The Nick Bare Podcast - 003: Dan Churchill - Discovering The Best Diet For Optimal Health

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

On this episode, I chat with Dan Churchill, a great friend and wise council on all things nutrition. Dan is an author, CEO of Charley St protein grounds, and NYC-based performance chef who works with celebrities and professional athletes to reach their fitness goals. We clear up some confusion on trending diet topics (ever heard of seed oils?), help you find the best diet for your goals, expose false nutritional claims, and break down Dan's plant-based dieting experiment. Oh, and we discuss if you should take liver pills...enjoy the episode! Topics: (00:00) - Intro (00:51) - False nutritional claims (05:50) - Weight loss vs. fat loss (07:30) - Consumer confusion on dieting (13:00) - Diet identities (16:55) - Plant-based experiment (25:20) - Aesthetic vs. performance goals (34:00) - Hormone damage (38:15) - Finding the best diet for you (41:11) - The fifth macronutrient (47:41) - Chris Hemsworth diet (52:10) - Effects of cutting (54:00) - Conditioning in prep vs. out (59:20) - Removing seed oils (01:09:58) - Closing down the restaurant (01:19:34) - Fear of judgment (01:23:10) - Delegate and elevate (01:26:01) - Final words Follow for more: IG:⁠ https://www.instagram.com/nickbarefitness/⁠ YT:⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@nickbarefitness⁠ Keep up with Dan here: IG: https://www.instagram.com/dan_churchill/ YT: ⁠https://youtube.com/@danchurchillcooks⁠ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dan_churchill

Dude, I feel like that's a loaded question for me to, like, lose my shit. This is Dan Churchill, Australian performance chef who gets fired up about all things food. It's Dan Churchall. Hey, guys. Dan works with some of the biggest celebrities and professional athletes to help them perform and look their best. Even Thor's taking his advice. Look too hot, damn it! And today, we sat down to get his take on some controversial dieting topics.

For example, the keto diet, you don't eat any carbs. As a result, you lose all the water, and everyone's like, oh, I lost all this weight. It's great. It's not sustainable. There are going to be repercussions. I could have made like quarter of a million dollars endorsing liver pills. There are select people that are doing this. These people who are making these claims, they are helping people to an extent.

What? Unpack it. For people to claim that eating vegetables is not good for you, in fact, harms you, is total BS. Dan Churchill, is it frustrating when you see people make claims about certain diets, trends, or foods that are so obviously false, but created and marketed as an extreme for people to believe and buy. Dude, I feel like that's a loaded question for me to lose my shit. Like legitimately. I cannot tell you how fine off.

I just got just thinking of all the people doing it. Unpack it. Bro, it's fucking annoying. Like, oh, I get annoyed at the fact that social media is an amazing platform to do good. But just as much it has the amazing power to do good, it has the amazing power to do bad. And people are using SEO-driven buzzwords just to create amazing growth of themselves

over fucking claims that shit just doesn't make sense. And like, there are select people that we can talk about that are doing this. But I'm just going to put it out there from a very foundational experience. Like, for people to claim that eating vegetables or a certain type of vegetable is not good for you, in fact, actually harms you,

is total BS. So, like, there's people like Dr. Paul Saladino who talks about, and, like, doctor, okay, cool. But Dr. Paul Saladino talks about the fact that certain things like crucivorous vegetables or Brussels sprouts, he goes into, like, you know, a grocery store and he'll say, kale is bullshit. And I'm just like, bro, like, this is the same guy that claims,

I'm not going to target him too much in terms of, like, in his past, I'm just going to say, what he's saying is just saying that we don't, we shouldn't be getting dietary fiber from vegetables. We shouldn't be eating and getting any micronutrients from these things. And I just find it so frustrating because for me, and along with plenty of people out there who have worked so hard to help people understand at least the basic,

basic understanding of nutrition to support their health and their performance. Someone comes in here with a really ridiculous claim and builds a cult following because it's so ridiculous. And then, you know, yeah, fuck, it just feels, it's frustrating, dude, like to put it, to put it like in a very nutshell. Well, to be popular now, you have to be extreme, right? And SEO-driven headlines that are extreme will lead to maybe not overnight success in growth, but it will expedite the process to potentially make more money. and something that I've always been very proud about of the way we built our brand and people

that I associate with like you, it's choosing the hard right over the easy wrong. It's just doing the right thing. And while there's nothing sexy or trendy or cool about eating a balanced diet and the same meals are training the same way, it works. And we know it works. and the issue is now there's all this consumer confusion. I mean, you should see my DMs. My DMs are wild with the questions that I'm receiving about nutrition

because there's people online who are making these bold, wild, crazy claims and people don't know where to go anymore. These people who are making these claims, they are helping people to an extent make positive changes in their life. but the issue is ultimately their their extreme and their unsustainable change that eventually is just going to crumble. Dude, yeah, like 100%. Chento per Chento.

The idea that like people are still looking for that quick fix. And so it's very simple for someone to jump online and see, you know, lose 10 pounds in two weeks doing this diet. And you're like, oh, well, I'm going to do that. And all of a sudden that person gets a cult following because they may have achieved it through the fact that, you know, for example, the keto diet, you don't eat any carbs. As a result, you lose all the water because the carbohydrates help support, you know, holding onto water as well. So you lose all this water, right? And everyone's like, oh, I lost all this weight. It's great.

It's not sustainable. You're not going to, like, I've not found one person to date. And I mean, it's one, not like one person. I mean, like, one single person who is allowed, who's actually identified the fact that they've been keto for more than two years. And I, I, I, I, I'm not saying there's not people out there, but for the rest of your life, if you're going to be keto, good for you, if it works for you,

but it's a very rare phenomenon for someone or the general public, the general consensus to be able to sustain it. And the same with like, you know, this idea about avoiding vegetables. If you are going to avoid vegetables

for the rest of your life, your performance, everything, your energy, it's going to diminish. And I don't know anyone who's going to do that. Well,

there's a difference between weight loss and fat. loss. And that's the issue is like, you know, people go on these new diets and they lose weight almost instantaneously. Clear example, I'm dieting right now for this bodybuilding show. At the peak of my bulk, I was consuming 4,200 calories, I was consuming 450 grams of carbs a day. And when the muscles are topped off on glycogen with carbohydrates and there's water associated with that because the muscle is 70% water, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to weigh more. And as soon as you start pulling carbohydrates back and there's not as much glycogen,

there's not as much water potentially in the muscle, yes, there's going to be weight loss, but that doesn't mean you lost fat. That's also on post on social media last week. They lost 16 pounds in 10 days. And there's this plan to lose 16 pounds in 10 days. Yes, you lost weight. I'm sure that your glycogen is depleted. You don't have as much water in the body, but you haven't targeted fat loss, you potentially don't look better. Your body composition hasn't changed. It's just this snapshot of a moment in time because of direct changes you made that aren't long lasting, right? And people get confused with weight loss and fat loss. And if we're trying to actually target fat loss, well, this is a longer sustainable approach that's just not going to reflect

on the scale in 24, 36, 48 hours. What's like the biggest, and it could just be the answer to you, but I'm curious, what's the biggest, you know, misconception around dieting that frustrates you, that boils you up, that makes you really just get frustrated and want to hit the gym again? Because for me, it's 100%, you know, that topic I discussed earlier. It fires me. It's fucking bullshit, like straight up. So what's it for you?

Do you mean dieting in terms of fat loss or, like, dieting in terms of just, like, basic nutrition? Yeah, I think basic. nutrition where someone comes in and says, oh, you should be doing this and you're like, that's a fucking no-no. There's just so much consumer confusion because of these people who are on massive extremes. I mean, you saw a liver king blow up in the last year and everyone started eating carnivore and just meats and organs and taking desiccated organ capsules.

And it was this trend. And then we saw the downfall of that trend. very, very quickly. So a lot of the questions I get is, you know, why are you eating this? Why aren't you eating that? I saw this video. I read this book. I watched this podcast.

