The Nick Bare Podcast - 026: Training Gary Vee, Interning at Westside Barbell, and Building Sustainable Fitness with Jordan Syatt

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

Today on the show, I sit down with Jordan Syatt, an expert in all things strength training, fat loss, athletic performance, and nutrition. Jordan shares his most significant lessons from training Gary Vee, stories from his transformative years at Westside Barbell, and how he is currently helping thousands of people build sustainable fitness programs to reach their goals. Enjoy the episode! Save 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio Follow for more:  IG: https://www.instagram.com/nickbarefitness/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@nickbarefitness Keep up with Jordan here: IG: https://www.instagram.com/syattfitness/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@jordansyatt Topics: 00:00 Intro 1:26 Becoming Gary Vee’s personal trainer 5:46 The email that changed Jordan’s life 10:47 Self-accountability 15:17 Biggest lessons from Gary Vee 19:44 Curating your ecosystem 30:13 Westside Barbell training 44:06 Strength vs. muscular development 55:30 Changing styles of training  1:00:59 Athletes vs. general population 1:05:21 The struggle for consistency 1:12:53 How becoming a father affects your fitness 1:23:55 Superpowers for success

What's the best diet? What's the best workout? What's the best this? The best that I'm like, stop looking for the fucking best. Just do something. Because the reality is everything works as long as you're consistent with it. Even in business. Well, what's the best business model?

I don't know. A business model that feels really good to you that you can do for 20 years. Same thing with fitness plans. I think it's nutrition and workouts, all of it. It's what can you stick to and enjoy the most? Yeah. And workouts are tough because a lot of coaches, they'll say things like, well, you just got to find the workout you love. There are some people who will never love working out.

Ever. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't work out. That just means they've got to fucking do it. They've got to find the one they hate the least. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank you for tuning in and supporting the brand. Now, I have spent the last decade plus of my life building bare performance nutrition.

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I appreciate you. And let's dive into the show. Today on the podcast, we have Jordan Siat from being trained by Louis. Louis Simmons to training Gary Vee. My first question for you before we really dive in your story and the background of your experience, training, fitness journey. How did you become Gary V's trainer? First and foremost, it's great to be here.

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. So this is our first time meeting. It's been a pleasure thus far. Well, thank you. It's sort of a long story. Is that okay? That's perfectly fine.

Okay. All right. So I started making content in 2011. So in July 2011, I started my website from my dorm room in University of Delaware. I hated school. I was like not good at it. I was on a special education. So started a website.

I didn't really know what I was doing. My mentor at that time, J.C. Dean was like just write articles that help people. That was it. Before Instagram existed, before I knew an online business was possible. I had trained at Westside. So I started writing articles like once a week and they were long articles. There were like 2,000 plus word articles. It would take me like 16 to 24 hours of work just for one article.

And for the first two years, I got like 20 views a day on my website, and 18 of those were my mom. And the other two were me. So like no one was looking at my stuff. So basically one of the articles that I wrote in 2012, it was to this day, it's one of my least viewed, least popular articles ever written. It was about like three ways to improve your posture if you work at a desk all day.

And I thought it was a great article. but apparently no one else did, except for one guy who found the article, and I didn't know who he was, didn't know where it was from, nothing. All I know is I got a comment on the article. And anytime someone left a comment, I would always reply. And I still try and do that to this. To this day, it's just more difficult with more comments.

So he asked a question and I replied, that was it. This is in 2012. Years go by, I'm starting to build my business, da-da-da, whatever. basically the guy who left that comment, he at that time was an accountant in Chicago. A couple years later, he decided he didn't want to be an accountant anymore. He moved to New York City for an internship in fitness. Through that internship, he met Gary,

and he became Gary's personal trainer. Then he coached Gary for two years. This guy's name is Mike Vacanti. He coached Gary for two years. At the end of the two years, Gary said to Mike, he was like, do you want to keep coaching me? And Mike was like, listen, man, like, it's great, but like I want to do other things now.

It's a very brutal travel schedule. He wanted to try his own stuff. Gary was like, okay, well, I need to know who's going to train me. Like, I need to get a new coach. And Mike was like, I think I know a guy. And again, I didn't know Mike was the same person that left this comment in 2012. We hadn't kept in touch. We didn't know each other.

But Gary had a lot of hip issues, back issues, knee issues, really specifically is hip and back. And so Mike had followed me for years from that posture article that I wrote in 2012. I was living in Israel. So Mike and I got connected, and Mike was like, how would you like to coach Gary? And I was like, that's wild. Like there's, and I, at this time, I didn't even know Mike was that guy still. Like, he didn't say, hey, I'm the guy that left the comment.

Like, that connection wasn't made. I just knew Gary, Gary's personal trainer was talking to me and we were discussing if I was going to coach him. So I flew from Tel Aviv to New York to coach Gary for an interview. Flew to New York, coached him for an hour, flew back to Tel Aviv. And I didn't hear anything. I didn't know if I got the job.

Six weeks goes by and like, I just assumed I didn't get it because I didn't hear anything. Right. All of a sudden, I'm at my family's house in Haifa in the north of Israel, and I get a text message from a number that I don't know, and it just says, are you ready? And I just reply, who the fuck is this? Is it Gary?

And Gary sends me a picture of him shirtless and flexing, and that's how I found out I got the job. And then like a week later, I moved from Tel Aviv to New York, and I coached Gary. seven days a week for three years straight nonstop every day no weekends no vacations no breaks wherever gary was i was i was in hong kong i was in hong if he was in hong kong if he was in l a i was in l a every day for three years and it was one of the most amazing experiences of my life gary is like a father to me in many ways and still like look up to him tremendously um but yeah

that's that's how i got the job what were you doing in your professional career for work prior to working with gary so again i started my my website in 2011 11. But before that, I was just coaching people in person. I had started the powerlifting team at the University of Delaware. And I always thought that I was just going to open up a gym one day. That was just like, that was the track for personal trainers. Ideally, you open up a gym one day. And so that's what I thought I was going to do. It's a dream for most people who fall in love with training in the gym. Open a gym. That was it. My whole family, they were like, why don't you, like, why don't you be a doctor or a lawyer? Like, my whole family is very smart and very, like, they're very, like, highly educated people.

And I was just like, I want to be a personal trainer. Like, this is just what I love doing. And they were always telling me, don't do it, don't do it. So I thought I was going to open a gym. And then I started making content. Again, in 2011, this is before Instagram existed. I didn't know an online business was possible. And so I was just writing articles mimicking the people in the industry that I looked up to

because I admired them. So Eric Cressy, Tony General Corps, Dan John, Joel Jamieson, Mike Robertson, guys, the industry who were just, just tightens. And I learned from so much. And so I was like, all right, if they're writing articles, I'll write articles. Lion McDonald, Alan Erdogan, all these people. So I'm just starting writing. And people, as people start to find my website, they're reaching out.

Can you write me a program? And I would do it for free because, again, I'm 21, 22, and I didn't know a business was possible. The thing that changed it was there was a woman from Brazil who reached out to me, I believe was 2012, 2013. and the way she phrased her email changed my life forever. She just said, how much do you charge for one-on-one coaching?

And I was like, I don't know, $300. I just made it up. It was the first time someone asked to pay because I was just doing it for free for everybody. $300 a month? No, $300, period. I didn't know like a monthly. I was just like just said $300 flat.

That's it. Like I didn't know. And I was like, there's no way she's going to say yes anyway. And she was like, cool, how do I pay you? I was like, that's a great question. So I went on Google and I was like how to make online payments. And I found this thing called PayPal.com. And so I set up an account, center the link.

And I was like, there's no way this random person from Brazil is going to pay me $300, which like, that's a lot of money, period. But especially at that point in my life, that was a lot of money. I get a notification that this woman paid me $300. And I freaked out. Not because I was like, I got $300, but because I was like, Holy shit. Now I have to make the best program ever in the history of the world or she's going to be pissed. So I went to, I was again at University of Delaware, which I hated, but I went to Main Street.

There was a coffee shop called Brew Haha. I sat there for two days straight. And I just tried to design the most amazing program in the history of the world. Everything from the actual design of the program, like the exercise selection, the puritization, all of it, all the way to making it look nice and having my branding on it and all this stuff. So I spent two days. I sent it to her and I was so worried that she was going to be like, what is this? Like this is a waste of money. I sent it to her and within an hour she's like, this looked great.

Thanks. And that was it. And that's how I started coaching people one-on-one. And eventually I learned I can't just have a flat 300. It's going to have to go buy something. So then I'm going to charge you like every month. And then I like, I did like 12-week packages. And like there were all these different things I did until I finally figured out what was best for me.

but I did one-on-one coaching from that point until 2017. But in 2015 is when I started my membership in which I was like, okay, I had maxed myself out for one-on-one clients. And I was like, okay, I need something that is less expensive so that people who can't afford one-on-one still have access to me and I can help them. But also, I can't keep taking on more one-on-one because my quality will just go down. They need scalability. Exactly.

