The Nick Bare Podcast - 012: Pro Bodybuilder Turned Hybrid Athlete - Sam Okunola

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Today I sit down with the incredible Sam Okunola, a hybrid athlete, world-champion bodybuilder, and Army veteran. We explore the contrasting dietary needs of runners and bodybuilders, delve into the intricacies of incorporating running into a strength training regimen, and uncover the secrets to optimizing performance and achieving the best of both worlds. Sam truly understands what it takes to balance running and lifting. This conversation will empower you to push boundaries and redefine what it means to be a hybrid athlete. Save 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio Follow for more:  IG: https://www.instagram.com/nickbarefitness/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@nickbarefitness Keep up with Sam here: IG: https://www.instagram.com/samokunola/ YT: https://youtube.com/@SAMOKFIT Topics:  (00:00) Intro (1:45) “One step at a time” (6:58) Starting running (13:43) Military running protocols (18:56) Running injuries (34:09) Bodybuilding career (55:43) Gaining lean muscle (1:00:09) Why genetics matter (1:07:12) Managing diet fatigue (1:14:11) Practical dieting strategies (1:23:01) Working out vs. training (1:28:27) Power of running (1:37:28) Runner vs. bodybuilder nutrition

Welcome to the Nick Bear podcast. I've spent the past decade as a CEO building an industry leading supplement brand. There's a story. There's a mission. Serving in the U.S. Army. First video in Korea. And creating a community of inspiring leaders. The mission isn't changing, but it's evolving.

This is it. I'm a different person now. Through powerful, unfiltered conversations. You have to be careful with entrepreneurship. You can get hurt. My mission is to help you unlock your full potential and create the life you desire. Camera's rolling and we're on. I'm your host, Nick Bear.

Enjoy the episode. Before jumping into this episode, I want to thank you for tuning in and spending your time with me. Every watch and listen truly does matter. Now, we've decided to not take on any sponsors for this podcast because we don't want to interrupt your listening experience. But if you do want to support me, you can head over to BPNSups.com for all of your performance, endurance, and wellness supplement needs. We offer a wide range of products from amazing tasting protein powders, effective pre-workouts, green superfoods, multivitamins, sleep support, and much more. I spent the last decade building this brand community and product offering, and I'm extremely

thankful that it has helped so many people. So if you are in need of a new supplement routine, head over to BPNSups.com and use code Nick Bear 10 to save 10% off your order. Now let's jump right into this episode. Today on the podcast, we have Sam Okanola, professional, natural bodybuilder, husband, father, fitness coach, Army veteran, and now hybrid athlete.

The resume just builds and builds. It's like your ERB in the anime. My packet. Yeah, you just put it on the back. You know, like people, when they leave in the military, they have their whole ERB plaster on the back of their windshield. It's like that. I never got to that level.

I never got to that level. But hey, part of everything, part of all the accolades, I should say. Well, I got a quote I want to kick off with that I heard you say, and I'd love to know what this means to you. Yeah. And that quote is the only way forward is one step at a time. What's the significance of that quote and meaning for you? I vividly remember exactly when that quote was.

And it's, so I was recently training for a marathon last year. I was going to do a marathon in October, but I had to pull out that because I had ITB issues. And my coach, Casey, a fellow BPN athlete, and I reach out to her. It's one of those things that after each week of running, you have, okay, 10 miles, 12 miles. And every mile, it feels like, it feels like 10 miles in. I'm like, man, another 16.2 miles. like how am I going to finish this? Like, it's just so daunting.

And, and I know, okay, after this, recover, do the next thing. And 15 miles came around, 15 miles, I mean, it broke me. I'm like, there's no way I'm doing this. I mean, I remember, like, finishing 10 miles. I remember when I went to my in Los House, they live in the backcountry road, this long, I mean, like, feels like a film set. Like, there was nothing else with just windmills. I'm like, this is great.

You know, 10 miles were great. five miles, I literally had like interval five miles. Like run, walk? Yes, just to finish it, just to say I finished it. I remember I called Casey. I'm like, man, this is this end it. This end it. Of course, it's like, no, just take the time.

Yes, it's fresh right now. Take the time, recover. Just show up the next time and just run and show up. Just do it. See how you feel. And we adjust. And cool. And lo and behold, that following week,

was probably the when I actually understand what a run is high I feel like. Because coming from 15 miles, about 10 miles and five miles of, I mean, intervaling, I mean, interviewing that part out. 18 miles literally was like the best run I've had, I mean, high. Negative splits on like the last four miles. I mean, you can't tell me anything. It's like one of the best feelings ever. On top of the world.

I mean, I'm fist bumping everybody on a trail. I'm like, man, let's go. And it just took me the time like, so. So if I quit, it at 15 miles or 10 miles, I would never have any experience that 18 mile high. So the best, shout out to my coach again, the best thing for me to do at the time is literally, literally one step at a time, one step at a time, one step at a time. Some runners like to look up. I'm just going to look down. I don't want to see where I'm going.

I just want to look down and just literally just watch my feet one step out of time. And that's what got me to the point of that 18 mile that I experienced that high. And if I would have quit, and a call case, I'm like, I don't know, man, this is hard. I don't think, I mean, it's just so big, like 15 miles. Like, I couldn't finish 15 miles, not to have been comprehended in 26.2. So I remember Dan and I put that up. Again, it's just, I mean, a lot of tasks just seem overwhelming because you would think a lot of things. But you literally simplify it down to just literally one step by the time, whatever that step is.

Just figure it out. Just take a step and figure out what that step is. take a step to figure it out. Whatever the outcome is, you figure it out. Because if you just stay in that position, like stagnant, and now take that step, you literally are going to be in that position without any sort of momentum moving forward. Yeah, when I think back to my first two marathons,

it was, you know, running for the first 15 to 16 miles, and at last 9 to 10 was a run-walk approach. and when I first started running the reason I love the quote comparison is the thief of joy is because I would see people who were running the entire marathon they were running strong across that finish line

like sub three I'm thinking that is impossible that is literally impossible and then I went out and ran my first marathon and there I am run walking that last 9 to 10 which when you realize that you are run walking 10 miles

I mean that hurts That's a lot. That's a lot. That's unconditioned running. We used to learn it the hard way. And you have to start somewhere. Yep. And that's why I love running.

That's why I love talking people through their transition and evolution of running because I've gone through it as well. In my last marathon, I ran 248. When you told me when I, if you were told me I would have told me I would have to run a 248 marathon when I ran a 415. I would say there's no way. Not the same person. Yep.

You know, I started my fitness journey. journey after the army or through the army with with the strength background strength and bodybuilding you've had a strength and bodybuilding background for an extended period of time and if you've earned and achieved a pro natural body building card through that journey why did you want to start running like what was the reason that you started introducing that into your training um you and i have a similar uh journey when it comes to running meaning you're in the military and i'll do we just having conversation with somebody today that military is not shaped or conditioned for you to get better at running. You got six miles. You got three miles. Half a fast going to get there.

Go, send it. That's it. You might get, you know, in groups or A, B, C, or whatever. But relatively speaking, it's not, oh, yeah, let's taper. Let's program this right. No, it's just full send. So as soon as I got out of the military, I'll leave it through my running issues. I'm like, nah, never again. I did the same thing. Never again. So the first thing I did is like, okay, I mean, met up a few of my high school buddies. I just went to, I mean, I want to start training. I want to strength train. And I just, I, in coming from somebody that played soccer in high school, I mean,

fitness level was, I mean, top notch. My two mile time in the military, I think, was like 11 something at the time. So it used to be sort of enjoyable, but when I got out, that was just the last thing. I want to. I don't want to rock march. I want to run. I, no, none of that. So fast forward to strength training.

Strength training was just like a different, like, you know, it was a hangout. It was a social hour, so to speak, with the group of guys that I went in high school with. We all chit-chat, you know, just have a good time. So strand training, that was there. Fast forward, bodybuilding, again, fall into the right crew of people that I went into bodybuilding at a time, trained for my first show, got my pro card, did a bunch of bodybuilding shows. Then I start having knee issues And that knee issue

So the knee issue essentially was Knee extension was great Obviously when you're running A lot of the extension takes place Knee flexion like squatting was like challenging If you know me, I love a good leg session Like I would take that any day over any body part Because it's challenging because most of people

probably will quit From training legs I think that makes me want it even more Most people opt not to train legs at all I will I'm the guy that travels on, you know, I know like back in when we used to go, I mean, exposes and you travel all day. Nobody wants to train legs. Like, no, I want to train legs. That's me. Granted, like, it was not, it was a body part I'm trying to improve on too. So I feel like, you know, I owe it to

myself, I want to improve. I need to make sure I keep that volume or keep that training intensity. But anyways, I couldn't run. And all of a sudden, I'm like, okay, what's the next hardest that I can do that? Can at least, like, simulate, you know, some sort of, you know, training legs hard. I'm like, oh, I guess running. Like, wait, okay, let's try running. Like, running doesn't hurt. So that was like the two weeks. That was what I was doing. Like, when I was supposed to train legs. I used to train legs. I was training legs twice a week. I was running. And then I know something. My wife and I's relationship is exactly the C2 of us. I'm like, I don't know this dynamic. He's a lifter. You're the runner. I'm like, we'll give it away.

We'll give it away, my size. But watching, and something I've always wanted to do was run with her or do some sort of race. And we're very competitive. I used to, I'm like, I can run easily. 5K, like, what, six minute pace? That's easy? No. I'm like 8.50. I'm, go all out, bunk.

And it's like, okay. Like she passes me as she laughs. I'm like, but I don't have it. Anyways, fast forward. I'm like, you know what? Now that I cannot train legs, maybe it's a time to actually focus on something that's easily as hard as training, you know, training for a half marathon.

So I went on the app, you know, as many apps out there, you can just grab. I'm like, cool, I jumped on it. I followed the app. I trained. I'm not sure. I mean, looking back now, there are things that would have changed, knowing what I know now. But again, I just, you don't know what you don't know. So sign up for that and did my first half marathon with her.

2000 and I believe 2020 was the first one that I did with her. And that's how I kind of caught the bug. And I slowed down a little bit from there. And the following year, I think got to a space where I just want to challenge myself to. And the conversation around that is just an internal conversation to like, seeing a guy like you, seeing a guy like me, like you are supposed to be the definition of fitness. Like, you should be able to go run a mile without gasping for breath. You should be able to run two miles.

Like that's the, you know, definition of fitness for me. And I felt like that was a gap in how I feel. Again, I'm getting older. And I got to the point also that. strength training was not really challenging for me it's fun for me like you you don't you don't have to force me to go work out running until this day is still hard for me i look at my shoes i'm like the running joke uh my wife uh is i tell i'm going to run uh seven o'clock like okay you mean eight like yeah you're right because i'll stall overstretch contemplate why are you doing this you do

this it's just i go through the pace then i pick up my shoes my shoes on run and like The first mile is always like the hardest mile. I'm like, body's trying to figure out, okay, what we're doing here. Then two miles and three miles later, you start falling to a groove. You settle in a little bit. And you start seeing the benefit of what running does compared to what strength training doesn't really do for me. And I still enjoy it. But in terms of the challenging aspect of things or the uncomfortable thing for me,

running does that for me, not strength training. I was actually just having this conversation with my wife last night. I'm now falling into this spot in my life where I like my run more than I like my strength training. And it's not that I don't love strength training anymore, but it's the way you say, like, it doesn't challenge me in the way that a run challenges me. I like strength training in the afternoon evening. I like running in the morning. Part of that is the choice. Like there's a hard choice of waking out, getting out of your bed, going for that morning.

run. That first mile always sucks. You're just shaking everything out and then you fall into this rhythm. But if I had to choose between one or the other now and I could only choose one, it would be that run. For me, I get more of a challenge out of it physically and mentally. I get more like solitude and mental clarity out of my run than I do strength training. But I do want to take it back a step before we go a little bit forward. Talking about running in the military. If there's one mission I have in my life before I die, it's helping the military learn how to run.

