The Nick Bare Podcast - 039: The Soul of an Ultrarunner: Uncovering Life's Deeper Purpose with Sally McRae

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

Today I'm sitting down for a conversation with legendary ultrarunner Sally McRae, winner of this year's Moab 240. Sally shared valuable wisdom, taking us through the highs and lows of her inspiring journey to becoming a champion ultrarunner. We covered everything from her mental and emotional strategies for overcoming the most challenging moments on the trail, revealing her core values as a mom, and maintaining our authentic self in a world that pushes us to conform. Enjoy! Save 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio Follow for more:  IG: https://www.instagram.com/nickbarefitness/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@nickbarefitness Keep up with Sally here: IG:https://www.instagram.com/yellowrunner/  YT: https://www.youtube.com/@sallymcraestrength Book: CHOOSE STRONG: The Choice That Changes Everything Topics: 00:00 Intro 1:30 Welcome 4:30 Who you surround yourself with matters 12:08 What really lasts in life 38:38 Sally’s ultra grand slam 45:48 Being a student while training 52:13 The toll 800 miles takes on your body 1:04:15 The bigger picture 1:24:13 What is your identity? 1:31:43 Never lose your authentic self 1:42:10 Pursuing what you want for yourself 1:43:52 Doing everything in love

But I realized at that moment, 38 miles in, I either am going to beat myself up and maybe even throw in the town and be like, dude, this just like not my race, like my stupid feet. Or I'm just going to take ownership and realize like whatever's going on is because of a mistake that I made. And now I'm going to wear that. And I'm going to see how well I can do this race because I don't want to wake up tomorrow morning. and know that I didn't reach my goal because I made a mistake. I need to just own the mistake, take responsibility for it, and do the best with what I have where I can. Before we dive into today's episode,

I want to thank you for tuning in and supporting the brand. Now, I have spent the last decade plus of my life building Bare Performance Nutrition, and we create effective supplements that you can trust to support your wellness, endurance, and performance goals. We offer high-quality, great-tasting, weight protein powders, effective pre-workouts, superfoods, sleep support, electrolytes, and much more. So if you want to support the content that we produce and the message that I am sharing through

my content and on this podcast, I would greatly appreciate it if you went to bpnsups.com, and you can use code Nick Bear 10 to save 10% off your next order. So thank you guys. I appreciate you. And let's dive into the show. Today on the podcast, we have special guest, return guest, Sally McRae. Welcome. Dude, I'm so excited about this podcast.

I've been looking forward to this since we first chatted about it. I think it was in the summer. It was before I think your races kicked off. Maybe it was before the 200s even started. I mean, I was still in Texas at that point. Yeah. But I love our conversations both on and off the mic. I mean, I said it earlier.

I'm like, we probably should have hit record. At dinner last night. At dinner. Last night's conversation was, that was a real raw conversation. I was talking to staff after we left dinner last night. Yeah. And we talked about this briefly at dinner, but, you know, there's certain people you can spend time with. And conversation stays service level the entire time.

Yeah. And like, all right, let's just make it through this. Then there's people that you can sometimes meet instantaneously. and just connect with. And you skip the surface level and you instantly go into deep conversation. And I think it's partly because both parties are willing to be vulnerable and share parts of their life that aren't perfect. And I think your family and my family shares that.

So last night's conversation went very deep, very fast. But it was great as we were cutting into our pork chops and throwing back some sweet potatoes. It was so good. I literally talked to Eddie about the same thing. I love that. Like we drove back to the hotel and I said, I love that Nick feels like he can be so real with me. And I love how comfortable I can be with him and stuff. Because, you know, you and I do some similar stuff. Podcasting. We like to be in the endurance and strength world and putting out content. But I also love so much that we have the same heart about things and maybe not so much tolerance for other things that maybe other people are doing, you know. And, and just challenging, like, what is good and what is real, what's meaningful, you know, like,

what's purposeful. And, man, our conversation last night got me, like, really excited. But I don't feel like I can have those conversations just with anyone. No. You know? And so, I mean, the first time you and I did a podcast was 2021. That was my first time meeting you. It was. And it was like 9 p.m. at night. You rolled in on an Uber in the business park of BPN. And then we dove in the like a two-hour conversation. They got like pretty in the weeds very quickly. It did. Yeah. So I always, I think that's a gift when you can meet people that you're like, wow, you're my people and it's encouraging because then you just, you get fired up when you go back home. You're like, yeah, we're, we're in this. I think it's super important. I mean, as I've gotten older and time, I talk about time

a lot. Time is very valuable to me and how I spend my time and who I spend my time with. And I'm not a point in my life where I want to be very selective with who I'm spending my time with and what I get out of those relationships because I don't want to be spending my time with people if it's just transactional and it's just surface level. And there's nothing there because then there's an opportunity cost of what else could I be doing with that time and that energy? You know, it's interesting because a few months ago, I was doing a lot of research on this, just deep meaningful connections. And I put this survey out on Instagram to kind of just field how people that follow me feel about deep meaningful connections that they have in their life. And I asked this survey, I asked, do you feel like you are part of community?

do you feel like you have friendship and how many deep meaningful relationships do you think that you have in your life? I think that the sliding scale was like zero to two, two to six, six to 12, 12 plus, something like that. And most people chose that second bucket, which was like two to six or around there. that was interesting to show that like one you don't need a million meaningful relationships in your life but you need some tried and true ones that foundational but the response that I received from that survey was very interesting because from the responses it showed that majority of the people had two to six deep meaningful relationships in their life and a lot of people that answered thought that they were going to be the outlier.

They thought that all these people had 12 plus meaningful, deep friends and partners in their life. But in reality, most people only have a handful. And that's okay. Long way of saying, I think it's really important to choose who you allow in your life and where you spend your time and who you spend your time with. Absolutely. We're influenced and affected. by the people we spend the most time with. And having teenagers myself, that is a conversation

that I have had with my kids throughout their life and why it's so important to choose your friends wisely. And why when you find good people in your life, when you understand the people that love you and will stand by you no matter what in your highs and your lows, whether you're successful or you're going through a season of failures, you treat them like gold. And I really, I'd probably fall into that same category. I have a handful of people that I know I can completely trust and depend on and who are allowed to speak into my life, both for constructive criticism, in truth, the sensitive topics, the ones that I know I can go to when I'm going through a hard season.

But I think people long for that too. I think there's people that might feel alone and don't have that community or don't have those people that they can depend on. And yeah, that number, that number isn't shocking as far as only having a handful. I feel like the true and lasting relationships, and I think you and I had even touched on this because when I first met you, we both talked about our moms. And I feel like when you lose people in your life, that becomes even more evident that one, time is precious and life is short. And the people who really matter to you, you want to invest in,

you want to spend time with them. Because I really believe life is so much about our relationships. and so much of what we are learning throughout life that's actually meaningful is based on love. And the people that are closest to us, you know, we love them. And it's an unconditional love. We love them no matter what. And yeah, I think when you're in a position like yourself, Nick, where you do have millions of people following you and looking to you. And no matter where you go, people are going to recognize you and want to come up and talk to you.

You know, it would be easy to be sucked into that. It would be easy to be sucked into that is the meaning of a meaningful life is the number of followers and people that come up and have conversations with you. But to be able to step back and from all of that, from all of the recognition, from all of the growth and the followers and say, I know that I have a tight-knit circle of people that I, can trust that I depend on that I love deeply and I know I need to invest that time. And that, I feel like some people, it takes them a long time in life to get to that point, you know, but to realize that in the middle of growth is, that's really powerful. And that's a really good message for people to understand. I think it was Oprah, was it Oprah Winfrey who had said one time that she doesn't have a lot of close friends? There was a really like well-known,

celebrity that had made mention that. And I was like, I know that she is talking about the fact that I have a tight circle. Just because everyone in the whole world knows who I am doesn't mean that everyone a whole world is my friend. Right. That makes me think about, you know, you brought up our moms. It made me think back to when my mom was in hospice that last week back home, my mom, I grew up with a very strong group of friends from a small town in Pennsylvania. and my parents' friends were almost like family. I love that. So I grew up with, you know, six, eight, ten other families that we'd go on vacation with.

We'd go to dinner with. They'd come over. They felt like aunts and uncles. We'd hang out with their kids. Very tight-knit, small community. It was great. It was a great way to grow up. And I remember when mom was on hospice, her friends were in and out of that.

house that last week the entire time dropping off meals checking in doing whatever they could to help my mom but also to help the family and as i watched that i couldn't help but think if i was in the same situation or position now or in the future do i have people in my life that would be doing that same exact thing you know and that's like uh you take a step back and you think do i actually have people in my corner that I can trust that will stop everything they're doing because they love me and we've built this deep meaningful relationship or is their life too busy to stop and recognize that? That's really powerful. Yeah. And we, you know, I think we've had this discussion before too where, you know, it's hard losing someone. It's hard sitting at the bedside and watching someone

in their last days and taking their last breath. But what is consistent is that when you are sitting bedside, the most important thing to that person lying in the bed is who's there. You know, who it isn't stuff. It's not the achievements. It's not any material possession or car or, you know, how many pull up my Instagram profile. it's who is sitting next to me.

And did I make an impact on the world? Did the people who I grew up with, I did life with, did they know that they were loved by me? You know, the most lasting impression, the things that last forever are love. I mean, the way that we treat people, the way that people feel when they walk away from our presence, that's what lasts.

And I think that's a, I mean, that's a great question. you know, for people listening right now, it's like at the end of this podcast, like, ask yourself that who, you know, who are the most important people in my life? And am I investing in them? When was the last time I told them how precious they are to me? When was the last time I maybe set aside my own agenda just so that I could go and sit with a friend and listen to a friend or help out a friend or just spend time with someone that I love? I think we live in a very fast-paced world where we forget to ask ourselves these questions of reflection and what is really meaningful in life and like where are my steps taking me and why am I even walking you know in this direction but yeah we

weren't meant to do life alone and meaningful impacting relationships are that comes down to being the most important things in our in our life yeah I had to learn that the hard way I remember being in the thick of building the business. And I prided myself in saying I was this lone wolf. I didn't need friends. I didn't need family. No one understood what I was trying to do or what I was building. And I look back at my younger self and just laugh.

