anniversary of Last Splash. And you know how bands are kind of celebrating. I thought, wouldn't it be fun if we just called Jim and Joe and just did a couple like shows where we did the album from, you know, track one to the very last track and just did the whole album. And I said, yeah, you get a hold of Jim. I'll get a hold of Joe because me and Jim were mad at each other. Why were you mad at each other? Well, we, after the Breeders' Last Splash, me and Jim carried on and we started a band together called The Amps. And there was, it devolved a bit. You're making a drinking motion with your hand. Truth in advertising.

And honestly, when we got back from that tour, Jim in like 96, I went downstairs to my basement. and all his drums were out of the basement and I thought, oh my God, what did I say to Jim? And we hadn't talked from 2006, Jim, or seven? Jim, you want to kick in here? What did she say to really piss you off? It was a big black blur. I see.

So the drinking was a serious thing. Well, at the time, not just that time, right then, that tour was something else. So anyway, I forgot what we were talking about. Getting back together. Getting back together. And you guys didn't chat for a while. And you asked Jim and he said he'd love to do it. And I asked Joe and she said she'd love to do it.

I was doing music for film. I did music for a couple of feature films and doing more kind of ambient music and stuff like that. And doing a lot of recording on my own. But it's really different. Being in a band, doing music with a band and playing in a rock band is really different. And as soon as we got back together again, I was like, oh, I actually really miss this. I really miss being on stage and making a really loud noise and playing with loud drums and playing a rock show. The new album is called All Nerve. So let's listen to the title track.

What does the title phrase mean, All Nerve? I mean, I think, of course, it can mean many things, but what I embrace about it is the idea that just hopelessly delusional, just absolutely a break, a psychotic break from reality. I mean, it's so sad when somebody believe something so much and it's not true. And I feel like I've had like that before. I want to know because I've never experienced it and it just seems like possibly the best thing you can do. Playing in front of a big crowd,

playing the music that you love, and having that all come together in this way that nights like that can be. What is that? like? I don't know. I think the idea, it's funny that you're, you can tell you have a rock and roll fantasy going, don't you? I do. I love it. It is, it is adorbs. Who doesn't? Who doesn't? Who doesn't? We don't. That's because you do it. It's your job. I just heard of that is because... But there's a really big difference between the rock and roll fantasy and the reality of rock and roll. That's not actually

what being in a band is about. No, it's really not. It's not, yeah. That is so not what being in band is about. It's about everything but that. Everything but the performance? The performance. I mean, that is, I mean, what, it doesn't matter if it's 30 people or 300 or 30,000 or big, huge festivals. It's that moment that it's all that, the indefinable stuff, the, the, you know, what is the space stuff? The space gunk. All the dark matter that happens on the stage, you know?

Are you saying that it's just two four and the crowd doesn't matter so much? Well, you do get energy from that. Sometimes my favorite moments are in the basement when the arc of a song, we've worked on this part and it hasn't been sounding good. And then somebody comes up with an idea where it's like, we do it and then like, oh, yeah, that sounded good. That to me is really the place that I like to be. Yeah. There are so many. And also to go back to your point about your fantasy, David, about playing in front of 30,000 people.

often we'll be on the way somewhere and we'll be like, oh gosh, you know, it's like a really small venue and they've only sold half the tickets. It doesn't happen very often, though, by the way. It's very rare. And we could get bummed out about that, but in actual fact, sometimes those are the best shows. Now, you've made no secret, you guys especially, that your acquaintance with drugs and alcohol was pretty intense.

And do you feel like... That's correct. Yeah. Do you feel like you survive something? I do, yeah, definitely. Like you dodged a bullet? Yeah, and especially now, people are just dropping like flies. It's crazy, yeah.

Where you live and everywhere? Just in general, yeah. And do you find friends dying and people you know from the old neighborhood? I don't, not really, because the friends that I have now, I don't really hang out with people who are using, you know. It's too big a risk. Well, risk. You know, heroin addicts are really boring people.

I can second that. They are super boring. Their world is a very, very tiny, and they have a full-time job that takes every second of their life up. Getting drugs. Yeah. And so having a chat or sitting or having a coffee, no. What do you do to music? When you were using, what did drugs do for the music?

or take away from the music. You've been pretty honest that it gave something to the music at times. You know, when the Pixies first started playing, there was no smoking pot and drinking, you know. I remember us, Jolt Cola just came out, and I remember us taking the weekend in a studio, and he had to really buckle down and finish all the tracks in one weekend, and we drank Jolt Cola.

Yeah, I'm not talking about Joke Lola, though. It's so adorable. I think it's like the rock and roll fantasy where there's an idea that it's been it's been every moment and it's not it's like It's basically a black out of party

Yeah yeah no But it's progressive you know the disease is progressive Yeah and I think Like there was a time eventually Where you know You're just getting super baked And

On pot you know. It's actually really destructive. I have to tell you, this is why I stopped playing with them because I couldn't stand the hit. Because what was happening? It's just not fun. It's not fun to be around people who are so absent. Like, you know, like Kelly was saying a minute ago. So what attempted you make to, whether, whether or not we're even like, we're having, you know, blackouts or destroying. And I wasn't doing, I mean, that's a little, it's a little, it's a little misleading, I think, when you say that, because you act like I was, like, crazed or something. No, no, I just mean...