Yes. When I was in the Army, it's like you said, we would go out and we'd go balls to the wall. Full send. We never knew how far we were running because no one had a garment or GPS watch. We just went kind of based off of time. But we never improved.

Nope. And if I think back, because I was in the infantry, If I think back to, like, training and working out outside of PT hours, groups of guys would go to the gym, throw weights around, everyone wanted to get bigger and stronger. The only people that were really running outside of work, there were two groups of people. One, you were probably overweight and you had to run, or you're going to get, yeah, remedial PT, or you're about to get kicked down over the army. And two, you were a high achiever.

Yep. And you were, like, trying to show off. You have the in between. And everyone else was going to the gym. But I'm always mind boggled, at least like conventional army, conventional military, like put aside the seals, the Rangers, special operations. Conventional military is a shit show. It's a soup sandwich for running.

I mean, it's, I mean, no, again, I know. I think it's the mindset, the culture of like, no, I mean, got to break you off. You know, like that's, you know, the suffering aspect of running. And not really let's improve performance, right? Again, I remember like when a guy, somebody might just be, I was stationed in Korea, camp Red Cloud, and there's a place called Radar Hill. Radar Hill is almost like a right of passage when you come in. That's where they take you to break you off.

Who's new? You originally fall out. You fall out. You know, your squality takes you, you're going to radar hill. And you see when people coming back, like, oh, yeah, they got broke off. The breathing, the sweating. I mean, it's like nice, you know, in class, six mile incline. And it's almost like, you know, a pat on the back.

Like, yeah, we did. did that. But as far as improving performance, improving physical fitness, it's not, I don't think it's skewed around, let's break them off, but the more opportunity we get to break you off and not focus on maybe recovery, maybe slow runs, like zone two is actually what we need more of. That's how we'll build fitness instead of just, you know, going zone four, full on sand all the time. But I would say I think they are doing better. maybe another aspect, but not just so much about running, obviously, the new APFT and things like that. But no, I think it's just the culture of like, you know, full sand all the time, you know,

that's empty the tank, how fast can we run, how far our heart can we push, and that's the only way. So I think they're doing a good job because I think, again, obviously, with the new, you know, science coming out around fitness, that's one of the reasons why I think they change the APFT, like, okay, we need to make this more adaptable to what we actually do outside of the pushups and the run and the sit-ups. I think there's a lot of education to to kind of transfer into that space too. I even think about my running shoes when I was in the Army. I wore the same pair of running shoes

for all four years. Yeah. A6. Yeah. Not the PX. Yeah, I wore the A6 from the PX. And dude, by the time I left, like those things had holes in the souls.

And now I change out my shoes now every 250, 300 miles. and the way I can tell I need new shoes is if I started having these small, just like aches and pains in my ankles or my knees or my hips, I know I need to change my shoes out. I change my shoes out and instantly those little pains go away. No, I mean, it's funny. I think everybody had to send pair of shoes.

Like, it's like, I mean, I think it was like part of, of, they only had a few options to choose from, I think. But no, I vividly remember that. And again, I think when I threw my shoes off, when I got home from the Army, I mean, it was one, rightfully, I needed to run my way anyways. But no, I think, again, it's, it's, I think they're doing a job. They're doing a better job now. I'm far, I mean, I'm not really, uh, too invested in like how the mill, I know the new

PFT tests has changed, deadlifts and, and carries and things like that. But I think the run is still the same. He's got a two mile. You got a two miles. You got some drags and pulls in there. But I think, again, it's a new age. You can use the same tactics that you use it back, you know, back in, 20, 10, 15 years ago. you have to adapt to the new way of training.

Nothing to doing a better job other than that. I'm not too, again, I'm not too embedded in that area, but I'm positive there are things they put in place in terms of like, okay, how they train, our military readiness, so to speak. So that would be cool to see, you know, if I can get some sort of feedback on some value. I mean, what's the new approach now? Is it, hey, we're doing sergeant's time on Thursday

or doing like, you know, every day's a running day, or we mixing that up, or if we're running, okay, we are, there's a pacer that's going to control the pace is his own two pace or things like that but i think that will mean that will be something pretty awesome uh to see moving forward especially if you're trying to you know lead the future like of the army huge opportunity oh yeah a lot of low hanging fruit there so you really you started running because so you started running again post military because you were injured and running was a way for you keep training lower body yep outside of traditional strength training did you experience any injuries

from running when you started running because for me, that's one of the biggest questions that I get from a lot of people that follow my content is they start running and they experience planar fasciitis,

runners knee, hip issues, imbalances. I'm curious what you experience. I can speak to all the above because I've had all the above. And I think, again, you don't know what you don't know. And later on now,

that's when I'm learning. Like, okay, there's a lot of correlates. I mean, you agree to this too. there's a lot of correlation between running and strength training. Most injuries that people have when it comes to strength training outside of just a freakish accident, it's typically from poor load management and improper technique over time.

Poor load management, meaning you're just doing too much too soon. You're ramping up intensity too much as soon. Same thing goes to running. If you ramping a mileage too soon, it's an easy way for you to get injured. If you run it without a good running technique, especially for a bigger dude like me, it's easier way for you to get injured. I'm saying it's easier because, one, I plan a fasciitis, I had it.

It's almost like I remember my coach again said, listen, I mean, almost like panof fasciitis, it's a ride of passage to run it. I had a tail. Yeah, like once you have it, now you understand, okay, this is what I got to do to give your feet, your shoes, roll out your feet, you know, take care of that. And as soon as I start paying attention taking care of that, it kind of just went away, right? Strengthen your feet.

And that I was training for a marathon. I had to pull out after mile 18 because I had ITB center. You know why ITB is, ITB is essentially when the other part of your knee is hurting. And just like any injuries that you have, when it comes to fitness now, it goes to strength training or running. It's typically just a symptom of something else.

And again, there's a lot of hip tightness, which again, I found out from, you know, my running technique, things I'm spanned my cadence were too low for a guy my size. And essentially the more efficient you are at running, especially for a bigger dude, the better off you are. That means improving your running technique. So focusing on, again, allowed me the opportunity to have one,

have a correlation between strength training. Like, okay, if I want to get good at stretch training, this is what I did. Okay, this I have to use similar focus when it comes to running too. And I had a guy reached out to me, And I think I'd, when I talked about, I, you know, messed around and just, like, and I showed up for half marathon, like, three days notice. And I end up PR and it's like, well, I'm inspired.

And he wants to do this. And it's like, no, no, no. I'm not suggesting you should do what I did. Ideally speaking, yes, you can find out what your, you know, where your baseline is. That's good if you're going to challenge yourself. But he actually did it. You got a DM from him this morning and did it. I actually did pretty well.

I'm like, okay, now I know you, you fired up. Slow down. Like, reel it back in a little bit. Now, slowly you ramp up because, you. That's an easy way for you to get her because you're ramping up too fast too soon. So I had all the injuries. I had the ITB issues. I had the hip issues.

I had the knee issues. But again, a lot of my experience from the strength training, when I use that, when it comes to running, allowed me to sort of manage that a little bit better. I mean, I'm just getting back from like ITB just because, again, I understand, wow, okay. My running cadence and my running technique actually plays a lot in my staying injury free when I run. But at the same time, it's, you know, it's, it's fascinating to see the correlation between strength training, which again, I mean, you can draw a lot of parallels from the running and strength training at the same time. But no, the biggest advice I think I'll give

to anyone if you're trying to run. Yes, you know, start slow. I mean, you said it multiple times, slowly ramp up. Don't ramp up too fast too soon. Run your easy runs, easy. When you're hard runs hard, but it's, I know it's hard if you start running to, like, you know, it sucks. It's a warm mile, I just want to get it over the way. So the idea is I'm just going to send it and be done with it. Just like strength training when you go to the gym, I haven't trained for a while. I show up to the gym. I'm going to train six days a week.

And what's what happens? You're too sore. You don't like the feeling. Like, man, it sucks. I don't want to do it again. The same thing goes for running. Once, once a week, if you want to run, walk, run, walk and kind of slowly, you know, increase the time at which you're running and decrease the time that you would walk in,

is still progress to eventually get to, okay, I'm just running consistently without walking. Yeah, I don't want to say the right of passage, but it's going to happen. Oh, yeah. inevitable. When I first started running, I had shin splints, planar fasciitis, knee issues, tight hips, tight glutes. The first couple, maybe two to three years, honestly, off and on, I feel like there was always something that was hurting. Now I never get injured from running. Yeah.

My body biomechanics have kind of just fallen into this rhythm and adapted. If you look at my running form when I first started really running in 2017, 2018, compared to now, my body's just learned how to become more efficient while running. But I think that was a really good observation.

You said like, you know, your knee was hurt. So a lot of people instantly go to that knee and try to figure out, well, how do I foam roll the knee and how to I massage the knee? Well, if you follow it up, it's probably coming from a tight hip or tight glute. So I think that's like one of the benefits of working with a professional or a physical therapist. Yep. Where you think the issue might be and you try to solve, most cases, it's not.

It's not right there. It's not. It's not. My, again, I'm very fortunate to work with Dr. Aaron Orshik, Squire University. I mean, I text him like, hey, I broke me. It's like, what did you break this time? We're running. So, I mean, again, it's one of the, I mean, personally, one of the people that I've learned a lot

when it comes to like injury prevention or just, just, I mean, just analyze an injury and learning because your shoulder hurt doesn't mean it's your shoulder. Because your knee hurt, it's typically a symptom of something else. And I think one thing I learned, again, from somebody that had a lot of knee issue from strength training also. I realize, okay, it's not my knee. It's actually limited external rotation of the hip somewhere. Now, once I start working on that, guess what?

The knee went away. So oftentimes when I tell people when you've, like, Like when you notice something, try to look, okay, one is an opportunity for you to learn something new about your body. And oftentimes trying to find the connection to that joints. And those usually are the culprit of your injury, of the root cause of your injury. Then you can actually work on limiting that. So, no, I mean, it's, it's, and I think the side, I mean, one of the downside also is like we're trying to figure it out themselves. They're like, no, just, I mean, I know you have access to a lot of information, but oftentimes just get with a performance.

professional, let them diagnose whatever it's going on. You spend less time trying to figure it out yourself. You can actually devise an action plan and get back to doing what you want to do. Instead of, I'm guilty of this too. I'm like my YouTube search when I was like when I was learning like it literally ITB syndrome. Like it was like my top view videos was like was that. Like you know what? Maybe I should try to know somebody that knows more than me and it's an opportunity for me to learn. And that's one of the cool things about running too because I could easily have just like, man, I just can't do it. Oh, you know, I've just pushed my body.

It's my limit of what my body can do. But again, it's almost like a conversation. Like, I mean, what do you think? I mean, I knew it's not going to be easy. I knew this are going to be. This is why I want to get into. I want to do more running because I don't have any injuries, expose myself to a lot of injuries.

I've had injuries in the past trend training. But when you're doing something new, you're pushing your body to do something that's not used to. Inevitably, like you said, it's going to, you are going to, you know, expose you to, like, expose you to, exposed to cell to injuries, it just comes down to the way I think you have to look at it from a psychological standpoint. It's an opportunity to learn something near by your body, how your body work, understand

your body even more because it's going to add more tools to your toolbox. Do you think it's easier to get injured from running as opposed to strength training? Yes. Yes. And personally, I'll speak from a personal standpoint also just because, one, oftentimes I will also say maybe it depends on what you start with. first. So if you start with strength training first, a lot of movements are you doing are so isolated, not dynamic in any way. And one thing I notice when it comes to my injury is, as it isolates a lot of my single joint in movement that I'm barely not doing. I'm squatting. I mean, I'm not really focused on glued meat when I know it's like one of my weakest part. That's going to

cause a lot of other body parts to overcompensate, which eventually is going to lead to injury. So I think I think it depends on what you start with. So I think if you start with strength training first, you might potentially expose to a lot of injuries, again, because so dynamic in nature, there's a lot of unilateral movements that's occurring. You find a lot of weakness that you probably never really, you know, paid attention to because you focus on more of a strength training.