I'm like, Nick, you had no clue. He had no clue what you were saying. Because now I look at it completely differently. You know, like our priority, me and my family's priority now is, community. It's building these relationships with people. It can and is, I would argue, more challenging as you get older, especially in different phases of life. But that's now become a big priority of our families. And I wanted to ask this, but this is a really good opportunity to just slide it in. Yeah. Because Steph asked me when we were leaving dinner last night to bring

this up. I was like, okay, yeah, we'll talk about it. I love it. But, like, like, Steph not only observed this, I observe this too. You and your family are, are, it seems very close. And it's so cool to see like, typically when people come out here for a podcast or create content, they leave their family behind. They come out here. You brought Eddie, you brought your kids. And watching your kids kind of walk in and then at the day. dinner table last night, both Steph and I were like, wow, they're like best friends. This is what we want for our kids.

They're goofing off. They're playing around. They're like picking on each other. They're laughing. And I think now as a dad, I look at that. Wow, that's what I want my kids to be to be doing one day. So first off, I just want to say that Steph and I acknowledge that leaving dinner last night and that you should be very proud of your family. That means a lot to me. But I'm curious now what kind of strategy or values or intentionality did you have as you were raising kids that allowed them to grow into the people they are today? Because it seems like they value family. They value relationships.

You guys are very close. Steph even mentioned seeing McKenzie hug Eddie multiple times. She's like, I want Charlie to do that to you. I want Charlie to do that to me. too. So I'm curious, like, what has it attributed to where you guys are today? Yeah. I think the first and foremost, it does come down to the roots of the relationship that Eddie and I have and what we find is valuable. A little bit of what we just talked about. You know, when you lose people, you really understand what is most important life. And I always say that people,

who have lost much understand a little bit more of what matters. That's actually the little like gold nugget that you get when you hurt and when you feel that loss, your eyes are opened up to this is what is important. And, you know, from the time that I lost my mom and then of course as Eddie and I were engaged and we're then thinking about building a family with every big milestone, the ache of not having my mom there was very acute. You know, the, when I, I had McKenzie in Washington, D.C., and I remember it was like, and I wouldn't say, you know, I don't live my life every day. I'm missing my mom. That's not how I live. But there are moments that you feel isolated and where these feelings arise, you weren't prepared to feel. I can relate to that. Yeah. And it's not always something you share.

I always say the hardest part about losing someone isn't the first year because everyone's talking about the first year. It's actually the second year. The second year when everyone has moved on and no one talks about it anymore and it's now a part of your life and it's permanent moving forward. And I think when I had McKenzie the first few weeks of having her was very, it was very emotional realizing like how much I longed for her for my mom to be there, experience and that with me, but on the flip side, it made me want to be the mom that my mom was to me, to my kids. And so what I understood as important was that the most important thing that I knew growing up in the midst of kind of growing up in a really rough home was that I was loved.

And I think love is the most powerful thing. Love is what actually changes people, not the yelling and the condescending, and making people feel bad and, you know, making people feel guilty. And we can even do that as parents. But we see that even in society. We think that being harsh is the way that we're going to make change. And it's like, well, love is actually it. Love is what changes people's heart.

It changes people's lives. And I always felt that from my mom. Even in the really rough seasons when I was battling with my dad, it was like, I knew I was loved. And when you know that you're loved, it's you're able to give love. freely to the people around you. And so for McKenzie and Isaiah and Eddie and I walk in the same vein, like we have always wanted that to be like the shining star in our family. It isn't academics. It isn't how well they perform on the sports field. It is always that we see who they are as

individuals, that we believe in who they are, that they have this unique purpose and that we are in their corner cheering for them every step of the way. Now, of course, that's setting aside. Our kids are humans. They've made mistakes and they, you know, they squabble among themselves and we still have to, you know, discipline them and direct them and guide them in the way they should go. But I think that when you put love at the forefront of everything that you do, it can change lives. And our kids, I feel like now that they're 15 and 17, McKenzie's going to be going off to college next year. It is really interesting to see how she interacts with us.

Did we do our job as parents? Can we now release her into the world as an adult? And I still see her as a four-year-old. You know, I don't see her as like someone ready to go and move out. But Eddie's intention has always been, I'm going to love that girl in every season of her life. I'm going to love her when she makes mistakes. I'm in a lover and all of the highs and lows.

And that ends up being how they face the world. You know, when you know you're loved, you're more confident. When you know you're loved, you can laugh a little bit more. And Isaiah McKenzie, this is just like a personal parenting thing, but we made them share rooms until they were like six and eight or something like that. I shared a room with three siblings. we had five kids in my family always lived like in a two or three bedroom house but you learn a lot having to live with somebody i mean you learn this too if you if especially for listeners if you never

lived with someone until you're married it's like whoa like that is like a huge change when you have to adjust and share so starting at a young age we kind of made them have to learn how to work out their own everyday problems and situations where you know they would have to negotiate with each other, you know, work through arguments, sharing toys. That's smart. Getting along. Yeah, like that, that's been really big. I mean, even now, like, we sometimes when we travel, like, we try to do, like, two hotel rooms, but our kids always end up just coming and hanging out in me and Eddie's room, like,

all the time, like, up until it's like time to go bed, we're like, why are we even wasting our money? Like, you guys just want to hang out with this the whole time. But it's so odd that you bring it up because it's so odd that you bring it up. As I was running this morning, I ran by your hotel. Oh, okay. Because it's part of my run route. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I remember you saying that. I run from my house. I can run into downtown Nashville. Yeah. Sometimes I even run down Broadway through all the bars. Oh, my gosh. As they're cleaning up in the morning, I'd run back. Mm-hmm.

And for some reason, as I was running, I was thinking about dinner last night. I was thinking the podcast today. I thought, you know, I wonder like when you get to an age where your kids are in their teens. Yeah. Like, do you get them each their own room? Do you get one big room? Do you get two big rooms? And I was like, I was thinking about this in my head with no intent of asking it on the podcast. Yeah. But it's so crazy that you brought it up. I was like literally thinking about this morning. I wonder what that looks like. Because now this chapter of my life, we get a back in play. It goes in the corner of the room. And as we're talking about having a second kid, I'm like,

well, how do we get two back in plays? Like, what do we do? It's interesting. Yeah, it is. I mean, we, like, they are good friends. Mackenzie and I, Isaiah, they're good friends. They, they laugh so much. And we've had, I can tell. Yeah, it's a huge blessing. But, but it's also in how we've communicated with them that we make sure they understand. You will have a lot of friends your whole life. You know, you're going to go through different schools. You're going to go to college. You're going to live in different cities. You will always only have one sister. Like, that blessing. blood's running through your veins, same blood's running through McKenzie's veins. And that is someone that you can always choose to love and make a part of your life. And she will always be there for you. And we've

always community, you stand up for one another, you defend each other, you protect each other in the same way that Eddie and I are with each other. Like we defend each other, we choose to love each other, we choose to work through our differences. We have communicated that to our kids too. And we just don't have tolerance, you know, if they get out of hand, like being really mean to each other, or if we find out, like, at school, and this is when they were younger, when they were at the same elementary school, like, it's great life lessons where if we find out, like, hey, Isaiah, was that the, was that the best way to treat your sister? Do you think she felt loved when you made fun of her in front of your friends or, you know, vice versa? But we can talk them through those situations and realize, like,

when it comes to family, you just don't do that. But then you can take it a step further and be like, well, we actually just don't do that with anyone. That's not what we're about. And now sometimes it comes down to like, remember who you are, remember who you represent. And a lot of what we say, you know, Eddie and I know, because sometimes our kids will be like, gosh, you're so strict with us or you're so, you know, you do this. And I'm like, we don't care what other parents are doing. That's not how we parent. We don't, we do keep tabs on you. And we are going to check in with you. And we are going to keep that standard there. And it's because we love you. You don't even understand now, but, you know, kind of what we were saying earlier. It's like, when you're 25, when you're 30, you're going to

look back and be like, that's why, that's why they said those things. That's why they directed this in this direction. So, yeah. How big is your extended family, primarily on Eddie's side, I guess? Yeah. His family's really close, too. Like, they've all stayed, like, within the same, like, three, four mile radius for the last like 60 years. But he has, let's see, he's got like three, his dad has three siblings and then his mom has one sibling. But I'd say the McCray side is probably who we see and hang out with the most. So cousins, yeah, we still all get together around Christmas, Thanksgiving, and the house is probably full of, you know, 25, 35 people.

That's great. Yeah, when the kids have sports, there's aunts and uncle show up, cousins show up. You know, when McKenzie's running across country meet or if Isaiah had football or soccer, it's not uncommon that he has five, six, seven people cheering for him on the sideline. And I always remind the kids of that.

I go, you go and you say thank you to every single person because you have several teammates. They didn't even have their parents show up for many weeks, many races, many games. I've never seen the parents. And that's not anything. Again, I was like that growing up. We had five kids in my family.

We all played soccer. So sometimes it was like, get out of the car. I'm driving to the next field, you know? You never know what the situation is. But I always remind my kids, make sure that you are grateful

for the people who show up, take time out of their day, just to cheer you on. You know, so yeah, Eddie's family's pretty tight-knit. And we spend the most time with them. I've, I've been going to Christmas and Thanksgiving with Eddie since I was 18 years old. Oh, wow. So he's, yeah, his family is very much, uh, my family. Yeah, that's one thing,

Steph and I talk about all the time. Because when my mom passed away, that side of the family, I don't always say fell apart, but like, the family functions kind of just stopped. Yeah. And then my dad's out of the family. It's a small family. Okay. There's my dad, his brother, my uncle. So, like, when we were in Pennsylvania, growing up, we had Thanksgiving, we had Christmas, we had events together. But my mom was the glue that kept that together.

When my mom passed away, it just stopped altogether. Steph's family is very close-knit. I mean, they have Thanksgiving, Christmas, it's big groups of people. But now we're in Tennessee, and they're in Michigan. So we're trying to think about what our life looks like over these next couple decades. Yeah. Where when Charlie is at sports or she has an event who's showing up or on weekends for a picnic after church, we're not going to grandma and grandpa. It's like, where are we going? What does that look like? Because it's going to look very different from the way we were raised.