That's what you're saying. No, no. I'm saying that we weren't home. Yeah. Present. Present. Yeah. In the way that you are now.

It's not like, you know, we're destroying dressing rooms or anything. It's not like that. No. You're not there. You're not there. I actually did do that with Chris Novicellick. You did not. We did.

It was so much fun. And he was adorable. And we went up to the hotel. You're on a high floor and you did the TV into the swimming pool thing? You have to listen how we did it. I'm all yours. So he goes, okay, I've never done this. Do you want to do it?

So he called down to the front desk and he said, I want to throw a TV out. Oh, my God. I'll pay for the TV and I just want to make sure everybody's safe. So can you? And so we did this thing and we organized it. It was the most adorable, sweet rock and roll fantasy. I wish you were there. I haven't been.

I would have loved it. And it was done with such heart and joy and fun. Will you call me the next time you do this? Sure. Sure, definitely. I really need this in my life. And so we carried it over and we had to make sure. I was like, you know, and then threw it out.

It was super fun. It's not going to be the same now, though, is it? No, it's going to be throwing a little thin. It's a, yeah. It's like a, more like a frisbee with a flat screen TV. So Joe, all kidding aside, you got fed up. I couldn't connect. I think it was largely Lollapalooza.

It wasn't only, it was Lollapalooza, I found very alienating tour. One. Just because it went on for three months, and we were often in the middle of, we would arrive in the middle of a field somewhere. It's a blast. Band camp. I loved it. It was so much fun.

That's because they were part. She was partying the whole time. Whereas if you're, I'm not a party. And you were in your room reading Dickens or Jane Auster. We didn't have rooms. We were on the bus. And in fact, there was a little glimpse. So there's no escape.

Yeah, the music would start at 11 in the morning. Josephine is like a cat. Pounding, pounding. A vegan cat. Music all day, every day. So you could never slip away and read a book. You know what I mean? It was kind of grueling, I found.

And why, why, and this always occurred to me looking at bands as a kid and as I got older, I'm looking at bands one after the other, after the other, it's all four guys, five guys, five guys and a woman singing. Very, very rarely did it break out at that mold, and when it did it was a kind of a thing. There are bands that you could obviously name. Are you talking back in the day or now? Still. Oh, no, there's a ton of, you're just seeing the wrong bands on. It's not by any stretch 50-50.

Which genre are you talking about? In almost any genre. Yeah, but what is 50-50? Nothing is 50-50, is it? Kim, at one point you said that misogyny was the backbone of the music business. Yes. Yes. Still.

Well, it's interesting that you're talking about this because I've been going back and forth about the ideal of, I used to get it every six months. I would get an interview lined up. And the paper would say, we're running something on women in rock, the resurgence of women in rock. About the third year of me getting the fourth resurgence of women in rock, I begin to see, oh, there's not really a resurgence of women in rock. It's just a theme. It's a story. It's an angle for the newspaper to actually come up like, you know, salsa players, you know, or something like that.

It's an idea. So that's another thing is like, is there a resurgence of women in rock? Has there been a less? Here's what I've decided. Women don't get covered. So there's an appearance that women aren't in music, just like that gentleman from the Grammys, Neil Portnoy or whatever his name is, who said that women really need to step up if they want to be represented in the Grammys, not really understanding that he's not representing women in the Grammys, period.

That was the problem. Not that we need to step up to be represented, but we just, weren't being represented. So it's a little odd. So it's the institutions that put these bands and performers and artists forward, whether it's the award show or the press or promoters or what have you. For some reason, it's just this recurring thing, just like festivals. Now, supposedly festivals are getting a little bit better. This much pitchfork just did an article. 2018 is this much better. They have a little bar graph and stuff like that. You're holding your fingers about a quarter of an inch apart. Yes, yes.

of the women performers compared with the male performances in the year of 2018 and 2017. So anyway, probably these festivals are saying, yeah, but these women don't get, we need media artists, artists who are covered by the media to be on our festivals. So our festivals will get media and we'll get coverage. Of course, if you don't put them on the, it's just a loop that it just, I mean, do I have to explain it? somebody else could probably explain it. It's a catch 22 is what she's saying. It's even more than that. You're saying something worse than a catch 22, that it's systemic and it extends from music everywhere else. It is systemic, and it's a continuing thing. It doesn't seem like it's ever, it's just it's eating itself. And it that's, which is quite different than the backbone of the industry being misogynistic, which it is, by the way.

But go ahead. I want to ask you about your presence on stage specifically, you Amanda Petrusa, who writes for us, recently wrote this. Kim Deal hasn't done any of the things that we expect girls to do on stage. She never preened, confessed, flirted, demurred, or compromised. Was that a conscious thing on your part how you come off and appear on stage the way you are in front of an audience? Well, I think it's because I think if I, you know, were, if I did those things, I would feel ridiculous. So I feel like I can't, those aren't available for me to do. So there's another thing, though, that I just saw that somebody brought up again, I think in the Lizzie Goodman just happened to bring this up in an article she just wrote.