Then vice versa, if you start, you know, you're using those, like, you know, single dynamic movement, then you add strength training to prevent, you know, you from getting injured further down the line. So I'll definitely say it's in reverse. If you start strength training first, then you expose yourself to running. You potentially are going to expose yourself to getting hurt. But if you do it vice versa, I think it might be some of the best position to, because most

likely if you are strength training, if you run in and you strength training, you're probably strength training just to keep yourself strong to do that running that you want to do, as opposed to the other way around where you run in now and you just find yourself, okay, it's just something challenging something new you're trying to figure it out you're not necessarily doing it for the body composition uh reason it just doing for other reason outside of body composition and that will eventually obviously just tell you like hey body um i'm kind of weak here pay attention to me so yeah yeah yeah i found that strength training that supports running is one of the best ways to prevent injuries absolutely while running if i think back to all the times i've been injured while weight training

it's because i've been lazy i haven't warmed up properly yeah You know, I go in the gym. I know I have 45 minutes to knock on this workout. I skip the warm up. I jump right into a heavy set. Tweek my back. And then you're looking back when your life like, fuck.

Yep. Why did I skip that? Absolutely. No, I mean, again, I think I literally just put a post up on Instagram, talking about you'd never see a professional athlete, just put on a jersey, put on the pads, just run to the field and start playing the game. You don't see that ever.

So they spend enough time, hours, you know, yes, you're not a professional athlete, But if you care about your performance in the gym, you spend the time and making sure you, you know, primed and properly ready to do exactly what you love to do. I know it's not sexy, it's not fun to do. And again, it's a habit that you have to cultivate, especially if you're starting your fitness journey to make it a routine. So you won't be forced to make it a routine. And because you, you know, got hurt and you cannot do what you, you know, love to do. And again, I'm guilty of this too.

It got me, you know, to place why I got hurt. I'm like, okay, we need to stop paying attention to this little minor. not so sexy detail that you make sure you have to do just to make sure you can perform your best. So, but again, you know, that's a huge lesson that you learn. Unfortunately, after, you know, the deed is already done. So my job as a coach also is to make sure, you know, I'm trying to, all content creator is trying to like, yes, I understand. There's so many things out there and warming up properly.

It gets so confusing. I think if we can just pick, let's say, one or two things. They can add dynamically to your routine. it's better than doing nothing at all. Yeah, I have found that one of the best ways to mitigate risk of injury while running. It's like you said, it's slowly ramp up running volume. So a good rule of thumb for a lot of people is don't increase running mileage more than 10% week over week. And that's like a really good just baseline starting point.

Because what happens is you ramp up that training volume too fast. I mean, you got to think with weight training, you're just, doing maybe 10 repetitions at a time, you're taking a rest, you're resetting, you're back into that set fresh with running, the stimulus might, I mean, there's so many more repetitions. Your feet are hitting the ground so many more times in 15, 30, 45, 60 minutes, and it increases that risk of overuse injury and any sort of inefficiency is going to be exposed. I've also found that by slowly increasing running volume, it allows you.

your body to just fall into efficiencies. So a lot of people want to go into analyze their running form and then try to fix things and anyone who's tried to be self aware of themselves running and fixing their running while they're running,

it's so much harder than like you would think and it is. And it feels awkward and uncomfortable and then what you find is you know, now you're working on this one part of your form and you're neglecting Another part.

It's a full-time job on itself. But again, it's one of those things like it's not sexy. It's something you have to do and try your best to make it as natural as possible. And I mean, one thing I mean, again, my pogo stick or, you know, or learning out of pull instead of just like hills striking all the time. Again, it's not natural for me because, I mean, I'm doing the natural way and that's what got me like, you know, to the place where I, you know, I got hurt. But again, the more obviously repetitiveness, making sure it's a staple in the way I want to treat because I want to keep mind it for a while. I would love to charge myself and not have my limiting factor be injury, which again, I understand

is inevitable because the farther you push yourself or expose yourself and tell you about to do the things that it doesn't really want to do or naturally just want to do, you are potentially exposing yourself. And that's something I've understand. I mean, I have to live with and I welcome. But at least I want to make sure I'm putting myself in a position to, you know, not have that happen. It's a task.

Again, it's not the sexiest part. Everybody just want to, you know, I just want to go run. I just want to, I just want to go lift. Like, yeah, when we were younger, you probably can get away with that too because you probably recover a little bit better. The older you get, the more time you get underneath that, the more bad habit you probably cultivate. But if you cultivate those habits right now, you can have that.

It's a routine at this point. You don't even think about it. It's just the part of your routine that you just do. And that puts you in a place where you to show up, have a good time in training, not worry about stress. Because, I mean, it's psychologically draining to just show up to the gym on a train or to show up running. I'm like, ah, not again. It's demoralizing.

So, we set a position to one, two, one, make that, it's a habit then. It's not sexy. It's not fun. We all just want to, like, you know, hop out of the car. You can just, you know, hit the road and go running. Well, we all can do that. Most people can do that, at least. So for the majority of people like me, need to, like, make it, okay, I'm not going to cheat myself.

I'm not going to skip a beat because I know. exactly what that's going to lead me to. So now we know running is a big part of your life now or is becoming a bigger part of your life. Yeah. But I want to go back a little bit and talk about your competitive bodybuilding career and you achieving a pro natural card. When was you started competing in bodybuilding?

Because I would assume years before you actually started competing, you were training with the philosophies and intent of putting on size and strength. But when did you actually decide you wanted to start competing and why? So the journey started back in college. Again, just like you mentioned earlier, I showed up to the gym, workout. I think my sorry major at the time was actually doing a show like in career. And he was like, hey, you want to compete? I'm like, oh, like, why?

I don't want to be in tidies and speedos. I call it speedos. Now I know it's very, you don't, it's not speedos. Posing trunk. It's posing trunk. Let's be clear about that. I'm like, no, that's not for me. I just want to, you know, train and lift weight.

And I got out, I went to scroll into college. And I really remember, again, I think I was the community of the people that I trained with or worked out with, everybody was just, I mean, it's a social gathering. It's, you know, at the rec center, everybody was just working out. And my KMP teacher, kinesiology teacher was like, it's a huge pilot to do. Strong is like, hey, you ever thought about, you know, competing because you like, you know, pretty decent physique? I mean, looking back, I'm like, sure, I guess.

I mean, one-190, soaking white, I guess. And it's like, I'm like, again, the, like, the, like, speedos, no, I'm not going to do that. Somehow, again, the challenge day, again, it wasn't running, but I was looking for some different challenge. Like, oh, what the hell? I mean, back in college kid, I'm like, I mean, if I do it, I guess I would look good for spring break.

At least I would get something out of it. Is this post-military? Post-military. Okay. Yeah, and back in college, and there was a show called Greek physique. Do not look up Greek physique. Simon O'Konnell, Greek physique. I cringe in a time I watch that video.

We'll start somewhere. One of my friends wouldn't make fun of me. He's like, oh, bro. I don't know, man. What were you doing there? Was it like a college? Oh, a college show. It's a fundraiser, like show. Posing was atrocious. I mean, my sidechairs was gnarly.

I'm so a sideband, up of Abu-A-Wazoo. Anyways, I did that, and I won the show. I think I did like an eight-week prep or something like that. Chicken and broccoli and peas. That was my main tilapia, my main hated fish, tilapia, never again. Were you tracking nutrition or were you on like a meal plan? Meal plan. I didn't.

I'd have no, I mean, I'd have no. I mean, that flexibility died in, what was that? No. Like, I remember my Picking Protocol. It was, I mean, I really remember what the Picking Protocol was. It was like frozen mango something to improve potassium. I'm like, sure. So I'll do that.

And that's what I did. But again, I think I was lean enough and just goes back to the concept of everybody can be starved. And you, you know, you look good on stage, but I was good enough to win the show. And I think at the time, I mean, coming from the military where running was not a thin. And I kind of want to go back to just, you know, strength and I'm like, this is kind of fun. This is a new challenge for me. This is fun. You mean I can dedicate X amount of time.

I can, you know, want to quote unquote bulk or shred. You know, I can focus that effort on this and I can get this result. Like, I sign me up. And that's how it sort of kind of took off. And luckily for me at the time, I went to Northern Illinois University. It was a local show, OCB show. At the time, I think Leighton competed used to, I remember, I think the show was the show. The first time I competed in that show, Lane, Lidon was a guest opposed for that show.

And I remember I, my Ryan Doris. Oh, Ryan Doris. Ryan Doris, that, so Ryan Doris actually coached me for the first, like, sanctioned show that I did. Natty Pro. Natty Pro himself. Now turn a Pilates instructor. And he coached me throughout the show. Again, he's more knowledgeable at the time.

You know, saw I learning flicks who died and my peeking protocols and things like that. And at the time, I was not really like, it's not something I didn't have like this, like, five, six. six year or desire to turn pro. It was just something I did just because it was challenging. I can dedicate X amount of time to mass X amount of time to prep. And this is the result. Wherever the result is, I'll live with it, adjust. And again, it's that improvement that was essentially just chasing after.

And I won my first pro show. Like, I got my pro card on my first show. And I'm like, oh, okay. I think there might be something here. And I took a, you know, I didn't want. want to do, I mean, looking at what I did, so I seen Lane Norton at a time, like, it's massive. Like, I can, as an amateur at Trump pro, there is no way I'm going to stand to that guy and be remotely, like, close to being competitive. So I took a year and a half off, did my first pro show.

I got third in, like, a stacked lineup. I mean, it was, I mean, the Donovan Strong. So if you are, like, you know, in a bodybuilding, natural bodybuilding in the realm, you know Donovan Strong is massive, dude. Got second. The fact that I got second to him was like, whoa. And two, three weeks after that, I did another show called the IPA, IFPA, which one of the, arguably at the time, one of the best natural body business shows at a time, competed for that show. I got second. So it's an improvement from third.

So that alone, I'm like, okay, all right, I think we got a good pace here. And I thought I should have won that show, but I didn't win. But again, it's one of those things. I think at that show particularly, that's why I read, one thing that happened to that, second show that gave me this, the way I've been, it's life kind of moves. I mean, I mean, it's the parallel between concerts pre-up or fitness into life at the same time. It's like, looking at things from an intrinsic place. I did, I lost the show not because you didn't like what I look like. Or I lost the show because, you know, apples and oranges, right? But I'm like,

okay, it's not, I didn't lose the show because of you or that. It's because, you know, me. Like, okay, what can I do to make myself better? Instead of like, man, they just didn't like me that day. Or, man, I got robbed. Like, it was never my. And again, sure, I thought I could have won the show, but I think using that sort of mindset allows me to put the ball in my court.

Like, I have that control. Instead of me saying, oh, you didn't give me the place that I thought I deserved. Like, no, I am going to fix this. I am going to work on whatever improvement. Even though, looking back, I know I should have won that show, but I refuse to look at it from now because, again, I want that control to be something

I can act on as opposed to like, I cannot control what you do or how you put that place in it. So I think, again, that's one thing I learned at the beginning of my bodybuilding career, and I carry that. And I've been using that mantra since, I think done over like 20 shows, one over 16, a golden wall title. And here we are. I mean, that's why I like about ownership, extreme ownership. I've talked about this before, but you'll see people, whether it's a bodybuilding show or it's a half marathon, full marathon, ultra. There's always like the post race or the post show recap.