So it's just a conversation we have all the time because we realize how important not just, family is, but these deep, meaningful relationships are in your life and then how that kind of molds children as they get older. Absolutely. I think the kids who feel loved and supported, it absolutely affects their confidence. It affects their decisions in life. You know, Eddie and I were teachers. And then Eddie was a youth pastor for many years. And one of the things that we always notice was, you know, the kids that didn't have that support group, that especially like latchkey kids who, you know, like they were just left on

their own, left at home by themselves for many hours or didn't feel supported in the things that they loved or the things that they were passionate about. they we found that that came with some insecurities and sometimes some bad choices you know that they would make and so Eddie and I and we we've moved out of state like we've gone away from family a couple times and that is one of the most important things that we found when we move is we got to find a community and it's okay if no if there's not one family member there but like where are we going to plant ourselves like what are or what can we create you know in order when we when when we moved to Washington D.C. we didn't have kids. We ended up having McKenzie but when we moved to Bend, you know, our kids were

teenagers. So that was a really vulnerable time for us. But that was also the main focus is where are we going to build relationships? Where are we going to build community? Because a lot of their mental state is going to be affected by that. Where did you build community and relationships? We had two friends in Bend. That actually helped us move there, was knowing that we had friends there as soon as we moved. And then we were like a stone's throw from the church that we had planned on going to. And so we knew that that was also important. The other thing was we would get the kids and we got the kids involved in sports right away. Because we all, I mean, Eddie and I grew up playing ball sports. We're like, dude, when you have a team, you're sitting on the sidelines with parents. Sometimes the best friendships are built, like, cheering on the sidelines with friends, right? So we made friends that way, too. You just, you know, McKenzie was in cross-country. Isaiah was playing football.

And so we met people that way. So I think inserting kids in sports, regardless if they're good or not, and it doesn't even, especially the younger they are, like, sign up for everything. Like, find out what they love. But you start to create community and support that way, too. And your kids learn from that. Your kids watch how you interact with people. They start to understand how important people are and relationships are from you because you're the first of everything in their life.

You know, you are their whole world. And you think of Charlie. You are everything. In fact, when she goes out in public, you're the most important thing. Like the playground isn't important. You and Steph are the most important thing. You are her lighthouse, her guiding light. I mean, you're everything.

And every new experience that she's going to have is it will usually start with you. And so with the kids, that has been very important to is building that relationship and who are you hanging out with and where are you creating that community because it's going to affect a lot how you just operate in the world. Yeah, one of the things I love doing with Charlie is part of our morning routine where I run in the morning, Steph wakes up Charlie as I'm finishing up my run. And then Steph goes and works out. And while she's working out, I take Charlie to get coffee at a frothy monkey on 12 south. It's just our routine. I go get a coffee. And then I get Charlie sometimes like a blueberry muffin.

But what I've been trying to do is like really build just like community in this. coffee shop. So like really introducing myself and Charlie to the people who are serving as coffee, the people who are there every day, the regulars. And now when we walk in, they like they greet Charlie. They come and check on her. And like that for me, I get a lot of fulfillment out of because like, wow, she's like, she's feeling like she's a part of this community, even though she's so young and people are excited to see her and they're welcoming her in. And I just like, I feel like I get so much out of that. equally as much as she does.

I think people long for that. I mean, I look at what you've created with the Goa Moore community, right? And just BPN as a whole. You know, you've had the athletic club, you've,

you've had podcasts, the content you put out. When people are collectively following that, and I think I had told you too, like I'm in Huntington Beach and like I'm a part of two just local everyday gyms like LA Fitness and 24R Fitness.

But every time I go to the gym, I usually see someone in BPN stuff. That's so awesome. And so many times I get like a nod. You know, you get like, what's up? It's like, you're just like, yeah, we're both part of BPN community. Like we both love this company. Real, recognize as real.

Yeah, right? Exactly. And I just, I love that, you know, something so simple as a T-shirt or a hat can do that. And I think that at the core of our human nature, we want to belong. We want to be understood. we want to be seen and we want to be a part of something great. And it makes us feel like we have a little more confidence when we're going after a goal, which I know that the Goa more club always encourages is set that goal, go after it, be consistent,

like show up every day for yourself, put that work in. And that's something we need to be reminded of every single day. Like we can know that at our core, but like when we see that happening constantly, we're part of a community that that is what we do, I mean, you just feel. stronger because of it. So expanding that just into your everyday life is so important, raising kids to understand that. Like you do not exist just for you. You know, you exist to love other people to create relationships that are that are meaningful because that's going to last forever and how fun when you're doing it with a community and you're all working towards other things

that you really love too, you know, your own individual goals. I, I, I, I, I always like to explain even on our podcast. I say, you know, we talk a lot about running on our podcast, but you don't have to be a runner to listen to the podcast. It's not what it's about. You also don't have to just run. I think the idea of moving your body, you're going to get, you know, you're going to feel better. Your total well-being, you're going to feel better, getting out, getting that fresh oxygen, getting into the sunshine. But what happens when you move your body? You move through a community. You move through crowds of people. You know, you're going to end up standing next to somebody.

Like, I mean, we can talk about like a workout class in a gym, right? Like, I go to the gym every day. Like, Zumba is not my thing at all. But the Zumba class for the last 15 years has been packed. And it's incredible. You see there's a community in there of people moving their bodies and they're laughing and they're really enjoying sweating to this Zumba class, right? So I think when you're a part of a community that moves,

where you're strengthening your body, you're getting in that fresh, fresh oxygen and you're pushing each other be the best you are. It's really powerful. It bleeds out into every area of your life. Yeah. So if you're new to a community or a place, like find a place it's facilitating movement. Yes. Join work on classes. Here in Nashville has been really cool. There's so many running clubs. Every night you can join a new running club. I love that. On trails, on the road. I was actually really surprised by how deep the running routes, community is here in the Nashville area. Coming from Austin, I knew Austin had a big running community.

I would argue that Nashville's running community is even bigger. Wow. And we were talking last night about that, the running store. Yeah. The exchange. Did you guys go yet? Not yet. Well, I hear that they have two run clubs on the weekend.

There's one on Sunday. Yeah. Once my marathon preps over, I'm going to be joining to 7 a.m. at the Deep Well Park up in the trails. That's when I'm going to join once Marathon Preps over. But yeah, they have their own running.

Saturday, you get waffles and coffee. That sounds even better. So I might go check that out tomorrow. That's a 6.30 in the morning. I think it's really short. It's like two or three miles. That'd be sweet though. I know, right?

So it's kind of like, I think they call it the warm up, the weekend warm up. Okay. And then they're longer run. is Sunday on the trails. And I was like, that's brilliant. So if you are brand new to running, regardless of your fitness level, you can go out, use some coffee and waffles, run a couple miles. Meet people. That's actually why they do it, right? At that point, it's like, that's what it's

about. It's just warming up, saying hi, being a part of community. I love that. And, you know, I had put on my story that we were coming here. And I said, who's here? And wow, The responses were pretty incredible. All runners. That's awesome. Yeah. So I have to agree with you. The running community here is definitely rivaled.

Because I've been very impressed with the Austin running community. Same. It's deep. Yeah. It's like it's growing even more and more. Yeah. Well, on the spirit of running, you just knocked down some absolutely epic efforts. And you didn't just like participate in the efforts.

You placed in all these efforts. You did the triple crown. this past number. Before the Triple Crown, you did Cocadona 250. Yes. She went Cocodona 250, then Tahoe 200, then Bigfoot 200, and then Moab 240. And right now I'm across the table from the female winner

of the Moab 240, 2020, 23. So first off, congratulations. Thank you. That's huge. Before we talk about all those races and Moab specifically, how's the body feel right now? Well, we can start off with the fact that you invited me to go on your run. And I had to very humbly tell you that I have not run yet since crossing the finish line because the feet are not ready.

So we went full send at Moab 240. And I knew that. So it was worth it. I'm healing. Like I definitely fell way better than the first couple days after Moab. So I don't have any more blisters on my tongue. You know, no more open wounds on the feet. I'm processing food, sleeping really well. How bad? Like, paint me a picture after Moab. How bad were you? Was it the worst you ever been?

That's a great question. I think because Kokodona was, um, Kokodona was May 1st. I was trying to compare the two. Like, was I worse after Kokadona or was I, I worse after Moab? But then I also backpedal and I thought Bigfoot was pretty rough because it was 17 days after Tahoe. That's wild. Yeah, that was rough because of snowpack and fires, they had to move it. And that was the only thing that they could do. So if you were part of the Triple Crown race, then you just had to, had to endure that. And there were several people that did.

So I think that after Moab, what I realized was that I'm feeling a couple things. I'm feeling the cumulative miles of racing 1,100 miles within a five-month span. Because I threw in a hundred-mile race as like a training run in the lead up to Kocodona. So it came out to, you know, the most miles I've ever raced in my life in one season. And my body was feeling that before I got to Moab. It was like, dude, we're tired. Like, this is, we're going to go do another effort. and I was very aware mentally of some things that I would have to battle.

And we can talk about that in a little bit. But I had to keep on building upon each race knowing that physical pain was going to be inevitable if I wanted to finish the whole series. So yeah, I finished pretty wrecked. It took me a couple days to be able to sleep through the night. and it took me almost a week before I could, you know, put shoes on and walk around, okay. I can't completely feel like my four feet and all my toes. And then...

It's permanent? I don't think so because it's gotten better since the start. But the problem with nerve damage and I have some metatarsal stuff too, and it's overuse. But nerves just... they heal at a very slow rate. So I had struggled with that at Bigfoot because Bigfoot was so close to Tahoe. And I knew I was like, dude, I'm probably going to hit some overuse something because, you know, this is coming out to over 400 miles of racing within 17 days. So I had some foot problems after Bigfoot.

It took me about three weeks before. I was like, okay, now I can like hit some pretty good workouts. and the feet don't bother me. But now that's only three and a half weeks before I race Moab. So I think the feet will be fine. That's so great being in my off season right now. I can really just let the body rest. And I have always kind of checked in with myself as it comes to running.