So then in December of 2015, I started my, membership, my inner circle. And basically, I was very scared because my entire business model was based on one-on-one up to that point. And it was like 300 a month for one-on-one. So it was very difficult for me to go from, hey, I'll charge this person 300 a month to 2499 a month. Like, it was very difficult for me to make that switch. I didn't grow up with money. Like, money was always like something that caused me a lot of anxiety. So for the first two years of the inner circle, I still really only pushed my one-on-one. And then in July of 2016, I had a call with my assistant.

I was like, I need you to not allow me to take on more one-on-one clients because it's actually hindering my growth. So we basically figured out who we would refer people to if they wanted one-on-one coaching and if they wanted to join the inner circle they could. But that's when I stopped promoting one-on-one. I was still working with one-on-one clients, but I stopped promoting it. Slowly they dwindled away, dwindled away until now it's just all the inner circle. But when I was coaching Gary, it was a mix of one-on-one and my membership.

So I started my business in 2012. Yeah, yeah. So much of what you said is so relatable. I was at college, the Indiana University of Pennsylvania out near Pittsburgh. Okay. And I was going to school for nutrition. I was on an Army ROTC scholarship. Took out a loan to start the business that I built today.

Yeah. Spent all the money on inventory. So I had a friend designed the website, another friend designed the logo and labels. I went to launch the site. And just like you, I was like, how do I accept payment? So I found this thing called PayPal.com. And I realized PayPal is great, but it's like the easiest thing for people to scam you on. So like people were making purchases through other people's PayPal accounts.

I would fulfill and ship the order. And then I would get like a chargeback. You know, when you're first starting a business. Yeah, it's like devastating. I remember one of my first big orders came through. And I think it was like $700. Wow. A massive order.

You only one product. So they bought like, you know, a dozen plus bottles of pre-wrefer. workout, which that should have, like, alarmed me. Right, right. And I fulfilled this order and it came back as a chargeback. You know, it's a new business owner with like no money. Crushed my soul. Yeah, of course.

So, yeah, that's kind of where I started and when I started. But the fitness industry was so different in 2011, 2012 compared to now. You know, I would go on bodybuilding.com forums. Yes. And you're trying to find all these credible sources. Like, Green Norton was putting out some really good. stuff at the time. And then fitness YouTube started growing around that time.

Yep. There were still a lot of this bro science, like traditional bodybuilding content being regurgitated. Yes, exactly. That was just extremely inaccurate and old. But just seeing the evolution of the fitness

space and industry over this last decade has been very interesting. Yeah. I heard you talking about this on the Mind Pump podcast. I think you recorded that like three years ago. Yeah, I'm going back in September. Those guys are the best. I love those guys.

We had Sal on the podcast. Dude, he's so jacked. Holy shit. He's big guy. Oh, my God. But I was listening to that episode that you guys recorded and they asked you a question,

you know, as this industry has evolved, and there's obviously a lot of good being practiced and preached and shared. There's also, I don't want to say bad, but there's just like lack of information that is being shared. The mind pump crew asked you, question and your response and you said you're seeing a net positive and like that really

rung true to me and you also made a side comment of you know the the the information and content you consume you get to go find you know what it is and where you're you're listening to it and who's saying it yeah so you get to curate the information you hear personally yeah and i thought that was really interesting and i kept thinking about it because i listened to it on my one of my runs And that's just like a characteristic of self-accountability. Yeah. You have to hold yourself accountable to find the right information that's out there. And you can't blame others for putting out bad information because you chose to listen to it.

And you didn't do your due diligence to find the right stuff. Exactly. I thought all that that you talked about was great. Thank you, man. Yeah. It's true. It's a lot of people say social media is toxic. It's sort of like when people, there's just one person and every relationship they have, it always ends.

And I was like, yeah, that person was toxic. That person was toxic. I'm like, I think you're the fucking toxic person. Like, because everyone else is toxic. I think you've got the issue. And these social media platforms, they're very smart. Like, they're outrageously smart. They know exactly what you want to see because that's what you interact with.

And it's funny, Gary said to me one day, he's like, if you want to know what someone is really interested in, look at their explore feed. It's like the most true thing in the world. And my explore feed is strength training and jiu-jitsu and babies. Because, like, those are the three things that I'm, like, most interested in right now. I have a daughter. I'm obsessed with Jiu-Jitsu and strength training and also stand-up comedy. Like, that's my explore feed because that's what I watch. So if you're engaging with things that are making you feel worse or are bad or whatever

it is, like, I don't know. If I was engaging with mainstream media news, like I think I would think social media is very toxic because mainstream media never makes me feel good. It increases my blood pressure. I just always feel bad after I look at it. So if you are looking at stuff that is making you feel bad, then it is your responsibility to unfollow those accounts and stop looking at that stuff. You are in control?

100%. What are some of the things you learned from Gary after working with him? Because I think it was four years. Three years, three years, yeah. Leaving that position, which I'm sure it was exhausting and difficult, but extremely rewarding, which I'd love to hear more about, you know, leaving that role, what were some of the key takeaways that you've now implemented into your life? Yeah, so there's two main ones, and there's a lot, but the two biggest ones are number one,

I'll tell the story. Basically, early on when I started coaching Gary, I came in with an ego because I had already built a business on my own. Right? So I had already built my business. The whole reason I was able to get coach Gary is because of the business that I had built. And so I had a huge chip on my shoulder and I was like, I'm an entrepreneur. No, I'm not.

I had this whole idea that I was a big shot. But when I saw how hard Gary. actually worked, it blew me the fuck away. Am I allowed to swear, by the way? Sorry about that, man. I should have asked. This guy works harder than I would imagine the president of the United States worked. Like, he is just, like, he works so hard.

I can't even articulate it. It's hard to describe it. When I first saw his Google calendar, I couldn't believe it from five or six in the morning every day until like 11, 12, 1 at night, every single day, except the weekends. But like, even on the weekends, he was still working. It was nuts. And so I remember I was on the plane one time with him and with his videographer DRock. We were going somewhere.

I don't remember. But we landed at like two in the morning. And the whole flight, I was just working, working, working, working, work on it. The whole flight. And we get off the flight and Gary Seiddle's up next to me and he goes, how much harder do you work now compared to when you first started working with me? And I hadn't really thought about it until he asked. I was like, it was night and day.

And I did work hard before I worked for him or before I was his coach. being in that ecosystem and seeing how hard he worked and how hard DRock worked and how hard Ty his assistant worked seeing how hard everybody works in that ecosystem it completely changed my perception of what hard work actually is and I realized like

if there's ever an issue just work harder like that was one of the most important lessons I ever learned in my life not just with business but in relationships with anything if something isn't working work harder

and I always like laugh because people like I do work hard. I'm like, do you take a nap at all in the day? And then you're not working as hard as you can. And I'm not saying naps are bad. At this point in my life, and this is the next point that I learned. But like if you want to succeed in something, the only, the biggest thing that's barring you from getting there is your ethic, your work ethic. That's really it. Now the other thing that I learned from Gary is that's not the life that I want. I don't want to work that hard for my whole life, like at all. So watching Gary, he's, loves it. Like he loves every single day working really hard. Like not taking naps. Just like doing like

working. He's got over a thousand employees. Like he is constantly on call and constantly working and that's what he loves. For me, seeing that made me realize that's not what I want at all. I think it's easy for people to look on social media and see the private jets and see everything and be like, oh my God, I want that life. I'm like, I don't think you do want that life because I don't think you know what you'd have to sacrifice in order to have that life. And so for me, being able to take a nap in the middle of the day, that's the life that I want. Being able to put my daughter down to sleep every night

and like sing her the ABCs or pray with her or whatever it is. Like, I want to be able to do that. Like for me, being able to see what it takes to have that level of success just taught me that I didn't want that level of success because I wasn't willing to put that work in. Yeah, I recently had Chris Williamson on the podcast. I saw that, yeah. And one of the things he said that he learned from Joe Roe,

Rogan was just because something is difficult doesn't mean it is valuable. And I think that is an exercise of self-awareness. You have to identify what you actually value in life. Yeah. Not what other people tell you you should value, but what do you actually value? And we'll get to this later in this discussion, this conversation, but like having a child has changed what I value in life now. Yes.

So just because something is difficult to achieve doesn't mean. you necessarily will value it when you, when you do get it. You mentioned ecosystem. I kind of want to pry a little bit more there. Yeah. Being in that ecosystem, like being placed in that ecosystem, really push you. Yeah. It facilitated growth.

How important is it to curate an ecosystem in your life with the people you spend your time with? Yeah. And how does that affect your work, your happiness, fulfillment, your ability to grow and evolve? Yeah. How do you view that? I know it's a cliche, like the five people you spend most time with, like all that stuff, but I think it's one of the most important things in the world.

I literally just had a real heart-to-heart with a buddy in mine two or three nights ago because I've seen him surrounding himself with people that are definitely not good for him. And I just told him, I was like, listen, man, I love you. But you need to stop this because these people are having terrible influences on you. They're spending money you don't have on shit that you don't need, and you're very unhappy and you're getting unhealthy because of it. And he was really appreciative of that. But for me, it's the same thing.