And whenever I see these posts go up and it first starts off with, this is why I didn't get the time or the place that I wanted. It was windy. I started cramping right away. My nutrition strategy fell off. The judges didn't like me. I just own it. just own the result and the outcome, learn from it and grow through that. I think, I mean, it's, I wish I could mean, I'll try to package it up for people to understand

outside of the spectrum of just bodybuilding. A lot of times when you're giving your power away by putting the blame on somebody else, if you analyze it, if somebody can give you like for, I mean, like for a fact, it's not your fault. But still, if you own that good, all. bad, it does something to give you the control, to give you actionable items right away, okay, this X, Y, Z, X, Y, Z, Y, and Z. And I guarantee because you did that, you are going to be better for it. Because you spend less time focusing on or being that, you know, a little, you know, pity box

and like, no, that's, therefore, it's a wind. You can't control the wind. It's rain. You can't control that. But what can you control? You can control literally. It's one step at a time. Okay, what can I do better to improve that performance?

is it a psychological thing that I need to work on? Is it, you know, my approach that I need to work on and not letting other external factors be the dictator of your progress? Like, you own everything. The good, the bad. You own everything because that puts the ball in your control. You can fix that. You can design a plan of action that you want to move forward with

and you spend less time in that whole of, you know, blaming. No, I just didn't get that promotion because X, Y, and Z was just, you know, favoritism. them. I didn't do well because the judges don't like that look better. Possibly, if they do as a subjective sport, you can control that. But what you can control really is going to determine how better you're going to be the next time around, whatever that next goal is or the next job you're trying to, you know, chase after.

So extreme ownership, I mean, that's one of the things that I learned, you know, initially from bodybuilding. And again, that's carried on to everything I do like in my life. Like, no, I'm just like, yeah, yep, I'm going to do better. Like that's it. Like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to give, I, it's like you give, you give the power to something that you literally powerless, you know, over. The power is within me. And I think if you literally take the time to just sit back and realize like, okay, I've been given too much power to these external factors that literally I have no control over. What I can control is owning it. Either it's true or not, but I'm just going to own it, the good and a bad, all me. And I'm going to put an action moving forward. Yeah, focusing on the variables that you can control. Yep. So you said you took a year and a half off after those first couple shows.

Yeah. What were you focusing on during that year and a half? Did you do a dirty bulk? Do you put on a lot of weight? Do you try to put on size? Oh, yeah. I mean, again, I definitely did dirty bulk. I was bragging about how big I was.

I was like 245, bro, all me. I mean, I'm creeping up there. What were you on stage for those first couple shows? 201. So you gained like 45 pounds. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, my structure, Doris, we were tested.

Our structure, Doris and I went to Northern Illinois College of Business. And literally, every time we had classes, three, four classes. After each class, we go to this joint in Northern Illinois called Peter Peets, three double chickens, I mean, at least twice a day. On the Saturdays, we go to a China buffet, and we just like max out for like two hours. for like two hours. Now, we know what I know now. I'm glad I did it that way.

Because actually looking back, I mean, that was stronger as I ever felt. That my performance was through the roof. Would I do the same thing now? No, I will have a little more structure to it. But again, I think which circles back to the mindset of like, I think the culture now that are focused on like, you know, body composition, when it improved body composition, again caught up in, you know, I want to be maintaining or I want to be shredded.

If you truly want to improve your physique, you need to be spending more time in an environment that's going to allow you to do just that. And that's in a mass in the phase. Yes, you're not going to get sloppy. You can do it more structured way compared to what, I mean, what people used to do like myself back in the day. Now you know more information now.

You can do a structure way that you don't have to go full send. But you want to spend more time in an environment that's going to allow you to build that literature mass. And I put something on Instagram the other day too, asking, a poll asking, which one is harder to do? To lose fat or to gain lead to your mass? To gain lean to your mass. Because the mechanisms that's required for you to gain lean to your mass,

it's more than the mechanisms that's required for you to lose fat. Outside of being a caloric deficit, I will make an argument that somebody can pick a random program, train relatively close to failure, not being on a structured training program, and still see a relatively good result in the fat loss process. But when trying to gain lean to Schumass, you need to be in a global surplus. You need to ideally be in a good training program. Recovery needs to be on point. I mean, genetics needs to be on point.

I mean, you need to have the genetics for it. And maybe, even maybe, you might actually see some result, right? So that's why I encourage all the clients, all younger. I mean, people that are working, like, spend less time trying to chase after the shreds and focus on gym performance. And gym performance, by focusing in gym performance, allows you to folks in focus on, okay, if I want to perform well in the gym, I'm gonna make sure my nutrition is on point, my recovery's on point, not, you know,

main gaining, teetering, like on the edge of, I wanna get shredded, I wanna, I wanna mass, like, no. And the main gaining argument is, if I give you, okay, you wanna go under miles, I give you an option of Vespa or a Bugatti, you're wrong. You choose a Bugatti because it gets there faster. And I'll be the most, you know, energy efficient,

but Vespa gets you there slower, but Bugatti gets you there faster. Bugatti is a version of massing. I mean, you want to be able to be able to be able to becky you want to put yourself in a position that's going to allow you to do just that and not sabotage yourself. And one of those, one of the cool things about again, going back to that in between times, looking back now, I'm like, man, I'm glad I did that. And I understand how the, you know, the narrative now is people get caught up in like the shreds because you see social media,

you just like an attach to that. But if you truly want to, especially younger lifters too, like you, I mean, the older you got, the older you are in this, in this fitness space, the less of an opportunity you have to get a need to smash because it slows down. So this is the prime time for you to actually invest in that not so, you know, shredded face or actually invest a lot of time in bulk it and training and gym performance. But in between that time, all me, bro, 245, bulk, full sand. What a training, though, I mean, if I look back now, just looking back to transition from what I, the last show that I did compared to when I actually hop back on stage.

I was back on stage like 201 from like 192-ish, 195 when I competed from the first show, my last show, and visibly you can see too. And I was not chasing after doing multiple shows back to back. I'm like, no, I need time to train, enjoy training, get stronger gym, focus on performance, focus on eating good. And then we'll see what we're working with when we strip the fat down. I would say we grew up in one of the best times for fitness. Absolutely.

If I think about when I first started really getting into it, 2008, 2009 is when I really started getting into fitness and bodybuilding and strength training. And it's before I was introduced to flexible dieting or if it fits your macros. And I was just going to the gym, eating in a Chloricler Plus and just like pack you on size and strength. I didn't care about abs. I just wanted to get stronger and bigger. And then when I was in college, that's when like YouTube fitness. fitness started and you know Eric Holmes and Alberto Nunez and Matt Ogist are talking about flexible dieting and tracking macros.

So you start learning about tracking your food and using My Fitness pal and changing your body composition. Yep. Those first couple of years of training from like 2008 until probably 2000 and, you know, 16, 17 for me when I got, before I got in the Army, I was just packed on size. Eat lift, eat lift, eat lift. Running at that point was, that was getting in my way of putting on sides. Yeah, because it's losing so much.

No, I mean, I tell people all this time, I'm like, man, I don't know if I would have improved now in this current climate. Again, because obviously social media, everything's like, you know, the more aesthetic you are, the more following you probably get. And people are chasing after the shreds and things like that. And I kind of, I feel for the, you know, for the current, like, you know, generation people trying to get into the fitness because they're seeing that or to see maybe like guys who've been doing it for years, like, you know, being a leaner now. I try to maybe for marketing to, you know, purposes because it works well into your, you know, whatever you sell to the masses. But you probably spend a decent amount of time before you got here, like the older you get now, you spend that time just balking, massing, the cutting, balking, you're doing the reverse. because again, it was not, you know, the mainstream thing to do at a time. And again, like, getting back to, you know, whatever.

And everybody's recording content now at the gym. I mean, there was no recording content in the gym. Just show up. We just train. I remember, like, training at the time was just like it was a hangout. Like, I remember, like, the rectangle in the college, like, a bunch of dudes just working out. It was the best. It was, like, it was, like, no cameras, no nothing.

Adores, I was recording a couple of content on YouTube at a time, just, like, document its content spread. But, like, it wasn't, like, camera in your face. Or let me get this hangu. let me get this thing. No, it was, it was amazing. I mean, it was a social hour without the camera. I mean, it's a social hour now, but it's like everybody's sharing each other on. I mean, it's, I go back to videos now and like, man, that was, those were my pivotal, like, times that I can definitely say, oh, I made the most impoverimped gym, strength-wise, lean tissue mask gain. And I didn't care about shreds. I didn't care about a six-pack. I just want to lift my buddies and go eat afterward. That's all I cared about.

and after school. But no, it's, I mean, it's very, very challenging. So when I try to post-content, I'm like, listen, the view that you're seeing out there that are shredded right now, that's not ideally the best way for you to do it. I'm guaranteed they've been doing it for a while. And for a while, meaning the error when, like, you know, there's no incentive to be, you know, shredded, so to speak. I'd spend the time just getting jacked and lifting heavy weight. And, and now it's like, okay, everybody's like, you know, chasing after the stress because shreds sell, It asks them all to follow in. And then you realize for younger guys, man, I've spent like valuable, like time, like my, you know, my newbie gains like that when I should be spending that in an environment that's going to allow me to actually be, you know, look back 10 years.

Like, man, poo, man, I capitalized on that time. And you didn't waste it because you're trying to chase shreds. The shred is always going to be there. You can get shredded. But the lintoshed mask, man, that is the work there. So, I mean, no, it's you. I mean, kudos everybody trying out there. I know it's hard.

A, I'm glad I'm not in that position. I'm glad to have the error that I started my fitness journey in because it's very pivotal to like look back and I'm like, okay, well, I think I did it right way. So when I'm posting content now, I have clients, I'm like, listen, I know, it gets hard. Like I'm the courage that I push clients like, no. If you don't have any sort of biofeedback that's telling us, okay, we should pull back. It's not for mini cut, meaning recovery. It's kind of like, you know, tanking a little bit, you know, intro workout, you know,

conditioning is starting to impact a little bit. Eating is becoming a chore and things like that. Those are the indication, okay, now it's a mini cut. And essentially the mini cut is just an opportunity for us to get back to a good place to keep massing from, not because we're chasing the shreds. With mini cut in to get back to massing, not because we're chasing the shreds. And when they look back, I'm like, man, I'm glad we did that because two, three years for now, like, look back, I'm like, that was the most amount of gains that I've made.

And of course, you're chasing that. Yes, you're still growing, but just not at the rate that you're. you were when you first started. Yeah, I mean, I remember looking back and I didn't care about having abs. I cared about, like, were my sleeves being filled out by my arms? Yep. And, like, it was my chest poking through my shirt, essentially. Doris and I, I tell this a real time, Doris and I literally from one summer,

because the same in summer school, had a mess cycle called Operation Fit No Genes. Like, literally, that was the girl. Again, I mean, so the, the company, I mean, The combination of Doris and I was, I mean, masturbated in heaven. He's got massive legs coming from track. My legs is not that great. I got a big upper body. So it's like, okay, got big upper body, you got big body, got big legs.

I want what you want. You want to try what I want. Let's collab and work this together. His legs are still absolutely massive. It's like they've doubled in size. It's not. I bet it doesn't ever trained as much as you used to. Like, again, genetically gifted by the same time, he tram me.

It is strong. I remember that back in the day, I mean, seeing him do like 500 pounds for rep. It was like, but now it's like every, that's like, a casual rep for somebody in the gym. Shout out Russell. And I saw, I mean, we had the Operation Fit No Genes and the goal literally

was we were running Lane's Power Appetopathy Adaptive, the Fat Program. The Fat Program. I remember the Fat Program. We were running that for a while and I remember vividly like yesterday. I was bartending in college. I leaned over to grab a bottle and I ripped my pants. I was so excited.

I'm like, yo, it happened. Call him and I said, what happened? I ripped my pants. It was like, let's go. It was like the most excited out of it. And it's like the same pants I've worn and like it's, you couldn't tell me anything. Like that alone, that was what we sought out for in the gym.