Because I know sometimes ultra runners get this reputation that we're obsessed with running. We're addicted to running. You know, we can't do without it. There's a lot of people who do running streaks, you know, in our, area of running. So it's like people that that cannot not run every single day. And I've wanted, I've always been aware of that. And I think it's so important to be able to check in with my heart about the things that I'm spending a lot of time on. So my off season is so important to me. And after I cross the finish line at Moab, it was a really good time to ask myself, like, this was an

amazing season, but am I okay, like, not running for the next month? Am I okay, like, really focusing on letting my body heal and recover? And that's something I actually ask myself every single year when I go into my off season. I think I want to be known as more than just running. And running isn't what brings value to my life. It brings joy because I've had that joy since I was a little girl. But if I couldn't run anymore, you know, what is important to me? Like, who am I if I, if I don't have that running? So, you know, finishing mob, it was great. It was a whirlwind. It was a dream come true to finish it that way. You know, I wasn't expecting that. Like, definitely had the goal of winning, but with so many obstacles going into it, I knew I'm just

going to give the best effort, you know, that I possibly can. So to finish, I was a little bit of, I was just so grateful, grateful for that win and grateful to have finished all the races despite it all. But right now it's about healing, recovering, and building back up for 2024. I think it's super important. For anyone who hasn't ever done an ultra before, they might not be able to put it into context or understand how impressive it is. not just that you won noab, but the fact that you did Cocodona and the Triple Crown, I mean, I did last man standing in September. And I think a lot of people think when you log all these miles, you do a big effort.

It's just your muscles that have to recover. It's like, yeah, give two weeks your muscles are better. But it's the overuse injuries that accumulate. So when I finished last man standing, I had all the. these overuse injuries for the first month afterwards. And I was trying to jump into a marathon prep. And I was thinking, I might not be able to do this marathon prep because of the overuse injuries. I mean, when you're doing, and that was a hundred mile race, when you're stacking 200s on top of each other with like literally days in between, I can't even imagine that compounding

overuse. The conditioning that you had to be in before even starting Coca-a-Donough. had to be amazing. Was that like the best conditioning you ever reached in your career? Well, I have to first very humbly admit that I went into the 200-mile series with very, with like a childlike perspective. I had to. Like a naive approach? Not naive, but like I knew the best way to.

approach it was to go in as a student. And I think that it's easy when you have been doing something at a high level for so long. You know, I've been running professionally for almost 10 years. So I've been in the sport for a long time. It's very easy to fall back and be like, I know what I'm doing. And I'm also a coach. So it's like, I know how to train. I know what my body needs. I know how to program. But I thought, that's usually when I make the biggest mistakes. When I think I can just go in and I know I know it all. And I feel if I, if I ever stay in that thought process for too long, I'm going to stop growing. I'm going. I'm going. I'm stop learning. I'm stop getting better. And so every year, the start of my year is I just want to be better than I was last year. And so I knew

January 2023, this is the year where I'm going to run 200s. And that's actually one of the reasons why I signed up for four. It was because I really wanted to get the best. of myself. I wanted to be better as I went along. And I wanted to learn everything I could about this distance because it's still relatively new. And there isn't like books you can buy on how to train for a 200. And everyone's still figuring it out, like how you pace them, how you recover, like what's the best training? And there's like a wide array of how people train for these. And so leading up, I did a lot of studying. I would study how all like the top runners were how they were winning, how they pace, like what their training look like.

I'd listen to podcasts. I was trying to find as much as I could. If I could just be a student, then I'm going to use Kokadona 250 as I'm not going to focus so hard on trying to get on the podium. I'm going to focus on just being the best that I can be out there with what I've learned through the training. And so I learned that a lot of the successful athletes have spent a lot of time doing through hikes long like fkT attempts um you know they've done like the 48 72 hour races what's a through hike through hike let's say like a PCT or the got you appalachian trail type thing like they're they're doing like these several days on and hiking on on these long trails and wow so these athletes um they are

used to enduring for days on end. They're used to like long days on the feet. Then you go and you like study the times. And it's easy when you have a 100 mile mind, which I do to look at the average pace and be like, dude, that's not, that's slow. Like, but I knew better than that. I'm like, okay, this is not run like a hundred mile race. So you, you don't know like what's going on. They're going on sleep deprivation. Like anything could happen as they are, you know, crossing over all different types of terrain. And so being a coach, one of the things I also realized was, okay, if I'm going to do four of these, my body's going to be so battered. I'm going to be so battered probably after the first one and the second one's pretty close. So I really need to

pay attention to the breakdown of my body. And so what I decided to do in the lead up to Kokadona, which is not very popular in the endurance world, was I'm going to try to put on as much muscle as I can. Like, I actually want to gain weight. And we did like a 200 mile training series on my YouTube. I was like, I'm just going to show people, you know, what it is that I'm doing. And it might be, end up being the stupidest training. It might not end up being helpful to me. But I'm going to put together what I know to be true about endurance and just do the best I can. kind of put these pieces together, take some advice from what other people are doing. So I was in the gym way more. I would do like, you know, mountain hikes with like 20 pound weight vest because I knew

that towards the end of these long races, like your pack just feels heavier because your body's broken down more. And so I thought as my body gets broken down, I want to know that I can rely on the strength that I've built in it. And if I focus just on running, then I'm going to do myself a disservice. And by race number three, I'm going to be like a shadow of who I am. You know, I'm going to be really beaten up. And the overuse injuries was one of the things that I knew I would be battling. Now, I don't battle injury. It's been almost 10 years since I've had an injury that has, that has kept me from being able to race. I can't, even like training. I think the biggest thing within this 200s was my feet, which we'll talk about in a

minute what happened at the first race. But the reason behind that is because I spend so much time on strength training. And I had to get to a point in my career, especially when I was first signed, you know, I was often, it was pointed out about the muscle I had on, but I had to kind of transition it over into, well, how strong can you be? I want to stay in the sport for a long time. I want to go far. I want to try new things. And I love pushing my limits every single year, especially the longer I've gotten in my career. I'm like, I don't really feel like I have to do all the races that everyone else is doing or that my sponsors tell me to do. I'm going to do what I want to do because I had this opportunity to push myself beyond the limits that I ever thought, you know,

that I was capable of doing. And like, now's the time to do that. And so 200's kind of culminated in both that. I want to be a student. I'm going to try this new distance. And I'm also going to see if my body can actually handle racing over a thousand miles within like a five month. span and still come out okay. How much did you end up gaining during that period? So I put on, I think it was almost six pounds. And I added on, I think it was 2% of muscle. Because you're doing dexas scans, I believe.

Yeah, I was doing dexas scans. So I need to look up what those exact numbers. I posted it on my Instagram. I was stoked. And then the week of the race, you know, it's easy to put on like water weight, just heavy weight. Like I was standing at the start line, I was pretty heavy. I was probably like 150 pounds at the start line. And, but it's crazy. You look at a picture of me at the start and the finish. I mean, I'm like effectively like almost 15 pounds lighter. Now, a lot of that,

you're dehydrated. Right. You know, it isn't like true weight. But I remember coming home and everyone just being like, oh my gosh. Like you look, you look like you're sick. And I was so grateful that I had put it on all the weight. I'm like, I can't imagine. if I had been training maybe like for like a road marathon where like you want to be in like the best racing shape. Race weight. Race weight. Yeah.

And there's a specific healthy weight for that which looks different for all of us, right? And that's where you're strongest, your lightest and your fastest. And usually only hold race weight for a little bit if you're doing it the right way. You don't stay in that year round. Correct. You work up to that. And so I knew like I can't approach this like a road marathoner like I need to approach it with like how strong and enduring can I be.

and it ended up being a very positive experience for me because I had a lot of discomfort in my feet, but the rest of my body was so strong. And after Kokadona, you know, I didn't really have breakdown. Like my legs weren't sore. I wasn't like suffering in any other area except my feet. But it was pretty incredible to see how much my body changed just after one race. There was this photo that you posted. And it's also the thumbnail on one of the docks.

I can't remember if it's Cokadona. Mm-hmm. But, like, you're laying on your back. It was Tahoe. Yeah. And I remember, like, seeing that photo thinking, wow, Sally looks thin. Yes.

Right there. Yeah. I lost a lot of weight in that race. And I went into that race. I didn't realize how sick I was. Or I went in sick. But because we were pushing up into altitude and temperatures were, like, over 90 degrees.

And I, that one I wanted. to race. Like that when I was like, dude, okay, coca dona, I took my time. I learned what I could. Let's see if I can get on the podium at Tahoe. And so I pushed pretty hard in that, but I got increasingly sick as the miles went on. And I was only able to keep down. We calculated it to be anywhere between 2,500 and 3,000 calories for the entire race, which that's horrible. I mean, are you throwing up or you just couldn't? Yeah, it was throwing up and then I just couldn't get calories down and then about halfway through. I mean, this happened almost every race. I would get sores on my mouth. And I don't know if I was the dirt or the wind or citrate,

whatever it was. But it was pretty intense. It was hard to get calories down. But that one was, I mean, I learned something completely new in each and every race and was able to build on each race. So what I went through at Cocodona, I still dealt with my feet at top. I was, Tahoe. And, but because I endured to the finish line, I was able to then not make my feet at issue at Tahoe. They were so painful. But in my mind, I thought, well, I'm not giving you any attention because I know how to get to the finish line when you hurt this bad. And so now I'm just focusing on the goal that I want to achieve. But then I was sick. And that was so frustrating to me. I'm like, dude, there's always something like, why does it have to be something? So it was a lot of mind

games. But yeah, when I finished that race too, it was the same thing. Like, I'd already, you know, lost some weight at Cocodona. I put it back on like pretty quick, but not all of it. So then starting Tahoe, I was still lighter than I was at Cocodona. And then it just, that's just how it was for every single race after that. When you say your feet were all banged up, what do you mean, like blisters and yeah, you said some of metatarsals earlier, what was going on with the feet? Yeah. So So, Kocodona, I made a mistake. I own this mistake. I had a gear couch in the lead up to Kocodona. Is this the socks? Yeah, is the socks. I remember hearing this. Yeah. And, you know, my whole career, I haven't had blisters. I don't deal with black toenails. Like, and in a very

prideful way, that's something that I've always been very happy to let people know. You should see my toenails still. Do you not have toenails? I don't have toenails. I don't have toenails, they're black. There's like toenails growing under toenails where I can't even like clip them. They're like, they're at this point now where we're talking about at dinner last night. There's like toenails growing under toenails because probably one of them is dead. Yes. So the only time I can clip them is after I let them like sit in hot water for a long time. Yeah, when they're soft. And when I get in bed at night, Steph tucks the bed sheets so tight at the end. They hurt my toes so bad. I'm like just don't tuck the sheets.