And, you know, we had Dr. Lane Norton on the podcast. Yeah. A few months ago. And you can find any type of study or survey that supports whatever you want. You really can. And the meat and the potatoes is the truth is in the pudding. The truth is in how that study is conducted. and, you know, what the conclusion and the results say

that are statistically significant based off the findings. But you can find a survey or a study or so on can tell you what worked for them, didn't work for others, to support whatever claim you have. So I think that's the biggest issue is nutrition somehow is getting more complicated than ever before, so the consumer is more confused. They never before.

Do I eat vegetables or do I not? Can I eat fruit? Oh, is fruit just sugar? Can I eat just grass-fed meats or can I eat any type of meats? It's like all over the place. Carbs are bad. Carbs are good. Meats are bad.

Go vegan. Don't go vegan. Go paleo. Go keto. It's so much and it's so confusing that I think people are overwhelmed with information. They don't know what step one is. And for me, I keep nutrition so simple. and so basic, that I think people would actually be mind-blown by how simple and basic I keep it.

Yeah, because you count, but you count? Right now, I'm tracking and counting macros, but if I'm not dieting for a good bodybuilding show, I'm not tracking. I don't necessarily enjoy tracking or logging food. I like just eating base off a feel. One of the biggest things we'll discuss in a second is like from our podcast of my show, the biggest thing we took away from it is how you change your mindset from eating for aesthetics to performance. which is, I think, one of the best things that people can do for the mentality in general.

But going back to what you're saying, the biggest, not the biggest issue, but I think a big foundational thing just to kind of loop everyone in on this is when a study comes out, unfortunately, people can cherry pick aspects of that study to make whatever hypothesis that they think is true or want people to believe, they make it true. And those studies can be terrible in the way they actually are conducted because they're not necessarily double-blind placebo, which is one of the best ways and most accurate ways to do a random controlled study.

The other thing is also, it's like the number of people you have in that study, or the region or the demographic, or maybe the period of age bracket, there's so many aspects of a study that people can just take the results and misguide it in a way that will make whatever hypothesis they want true.

And so I think you couple that with, social media with people who now have a bit of a following and say one thing. And as a result, their followers believe that that thing's correct. And then that starts to spin and, you know, all hell can break loose. I think that's my frustration in a nutshell. There's this thing called identity foreclosure. And Lewis and I talked about this on our podcast. And it's in his most recent book.

And I'll give an example of what identity foreclosure is and then how it's applicable to dieting. especially now in like an age of social media. So say when you're younger and you're about to go to college, say you decide you want to be a doctor. Like that is like what you think you're passionate about. Then you go through all the schooling, you go into all the debt to become a doctor, you're three years into being a doctor,

and you realize I don't want to be a doctor. But I spent all this money. I've invested all this time in being a doctor. I might as well to suck it up for another 25 years. and just be a doctor because of what I've invested so far. You identify before you are truly passionate about what you think you want to do, which is probably part of the danger of college, right? Side note, but it's just crazy that we expect people at 18, 19 years old

to decide what they want to do for the rest of their life. I've been there, you know, I've done it. but you have people now with diets where you identify with a diet, which for me makes no sense. I mean, you've seen people in the past, they've changed their whole identity to be carnivore. Like,

I'm the carnivore guy, or I'm the keto guy, or I'm the paleo guy, or I'm the vegan person. And once you so closely identify with a way that you eat, even if you want to change your mind or your beliefs, There's a lot of ego and pride behind that because you have identified. You've put that into existence.

I am this person. You don't see many people who have identified with some sort of diet ever not identify with that diet ever again. So there's this identity foreclosure early on when you say this is who I am, this is the way I eat, this is what I do, there's no turning back. And you saw this, like when keto was super popular, you saw people attached to to keto like no other. They changed everything they did to be,

I mean, they might have changed their legal name to like to keto. Yeah. It's fucking wild. The amount of like social media handles that were keto something or, you know, Sam person keto or whatever it was, it went gangbusters. But that's my point. How many people were still keto from that, you know, that period of time? Because we did have all these, even these CPG products came out.

It was like keto, those, keto this, keto that. And we looked at the recent, um, market research and just going to expos, the amount of keto products are diminishing. It's not a sustainable, it's not a, it's not a commercially viable product to have anything keto because over time, people aren't going to consistently be keto. It could be one of those things that you like go through a week of a year that you may want to be keto just for whatever reason, but it's not something that's going to be viable for the rest of your life.

It's actually interesting that you comment about CPG. So consumer package goods, CPG brands are. follow trends in diet so closely. And it is one of the most unsustainable ways to build a business. You can build and sell really quickly if you do it right. Yeah. But yeah, when keto popped off, all the keto brands that came out. And then recently as carnivores has picked up more attention,

you have all these carnivore brands now. Yep. And when like paleo and CrossFit were born and birthed, I mean, paleo, this and that, But those brands, they live and die off a unpredictable timeline. From a business owner's perspective, that's scary, man. Yeah, because we build, I mean, you've been building BPN forever, right? Like, we'll say forever. But like it's been your livelihood for, since you were, like, 18, 17?

22. I started when I was 22. Okay. The passion was burning away. Burning for years before that. So say 12 years, 10 years, whatever it is. You think about 10 years of business and how. saying you get to hear.

I can say the same thing with our product. Like, our product's only two years, not even, it's a year in. Whereas, like, I see these brands where their life cycle, as you said, is only two years. So to imagine to think about getting in, on, jumping on a trend and social media and general, like TikTok, all that kind of stuff, complete different thing. But, like, the idea that you are trying to be a part of a trend that's only going to be around for two or three years is definitely the worst way to think of building a business. Because one, you're basing on unpredictability in a marketplace that you can't control.

And you're not learning anything about the growth of how you're going to build marketing campaigns and business in general to serve your consumer base over a 5, 10, 15, 20 year period. People do it. They've been successful. Good on them. But I just don't see it being the best way to conduct any business. Have you ever gone all in and identified with a very specific diet for a longer period of time? I know you did this 10-week plant-based experiment, but that was an experiment.

Did you ever go all in on this one diet? I think the longest time I went with one thing was probably paleo during that CrossFit period, like, you know, probably 10 years ago now. I was probably paleo for about four months, four or five months. And it was just, being a chef, it was tough, dude, because I missed out on the psychological happiness I get from certain foods I couldn't cook with or taste. And so it also became apparent to me that I realized it wasn't sustainable for me and a lot of people around me to eat this way. You know, the 10-week plant-based thing, I've done plant-based for a period of time, no longer than two or three months itself. but like I do those things personally to just understand the diet better.

I think you can't really speak to a diet unless you've actually done it. You know, when people say it doesn't work or it does work, I feel that there has to be some sort of truth about you knowing it from your body. But the biggest thing for me was when I did that 10-week challenge was actually induced by people saying you couldn't build muscle on a plant-based diet. And so like I'm someone who's, you know, probably an ectomorph more than I am like, You'd be an endomezzo, right? Yeah.

So, like, I'm definitely ecto. So for me to put on weight, it's hard compared to you. I can lose weight very quickly. So I set myself the challenge of doing a plant-based diet, and the motivation was like, I'm going to do this to prove you can build lean muscle on a plant-based diet. It's also part of it setting a goal and achieving it and outcome. But, like, even when I finished,

I think one of the coolest things I realized from it is, like, if I really just wanted to go plant-based, I can still achieve all the performance needs personally I need to, but then I miss out on the things I enjoy by not being plant-based. So it's like that's not necessarily sustainable for me to continue doing this way of life. If I wanted to, you know, look after the plan a little bit more, maybe I can have less of the things that maybe induce the emissions. Like plant-based diet is probably the most sustainable option you could go down

if you were going to be doing a sustainable, if you were going to be going through a diet. But I don't for any, you know, I don't let anyone say that they should. should be doing something just because I told them to. They should find what works for them. But ultimately, we do know that eating a variety of plants and protein, whatever that choice of protein is, is going to be the best option for you. But yeah, man, I think that paleo period of time was really interesting to me. Like, I love sweet potatoes, but I got over them very quickly because it was like my only

form of major carbs because you couldn't have any rice, couldn't have pasta. Like, dude, those things give me so much joy, too. I think you've become really unhappy when you're. you don't eat the foods that you want to eat. I mean, I'm deep in it right now. I'm eight weeks into this cut. And one of my strengths is that, I say this all the time,

when I commit to something and go all in, nothing can break me. I have no issue not eating certain foods. But food does bring me a lot of joy. I love flavors. I love trying new things. one of my favorite things to do with Steph is we go to dinner and small plates. And for like three hours, I just love sitting there and like trying all these different things

or, you know, going getting a pie or trying something new. But my diet right now is so routine that it's the same thing for meal one, two, three, and four pretty much because I only have so much to manipulate in terms of carbohydrates and fats. and proteins are staying consistent right now. But where, when you were, you're a plant-based on that experiment, where were you pulling most of your protein sources from? Dude, lentils, beans, tofu. You know, the most shocking thing to me was my oatmeal in the morning that I have,

which already is plant-based, without adding any protein powder, we're still hitting like 35, 40 grams of protein. And I was like, whoa, like, I think the realization for me was the, After doing the numbers, after actually logging it, I was like, fuck. Like, that's actually pretty decent considering. And so then throughout the day, I had to make sure I hit, you know, tofu was massive. You know, black beans are always huge, lentils, nuts.

