The New Yorker Radio Hour - The Last Abortion Clinic in Mississippi; and a Look at White Empathy

Episode Date: May 6, 2022

Last week, a draft opinion was leaked which suggests that a majority of Supreme Court Justices are ready to overturn the precedents of Roe v. Wade and Planned Parenthood v. Casey—the decisions that have guaranteed a right to abortion at the federal level.  The case in question is Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, in which Mississippi officials seek to close the state’s last remaining abortion clinic under a law that bans performing an abortion after the fifteenth week of pregnancy—a point well before the time of fetal viability.  In November, Rachel Monroe visited the Jackson abortion clinic, speaking to its director, Shannon Brewer; a physician who asked to remain anonymous, describing the risks to abortion providers; and a patient, who had driven all night from Texas, where she was not able to obtain an abortion. “Somebody else is telling me what I should do with my body, and it’s not right,” she said. “It’s my body. It’s my decision. It’s my choice. It’s my life. It’s my soul, if it’s going to Hell.” Produced with assistance from Ezekiel Bandy and Kim Green. This segment originally aired November 19, 2021.   Plus, the staff writer Alexis Okeowo talks with the producer Ngofeen Mputubwele about why the Ukrainian refugee crisis seems both familiar and startlingly different from conflicts in other parts of the world. New Yorker Radio Hour listeners, we want to hear from you.  We have a few questions about the show and how you listen to it. The survey takes about twenty minutes, and your feedback will help us make our podcast better.  Take the survey here.

This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Not so long ago, we produced an episode called If Roe v. Wade goes, what next? And now, according to the draft Supreme Court opinion that was leaked last week, a majority of the justices want to end federally protected abortion rights altogether. The specific case being argued is known as Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, and it will decide whether Mississippi officials can shut down the state's only remaining abortion provider.

We are standing here on a beautiful Friday outside the Jackson Women's Health Organization. It's funny to think that that all is going to center on this one building, which is like a pretty unremarkable building, except for the fact that it is quite pink. It is like a beautiful. pale pink, I believe they call it the Pink House, and yeah, let's go in. As the case came before the Supreme Court last fall, our reporter Rachel Monroe visited Jackson Women's Health, and she met the director, Shannon Brewer. I love you in your office. You're okay, you're okay.

Shannon Brewer, she's the clinic director. So we've been seeing a lot of patients this week, the Louisiana. The Indiana clinics are full or, and then of course with Texas, you got the SB 8 going on. So literally the same week it came into effect. The very first day, our phones rang from 8 o'clock until we left that day. And it was like Texas people, and they were like on panic mode. They were crying. They were upset.

They were going through so much. Normally we see patients three days a week. We're now seeing patients five and some weeks, six days. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, some weeks. Yeah. I have been here should be 21 years.

And I started out part-time as a sterilization technician. It was like, you know, it's just another job. You know, I'm like, good. I got me a job. I'm happy, you know. And once I started learning

the political aspects of it, it changed to, you know, I'm a part of something that's a little bit deeper than just clocking in every day. So women, a lot of women really don't know what's going on out here. They don't know about the fight. They don't know that we're dealing with these new laws that they are trying to put in place.

And we're fighting all of these laws. They're amazed by it. Can you talk a little bit about, like, who are the patients who come here? We serve all types of women. There is no one type of women. Because, of course, because we're here in Jackson and we're the only facility in Mississippi, you know we do serve predominantly a lot of African-American women here a lot of women who you know are already struggling you know as far as health care and stuff like that they're already having

issues with that we serve a lot of those women actually we really do quick question Rachel is so the New Yorker and they wanted to know if you wanted to talk to them yeah I would prefer to remain anonymous yeah most of our doctors do Yeah. That's totally fine. Yeah, I've been coming here to Jackson Women's Health Organization for almost three years. Can you, I guess, maybe talk about some of the, like, security stuff that you have to do, even just that you were, like, trying to figure out today? Yeah, so for safety purposes, we always use a rental car so that our personal car isn't able to be tracked or located. Just with the history of violence against abortion providers in this country, we try to take every precaution to be as safe as possible. So actually back in March of this year, my identity was somehow made known to the protesters.

And then they ended up harassing the clinic where I work. And so that made me stop coming here for a little while. And then I ultimately found a new job. So I'll be leaving Mississippi. Oh, gosh. But continuing to come here. Yeah. Okay.