Loosen those up. Yeah. But yeah, my toenails are always black. So yeah. Congrats to you. I mean, that was normal. I mean, that's normal. For most like endurance athletes, like their feet aren't great. But I've always prided myself in that. And I've worn the same shoes like my whole career. So Nike Wild Horse is my shoe. And yeah, so I didn't think twice. Like, I never have foot issues. and what happened was, you know, we had my gear couch and I ordered like several things for Kocodona. I had like a desert hat and I actually trialed out like different socks because I thought, okay, I'm going to be out there for a long time. I know there's some river crossings. Like I just

want to make sure I have maybe even a variety of socks like blister production socks and drymax and mullskin, you know, all that. And so when I got this pair of socks that I already had, I have the exact same pair of socks, same color of these bright color, Belaga. socks. They're from South Africa. I love this company. I've worn the sock forever. And they like give back to the community. Great company. So it's nothing against Belaga. This is me. So the stuff came in the mail. I took him out of the package and I threw him in my sock pile on my couch telling myself, this is my scatterbrain mine, I'll go back and I'll wash those. And they never got washed. And so after the race, I actually went online and did research because

I was like, I still don't understand why my feet got blisters so bad within like the first six miles. So I went on like a lot of hiking like through hiker blogs and websites and looked up all this feet stuff. And there was one thing that popped out to me. And one of them said, if you wear unwashed socks, you're at risk, especially if there's like print and colors. Sometimes the dyes and the inks can affect your skin. And they can also make your socks slippery. And I thought that that's the only explanation. Because I test everything and I have run in every type of environment and terrain you can think of up volcanoes, through jungles, through rivers, rain, snow, wind, you name it.

I've been fine in all of it. Even at bad water, never had blisters at bad water. So I, in the middle of that rate, it wasn't even the middle of it. So like mile six, I started putting band-aids and stuff on and I was like, this is crazy. Like-mile six. Mile six. I stopped at the aid station. Of 250.

Of a 250. you don't get to see your crew till mile 38. And so I knew I couldn't even change my shoes till then. So in that moment, I remember telling myself, Sally, stay positive. We're not even going to like, this isn't a big deal. It's fine. And at that time, they were just like big blisters on the back of my heels. They still were like pillowy. And so I had a blister pack with me. I always carry one with me. Even all these years, I don't have it. I'm always just prepared just in case. And sometimes you can help out another run or two. so I always carry extra stuff. And so I patched them up and then I just continued on.

And I just, you know, that mental focus I think is so powerful. I'm just going to focus on getting to the A-Stage. I'm not going to focus what's going on the heels. There's nothing I can do about it. Like I can't change my shoes or socks. And so I got to the Aid station. I remember the live feed camera was on me. And I'm very particular about like being intentional with my actions when that

live feed is on me because I don't want anything like getting out or blown out of proportion and become a topic that isn't true. And so for me, in my mind, I didn't think my feet were a big deal. And so I'm not going to make it seem like it's a big deal. Like I'm not. So I was very quick. I whispered in Eddie's ear like, just give me a different pair of socks. Like, and he gave me socks different shoes. And I bandaged up as best I could. And I looked at him. I was like, like my feet, so now we're on almost 40 miles in. My feet are in a lot of pain. I've never, ever experienced this before. And I actually don't know what to do. And he just gave me some words of encouragement. But I realized at that moment, 38 miles in, I either am going to beat myself up

and maybe even throw in the towel and be like, dude, this is just like not my race, like my stupid feet. or I'm just going to take ownership and realize like whatever's going on is because of a mistake that I made. And now I'm going to wear that and I'm going to see how well I can do this race because I don't want to wake up tomorrow morning and know that I didn't reach my goal because I made a mistake. I need to just own the mistake, take responsibility for it and do the best with what I have where I can. So that was how the race went. It was constantly managing feet. Feeling my fitness, like I was really fit, but not being able to do or move at the pace that I went because... It's very frustrating.

It was very frustrating. So mile 100, we come into mile 100, and this is now the second time that I'm going to look at my feet. And I'm a very visual person. So for me, I didn't look at my feet that whole 60 miles. stretch because I didn't want to think about what was what was happening, you know, if they're getting grinded up or whatever. So, oh, actually, no, we stopped one time before we hit Mile 100. So this was the third time I would be looking at it. And a medic comes over and they spend like almost 40 minutes fixing my heel. So that got me really frustrated. I realized I made this mistake. I'm now adding on

time like and I'm looking at, you know, now I have several blisters on the back. Well, one of them, my right one in particular was, it wasn't even a blister. Like, it looked like a gash now. It was bleeding. It was like really gross. And then my two baby toes were not looking good either. My baby toes kind of like curve in anyway. They're like smashed up against like my fourth toe. That's mine are too. Yeah. And that's not a good thing. So those were starting to get blisters on the outside. And then I'm like, outside of him like, dude, this is crazy. This is crazy that in this race, I'm experiencing something I never have. And then as we left, I had to kind of like giggle because I thought, well, I did say at the beginning of the year, I want to be a student.

I want to grow. I want to learn all that I can. And now it's like I just feel like I'm totally being humbled in this area. And this area where I'm so prideful, I'm so prideful about my feet and how strong they are. And like the strong calluses that I have developed, you know, over the last decade that have, you know, I've been able to escape foot problems. But now it's like foot problems in the worst. way. It feels like God was like challenging you, race one.

Yeah. Saying, yeah. I want you to quit. I want you to stop. And then you were rewarded with a win at Moab. That's honestly like how it all, it feels like this is all intentional. Nick, I, oh, I love that you're saying that because I, I mean, I'm always looking at the bigger picture

and everything I do. Like, I've always felt like that is my career. I believe that the, the, the, the, the, things we get to do in life, the things that we're passionate about, the gifts and talents that we naturally have, like, they aren't about bringing us glory. They're not about, like, just making us happy. Like, there's something greater mixed in there. And I think that was one of the valuable things that I learned in sharing the story. You know, we made a couple documentaries. There's a third one coming out, too, was the story that I was telling in that. It was not about running.

it was, you know, I think we all hit points in our life where we make a mistake and then we turn around with our tail between our legs and we're embarrassed. And it was really easy for me because people, I mean, it was, my races were so public. So people definitely weighed in. I mean, people are talking about me choosing the wrong shoes and you're a pro, you need to figure this out, what's your problem? I'm even having like, you know, close friends that are like, Sally, you need to figure this out. Like, what is your problem? single race you have this like dramatic thing that you're dealing with and I'm thinking I'm like you think I want that like I do not want that like you don't think that deep down I am so frustrated I want to

rip my hair out and I'm I'm enduring this physical pain and you have half the people that are like you shouldn't be doing that to your body and then other people that are just like you're you're crazy like what what is the purpose and all this but I really believe there's a greater purpose in anything that I do, especially when it's in the things that I wholeheartedly believe that I was meant to be doing. Like, I've known and believed since I was a little girl that I am strong. Like, I was made to endure. For whatever reason, I have a body that can endure and does not break down. Like, I don't deal with injuries. I don't deal with things that sideline me. And for whatever reason, it just sounds like, like an amazing time to go and spend 50, 60, 80, 100 hours in the mountains. Like, I love it. I love it.

that. Like, that does set my heart on fire. But at the same time, I really think that if I am pursuing these things just for a medal, or if I'm pursuing these things because I want recognition, like, I'm going to be left empty all the time. And I think that it would have been really easy for me in a moment of pride and thinking, like, oh, my gosh, this experience and this performance is going to go my record forever and I'm just going to look stupid. Like, I'm going to walk away from that. But I was like, no, like, what's this story that I want to tell? Like, why actually am I out here? Like, what have I always done with my running from day one that it's made it meaningful? And I do appreciate and value the way that I can encourage other people in their real life in the races I do. I don't think that because

I do these races, that it makes me a superhuman. I don't even think any of my performances were like jaw-dropping awesome. Like I don't think that, you know, I know I'm not the best in the world, but I really believe that if I can be the best Sally that I can be, I can encourage anyone to do that. You don't have to be the best in the world. Just go be the best that you can possibly be. Like one of my favorite verses is like it's about a race.

You know, we run the race with endurance, but the thing is that there's only one person who gets the prize. but what if we all acted like we were the champion? What if we ran the race as if we were going to get the prize? Now apply that to everything in your life. Then you are fully focused. Champions focus on the goal. There is nothing else that matters.

Like you're not looking to your right or your left. You don't care what the naysayers say. Like you know there is one goal in your life. And when you are someone that's used to winning, you know that feeling. You know the work that you have to put in. You know what it feels like to stand at the top of that. podium. But I feel like for a lot of people, they're like, well, I just don't win in anything in life. And I don't know what I amount to. I don't know what the purpose of my life is. And man,

I have failed so much. Or I have people in my life who remind me of my failures or make me feel like I'm not a mountain in anything. And so they're just always left searching. But if you tell someone, no, you give your best no matter what, you don't have to be the best in the world. But if you operate in your life like you were the best, you are the champion, it will change your life. Because it's, it's then how you approach your first step out of bed. It's how you approach your interactions with people. You know, it approaches the work of your hands every single day. I mean, I don't care if you're flipping hamburgers at McDonald's or you're the CEO of a really big company. Be the best at all times. And that was always at the forefront of my mind in every single race. Be the best

at suffering, Sally. Be the best at enduring this foot pain. Be the best at learning how to move forward even though you're vomiting up all your nutrition. Can you keep your eyes on the goal and focus on the goal and not what you're feeling? Because the feelings are fleeting. And I think so often we look for feelings in life. Like I just want to have that feeling again. I want to have that emotion. I want to just feel happy. And we completely overlook like what is true and what is good and what is lasting. And so these temporary feelings often go away as soon as we cross a finish line. And I know that. I've been racing long enough to know that the nausea, the pain in my feet, when I cross that finish line, those things are slowly going to subside. And all that I'm going to

be left with is either what I did or didn't do. Did I cross a finish line or did I make excuses? Did I give my best or did I decide to blame somebody else? That's what I'm left with. when I wake up in the morning after a race, it's what did you do with what you had, not how smooth did your race go? It isn't about perfection. Nothing in life is perfect. People aren't perfect. And I know a lot of times we try to be, but what if it was just, I'm going to give my best, no matter the circumstance. And the pain, the physical pain I felt at Cocodona 250 was hands down the worst pain I've ever felt in a race. It was so much so. I mean, I, I remember, because Drew and Tyler were filming, and I think they even said it in the film,

but they were like, oh my gosh, we've never seen Sally cry. And they have been with me in races that were really tough when we did the Chew Strong Project, you know, the race, the film that you guys did. I mean, they had been with me through a lot of discomfort. And even, same with Eddie. Like, he knows, oh, my gosh, if Sally is crying, like, this is like really, really rough. And I remember leaving the aid station because I had crossed a river and then straight from the river. It was a super, super steep incline that just ripped my heels to shreds.