But at the end of it, like I based my thing off a, my formula was based on a study that looked at 10% increase in lean muscle mass using not. point seven times your body weight in pounds and that resulting number is the amount of number in grams of protein you should have per day. So at the time I was hitting like, I think it was like wasn't only 140 to 155. So comparing to you right now, which is like, were you in 200 and weight wise? Yeah. What are you hitting protein wise per day? 250 grams a day. You're adding an extra 100 plus grams of protein compared to me based on my body weight. But I was hitting, I was still hitting my 10% increase in muscle mass, hitting around 145 grams.

So I'd be doing that oatmeal. I'd be doing probably one shake. I'd have a lunch, have an afternoon snack, and then I have dinner and maybe dessert. And I'd hit 155 easily. If I really wanted to, I can get another 30 in from another shake if I really wanted to. But a lot came down to the mindset of applying the all-in as you talk about. If I'm going to go all-in, I need to learn about this truly to understand. what's the best way to get the protein.

I was also traveling. Like at that time, we went to, Melena and I, my partner, we went to, we went to Hawaii. So I was like,

that was another thing. It was like shocking to me. It's like still able to hit my numbers going to another place where I wasn't in my regime, wasn't, you know, prepared.

But I think if you apply yourself to something like that, like you say, like, I was all in. I'm like, I'm going to do this. So I researched everything.

I looked at the bioavailability of protein in plants versus, you know, animal waste products and looked at like, okay, well, how much do I have to make sure I have an insurance buffer for? And I did it. Like, I put on 11 pounds in 10 weeks. And it was, I was freaking lean. I'm decently lean already because of my, my, my, my, my, my, my biomass type. But like, it was, for me, all in doing it. And I, afterwards, biggest thing was like, yeah, I definitely was missing like eggs and maybe chicken or beef or whatever it is, like, on the occasion, but I genuinely looked away going, I can probably only have one meal a day if I had to

being plant-based of meat and still have the rest of it plant-based and hit easily like one 60 grams of protein, which is decent for the average person, right? I didn't, and that was the biggest revelation to me. Did you notice any significant differences in the way you felt or performed? I probably felt at times, particularly in the first two to three weeks that they say that my energy was off, without a doubt, like, you know, straight up. I, like lower. Yeah, like I, I felt when I was I was doing sleds, for example, I just felt my sleds was just like, 15% like, oh, come on. But by the end of it, man, like I was, I was increasing in weight, you know, I actually

pried, I think I was, what I peered my deadlift at the time. And so, like, I was lifting pretty decent by the end. But I also don't know, I also can't attribute that to the plant-based diet solely, other than the fact that I gave myself a 10-week plan and a 10-week eating. plan and I actually executed because now obviously I'm doing a lot of running for the things I'm doing. So I don't want to say the plant-based diet was the

reason why I was able to PR a deadlift. I think it was going all in on making sure I maintained a nutritional strategy along with my lifting strategy, but it just does show that you put them side by side and we see this. There's actually studies that do show that you can still

hit the same increase in muscle mass and strength by being on that diet. But I will say It still is dependent on the individual and I don't endorse people have to be plant-based, spino-means. I do want to talk about the difference between aesthetic goals and performance goals.

Huge. And especially with diet. You know, I grew up in the fitness space and time. 2012, 2012, 2013, 2014, if it fits your macros and flexible dieting became super popular. Yeah, bro. And the whole, like, tagline behind,

if it fits your macros is you can eat pop tarts and get shredded. Sure. And you were seeing people do it. You know, calories in versus calories out. You were seeing, and you probably still do see. I think the consumer is becoming more educated and putting more emphasis on quality of foods now than they were 10 years ago. Yeah.

10 years ago, like people would have their macros, say 200 grams of protein, 300 grams of carbs, 80 grams of fat. And they were eating whatever they wanted as long as they hit those numbers. and body composition was directly correlated and changing to those numbers. You were seeing people get to 6% body fat, step on stage in eating some garbage food. Terrible shit. Right? And over the last decade, quality has definitely become more of a priority. And this is my first physique goal right now, man, in a long time.

The last couple years has been strictly performance. Triathlons, ultras, marathons, just a hybrid training. And I haven't tracked any nutrition during that time. I just focused on, you know, protein was obviously a big focus, getting enough dietary fat. I never really worried about carbs. The carbs were always part of my diet. And I just focused on quality of nutrition and foods and where they're being sourced to support my training. but now that I'm back in this physique goal,

it's strictly numbers, although my diet is very, very clean. You know, it's super high quality foods, but that's just how I eat. I always prioritize quality, but now I'm secondary focused on quantity. And there's just such a difference in between focusing on aesthetics versus performance,

especially when it comes to body composition changes. For performance goals for me, and I explained to you earlier, this is probably going to be my last physique goal ever. I wanted to do this bodybuilding show because I truly wanted to do it. And there's nostalgia behind it as well because when I first built the brand,

I mean, BPN, that was a bodybuilding gym rat brand, and that's why I loved about fitness at that point. So this series right now, this goal is so nostalgic for me that it's bringing back these old vibes that I missed so much. But with that being said, I'm not eating for performance, so energy is low. I can feel that my hormones are decreasing. The deeper I get into this cut,

I'm nervous to see how low my hormones actually get. And we'll get blood work done. But I'm getting shredded, right? I'm losing body fat. I'm looking, quote-unquote, significantly better, subjectively. but they're so different. There's such different goals where there's a feeling associated

with performance goals. Like a vitality, a energy associated, but a physique goal, although you may subjectively look better, you may also feel worse. How do you navigate this with being a performance chef

for people who want both performance and aesthetics. Do you lead with performance and kind of communicate that aesthetics will follow? How do you approach this? Before I ask that, I want to ask you a question. What's harder for you right now, mentally? Is it getting the time beside to put your meals together or thinking about going to the gym and lifting or hitting the track in a certain way? Mentally, what's tougher for you? What's interesting about that is none of it. None of it. is mentally hard for me, but I see the effect that it has on people around me. For example, my wife likes doing date nights and we have a seven-month-old daughter. So getting out to date night

is something we want and love to do, but we can't necessarily because I have to stick to my diet because I'm eight weeks out from this show. So that is something that has affected my lifestyle. Like for me, when I say I'm going to do this bodybuilding show, I'm going to stick to this diet for 16 weeks. I'm going to be super dialed in. I can go all 16 weeks and not miss a day where I miss a macronutrient goal. I will get spot on. Yes, there's cravings. There's a want for me to go have like a burger and fries right now.

But that temptation doesn't tempt me enough to go pursue it. Because when I commit to something, I obsess on it, I'm all in. I've never had that issue, but it's the people that it affects around me, which makes it difficult because it is a selfish goal. And it really restricts what you can and cannot do the rest of that day. With performance goals, you know, I'd be training for a marathon. I go hit a 16-mile workout at marathon pace. Yes, my diet is dialed in.