And what are you thinking about and watching with the Supreme Court case that centers on this clinic? A 15-week ban? Like, what is that, I guess, as a medical professional, like, is there any sort of scientific basis to that as a... Absolutely not. Yeah. It's basically just drawing a line in a sand. In general, first trimester abortions are a little bit safer

than second trimester abortions, but all abortions are much safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. So pretending like this is in a woman's best interest is just a farce. Ma'am, they just want to kill your baby. You've got a little woman or a little man that deserves to live. There's the first patients of the day are starting to leave the clinic. Sort of a hectic vibe here at the Pink House. For these innocent little children who are having to die

at the murderous knife of this abortionist doctor and all of these evil wicked... supporters, Father. Lord Jesus, I pray that you would just open the floodgates of terror in such a way that it would help them see that they are going to die and go to hell if they do not trust you as their Lord and Savior. Lord, that there would be a... It's like I'm wondering if I could see the literature that you're handing out to folks. Sure. Yeah.

I was just telling John about this campaign that Life Action League, what is what is two, three, What is 2363? It's the average number of babies that are aborted in America every day. Our thing is, scientifically, I mean, DNA says it's a human being from the very beginning of conception. Now, it might not look like you and me, but it is a human being. I mean, at what point is it okay to abort that? You know, 20 weeks where they've got some hair and eyelashes and they're totally, everything's working. Everything's present.

present every so it's just a matter of do you believe that it's a human being from the beginning or not i think and we do we do and how long have you been coming out here how long have you been up to this i think about 12 years oh gosh wow yeah and are you paying attention to the mississippi law that's now being heard by the supreme court case is that oh you're smiling at that well can i say i don't have time to really i mean my heart My heart is here. My heart is trying to help women here. Okay. I do pray that Roe versus Wake is overturned.

I would love to see it go back to each individual state. And I think that's where it belongs. And so what, if this clinic does get shut down because whatever happens in the courts, do you all get to retire or you move on to what happens next? There's still going to be women to help, right? And babies to help. And I would love to see us have, like, maternity scenes. centers bring up where we could minister to these women, mind, body, and soul.

I know everybody's outside picketing and wanting me to love your child. I do love the child that I have, but I just don't feel like that I can go on with a pregnancy. What brought me here are the severe laws in Texas. I had to drive here to be able to make my own decision as a woman. This clinic is a lifesaver. I am extremely sick. I am not able to function. I'm not able to drink any water.

I'm not able to hold any food down. I'm not able to care for my other child. It's just not ideal for me to have another kid. So did you come here from Texas? I did. I'm from here. I'm from Mississippi. I just lived there, better opportunities,

living a better life with my kid. But yeah, I'm so glad to be able to come home and do this. That's it and I'm married. It's not like I'm having a kid and my husband doesn't know. It's by somebody I'm just randomly having sex with. No, we're both business owners. We're married and we know the type of life we want to live. We don't want a bunch of kids.

I can't handle it. My body can't handle it. And it's a decision we made. And what impact did the Texas law have on your life? I couldn't make my own decision. I feel like that's taken away from me. I feel like somebody else is telling me. me what I should do with my body.

And it's not right. It's my body. It's my decision. It's my choice. It's my life. It's my soul. If it's going to hell. I just feel like they don't have the right to do that. Like, especially a man. Like, you all have to do nothing. We have to do everything. And you have a decision on what I'm going to do. I think not. So I drove all night. I left at 2.30 in the morning with my. six and three quarter year old. We drove all night, dropped him off with grandma, and I'm here,

and I don't feel bad one bit about it. Thank you so much for sharing that. No problem. Have a good day, everybody. Appreciate you. Letting me, like, come in and bother you. Do you think there's a chance that you all will have to close?

I don't see us closing, but, you know, we don't know. Like I said, this is probably the first time when people ask me about it that I don't have a definite answer because of the fact that it's the Supreme Court and they took it because I still can't believe it. I usually like, no, we're going to fight this today

and we're going to do this, we're going to do this, but this time it's really, you really don't know what's going to happen. Are you going to go for the arguments? Are you going to go up there? Yes, yes, we're going. And that must be like if it goes not in your favor, then it's like the case has the name of this clinic.

Does that bother you at all, or is that like... No, that doesn't bother me. The fact that it has the name of the clinic. Because whichever direction it goes in, every pro-choice person in America, they'll know that, you know, we were here and we fought all the way to the end. They will know that we were here for them at all times.

So I don't have a problem with that at all. If they rule in a way that's not in your favor, then what happens next? The next day is we figure out how to help women in whatever way we can. The next step is not to just, you know, we lost. The next step is always how do we make this work? That's what women do. We figure out how to make something work. That's Shannon Brewer at the Jackson Women's Health Organization, speaking last November.