And looking back now, again, it's such a pivotal, like, time in my fitness journey that, you know, that that still, like things I still learn as to use till today is just, you know, focusing on performance in the gym. Outside of that, nothing that's going to add to my improvement. I know, yes, I'm not going to be improving at the skill as I was back then, but I'm glad I put that time in. But that doesn't mean the job is done. I still work to at least still improve body composition. There's a lot to unpack. You know, first off, you mentioned how hard it is to build lean tissue.

And I do want to talk about that. Because a lot of people look at me as a runner or a hybrid athlete. and they think, because they haven't done their research, or they don't know how long I've been training, they assume that I've put on this size while running 60 to 100 mile weeks. And as we kind of preluded to, I spent the first six, seven, eight years of my fitness journey,

just putting on lean tissue and not running, avoiding running as much as possible. Then when I started running, I was still able to hold a lot of that lean tissue. I obviously lost some, but I had that foundation built. What is your response to people who, you know, they want to start going to the gym? And they're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to try to put on 10 pounds of muscle this summer. Like how hard is it actually to gain lean tissue?

And what is a realistic goal? Outside of newbie gains, even newbie gains, like it's very, very, I mean, it's rare for you to put 10 pounds on in a year. Over time, let's say if you start training three, four years, you can look back saying, you know, look at data if you are encouraged enough to like, okay, let me get some body compensation test done and see what my lean tissue mask when I first started and then compare to me two, three, four years later. If you're going to put on 10 pounds in a year, that's delusional. And newbie gains, newbie gains are those when you first start strength training,

resistance training. Yep. You're going to see gains pretty quickly, but then those are going to kind of taper off. They tip her off. That's why, again, I alluded to earlier, those are the prime time that you want to focus on. So it's all on me. Anybody listening, like, if you're just starting your fitness journey, this might be, you know, a little, a little, a little nudge to, like, focus on gym performance, focus on eating, put mass in instead of chasing the shreds. Again, I think people, realistic, people don't know what's realistic, right?

Or you don't understand what body fat percentage look like. can I see somebody, I'm like, oh, that's like 12% body fat. Oh, you don't even know that. It might look like 10. You don't even know what 10 pounds look like. So one, you're trying to attach this arbitrary like number to like, oh, you get about 10 pounds of muscle. I'm like, you just assume it you get 10 pounds of muscle. So people can't take that narrative.

Wrong with it. And don't, and never look back. So yes, you are physically going to see some changes in you both to put that, you know, emphasis on a specific number. That's not true. One. And two is, again, like the reality of. what's achievable is very skewed for a lot of people. People will see you. Like, oh my God,

like there's no way like that can be that big. I'm like, but yes, without any sort of understanding your genetics or your background or what they see what they see now and deemed that impossible because whatever X, Y, Z already said, like it's not possible. So for you to go again, that's already skewed and you think it's 10 pounds of muscle gain is not realistic. It could be. But at the same time, unless you put somebody in the lab, you take like, you know, critical measurements and that you can track that. But I think one, don't focus too much on 10 pounds of muscle. Body composition would change, especially if you're newbie.

Put yourself in a body, put yourself in a mass in the face, making sure you training. Your strand progression in the gym is showing you progressing. Inevitably speaking, if you attach those two together, those will lead to a significant amount of gains, especially on the beginning phases of your fitness journey. Of course, it's going to scale up as you get older. The rate of gain will slow down. It's not impossible. I've seen some pretty dramatic transformation naturally from newbie, like two, three year transformation.

I'm like, whoa, like that was impressive. And that's because fortunately, maybe they were just fortunate to fall into the right hands, the right coach. They can kind of guide them through the right, you know, doing it the right way. As opposed to not focus on, you know, too much on, you know, on the shreds and focus on actually gym performance and building lint tissue mass. So is it, is it impossible? No, but oftentimes it's not true. But again, it's down to the new beginnings when you first started.

That's the most amount of time you are going to grain the most amount of lean tissue mass. And that's where you want to literally throw all your eggs in that basket and focus on because later on the line, that's going to slow down. And you're all going to look back like, man, I'm glad I did not miss out on that opportunity. There was a gentleman that sent me a message a few weeks ago. And he said, hey, man, I train the exact same way you train. I eat the exact same way you eat, but I don't look like you. I think there's two things that a lot of people are neglecting when they make that observation or comment. One, it's the time in which I've been training consistently.

You know, it's been over a decade now. And genetics do play a large role in someone's ability to build a physique. Oh, man. And can you dive into that a little bit? Oh, my God. I feel like I've had the conversation, this conversation like multiple times, like in the last week. One, I have a saying, like if you, I don't get non-nattie called out a few times. And the joke was, I'm pissed about that because what do you mean?

Like, I don't look non-nattie. I want to look non-nattie because the badge of honor for me. It doesn't bug me at all. It doesn't affect me at all. And I think genetics play a massive role, a massive role. I mean, look at your dad. look at your brother. You guys are just thick. You know, you pack on muscle easily. And you all of a sudden just negate that because, no, it's just impossible. And I was watching the Jorogun

podcast and Kamar Usman was on it and it was talking about, because the guy's agitation of like, you know, using PEDs and things like that. And it made a comment that only a Nigerian-born dude would understand. I'm Nigerian. And it was like, do you know how many Kamauro U.S. Usmans and Francis Agano just walking around Nigeria right now. So you, that literally, like, they don't have any idea of what PDs are. Like, genetics play a massive role in Sima, Obie, Ross. Like, genetic, those are, look at the background and lineage. Nigerians.

So what I'm trying to say is your genetic is your genetic. You cannot change that. So you have to put down to your account. You have to put it down to your account. You have to build years of training. Because you're training like Nick Bear, it doesn't mean you're going to look like Nick Bear. Because your genetics, your time of training, it's not the same. It's not, and you should be proud of that.

I feel like, you know, if you actually take, that should not be discouraging thing for you. You know, the conversation I had is, okay, so what if I tell you, okay, you can gain, people, most of the questions that I get in the game is like, people want, like, you know, like, definitive, like answer. Like, give me the timeline. If I train for three years, if I do this, if I do that, I might do that. am I going to get here? I'm like, no. I don't know if you're going to get there or not.

So let's say if I have a magic A ball, and I'm like, okay, look, I'm like, on the September 22 in 2020, you have reached your full genetic potential. If you know that information, then what? You're going to stop when you get there? Oh, job is done. Pack it up, boys.

Let's go home. No, you're going to keep pushing that. So understand your limitation, but use that. And I think again, back to the point of you made earlier, far as, you know, coming up in a different era, blindfold ignorance is a beautiful thing. Like, I was the guy looking at a muscular development,

developing magazine, looking at J.Colors and Dexie Jackson's, like, meal plan and extrins training them, like, that's what I got it to do to look like that. I mean, without the notion of like PEDs or anything like that, I was so, like, naive to think that if I eat the same meals, a lot of meals, by the way, which naturally puts you in a caloric surplus and train like that, relatively maybe over training sometimes, but still allowed me to, I mean,

train close to failure most of the time. So those two alone and genetics, of course, allowed me to put myself in a position that's favorable for me to look back on there. I'm like, wow, I did spend that time wisely. But it's easy for me to negate that and all of a sudden just, oh, yeah, nope, that's impossible. I mean, the qualification of what's Natty

or not nowadays is just, it's, it's funny. I was talking to Maddoos about this the other day. And again, back to the Kamarer was from an analogy, there's picture like a bunch of rich people sitting together around the table and looking at people that are not rich, like, only if you knew what we know. Like, that's how I, that's how I look at, like, only if you know what I know, meaning you know what, yes, I have genetic potential, but imagine if you don't focus on that, if you know, literally all you need to focus on is your training, your nutrition, making sure it's on point. You might look back 10 years from now and you'd be shocked

and amazed of what you've literally accomplished in that 10 years without focusing on finding that limitation for yourself just to justify the reason why you're not X, Y, and Z. That's what I think, you know, ignorance is bliss. Oh, beautiful. Looking back to when we first started training, there's a lot of bro science out there. But a lot of that bro science helped me achieve tremendous results. Absolutely. Because it was simplified.

Where there's so much information out now that can overcomple. the decisions you try to make. Yeah, it's a paralysis by analysis. You know, if we, if I simplify the way I approached training and nutrition back in the day, eat a lot of food, focus on protein, train really hard. Those three things helped me achieve tremendous results. Absolutely. Now, over time, I've learned how to refine and adjust and, you know, optimize certain

aspects of my training, nutrition, in life. But, like, those are some of the best days. I mean, it's, it's, it's, I mean, a, it's, I mean, a paralysis analysis is real. I'm just liking anything that you want to do in life. And again, it's one of the, the best and, uh, the positive negatives of having access to information. Human beings historically, we don't do well with, uh, choices. The more choices we have, the more paralyzed we get. So, uh, but I think the challenge for most people now is, you know, you have access to information. Uh, you collect those data, you collect those information, but you're missing the key point. You're not being a practitioner. You figure out what worked, keep that, whatever then work, throw that away, and gather

that. So I think, again, I keep going back to the era of like, yes, the Muscoville Development magazine, we were limited in the information that we have. It was basic. It was straight to the point. But now, again, you get to the point of, like, okay, there are still people saying this, but do that, but do this. But I think if you simplify the approach for yourself, keep it in the simplest form, you will see resolve. But unfortunately, the simplest form is not sexy. It's not, it's not, it's not, it's not packaged in, you know, this beautiful, you know, bow, like in, in fancy words. I'm like, the more complicated it is, the more interest, I mean, interest in the subject matter sounds like, which again, I mean, it's, again, I hate to be the

the old, the yellow and the cloud, like, oh my God, like, and how things have changed. But I think if you just find yourself to, you know, okay, I'm going to seek the information, whatever information I find, I'm going to, quick analysis, okay, I'm going to take this and just supply that and see if it works. So what's not sexy leaning into that is spending years in a caloric surplus packing on size and strength. Nope. A lot of people probably listen to this podcast are going to say I understand what I have to do but I don't want to do that. I want to get lean. So I do want to get some practical information especially for you as a coach. Yeah. At the time we're recording this, it's May we're going into the summer. Yeah. I just got done with my

bodybuilding prep towards the end of that prep I was messaging you frequently asking questions and I started sucking towards end of that prep and one of the things that you said is you need to focus on protocols and strategies for fatigue management I would love to talk about as people go into a diet you're trying to get lean whether it's competition lean or beach lean there's probably going to be some fatigue that is associated with a cloric deficit in training. What are the things that you do with clients, with athletes to help manage fatigue? So again, I've been on this kick lately, like less is more. Less is more just begin, I mean, just to draw back into the conversation of I think we get paralyzed because we think, I mean, we think, again, I think the brain is meant to look at things on a macro level.

and we miss like the small, you know, my new details. Less is more thinking, okay, when you're struggling, when you have like a fat loss grow, ideally speaking, obviously you're doing a caloric deficit, and when you get to a place where you, like, just, like, you're stuck. And the rationale then is being, I need to do more. I need to do more cardio, I need to train harder. A lot of times you need to do less.

Because, again, you got to understand. Once you are in a caloric deficit, alone, it's a stress-inducing process because you're telling your body, hey, you know, to eat less than when it needs to maintain. So when you do that over time, there are times where you don't need to push it. You need to take the foot off the gas a little bit. And I will give one of my clients as an example right now.

Sam is competing for a show. We're about eight weeks out. And literally, I mean, because we give ourselves enough time to prep, so if you're trying to get ready for the summer or get ready for a show, one of the biggest advice to give yourself time. Don't rush the process because if you rush it, you find yourself just, you know, spinning your wheels and trying to just force the issue a little bit.