Like, I have no problem cutting someone out of my life if they're not good for my life. It's like no issue whatsoever. I have a very small circle of people. But it's all people who I try to contribute to their life and they try to contribute to mine. For me personally, I think the thing that I hate the most around someone is if they just complain all the time. Like, that for me is poison. I can't, I can't do it. I get angry.

My blood pressure goes up. I just, I can't, can't be around someone who's constantly complaining. So if someone's complaining, I was like, nope, like, I'm going to minimize my interactions with you as much as possible and only surround myself with people who are looking at things from a positive, optimistic perspective. And that's pretty much it. And I think that's having that has allowed me to maintain a more positive optimistic perspective because it's the same, like I mentioned earlier.

And I say this all the time. People get mad when I post on social media to stop watching mainstream media news. They get mad. Like, how else am I going to like know what's going on? on them like when has watching that ever changed your actual behavior like when has watching CNN or Fox or whatever made you be like oh this is going to make my life better from knowing this like not never it's propaganda and people get mad whenever I say it but it's the truth so if you're home all day watching Fox or watching CNN or whatever it is you're going to be a and

there's research on this actually the your level of happiness is significantly lower when you do that when you surround yourself with people or surround yourself with um opportunities to be more optimistic and positive. Crazily enough, life gets better and your rate, your happiness improves, your health improves, longevity improves all of it. Yeah,

there's people who either give energy to you or take energy away from you. Yes. Me and my wife sit down sometimes. Like, we'll, for example, go to dinner with people and you get home and you're exhausted. Not a good exhaustive. You're like, holy shit,

they just sucked all my good energy out of me. Yes. Then you leave some dinner. and you're like, you're fulfilled. Like, you don't want to sleep because all you want to do is work and build and grow. Yes. And I definitely agree with, you know, curating the people in your life. But like something I think about frequently is like you never want to be the smartest or most successful person in the room.

Correct. And by no means I'm not saying that like the rooms that I'm in, I'm the smartest and most successful. But your mindset in terms of perception of ability grew by spending time with derelict. Rock and Gary Vee, I'm always thinking, where do I find or where can I find or where can I tell people to find these groups of people that are out there that are doing these big, massive, ambitious things. Yeah. Because sometimes you just don't know what you don't know.

Correct. Like you're with a group of friends or coworkers or family and they're telling you you're crushing it and you think you're crushing it. Yeah. And because they're telling you you're crushing it and based off of their level of work ethic, you are crushing it. Yeah. then you go spend a week with these higher achievers and you're really thinking, oh, I'm not crushing it.

It's all relative. Right, right. It's all relative. But I do really agree with if you want to push the limits of your full potential and you want to realize what's actually possible, you have to put yourself in a position to experience like people who are doing hard, challenging big things because it's an eye opener. And that's going back to the discussion around social media being a net positive, it is now easier than it ever has been in the history of the world to, quote unquote, surround yourself with people who are doing better and working harder and inspiring you. I mean, people follow you. I actually have a crazy story for you that I was going to open this podcast with. I'll tell you in a second, but people follow you, even if they don't know you personally or they can't surround themselves with you or people like you, they can follow you.

they can watch your videos. And like, that's one of the most amazing things in the world right now. I was like, you can choose who you surround herself with, even if you're not with them in person. So I was going to save this for the podcast. I'm excited about this. So I was, my wife, daughter, and I, we flew to Nashville like a month ago. We were going to an event for Dave Ramsey, who's amazing.

And we flew from Dallas to Nashville. The plane landed. And we taxi. The plane comes to a stop. And, you know, people get up, start to, in their bags. So we get out in the aisle. And as I'm walking down, like, we're coming down. There's a guy and a woman as we're passing. They're staying in their seats. And as I'm passing, I hear him say like, oh, yeah, this is from Nick Baer Fitness. And without thinking,

I just knew I was coming on this podcast about a month. Without, I wasn't like a, I want to say anything. It was just like, the words floated out of my mouth. Oh, I'm going on his podcast. a month. This guy turns around and says, shut the fuck up. He freaked out. And he was like, what's your name? I was like, Jordan's side. He goes,

I'm going to fucking watch. And he lost it. I was just like, that, like, that's great. He was super excited. And again, just goes to show like how much impact you can have on someone, even if you're not physically surrounded by them. So people ask, like,

how do you find these people? How do you find these people? Like, start, by following them on social media and then, and like reach out. I mean, that's how I got all of my internships. I would reach out and I'd be like, hey, I'll clean the floors. I'll take your dogs on a walk. I'll do whatever.

Like, I'll work for you for free. Or just reach out to people and send them a message. I love what you're doing. Like, see if they want to hop on a call or something. I think it's people massively overcomplicate this. But if you can find a way to surround yourself with people who are inspiring to you, it's, I think, the best thing you can do

or one of the best things you can do. And I'll also say, I've always, I've always been unsure about the you never want to be the smartest person in the room, only because I've found that there have been times when I'm with people who are much smarter than me in the room. And they're the smartest one in the room for sure. And they've helped me. And because they were that smartest person in the room and they lent their time to me,

I was able to do what I've been able to do, only because of the people who gave their time to me. So I'm at a point in my life now where it's like sometimes I will seek out opportunities to surround myself with people who might just need help. And maybe they don't inspire me. Maybe they're not like doing anything crazy. But by me being there, that's also given me much more fulfillment. I think it's the balance of sometimes I'm taking.

Like when I'm deliberately seeking out people who are better than me in so many ways, I'm taking. I'm taking value. Like I just want to learn from you. But then also balancing that with giving everything that I've learned as well has been super helpful. That fills two different cups. Exactly. My strategy and my intent of creating content over the years has always been, I want to show people what they truly can do.

For me, growing up in central Pennsylvania, like my dad's side of my family were dairy farmers. My mom's side of the family were a lot of military. Okay. My grandfather, uncle cousins, they served in the military. And just growing up, I thought there was this ceiling of what I could achieve. and that I could never break past that. So my plan was I was going to join the military. After the military, I was going to be a chicken farmer in central Pennsylvania.

Me and my brother started working my grandpa. We were already getting land set up and working contracts with like Bell and Evans and Tyson chicken. Wow. So that's where I thought my future was at one point. And then I started my business and I had the experience in the military. and I started realizing while I was building confidence, I think I can do more.

I think I can do more. I think I can do more. And as you set these goals and then you accomplish some, you fail at some, you know, like Tim Grover talks about in his book, winning,

every time you achieve a win, it builds more confidence. Yes. And you go after the biggest or a bigger win and it builds more confidence and, you know, building wisdom and experience

and succeeding and failing, and it's just a big confidence booster across life. Yeah. And my intent and strategy with content is I want people to experience that. I want people to realize that there's no ceiling. There's no cap. You can do whatever you want to do. You are in complete control.

You're in the driver's seat. So with that message that I share, we then host a lot of in real life events. That's awesome. So we'll do athletic clubs. We'll do them in Austin. We are in Nashville this year, California, New York, all over the place. It's Miami. And the people that come to those events have followed the content, obviously.

So it's a very like-minded group of people who want to get after it. And they don't have a ceiling or a cap. They don't think they can break past. It's all these people sharing this mission and message. That's been super powerful, but also extremely fulfilling to experience. I love that. That's amazing. Yeah.

That's super nice. And for everyone to get together, create friendships and to like push each other and then have contacts. I think especially like now post-pandemic, I think a lot of people are still living almost like the pandemic still and they're isolated. They're not hanging out with other people. So to be able to get out and then have these contacts where they can call them and just have some communicate with is super important. It's been great to be a part of. So I'd love to talk about the evolution of your training journey. I know you were a wrestler in high school.

then you got into kettlebell training for a while. But what I really want to talk about is your experience at West Side Barbell. Yeah. You know, going from wrestling to kettlebell work to barbell work, from where I understand, you actually trained at West Side Barbell under Louis Simmons for four months. Correct. What was that experience like? Man, that was one of the greatest experiences of my life.

I just got to go back to West Side a few months ago and hang out and go on their podcast. and sort of retell my story. For anyone who doesn't know, can you explain what Westside is in their philosophy around training? Yeah, so Westside is literally the strongest gym in the world. It's to give you some insight when I went there, aside from me, their weakest lifter squatted 800 pounds. That was their chump. So, like, it's a historically powerlifting gym. and I say historically because now they're shifting years,

but under Louis, powerlifting gym, the strongest power lifters in the history of the world, Louis really brought to the States and popularized conjugate periodization, which is a, you know, you have linear periodization, you have undulating periodization, you have different periodization models. Conjugated periodization is a way of essentially

being able to stay at peak performance year-round as opposed to going through block periodization or different times in which you specialize, in something, it's trying to figure out how to stay in peak performance year round. So that's what Louis really popularized. It's a blood and shock gym. Like, it's in an industrial park.