But if my wife wants to go get cocktails and dinner on a Friday night, I'm going to get cocktails in dinner. Absolutely. There's nothing holding me back. But that's what's making this prep very difficult is you can't do that. Yeah, dude, straight up, you just absolutely pinpointed. One of the biggest things people neglect is not you per se, it's the people around you. And how much, you know, bodybuilding can be a selfish sport, but in the right way. because you're dedicating yourself to a given task that you want to achieve.

And the people around you who love you want to support you doing that. But at the same time, it's like still at the detriment of them. So when it comes to the aesthetic versus the performance basings, these are some of the questions we have to actually sit down with the athlete and be like, are you prepared to do this? Are you prepared to let people around you know this is the situation is going to be? Because typically what happens is with athletes, their mood changes quite drastically. they've got a lot more pressure writing on them with sponsorship and results and goals.

So you always outline the benefits of, you weigh out the cons, right? So most of them are an agreeance that no matter what, performance is the number one thing they need to achieve. And the food associated with that that's going to help best achieve that should be the focus. In saying that, being in the media spotlight, there are certain things that they want to make sure they're still maintaining. I'm also responsible for their overall health. So it's not just the physical aspect, but nutrition has such a dialed in response as we talked

about with hormones and everything goes on with their happiness. So there's a lot of the time, at the end of the day, they are technically the client and I have to do what they say, but I will hammer home the importance of performance over aesthetic. A good performance chef will be able to achieve, you know, within reasonable grounds, a bit of both. Not to say that you have to, you shouldn't be on the fence. I'll definitely lean more towards performance.

But if they're feeding, if you're feeding the right nutrition, it's tasty, it's enjoyable. And they're hitting the, you know, the gym and the field like they should be. You can still achieve relatively what they want through the aesthetics that try and achieve. The difference is like in weightlifting or, you know, some of these things where even in the females, particularly in female sports, it's actually more dominant in. males, but in the female sports where, you know, weight is a big aspect towards the actual performance, whereas, like, you know, there's certain sports where weight may not be directly correlated with their ability to perform per se, but you need to make sure they still look good

for themselves to feel like they can perform. It's a really weird, it's a really weird circle. But ultimately, performance is first, as to take a second, but a good chef will be able to achieve both. You know, during this, this build and this bulk that I did, I think I ended up being like seven and a half months that I, you were big, bro, that I balked. I felt great, I felt strong, got up to, you know, 228 pounds. And this was the first time in a while. I came off a lot of endurance preps.

This was the first time in a while, I would say I was eating in a caloric surplus. Yep. Because when I was running these marathons, I was training for the Iron Man, I wanted to hold a certain level of leanness, and I wanted to be lighter to be faster. Yeah, obviously. And my hormones reflected that, right? What I saw when I was building and bulking

over the seven and a half month period is my hormones actually started to recrect. I think my total testosterone got back at the peak that I saw it was close to 600. Nice. Nanograms per deceditor. What did it down to again? I mean, during this last marathon,

On prep, the lowest I saw it was at 230 nanograms per decilator. And I was feeling that. I was feeling that. And that's why I do blood work is, you know, I can feel. I know when like a prep or a diet is tanking my hormones, you can just, you can feel it. Totally. I like getting blood work for the objective data to just like reinforce. But then just to learn, like, okay, when I do this, this is what happens to the body.

during the build, I saw it got close to 600 nanograms per decilator, which I was feeling really, really good. Energy, libido came back, vitality came back, and then now that I'm back in this cut, we're actually getting blood work done tomorrow. That's interesting. And I'm so curious, because I know it's lower again, obviously. I'm feeling the effects of the diet.

Yep. But we still have eight more weeks left. Sure. I remember watching, like, this one natural bodybuilder, his name's Chris Elkins. He did, uh, he did blood work like a week before his, his pro show. And he got lean, like, he's a pro. So he gets, he gets shredded lean. And I want to say his total testosterone was below 100.

What? Nanograms per decilator. And people will probably listen to this hearing like, why, why are you, why are you intentionally tanking your hormones? But, you know, to get that lean, to get. stage lean, there are going to be negative consequences. There's going to be cons. And that's why these pro-natural bodybuilders or natural body builders in general, you can only hold that level of leanness for so long because your body doesn't want to

stay there. But I've seen this correlation in hormones and diet and trying to hold a certain weight or leanness. And then depending on what I'm training for and how I'm eating. But I do think that when you're going after a certain performance goal, there are going to be repercussions naturally to your body. Look at Ryan Hall, marathon runner, elite Olympic marathon runner. He had to retire because his hormones were tanked so low.

But it's because he was at such a high level performance that sometimes the highest performers are not necessarily at their healthiest. point in time. Dude, all we have to do is look at the legendary female athletes. All women go through irregular menstrual cycles as a result of the amount of athletic performance and what they're doing to their body to achieve a performance goal, right? That alone is to help shape and understand there are a multitude of factors that come into play.

But yes, like for you example, you know, testosterone being one, the fact that you objectively get the data and not just do it one time but go back and retest is the pinnacle of what we can be doing to understand what not only diet but factors are affecting our daily performance not athletic performance but our daily performance you know people say what's the best diet for me and it's ultimately one that we will say the one that works but one thing you can do if you fill up for it and have the resources is to test through blood work and retest certain period of time after. It's the most accurate way. It's objective. It's numbers. And like even you said, it's like, dude, my testosterone's low. I need to change it. And you did. And you can know now.

And now what's great is you're starting to understand it without even needing to get the data from blood work. You can sense it. And that's one of the things we, you can take that same concept with, you know, understanding of macronutrients. I'm not big on counting. I'm not big on count. numbers by any means. I don't want to do mathematics when I sit down and do my food. But when I did that oatmeal bowl for the first time realizing, oh my God, there's quite a lot of nutrients in here that I just neglected. It just put into perspective every time I have my oatmeal ball in the morning, at least I'm getting that much amount of protein. And the same thing over time. I don't believe you ever need to scale anything anymore because you know when you look at your bowl, you can

determine what that is just by repetition and habit and understanding. So, I think a lot of the stuff we're talking about here is twofold. One, by getting blood work done, you definitely have the ability to have a baseline and ability to adjust. Intrinsically knowing certain things, whether it be numbers or how you feel, and that athletic performance has a profound impact on your hormones, but it is important to understand that there are two types of goals when it comes to aesthetic versus a performance goal. And you can't try and, you can't try and do both.

well, you have to lean on one side and then see if you can also include the other along for the ride, like a little sidecar, like Batman, effectively. I mean, I will always lead it's funny I say this now as I'm in a body but I'm sure, sure, sure, sure. I will always lead with performance goals. Of course. And let aesthetics follow based on performance goals and eat for performance.

Yep. Just feel better. It's more enjoyable. It's more sustainable. It doesn't affect the people in my lives as much. But this is the chapter that I'm in right now. And what's amazing about is you learn through every one of these journeys. And now that I'm back in this bodybuilding prep, I'm learning a lot again about body composition and macronutrients and metabolic adaptations as we get deeper into this cut.

And it can help people along the way as well. It's going back through these processes again to re-spark. You know, I've done bodybuilding preps before. I've done diets, but it re-sparks this, this education and knowledge of, oh, yeah, I forgot X, Y, and Z works for X, Y, and Z. So it's been interesting. It's amazing when you do go back through certain things. Like, we've got the three macanutrients that we know of.

Then you've got water, which is the fourth. And I've been thinking about the best way to get people across micronutrients more, because I think we, I talk about this lot, it's coming out and like, I don't know to tell you, I'm doing a book, right? Do you tell you that? You do not tell me that. I'm doing a book. So one of the things I talk about is the fifth macronutrient.

And I only became this once I was starting to eat food again in a way that was a bit more methological. I think I think that's correct. Methoth, meth, meth, yeah. By the way, can you do me a favor? Yes. My favorite word that Nick Bear says is, if I'm, I don't want to say the word. I want you to say it first. So not suicides, but what do you call them?

Intervals. intervals. It's like you don't say the tea. Intervals. I mean, it's probably my Pennsylvania accent. 100% dude. Anyone who's from Pennsylvania knows as soon as they talk to me. I don't think I have an accent.