Last week, after the draft opinion from the Supreme Court was made public, Brewer said that the clinic might relocate to New Mexico if abortion in Mississippi is criminalized. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. More to come. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has brought about devastating violence and destruction. It's displaced an estimated 10 million civilians, Ukrainian citizens, immigrants, and visitors to the country.

Staff writer Alexis O'Kewo has covered conflict and human rights issues around the world. To someone familiar with the plight of refugees, what's happening now around Ukraine seems both familiar and startlingly different. Alexis O'Koh spoke with one of our producers, Gophane and Putubuele. Here's Gophane. So we're going to start back in 2017. Two men detonated two truck bombs in the capital of Somalia, Mogadishu. Around 2,000 pounds of explosives went off. At the time, Alexis O'Kheul was living in the States,

but they were doing a lot of reporting related to the continent. It was interesting. I was on social media, and it felt like I was in two parallel realities. And one, you know, a lot of my American friends, colleagues, etc., were talking about other news. And then in the other one, my Somali friends and colleagues, East African friends and colleagues, were all talking about the recent attack. And, you know, I had that thought, why doesn't anyone seem to care about this? and I mean anyone, I mean anyone specifically in the United States where I live and work.

The explosives went off on a Saturday afternoon in a busy intersection, blowing out at least 512 lives. The most lethal terrorist attack that Somalia has ever experienced. And yet, over here in the States, the news didn't mean. make much of a splash, barely even a ripple. Here's what Alexis wrote at the time. What is often missing in the days following attacks in Somalia are the intimate stories about the victims. The sense that real breathing people were affected and that these catastrophes are neither

normal nor expected. With a place like Somalia, defined by stereotypes beyond its borders, it has become acceptable to think of the country as holding only war in extremism and to forget that the lives there are multi-layered, possessing similar and universal concerns, interests, and desires. I think that in that piece I was trying to think about, you know, what does it mean when a place is written about and covered in a certain way for years, for decades? And so things like that, insanely begin to be seen as routine there, even though for the people who live there who

experience it, it's nothing like routine. It's devastating. And then how do you as a journalist try to convey that to people who live very far away and who, again, hold these stereotypes of this place in their head? All of this came to mind for me when Russia invaded Ukraine in February. It was as if a trigger went off. Like someone flipped an empathy switch for us as a society to pour out support for Ukraine. Within 24 to 48 hours, just watching the news, I absorbed hundreds of years of Eastern European history. I knew the colors of the Ukrainian flag almost immediately, and images of grieving victims saturated news coverage. And for context here, I'm the child of a country, the Democratic Republic of Congo, that's been at

war for at least 20 years, bleeding refugees, child soldiers. In graduate school and then in law school, that's what I focused on, how conflict displaces people and how conflict intersects with international criminal law. But as someone whose job it is now to craft stories as a journalist, since the war started, I can't pull my eyes away from the stories we tell about Ukraine and how we formulate them, the characters we select, the verbs we use, and how that varies from other parts of the world I know. Frankly, where I would live, if it hadn't been for me, by the luck of the draw, being born while my parents were here and not there. So I called Alexis. We started by talking about a piece Alexis published right after Russia's invasion, about how Ukrainian refugees were being

received. I remember I was on a plane to Europe and I just felt the impulse to write this so keenly because I was on my way to start reporting a piece about migration but about very different kind of migrants. I was reporting about refugees from Africa and the Middle East who were being ignored and facing a lot of difficulties because they were encountering a lot of hostility and rejection from many places in Europe that they were trying to flee to. And then to look at the news and see how Ukrainian refugees were being received so warmly, it was just, it was mind-boggling to me. It was this strange feeling. And then not only reading that, but then to see that black people brown people who are also trying to flee Ukraine were also facing the same kind of discrimination

I was seeing that refugees from black and brown countries were. You know, it was just, it was, I felt very upset about it and I felt like, you know, it's something we needed to point out. When you say they were being received warmly, like the Ukrainian refugees, what does that look like? And how does that compare to how you've seen other refugees treated? When Ukrainian refugees first started leaving their country, and up until now, neighboring countries, other nations in Europe, immediately expressed the sentiment that they wanted to take them in, they wanted to help, they wanted to assist them. Germany and Austria began offering free train rights to Ukrainian refugees who wanted to come in.

the European Union enacted a temporary protection directive, which gave citizens and permanent residents of Ukraine residency for at least one year, which allow them more time to go through the asylum process and to have a place to live and access social services. But on the other hand, Italy and other countries in Europe have been prosecuting people who they've accused of helping migrants from other countries. The prime minister of Hungary has said that he wants to, well, he has. He's built a border fence to keep out what he calls Muslim invaders. You know, last year, refugees were trying to cross Poland's border with Belarus, and they were pushed back by security forces with tear gas and water cannons in the freezing cold.