So give yourself time to get to your goal. That's the number one advice I would give you. And two, when you get to the point where you give yourself enough time, you feel like, man, I'm doing one, I'm literally checking all the variables, sleep, maybe life stress, training stress. Again, the rationale of how do you do more and you do more. That might be just time for you to look at your training program. Ideally speaking, if you're on the instructor training program,

pull back a little bit on the volume, still, you know, maintain your intensity at which you're training. Pull back in training volume and that's an opportunity for what you do, break and back to Sam and what we did let's actually that in the last three weeks or so we put him on the caloric maintenance and guess what it's still losing weight obviously galic maintenance it's revolving it's not a fixed number it's not a fixed space and we keep increasing the food and it keep losing because again we've accumulated so much diet fatigue for the last 12 weeks and we plan for this because we anticipate that to happen so while you're going through your phallelous process it gets

to a space where you I mean it's naturally the thing okay if I'm going to lose more weight I need to do cardio. If I lose my weight, I don't eat less. When you get to a place where, okay, from a strategy point, I mean, there is a point where too low of a calorie is just too low. There is nothing else. And that's a good time for you to take a diet break. So how do you process this? How do you, you know, this and don't take it as a grain of salt. It's just like, you know, general rule of thumb that I want people to take away from this. Whatever calories you are taking in, add maybe, you know, of 200 to 250 calories on top of where you're taking it right now. Look at your training program.

Cut the volume down. Maybe if you're doing three sets per muscle group, cut it down to two sets. For most group, run that for like a week or so. And you've tracked data to your weight. And what you notice a lot of times is, wow, okay, the weight might go up a little bit, obviously because you eat more volume. But in terms of total rate of loss per week, you might see a downward trend on that scale. So one, less, I mean, more is not always.

is more, sometimes less is less. I'm not saying four weeks into the diet, oh, my God, you know, I'm fatigue. I'm, you know, diet break. No. You need to push yourself in a position where, okay, I think I've done everything I need to do now. I need to take a diet break. And if you want to, like, create a more, I mean, put in a trend, meaning in full, I'm going to do four weeks a hard diet or then a week of maintenance.

And if you are on the edge of maybe you have a lot of body, you know, body fat to lose for like somebody's like 200 to 300 pounds. You have a lot of body fat to give. A good strategy that I typically use for those people is it's going to be aggressive in nature. You treat it like a mini cut because one, because you have so much body fat to lose, it's a cycle throughout the whole time. You don't want to be in a caloric deficit for too long. You want to do it in a rinse and repeat fashion, meaning you spend in, let's say, eight, ten weeks in a fatless phase. And you possibly spend half that time in the maintenance phase, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

And you eventually get to a place where, wow, okay, this is a lot easier than that. I thought. But the biggest takeaway is a lot of time more is not always the answer. More cardio is not always the answer, especially if you are, even looking at your numbers and the scale of like, I don't think I can do more cardio. I'm doing cardio six times a week. I'm already doing, you know, cardio seven times a week. I mean, what more can I do? That's your cue. It's like, take a step back, take a break, take a diet break, scale back on the training volume for a week or two, let your body come down off that stress. Then you start slowly you wrap it back up. And one of the cool things about maintenance also just, you know,

give you a new baseline to actually start working with, especially if you introduce a maintenance and you see the trend going down, guess what? You start a much higher calorie rate when if you start to start digging again than you were before. So it's a little bit adaptive. It's a little bit, it's still hard, but it just makes the whole process a little more adjustable. Yeah, I mean, towards the end of my prep, I mean, my fatigue was high. And straight, stress was high. Yeah. And that last, the week before peak week,

195s on the scale every day. Calories are 1800. I was running. Nothing was changing. I started freaking out. Yeah. I was like I'm broken. Everything's broken.

And then going into peak week, we removed running. We replaced it with inclined treadmill walking. And I increased calories by about 300 a day. Amazing, right? and my weight went from 195 to 190 in that week. So just seeing that stress kind of just shed and managing that fatigue saw great results. If someone, you know, so I guess the first thing to address is that if someone has weight they want to lose,

and even significant body fat that they want to lose. And they want to do it in a healthy, sustainable approach. They still want to live their life. if they want to go out with friends and family and have a social life. First step is giving yourself enough time to lose that weight. Yep. Making that diet longer than expected or you plan for. Yeah.

And then introducing diet breaks. Yep. How often should someone introduce a diet break? So that's going to depend. So two ways you can do this. You can kind of just do it as you go or like plan for it. Like regardless of what happens, I'm going to die for 12 weeks, 8 to 12 weeks. and again you can call an audible if you get to a point like man I'm struggling like physically

you know struggling and I know that term for somebody that in a dive face it's very you know can emotionally you know call it I'm like oh struggling yeah die break so again it comes down to just one to be honest with yourself or just hire a coach that can you know allow you to take the emotional aspect of it if you want to do yourself give yourself okay having a plan it's amazing 12 weeks that's a diet fat loss and we need that 12 weeks

you want to spend at least one third of that time in an chloric business especially on the extreme side of things if you have a lot of body fat to lose

on the you know somebody like you know you're going to lose me 20 pounds or so might be shorter than that it might be eight weeks you know or you might be able

to go a little bit longer because you don't have a lot of body fat to lose the changes that your body's going to it's not going to be as dramatic as somebody who has two six to you or 80 or whatever. I want to lose a lot of bigger body fat to give. So that's typically a lot of

structure. So you want to structure having a plan or sticking to the plan, I think it's the best right. Instead of just winging it, I'm like, I'm just going to pull through that when I need it. Because when you have it on paper, you actually know you force yourself to stick to that plan and that will put you in a position to do that. And again, I think just to get a little more help there for people that are struggling, one of the biggest challenges, I mean, I look at, I look at things I do for a lot of clients, right? And especially on a lot of lifestyle side, I coach content sprayment, I coach lifestyle. And one of the things that gives a lot of result really is my goal as a coach is not to overhaul everything that you're

doing. Because a lot of change is very hard for a lot of people. The more things you change, the more resistance people are going to be. My job is not to overhaul. My job is to find one thing or two things that we can definitely change in what you're doing. And that could be okay. How much are you walking right now? Or can we, you know, can we, you know, track your, you know, can we do a food journal. Just one thing. I don't want to change. I don't want to have you do five things.

It's going to be overwhelming. Just like new resolutionists, for instance, show up to the gym. I'm going to train six days a week. You can't sustain that. If you've not been trained for a while, you probably show up for six days a week for the first week. And you realize your body's beat and he's like, oh, my God, I feel terrible. I'm not going to show up again. So again, back to the concept of human beings.

And I mean, we don't do well with a lot of choices. So I want to limit the amount of choices that you have to make. But those choices are going to be impactful and realize, like, oh, oh my goodness. It's like, wow, I don't really have to overcomplicate the process. I can simplify the process by just saying, okay, I want to change. Let's increase your step count. Let's get 8K steps a day. If you normally sit down for six, eight hours a day, good.

That's a metric that we can track. And food-wise, we're not going to focus on the film food. And you'd be amazed how much just that alone, the changes that I see on a scale, just by making that one simple change. And I think we live in a culture where also people Again, you get overwhelmed because of my God, I mean, I hate to blame Hollywood, but again, most people that people listen to are people that are popular.

You hear like, you know, I say like an actor had this dramatic transformation. Like, oh, tell me about your diet. Man, four days or four hours a day. I have to eat this and that. And people hear them like, man, that's all I have to do. Like to get to that level, that seemed impossible. But again, these are all the extreme.

extreme cases. And most people, like literally what you can do right now or just make that one or two change, I'm just going to increase my step count. It doesn't take your mind. You wake up in the morning, go for a walk, make sure you track your steps. Okay, if I normally eat like four times a day, I'm going to eat three times a day. Again, that eating three times a day, put you in a clock deficit. You move in more than you were before. That's enough to actually see some changes on a scale. Yeah, a lot of those actors too who are losing weight and body fat for a specific role. They're doing that over the course for like three to four weeks.

It's just for probably one day of shooting. They just need to look a certain way for a short period of time. And they go back to the normal way they were consuming and eating. Yeah, it's, I made a reel on a, I made a reel on a, uh, Michael B. Jordan, he was on a show, and was just like, oh, yeah, I train like, you know, granted, like the skill of the role he was training for, it was boxing. Of course, you have to be efficient. I have to look as natural.

When it comes in nutrition, it's like a broccoli. and broccoli and a fish and like, you know, this diet, I'm like, and everybody think that's what they, you know, that's what they need to do to get to because if, if Michael Beecho looks like that, that's what I need to do. Like, no, it doesn't have to be that extreme. And of course, just like anything else, the more extreme it is, the harder it is for you to sustain it. That's why you find yourself back to square one because I'm like, I cannot maintain this.

So, I mean, a lot of times, keep as simple as, I mean, as simple as possible, pick one variable to change at a time, consistently do that. And when you figure, you know, track your data, track as much information as much as possible. And when you track that information, your body is very adaptive. Your body's going to adapt to the change. And then you can add another layer of things you want to add to that. I want to maybe do more.

There's a variable that has to change. Decrease out, decrease input, aka food, reduce your calorie. Or you want to increase output, it could do more. Could be tracking steps. Could be add calories. And the way I do cardio for clients, I don't believe. you should step master is the king or running as the king I literally give you a set amount of calories I'm like I will let you choose that might give you like the mafetone method like want to be like zone two

whatever you know track your heart rate or that standardized processes you want to standardize processes you want to standardize could be a watch tracker could be a fit bit whatever a fit bit bit of system is track that and that is what we're going to use to track how many calories you expand in through that quote unquote cardio could it's about whatever form that you enjoy that you can actually see yourself do consistently, that is what I'm going to choose for you based on what you tell me you enjoy. Not because I tell you not, this is the way and this is the only way to get results. That Michael G. Michael B. Jordan comment made me think back to when I was in college and you know, just like it's kind of nostalgic thinking back to some of the bro science things that

I followed and thought was correct. And I remember hearing that, like healthy fats were great to incorporate back in your diet. So, you know, every night before going to bed, I would fill a tablespoon of olive oil and I would drink it. One, to get more calories and two, you get more healthy fats. And I remember when the big thing was that tilapia thinned the skin. Oh, the thin the skin. People were saying that if you ate more tilapia, it would thin your skin. So you look drier and leaner and more vascular. The body bit of forms. I was consuming so much tilapia. I'd go to like Sam's Club and I get a big, like 10 pound bag of frozen tulip. Toulopia.

Coming out of your pores. And I'd come home and I put them all on a pan in my college department with my five other roommates. Yeah. I'd do like two sheets, you know, two pan sheets in the oven of tilapia and just lemon pepper. Oh my God. Mrs. Dash.

Mrs. Dash. Sodium free. Because sodium was bad for you. Man. Yo. I mean, hey, man. Hey, Bruce Hines, man. I mean, thank God.

Thank God we live in the better. By least you have more people that, you know, more knowledgeable. and like their information that's being shared out there. I mean, again, you don't know what you don't know. Sometimes, you know, you look back and like, man, like, you got to learn somehow, right? You got to go through that and like, okay, well, this is what I was doing. But at least, I mean, you applied it, right? You didn't get paralyzed.

Like, well, that's what I'm going to do. So I got to do. But now you know not to do that because you have a better way of doing it. And I think, again, we get caught up in the space where, again, like, just like anything in life really, like, we over-analyzed too much. Sometimes just got to take a step and shove on, man. Like it's literally it's that simple. Might not be, don't wait for the perfect opportunity to like, oh my, I got to make

sure everything is, you know, just right dress, everything across everything. Now I'm going to like, no, there's no perfect time to do anything. So figure it out as you go, you know, understand, okay, this is what I did. Okay, this worked. This didn't work. Okay, whatever didn't work. Okay, whatever didn't work? Put it to the side.

Okay, I'm not going to hold on to what work. What else can we add more on top of that? And that's literally, that's how you get better. That's how you evolve over time. How important do you think it is to have a training goal? Because, you know, the conversation we've had so far is between bodybuilding and running and training for half marathons or full marathons. And, you know, if we look at both of us over the last decade plus of training, we've probably always had a fitness goal that we're training for. How important do you think that is?

Because there's a lot of people who just start training to train and they start running to run. but if I look at the times of my life where I've made the most progress mentally and physically through fitness, it's when I've had a pretty specific goal. How important do you think that is for people? It's crucial. It's crucial. I mean, again, I think there's a difference between working out and training. And I, you know, I made a correlation a while back.