I was hoping that when I got to Texas, I was going to get a Texas accent. That's probably one of the biggest disappointments of my entire life is not getting a southern accent after living in the South. Well, I'm just excited for the fact that I know Jordan's going to cut that out up into an asset already. I can just know that already. Oh, it probably will be.

But yeah, dude, back to the point, I think, like, going back, it's maybe realized the neglect we still have on micronutrients. So I'm making a pretty, very much a very consistent effort and dedicated to this whole new concept around the fifth macronutrient, making sure we get our colors and our veggies in, which I talk to you like that anyway. But what is the fifth? The fifth is essentially like you've got, as I said, proteins, your fats, your carbs, you get your water, which is your fourth. And your fifth one is all the colorful ingredients that you have that essentially get your carotene, your B12, you're farming, your zinc, all the things that we need to trace minerals to support all the stuff that those macronutrients do.

I think I was telling you the, I can't remember if we did this in the last podcast, but I was talking about how if protein was cement and you're building a stadium, In order for that cement to get and actually be the structure of the stadium, it has to get into a cement truck. It has to be driven down a highway by someone, has to go all through the green lights, not red lights, it has to go through all the green lights.

It then has to get to the actual site, tipped, and someone has to pour them in the right areas. All those intricate parameters are either some sort of micronutrient role or responsibility. And so if we focus so much on the proteins, the fats and the carbs and neglect all these other parameters that take place in order for those things to do their job, you might as well just have these things floating around your system because you need all these other areas to help build that stadium. Otherwise, it's just floating cement.

When's the book coming out? Dude, it'll be early, it says early next year now. So I signed the deal about two months ago. and yeah, it's a cookbook, but front matter around editorial, nutrition, and performance. Love that. Yeah, it's going to be sick. You're featuring in it, by the way. Oh, hell yeah.

You know that? I did not do that. All right, yeah, you get a recipe and everything. Dude. Yeah, it's going to be sick. Thanks, man. Of course, man. I need to make sure that you're not too big, though, by the time the actual book comes out,

otherwise, I look too small. Well, let's do the photo shoot for it after my show. Yeah. The day after the show, I'll be all tanned up and shredded. It's like... I'm going to look really pasty, and you're going to look huge and lean. It's going to be great. Well, what's interesting is the Go on More, the BPN Go on More Marathon is the day after the bodybuilding show.

Oh, is it? Are you running it? No, I'm not running it. No, I'm being in bad shape. Originally, we were going to do a show in Tampa, Florida. Okay. And I was trying to logistically figure out how to get from Tampa, Florida, back to Texas overnight. And there's no commercial planes that could make it happen.

So I looked into private. You did? You did you, you're PJ? No, I'm not doing it because dude, I got it priced down.

It was like $28,000. Oh yeah. Absolutely not. I'll move the show. Do you fly first class? No. Yeah. Unless we have Charlie,

if we have Charlie with us, we'll fly first class because it's just much more convenient having a baby. But if we're not, if we don't have Charlie, no,

we don't fly first class. Right. So you'd go from like spending 500 bucks to $200 to $20, Yeah, I couldn't justify that. No. So I moved the show. It's in Texas now.

It's three hours from here. Cool. We'll finish the show. We'll drive back. Go on more marathon the next morning. But I'll be all pro-tanned up. I'll be like, I'll be a different shade. I'll be ten different shades darker than everyone else there.

You'd look like, you know, you look like the Oscar. You know, the Oscar? You're going to look like that. And everyone else is just going to be great. Well, you know, last year, I hugged everyone that crossed a finish line. Yeah. And I put a ribbon over their neck. I'm doing a shirtless this year.

I'm not putting 16 weeks of work in. Just a step on a stage. It's actually in a hotel conference room. Yep. I'm like, I'm doing that shirtless. That's so funny, dude. You actually, and you can eat, you're going to be so big because you're going to have all your sugar afterwards too, aren't you?

I'll be so. Yeah. You know, what's, you know, peak week for a bodybuilding show is it's so, different than like a peak week for a marathon or you're trying to top off all your glycogen without kind of going over. You don't want to look watery, but you want,

where people make a lot of mistakes is they cut water in sodium prior to a show to try to come in looking more dry and shredded, but your muscle is 70% watered. So when you cut water, your muscles are looking, flatter and smaller. And people cut sodium.

And they can't get a pump. They can't get a contraction. So if we get lean enough, the plan is we're not cutting any water or sodium. Like it should don't be topped off. And then I'm going to have the most epic cheeseburger and fries after that show that I can find in Dallas. Dude,

I don't know you've seen. Have you seen Limitless with Chris Samsworth? No. Oh, yeah, I have seen that. Yeah. So it was so funny. Just to recap for anyone who hasn't watched it,

there's a period of time where he had to fast and he was doing it with Zocco, who's one of his close mates and his trainer, also a center expert as who's like, you know, he's go-to man. And these guys are close mates for a very long time. And the idea was they meant to fast together. But then Chris, then Luke and Aaron were told they had to eat food when Chris still had to fast, but Chris didn't know this. So it was like, you meant to do this as a group. and Chris got really frustrated.

You see it in the episode because the boys were like in front of him eating all this food. And you can see that like the concept of fasting in a state where similar to bodybuilding, you become really your emotions just adjust. Your inability to control your temper changes and adjusts. And it really is a highlight when it comes to food and how we place it as how the brain responds to sugars and things like that. It's also conversely,

he, you see that moment in Thor? Have you seen Thor, the latest one? I haven't seen it now. Oh, dude, there's a moment where he like gets his shirt off and he like had, I don't know how many weeks of prep they have for this.

And he was so jacked. And he got so jacked because he had a snicker bar right before that performance. So he filled out. He filled out like a ridiculous man. It was crazy. If anyone hasn't seen the photo, you can just go to Thor, love and thunder on Google,

and you'll see Chris just looking at, Absolutely jacked. Do you do his diet? I don't do his diet. Luke does from Center as well. So we do all the stuff for Center. And then Luke is just, he's had so many years of understanding cuts and everything

through the industry because he was able to like, you know, be on set. He's on set with like the who's who's of trainers for so many years now. But yeah, it's interesting because everyone thinks like, oh, you're Chris's chef.

I'm like, nah, dude, I don't live with him. Great bloke. but I live with him. Luke handles all these nutrition and roll-up. We base a lot of it basically on the center plans. So it helps. How long does Chris diet for a show?

About three and a half months. Like they're given, so how it works is you're given like a date. They give you like two-day window. Like they're going to be shirtless on these days. And you have to like, okay, so you have to perfect. It's kind of similar to bodybuilding. Did they carve up for those days?

Yeah. Because he also responds really well to carbs. Here's a question. Does Nick Bear do steroids? I do not. And you will see this in my blood work when I share it. I love it. I love it because I know that's going to be a caption

because Chris gets that same question. Yeah. You two, you and Chris, are the two people I get asked the most going, what type of steroids are they on? And it fucking frustrates me. It shits me because people don't think hard work is a thing. But anyway, I won't go into it. I won't build up your blood for a second.

And that's going to get yowing. I mean, like, it goes back. to what we were talking about in the beginning. You know, this whole, like, liver thing, Liver King thing blowing up this year. Everyone knew he was on gear. Everyone knew he was on gear.

And when it finally came out, people were surprised. Right? So a lot of, like, the comments on my photos or DMs recently since then had been, here's Liver King 2.0. Oh, you bullshit. Really? So I'm like, this motherfucker

ruined so much shit for so many people. Would you happen on the show? No, absolutely not. Were you ever considering doing a liver pill? No, I never, I never bought into the desiccated... Did you see the amount of supplements that were coming out from brands on liver? Everyone was launching a desiccated organ capsule during that whole time. I reckon I could have made, I think I got offered a couple of brand deals.