And so I think the question then becomes why. You know, there are reasons that seem pretty obvious, racism, Islamophobia. But then that can't explain it all, right? I mean, I think as you said to me, you don't doubt that people want to help. It's just, you know, a matter of why certain people are being seen as worthy of help. others aren't. Right, right, right. I've felt a sort of conflict where I'm like, both, yes, this is something that we should care about, but also at the same time, why am I being steered to care about this, if that makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. And what are your theories as to why?

My theories? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's like, I have, I think I have the same, the same, inclination where I'm like, well, racism seems like a thing. But I think the other thing that's jumped out to me is a sort of, it's not that we say that like a war in Congo where my family is from doesn't matter. But more, we have this idea that a war in some of these other countries is normal. You look at black and brown people and you kind of say, well, these people are used to this. We're like, this is what it's like where they're from. The sad reality is just like, you know, some parts of the world, like we just can't fix it. Right. But it's almost like the racism comes out in a sort of, it shouldn't be this way in Ukraine. The people in the hard way, the hard

working people in Ukraine don't deserve this. It's like a full humanity given to them versus a sort of partial humanity, if that, to non-white folks. Well, I think what you just described is the definition of racism. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's who is given humanity. And going back to media coverage, and I think the role of any journalist, especially journalists who are reporting on places or communities that aren't their own, is to try to portray your subjects with as much humanity as you can. But because that hasn't always been the case, especially with the places we're talking about,

who are supplying most of the world's refugees right now, I think that's part of the cause of the problem we're in right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it seems, to me, it feels like we have a really sort of anemic politics of care. And I'm kind of of two minds about this because I do think it's true that people can only handle so much conflict before they shut down. I think that that's true as a general statement. I know that it is true in my own life when it comes to things in Congo.

in particular, I only have a certain threshold before I have to be like, I can't, I just have to like put this, jettison this. Otherwise, I will not function. So I think that's real. But I also wonder if there are ways that we can make our ideas of who we care about more robust. I think a thing that I struggled with at some point in the Ukraine coverage was I almost felt like people were like, oh, yeah, the coverage is racist. Oh, how, how. We're racist. We're racist again. And I'm like, yeah, we are.

But like, can we do something? Like, is there, is there a way to reframe, like, our behavior or our discussion so that, like, that reality changes and not just sort of a mea culpa, like, oh, look, America's racist again. Like, be better. You know? Is there, like, something you can see in your head? like if we got to that next step, what would it look like? One of the ways that I feel like our storytelling in journalism are like communication of stories about places like Africa or Latin America or the Middle East sort of diminishes people's

humanity is by not affording them full agency. And I think that that happens through the actual language that we use. like the actual craft of putting our sentences together. So it's the difference between like saying a bomb went off, there was a bombing, there was a terrorist attack instead of two people detonated a bomb. Or, you know, like that sort of more active role, which I think gives people motives and agency and like already you're more interested. Yeah, I think that's a great point.

And I think part of that is because when you do frame the headline like that, so, so did this, then you have to explain why. And I think for a variety reasons, laziness, resources, you know, lack of interest perhaps, that why part has influence why we don't see headlines that are phrased that way. Yeah, totally, totally. I think that immediately you have a why, and then I think a lot of us realize that the why, especially with a terrorist attack, gets pretty complex. And so it's like, are we going to talk about? Are we going to talk about what led to the condition

so that someone found themselves in this? You know, so Alexis, you asked me, you asked me if there was a future I could see in my head, like that next step in media coverage, say. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that. Like, what would that alternate universe look like to you? I agree with you. I think it would look like a place where we're receiving stories from all corners of the world, not just told by Westerners too. I mean, told by people from those places that are nuanced and enriching and complex and that we're seeing on the home pages that we visit every day and we're seeing in a home page's that we're seeing in a lot of, our feeds. So while on the one hand, we're hearing all about Ukraine, we're also hearing all

about Ethiopia, we're also hearing about the Congo, and there doesn't feel like such a huge difference. That was staff writer Alexis O'Kewo, speaking with producer Gofan and Putabuele. And that's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of Tune Arts, with additional music by Alexis Quadrado. This episode was produced by Alex Barron, Ave Carrillo, Brito Green, Calaliyah, David Krasnow, Gofen and Putubuele, Louis Mitchell,

with help from Alison McAdam, Harrison Keithline, and Meng Faye Chen, and guidance from Emily Boutin. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherina Endowment Fund. No.