I mean, training, working out is, I just want to check the box. I want to show up. I want to feel good, which there's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad you're doing that. you know, it's better than, you know, you're sitting at home and not doing anything. But then if you want to take that to the level because you care about, you know, actually improving your body composition or challenging yourself even further, then you have to switch that mindset to get training.

And when training comes into play, that's when you need to be very particular. You need to come down to literally like the specificity of what you're trying to do. And that gives you almost like a true north. You're not just winging it. You're not just showing up and kind of just figuring out as you go. Like you have a specific goal. And that keeps you accountable too. That keeps you the fire.

burning a gym because you're trying to chase after this thing. Could be you're trying to reach your first 300 pound bench or 15 pound with 40, four or five squat or whatever that goal curl X amount of weight or have a body composition or you can get a data. I want to add X amount of lean tissue mass on in the next 16 weeks. You collect the baseline data. This is what you have. And this is my goal for the next six.

I'm going to collect enough data to make sure, okay, how far am I as a goal? Again, there's a difference in working out in training. If you care about training, having a goal is very pivotal. In one, keep yourself accountable in a gym. You find yourself now winging it, even though when you don't want to do it, you will do it because you have a goal. You have something that you're chasing after and you're like, you know, trying to approach and to get to as opposed to, I don't really have anything.

I'm just going to show up. I can miss a workout today because I don't have a goal. Now give a good example, too, after the, I did a the first half marathon I did a five weeks ago. I had a goal of like, yes, that's what I want to do. Maybe like in five weeks or so I knew I had the fitness to at least finish a half marathon. Like, you know, how good at the time is going to be? I don't know.

And after that, I found myself on someone's like a rut, not a rub, but like I'm finding myself casually just like, I'm going to sleep in a little bit. I'm not going to, I'm going to, I'm okay to skip that route because I don't have a specific goal that I want to achieve. Right. And of course, I had the, you know,

come to Jesus' moment like, okay, one, shifted to the reason why I run because it's that moment of like conversation

on myself. It's that moment of, okay, if I don't do it in the morning, I know for a fact, I'm not going to do later, family, you know,

life and things like that. And then, okay, even there was a short period of time, like I show up, once I show up, I got out of bed on a Tuesday,

I went for this four-mile run. It was a great run. I was bragging to my wife. I'm like, man that four mile was great like negative split on the last two miles my legs feel heavy but look at my watch I'm like like a 750 pace I'm like what is going on it's like oh I mean do a half this weekend I'm like I would out of an end station like done doing it showed up lo and behold one of my best PR PR on the run without I mean without again paralysis by analysis I would have

sat there overthink the process ah lost fitness a little bit I only ran once a week I'm like I didn't and I don't think twice. I think which again puts less pressure myself because I don't have this weight of like, oh my God, I got to do that. Like, I'm going to show up. I'm going to put myself in a position to challenge myself and not figure it out as I go.

And I think that's one of the, I mean, I'm digressing a little bit. That's one of the beautiful things about running too that I found out is running to me is a series of problem solving. I think maybe you agree with this too. Like, that's the reason why I don't listen to music when I do longer runs.

Just because I know I will listen to music. because it's a form of distraction from running. It makes you feel good. But I realize the more distracted I am, the less in tune I'm with what my body is doing. And I need to be in tune with what my body is doing so I can mitigate whatever that issue is going to be. A potential issue is going to be.

And running just to like, you know, listen to music and I, you know, go out too hot because I'm vibing out. And also run without music, just gives me that that personal time like you know everything is within my ears i'm not you know there's no influence of some sort of music that's going to make me you know feel good or feel great like no i kind of want to you know own in and have that conversation and not find that sort of distraction and finding out like no running is literally a series of problem solving like okay ankle's kind of you know feeling a little bit funny change to get a little bit okay uh quasi a little bit

like, you know, adjust this. And that in itself, it's a form of distraction. Like, you know, because being in tune, it's a positive ROI. That's one of these reasons why I don't listen to music when I run. Yeah, I don't listen to music when I run. Occasionally I listen to an audiobooks or a podcast. Same. Same.

Short runs. But I think what a lot of people don't realize with music is because I used to listen to music why I ran. And what I found is, say, for example, I had to go out for an easy run. and that easy run I was aiming towards a heart rate of 135 to 1402-ish beats per minute If you listen to a song that is 160 beats per minute You are naturally going to start running at that pace and cadence

So if you do want to listen to music while you run You can go on Spotify And Spotify actually has running playlist Fakes off a range of cadence and beats per minutes Genius And it's amazing And I remember I was in Montana during, I was in Montana running and I was doing some work with one of my sponsors. And I'm like, hey, guys, listen, I got, I got some miles.

I got to log in like, I'm training. I was like, oh, sure, we just kind of, you know, follow you around. And that was one of my first experience with, like, runners high also. And I think it got affected because I was listening to airborne cadence. And I was that I was fired up. I was supposed to do 12. And for mile like one to like mile eight, I mean, I was cruising. I mean, I was, I mean, running out like, ooh, run is high.

I'm really the best feelings in the world. I mean, it's hard. It's hard to explain until you've experienced it. Like, I know what's talking about. Like, if you, he's floating, I mean, effortless. I mean, I'm just cruising it, which led me to bunk in like the last like three miles. But like, for that eight, though, I mean, it. It was one of the out-of-body surreal could be the location and in like the hills of Montana to.

I don't know, whatever it is. But I know for a fact, the military cadence, again, it's sort of like, you know, the airborne shuffle that comes on. I mean, it kind of allows you to kind of just like, I rhythm out, you know, the run a little bit too fast. And I'm like, no, I'm just going to bask in this joy. You know, whatever leads me, I'm just going to follow. And I literally have to shut the music down like eight miles. Like, man, this, I mean, this, this. And I think the last three miles like 11 something.

I was hurt in because I send it for like eight miles. So, but I, I've, I've cried on runs before. It is, it is. I heard you say that for like a while back and I'm like, I, I, I, I know. I mean, that, that was the run for me. And it's hard to explain, not about the experience. It is. And that's, it's, it's supposed you chasing that again.

Like, I'm, I'm chasing it. And I found that again, like the 18 miles that I did. That was like another one. That was not, that was just a different, like, I mean, I live with it's just, it's something. I was like, I'm screaming. People are like, what, what is it wrong with this guy? Like, this guy's nuts. I'm like, yes, I am.

I've had that before. You're screaming out loud. I'm like, I want to bottle this, put in a bottle and just like take a sip of it like every time. And it was, I mean, it's, again, it's one of those people, one of those beautiful things about running that. I cannot bottle it up and give it to you. You got to go out there.

And fortunately, maybe you're fortunate. Unfortunately, it's usually at the hand of. doing something hard something difficult that doesn't happen when you're laying in bed and just come i mean comfortably just chilling just hanging out no you do something hard whatever that hard is for you i guarantee you you have a similar experience and that just puts a level of trajectory and a projection into like into your life into that week i was right in that high for like a month straight like i mean in the 18 to 15 miles even came and i'm like i just like i just want to feel that thing again i just want to feel it again And that's why, you know, when you look at your shoes, I'm like, I just want, I want, I want to have as many moments as that.

So I can tap in if I need to or, like, you know, bottle that thing. And sometimes I want to shake people. I'm like, you too can have this. Like, just, just, just try a little bit harder. But again, it's hard to explain. And people that are listening, I've gone through that experience, like, man, I know what you're talking about. And that's, it's a drug. I mean, it's a, it's a high that you always chase it.

And if you don't have it, like, man, I hope the next one is it. I mean, you find, you're trying to strive. And at the time of that 12, that was the longest mile of running, like in months. So if you, if you, if this sounds something that, you know, it's not a drug you can buy the store. Like, no, I mean, they don't give it out for free. You have to do something extremely hard out of your element,

something that's uncomfortable for you for you to actually get that. And if you do, man, it's beautiful. And best part about that feeling, too, I think for a lot of people that have never experienced, that it seems so far-fetched and unrealistic, but it is earned where you have to log a certain amount of miles, and you have to spend a certain amount of time on your feet, and you don't know when it's going to come. It comes out of nowhere, but it's not your first run.

It's not your second run. It's not your 10th run. It's like you have to just spend time on your feet running. And at some point, all these conditions come together at the perfect time, the perfect place. And it's like, it's out of this body experience. It's, I mean, the closest that got was like, again, the last half that I did. And, I mean, one of the beautiful things about running also is just the community aspect of running. I mean, it's unlike bodybuilding.

I'll say that for a fact now. Again, the experience of like you, I mean, you know, stage, we'll clapping for you, but running alone and people just like, you know, that energy is so, I think you talk about, like, you know, Buffalo, like that energy was like. you know, like you can feel that. Yeah. And the same thing went for this run that I did, like in the Illinois, like a marathon or half marathon this past weekend. And the people that you meet, the community, the experience that you meet with people, like you, I mean, these are like core memories.

Like you have like pictures and flashes. Like, you know, you just take all that, all the random, you know, connection that I met with some, you know, a guy running his first marathon next to me. You might have I take on with you? I'm like, let's go. Let's ride. And like having a conversation with him, like literally running. of, I mean, while I'm trying to, like, you know, just enjoying that at the experience,

I was less focused on the time. I was like, and I'm just going to live in this, you know, this moment. Like, I'm connecting with this guy or running and, you know, and I saw this, this woman, just like with an Iron Man tattoo like on the back of a leg and I can just hear in the back and I'm like, focus. Focus. And that just sends me chills. And I'm like, I mean, that energy literally, it's almost like transferred and like the last

like a mile and a half when I was struggling a little bit. like, you know, so my cat was cramping up and like, okay. Like, I mean, it's, I mean, it's something that that I cannot describe. Runners know exactly what I'm talking about. It's just that energy that you cannot recreate in any other sort of venue, especially almost like that, that join, you know, shared misery also. We all suffering together. Like, that is beautiful.

Like, on my long runs on the weekend, I see everybody doing this like loop and we were just like, you know, giving each other high fives and pounding. I mean, it's amazing. Yeah, I was at the Buffalo, New York Marathon last May. I mean, I showed that race super dialed in. I towed that starting line so focused. Nothing was breaking my focus. And the first, like, I believe six miles of that course,

it's you go out like two and a half miles and you loop back around. And I went out in the front. I was holding like a six or five minute per mile pace. So as I'm coming back around after two and a half miles, I'm coming one way and all these other runners going the other way. and all these other runners were saying going more, going more, going more to me. And I was getting so jacked up.

I was like, all right, like, I'm not just running for myself right now. I'm running for this community. I'm running for this team. I'm running for going more. And that drove me so much. I was with Jack, crack Joe over the weekend in Chicago. We did an eight mile on that. Yeah, I was with him.

And we literally just talked about, like I said, I was going more hair. going on more hat on and was running and we saw a couple of people. And it's almost like it's that nod. Like, you know, it's almost like, I know what you're about. You get it. I mean, it's called a stereotype in. Like, I love that stereotype.

Like, guy that looks kind of, like, look jacked, it looks big and it's running like, like it's almost, it's that. It's a beautiful thing. And again, it's, I mean, it's a community thing. Like, we all want to be a part of something. And like, seeing that alone is, I mean, every race you do, at least I see a least one or two go on more hats or the um the bandanas um it's it's it's it's it's it's in it's in it's almost you don't have to say much you see it you recognize it and it's almost like go on more

going more yeah it's such i mean powerful phrase so you know hybrid when you see it's it's it's it's like yep i know i know i know i know what i know what you're about it's it's a beautiful it's a beautiful thing from someone who has a bodybuilding background from someone who is a professional natural bodybuilder, how has your nutrition changed as you started running? Because for me at least, I still eat like a bodybuilder. I always will. I'm spacing my meals out. Protein is priority. I'm focusing on healthy fats and carbohydrates. I'm still consuming 225, 250 grams of protein a day. I always will. So a lot of what I learned about nutrition early on was based off of the way I was eating to build a certain body and physique.