You wouldn't know unless you told where to go. Has it been in the same spot the whole time? No, so it's changed throughout the years. It's been in the same spot since I was there, but before I was there, there had been several different locations, like all the way from, like, Louis' basement to different garages, and now it's in an industrial park. But it's not like there's a big sign on the door,

or like Westside Barbell, it's like you only go if you're invited and if you know where it is. It's an invite-only gym so like people can't just show up. So basically, I was in my dorm at University of Delaware. I had basically after high school, I took a year off. I lived in Israel for a year. Volunteered with Holocaust survivors and just traveled for the year. It was amazing. I was about to join the Israeli defense forces and my mom said she would fucking kill me.

So I came back to the States, went to school. And I hated it. So I was writing my website. I hadn't started my website yet, but I was watching a lot of videos and a lot of fitness stuff, whether it was Martin Burke and Lyle MacDonald, Louis Simmons, whatever it was.

And Louis just hypnotized me. I just fell in love with it. I was watching his YouTube videos. I was obsessed. So from my dorm room, I wrote him an email, and I said, listen, I'll take the trash out, I'll clean the floors. He had some pit bulls.

I was like, I'll walk your dogs. just let me come and learn from you and train from you. You just wanted to learn. That's it. Yeah. I just wanted to learn. And the gym's in Columbus, Ohio. And I didn't expect to hear back, but I was like, I might as well shoot my shot.

So I get an email back from Louis, and I lose my shit. And basically, he says, hey, Jordan, Louis here. I have all these emails still. Our weakest guy squats 800 pounds. What do you have to offer? That was the email. And I couldn't believe it. And so I'm 21 at this time.

Filled with ego and ignorance. And basically I was like, all right, I have two options. Number one, I can be very polite and say, oh, hey, Mr. Simmons, thank you so much for replying. Or, you know, Louis, he's a bad ass dude. Like, he's a crazy, crazy guy. He was deadlifting over 700 pounds into his 70s. Like, crazy. That's wild.

Insane. So I went the... bravado, obnoxious route. And I said, I swear to God. I said, I don't give a fuck what you or any of your lifters do. I will outwork every single one of you. And that's what I wrote. And I can't imagine writing that email today and thinking it's a good idea to send that.

Yeah. But I sent it. Like 21 year old me hit send on that email and thought that was a good idea. I didn't hear back. I was like, fuck. I ruined it. I didn't realize I must have at that point in my life had my phone number in my signature on my emails. Because I'm at the dining hall, Penn Cater Dining Hall, University of Delaware.

And I get a call from an unknown number from Ohio. I didn't put two and two together. I ignored it. I have my flip phone. I'm leaving the dining hall with my buddy Kyle. And I see, I have a voicemail. I open it up. I still have a voicemail on my phone to this day.

I'll never delete this. and listen, says, Jordan, there's Louis Simmons from Westside Barbell. I want to talk to you about coming here and training here. I freaked out. And nobody that I was with knew who Louis was. They didn't know what Westside was. I was obsessed with power thing. No one else knew.

So I'm freaking out and they don't understand it. So that pissed me off. I was just angry. I was like, you idiots, you don't get what just happened. So the next day I got on a phone call with Louis for an hour. And he says, I want you to come here in April. and you're going to do a tryout. I'm going to see if you're actually going to work hard.

It's like, cool. So my, me and my very Jewish mother, she's like a tiny, like small, like, you know, sweet Jewish mom who has no idea what she's getting into flies with me to Columbus, Ohio, to West Side Barbell. My mom, again, like, she does not understand what she's about to walk into. This is a blood and shock, the strongest gym in the world.

Many of these litters have been in prison before. or like scary, scary gym. Probably one of the most intimidating gyms you can walk into. The police officer, the cops, don't go anywhere near it. At least they didn't back down. Like, it was scary. Because of the people that were training there? 100%.

So I didn't really tell my mom what we were, she just, oh, I got an internship opportunity at this gym and it's a world famous gym. Oh, that's so sweet, honey. Like, okay, like, can I go? It's like, well, I want to come with you, which is like, what a good mom should do. I was annoyed. I was like, I want to go by myself. But, like, she doesn't want to go with you.

we walk in to west side and she's looking around like what is going on and they're just getting ready for a max effort lower body day we're standing in the entrance and all of a sudden louis walks up to us shirtless blood dripping pouring out of his nose all over his chest he's got tattoos everywhere blood pouring out and he goes you must be jordan and he shakes my hand and my mom looks like she's about to cry and she's like i'm going to go wait in the car so i'm in there with louis and max effort lower day. I was like, all right, what's first? And he's like, all right, you're going to do pin poles from pin three.

I was like, cool, how much weight, how many sets and reps? And he says, go as heavy as possible until it hurts too much. I was like, okay. So I did that. And then I was like, what's next? He said, I'll never forget this one. He said, close stance, low box, SS bar box squats. Which is like the worst variation ever.

I was like, okay, how many sets, how many sets and reps? Like, how much weight? He goes, as heavy as possible until it hurts too much. I did that. It's like, what's next? Weighted glute ham raises. How much weight, how many sets from reps? As heavy as possible until it hurts too much.

For two days straight. So, max effort lower, max effort upper. It was the hardest training of my life. How long were these training sessions? About two hours. Just not like one exercise after the other. And to be fair, this isn't how he structures training to improve performance. This is how he ran the tryout to see if I was actually going to do what I said I was going to do.

Right. And at the end of the two days, he shook my hand and he said, I'll see you over the summer. And that's how I found I got the internship. So my mom, we went to this restaurant called Bob Evans, which is very popular in Ohio. And she pleaded with me not to come back. She was like, I'm so scared. I think they're going to kill you. She was so petrified.

I was like, Mom, I can't not do this. So moved to West Side. I trained there for four months. And my total, my powerlifting total, my squat bench deadlift, increased 300 pounds. that summer. I saw you talking about that. That's insane. Just wild.

Like, unbelievable. And eventually, I didn't do this at West Side, but eventually I ended up deadlifting four times my body weight. I pulled 530 weighing 132 and it's all because of Louie, the training systems and the methodologies and all of that. What contributed to that massive strength gain? Like, how did your diet change? How did the training change?

How was recovery? How often were you training? I'm so curious, like, what that looked like. Yeah, so. At Westside, I was training 11 times a week. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, we train two times a day on those days. So Monday, Wednesday was max effort lower. Wednesday is max effort upper.

Friday is dynamic effort lower and Saturday's dynamic effort upper. So you have four of those sessions. And those are like the main, main session. So max effort, you're just lifting as heavy as possible for different. Four times a week? So two times a week you lift as heavy as possible. Okay. And two times a week, you lift with the goal of being very explosive, very fast.

And this is, I think, what a lot of people massively overlook when it comes to strength development. Because if we look at the equation for force, force equals mass times acceleration. And people forget the acceleration part. And acceleration is equally as important as mass. Most people, when they're trying to get stronger, they only focus on lifting as heavy as they can, the mass side of it. But they don't realize that if they increase the speed at which they can accelerate it, they also increase their force, which sprinters have understood forever. But weightlifters have neglected it dramatically.

And that is the main reason I was able to not only lift so much weight, but specifically lift so much without getting huge. I'm a small guy. I've never wanted to be a bodybuilder or a huge dude, especially come from a wrestling background. Like, I've always just wanted to be strong, like, from my weight. And, like, just be, like, strong from, like, in my weight class. I never wanted to be the biggest because I couldn't be the biggest.

So I wanted to figure out how do I get super strong without getting really? really, really big. What did some of the speed workout stuff look like? So at West Side, lower body is like we split it upper lower, upper lower, or Louis split it upper lower, upper lower. It started off with speed squats. So often we would do like 10 to 12 sets of two reps. And so anywhere between like 50 to 75% one rep max,

depending on your strength level, depending if you were geared or raw, that changed the percentage. as you're using. But the purpose is to use lightweight and be very explosive with it for many, many reasons. But one of the reasons I like the way

it was structured from like the high sets, very few reps, is because anytime you get past, like, rep four, five, six, seven, you're inherently going to get more fatigued. And the goal here is to make sure that you are being as explosive as you possibly can with every single rep.

So doing more sets and fewer reps allows you to not get as fatigued and put as much intent on getting, on being as fast and explosive as you can with every rep. So for squats, it'd be like 10 sets of two. For dynamic effort, deadlifts, for the speed deadlifts, it'd be anywhere from like six to 12 sets of one to three reps. But then there'd also be box jumps, kettlebell swings,

like a lot of explosive, explosive work. So basically you're split between heavy work a couple days and very light explosive work the other days, which was also great because when you reach a certain level of strength, if you're just continually only lifting heavy, it's taxing. get tired, you get burned out, your joints start aching. So I felt like on those explosive days, that's when I could really be athletic.

That's when I could move in different directions. I could focus on being explosive. I wasn't overtaxing my nervous system. I wasn't overtaxing my tendons or my joints. I was actually really able to improve my force development without necessarily needing to overtax my muscles and my tendons and joints. So that was really where I think the genius came into this and helped me tremendously. And for me, I also look at whether it's like gymnasts.