I could have made like quarter of a million dollars endorsing liverpies. liver pills. It was freaking ridiculous. They blew up. It's just crazy. They blew up. But, you know, it's, we showed blood work throughout the whole hybrid build. Uh, we're doing this blood work tomorrow. And I know we'll see a positive correlation, or maybe it's a negative correlation, positive correlation with as we get deeper into the cut, total testosterone will decrease. Hormones will, we'll get tanked. But I had that realistic expectation. But I had that realistic expectation going into this, this cut. You just know that's going to happen that as you decrease calories and volume for

training is still high, you're trying to hold on to as much muscle mass as possible. Yes, you are going to lose muscle mass during the process. Naturally, it's just going to happen. And I have a Dexascan tomorrow too. I'm nervous to see how much lean muscle mass has been lost. In the last couple of weeks What are we aiming for? You're going to put it out

You've got to put in the waves right now. I mean, I hope there's like less than a pound. Okay. Less than a pound of lean mass lost in the last couple weeks. But you know, you get deeper in a cut. You feel flat. You don't feel as full. You feel smaller.

I feel like I'm getting swallowed up in my t-shirts that I'm wearing. Oh, welcome to my world, dude. Just constantly. Bro, I like, yeah, I look at you. And I'm just like, when you say, When you, when I say, when you said that photo on, when you put the photo on Instagram of you before Buffalo and you looked lean, I'm like, he still looks bigger than I'm ever going to be. And you were like, I look like a dweeb. Like, I remember calling you and you were like, dude, I feel like shit.

This is the worst thing. It was fast. Yeah. You got, yeah, you did. It was fast. So, too 50, bro. Like, fuck. What were you weighing in, 187?

I got down on 187 at the lowest. It's the lowest. It's all on the scale. But when I would run, I would just feel like I was floating. Yeah, I did. It was almost like nothing. Yeah. And, you know, we were just filming a video this past week on the track.

And I can see, most people probably can't see it. I can see a big difference in just my running efficiency and form now as opposed to when I was in marathon prep. Yeah, marathon prep. My training volume was much higher. I was running more. I was lighter. I wasn't training resistance as heavy. But my form was just so efficient and fluid.

And now it's just my leg turnover isn't where it was during marathon prep, which is expected. But the body adapts so well to a stimulus that you provided over a period of time. And that's what I love to see. And that's what I'm amazed by is how quickly the body will adapt and become efficient to operate in some sort of specific form. You're running right now a bit heavier than you were for the Buffalo, different goal set, completely different goal set.

Do you find that your, almost like your stride technique is off, but your cardiovascular system is improving as a result of having to deal with the added stress of that? Like, for example, you were floating for Buffalo. Like, you were just like in a role. So right now, when you don't have that same biomechanics doing its work,

you're actually putting more stress on the body. Do you find that you actually have a high threshold right now? No, my threshold isn't as high right now. I was just talking to someone about this this past weekend of the Austin Marathon. Marathon preps are like this, this magical experience where you accumulate all this stress over weeks and months. Yeah. And then you taper and you show up race day. And it's this magical day because you are in perfect conditioning, you are at your peak level of performance to run as fast as possible for 26.2 miles. Three weeks before that and three weeks after that, you are not going to run that same pace in time and peak performance. It is this small window that you create through a build, through stress, and then through a taper.

And right now, I'm not, like, right now, if you threw me out there, I'm not running this up through our marathon. I'd have to go through a prep to recreate those conditions to get back to that point. What could you do right now? Straight up. If I said to me, let's go for a marathon time. What would you get? I think I could run a 310.

Fuck you, dude. Are you kidding? You know 310 right now? I think I could run a 310, 315 right now. Oh my God. You're a dickhead. That's amazing. Good on you, bro.

I still feel fast. Like, we did a track workout. this past week. You're running sixes, dude. Yeah, I was doing like one of my old marathon prep track workouts and I was able to hold those splits. Funny thing though, this morning, I tried doing one of my old Iron Man prep bike workouts.

Was I telling you about this? No. Yeah, so I got back on the bike this morning. First time I got back on the bike on the trainer in the garage since Iron Man prep. A year and a half ago? Yeah. And, you know, I use Zwift, which is the software.

that connects to your bike trainer. And all my settings in Zwift were from when I was in Iron Man Prep. So it had my FTP, my functional training power at 343 watts. So I was like, screw it, let's just stick with this. And I'll choose an interval workout.

It's baked into Zwift and we'll use that FTP. And the first interval it had me doing was one minute at 365 watts and one minute at 430 watts. Smoked my balls. I instantly after that interval, I mean, I could barely even move the pedals towards the end of that one minute. It's a long minute.

I had to go and readjust my FTP and Swift, but the reason I'm telling that story is to provide context, you don't realize how conditioned you are sometimes when you go into one of these preps. And you can't replicate that same workout or training when you're not in that same focus type of prep. That's the beauty of being obsessed and controlled with a process is that when you're in it,

sometimes you don't rise how much you're changing and adapting and growing. But then you remove yourself from for a period of time. You try to go back in. It's, holy shit, I was fit. Yeah, bro. And objectively, when numbers are there, it's hard to put that in perspective, right? It's the same thing.

If you're living day by day, to see the changes, but if you have markers along the way that help you identify, then it's like a good to reflect upon, you know, and it's always good to sit. Like, it humbles you, what happened to you as, it humbles you, but also makes you realize you probably can't, you couldn't lift as much than as you can now. Like, what are you deadlifting right now? I think my deadlift at its peak during the build got back to like 610 pounds. Nice.

But I could have kept pushing it, but, you know, it's, it's that line of, do I want to get injured? Yeah. Or do I want to get stronger? Yeah, no, it's smart, intentional. Yeah. I want to talk about seed oils. Oh, yes. The question is, do we need to remove omega-6 fatty acids,

or do we need to reduce omega-6 fatty acids? Okay, so about 100 years ago, omega-6 to omega-3 ratio was a one-to-one. So that means for every one omega-3 you had one omega-6 fatty acid. Now, they're both really important, all right? Omega-3, anti-inflammatory. Omega-6, pro-inflammatory, which both serve genuine purposes for bodily function, response to inflammation, immune support, keeping things in check.

over time due to Western society and dieting and, you know, the, I guess the influx of marketing and cheap products, the ratio has blown out to up to 1 to 20. So that means for every one unit of Mega 3, we're having 20 times the amount of units of mega 6. And so why that's a bad thing is we're living in a pro-inflammatory environment. We're having more difficult times of reducing the onset of inflammation, which has a direct link with six of the major causes of disease in America. So in a world where seed oils come into play is seed oils have always been around.

Like you think of all the seed oils that we cooked with for many years used, just all of a sudden they become more apparent in terms of the understanding their maybe their effects on our diet. What's important to note is seed oils can be present, but if our ratio is around a 1 to 15 to 1 to 20, they're not good to consistently have in accordance with everything else in our diet. You either have to increase the amount of omega-3s to balance out the omega-6s you are having,

or you have to reduce the amount of omega-6s you are having. And so seed oils do not help. because they have a high omega-6 count to them. So in a nutshell, we don't have to remove them if we are balancing them with a high intake of omega-3 fatty acids. And so, you know, you see a lot of brands out there who are now saying they're seed oil-free. Like my product, Charlie Street grounds,

the Charlie Street Bolognais and Charlie Street, Cherizo, both are made of extra virgin olive oil and are free of seed oils, right? but I'm not marketing them specifically as a seed oil-free product, not because I don't want people to, you know, highlight that. I just think seed oils is a smaller marketing opportunity than say actual veggies, you know. And so I think seed oil to the point of what we're talking about earlier is, is it a fad? I don't see it being like a massive trend.

I still think it's kind of niche, but I definitely see consumers impacting retailers on what they're putting on their shelves? It's definitely been of growing concern. There's been more attention on seed oils and mass marketing. And I agree that we need to reduce consumption of omega-6 seed oils, but trying to completely remove, one is extremely difficult.

I was out of dinner a few months ago, and there was me and staff a couple that were really good friends with and a couple that we didn't know and the couple that we didn't know they were really into health and fitness and they asked the restaurant to use seed oils can I see the seed oils and they used canola oil I believe to to cook on the stove top. A lot of restaurants will use some sort of canola or vegetable oil. And she refused to eat there because of the seed oils that you used to cook the food. That's an extreme.