But what's different about bodybuilding and training for physique versus, say, performance and running is not many variables change with bodybuilding. Yeah. You know, a clear example is you're not going to be burning an extra 1,000 or 1,500 calories a day based off of output. Yep. But with running, you start incorporating and including these new variables that can change your caloric needs.

how is your diet changed since running more? Just like you, they didn't really change much. I have to prioritize protein because, again, because I'm running, my strength training hasn't really changed much. My volume, when it comes to legs, obviously because that's what I'm using predominantly. I've definitely shifted a little bit, but I've navigated that in my training program that I,

so I'll give you an example of what my structure training program looks like. Longer runs on Saturdays, Sundays, are my day one. I'm training upper because my leg is still pretty, I'm feeling pretty fatigue from the day before. And I found out by Monday I'm recovered enough to actually train legs again. So, but what I, I mean, the most fatigue part of my legs is quads. Hamstrings is typically fresh. So I'm going to put, I'm focusing on my quads on, on Monday, a Tuesday, off a body session could be a pull session on Wednesday hamstrings. So I knock out the leg portion so I have enough time for my leg and fall fatigue to come down before my next run again.

Then I have a Thursday where just like a know mobility, you know, some core work day and Fridays to pick the shoulders, which is not really directly impacting my performance on Saturday. So that's my running training structure. Nutrition all day long stays the same. 250, 260 mass of protein. Never break that. That's important to me because, again, I'm still prioritized and wanting to, again, maintain at least, or put my 7 in position to gain literature mass.

and my calories throughout the week doesn't really change much. Again, my five mile, three, four, five mile run. Like, I run my easy runs or slow runs like Tuesdays and Thursdays, my longer runs. I run three times a week now. My longer runs are on Saturdays. My nutrition in those days doesn't really change much because I don't really feel the effect of those like small runs. So nothing really changes.

But the only day that my nutrition typically would change is on Saturday post-long runs. I'm still prioritizing nutrition. I'm still prioritizing protein, but I don't really track. I just know I need calories. Calories. And I mean, I get, I mean, which again, because we're having to plan, can not have an plan can get carried away by just going to eat a bunch of stuff and just like for the sake of calories, calories, calories.

I'm like, okay, really back, buddy. Let's focus on quality. Because again, when I focus on quality, I can see the benefits of just prioritizing those and making sure, you know, recovery is on point to get me ready to, again, to run on Tuesday. So overall, protein is king, like in my nutrition. And I'm a creature of habits to literally on my meal, like every, my first four meals, I mean, throughout the day, the same thing every day. Same.

Like, I don't, and I mean, people might see that like, man, that's boring. Like, boring is amazing. Boring works. Boring gives me systems. Boring gives me structure. That I can literally not, I can follow that to a tea. And it's foods that I enjoy. It's not food that I'm forced upon to eat.

Yes, everything else after, like, you know, finish work around 5 o'clock might just be, you know, different. I think probably the same for you too. But still the priority and the focus is still a lot of protein. Calories, I'm not really tracking calories, so to speak, but I'm aware because I've done it enough to understand. Or, you know, I can ballpark, okay, this is where I'm at. If I want to manage running in like Conspirate, for instance,

yes, I might need to be a little more, you know, detail as far as, you know, grams and protein and things like that. Overall, protein is king on the longer runs, calories, but still focusing on the quality of the food, not just, oh, I'm going to just eat, you know, pizza and whatever, like, you know, just to get calories. Because when I do that, yes, I recover, but I can tell the difference between, okay, prioritizing quality of the food, uh, compared to just, oh, just get random calories in too. Yeah, first three meals in my day, every day are the same.

And I look forward to those meals every single day. Every single. And I think one thing I also thought, I thought about when you come into, I mean, I mean, coming into like the fat loss process. And, um, one thing I will encourage you, if you all go, every game because we get into the summer. People might, you know, want to be, you know, get lean. One thing I tell people also, I'm a corporate guy. I work a corporate job like most of, most of you guys. I'm listening. I'm a dad. I got kids. One thing that's helped me, and I've helped a lot of client,

is creating a structure. And the meals that I eat create, I have a structure for myself. And if you're struggling in a fat loss journey, one of the best things that I can tell you is for you not to be food focus is to stay busy. A busy mind is a less focused mind. I made the point initially that when I'm a content spread, but I literally sometimes I'm like so locked in, I get, I get, I start work, turn my computer, grab my coffee, I'm sitting down. I eat a couple of protein bars. Like, you know, what I kick my day off with? I'm like so locked in into work because again, I'm putting out a bunch of fires that I sometimes like, oh crap, I got to eat. So if you find you, there's a project that's not maybe to energy demand.

There's something you can focus on and shift that focus on, not necessarily food, and that will definitely help you to stay less food focus and just find a system and a structure. Because if you find a system, you can standardize it. You can find a system. It's easy for you to repeat that without second guessing, overthinking it. You just literally look, oh, that's right. I mean, show up, bam, bam, bam, we just keep moving on. So again, same food that I eat, not because, you know, I'm stuck with it.

No, for that I can enjoy every single day. Like my first three, four meals, the same. The second meal, maybe like, you know, even with the family when I get home and my hat, man, and the day with like some sort of like, you know, big protein, like, you know, a meal. Like it would be like a five-a-greek yogurt or something like that, like a scoop of like, you know, cinnamon rolls, something like that.

Some blueberries. And that's like my meal at the end of it. And I love eating that. Call me boring. Call it, whatever. I don't, if somebody asks me like, hey, what's your favorite food? I'm like, I don't have one.

I'm boring. I'm boring. I'm plain as to come. Like, I don't crave like, oh, my God, can I always have a large pizza? I just, I just, I look at food that literally feel. Not like, oh, my God, I can always enjoy this. I don't have that thin. Yeah, like my favorite meal right now is rice, ground beef, primal kitchen's buffalo sauce,

and pickled jalapenos. I've been eating that every day since perhaps been over. and I look forward to that meal every single day. Keep it simple, man. And again, I think Spock, I mean, not to keep hopperin on nutrition. Again, with a flexible diet approach, right, you know, I think one of the downside to a flexible diet and it created this wave of people thinking like,

I'm just to eat cheeseburger as long as it fits my macros and negate the fact that, no, the quality of the food still matters. So flexual diet and creating this opportunity, I can just create the seven, six different ingredients, in this meal, and as long as it fits my macros, and it just complicates the process. I mean, literally, how many times you have to sit down and make food with like six, seven,

simply, I mean, different ingredients for the sake of fitness, my macros. The food you just mentioned just now, literally you have three simple ingredients and that's it. That simplifies that for you. You spend less time you're prepping. You're not looking for ways

to kind of just, you know, pack as much stuff in as much as possible. Find the foods that you enjoy. Find the foods that you can repeat. Don't jump on a fat because it looks cool. or sounds sexy, because if you can't, if you jump on that fat,

if you cannot structure that, if you cannot consistently see yourself doing it, years from now, it's probably a good sign to tell you that that might not be the plan for you. So find the food that you eat right now. Eat less of it,

you know, quality of the food matters, simplify the food choices that you're making. And yes, you can swap, you know, protein choices from time to time, you know, carbs choices for time to time.

If you focus on quality of the food, the quality of the food, foods that you're cooking, prep for yourself. Guarante chances are it's going to be very satiating, and you're not going to be consuming as much calories I just think you were before. I think a lot of people that start running, I did the same thing. You overestimate how many calories you're actually burning during that exercise. And a lot of it's because our wearables tell us we burn X amount of calories, which is typically very inaccurate.

I remember I would go downtown Austin and I'd do the 10-mile loop. and I would run at like peak day in August in Texas, just like dying. And after that runs, when I first started running, I would go to Whole Foods downtown. And I get like a large chunky monkey protein shake. I'd like fill my plate with like $40 worth of food on the hot bar. Recovery bro. Yeah. And I was like in my mind I was thinking I just burn so many calories.

My metabolism is ramped up. I got to eat as much as possible. And what happens with a lot of people is, you know, you start running potential to lose weight. And you might even gain weight because you're over-consuming based off of, you know, this unrealistic calorie burn that you think you are experiencing. No, I mean, it's again, I mean, as fresh as a year ago, I'm looking at my, oh, a thousand calories. Like that's almost like it's an approval. Like, yeah, go ahead, man, you know, send it, you know. To hold another meal.

Yeah, you know, send it. Like, you know, pizza. easy. That's a large pizza right there because I'm trying to replenish, trying to recover. And again, you learn real quick that that's not what you really want. I mean, from the digestive standpoint to, like, chances that's not going to sit well in your stomach. You want to stick to the foods that you normally would eat anyways. And understanding that, again, I was definitely helping terms of like, you know, improving recovery or not just, you know. And again, it's almost like a permission.

It's like, oh, yeah, you know, fuck around. You know, just eat whatever you want. learning that in the hard way and you know again having a good coach I let's like me I know better but at the same time it be you thinking I mean and I just spend a lot of calories got to recover and that's like you know whatever calories is the name of the game like not calories it calories is the name of the game but the quality in the quality of the meal still matters so learning that the hard way and I can definitely tell you know making that switch I can definitely tell the difference in between okay a large pizza or like

you know a china you know Chinese food or something like that because it packed a lot of calories. It's not the route. And I still want to focus on, okay, prioritizing protein, which I never really used to do, like in a push run. But again, imagine somebody at a no bed as a coach,

understand, you know, macronutrients and in recovery, still making that mistake. And I'm like thinking, okay, that's not the route because dynamics are changing in performance, from strength performance to more of a, I will not do that when it comes to strength performance. Why should I do something like that when it comes to, you know, cardiovascular endurance and things like that? They should be relatively the same because the name of the game is recovery.

What gives you the best chance of recovery? Making sure you provide in proper nutrients for your body, for your body to have to recover and show up for yourself the next day. That's a great observation. I did that same thing in the beginning. When I first started running, I made that mistake of not including protein in my post workout run. and I think a lot of the the theory behind it is when you think of running, at least me,

running, you are using muscle glycogen. Yeah, you want to restore. And you want to restore muscle glycogen in those muscles post-workout. Or forget the repair part. Exactly, and you forget about the protein. So you gravitate towards carbohydrate sources to replenish glycogen,

but you're also just working those muscles during that run, so you need protein as well to support recovery. And I mean, I mean, I might change a little bit, I have from time to time, because obviously protein is very satiated. And by least I want to make sure the least, you know, the least amount of requirement for me has been met for that day. At least 220 is like my minimum requirement. I want to hit. If I go over beyond that, great.

Like, you know, trace macros and things like that. But prioritizing, you know, not just have like a free fall day, like, you know, I just send it. And make sure, okay, post run, protein, that's the first thing. I make my nice little smoothie, you know, put a couple of, I mean, some berries in there, honey, peanut butter and all that stuff, make a nice little smoothie. And that's what I kick my day off with. And the rest of the day, I'm still prioritizing. And essentially find myself just eating normally, maybe like the last meal or so.

I just be more volume of like rice or potatoes or things like that. And I normally would, I mean, would not eat throughout the week because I don't have that sort of output compared to like my longer runs. Yeah. Well, Sam, I appreciate you making the trip here. Of course. sharing a lot of your insight. You've gained so much wisdom and information through years of competitive bodybuilding,

being a coach, now getting into running and kind of applying all the things you've learned to that. So I appreciate you sharing a lot of information today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a long time coming. There's no better place to share that than here. You know, the go-wam I said, I mean, run has been very impactful. thin for me, which again is something like, you know, I found I didn't think it was going to be

this thin. And again, you don't know what you don't know. And you got to put yourself in position to, you know, figure things like that out. So thank you for having me. Yeah, it's been a fun chat. Thanks, man. Thank you. That's a wrap.