I think gymnasts are a really good example. Gymnists are arguably strongest pound-for-pound athletes in the world. You see these tiny women who are like 90 pounds doing insane shit with strength, but they're not jacked. I think it's partly because they know how to train in a way that doesn't just tax them from a muscular perspective, but a neuromuscular perspective. It gets teaching your brain how to tell your muscles to fire more quickly,

how to get more rapid rate coding, how to get more motor unit recruitment, without necessarily needing to get bigger muscles or to lift super, super heavy. So is that what would control your ability to recover? Because a lot of people hear 11 training sessions a week. Oh, yeah. I didn't explain that.

Oh, this has got to be, after a week, got to be overtrained. Yes. So I completely forgot I said that. So you have the four sessions, the four main ones. Those are the most intense. Then, so that on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, you have four main ones. And then you also come back later in the day for a GPP session, general physical preparedness. So it could be pulling a sled.

It could be just doing some hyper-trophy work if someone wanted to gain some muscle. A little bit like lighter weight, higher repetition, volume work. It could be more just like prehab work or rehabilitation work, whatever it is you're working on. And then on Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday, you had one session. And then again, it was GPP. It could be some zone two work. It could be some just like anything you wanted to do that was not taxing. So the 11 sessions, there were only four of them that were really intense.

only two of them that you were really lifting super, super heavy. I think this would be a really good segue to talk about the difference between, and I know a lot of people have this question because I get it all the time. People think that strength development and muscular development is the same thing, and it works the same system. Yeah. I would love to hear you break down the difference between strength development. Yeah.

How that works in the body, how that affects the body and what's being trained and how that is different from muscular hypertrophy development. Yeah. Yeah, this is, I'm glad you brought that up. I don't know many people who talk about this. I have a number of videos and podcasts about it, but it's something that people are always confused by. And I've always found that when most people hear strength training,

they think of bodybuilders, like Arnold or Ronnie Coleman, whatever it is. And they're like, I don't want to get too strong. Like, no, you want to get strong. You just might not want to get really big. So there are many, many differences. There's also a lot of similarities. There's like a Venn diagram, right? Like there's some things on one side, some things in the other,

and a lot in the middle. but in terms of if we break down, number one, well, muscular development is you're trying to train to get bigger muscles. Whereas strength development is you're trying to teach your muscles how to produce more force. And generally speaking,

a bigger muscle has more potential to produce more force. But just because it's bigger does not mean it actually does produce more force. And I think the easiest example that we can look at is bodybuilders versus power lifters or bodybuilders versus Olympic weightlifters. It's like the people who are the most jacked who have the most muscle are usually not the ones who can display and produce the most force.

So if your goal is to increase muscle size, this is where mechanical tension comes into play and really stressing the individual muscle fibers and trying to get as much recruitment from that muscle as you can. Focusing on mind muscle connection and all that is important, but really getting as much mechanical tension on that muscle as you can. Whereas strength development, this is more. of like a full body and not just body, but also neuromuscular. Your brain plays a huge part in this. It plays a huge role. Another example aside from the gymnasts is we could talk about figure skaters. Figure skaters blow me away and especially paired figure skaters because I don't know

if you ever tried to hold someone over your head on the ground, but it's really fucking hard to hold a human over your head. Never mind, on skates and smiling and going around an entire ice rink while holding someone over your head. It's wild. And they make it look effortless. They make it look like nothing. I'm like, how in the hell is this? And they're not jacked at all. They're very lean, very lean. Often like they look very, very skinny and they're super strong. So there's also the component, not only the neuromuscular component, which I'll talk about in a second, but also there's the skill component. And strength, I think people massively underlook or overlook the aspect that strength is a

skill. So whatever it is you're trying to get better at, whether it's snatches or deadlifts or holding a human over your head while you're ice skating, whatever it is your doing. That is a skill set in of itself and just practicing that skill set will allow you to get stronger in that skill set. Without even necessarily getting your muscles to produce more force, just becoming more efficient at that will essentially allow you to display more strength and be stronger as a result of it. We see this in martial arts. We see literally everything, everything in life. the more you do it, the better you get at that skill. Strength is a skill.

From the neuromuscular perspective, this is where learning that it's not just about how much weight you can lift. It's teaching your body to produce more force, more quickly, or more rate of force development. So this is why we can see people who maybe they can deadlift a lot, but their jump sucks. They can't jump at all. And that, to me, tells me they can produce a lot of force, but it takes a lot of time for that force to be produced. It might take them five, seven seconds to reach maximum force output. But if you have a football player, for example, or a sprinter, they don't have that much time. They need to be able to produce more force more quickly.

They need to be able to from the moment their foot hits the ground to the moment they're actually moving forward at very explosively. They need to be fast. That's why they have the 40-yard dash in the combine. That's why it's important to not just be strong, but to be able to display that strength as quickly as you can. And this comes from speedwork, from dynamic effort training, whether it's box jumps, speed, deadlift, speed squats, kettlebell swings, broad jumps are one of my favorite movements of all time, being able to teach your body to not just display strength,

but display strength quickly. So is strength in hypertrophy working different muscle fibers, or is it more so that strength is tapping in these motor pathways? It's like they're in there just sinking together for force. It's still a muscle. You're still working the same muscle fibers. I think it's more about just how quickly your brain is telling those muscle fibers to fire. We can even see if you have two people who can deadlift 700 pounds, and one of those people,

it takes them 12 seconds to finish that lift. It's a grinder. It's like a grinding lift. And for another one, it takes them like three and a half seconds to finish that lift. They both produced the same amount of force. They both lifted 700 pounds, but one of them was able to do it more quickly. And it's not like they were activating different muscle fibers. It was just one is more efficient at being able to say,

their brain telling their motor units, their muscle fibers to fire more quickly. And that is one of the major differences between good athletes and great athletes is how quickly they can tell things to fire. It's the speed that they can get things done. So my best deadlift ever is 700 pounds. Oh, that's amazing. I pulled it with straps.

Okay. On a deadlift bar. Okay. This was 2017. Okay. Texas deadlift bar? Texas deadlift bar. Okay.

It's a great bar. I was right when I transitioned. So I left the military, 2017, and I said, I'm never running a day in my life again. We see how that played out. Yeah. And I just went all in on strength training, and I just wanted to get as strong as possible. Primarily, I wanted my deadlift to get to be 700 pounds. Yeah.

And my training matched that, that style. I was training really heavy, very frequently. I was deadlifting a lot. I was doing speed work. I was going for a lot of max efforts. And I saw my deadlift jumping, like wild. I mean, it went in front of like 550 to 575 to 600 to 625. Jeez.

It just kept going. But I was putting so much work in. I was eating a lot of food and I was training a lot. And I hit 700 pounds and it was like one of the best feelings of my entire life. Energy was so high. My gym was actually the day that we opened our gym. That's amazing. We had to open the public.

So like I was riding high. And after that, my, my gym was. My training changed. I got into running, more bodybuilding, and now my training is more so in terms of resistance training. It's more hypertrophy focused. Okay. I'm going after more muscular development and just a bodybuilding style of training.

I don't train as heavy as I used to. Yeah. There's no way right now I'm getting even close to 700 pounds because I don't train those systems anywhere. Exactly. Those neurons are just not firing with that ability to produce that level of force production. Yeah. Now I'm sure I can get back to it.

it. Yep. But it would require different style of training. Exactly. You look at some of these professional bodybuilders who are massive and you would assume they're the strongest men on earth, but they're not. They look a lot different and they lift a lot different type and load of weight compared to these elite power lifters or strong men.

Yes. You know, I think that's a really like good way to look at that. But I've experienced that, you know, personally training specifically and specialized for strength as opposed to muscular development. Yes. Yeah. And arguably, you could go back and potentially even be stronger because, again, like, generally speaking, a bigger muscle has that potential to be stronger, but you would need to

change your entire style of training and then use that exercise that you've gained to your advantage to then hopefully lift more. But yeah, it's very different. The training style for bodybuilding is very different than the training style for power lifting, which is very different than the training style for Olympic lifting, which is very different. It's like individual and not only different sports, but then you get within team sports, for example, different positions need very different styles of training

in order to like sprinters and marathoners, like they're both running, but they need very different styles of training. Right. So when you left West Side after being there for four months, when you left, were you still implementing that style of training? Were you still training just as heavy? Oh, yeah.

And I started the powerlifting team at the University of Delaware. with two friends, Nick Bousson and Joe Reteni, and we were running a Westside system at University of Delaware. We were doing morning sessions, afternoon sessions. We literally ran West Side at the University of Delaware. We got SS bars. We got Cambered bars. Like, we went all out.

We wanted to run Westside at University of Delaware. And it was, that's what made school tolerable for me, was having that team of men and women. By the end of it, like when I left, a girl was a captain of the palisthen team. And that, like having that group of people who just wanted to lift as heavy as they could and get super strong, we would compete together, we would go to competitions. Yeah, we were, I was lifting in the morning and coaching the morning session,

but then I would also go back for the afternoon session and coach the afternoon session. So I was there all day and the gym staff hated me because we would take up the squat racks and we would just be there all day. I started really getting into fitness 2009, 2010, when I started going to school. Yeah. And then by the time I was graduating, I was just obsessed with bodybuilding. I did my first bodybuilding competition in college. Okay.