And that's where, like, in my honest opinion, there are certain exposure to seed oils that you're going to consume, especially if you're going out for dinner. You can only control so many variables. But for me, it's, I'm okay with consuming seed oils. If I'm going on to dinner, I can't avoid it. If they have an option where there's not seed oils, yeah, for sure. Like, if you're cooking this in olive oil or like a beef tallow or something like that,

yeah, for sure, I'll go for that option. But if it's not an option, I'm still going to consume that food. Yeah, like I think that comes down to your level of extreme. And to put that in perspective, it's like you're an extremist when it comes through your diet because you're right now so dedicated to whatever you're trying to achieve, right? But that's your perspective on what you were doing. Some people would be like, that's too much for me.

So some people here, that's super important to them to not have any seed oils. So like respectfully, I totally agree. I think it's a bit much not to do that. But you can also argue that walnuts are higher in omega-6. Does that mean we don't have walnuts anymore? No, I think it just comes down to being educated, understanding the negatives, but then weighing up what's real. You're going to go out to, I would say,

so my restaurants don't use seed oils, right? But I would say 90% of restaurants do, right? And that is a big assumption, say 90%. But I reckon I walk down the street and if I went and looked at the pantry of every single restaurant, I would be very confident to say at least nine out of 10

would contain a seed oil in their premises. What do you guys use? Do you guys use olive oil? Olive oil. Yeah, extra version of oil. Yeah. It's, dude, it's like, you know, building a brand is so important to me to be authentic and genuine, just like BPN has from the start. So with Charlie Street, like, my biggest point of difference is always having actual veggies in the product.

It's high in protein. It's good for you. And no one can ever, you know, take that away from me. Every single product that we produce is going to be like that. Taste awesome, high in protein and made out of real shit that you can pronounce. Like, that's by fine. And I'm like, I think that's part of my, like, my ethos and why things take longer for, say, me to grow my brand. Because I'm doing it the right way slowly.

And also, like, you know, I'm not doing it with buzzwords and saying that you should, like, saying that Brussels sprouts are bullshit. I'm saying, like, you should be doing this in a way. It's sustainable. So, but yeah, I think, I think seed oil is back to your point is there are those people who are going to be extremists who, like, don't want to touch them. Cool. That's their opinion.

I actually respect that and think that's fair. But in terms of living conditions right now, it's like we do have to go a long way in educating the mass population and what seed oils can do and what our options are. And I think responsibly, restaurants should have options.

If they want to use canola because it's cheaper and easy to cook with, cool. But they should also have the extra virgins and the olive oils that will allow people who want to be seed oil only, a seed oil free, allow them to also dine at their restaurant as well.

I mean, pass that on to the consumer. Dude, straight on. If you're using a higher quality oil or meat, you don't have to eat that margin. No. Pass that on to the consumer. Straight up. When I go out to dinner,

it's not to, I never go out to dinner thinking, how can I save a buck? For me, when I go to dinner, it's, I want the experience, the atmosphere, high quality, good tasting foods, good cocktail,

if not dieting for a bodybuilding show. Because I feel better after consuming that. You go out to dinner night after night after night and you're living, traveling, and you're trying to feel good and operate well and think clear and perform at a high level. And when you're consuming crap, sometimes, too, you just can't avoid it.

You know, you go to a restaurant, you order like a chicken dish, and you think, well, chicken's leaner, but with the sauces and the oils that's cooked in, it's like 100 grams of fat in that chicken dish. For me, it's, you know, especially the deeper I get into this cut, going out to dinner, it's really hard to estimate the calories that are in that dish when someone else is cooking it, especially when it tastes really, really good.

You're like, there's no way. there's nothing in this. I remember talking to you about controlling the controllable and you can control what you purchase at the grocery store. You can control what you cook at home. You can even control what you order on the menu. But if you go out to a restaurant and you don't have control about what they're doing

in the back of the kitchen, I think the best thing to do is maybe treat that as a treat as best as you can and then control what you can the rest of the week. Because ultimately, as you said, it's like if you want to live a sustainable life, we're going out to dinner and doing things like this, whether it be with your partner, by yourself or with friends, that's a big part of your life, your social health.

And if you're constantly stressing about what kind of foods you're putting into your body, you're taking away from that serotonin, those endorphins. And so I think there should be a great emphasis on us eating for enjoyment, not just aesthetics or even performance. And I think that's something we lacked right now. So to the point, going out to a restaurant, understanding if there's seed oils or not or sugars or whatever, Like, hey, still make the decision on the menu,

thinks best for you if you want to. But don't go in there with a preconceived notion. You're going to try and get something that's only what you want. Let's talk about closing down in the restaurant. What's that process been like? So I've got to give it to my business partner, Kieran. He's been handling the restaurant side as we continue to grow the product side. But it's honestly, man, like, I mean this, you know, like friends, you know,

man, I'm quite optimistic in life. I'm also real. I'm a realistic person. I cannot tell you how happy I was the last day of service because it's not even a shame thing to say. Like I, we got to the position where the product was taking up so much of my time. And, you know, what we do creatively, we are the running back, we're the quarterback, we're everything.

So like to then have another whole team to have to be on to like support and grow, it just wasn't going to be sustainable to take, take on these projects. And so I felt instant relief. The toughest part was the amazing community that we had built and fortified and, like, created relationships and harvested. That was the hardest thing. So it was like having to say goodbye to those people we saw so often. But man, I couldn't, I honestly, like, I couldn't be happier because I was getting super, like, stressed, having to, like, go fly somewhere, come back. you know, we go to a university for our product and come back and, like, have to jump on the line because someone pulled out of service.

And I was like, then all my videos and stuff that I was doing, I just couldn't get done. So then my personal team's getting the shits. And they're like, well, we can't do the work that you want us to do to hit our goals. So it was just a cycle. And so as soon as that went away, it was like, wow. Like, it's, you know, it was a blessing. And I think what was the amazing thing is we did build this amazing opportunity for ourselves out of this place, you know.

Now we're getting into the likes of like Indiana University, Michigan with our product. And we're helping them save money. We're helping them add quality nutrition to their students. And not only that, it's like in a world where restaurants are struggling to get the right staff, we're saving line time. So we're actually solving problems for these places. And it's just really exciting, man. And the product's great.

Thanks, bro. Yeah, it's awesome, man. This is a great lesson. Like I started out thinking it was a plant-based product and like I'm not plant-based so it doesn't matter. But the product's actually a added veg product. So say we're talking about the macronutrients before, right? So you have, say you're adding your ground beef.

You add in, say, our bolognese ground mix, mushrooms and cauliflower and then a red sauce. You've got all your macronutrients, that fifth macronutrient. You got your protein, have it with some pasta or whatever you have it on. And that is a complete meal. and you don't have to worry about chopping, prep, anything, you just got to sear it off. And so when you're dealing with these big mess halls who have so much vegetables to chop, so many staff they have to look after, for us to be able to solve that problem by adding that to like ground turkey or ground beef or even still keeping it plant base because it's high in protein,

it was solving so many problems and it tastes awesome. So for me, man, like my goal right now is to get across all the universities and then get to like an operating partner that can. can take it on and then continue to build brand equity after that. And I think like I really see that path, man. Like even just speaking to people like you and Jimmy DeSico and being around the group that we have, it's just we all learned from each other. And it's really, it's a really exciting time because there's been so many people who are

in this space unable to continue. So there's only more opportunity for those people that can survive. But I think one of the biggest things is simply just giving myself more time by closing that restaurant down, allowing me to focus on on the process. product. How long was the restaurant open before we closed it? Four years? I hear it's a tough business. Bro, toughest business ever. Especially like, I'm going to selfishly talk about me for a second. Like, my partners are amazing. I had my personal business growing. So like, you know, all the stuff that people see me doing socials. And then, you know, this business still required me to operate and be the

owner of. So I'm like, that was just tough, man, because I love cooking, I love being a chef, I love having the restaurant, but it ultimately was, it's, you know, you had COVID. Like, we were crushing before COVID. COVID happened. Changed the game for everything. You know, like, I've never drawn a salary from that restaurant, but others did. And so all of a sudden, like, 95% out of revenue, you went the other way. And you're like, oh, God, well, I'll continue you're doing my stuff, I'll go even more full-time into the restaurant to support my team. And then you're just like, it's so hard to recover from that, you know. And then people weren't coming back because of after, after COVID, they got paid money

to stay at home and they had a whole new perspective on what working was and how many, like, hey, restaurant, being a chef, tough work. And even on chefs, like front of house, tough business. So now what I work with companies and restaurants and hotel groups, it's so exciting to go into there knowing like what my perfect model would be to work with who I would say yes to and who I'd say no to and I learn a lot from that early days in this space. I'm sure it's tough to close the restaurant. Partly, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this is the way I kind of see

like partly from like a just ego perspective. It's hard to close something down. But I think it's the wrong way to look at it. because your mission isn't changing, your mission is evolving. Going back to like, you know, I just had Lewis from the podcast yesterday.