And that, the one on my right heel turned into like a grade three ulcer. It was a whole, like to lean into the, well, you need to show yourself some grace. Like, you need to be nice to yourself. You need to recover. And I'm all for that. I'm totally, I totally understand that. We do need to show grace for yourself. And I'm not a masochist. I wasn't trying to look for pain. I didn't need to prove anything to anyone. But I had a strong conviction when I was out there to finish the race, no matter the circumstance. Because as a mom, I spent the last six months training so hard for this race, the sacrifices I made, the dedication and the discipline. And it's not like my femur is broken. I don't have rabdo. Like this isn't like a critical injury. This is my skin hurts. And I'm wondering

if I can endure to the finish line. But that single race set me up for the rest of the series. And it then became not about the physical. Wasn't like, oh, can I run 200 miles again? I was never, that was never a concern. Never even crossed my mind for the remaining races. It was, all right, what is going to go on between my two ears? What am I going to be battling as I encounter these physical, you know, difficulties, which are inevitable in every race now?

Well, it almost seems like there's an analogy there of you said like you didn't break a femur. Yeah. You didn't have rabdo. Your skin hurt. Yeah. And it makes me instantly think of the people who are criticizing you along this way. And the only way to combat people who are criticizing what you're doing is by having thick skin. And your skin is what hurts.

That's so true. On this journey to get across the finish line. The two things I kept thinking about while you were telling that story, which was absolutely amazing. Thank you. Is courage and confidence. I think a lot of people end up in situations or positions in their life where they're forced to make a decision and the right decision that's going to lead them through the successful path, not necessarily the easy path, but the one that leads to success. and wins and greatness, that has to be a courageous decision. It's never the easy decision, but it's a courageous one.

And the only way you make courageous decisions is through confidence. And I was thinking about that as you were talking. Sometimes when I'm talking to Steph, I'm really passionate about what I'm talking about, I will preface it by saying this thing and she knows exactly where I'm going. As soon as I say it, I say, Steph, I'm about to say something. And this is not me being cocky. This is me being very humble and confident. But what I'm about to say is going to come across as cocky.

And then I'll say something. But people will get cocky and confident confused. Cocky will lead to decisions that are premature or driven through ego. Confidence guides decisions that are courageous. So it seems like you were in this position that was forcing you to make courageous decisions, but you are so confident in the decision because you prepared. You've trained for years leading up to this. You've gone through trials and tribulations and you've gone into headwinds and uphills

and you've had to cross obstacles before, but you're so resilient because of your journey over a lifetime. the decision wasn't to stop or not. It's how am I going to mentally handle the next 150 miles to get to the finish line? Because I'm getting there regardless. Absolutely. And when you, I love that, the courage and the confidence. You and I laugh. I feel like you guys talked about this before.

How much our spouses are like? 100%. Like that preface you gave. I do that with Eddie all the time. Okay, this is going to sound really prideful, but he's always like, okay. Send it, let's hear it. Send it, let's hear it. Yeah.

And how great to have someone that you can share like that. Yeah. I mean, it's really important. But I also think that's why people are afraid to make goals for themselves. You know, they, well, I don't want to sound too prideful. I don't want to sound like this. and it's also that great fear of and then if I fail in front of everyone. So I'm just going to play it safe.

I'm going to stay right here in the middle lane where I don't rock anyone's bow. I don't bring any attention to myself and like definitely aren't going to fail. And if I do it, it'll be like so slight. Like it won't be a big deal. It won't affect anyone. And it is scary to keep going when you, when you don't know how it's going to end. But I think what changed for me, the longer that I've been in this sport is you get to a point where you're like, I actually like don't care if I fail. It's totally fine.

Like if this blows up in my face and like I literally cannot take another step, it's okay because there's actually another start line. And I think sometimes we can build up that one goal in our mind that we think that is the end all. that is the one thing in life. And there's two ways we can look at it. One, if I get this goal, it's going to change my life. My life will be better. I'm going to be happier. Everyone is going to praise me.

Like, this is going to change everything about me. And that's really scary when someone successfully gets a goal and then they realize, why am I still unhappy? Why am I still unfulfilled? I like calling that goal or the perception of that goal to unlock. People that they, once they achieve it, it unlocks. all these other parts of their life when the reality, it's probably not. Absolutely.

And you can, but if you look at your goals and your failures as being on the same level, it changes your perspective because there's one goal in life. There's one finish line. It's the end of your life. That's when you're all done.

That's actually when you're living. So failures, you know, that doesn't mean you are a nothing that you have no value. Every human fails. and one of my favorite analogies is so great because I know Charlie has started walking. Can you imagine if when kids started walking and the first time they fell down, they're like, well, I guess I'm just not cut out for this thing.

Like, I'm not going to walk anymore. Learning to walk is all about falling and getting back up. Charlie's going to do that over and over and over and over again. And it's just amazing because they get back up. And I love this too, watching Isaiah and McKenzie. When they would fall down, they'd have this huge smile on their face. We're going to try again. Like, daddy's waiting at the end of the hallway.

We're here we go again. And it might be four times falling before Charlie gets into your arms, right? And it's just the most beautiful thing. That is actually how we're supposed to do life. We were literally created to fall and rise again over and over. And for whatever reason, there's a lot of misconceptions that we start to allow into our mind, the older we get. And we actually start trying less. We actually start to fear falling more and more.

But if we understood, no, that was literally the path. That was the path from the beginning. As soon as you learned a walk, you fell. And then you got back up again. So why have you stopped doing that? And for whatever reason, we think that as soon as we reach one goal, that life is just over, like you're done, reaching goals, your goals are actually just stepping stones.

You should build on those. Failures are the same things because you can learn so much when you don't reach a goal. when you DNF. I mean, I've had my fair share of DNFs, but quitting and failing are two different things. Quitting is, I'm never going to try that again. I'm done for the rest of my life. It's never possible. I'm not going to believe in myself. I have no confidence. I'm done forever. And that is really hard to come back from because sometimes the quitting is what bleeds out into the rest of our life, that you're then afraid of failing in every area of your life. But if you look at failures as being on the

same level as the achievements. What can you learn from both? How can you build from both of those things? And when I look back on the Grand Slam series, I look at all these four races, it wasn't like I got to Moab and I had everything figured out and I had a smooth race. Moab was horribly painful. Everything I dealt with in the previous three races, all of it came back with a vengeance for that fourth one. Because my body was broken down. It was tired. And I couldn't escape anything in that. The reason why I was able to cross in first place was purely about perspective. The two girls chasing me were incredible athletes. They were fast.

They were gritty. But I kept on going back to what I knew was true and what I had learned in the previous three races. And learning that because I had those failures and those discomforts in those initial races, I now know what to do at Moab. And I kept thinking, wow, I'm so glad I went through this before because if I was experiencing this right now, I probably would drop out of the race because I was so miserable, but I had gained the confidence through the setbacks. I had understood what I was capable of enduring and I kept on pushing because I'd been there before. And I think that we can take all of our

failures and instead of looking at them as like, I'm not valuable. I'm not capable and just be like, oh yeah, I remember making a huge mistake. Now I'm going to make it better. Now I'm going to go back and try again. And it's going to be even better. It's an adaptation. Yeah. Failures create adaptations that facilitate growth. I remember when I first met you. It was right after you won Badwater or shortly after. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't know you very well at that point. So I didn't know kind of what person you were or who you would be. But there's a lot of people that accomplish something big like that in their life, winning bad water or getting this massive promotion that it's all they ever wanted. And they will hang their hat on that.

And you could have easily hung your hat on being the bad water champion for the rest of your life. It's like when you go to a restaurant and it's 2003 and they have a sign out in front that says, best cheeseburger in town, 2008. It's so true. It's like, come on guys. Are you still, are you still proud of that? Yeah. You know, you see it all over the place. I'm just like mind blown when I see that. Like, why are you hanging your hat on the past? Yeah. And people will continue to hang their hat on previous accomplishments. And I think something that both you and I can both relate to is that we don't hang our hats when any of our previous accomplishments, we pay respect and recognize. But the only thing that matters is where we're going in the future.

Yes. That's like saying last year I was parent of the year. So that gives me a free pass for the rest of my life to be a shit parent. You know? Yeah. So a lot of people will, again, hang their hat on these accomplishments and they will tie their identity to where that hat is hung for the rest of their life. I'm very curious. You're obviously a professional runner. You've done all these races. You've won massive races. You've just won

Moab. Like your resume is just, it's stacked with wins and losses. Successes and in DNFs. Do you identify as a runner? Like when someone's like, who is Sally McRae, do you say, I'm a runner. Or like what, what, how do you identify? What are you most proud of that title or your identity in life? I mean, I've been asked this before. Just straight up, what are you most proud of? And hands down, I'm most proud of being a mom.

And there are moments. I remember when we got home from Moab. and I had a good sleep and I woke up in the morning and I'm sitting with Eddie on the couch with a cup of coffee and I look at him on like I can't believe I won that race like and it's over and it's done and you know that was super cool but I think I've always operated in that way like I I've known for a long time I think it's just through lessons and even like I was saying earlier like when you lose a lot, you start to understand what is the most important thing in life. And, you know, winning Badwater was a dream come true. That was something I actually dreamed about for like a

decade. And winning Moab was something that was a very quiet goal of mine when I first signed up for the grandson. I'm like, that would be the raddest thing to win the last race. And that's probably the one where I think I will do the best because there were these long sections of like 27 miles where you just run flat and just the way the course was laid out. I was like there's that plays do a lot of my strengths and you know some of the other courses I was like oh my gosh it's going to be a lot harder for me like I know my strengths and weaknesses I'm not like powerful and everything as as a runner and but I thought man that would be like so cool but when I go out into the world and I'm with my family and I get up every day, you know, to just do normal

human things. I like to think of myself as someone that is always growing and someone that is trying new things. I mean, I just released a book. I love writing. I've loved writing since I was a little girl. You know, we're working a little bit more on our podcast. I love to speak. I love to encourage people. but there have been many moments in my life, especially after I got signed with Nike, when I was criticized for my size. And it was like, I can't believe she, there's no way she's a professional runner. Like, she's so big or she's this. And at first that hurt because even today, I will get approached in the gym. This actually, the last two times I went to the gym last week, I had someone asking if I was training for a figure competition. And then someone else asked if I was a cyclist,

because in their words, your legs are so huge, you have to be one of those, like, century cyclists. Yeah, quad pumps. Yeah, quad pumps. So, and I really get a kick out of that. I used to originally be like, man, maybe I shouldn't be a runner. Like, I don't look like a runner. It doesn't fit like the ideal, like the societal norm. But I've also felt like it's super cool, though, that.

people look at me and they don't think of me as a runner. Like maybe that is actually really, that's actually really precious because I don't want to just be known as Sally the runner. And I think too, I've also been very specific. I mean, for years, people always want to know how I eat. Are you paleo? Are you vegan? I mean, so many people are so shocked that I'm not vegan, you know? And I'm like, why? Well, most ultra runners are. I'm like, they are. One plus one equals two. Yeah. And I guess a part of me like, I don't like being put into a box. I don't want to be so predictable.