Had no clue what I was doing, but that's how I was introduced to flexible dieting and tracking macros and manipulating body composition with nutrition. Because believe it or not, like going to school for nutrition, I'm sure you know, but going to school for nutrition, they're not worried about nutrition in terms of body composition changes and sports performance. It was disease intervention. Right. Primarily cardiovascular disease and diabetes at the time.

But all I cared about was going to gym. So my whole day would be planned. I was just telling some of these guys about this time of my life a few days ago where I would have my pre-workout meal timed up with my pre-workout with the gym training session. I would skip class a lot in college. You go to the gym. But, like, everything had to be at specific times. So I'd be in a middle of a test in a class.

And it's like, hey, it's 90 minutes out for my training session. I'm pulling out on my pre-workout meal, which was, like, I'd do overnight oats with protein powder. Yeah. And I'd consume that. And then when, like, 30 minutes left of class being over, I'd start sipping on my pre-workout. And I'm watching, like, these old Jay Cutler and Ronnie Coleman did 15 videos underneath my seat. But all I cared about was getting to the gym and getting bigger and getting stronger. And it was such a fun time of life.

It was such a fun time of training. Yeah. Because the reality is there weren't that many other responsibilities that I hadn't care about. It was just get big, get strong, eat a lot of food, and enjoy the process. Nothing was more important than lifting. Like, nothing. I didn't miss a training session for five years. Like, this is the most important thing in my life right now.

And it was amazing. So at what point then did you start transitioning away from? that level of intensity of powerlifting and moving on to other things. As soon as I literally, so I was competing at Revolution Powerlifting Systems, I pulled four times my body weight, I put the bar down, that was my goal for like almost a decade

to deadlift four times my body weight. I put the bar down, and in my head I was like, I'm fucking done. Like, that was it. I was like, that, you're not supposed to lift that much weight. It's not good for you. Like, I was tired, burned out, my back hurt.

Like, it wasn't great. So I was like, and I had started to lose the passion for a powerlifting at that time. I wasn't as excited about it as I had been. So I put the bar down. And I actually really wanted to start getting back more into martial arts and to jujitsu and all of that. So I stopped that and I hired a guy named Mike Perry. He actually runs a gym. Ironically enough, it's called Skill of Strength because Strength is a skill.

And he works with a lot of UFC fighters. He works with Rob Font. He grew up in Massachusetts like me or he lives in Massachusetts like me. I was like, I want you to write my programs. I want to do more like fighting style training. And so I hired him and I learned a lot from him. And I actually started Jiu-Jitsu at that point in my life very briefly. I went to Kenny Floreen's gym.

There's an amazing grappler and an incredible mixed martial arts fighter. And I went in there thinking like, okay, I'm going to be really good. I'm like super strong. And I have a wrestling background. And I'll never forget, I walked in this gym my first day. I've never done Jiu-Gitzy before. and I see the guy teaching the class is like a chubby dude

like he's a bigger dude and he doesn't look athletic at all and I'm like I'm gonna fuck this guy up and he like eloquently destroyed me he didn't breathe heavy he didn't try hard he just fucking embarrassed me

just without trying and I was like oh my God I need to learn this but I was also still like really trying to work hard and build my business and my business was like the number one thing to me. And I got really worried at this time because up to that point, powerlifting was how I built my business. I had started to build an audience and a following and I was starting to get close to maxing about

maxing out my one-on-one coaching. And people were coming to me for powerlifting and specifically I got, I started to make a name for myself in powerlifting right as women really started to join powerlifting. And it was interesting because I'm a small dude, five foot four. I was competing at 132. I wasn't jacked. So a lot of women coming in a power up thing were like, well, I want to be strong, but I don't want to be big.

And this guy is strong and not big. So they would hire me because that's what they wanted. So I got really worried being like, well, if I don't power lift, then how is my business going to do? Because I thought people were coming to me just because I powerlifted it. And I later realized they were coming to me because they trusted me. And it wasn't because I was a power lift. because they just trusted my information.

I think a lot of people struggle with that type of identifying with something. Yes. I talked to Lewis Howes a few months ago about this. And I brought this up many times on this podcast because it's resonated with me so much. And he called it identity foreclosure. You identify with this one thing or lifestyle or desire or job position title for so long that by the time you have owned that, everyone knows you for. that and you don't want to do it anymore it is really hard to transition away correct and there's

a fear of transition away because that is your identity yes and to foreclose that identity is very difficult that's exactly right and you know the fitness industry is very cult like it's like you're they're a power lifter or you're a bodybuilder or people put what diet they follow in their bio on Instagram like that's how I attach they are to that identity it's wild it's like I do keto or I'm a I'm plant based it's like that's in your body Like that's how important that is to your identity, which if any research comes out that could potentially change their mind, they would then discard it because it's it's going against everything that they've put into their identity. But that's what I had done. Like I was a powerlifter.

And so I was really worried to stop powerlifting for myself because I had, you know, I didn't want to let Louie down. I didn't want to let myself down. That's what I had like built myself up as. But fortunately, I was aware enough to be like, this isn't right for. me. I don't love it anymore. And I've been good in my life where like if I'm not passionate about something, then I'm not going to do it. I'm going to find something I am passionate about. And so at that point in my life, it was my business. Like that was my main passion. So I actually, I stopped doing jujitsu at that time. I only went a few times, got my ass kicked. I was like,

just not worth it. Just focus on my business. And that's what I did. I focused on my business for the next, I know, that was 2015. So I really went hard from like 2015 until, 20, 2021 is like when I was like going nuts with my business. And then after that, then I, you know, got married, had a kid and things really changed perspective-wise for that. But yeah, that was, that was the big transition from powerlifting to then more just doing what I needed to do for my health and like not trying to be an elite athlete for the first time in my life. I just wanted to work out for health.

And that was a big shake to the ego. Do you find yourself working with more athletes right now or more general pop health wellness individuals? As right now, it's almost entirely general population people, just moms and dads and regular everyday people. Like, it's funny, like I've got everyone from 18 year olds up to 85 year olds in my membership. And men and women from all walks of life, that was always my favorite to train. And when I trained in person for many years, my favorite was training like everyday people. When I was younger, I thought that I would want to train athletes. And then I, you know, I trained at Cressy Performance for a while.

I was able to work with some of the best baseball players in the world. And I've worked with some athletes before. And I still do some one-on-one coaching with, especially jujitsu athletes right now. And I'm going to be moving into that in the near future. But sometimes working with athletes sucks. Like, it's what I've realized is, number one, especially when you're working with an athlete who is a professional athlete and a highly paid professional athlete, is incredibly nerve-wracking to train them because you're working with a multi-million

dollar athlete, and if something happens while you're training them, you are fucked. And they could be fucked. And the responsibility is just outrageous. Not to mention sometimes managers and coaches are breathing down your throat. It's just like it's not as fun. And also, and not all athletes, but I've noticed this with a fair amount of professional athletes, a lot of them are professional athletes because they were born to be a professional athlete. They are freaks of nature.

And they don't enjoy the training and they don't really work as hard. I have yet to find people work as hard as just regular everyday people who fucking love training. And they go in and they work hard, especially like the majority of my clients are women, like moms, and they go in and they put in work. And I love it. And they have fun and they enjoy it. they like to get their stress out. It's like that for me is I want to be with people who love training.

And sometimes I found elite, elite athletes, professional athletes, they've lost the love for it. And it's more of a job. Yeah, it's interesting because I've had a lot of conversations with professional athletes as well. And you have the outliers, like the Tom Brady's who dedicate their entire life to like everything they put in their body tracking every minute of sleep and performance. Yeah. But majority of athletes that I've talked about or talk to. they are driven based off of pure talent. Yeah.

And people have told me, like, pre-game meal was McDonald's and the league of the game, and they're skipping workouts to go party afterwards. Yes. Smoking weed before competition. Like, crazy. I'm always surprised to hear that. Yeah.

But there are the outliers, and the outliers are the ones that get, you know, the attention. But I found that so wildly interesting. Yeah, it is. It is. And that's so, I mean, and I, I'm moving into now where I'm always going to keep my inner circle

but I also now would like to work with more Jiu Jitsu athletes as well. So I have some projects that I'm excited about that I'm going to work with Jujitsu athletes but even then I don't think it's going to be the highest level of Jiu-Sit-Sathletes. I think it's going to be people who are hobbyists and they just enjoy it and they just want to get into it

because they want to try something new. But I've always enjoyed more just the general population people who like working out or doing whatever just because it brings it makes their life better, not because their paycheck is dependent on it and not because they were a naturally gifted athlete. Not to say they didn't work hard, but when that becomes your job, I think it's very difficult to maintain the passion for it that you had at the beginning.

So for the general population people, and it's not their job, like, that is their escape. They work so hard. And I love working with those people. Yeah, it's just straight passion. Yeah. And what's nice, too, is there's flexibility in the way you approach nutrition and training. Like, I am a person that loves experimenting on myself. Yeah.

Or, you know, I'll try different foods and see how they impact my gut and my bowel movements and, like, my mental clarity and my health. Or I'll try different styles of training. I'll set new goals. Like, in this past year, I've set a goal of a bodybuilding competition, which I did. Now I'm going to an ultra in September. Then I'm doing a marathon after that. So it's just like, it's driven by passion. And I'm not stuck to this one way or something.

thing, but I am curious, you know, working with more general pop, what are some of the common issues you're trying to solve or protocols you're implementing to help them achieve and reach their goals? The number one struggle is consistency, right? And this isn't for the people who are obsessed with it. This is for just general pop people who maybe they don't like working out. Maybe they know they need to. They know they need to eat better.

They know they need to exercise, but they struggle with being consistent. That for me is so I actually, I started with exercise science when I went to school and I quickly realized I was like this is just not what I want to do because the teachers were awful. The curriculum was awful. I had already been coaching people since I was like 14 years old. And so I switched to behavioral health psychology because I was like, I've coached people for years already. And I know I could have the perfect program written, the perfect nutrition plan. But if they don't follow it, it doesn't matter. And I've always thought that a B program followed consistently,

will always yield better results than an A-plus program followed inconsistently. So I've been trying to figure out how do you solve the consistency problem. And so there are different reasons why someone may or may not be consistent. But I think the biggest reason people

will start and then quit is usually because they think that they've failed as soon as they make a mistake. As soon as they, oh my God, I had one bad food or I missed one workout, they chalked that up as, oh, I've failed.

Like, I've ruined my progress. People say this all the time. Literally someone just messaged me yesterday. Hey, I'm going on a vacation to Europe for a few weeks. I'm really worried about ruining my progress. I was like, listen, number one, in any three week period of time, have you ever made, had been so consistent with your training and nutrition in three weeks that you've completely changed your body?

No. Same thing in reverse. You're not going to lose it all in three weeks. Not to mention, imagine you're 90 years old, looking back on your life. and you think back to this year of vacation. And when you're 90, are you going to look back and say, oh, wow, I am so glad that I kept perfect track of my macros. And then I got all of my workouts in during that trip.

Or are you going to look back and say, wow, I can't believe that I, like, didn't enjoy myself, that I didn't enjoy those foods, that I didn't, like, just take a break for a few weeks. Like, which one are you going to be more likely to say when you're 90 years old? And so giving people this perspective. But for me, when people say, oh, my God, I ruined all my progress. And then they quit. Then Al JL users, like, listen, if you got a flat tire on the highway, you wouldn't get out of your car and slash the other three.

You'd figure out of way to fix that fucking tire and keep going forward. And so the biggest struggle that I see people having is this consistency and getting them to realize one bad day or one bad meal or one bad month. I mean, dude, people spend their whole life not working out. 30, 40, 50, 60 years. They're super overweight, out of shape, very unhealthy. And out of nowhere, they make a change. And after 60 years of not paying attention to their health,

they lose 100 pounds and completely change their life. And you're going to tell me that because you had one fucking bad meal or one bad week or one bad month that all of a sudden, like, you've failed? That's outrageously stupid. So it's helping, that for me is like my biggest passion with trying to help regular people, like everyday GenPop people, just be healthier for themselves, for their families,

for their friends, for their communities. It's like, how can we get you to be consistent, not because you need to suffer through this, but just because this is important for you to stay alive and be healthy for a long time. I saw you talking about this on a post recently, mentioning that sometimes the optimal way to do something is not the most effective way

for an individual to do that one thing. Makes me think of my training sometimes. I know there's optimal ways for me to train. Yeah. Sometimes it's running less than I'm actually running. Sometimes it's running easier than I'm running. sometimes it's doing a exercise in the gym

with more discipline and better form but I like lifting that way and I like running this way and even if it is the B way to do it compared to the A it is the way that I'm going to do it consistently over time

and I'm going to enjoy it and I'm going to love it and I'm going to keep doing it exactly doing it the most optimal way optimal is the way that robots perform and act and I think there's ways to optimize things that we're doing. But I love when you say that, like sometimes the B option might be the more consistent way that you're going to stick to.

Yeah. And it's the best one for you. And I've always leaned into that because I don't want to be a robot. I'm not a robot. Exactly. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I think a lot of people, it has to be perfect.

People always ask that I'm very interested in how people phrase things. And that's a lot of how my content has created. Like, well, what are people saying and how are they saying it? And people, what's the best diet? What's the best workout? What's the best this? The best that I'm like, stop looking for the fucking best. Just do something.

Like, because the reality is everything works as long as you're consistent with it. That's really it. So, I mean, even in business, well, what's the best business model? I don't know. A business model that feels really good to you that you can do for 20 years, at least. It's like the best one that is going to help you allow it to feel proud of your business, the one that's going to help you want to tell people about your business. It's going to want you to post about your business.

That's going to want to encourage other people. The best business model is the one that you can stick to. Same thing with fitness plans. I think it's nutrition, workouts, all of it is what can you stick to and enjoy the most? Yeah. And workouts are tough because a lot of coaches, they'll say things like, well, you just got to find the workout you love. And I used to say this, so I'm guilty of this.

But I'd say in the last three to five years, I've realized pretty clearly that there are some people who will never love working out, ever. And that doesn't mean that they shouldn't work out. That just means they've got to fucking do it. And they've got to find the one they hate the least. And that's why I'm such a huge proponent of just walking, just getting outside.

Like, that's like the number one thing I recommend. Yeah, I understand. You talk a lot about that. Constantly. It's like no one's ever felt worse after going on a walk, ever. And it's the easiest, most readily available, underrated, most effective form of exercise. And if we're really going to look at the research around people who live the longest lives,

It's not people who are, it's not power lifters. It's not entrepreneurs grinding 100 hours a week. It's generally people who are more relaxed, live overall healthy lives and they walk the most. That's really it. Have you started walking more since having a baby? All the time. Yeah, we walk so much now. All the time.

I love it. It's great. It's time to put the phone down, speak with my wife, play with my daughter. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. My steps are significantly higher. Yeah. Because, and I want to talk about, you know, how becoming a father has changed your life.

It's changed mine for sure in this past year. But our morning routine is I'll wake up, I'll go run. And while I'm running, my daughter typically wakes up. So my wife gets her ready. And then as soon as I get back, I eat breakfast. I take over dad duty. My wife goes and works out in the garage gym. Okay.

And I take Charlie for a walk. And I'll get a bunch of steps in there. And then after dinner in the evening, we'll typically. Typically, when it's not 110 degrees here in central Texas, we'll go for a walk after dinner. And especially if I eat a big dinner, just going for a 10, 20 minute walk, I feel so much better afterwards. 100%. Yeah, same. So becoming a dad, I think you said your daughter is now 11 months?

Yeah, 11 months in a couple weeks. Yeah. Okay. How has that changed your life, your priorities, but specifically the way that you train in your fitness, if it has it all? It's fine. I mean, every step along the way throughout my life, there's, oh, well, people always say, it's the line, well, just wait until,

just wait until, it's the, like, the three words, just wait until this happens, then that'll change. For my whole life on different situations. And before kids, it was like, just wait until they have kids, you're not going to want to work out. It's like, it's made me want to work out more.

And it's made me want to make sure I'm more consistent with my training of my nutrition, not less. At the beginning, especially the first five weeks, were brutal with sleep, it didn't cause me to not work out. It just, I shifted my schedules

that I was working out really late at night. I was doing the late night feedings at like one or two in the morning when my daughter was a newborn. And so since I didn't want to go to sleep before that because it would be really difficult to wake up, I just started working out at like 10, 11 or midnight. And like, that's what I did.

There was no other time throughout the day that I was going to be able to make it happen. And I knew if I just went to bed in a normal time, then I would be exhausted for that feeding. So, like, listen, I'm going to have to sacrifice sleep no matter what in this situation. Like, that's just part of having a newborn. So I'll work out really late at night. And it was very difficult.

And the performance was not nearly as good as it would have been otherwise, but I still got it in. And now that she's sleeping much better and, you know, she's, it's great. I've shifted my time so now I can work out a different time. But nothing's changed. It's like still the exact same. If anything else, it's just I'm more motivated now. because, like, the idea of not being around to see her grow is petrifying. That's, like, my biggest fear is not being around to watch her grow, God willing, have more kids.

Like, it's like the, I'm going to cry thinking about it. It's like the worst thing in the world that I, so I, everything, I just want to work out and eat better and be around so I can experience her life. When we were getting ready to have our daughter, people said the same thing. Just wait. Just wait. Yeah. And me and my wife would get so pissed. As soon as, you know, we would start talking about, yeah, we're six weeks away from our due date.

And someone hears that they lean in, oh, I got three kids. Let me tell you. No, no, please don't. So something I started saying around that time was, if it matters to you, you will make time. Yeah. And that connected with a lot of my audience. We put it on a T-shirt, actually. I love that.