I said there's a lot that I'm thinking about through his most reason book. And he talks about having this meaningful mission in life. And that meaningful mission will evolve and change. And you have to accept the change as it's happening because if you don't accept the change and make the decision to do something with it, or then you start becoming resentful and overwhelmed and stress and you lose that passion.

And once you lose that passion and spark, it's so hard to get it back. So when you feel your mission is evolving, the best thing you can do for yourself and your situation and people around you is make the decision and pursue that change. And from my perspective, that's what you've done is Charlie Street, the restaurant, was the old mission. and now it's evolved to Charlie Street the product and selling an offering that product all over the world one door closed but the next door opened

and that next door that opened is probably going to bring you more fulfillment and joy and happiness and money and success and greatness and all the things but if you would have tried to keep hammering out that restaurant because of pride and ego for another five, 10, 15 years it probably would have broke you off to be a grumpy, unfulfilled, unhappy person. It's like this decision you made will probably have been one of the most pivotal decisions of your entire life. Dude, you absolutely hit the nail on the head.

I think you can relate to this. It's like drawing, you've only got so much energy and how much time you have, even for like your loved ones and your friends. As soon, like my ego was definitely a part of that. like I don't want to close this restaurant. I don't want to close it. I don't want to close it. And then more opportunities get coming with the product line.

And then I get called to do a podcast or like my series, my kitchen series is starting and take off. And all this stuff happened. And at once I'm just like, I got to do it. And part of me was like, what are people going to think? You know, Dan closed a restaurant. Why did it was not successful? Was he just too good to own a restaurant anymore?

Part of me was like definitely that. But I changed that mindset pretty quickly. And I may realize. I genuinely was like that you're right that was a moment in time where I wanted to build that and it created a platform for me to grow another product line and another brand and now I've been involved in other restaurants I didn't think were possible and just because I didn't think at the time or creatively like I come home now man and I've just got so much more energy because I'm not having given myself physically and emotionally towards something and and melanas says

that. My friends say it as well. And I don't know if it's like it was the timing of it all, but then we saw this stuff started to hit on socials as well. And even the product, the product has done extremely well in the past four months purely because the amount of time we're able to dedicate to hitting the right targets and understanding who our target mark is. So, you know, same for you, man. It's like you built a brand along with not a brick and mortar, but a business. And so, you know, that does sap your energy. If you can't put it, that's 50% of energy going to one towards the other.

But one of the coolest things is like seeing what you're doing. And then also seeing the people at, you know, the Austin Marathon and seeing you built that from what it was to now. Now you have a team taking control of it. That is like so inspirational to me. I can't wait for Charlie Street's products to be alongside Super Coffee and BPN at more events and things like that. too because that's that's that's what i can do that's my big impact it's what you've done it's what the

boys have done and that's why i see where life is going and before i couldn't and now i can the fear of judgment is what holds so many people back from making the decision yeah you know when i decided to step down from the CEO role the day we launched that i was thinking well what are people going to think sure what are people going to say are they going to know i'm still involved in the brand that I think that I'm trying to take a step back, but in reality I'm trying to take a step forward, and you get caught up in your own thoughts of assuming people are thinking certain things

when in reality they're not, and oftentimes when you think people will think that you're going to fall and fail, they see the greatness that's about to come because you just opened up so much mental, emotional capacity that you didn't have before. that's what's hard about building multiple things at once is you only have so much capacity. Yeah, dude.

And if you burn up all that capacity, there's no way you're showing up as your best self. Well, I mean, you've got Charlie now, man. And like, I'm going to put, I know that's your priority, like, you know, being an amazing father and a partner to Steph, but I want to know creatively. And I don't want this to be a loaded question, but how do you feel for your ability to create better YouTube videos or videos in general, even just like ideas for the brand. How much more time do you generally think you have

because of your ability to be more of a creator as opposed to a CEO? This past year, the last 12 months, I was creatively in a tough spot or my mind was just not operating at an effective level at all. I couldn't and didn't want to think creatively. So part of you starts thinking, oh shit, I've lost it. I've lost like my mojo.

I've lost my edge. And then you quickly realize, so I'm just overwhelmed at the moment. Like, I can't focus. And, you know, it wasn't overnight when I stepped down from the CEO role and Kat took charge. And I moved more into a creative role. It was not overnight. You know, it's only been a few weeks, almost a few months at this point. but every day I feel like my my creative capacity is opening up more and more and more.

I'm sure the team here can feel it and see it, but you just reach a point where you think you're Superman, you think you can do everything all day, all the time, and then you realize you can't anymore. And there has to be a change. Until you make it change, it doesn't get better. But now I feel like I'm regaining that edge again in terms of creativity, wanting to create.

When you start losing the desire to create, it's a scary place to be. And that's where I was getting to. But it's because I was overwhelmed. I was trying to do too much. I wasn't hyper-focused on that thing that I knew I could do

to move the needle for the brand and the business. So a follow-up question for that then is since then, have you seen what have your numbers done? Have you seen an increase in numbers or just a change in trend or rate? Yeah. Business is doing better.

Awesome. Business is operating at the highest level, whatever has. It's awesome. All things have improved. And it's come down like delegate and elevate. And we implemented EOS in the business past year. Yeah. I've delegated a lot of responsibilities,

elevated people to move into new roles and take larger responsibilities. So then I could operate. where I really want and need to operate to do what I do best. Because what I was doing was I was operating outside of my area of genius to try to just cover holes or weaknesses or positions that we didn't have filled at the moment. And that wasn't the place for me to be operating. But it's amazing the power in like the power you get, from delegating a task and seeing that person do that task without you being involved

is one of the most rewarding experiences ever. Whether it be you set the right brief, the right training plan, or you have the right individual that's doing that, it's so good. And also, it's tough for people like us with personal brands associated with a product that we started because you do feel a bit of the, like that is still your livelihood. it's one thing to like start a brand that your whole life is devoted to that brand. Nothing to do with your personal brand.

But your personal brand is by association, the reason why this brand started and is doing so well. That's another thing to also consider when you're delegating tasks. Like, do I really want this person? So, you know, it takes a lot to delegate a task. Takes a lot to delegate a task. It takes a lot to delegate. Delegate. It takes a lot to delegate.

Oh my God. You got it. It takes a lot to delegate. delegate a task, particularly when it's from a personal brand. Yeah, especially when you're so passionate about that, that thing. There's so much passion, so much passion behind a brand and business that you start, a product that you start, that it's hard to think that people will ever care as much about it as you do. But if you find the right people, they will.

Dude, I've been reading Elon Musk's book again and hearing him and the way that he talks, talks about like passion and I find it really interesting because he's like if if I's one of my greatest things I learned from him is like if someone comes to you with a problem not a solution like he's like I fire them if they don't come to me with a solution they don't have the passion to want to find out a reason not to be involved me but just alert me and so like I think that was it's so true like having someone who's got the passion has at least has the instinct and initiative to want to do better as opposed to putting more on someone like yourself makes things a lot better.

Well, Dan, I appreciate you, brother. You're honestly always a breath of fresh air. Thanks, dude. Honestly, you always come in with the energy and you're one person I've never seen down. I've never seen negative. And I've always seen optimistic. So I appreciate your brother. Thank you.

Appreciate you, Barry. That's freaking epic what you're doing, man. So chat to you on the team. And stay to be another episode of this podcast, dude. And we'll get you in the kitchen too. Thanks, man. That's wrap.