It's just something that Charles had been reported as saying that it was something I'm paraphrasing about, you know, somebody asking him whether, you know, if there was problems with me or not and stuff like that. And he said, Kim, all she would have to do is smile and the crowd would erupt in cheers. And he was saying so that, you know, like you, me too, like you probably. Of course, that's going to kind of bother me. You're talking there about Charles Thompson, who was Black Francis of the Pixies. What was he getting at? All I had to do was smile and the crowd was behind me.

And I just think how incredibly second. is to think, you know, I'm sweating, I'm going to almost pass out with the heat. I just threw up a little bit in my mouth. The misogynistic tour driver did not go and, you know, get sanitary napkins. So I'm probably bleeding a little down my leg right then. Well, I'm absolutely, you know, I'm in this band who's like playing, like I'm doing downstrokes, you know, really fast music, exhausting, like a bass player, you know, so it's a big instrument with a big amp and big noise. And at the same time, I have to find that, the pitch of the song because I'm singing a melodic harmony on top of everything. So not only do I'm listening to the drummer with the rhythm,

but also, but just because I make it look easy, I know, I make it look easy. But the thing is, I can't believe that somebody, like all of that is happening. It sounded like a cinch. And all I did was sit there and smile and the crowd was clapping because I smiled. It's just like, wow, really? That's all I was there. I just smiled. I wasn't doing any of the anything else. It just, does anybody think that's weird? No, no, no. I totally understand how that would be like, no, you're just counting my years of work toil and everything that got not only the experience playing, playing well, the years that you spent playing guitar, playing bass, writing songs, recording yourself, going to Radio Shack, buying the right cable, getting a soldering gun so you could

fixed his case. Like, we were in the middle of a show. I'm sweating my, I just like, and all I did was smile. It's just like, and they've clapped, who knew, who knows why? You're really, really stirring up a lot of stuff right now. I'm really angry. You're pissed. You're angry. I'm just a little mad. Sorry. I can see that. Laughing, thank God. You're on stage in front of a crowd. You make, you make these terrific records, and then you go home and you face really, really, ordinary tragedies that we all face. We all have something. Everybody's got something. And you two, your mother is quite sick at this point. She has Alzheimer's. Who's caring for her? How do you carry that on the road with you? How do you live these kind of simultaneous lives? It must be extraordinarily

difficult. We have a great system. We have great caregivers. We have found a great place. They come in a few times a day and they make sure that she is not getting bed sores or... What stage is she in? Late. Yeah. Late. Non-vocal. And very passive.

Yeah. How does this all figure into your work, into the record, into your songs, if at all? You have a beautiful song on your solo series that kind of touches on that. It's online. It's beautiful. There's a beautiful video that goes along with it. What's the song? It's called Are You Mine?

You know what it got me thinking was like when I'm getting old and stuff, I think, oh, well, I used to have my memories. And then seeing her lose them all, I think, wow, that's not even going to happen. I'm not going to sit there and just imagine my, you know, just, you know, oh, that was so great. Think of that. Think of that. I'm doing things to cultivate this time where I'm going to just think about, back about my life and knowing that's all far. What memories would you want to be there to sustain you at the end?

I'd like to say the smile of my child and my husband's firm hands. Should I point out the obvious here? I'm not married and I don't have any children. I don't know. I had a cat I liked. He died a couple years ago. Oh, my God. Have a beer.

No, I'm here. Now, you guys have integrity. the ears, do you ever wish you'd cashed in just a little bit more, sold out a little bit more? I'm open to cashing it. I just don't know. I can't find the road. What would cashing it a bit look like? I don't really know. Retirement plan? Ah. What does cashing in look like? I don't know. I think, you know, I used to go back. What? I can't wait to hear this. She's covering your face. It's just, again, it's a pixie sing. It was Dave Lovering's

mother. And she used to come backstage and she was from Massachusetts, you know, Boston. And she would say, what you need. She would see me and I would just be sweating mess, right? Whatever. And she would say, you need a jewel-encrusted boostier and some big chunky silver earrings and some makeup. That's a great idea. The jewel-encrusted boostier is, I guess, cashing in. Madonna was popular at the time. She was very popular. She must have had a jewel-encrusted boostier. Now, I'm going to ask you to play for us. This has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having us. We've enjoyed it other than I'm slightly mad. You don't seem slightly mad. I can tell you're flexing your muscle. You're a good talker. I think it's a good thing that you're doing this for a living. You would be a drunken, strung-out bum if you had the rock-and-roll lifestyle. I could see it not playing well with you.

Give me a chance. And you would be an egomaniac walking along around. Yes, that sounds fabulous. Oh, my God. It sounds so good. A thousand times chills and shell, because I'm not that. The breeders are Kim Deal, Kelly Deal, Josephine Wiggs, and Jim McPherson. They played Off You live at WNYC.

Their new album's called AllNerve. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and the NIEC. New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Yards, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Churina Endowment Fund.