I don't want you to walk up to me and think that you have me figured out because this probably goes into a lot of my messaging. And maybe it stems just from my childhood where I just felt like I was so compressed and downsized and judged so much for who I was and made to feel so less by my dad. And I believed a lot of that stuff,

even going into my adult years. And what I believed to be true is that we as humans are so vast. There's so much about us that even if we studied ourselves for our whole lives, like we wouldn't be able to get to the end of us. Like, humans are amazing. And if we could really appreciate who we are uniquely and understand how loved we are,

like I really believe we'd be capable of so much more. And so I think when I go out into public, I don't want to be put into a box. I don't want to be, oh, because you're this horoscope or you're this number or because you do this sport, this is who you are. And then that's how I'm going to interact with you because I already know everything about you because all the labels you wear. And so it is kind of fun to be known for other things. I think it has been exciting for me to pursue other things that I'm passionate about and live my life very differently than other people would expect. And I've, I've shared this before. Like when I got signed, I already had kids. Like, and my kids were, they were like five and seven

when I got signed. That is not usual. That's not common for a runner and a woman, especially like a mom to get signed to run professionally. And I, I really love that. And I also don't live my life probably in a very typical pro athlete way. You know, I help out in the kids' classrooms when they were in elementary school and my training is all over the place and it's not like I'd probably like I know Cunningham is your coach like it would be a nightmare if you looked at how I train because it's all over the place because it's it's crafted in accordance to my unique personal family you know and so I love the idea of carving out a life that is authentic to my unique journey to my story and whatever that looks like it's okay if it doesn't fit into the mold or the expectation of the world and what people

want me to be. And so I want to move through my life. I want to get to that finish line. Being so proud that I took this, I really feel like it's a blessing and a gift to be able to do what I do. And to be able to do it for so long and to be able to endure the miles in the mountains year after year after year without having sidelining injuries, I don't take that for granted. and I believe with my whole heart, like, there's something, there's a greater purpose as to why I'm built that way. But so I want to get to the end of my life knowing, like, Sally was someone who was loving. Sally was someone who encouraged me. Sally was someone who lived authentically. And also there was all these other things that brought her joy in her life that she did. So whether that Sally is mom,

Sally is the runner, Sally is the writer, Sally is the teacher, Sally is the coach. Like, I hope that within all those things that love was the brightest thing about me. I kind of want to hang out there for a little bit and unpack that. Yeah. So I think it's super important. You said at the end, authentic, but I was thinking that the whole time. A lot of people will say that. Like, they're showing up as their authentic self.

Yeah, hashtag authentic. But I know for a fact, like for you, that's not, there's no bullshit behind that. even thinking about like last night even your style. Last night you walk in like with this badass Nike jacket and bell bottom pants with stripes. I'm like, man, that's a vibe. And I keep thinking back to, I think it was a trend on Instagram like a year ago around Halloween. It was like the Halloween starter kit. And then it'd say like a trend.

Yes. Like the hybrid athlete, the runner. Yes. I know you're talking about. Uh-huh. And it was like the, you know, the five to ten pieces that this person would be wearing or using or things that they're saying. And it's so true. And I think people are, I've been here before.

Now, I've done this. I'm guilty. We're afraid to express who we actually are and what we're into and what we're passionate about because we're afraid of it being criticized or judged. Oh, yeah. So we choose a, we flip through a magazine, we point in a picture of someone, what they're wearing, what they're listening to, what they're driving, what they smell like, all these things. And we curate our life, our look around that. And it's predictable. I can tell by looking at that person where they get their coffee, what kind of music they listen to.

I love it. Yeah. If they're plant-based or carnivore. Yeah. what like what they wear like all those things and there's nothing wrong with that there's nothing wrong with being into these things that totally i agree different communities or or just groups are into but where i think you have to challenge yourself and some of these decisions is do i actually like this stuff am i actually trying to express myself and my authentic self because i really should be

pursuing that. When I look at you, yes, like, you are a runner, but I don't just think Sally McRae, the runner. I see mother and wife and entrepreneur and author and podcaster and someone who's got like this sick style and like truly just showing up as you. I mean, you should be super proud of that. I look up to that tremendously because it's challenging. It's hard. And it can be scary and tough. But if people would truly, if we truly live out our authentic self, you can be at peace. You can be fulfilled.

You can be purposeful and passionate. And actually not just love other people, but love yourself too. That's freaking cool. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that. And I admire that about you too when I walked into your new office. it was why I said, I'm so proud of you. Because in the short time that I've gotten to know you, you are one who takes risks and will take a big step in whatever direction that you are fired up

about and you'll just try. And just seeing what you've done lately, I'm not going to expose anything, is so exciting. I mean, it's like, wow, I wasn't expecting that. And that is freaking rad. Like, And I love being around people like that because I know it takes courage. And it takes a confidence in believing who you are. And I know that, and what you had said earlier, I'm like, oh my gosh, that was so me. When I first started alterning, I literally looked at pictures of people. And that's how I chose my first outfit for my first race. Right.

Like, I look back at now, I would never wear that. Like, but I did because that's what I saw everyone else wearing. And so I've been at so many points of insecurity. a lack of self-belief and being afraid of failing, being afraid of what other people think of me and wanting to please. I mean, people pleasing, wow, like, that's, like, you just want everyone to be happy around. You just want everyone to pat you on the back, right? But man, that can, that is a fast track to destroy your dreams and who you are real quick. I even, I wrote about this actually recently. I did a little tiny post and I basically said, like, it wasn't earth-shattering

that happened, I just decided that I wasn't going to get to the end of my life and realized that I had pleased everyone. I wanted to get the end of my life knowing that I did everything that was in my heart, that I loved. And I was surrounded by the people that I loved. And I like pursued the things that I was passionate about. I pursued the gifts that were that were given to me. And I I use them in a real way. But it's so easy to build a life that is based on what people expect of us. Because that feeling of rejection, that feeling of failure, that feeling of being on the outside of not being invited in, it hurts.

And it's raw and it's isolating. And like, I don't want to be there. Like, I need to be right here in the comfort zone where I'm not rocking the boat. No one's looking at me. Like, I'm just accepted because I'm just doing what everyone else is doing. McKenzie is in this process of choosing which college to go to. There's three. Well, actually, she's already chosen.

But in the process, Eddie and I committed to each other privately without McKenzie knowing. I said, Eddie, we cannot tell McKenzie what school to go to. And we cannot try to sway her in whichever direction. That's actually not our job. She's worked so hard. and we genuinely are so proud of her. She's being recruited.

Well, her top three picks. Her final three was Oregon, Colorado, and NAU. All of them top ranked in the country. And I told Eddie, I was like, we actually, the one thing we communicate to her is that we are proud of her hard work. She has finally arrived at the day that she has been training for since the time she was eight years old when she first joined her first run club team. And the worst thing, and I hear this so often, is when kids say, well, I'm going to be a lawyer, I'm going to be a doctor, I went to this school because that's what made my parents proud.

I didn't really want to do that, but that's what the family does. Everyone in my family does this, so that's what I'm doing. Or I chose this school, or this is what was expected of me, or I chose this career, or I married this person, or I lived in this city, because that was the expectation. and it's very easy to go in that way when it's your family, when it's people that love you and you love them. And I said, I want to teach McKenzie a lesson in this that I'm going to have a sit down with her. So I did.

I sat McKenzie down and I said, sweetheart, I know you're really struggling with what school to pick. And she would constantly asking Eddie and I questions, what about this, what about this and this? And I know that she was looking for validation. What are they leaning toward? What's going to make them happy? So I told her,

I said, McKenzie, when you think of the school that gets you the most excited, when you think of the coaches who are going to be the best coaches for you, if you for a second think about me and dad first and you think, well, I do want to go here, but like I know dad and mom are be stoked if I go here. I go, I want you to stop yourself and don't make that decision. I want you to pick what's right for you, what you're excited about, where you actually want to be, where you understand you work this hard and you get to choose. And just remember that we are cheering for you every step of the way. And there isn't a right or wrong in this decision. We are so proud of where you are today and who you are and where you're going. And we will be your cheerleaders. We are in your corner. We are on your

team no matter what. And the biggest smile came over her face when I said that. And she was like, okay. And she from that time on would never, like we could not tell what school that she was going to pick. And sometimes we like tease her like, do you know now? Like which one is it going to be? And she was just very quiet couple weeks. And then she finally made her decision. And Eddie and I celebrated that. And we told her over and over, you can't make a wrong decision. And I think that there are times in all of our life where we were kind of kicked out of a circle because we didn't do what everyone else was doing. And those feelings and emotions are so powerful. Those feelings and emotions, they rule our life. And that's kind of what I was saying in the beginning. When I was in the

middle of Coca-a-Donough, it was like I can let feelings and emotions that are so powerful totally take me out of this race, or I can focus on what I love and what I really believe that I'm capable of, and that is the goal that is 250 miles away from where I'm standing right now. And that's what I'm going to focus on, not the feelings and the emotions. And I think it's, it's so important that that is the way that we live. We don't live based on emotion. And I'll be honest, like, yeah, I love the feelings that comes with falling in love and like the, you know, I'm sure you remember Charlie's first birthday, just that feeling like I cannot believe she's turning one. She'll never remember that birthday. You will. You know.

but realizing I have a one-year-old daughter. Like those are wonderful feelings, emotions. And we were made to have those things. It's a part of our life. But it's amazing how if we let those get the best of us, if we let the feelings and emotions rule who we are, man, we can make really bad decisions and do things that we regret. You talked about pursuing things that other people want for you

as opposed to what you want for yourself. I think where it's, it's hard sometimes is that when people are pushing us towards an answer and we don't want to follow that same path, going against that advice feels selfish. Yes. So, you know, everyone's pushing you towards this college or this school. You don't want to go there, but you're thinking, well, if I choose another school, is that a selfish decision? Maybe I should just be selfless and just go with what everyone else wants for me. And I think once you do that long enough, it becomes a habit.