And it really resonated because. Because what I learned and, you know, through this whole process in this past year, becoming a dad, I really didn't miss any training sessions. Like my training didn't change. Yeah. But what I learned is that before having a kid, I had very rigid routines. And I stuck to those routines and I wouldn't break those routines for anyone, anyone or anything. Because those routines worked for me for a long period of time. And as I was talking to you before we started recording this.

podcast, that transition of going from being able to be more selfish to having to be more selfless in terms of my time with my family, it was a transition. It was difficult for me. But I went from focusing on routines to focusing on responsibilities. When I focus on responsibilities and I prioritize that, my routines could shift and now I have three to five different routines that work for my day in terms of working out and training, but responsibilities come first, and then I kind of just plug and play. And I've always been a fan of backwards planning.

And I learned this in the military where, you know, me and my wife the night before the next day, we'll sit down and we'll talk about the day coming up. Yeah. And then I'm like, okay, well, if I have to be at work at nine, that means by 8.30, I have to leave. And by 8, you have to be coming in from your workout. I'll just back it up. And if I have to wake up at 3 a.m. and go for a run or go train.

Yeah. That's what I'm going to do because it matters to me, so I'm going to make time. Exactly. Yeah, I love that. That makes total sense. Yeah, I'm with you 100%. And how do you kind of, how do you expect or want to teach your kids about nutrition and training? How are you going to expose them to that?

This is a very common question, especially because I have a girl, a lot of my, most of my clients are women. And especially around the relationship with food concept. I'll say from the beginning, like the first sport I'm going to get her into is gymnastics. That's like number one. So I started gymnastics when I was two. I think it was probably one of the best things my mom ever did for me, especially because when you look at research around athletics

and maintaining athleticism, the exposure early on, even if someone does something when they're really young, then they take 20 years off, they can get it back much more quickly than someone who's never done it before. So gymnastics, I think, is the, the best place to begin

from an athletic development perspective not just strength but coordination hand-eye coordination balance mobility all of that whether or not she wants to compete I don't care but just as like also community meeting people so starting off with gymnastics definitely at soon probably around like five or six get her into jiu-jitsu as well I'm sure she'll be

because we're going to have mats in the house and I'm sure she'll be training with me like just for fun but like start doing classes and stuff probably around maybe four or five, six for jiu-jitsu, wrestling. I want her to be exposed to all of it. And then anything else, like, there'll also be, like, theater and piano lessons. And, I don't know, debate club. These are all things that I'd love to get her involved in.

But from an athletic perspective, gymnastics, jiu-jitsu, wrestling, if at any point, she's like, the rule of my mom had, which I thought was a very good rule is, if you start a season, you have to finish the season. If you want to quit the sport, you have to wait until the season's over. I like that. So it was like, you can't just like get halfway through and be like, no, I'm done. So if she wants to try something, great, but she's got to finish the season through, whether it's dance or debate, whatever it is.

In terms of nutrition, this is something that I think is going to be much more individual based on the child. One thing that, you know, I only have one, and she's not even a year yet. So I'm sort of speaking out of my ass. But what I've learned with working a lot of different people, I've worked with whole families. and everyone knows, like, just because you're from a family doesn't mean everyone's the same. You have very different people in the family. And so people would ask, how are you going to discipline your kids? Like, I don't know, I'll discipline them based on, like, that child, like what that child needs.

It's not like I have one disciplining system. So from a nutrition perspective, I think it will really depend on what she's like. Like, what foods does she want? What foods doesn't she want? Like, what is she being influenced by? Like, what thoughts does she have on her own regardless of what I'm saying or her mom is or any of that stuff. The main thing is going to be, I think one of the main issues people have with nutrition,

especially from young kids, is when they think they have to take things out. And it's like, you can't have this, you can't have that. Rather than the removing side of nutrition, it's going to be a lot about adding. Well, how about we have more of this? Let's make sure we have more fruits and vegetables, more proteins, more foods that are just like minimally processed, just adding more and more and more. And if you want to have the other stuff, we can, but we got to make sure it's in appropriate portions.

But I think just having them more as opposed to taking away is probably a good mindset to have. Yeah, right now, the last couple months, we've been, we just give our daughter what we're eating for dinner. Yeah. I mean, just chop it up real small. Like last night she had sweet potato, asparagus, and salmon. Yeah, it's perfect.

For dinner, there's some carry gold on that sweet potato. But I had an eye-opening experience during this last bodybuilding prep. So I started the bodybuilding prep in December of 2022. The bodybuilding show I did was the end of March, 2003. So I guess when, you know, in the middle of that, she was around six months old. So everything she watched me do and experience, she's still probably too young to remember. But we were at dinner. We were at a Mexican restaurant.

I was in the middle of prep. And I was being so just precise with everything. But we were going out to dinner with some friends. And I was like, I'll make it work. I'm not going to bring a Tupperware of chicken and rice. Yeah, yeah. So I was talking to the waiter. I was ordering my food.

I was asking if there's anything that comes on the chicken. Is it marinated? Is there an oil? And we're having this conversation back and forth. He's like, yeah, there's an oil that we marinated the chicken in overnight. Oh. So I asked, well, can you wash the chicken? Can you wash the, can you wash the marinade off the chicken before you put it on the grill?

My wife's looking at me like, are you freaking kidding me right now? But, you know, when you're in prep, like, you're so, like, you're obsessed, obsessed with the whole process. So they say they're going to wash this chicken for me. It comes out on, like, a separate, separate plate with, like, my rice and beans on the side. And I'm already stressing out because I can tell the marinade wasn't washed off of chicken. I can see it. I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to eat this, whatever.

And I look over where my daughter is just there kind of just, sort of. staring at me. Yeah. And I'm thinking, wow. I got home that night and I got in the sauna. And as I was in the sauna thinking about that dinner and my daughter seeing that, I thought, this is how I'm going to create unhealthy relationships with food with her if I keep doing this. Yeah, that's right.

That was such a huge eye opener for me where I said, this is not the way I should be acting, can be acting in front of her. Yeah. And that's where I really went in this whole kind of spin. and I produce a lot of content around this topic during that time about training for performance rather than aesthetics. Yeah. Yep. And just like the focus on healthy relationships with food and food choices and how that influences the people around you.

But that was an epiphany that I had during that moment of, wow, like I can't do this when she's two, three, four, five years old. It's so great that you had that experience when she was still like too young to just to have her like looking at you and you're, be like, oh my God, this could be really bad at this progresses. So, I mean, what a blessing that happened then and not like when she's 12. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'm grateful that I was able to experience it then. Yeah.

I got on you for recognizing it at that point rather than being like, this is just what I have to do. And like, this is it. Yeah, I left that experience at dinner just thinking, this is stupid. Yeah. Like, what am I doing? Yeah. Obsessing over the wrong things where I have like my newborn child right next to me. Right.

Yeah. Well, Jordan, I appreciate this, man. the conversation's being great you're a great follow on social thank you man thank you you bring a lot of experience a lot of credibility um the last thing i'll kind of lead off with is or end on i was on my run this morning and i was thinking about this and i kept thinking about like the potential that people can achieve or become because i'm writing a book right now so like oh my morning runs i'm thinking of all these things i'm writing them down yeah and i I was thinking of this concept that anyone can be a superhero, but they have to choose,

or they have the opportunity to choose their superpowers. And everyone thinks of, you know, a superhero in terms of like these physical feats. You can either fly or create fire out of your hand or you can shoot a web out of your wrist, for example. But like there's these characteristic traits that you can choose to be superpowers that can change the trajectory of your life. And I thought of these three and it was self-accountability, consistency and curiosity.

We've kind of talked about all three of those today. But as I was thinking about that on my run this morning and then thinking about this discussion we were going to have today and just looking back a lot of your content, it seems that a lot of the things that you've learned and the wisdom you've gained in this space is because of a pure interest of curiosity and how the body works, how nutrition works,

how to get stronger and more fit and help people. So I think those three things can be a superpower Yeah for a superhero and I guess you're a superhero in the fitness space I appreciate that man that means a lot thank you and like I admire you a ton it's been a pleasure coming on I would I'm gonna add one more to that list and I thought you were going I was like what would your like if you were a superhero like what would you have like what could you give other people like if you were a superhero that could give people a certain characteristic trait I was like I was like if you were a superhero that could give people a certain characteristic trait I was like I was thinking about that as you were saying it. And all of those, and the only one that I would add is just, is trying to figure out the best way to phrase it. I want to say confidence, but more than confidence is just the knowledge that as long as you don't quit, you're going to be better off.

Like as long as you don't quit, you will succeed. It's just a matter of time. Perseverance. That's it. Perseverance is better. Yeah, exactly. People are so quick to quit to call it, think it's not working and then be done. I think if you could just, because I've had so much, and you know, any business owner, any athlete, whatever, you have more failures than you have successes.

People watching, they really only pay attention to the successes. Even if you are honest about your failures, they don't really see them. They'll see the successes because they often get envious over them and then jealous about it. But they don't really understand how debilitating the losses can be and how frequent the losses and the failures are. Infinitely, more failures than successes. but it's just because you haven't quit that you succeed. So I think if you can add all of that, if you add that on top of it,

it's really, that's the winning recipe for life in general. Yeah, I agree with that. But Jordan, I appreciate it. Thanks for the time. Thank you, brother. And we'll talk to the end.