You get really good at avoiding what you actually want for yourself because it feels selfish. When in reality, it's not. If you keep living your life for other people and not yourself, you'll never be happy. you'll never feel fulfilled. And that's a massive issue. It's something to realize and recognize that pursuing a passion that you truly want, a goal that you really want, putting in the work, committing to that, making it happen,

that is not selfish at all. People shouldn't feel bad about pursuing goals and passions. And if someone's making you feel bad about that, it's probably the wrong person having your life. Right. Well, and I think too that you brought up such a good point because sometimes the decisions that we make, yeah, it is affecting somebody maybe in a negative way. And so I always like to go back to, yeah, we don't want to be selfish, self-consumed,

everything is about me. I mean, that's a whole other topic because we live in a very self-focused world right now. You know, everything is about how, like, do I expose all the wonderful things about myself and make myself happy. I mean, even these discussions of if they don't serve you, then get rid of them. And it's like, that's actually, like, if you really think hard about that, are you basically saying that that's who you are to other people? Like, are you so good at serving other people? Are you so good at loving other people that you're never in a bad spot that you should never, like people should never walk away from you? You know, the reality is that we are all faulty and that we can all be selfish.

But if we're constantly in a place of like who's going to serve me and if you don't serve me, then you're out of here. I mean, I can't think of a more selfish way to approach life. But what if we actually approached everything we did and asked, is this root? in love. And sometimes I've had to make hard decisions and realize like, okay, that that probably wasn't very loving. That probably wasn't considerate of other people's feelings or time or energy. And sometimes we need to do things simply to show that we love someone. You know, I remember when when I first met Eddie, I knew that he loved golf. I hated golf. Like I couldn't think of a more boring activity. Now I do like it. And part of it is because I understood.

and how passionate he is about it and all the wonderful memories he has of playing with his dad, his grandpa, and his uncle, which he still does today. And, but when he and I were dating and he was planning to propose to me, he proposed to me on a golf course.

I mean, he cut open a golf ball. And, like, I'm horrible at golf. And we, like, we had done, like, mini golf before, but, like, he loves golf so much that he thought, I'm going to propose to her on a golf course. So he got a golf ball, he cut it in half, filled it with

Velvet put the ring in there. He had some friends. We went over to Catalita Island. He had some friends secretly follow us on the golf course and they hid the ball in the seventh hole. And I remember it was like the worst game ever. I was so frustrated at this game. I didn't know he was going to propose to me. But I remember at one point as we got closer to the seventh hole, I picked up my golf ball and I threw it up on the green. I was like, I hate this game. It's so frustrating. And then, of course, like we finally get up in the green and I put my ball into the hole and I see, you know, this ring box and Eddie slides down on his knee and he proposes to me. I remember during our engagement thinking about how disinterested I am in running, I mean, in golf. And I realized I was like,

I'm not interested in all in that sport, but this is something that Eddie has always equated some of the most meaningful and precious times with his family. Like he grew up since he's a little boy, always going out on the green with his family and playing golf. And to this day, it's like one of his favorite pastimes. And so during our engagement, I thought, I'm going to go get golf lessons. I have the worst hand-eye coordination. I'm still like really bad at it. But I remember thinking my mind, like, this is, I'm doing this because I love him.

And even though, like, I don't necessarily like it, I don't totally enjoy it, we have now been able to go and play golf games together and we have the best time and that is actually the best part of it the best part is like our enjoyment and he's so patient and he'll you know he teaches me certain things but i just love riding on riding around in the golf cart you know that's like the best part steady eddy steady eddy yeah but i think about how when we can ask in those hard questions like okay are you being selfish or am i being selfish are you asking me to do something because that's actually rooted in fear that you have? Is it rooted in you being selfish and prideful or control? Because sometimes that happens. Sometimes people can make us feel like what we're

doing is wrong or bad or stupid because they want to control what we're doing. And so that kind of falls into a whole other conversation. But I always like to just the go-to question is, is what I'm doing, is it rooted in love? And if it's not, how can I be better? And sometimes that just means being flexible. I want to do this. Okay, that means I need to change this and turn this. And I, yes, I'm doing this with you and we're going to change the schedule here, but I'm still going towards this goal. And it's going to be messy and all over the place. And that's okay, because nothing is perfect. That's not how it, you know, it's supposed to be. But we can also ask ourselves, am I not doing this because I'm afraid? am I not doing this because all I want to do is please the other person.

And if your answer to that is yes, that's why I'm not doing it, then go back and revisit that again. And remember that you should love yourself and those around you, not just those around you. You should love the one life you're given. There's a purpose for it. There's a value in it. And you should love that one journey, that one story that you get to write. So go write it well, but make sure it's rooted in love.

I love that. Honestly, taking a lot away from this conversation today, as our daughter, Charlie is getting older and growing, we're reaching these pivotal points, which I'm sure you experienced when your kids were younger. It's hard. Where you ask yourself, am I making the right decision? Like they're now like, you know, Charlie is growing and changing. Are we setting the conditions properly to make sure that she grows and adapts? Is she getting enough social time with kids? Is she getting out enough? Are we working on her development skills enough?

What I'm taking away from this whole conversation is stop worrying about all that stuff. Just love your kid. So they truly show and embody love. And that will guide you through decisions that you're struggling to make. But you can't gamify raising a child. You can't gamify a relationship. Because once you do, incentives just aren't aligned. And it neglects all the aspects of love, which is the most important ingredient.

100%. You know, Steph actually posted a story. I love following your stories because both you guys post about Charlie all the time. like want to put her in my suitcase and take her home. She's great. She's so cute. But I was laughing because I think it was shortly after you moved in here. So you had boxes out.

And Charlie had her whole room set up and what was she playing with? The box. She loves the boxes. Just calling in and books. She's calling in and out of a packing box. And she's got all these toys around her, this beautiful room that stuff decorated. I mean, it was just so precious. But I remember looking at that and just smiling and really,

remembering my kids being the same way. And I remember Eddie and I had actually made a conscious decision then, you know, especially, you live in Southern California and like for the most part, I lived on the other side of town. Like we didn't have a ton, but like there's a lot of wealth in Southern California. And if you stay there, you're born and raised there. And it's, you just kind of think that's how the whole world it is and it's not. But I remember Eddie and I living in this little condo with the kids, a little two bedroom condo. And they were both sharing a room. And we told each other, we're not buying them a lot of toys. Like, we're not going to be those parents that just every time that you go to the store

that you're going to buy something. And it's going to be like your birthday, Christmas, you get some new toys. You got extended family that bring over the random toy. But it was almost like an experiment to see how they would then interact. And I still think they had a ton of toys regardless, like way more than I. I had growing up. But it was really interesting to see that I would take the kids out on the trails for hours with me. And the way that they would get into the trees and like go after frogs and we look at deer. And I mean, they would go out and, you know, sometimes do five, six,

seven miles when they were like three and five. And it wasn't all, it wasn't like hardcore running or anything. But I would always say we're going to go adventure. And I would put little packs on them. And I'd bring, you know, a pack full of food. I'd bring like Snickers bars and trails. mix and anything to keep them out there. But to this day, we have some of the best memories and the most fun just being in the dirt. And McKenzie has chosen to go to a school in the mountains. And from the time she was five years old, we every year have spent time on the trails and the mountains together. And she would tell me from the time she was little, she would say, mom, I can't wait to go run. We always talk about so much fun stuff. Like that was like when she was really little,

she would say that. And to this day, that's what she equates that with. Now even while she's in high school, and after track season, it's like the first thing she says, I can't wait until we go on our mountain adventure. Now I'm like released from the claws of my coaches. Like I can go do whatever I want to do kind of thing. And I tell her, I go, I always think of you and Isaiah now every time I race, every time in the mountains. We spent all those years adventuring, laughing and having those conversations. And she is now equating that now as she makes her choice. Like she loves the mountains. But I think that there's some roots in there. She feels so loved there. Oh, for sure. You know? And I think that that is always the root of everything. We don't need more stuff. We don't need to keep

building up our piles, we need to make sure that we know who we are and that we are loved and the people around us are loved. I mean, that is more powerful than anything. I mean, it goes back to the beginning of our conversation. When you said goodbye to your mom, she just wanted to hold your hand. She didn't want you to bring her,

you know, the birthday present that you got her 10 years ago. Yeah. Right. That's powerful. Well, Sally, I look up to you tremendously. Likewise. on a lot of different levels. And I'm going to open up this invitation here where if you are ever in Nashville, I want you to come back on the podcast.

Absolutely. Because, you know, certain podcasts I do, like, there's an intent. Like, we're trying to get a message across or, like, share a story. But I didn't look at any of my notes this entire time we were talking because I didn't need them, right? like we can just sit and riff and there's so much we can riff about. I think because, you know, we share a lot of past traumas of losing our moms. And we've learned through running and building businesses and connecting with people. And I've grown a lot personally and professionally over the last couple years.

I'm sure you've grown a lot personally and professionally over your lifetime. And there's a lot we can continue to talk about and share with people. And then when we come together, it's just like, it's powerful. Yeah. We recognize this at dinner last night, which we should have recorded as a podcast. I know. Because that was great. It was so raw.

It was so good. The conversation was great. The food was good. We probably would have had to cut some of the conversation out. We had to cut some of it, which is how I know you're my people. I'm like, we are safe. There's certain people I can be like super vulnerable with. Yeah.

And I'll just let it all rip and then. Oh, yeah. You know, like, but those are the deep, meaningful relationships we're talking about in the beginning of this podcast. So, Sally, I appreciate you. Thank you for being on the show again. And she's a great person. So thank you. Thank you so much.

I appreciate your kindness, Nick. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely.