The Nick Bare Podcast - 046: The Impact of Sleep On Your Hormones, Routine and Optimization with Todd Anderson

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

I'm excited to have sleep expert Todd Anderson on the podcast today. We discuss his journey from being a walk-on for Michigan State's football team to becoming a leading voice in sleep science. Todd shares insights into how sleep affects all areas of our lives, from hormones to cognitive performance and all-around well-being. Todd shares his knowledge of simple yet effective ways to optimize your sleep and get into healthy habits and routines. Enjoy! Save 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio Follow for more:  IG: https://www.instagram.com/nickbarefitness/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@nickbarefitness Keep up with Todd here: IG: https://www.instagram.com/toddanderson42_/ Topics: 0:00 Intro 1:41 Welcome 2:34 Walk on at Michigan State 17:44 Mind and body transformation 21:43 How insecurities can shape your future 26:41 What’s the worst that can happen? 33:59 The impact of sleep 40:52 Sleep’s effect on hormones 43:33 Prioritizing sleep 46:48 Optimizing sleep 51:56 Sleep routines 57:12 Adding to your sleep routine 1:01:30 Mouth taping 1:13:45 Saunas and cold plunges

People are now respecting sleep much more than they used to. Yeah, I think they're starting to wrap their head around the idea that it's not about feeling tired. You know, it's not just being sleepy and being low energy. It's really about, like, cognitive function and how efficient you can be in certain tasks and decision making and emotional intelligence. Like it's things that are subconscious, right? Like the things that are really impacted by sleep are like things like your reaction time, your ability to read people's faces, even like your facial express. and matching your emotion, like that stuff you can't like out tough or you can't push through or, you know, try to act like it's not affecting you. Sleep is a tool in a way that's unlike any other

where it's really just making you better and more efficient and like you said, optimizing these different portions of your life. It's not about feeling tired and having energy. It's about literally like becoming like the most streamlined efficient version of yourself. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank you for tuning in and supporting the brand. Now, I have spent the last decade plus of my life building bare performance nutrition. And we create effective supplements that you can trust to support your wellness, endurance, and performance goals. We offer high quality, great tasting weight protein powders, effective pre-workouts,

superfoods, sleep support, electrolytes, and much more. So if you want to support the content that we produce and the message that I am sharing through my content and on this podcast, I would greatly appreciate it if you went to BPNSups.com. And you can use code Nick Bear 10 to save 10% off your next order. So thank you guys. I appreciate you. And let's dive into the show.

Today on the podcast, we have Todd Anderson, who recently moved to Nashville, a few months prior to me moving, all settled in. You've been a warm welcome here to the Nashville area. You've let me use your sauna, your cold plunge. You've optimized my sleep. A lot of things I want to talk about today, but welcome. Yeah, I appreciate it, man. I mean, that's Nashville for you. I feel like it's the most welcoming city there is.

It's been so welcoming. I mean, it's been, I will say, this has probably been the best year my life and a lot has to do with just the community of the city. And you've lived all over the place. Yeah, St. Louis, Naples, Miami, Chicago, New York, you know, Detroit. So pretty much the whole East Coast, I feel like. And it's, it feels unlike anywhere else I've ever lived for sure. That's great. Yeah.

Well, I want to talk about a lot in this, in this conversation in this podcast. But before we dive into it, I do want to give some context into your background. And I thought the best way to kick off that context is to explain the walk-on mentality, the mindset. You have walk-on tattoo on your body. I do. it's on my wrist. It's a recent tattoo. Similar the way that I have going there. Yeah, I realized that after I got it when I was, when I was, you're moving here. I saw it and I was like, oh, it's like the same exact spot. It's a great spot for a tattoo. You always see it. Always see it. Um, it's actually in the

Michigan State jersey font. Love that. So yeah, I mean, you know, I feel like it's just a reminder myself that I feel like, you know, when you really like push the envelope and push the limits of what you're trying to do, like even physically, but also from a business perspective and just opportunities, I feel like there's so many times I feel so out of place and uncomfortable, you know, and have this imposter type feeling that, like, I don't deserve to be here or be in this room or, you know, have this platform, be on this stage. And, you know, it's just a reminder that, like, that's how it's been my whole life. You know, I've, like, my mantra has been to put myself in situations and be around people that exceed my abilities or capabilities or talent level, whatever it is, and eventually

you adapt to those surroundings. So I think a lot of people, you know, when they're a walk-on and they kind of earn their way. You know, that's what it's about is like earning the jersey we used to say, but it's kind of just like earning your place. But in the same breath, it's a reminder that if you're doing the right things, you're going to feel pretty uncomfortable. And often, and a lot of times you're going to feel almost like insecure and have this imposter type feeling because it takes a while for you to recognize that you belong there. And sometimes it takes a while for you to earn your place and earn your right to be there. But it's just a little constant reminder, a little subtle nudge when I'm, you know, feeling a certain way. Yeah. And that all

started when you walked on to Michigan State. Yeah. On the football team. Yeah, it was by far the hardest thing I've done, you know, mentally, physically, but it was a dream come true. And I can't even say it was a dream come true because up until six months before I actually went to Michigan State, it wasn't even in the universe of possibilities. Like it was so far-fetched that, you know, it was similar to me just saying, like, I'm going to be the CEO of Tesla next year. Like, it's never going to happen. Like, it's not even on my mind because I thought there was a zero percent chance anything like that could ever happen. We talked about this at dinner.

Yeah. But I'd love to like share more of the story with the audience. Yeah. So basically, I mean, I think another thing is just like saying yes to every opportunity has served me so well in life. And the more things I say yes to, the more good things seem to happen. And this is an example. So I was pretty set to go to a Division III school and play football, maybe football and baseball. Baseball is my best sport. And the summer before my senior year, I happened to jump into a seven-on-seven during the summer. So we were playing seven-on-seven. And I was a lineman and linebacker, so I didn't even do seven-on-seven. But I just showed up to kind of support our team. Like, you know, watch our quarterbacks throw, whatever. And my dad was an assistant coach. So I just showed up and to hang out with the team. And our tight end didn't show up. And I never played tight-end. But, you know, I had been, you know, lifting before school. I got myself in like six.

significantly better shape than I'd ever been in, jumped in a tight end, and I made a couple of one-handed catches, and just had a really good day. And this was at Jackson High, which is the biggest school in Michigan. So their head coach happened to see me make a couple catches. All right. So fast forward to May of the following year. Like, I'm going to school in less than six months.

Michigan State had a new coaching staff, and their coach went to Jackson High to see, hey, do you have anyone that potentially, we have a couple walk-on spots available, anybody they would be interested and the coach is like, I don't have anybody at that level, but if you should talk to anybody in the county, go talk to Todd Anderson in Napoleon High School.

And I'm from like the smallest high school. Nobody's ever played Division I won football. I don't know if anybody's really played Division II football from my high school. Like we had Bring Your Tractor to School Day. That's how small of the school we're talking about. So like out in the country. Oh, in the country. Yeah, I had a John Deere shirt.

I had a cowboy hat in my seventh grade football picture. And, you know, I grew up going to Michigan State games with my dad. my dad used to work in the recruiting office as a student sending out letters to recruit. So diehard Michigan State fan. And I grew up watching these games, but was nowhere near the talent level to get recruited. And I got called to the office like they do for, you know, D3 coaches come in. And I walked down and I saw Michigan State's helmet on Coach Shredwell's shirt. And I was like, what, like what's going on?

My first thought is like, oh, there must be some D3 school that has the same logo as Michigan State. that I don't know about. Right. And then, you know, we start talking and, you know, they have a couple walk-on spots available. And fast forward, like Coach Antonio calls me and basically gives me the opportunity to come walk on. And my mind was just blown. Like, my head was spinning. But in the same breath, I was so nervous because, like, I mean, there was such a gap between me and a starting Division I football player, especially Michigan State, that I questioned what I should do.

So I literally made a pros and cons list with my mom. And we still have it. My mom and my dad, we sat in the living room. Pros and cons, you know, of going to the Division III school, Michigan State. And there was a lot of pros to Adrian College, which was the school. And I'll never forget the last thing in Michigan State was like, will you regret this? And knowing that I would probably regret it the rest of my life, I didn't just try, like, that was a deciding factor. And I've probably, I pretty much carried that my entire life.

Like, I always asked myself, any decision, I'm like, Am I going to regret? Am I going to be second-guessing this? If the answer is yes, I tend to take a chance. So it served me well. I ended up, well, the fourth day of camp, I wanted to quit. I mean, I was, I'll never forget. I got out of the car.

You know, I'm my only child. My parents and I, we still talk about, like, when we drove up to Michigan State to drop me off, the car was dead silent. Like, I think we were all just nervous. Very nervous. And I get out of the car, and I saw Pete Clifford, who was like our starting left tackle. He was like six, seven, three-thirty, hair down to his shoulders and just like the baddest looking dude of all time. And I remember thinking like, I don't even know what I got myself

into. But I'm happy to be here. And my goal was like, if I can just be on the team, maybe I get on some special teams my senior year, like that's a win. That's still a dream come true. Right. But from that point, you know, the first semester was hell. I mean, I was struck. I was a math major. I'm taking, you know, all these calculus classes, you know, school is just like hitting me right in the face. Morning lifts, not sleeping well, you know, cultural adaptation. I mean, I'm from this small country town. There's people from all over the United States here and just making friends. I mean, everything you can imagine is being thrown at me. And I had a tough go the first semester. And I wanted to quit probably every single day. But like I said, like, when you're in that

situation you're around people that, like, exceed your capabilities at the time. Like, it pulls the best out of you. And then by the end of that first semester, you know, I kind of turned to the weight room and started lifting with my roommate, like, after practice and going to the I-M building and doing extra stuff. And by the end of that first semester, I was like, I think I can play here, you know, and then moving to the spring, in the spring ball, all of a sudden I'm getting reps with, like, second string. And, you know, my entire mindset shifted. What's that process look like when you get invited to walk on? Yeah.

How much, like you say you show up, how much time does the team, do the coaches give you to say, like, you either stay on the team and you get a chance or you're cut? You're not making it. Yeah. I mean, so I was what's called a preferred walk on, which means basically like you're going to come, you're going to have a place on the team in the fall. You're not going to have a scholarship, but you're going to get invited to camp. right so it's it's basically like so so i i was pretty certain that i was going to make it through camp and be there for the fall semester that was pretty much it and honestly they could have cut me in any time so i constantly had a feeling of like you know i just got to hang on here and there were some

days where i literally thought that i might just get cut like they might come up with me and be like i'd be scared to walk by cost Antonio in the hall one because he's he was super intimidating guy of two, you know, I really felt like I didn't belong. And it wasn't like this imposter syndrome like I'm talking about. Like, I literally did not belong. Like I was, I was not good enough to be there at the time. But I also had a pretty high ceiling and was able to adapt like relatively quickly. So, yeah, so I showed up and, you know, I knew I had a spot in the semester, but it felt like, you know, I was just trying to earn my stay like day by day. Which isn't very like, Not a very settling feeling.

No, I can imagine. Yeah. You feel like you're on the chopping block at all times. All times. You're waiting to look over your shoulder and someone is there to deliver the bad news. Yeah, that was it. I mean, that's how every day pretty much felt. But you ended up starting.

Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I ended up, like I said, I put a ton of time in. And I got to a place where, like, I was, like, so that next year, I actually, like, Coast Antonio came out to me before camp and was like, we're going to give you a chance, like, to earn a starting spot. So I made a huge jump that first year and ended up tearing my quad, which is pretty gnarly, if anyone's seen it's pretty bad. And so I'm out that season. Next season, I have to have knee surgery. I'll never forget, you know, I'm rotating in with the twos, you know, getting some starting reps. And I make a cut, you know, a week out from our first game. And I feel like this sharp pain in my knee. And I broke off some cartilage on the head of my femur. And I had surgery. And, I remember, I had surgery right before our first game, which, you know, still hadn't played it down yet. Had surgery went to warm-ups, but I couldn't stay at the game because they didn't want me to get hit on the sidelines. And I remember, like, crutching away from the stadium at the first game, hearing the crowd in the background just by myself.

Like, so it's a ghost town outside of a stadium during a game. And like, that was a low. That was a big time low. I mean, luckily, my parents were there, and, you know, I have an amazing support system, but it was almost like you could hear your dreams happening without being there. And it was tough. And they're like, the further you get away from it and the noise and the sounds, like you hear it fading, it's almost your dreams are fading as well. And that's how it felt. You know, after three years of not playing it down, it felt like, like, is this ever going to happen? You know, almost felt like it was death. this did not to happen. And so that offseason, it came back. I tried to rehab my knee, but it just felt horrible. I couldn't extend it, sharp pain the entire time. And I remember walking to a lift right before spring ball, going into my fourth year now, not having not played.

I was talking to Kirk Cousins, he was walking with me. And I was like, Kirk, I think I have to hang it up. Like, I can't run. Like, I can't, you know, I'm like 75%. I don't know what else to do. The like didn't have any good answers like I'm wearing a knee brace that like you know pushes your knee lateral from the inside to try to alleviate the pressure on the certain part of my knee that's hurt and it just wasn't going well so I was like talking to Kirk and I was like I'm going to give spring ball a shot and see what happens and but if not you know this might be the end and I was actually coming to the piece with that trying to I mean relative and for spring practice. I'll never forget. We had a huge left tackle. His name was Henry Conway. I came off

the edge. I was playing at the end of the time. And I hit him pretty square like my shoulder and my leg was locked out and it just went like pop, like massive crack. And I was like, here we go. Here we go. This is going to be the fourth year and I'm not going to play. But didn't feel horrible afterwards. Woke up the next day and went to warm up in practice. All my pain was gone. Like, like, like it was brand new. And they think like whatever, you know, that chunk of bone that broke off earlier, they think that that like got dislodged somewhere

or moved around and, you know, ended up in a place that didn't cause any more pain and that was just floating around causing issues. And then I was 100%. So I'm not playing that fall and then really came into my own when I got moved to fullback. I mean, I was almost a different person

from playing defensive end of fullback because when I got moved to fullback, I felt like I felt like I was the tip of the arrow for our team. Like it was up to me to set the tone and I would do any, I would sacrifice anything like to take that person's soul like across from me. Like the mentality and the mindset and the place I would get to for games was, was dark and I played angry and not everybody has to do that, but, you know, it was very effective for me.

and I just felt like I came into my own and I thrived in that position just because, you know, I felt like such a selfless responsibility to literally set the tone for the entire game in that position. What would you do? What would you do? Like,

what would the process look like in terms of putting yourself there mentally? Well, I mean, I remember, I mean, I would listen to psychosocial by slipnot on the way to every single game. And I would convince myself that, you know, the guys across the ball for me, the guys on the other sideline were basically attacking my brothers, like my family. And I would get to such, you know, I would just create these stories in my head

and just, you know, basically pit them as my moral enemy. And by the time the game started, I would tell myself these stories. And, you know, I literally wanted to take their soul. Like, like, it wasn't like a, you know, I want to hit them hard and play hard, but I want to be okay. Like, I wouldn't do literally anything. And I would sacrifice my body. I would throw it in there. I think about, you know, just the, it just felt invincible. And I got myself to a place where I was stronger than everyone else.

I was bigger than everybody else. So there were very few times where I feel like I couldn't do that. And, you know, I would beg for the first play of the game to be like an ISO so I could just blow up the middle linebacker and set the tone for the rest of the game. So you think that from the time you walked on to that fourth year when you started, there was obviously a transformation and evolution in your body. You got stronger, you were hitting the weights more. You got more fit.

There's also this evolution and transformation of the mind as well to get to that place. Yeah, I think that they went hand in hand. I think even my whole life, you know, I, the reason I even had the confidence to try to go to Michigan State was the fact that I had got myself more physically fit and stronger. and I felt like I could at least line up like and look like I belonged. You know, I grew up, I was like an overweight kid. I wasn't in good shape.

So like I connect my confidence so much with like my fitness and how I feel and my strength. And so like that's what I leaned on. And then throughout the process of college, I gained so much confidence through that. By the time my senior year came around, I was the strongest guy in the team. You know, I was throwing up weights that I never even dreamed of. And I think because I knew that, even though that doesn't have a direct correlation with football all the time.

Like, knowing that in my head just made me be able to attack and just play in a way that I never could have before. This is something that I reference a lot, but you have to stack these wins in life. And as you stack more wins, which will also come with losses along the way, those wins build confidence. Definitely. And that confidence you build through these small wins that just accumulate, I mean, that confidence can become so strong that you get to a point where like there's there's literally

nothing I can't do like if I want to do it I'm going to make it happen yeah and I've gone through that transformation as well because when I was younger I had no confidence in myself where I set the bar of where I could get one day was so low that I knew it was achievable but I was afraid to set the bar too high because I feared failure. And I had imposter syndrome early on. But as soon as I started trying more things and stacking some of these wins that built more confidence, you finally get to a point where you're like, if it's something I want to do, I'm going to make it happen. It might take years and years and years to get there, but I'm going to make it happen. And that's such a powerful place to be. A hundred percent. Like, I've had the exact same evolution. I mean, I was constantly

doubting myself and now I feel like like you said like I don't think it matters like what bucket the win is in it could be like physical or business or emotional like I think the wins regardless they all breed confidence like it doesn't like because you're studying business I don't think it means it needs to be in the business world to to kind of give you confidence in that bucket I think it's all cumulative and I think um like one of my favorite quotes is like it doesn't take you 10 years to learn how to start a business. It takes you 10 years to become the person you need to be to start the business. And that's so true.

It's nothing to do with knowledge and everything to do with like stacking those wins and building that confidence, becoming a type of person that can lead a brand or an idea or a company. Yeah. I mean, our situations are kind of opposite where fitness and sports for you built the confidence to then apply that, mindset to building a business. Yeah. With dream recovery, for example. My confidence was built through building a business, which I then applied to, you know,

competitions and races and my fitness. So, yeah, like you said, one thing doesn't have to directly apply to that one area of focus of your life, but confidence in general can be applied to everything you're doing. Yeah. And everything that you try to do, it's like the magic. touch to it. Right. Yeah, what did you, what was like your biggest insecurity growing up? I mean, when I was younger, I had, I had an eating disorder. Okay. I had a lot of insecurity around that. More so of like people knowing and finding out that I had this eating disorder because for me,

it felt like a weakness. I didn't want people to judge me or evaluate me based off of this weakness. I thought and knew that I had. So that was an insecurity. But I'd say my biggest insecurity was, you know, from growing up in a small town as well. I would see these people in the world doing these amazing things, building businesses, bringing innovation to technology,

the world, politics, all these things. I knew that there were people out there doing that. but for me Nick Baer in Pomerah, Pennsylvania, they could have been aliens for all, for all I knew. Because there were such this separation in terms of what they're doing and what I thought I could do. So my dream, my plan when I was growing up was that I was going to go to college,

I was going to serve in the army, and then I was going to be a chicken farmer for the rest of my life. So my brother and I and my grandfather, we were looking at land in central Pennsylvania. We were talking to like Bell and Evans to work through chicken contracts. That's wild. And we're going to get chicken houses. We're going to get land, build chicken houses, and we were going to do broiler chickens for the rest of our lives.

Because that's what I knew. That's what was comfortable. And I was afraid to step out into what was uncomfortable and the unknown because the ceiling in which I, put in place was just it was low and when I finally realized in my time in the military actually gave me a lot of confidence I learned a lot there and I learned a lot and gained a lot of confidence in building a business do you have do you remember a distinct moment where you felt like that like do you remember the moment when you decided like that wasn't your path or was there something that like changed like drastically altered that it was probably

when I was in Korea in 2016 because up until that point the business was growing slowly but in 2016 I knew I had about a year left in the army I was about to transition back from South Korea to the states beginning my transition out of the military

back in the civilian life and I was very aware that the money I was making with BPN could not support me moving forward. So I had to put something in place or do something to make money outside of being in the military and building BPN. So by default, I was like, okay, well, when I get back from Korea and I start transitioning out of the military, I'll go pursue this chicken farming operation. I'll keep building BPN on the side and just see what happens.

That was as far as my plan went. But then when I got to Korea and I dedicated all my time into building the business, I went all. in and it finally started to grow, I didn't need that plan B of chicken farming any longer because I knew that I saw the opportunity. I saw what it could be because I finally got some more wins. I needed that win to give me the confidence to keep going. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder like, I was just thinking about because ours a little bit the opposite. I mean, the business side seems like you grew up. Like that was like an insecurity of like, like you said, they're aliens. So you didn't really know even how to pursue that.

I think mine might have been the opposite. One, just because the flow of me playing football, but two, like, my insecurity was so focused on my perception of myself and being overweight and not feeling good about, like, the image I was portraying that until I figured that out, I don't think I could have done anything. And as my fitness and as my image and confidence in myself,

not just physically, but just, you know, what's important in my value, has grown. I feel like everything else has just accelerated. So I feel like you almost have to attack like that main thing, that main insecurity before anything can happen on a big scale. I completely agree. Like I could have, like if I, if I didn't feel good about myself and my health and my wellness, like I could not be doing what I'm doing now. And it has nothing to do with knowledge and everything to do with confidence. Yeah. I mean confidence is it's easier said than done. You know, I'm sure there's people like listening to this right now thinking,

Yeah, you guys can talk about confidence because you're on the other side of it right now. But one of the questions I wish I would have been able to ask myself when I was younger, or I would encourage people to ask themselves, if there's something that you're curious about doing, but you're so afraid of the outcome, you're so afraid of the perceptions of other people, ask yourself the question, what's the worst that's going to happen? Definitely. I fail when everyone laughs at me.

Okay, well, it puts me in the same exact spot I'm in right now. Which when you're a kid is pretty bad sometimes. Like that is a big fear, but when you really break it down, I don't think people really do. I mean, what's the worst that can happen is one of the best internal processes to work through that anybody can do? Jen Cohen is a good friend. Like that's one of our big things in her book. But when you actually break it down, like you're pretty bulletproof when it comes down to how taking a risk can affect you. Most of it is literally just perception and how people feel or what people say about you.

But regardless, like, they probably aren't saying anything about you right now until you take a chance. So, you know, you're learning and you're getting your name out there and you're going to push that envelope of what you think you're capable of. Yeah. But, yeah, I think that I think I probably didn't ask myself that until I was 25 years old. Well, maybe when I went to Michigan State, honestly, that's probably the first time. I was like, what is the worst that can happen? I transferred to Adrian College. And at that point, I realized that, like, you know, I should do it.

And on the fourth day, my mom was calling Adrian Cowles trying to get my transcript together. So I was ready to fall back on that. But you need to stack those wins. Yeah. But you'll never be able to stack the wins if you don't try, if you don't put yourself out there. Because no one's selling wins. No. You can't buy wins.

You have to, you have to earn them. Definitely. And it's tough and it's painful. But like, when you see. stack enough of them and you earn enough of them. You look at the most successful people in the world. People try to figure out how they got there. What's the blueprint? What's the magic sauce? Like, where's the magic pill? They just stacked wins along the way. And they've taken so many hits and so many losses. Well, yeah, I think they just go. They just do. You have to. And like,

yeah, like, it's almost like getting at bats and baseball. It's like, if you just go after all these different ideas and try things, like you said, like you're going to lose, but it's not about the percentage of wins you get. It's about the total number of wins. Right. So, like, the more you do, the more wins you get, regardless of how many losses you have. And those build insane amounts of confidence. You can't cheat it either. Like, there's no way to like, oh, have these two really good wins and then all of a sudden have this massive amount of confidence. Like, it's a process. And there's no way to speed that up besides just doing more stuff. I was actually listened to a audio book a few weeks ago. I can't remember.

which book it was. I'm often listening to a few books at one time. I'll bounce back and forth. But they use the analogy of baseball players and batting averages. And if someone's batting 300, they're in the Hall of Fame. Yeah, they're great. That's three out of 10. Yeah. If you gave me those chances in anything else, I'd say, that's shit. No way. That sucks. But three out of 10 is a Hall of Fame player. So apply that to other things you do. You have to be willing to lose. You have to be willing to risk things, part of things along the process.

And if you get some wins, you're still moving forward. 100%. And even if you don't, it's like, it's so cliche. Like you learn from like your losses and your failures. But I'm a pretty analytical. Like I said, I was like a math major. And when I first got to college and it's like, you learn so much from just experience in general.

Like, so you really, you know, a loss is a pretty relative term. You know what I mean? Obviously, if a business folds or you don't accomplish a certain feat, that's one thing. But just the data and information you usually pull from that stuff is can be considered to win if you just reshape how you look at it. So obviously throughout college, you adapted. Yeah. You adapt to do a lot of different obstacles and situations, especially with a lot of your injuries.

And in preparation, this conversation today, I was on a run this morning, first run back since CIM. And right now the book I'm listening to is Hidden Potential by Adam Grant. And I knew I wanted to tie this, this quote that I heard today in the book into some part of this conversation today. And I think this is pretty applicable, talking about being adaptable. and he talks about in this book how the species in the world that continue to exist aren't always the smartest or the strongest, but the ones who are able to adapt. And I think it's something that everyone can take away.

It's something I, you know, when I'm reading or listening to a book, if there's something that hits me, I stop that run and I have to write it down on my notes. Because as we often try to be the smartest, or we think that the people are the smartest and the strongest are the ones who are going to outlive, out endure, everyone and everything else. It is always the people who are adaptable. And if you can find out how to be adaptable like you did in college to a point where year four you're starting and you go spend some time in the NFL, if you learn how to be adaptable,

you have such a huge chance of success in the longevity of life. 100%. I think if you could take one attribute of literally anything out there of, you know, ambition and, you know, being motivated or, you know, discipline. Literally any, any key word you could find, I think adaptability is the most powerful thing there is. And Mark Cuban always says that, you know, just being able to adapt to a situation. But I think on the flip side, the awareness to know that you are adaptable in almost any situation you're going to be in. is also something you have to protect because when you start seeing yourself in situations that if you do start to adapt, you need to get out of it. You know, you start hanging around the

wrong crowds, not being in the right place, not being around the type of things that, you know, replicate your values. You also start to adapt to that. And I've been in a situations where, you know, I've been around people or been doing things that, you know, I took a step back and I realized I am adapting to the situation and that's not the way that I want to be adapting. And it can be, it's a adapting is extremely powerful, both positive and negative. Yeah, I think you want to be adaptable in the sense of being resilient, but not being adaptable in the way of being a chameleon. Right. Exactly. And that's a hard line, you know, but I think comes back to values. Like, you know, if you're extremely comfortable with what you believe in and what's important to you,

usually you are adaptable, but I think when you're trying to please people, it's very easy to become a chameleon. 100%. So I want to kind of pivot the conversation a little bit after giving some context. Yeah. And I want to talk about sleep because obviously you are the founder of a sleep-based company. Sleep expert. And something that's interesting that I've found over these last couple years of having conversations with people and doing podcast. is I'll talk to athletes,

collegiate or professional. And you probably have some good context in this as well because you're married to an Olympian. Yeah. But I've talked to some of these athletes before. I'm like, you must be dialed in with everything you do from sleep, nutrition, to training.

And I asked them about their diet, what they eat before the game, what they eat after. And they're like, McDonald's? Yeah. And some of these people are just God-given talent in their DNA individuals. Some people will have to have to optimize everything.

So I'm sure you've seen two different spectrums in terms of athletes. When did sleep become an interest to you, a way to biohack, to optimize? I mean, sleep is essentially a performance-enhancing drug in its own way. Was there a moment where you were like, holy crap, I'm missing this huge, ability to transform. No, I think it was more of a gradual realization, but it did stem in college for sure. You used to read muscle and fitness and all those magazines. And because I felt so out of place, I did become obsessed with human performance. So I was pretty much trying to find an edge wherever it was. You have to. Yeah. And so I'd read, I was like nerd and out reading, you know,

research articles in college and skimming through all the stuff about hormone levels and testosterone and, you know, creatine was, like, kind of new at the time. So sleep kept popping up more and more. But there wasn't a lot of, there wasn't a lot of clinical data on sleep back then. Which year was this? This was like 2008, you know.

So there wasn't a lot of data in regards to performance. There was like health and wellness, longevity stuff, but it's relatively new, you know, the majority, the bulk of the studies being done. So I remember distinctly it was 2008, reading a study on the effects of loss of sleep and testosterone levels and then growth hormone levels. And then, you know, connecting that to performance and, you know, my performance on the field.

And we started to take sleep more seriously. Like, you know, I would at least think about that. Now, most college kids, like, yes, we went out. We had a good time. I didn't sleep the best. But I was very aware, like, if we had a big workout the next day, we weren't going to do any of that stuff. And we were pretty dialed in. And then after football started working with athletes on the performance side and then transitioned into, you know, I started working at Equinox and got on the corporate side and stuff.

And I got to spend a lot of time with Dr. Jennifer Martin, who was at UCLA, and really opened my eyes to the psychology of sleep. And then also just the impactfulness across all buckets of life. And shortly after I started, you know, focusing more and more on sleep because I was so intrigued and learning. and taking courses and all the stuff and eventually started speaking on it. And when I really like, you know, dug my heels in and really tried to learn everything I could was when I would hear the responses from people about the impacts on their life. I mean, like, if you want to change someone's life, whatever they're trying to do and you can optimize their sleep, one, it's going to make them, it's almost going to like

grease the skids as far as achieving any goals. And two, like, they're just going to feel so much better. So it was so fulfilling to help people out in a way that wasn't often thought about back then. People didn't really start taking sleep seriously as they'd say until five years ago. And so I was pretty early on. Like I would go, I would do like corporate presentations at companies in New York and they'd be like, how long do you need like 10 minutes? And I was like, no, it's like 45 minutes to an hour. And they're like, you can talk about sleep for 45 minutes.

And it was still like such a, you know, out of box kind of. thought process. And so it's been cool as see just the evolution of society and how people are taking it seriously. You can tell people we're respecting sleep a lot more now because it used to be viewed as a distraction. You'd hear people say, I'll sleep when I'm dead. And work is more important than sleep. And I mean, I'll be honest, in the last decade plus, a building of business and training for all these events and now being a father and a husband, I don't get nearly as much sleep as I want and need. Yeah.

And I'm aware of that. I know that if I would sleep more, I would feel better. Yeah. I'm trying to move things around on my schedule to allow for that, especially now that this marathon's over. But I think people are now respecting sleep much more than they used to. Yeah, I think they're starting to wrap their head around the idea that it's not about feeling tired. You know, it's not just being sleepy and being low energy.

it's really about like cognitive function and how efficient you can be in certain tasks and decision making and emotional intelligence like it's things that are subconscious right like the things that are really impacted by sleep are like things like your reaction time your ability to read people's faces even like your facial expressions and matching your emotion like that stuff you can't like out tough or you can't push through or you know try to act like it's not affecting you that's stuff that you have zero control over. And I think that like sleep is a tool in a way that's unlike any other where it's really just making you better and more efficient. And like you said, optimizing these different portions of your life. It's not about feeling tired and having energy. It's about literally

like becoming like the most streamlined efficient version of yourself. And I think that's how people have to look at it, not taking time away. But really, it's almost like making the time you're actually working and doing stuff, you know, twice as effective. So you don't need as much time because you're going to be in such a clear focus mindset and you're able to have perspective. And I think, you know, when you're under slept, like, many of the decisions you're making are actually going to cost things to need more time to be sorted out because it's not, it's not like you're not able to have the vision that you would when you're, when you're optimized. It's like, whenever I go into any of these big endurance preps, my hormones always take.

take a hit. Some of that's from just accumulation of training, being overtrained, trying to get leaner. So my diet changes. Yeah. You do blood work after every event. Yeah, I always get blood work done. But what happens in a prep is the amount of time that I'm training increases. And then I'm also trying to fit in my normal work schedule and family life. So where I typically pull from to make time for everything else is from my sleep. And I know that as a direct correlation to impacts on hormones. Yeah. What have you seen from both men and women, the impact on hormones, primarily in men, testosterone,

with poor quality or lack of sleep? Yeah, I mean, I mean, honestly, poor sleep, especially a big shift. Like, if you go from sleeping a normal amount or an optimal amount to a whole month of, like, especially if someone has a kid or something like that. And you go to sleeping like five hours a night. You know, within a month, you can see significant drops of testosterone. Like I've seen wild decreases. Like, you know, I've seen people have a third of the testosterone they did after like a one month span of sleeping pretty poor or pretty poorly.

And sometimes, you know, alcohol can be involved or whatever. But in general, you know, majority of your testosterone is produced during that first sleep cycle. And then also that first sleep cycle, like, is the biggest growth hormone spike of the entire day, right? So you're talking about like your two primary performance enhancing hormones that are dependent on that first sleep cycle to be produced. And a lot of times what happens is if you're not sleeping efficiently or you do something where you're missing out on that cycle, you just kind of miss out on that production, it seems. It seems like it's kind of like if you don't use it, you lose it mentality or type of situation. And so you almost miss out on that production. And then cumulatively, your body really can't make up for it.

But even one night of sleep is going to impact those things. It's just your body's able to recover if you get back on the routine. Right. It's pretty wild. And I think that that's, I think the mindset shift, like you were talking about scheduling, everyone talks, I think everyone buckets like sleep in the recovery category. But if you look at every study like I'm talking about or anybody's talking about, they're all what happens after a poor night's sleep, right?

which has nothing to do with the recovery. It's really more of like a prep. So I think of the night's sleep as the foundation for performance the next day. So how can you build the strongest foundation in that pyramid to perform at the highest level? And I think when people think about scheduling it, you have to start there and then work backwards, as opposed to like you're saying, or here's everything I have to do in the day. I need a couple more hours here or there. Let's cut into my sleep.

Because I promise whatever you're doing isn't going to be at the level that you want. wanted to be. Right. So I always talk about backwards planning. Yeah. So it's almost like before I apply backwards planning to any day project operation, I have to carve out, I can't give myself 24 hours. I have to carve out the hours of sleep first. Right. So say I want to sleep eight hours. That thing gives me 16 hours to backwards plan the remainder of my day. But I'm pre-carving out. I'm pre-carving out. those sleep hours because they are the priority to build the foundation for everything else. Yeah, and I think that really the difference, I think everybody has probably known that for 10 years, but no one's had the buy-in to truly believe that sleep's going to have that big of impact.

It's more about the belief at your core. And I don't think a lot of people are still there. Like, I don't think people truly believe that they'll get more done and be as efficient if they focus on sleep. I still think when push comes to shove and there's a meeting or a task, they're probably going to cover it out of their sleep. But I think the more and more data, we're starting to see people realizing, like, this is no joke and it needs to be a priority for a million different reasons. And once you kind of experience that, I think there's no going back. I've gotten to a place where it takes a lot for me to schedule a red eye or a flight that's really going to mess at my sleep and my wife gets mad at me sometimes because I'm kind of particular

about it, but, you know, I just, I also like we were saying, like, I'm, you know, I just love feeling really good. Like, when you feel great, like, life can throw a lot of things at you, and it just kind of brush it off. But, like, when you're not feeling good, you know, things just seem amplified. Issues seem harder, arguments get more intense, problems seem bigger than they are. So I'm kind of obsessed with just constantly feeling good. And, you know, I've made that shift and it's become such a priority that I don't think I could go back because I've realized that it's added such a value in my life. And I feel like, especially from a mental health perspective, you know, like people don't realize almost every clinical psychiatric

disorder has a sleep issue as a symptom. So when it comes to just, you know, being stable in your mood and your day to day and, you know, becoming, being the best like father or friend or, you know, teammate, like you're almost doing a disservice by not committing that because you're not going to be the same person or you're not going to be the person that you want to be if you're chronically underslept. So it's not selfish. It's actually selfless. 100%. I, I have, I literally have this argument with people. It's like, I do think sleep is the, sleep is the most selfless thing you can do. If you can look at it through the lens of, I'm going to pour myself into other people. I'm going to pour myself into my relationship, my marriage, fatherhood, my teammates. And if that's what you're

truly doing, then sleep is the most selfless thing you can do because you are going to be the best version of yourself. And if you're not sleeping well, you're committing to being like 75% of a father, of a teammate, all these different things. So if you're doing the right things and you care about people, I think sleep is the most selfless thing you can do. I'd love to talk about how to optimize sleep and kind of put them into two categories. The category one is something that everyone can do without buying something, you know, like routine, turning the temperature down in your house, stuff like that. And then the second category being like something you can add on top of, like the mouth tape and mask. So could you kind of share some tips for

people of category one, you can do this right now. Yeah. Category two, icy on the cake. Yeah, so I think like the three lowest hanging fruit, like the three easiest things to do that people might not do is, one, create a continuum from the evening to your bedroom, meaning from a psychological perspective and a lighting perspective, you know, transitioning your lighting and your screen usage just like the sun would. and gradually tapering off the night. A lot of people have screens and loud noises and they're watching TV and all the lights are on in their place. And then all of a sudden they had this like, boom, go in my bedroom and expect to fall asleep right away.

So that's a really easy thing to do. And I think psychologically it has a really big impact. The other thing is like, you know, a ton of people are using melatonin nowadays. And melatonin is triggered. The production is triggered by darkness. So like, no wonder people are using it so often because usually, They're in front of bright lights, you know, all the way up until the time they actually go to bed. So that's easy.

I think temperature is really easy. You know, having a cool, dark room is pretty straightforward and easy. And temperature regulation plays a massive impact on getting into deep sleep cycles. So that's an easy change, you know, just put the thermostat down, open a window, whatever it may be. But people don't often think about that. And I think one of the things that's most impactful that people really rarely think, about is front-loading hydration. You know, even people with people that have a hard time sleeping, a lot of times they wake up in the middle of night and they can't stop thinking about

something or they're stressing out about something. And that's something to address. But, you know, I like to think about it as like playing the odds, you know. So when you wake up in the middle of the night, there's a chance like you could get attached to a thought or start worrying about something in your life. And you want to give your brain the least amount of opportunities to do that, right? Because every time you wake up, there's a chance. that that could happen or you might not be able to fall asleep. There's a chance you might stub your toe onto the way of the toilet and not be able fall back to sleep for that.

You know what I mean? So you want to minimize those chances. And hydration is usually something people don't really think about, but they'll have a ton of fluid intake up until they go to bed and probably have to get up three, four, five times throughout the night. And that could be one or two times. So we would recommend front-loading the hydration the first 12 hours of the day and then tapering it off as the night goes on.

And then the other thing is not drinking more than that. like two or three ounces at a time in the evening. Because if you drink more than like five ounces, it'll trigger you to urinate more often and you'll have to get up more often to go to the bathroom middle of the night. So people, you know, I'll talk to people all the time. They get up five times in the middle of night

to go pee because they want to be hydrated and they'll crush 24 ounces of water right before they go to bed when that's probably the worst thing you can be doing. Yeah, I wake up once in the middle of night every night to get the bathroom. That's great. That's pretty normal. Just one time.

And then, but then when I wake up when my alarm clock goes off, it's like, I got to go. Yeah. Yeah. So I do a pretty good job with hydration. We have, right now we have the sleep eight pad over our mattress that allows it to bring our bed temperature down. Before that, we had the chili sleep pad. Yep. That's been game changing for me because I used to always wake up in the middle of night at the morning, dripping and sweat.

hot, yeah. The mattress would be soaked. So, adding that, like, I think it's a great investment. Definitely. Some way bringing the temperature your bed down and the room.

I mean, for me, our room's like a wind tunnel at night. We have, like, two fans. We got our chilly sleep pad going on. Humidifier. Does Steph have the same temperature,

request as you, or do you guys have different? Hers is a little warmer. Yeah, that tends to be the case. There's a little warmer than mine. Got to sleep a little cooler, it seems. like. I would even prefer like I like sleeping in a sweatshirt and drop in the temperature even more.

I like that too. That's super comfortable for me. Yeah. I haven't used some of those, the chillers. I don't have my, I use, I have a bright balance bed. It's like a AI. It can put like vibrations through the bed and like match like meditations and sounds is pretty cool. But yeah, we have the room freezing usually. And that's a battle. But I'm probably going to try one out because because it's getting to the point where KD wants a warmer. So trying to figure out like a, you know, compromise there. It's game changing. Yeah.

Game changing. What about routine? Like how important is routine in trying to, like, say you can't get eight hours a night or nine hours a night or whatever. Is maintaining a routine still equally as important? Yeah, I mean, I should have went back. and far outweighing anything I said previously. Staying within 30 minutes of your wake-up time and bedtime is the most impactful thing

you can do for your sleep. I mean, it's hands down. Like the more and more that comes out, like I don't think we realize yet how important that is and how much of an impact it has when you deviate outside of that 30-minute mark. Woop is doing a lot of cool stuff with that right now. But basically like outside the 30-minute mark, every five minutes, you can predict. predictably, um,

predictably estimate someone's impact, the impact that the lack of sleep has on their HRV, resting heart, like all these like performance biometrics. So like, again, it's not just about being able to fall asleep and wake up and not feeling tired. Like your body is under physiological stress

when you're deviating out of your normal circadian rhythm. I think a lot of people mess that up, you know, on the weekends, like you stay up a little later. And it's hard because there's a balance. Like you have to be a normal human being. But a lot of people just,

you know give themselves social jet lag on the weekend by staying out super late and then sleeping in and then it takes them you know monday tuesday sometimes wednesday to recover from that shift in circadian rhythm it probably has nothing to do with like drinking or staying out and everything to do with their sleep and they don't really understand why that's happening i always feel extra tired on sundays saturday nights are the nights when i sleep in the longest i get i get the most sleep right so am i feeling this this fatigue this jet lagged feeling because of the extra sleep and being out of my routine. It's more about the inconsistency in your bedtime and wake time.

Interesting. I'm guessing Saturday night that's probably like when you're going out date night or like maybe you're having a drink or maybe you're staying up a couple hours later. Yeah. It's more from that shift in time than like the amount of sleep. Like I would venture to say if you went to bed at the same time and then slept in past the normal wake time, you probably feel fine. It's just you probably just shifted over and then,

that's impacted. And then the hard part is if that next night is impacted because you slept in later, now you're talking about like a cascading effect where that's how it starts to affect multiple days. Right. And it kind of linger. Yeah, right now I'm feeling the effects of being in Sacramento, California this past weekend. One, my whole sleep schedule is messed up because west to east is the worst. Oh my gosh, dude. Brutal. I'm waking up at like 3.30 a.m. every day right now. because we're two hours ahead. How long were you out there? Two nights.

Oh, you're just to correct. Yeah. And we got out there, the morning of the race, I had to be up at three because we had to get shuttled out to the starting line, went and ran a marathon when we traveled all day. So we didn't get back into Nashville until 10.30 p.m. at night, didn't get to sleep until 12. Brutal. That night. I can't fall.

Also, when I land, I can't fall asleep. I had a horrible. Horrible night of sleep. That happened to me. I got stranded in Charlotte, and I got stranded, and I slept so bad. I got home at, like, one in the morning. Yeah, so I'm feeling that. And then as soon as we got back, Charlie was sick.

So I was sleeping on the floor in her bedroom. Because she didn't want to sleep in her crib. She wanted to sleep on the floor. So I slept, like, no, a few hours that night. So all those things are compounding. and I'm feeling it so much this week. And I keep asking myself, why am I so tired this week? Yeah. Why am I so fatigued?

No, you're navvies. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's no overcoming that. Like, that's a thing. There's certain things you can do to, like, hack other things, you know, nutrition issues or, you know, workout stuff. But, like, there's no way to hack being underslept. It is what it is. And the best thing you can actually do, like, if you have a night where you sleep horrible, really the best thing you can do is nothing. Just power through it. And, and it's, and get back on your regular rhythm because a lot of people will overconsume caffeine or they'll take a nap and they're not used to taking naps and then they can't fall asleep that night and then you're talking about multiple day impacts where if you just power through kind of bite

the bullet and you know get through that day you'll probably fall right back into your normal rhythm and it'll be a one day thing where most people you know probably cause a two or day two or three day issue because they try to throw these little tools at it and it ends up being a long-term negative. So that's a category one. Those are things that people can start doing right now, which is pretty easy for most people to implement. Obviously, there's things that happen in life.

Kids get sick, get back late from a flight, marathon, project you're working on that you have to knock out. It keeps up until 2 a.m. Things happen. You can get thrown off course, but if you can maintain that routine in those foundational pieces of sleep, it's going to make a massive. of impact. Definitely. What can you layer on top of that, which I'm sure talking about mouth tape, which is so interesting. Yeah. I'd love to talk about mouth tape actually because they probably

blow most people's minds away. Yeah. Like what are these things we can layer on top? I mean, there's a lot of stuff. You know, there are a ton of things you can do. And some of it is different for every person, you know, everywhere from white noise to obviously like the mouth tape, sleep masks, you know, blackout curtains, blue light blocking glasses. Like, there's a ton of stuff out there. Are you a white noise person? I'm not. White noise is interesting.

You know, white noise is one of the things where, like, if you have nothing and you sleep fine and there's not any noise, if you add it, it's not going to make your sleep better. But if there's noises and stuff that would distribute you throughout the night, it can be useful to drown those out. So for athletes sometimes we'll recommend getting a machine because on the road, sometimes, you know, hotels, you might be next to the elevator. You know, it's loud. People are opening doors, whatever I meet.

You don't know the situation. It can be useful to drown that stuff out. But you have to get used to it first. So that can be a good tool for an athlete specifically, especially when your livelihood is dependent on your performance. Like that's when you almost got to take in every measure. I'm not a white noise person. Never was.

I can sleep fine with it. But Steph is. Steph needs white noise. So if we're traveling and she forgets her white noise machine, and she'll download an app and use something there. But I can sleep in complete silence. I can sleep through things.

I'm sure being in the military helped me with that. Definitely. But Steph is someone who needs white noise. Well, I mean, she probably realizes a ton on the road. Like, if you're on the road, is she like very particular about that?

Extremely. So, like, the first night you're in a new environment, you know, from an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense. Like, you're on high alert. And so the first night you're in any hotel room or a new environment, your brain is almost twice as sensitive to sound as normal.

So that's when it's super important. And we also have athletes travel with earplugs for that reason. So taking care of sound and making sure, like, if that's your routine, you have that, that first night of travel is by far the most impacted by, you know, different noises in the room. That's how she is. Yeah. And then you kind of settle in once you get used to it. It makes sense, you know, like as we're evolving, you know, you're somewhere new.

You don't know the environment. It makes sense that we were like on high alert. and then you kind of ease in. Right. Other than that, other than white noise, what's number two go-to for some of these athletes you work with? I mean, I think the sleep mask is one of the most underrated tools out there because it's a cheap, effective way to bring consistency

and make light a controlled variable that's often not able to be controlled, right? Like, it's not very expensive. And anywhere you go, you can create the same environment from a light, perspective. And the other thing it does, especially in this day and age, is it's a psychological trigger to committing to going to sleep. Right. So a lot of people are on their phones or watching TV. They never have a point where like your brain is triggered to be like, okay, I'm going to shut down. It is time to rest. I'm going to bed. And so for college athletes, especially, like not be able to be on Snapchat and just be on their phone until they pass out, like having that moment,

they fall asleep so much faster and they create a routine. They don't realize literally like, not be able to see is the reason it's creating the routine, but it creates this awesome routine and their consistency and how fast they fall asleep gets much, much better. So I think sleep mask is an awesome tool that's often overlooked. I've tried the sleep mask a few times. You got to get used to it. Yeah, definitely to get used to it. I can definitely tell, like you said, when I'm in bed and I put the sleep mask on, it is a mental cue for me. It's time to go to sleep. Yeah. So I no longer can reach over and grab my phone and check for a last minute email. Right. It's on. But I would wake up a mill and night. It's all over the place. It's off. Yeah. The first couple nights I used the mouth

tape, too, I woke up in the middle of night and I ripped it off. Not even knowing it. I think I just woke up. Yeah. I was like, what's on my mouth. Yeah. Took it off. Now I don't, I don't rip it off anymore. Yeah. But that took me some time to get used to. Yeah, weirdly, the masks seem to take people a little longer to get used to than the mouth tape. But I mean, the mouth tape was truly life-changing for me. So like my personal experience with it, I, you know, I've read a ton of stuff. And obviously we know nasal breathing. It's extremely powerful and evolution of tape of your mouth and just ensuring that's happening. But so I started doing it, just trying it out.

First night I did it, Katie was like traveling and came home late. And she like got in the room and I had my mouth tape and she was like, what is happening? Probably thought you were like being held hostage. Yeah. No, for real. Yeah. And she was like three years ago. So it wasn't like a well-known thing.

She had no idea. So if that freaked around. What do you do when I leave the house? Yeah, she was like, is there someone in the closet? Like, what was it going on here? But so I started feeling like way better. I wake up, like I was more refreshed. I didn't wake up as often.

I just felt like, you know, like you have an awesome night's sleep, like deep sleep. You feel like you're just coming out of a coma kind of when you wake up. Yeah. That's how it felt like every night. Fast forward, like, you know, there wasn't a lot of great options for mouth tape and I'm speaking and I'm recommending it. But, you know, there's no brand that I feel really. comfortable recommending. So we start dream recovery. And

I'm like, let's actually figure out like from a from a physiological perspective what's going on. So I did two clinical sleep studies. I did one without the mouth tape, one with the mouth tape. Without the mouth tape, I stopped breathing 86 times throughout the night. I was diagnosed with moderate sleep apnea.

They would have recommended me to be on a CPAP like the whole deal. And then I did it with the mouth tape and I had eight disturbances the entire night, like less than average, you know, REM sleep was up like 50%, deep sleep, slow wave sleep was up like 50%, like everything fell in the place. So it's no wonder I felt so much better. But the thing is, is like, I thought I slept well before. You know, I never had a problem sleeping. I thought I felt good. I thought I was getting like deep rest and it was just like you don't really know what you

don't know. Like you've only slept as yourself your whole life. So you really don't have the perspective of change. So that's like one of the rare times with sleep. Like you have this drastic change and you're able to feel the difference. So it kind of makes sense why it was so impactful for me. But there's a lot of people out there. Like I was breathing through my mouth. Now I'm so aware of it that like if I don't use it, like I have a dry mouth when I wake up and I realize that's happening. But I had no idea. And same with Katie. So we're quite the pair at night. You know, eye masks, mouth tape. We look like crazy people. Yeah. The first time I ever tried it after you gave it to me, I put the mouth tape on and the eye mask. And Steph loves talking before we go to bed.

And I was just laying there. I could hear her talking to me, but I couldn't respond. So I just put in my hand, like, stop. I was like, and I pointed. I mask, tape, I can't, I can't see your talk. Yeah. Unbelievable, you know, anger management tool if there's an argument. Yeah.

It stops it instantaneously. I think it's definitely, for me at least, it was intimidating to overcome it first because I had this fear that it was going to be like a ductation. and I was going to take it off my lips in the morning and it was going to rip my skin off with it. But it's like a KT tape. Yeah, it's similar. So it's similar like pliability. It's made out of like bamboo silk.

And then the adhesive is, you know, meant to be on your skin that long. Like that's the biggest thing with a lot of these companies. They banned all mouth tape from Amazon because people were like breaking out because there's all these sketchy, you know, materials being used. So it's like medical grade adhesive that we ship from the U.S. And yeah, it's like a good combination. Obviously, it's really secure, but, you know, you can take it off. It's not like going to rip your skin off. And we're actually working on a really small vertical tape because a lot of people are nervous about it.

You know, it is a weird thing. And to completely shut your mouth up, sometimes people have anxiety and, like, they're scared to try it. So we're coming out with like a smaller version that just subtly secures your mouth shut. And that's also great for people who maybe aren't sure, like, if they're breathing out of their mouth or their nose and you'll be able to tell pretty quickly if that thing holds like you're probably in a pretty good spot what is the benefit of breathing out of your nose as opposed to your mouth it's wild you know we're learning more and more but you know you're you're just one you know it's a direct link to your nervous system you know so to to really get yourself in a place where

your body's relaxing and you're calm and you're able to be restful you almost have to be breathing out of your nose. If you're breathing out of your mouth, it's going to ramp your nervous system up. And, you know, our mouth is meant to be used for breathing when we need massive amounts of volume of air, right? Like when we're sprinting or running, whatever it may be. But our nose is more efficient, right? So with a lesser volume, we can take in more oxygen through our nose, right? It just relaxes your body in a whole other way, just because the efficiency, it moistens the air. and it really allows you to fully like from a physiological perspective be at rest like it's again it's about limiting those stressors and breathing out of your mouth is just another stressor your

body has to deal with correct me if I'm wrong but there's the parasympathetic yeah and sympathetic yeah nervous system yep and is it parasympathetic that is rest and digest yeah which is weird because you think sympathetic sounds more like restful right but yeah And I think is, and sympathetic is like the active state, correct? Yes, yes. And when you're breathing through your nose, that activates the parasympathetic. Correct. And that's kind of why, you know, there's a lot of reasons.

I mean, it's weird to talk about, but erectile dysfunction has like skyrocketed. And that's because like in order to have that happen, you have to be in a parasympathetic state. Like you have to be calm. And then at the end, it's the opposite to sympathetic state. you're hyper aroused and, you know, your nervous system's fired up. So like just, just as a culture, you know, we're so stressed and constantly in this, you know, the elevated state of our nervous system that a lot of things like sleep and, you know, sex and things like that have taken the hit and people don't even realize it. And it kind of like stems across a lot of these different areas

of our biology. Are people now having sex with mouth tape on? I think they've been doing that, but I think that's a whole different area. I don't know if that's, I don't know if they're into quite the same thing. I don't think they're into health and performance. Different kind of performance, maybe. That's like true, like true bondage. Yeah, that's, I don't know what you're into,

but, you know, I can get you some more tape if you need it. The tape's been game-changing, man, for, for sleep because I naturally do breathe through my mouth. I'd love to see a study on you. I'd be so curious. We should do one at-home one because it could be similar to me. you know and men seem to have higher rates of sleep apnea especially with the size of their neck or if they're overweight a lot of different issues but yeah it if you feel if it's if you feel that much better i bet you had something going on yeah with dream recovery are you guys not able to sell on amazon no man it's wild but actually you know it's actually been the best thing to happen because um i think it's made people realize how important the quality of of the uh you know the materials are And also, like, people have to seek it out.

So I think some of the, some of those companies that were using all the sketchy stuff, they would just, you know, they're such a cheap product. They could just throw everything right back into the Amazon marketing. So I think it allowed us to actually, like, gain a platform because people had to actually go look for it and learn about it as opposed to just like go after like the cheapest ones on there. Have you been doing a lot of trial? Because it reminds me of a product that if you can get it in people's hands, they try it, they become a believer. It's hard. Yeah, yeah, we definitely love to give it to people and have people try it out. The hard thing, though, it is, like you said, it's intimidating. It is intimidating. So, one, it's intimidating. It's a little scary. It's not something people are, like, stoked to try. And two, it's, I don't know. I mean, that's the biggest thing. It's like, yeah, we love people to try it. Well, the second thing is, like, people have to, like, really see it through. You know, you have to give it a few, probably. a week before you feel. I mean, I feel a difference right away. And actually, a lot of people, you know, they feel good pretty quickly. But if you're already a little nervous about it,

like it's going to take a while for you to adapt. So those are probably our two, you know, things we have to overcome. But it's like I said, like, I woke up with this first couple nights and I woke up like, what's in my mouth? I just took it off. Yeah. But I just, I just naturally stopped doing that. Yeah, I'll still do that maybe a couple times a month where I wake up and I'm like, wait, what happened? And then it's like stuck to my back or something like that. Right. Yeah, it's, uh, it's definitely weird. Like people, we get messages all the time, you know, because people are so nervous about it. But I always recommend like, okay, put the tape on, go for a walk or even just sit and watch TV and just, you know, basically

prove to yourself, you're going to be okay because you're totally fine breathing out of your nose. And a lot of people have issues with congestion. And a lot of times actually breathing out of your mouth chronically makes the congestion worse because your brain's interpreting that is like having you know CO2 levels that are requiring you to breathe through your mouth and it causes more congestion and so oftentimes people who actually have congestion that's why they're nervous to use it once they teach themselves how to breathe through their nose it alleviates the congestion it's like the other night I was stuffed up and congested you told me to use a mouth tape and it's not fun did it clear it up uh I mean I felt better but like I thought that I wouldn't be able to

to even fall asleep, but I was able to fall asleep still and keep breathing through my nose. Yeah. But it was that I was trying to balance breathing through my mouth and nose when I was sick that was making it more difficult. Definitely. Yeah, it's counterintuitive, but it definitely works. I used to wake up congested quite a bit and didn't realize why. Yeah.

But we are developing some nasal strips, which will also help with that. I can't wait to try that. I'm super excited about it. Man, when I put them on like night and day difference, It's crazy how good it feels. I'm excited from the performance perspective. I mean, there hasn't been that much research on stuff like that. So I want to do some clinical stuff.

I mean, if you're able to increase that volume, like by a fair share, it has to have a huge impact on performance and endurance. Like I was telling you, I've never worn a nose strip before. And my left nostrils always, I can't get a full breath in my left nostril. I always can in my right nostril. and I was at the starting line of the marathon this past weekend at CIM, and Eric Floberg was there, and he was putting on a nose strip, nasal strip, and he was like, dude, you got to try this, put it on.

So I put it on, and it was just like lifted my nostrils up a little bit. Instantly, I could smell things. I could pick up on every scent. I could smell people's colognes and deodorants and foods and flowers. Like, no bullshit. I could smell every scent. everything. That's a lot.

And I could take this massive deep breath. Now, I ended up taking it off before the marathon started. You probably went to 20. I know. I should have kept it on. I was nervous of trying something new. So even, you know, when we launched this marathon video January 1st, like me at the starting line, you'll see I have this nasal strip on.

But then when I go out, it's not on anymore. It's because I ripped it off. Yeah. Because I was just afraid, like, you know, you get so superstitious about. I wouldn't now try to either. Competitions. I'm not trying to do. Well, some of the sleep stuff, sometimes athletes will be like,

oh, I have a huge meet this weekend. Like, what should I do, you know, to really make sure I sleep well? I'm like, well, nothing. Now, like, it needs to be part of your routine. You can't just, like, throw these different tools in there and expect it to work the first night. They only work if it's part of your consistent routine. And you have to get used to things.

So in competition, it's like, yeah, don't change things. Don't try things out during the competition. It's the worst thing you can do. How do you incorporate the sauna around your sleep? Because traditionally when I use my sauna, we both have the Sisu. Yeah, love it. Pete's like the best guy ever. Yeah, love Pete.

Love Cisoo. There's some great songs out there, but I just love Cisoo because Pete's such a good guy. Like, you know they're going to do the right things and they treat people well. And I think that's like so important. You can just tell. You also want to see good people win. For sure.

They're crushing too. So I'm super happy for him. So I use my Sisu sauna. Typically the end of the night after we put Charlie down 30 minutes to an hour before going to sleep.

Oh, I thought you were going to say you staying 30 minutes to an hour. I was like, dang. No, no, no. I'm doing like 20 minutes right now. 200 degrees. And then you gave me those essential oils. I've been

I've been filling the pot with essential oils. Now I'll dump that on the rocks. That's game-changing. So good. Dude, I'll dump, like, I'll just keep dumping water on those rocks. Yeah. And my sweat just pours out of my body. Oh, that'll elevate the temperature real quick.

Well, not the temperature, but humidity. Instantly. Yeah, so my night routine, I've kind of changed it up. I used to, like, go in there and, like, go until I couldn't do it anymore. But I found that, I think there's a, there's like a point of, of diminishing returns with the temperature where I've done it where I think if you go too hot and you push it too hard that it's a stress for your body and it can actually like prolong how long it takes you to fall asleep. So I think there's like a middle ground. So I've been going a little lower

temperature. I'll do two rounds usually lower temperature. So like maybe 185 but try to go a little longer like 25 minutes and that seems to work really well. If I can I'll do two rounds. I'll do 25 and I'll just dip in the cold or maybe like 30 seconds and then I'll do another cycle and then dip in the cold again but not in the cold too long where it like you know spikes my dopamine and all that stuff and then I've been using lavender essential oils for the last cycle so it's like a calming I'll have to try that yeah I got a bunch like I give you some so do you do you do another round of cycles earlier in the day I try to do cold plunge first thing in the morning by itself which is brutal sometimes,

but I feel awesome afterwards. It really, like, primes me for my day. It depends. If I'm going to do, like, run or something early in the morning, I usually don't do it before that. I'll do it after sometimes if it's a longer run or whatever may be, just because it feels good when I'm super hot. But if I'm going to do my cardio a little later,

I'll do cold plunge first thing. And then honestly, you know, I invite people over all the time to do, like, contrast stuff. So I kind of save that for, like, the social setting because it seems to be happening quite often. And I think that's just like a fun experience, you know. So I don't really use that as like a, I think that like just from a recovery or like optimization perspective, I think sauna in cold is actually better separated.

So that's what I do if I'm by myself. Okay. You see you'll do like cold in the morning. Hot at night. Hot at night. Yeah. Yeah. And I just do enough cold to like make me not like burning up when I, when I get in the bedroom.

Yeah. I actually love the hot tub for right before bed too because water transfers energy so well. I almost feel exhausted when I get out of the hot tub. So that's been a nice tool, especially when it's cold outside. It's super relaxing too. Like psychological side, I really enjoy it. So mix it up. Yeah, our cold plunge gets delivered at the end of this month.

We got the renew one. Those are sick. Super excited for that to get dropped off. And I honestly want to use the cold plunge and the sauna the same way you use it for like social settings. It's awesome. People come over, you do it for you around, you have conversations, make a fire or something. And it's crazy because, like, you know, it mimics a lot of the neuromodulator responses of alcohol. And it's a healthy, fun way to, like, be more social.

Like, it does make you want to be more social and create relationships and produce all the same chemicals that attract alcohol to people. And you feel great the next day. It's like the best of both worlds. So that's kind of how I use it, honestly. And sometimes, you know, I'll consciously do that where like we could either go grab some drinks on a Friday night or let's get a group of people together and go sauna. And maybe some people do have a couple of drinks after, whatever. But I think I just feel so much better when I make little changes like that. And I have the other thing is you have such great conversations in the song.

I mean, the first time you came over, I feel like we would have never had that depth of conversation if we weren't stuck in this sauna with no phones, like nothing else going on. First time we met too. Yeah, and it just forces you to, like, get to know somebody really fast. So I feel like in Nashville, I feel like 80% of my friends here I've met in the sauna the first time I met him. Well, I mean, it's this small, like six foot by a five foot box. Yeah. That's 200 plus degrees. You're both pretty much naked.

Yeah. You get to know people real quick. Yeah. You're both naked. You have veins flying out of your arms, you know? And like, the first time I came over, I was like, oh, this dude is getting after it. Yeah. It's a good shame.

Yeah. Honestly, like the Sisu Sana has been one of my favorite additions to our house and just like my recovery and optimization protocol. I think like sonnas are obviously a luxury. They're very expensive. It's a huge investment. But like if you could get anything, it's hard to argue against the sauna because if you use it as a tool from like a social setting too, like you can get so much value out of that. And also you create this friend group that. is doing the right things usually. They're into the same things. Like they're, they're healthy,

but also trying to have a good time. Like, man, I would not trade my sauna for anything. Yeah. I mean, I think back to when I was in high school or college, yeah, working out at Gold's Gym, there was a sauna there all the time. You'd hop in the sauna for like five or ten minutes before workout. With your clothes on. With your clothes on. And I always thought the sauna was just something to relax you and feel better, prime you for a workout. And, you know, you feel good leaving a sauna. Yeah. But with all the research, it's actually out there about the use of sauna for dementia and preventing cognitive decline.

Yeah. It's extensive. It's wild. So it's one of those things that, yes, you feel good in the moment. You can use it for a social activator. But if you do it frequently and on a consistent basis, it can save your life years to come, at least save your mind. at least save your mind. Yeah, which is the most important thing.

I mean, that's one of my biggest fears. I mean, I think everybody's been touched by, you know, Alzheimer's or dementia. It's horrible to witness. And I think that anything you can, well, the cool thing is with that is we're finding out more and more. A lot of those are environmental factors. And there's a lot of things you can do prevent those diseases. But yeah, the sauna research is wild.

Even from a mental health perspective, they've done, they've done studies where they expose people to heat one time and it reduces depression like symptoms for up to six weeks. in double-blind placebo studies, meaning like both groups thought they had heat exposure. Dang. One wasn't hot enough to raise their core temperature, and one was. And so it was like one of the best studies you could do,

and people report like a reduction in depression like symptoms, which is wild, you know. And like a lot of people, like, you know, it seems like it makes your endorphin receptors more sensitive. So some of those like positive emotions you're feeling, it just amplifies those positive emotions. For an extended time, it's not like just while you're in there.

Like it seems to linger and, you know, be something that stays with you, which is, this is awesome. You think about like interventions, like holistic interventions for mental health stuff. I mean, that's one of the best places to start. I mean, sleep in that, like, that's a pretty powerful duo. Yeah, I remember when I did the, I used to contrast stuff back in Texas. I'd go between the cold plunge and the sauna. But if I did it, it was usually at night.

and I go to bed shortly after. But when I visited you and we did it that day, I think it was probably like 1 p.m., 2 p.m., something like that. And we did two rounds hot and cold. I left your house feeling I had four shots of espresso. You were fired up. I had so much energy that I went and bought a cold punch right after. I remember, you were like, man, I forgot what this was like.

I had so much energy for the rest of the day that I didn't need my second. a dose of caffeine, I was good to power through. Yeah. It is so powerful for the body. It is in the mind. I think that's the thing is like, I think like cold and hot. Like we always knew like, oh, I feel pretty good after like the sauna like when you were at gold's gym, but we never knew why we felt good. Like there was never good data on what the actual response was. And now we're starting to figure out like, oh, it's not like a psychological thing where we're just convincing yourself we feel good. Like this is doing pretty incredible stuff. And really all it is is like, everyone talks about adversity,

but it's pretty clear like all forms of adversity have a positive impact on us, whether it be psychological, heat, coal, like all these different things. Like it just builds resilience in whatever bucket you're going after.

Yeah. The last thing I want to say about the sauna is it actually mimics the effects on the body like a zone two cardiovascular workout. Yeah. Great for the heart where it elevates core body temperature. elevates your heart rate to a place where you're almost getting the effects of a low intensity

aerobic-based workout. And I know a lot of people will go for their runs or do their endurance workout for the day and it'll go straight into the sauna afterwards to extend the effects on the body of that slightly increased heart rate. Yeah. And there's a pretty good data on that for endurance runners and just like increase in aerobic output in red blood cell production by doing like right after you run or right after you do some type of cardiovascular exercise to jump in the sauna for 20 minutes. And heat acclamation. Definitely.

If you're doing a, like, say, a really big Ironman or marathon and it's in a climate or time of the year that's hotter temperatures, you're using the sauna leading up to that race or that event can allow your body to acclimate to heat more efficiently so that come race day, you're prepared to be adaptable to that. climate. Yeah, I think it's a great way because yeah, I think a lot of people, you know, a lot of people travel for stuff like that, so they might not be able to train in the same climate that they're going to compete in. And that's an awesome tool. And I also think that, you know, it does train your body how to cool itself down more efficiently. You know, when you first start doing sauna, it probably takes you, you'll notice if someone's new to the sauna, they won't start sweating

as quickly as someone that's acclimated to the heat because that's just how efficient your body is at cooling itself down. So the more I do it, the faster in fact, the faster I break. Like, you would call it like, did you break yet and start sweating? And that happens sooner and sooner. And I'll notice, like, if I'm in a group of like eight people, I'm sweating probably four times as much as people who don't do it very often because I'm much more acclimated to that heat. And I think that probably transitions over to like, even if you're not competing in heat,

but you're competing in a cooler temperature, I think people feel amazing because they're so efficient. Like, you know, your temperature is barely even a factor in a cooler climate because you're so efficient. You even sweat a little bit in that type of climate and you're golden. I think Katie experienced that in the New York City Marathon. Yeah. I noticed that actually when we moved from Austin to Nashville, so we had our Sisu Sana'ana in Austin, and then we didn't have it for a few weeks once we got to Nashville. So there was a few week gap where I wasn't using the sauna on a regular basis. And then we finally got it set up. Pete came down and helped us set up the new one.

I started using the sun again every night. And one, it took me longer to sweat. Two, I couldn't stay in as long as I used to. Yeah. So I was, I was breaking it like, like breaking mentally and physically like 12 minutes in where I usually usually do 20 minutes. I got to get out of here, right? I turn the heat down. Now when I'm, as I'm back on a schedule, 20 minutes for me is, is almost easy again at the same temperature.

Yeah. It definitely like you definitely get used to it. It's almost like running like you build yourself up and it's like you know what's a great like you want to talk about like testing yourself mentally is setting like goals in the sauna. Sometimes with friends like you know, I have to have a friend that's like pretty into it. But you know picking a temperature and be like, all right, let's do 25 minutes. And you know you're okay, but it's a suffocating feeling. It is suffocating. And then just breathing through your nose and calming yourself down like it's a great.

great, it's a great tactic to learn how to like regulate your nervous system because it's hard. Like, I don't know what it is, but that suffocating heat feeling is, is, it's one of the more helpless feelings out there. It's way different than anything else. So I'll do that every once in a while and people are into it. And it's tough. It's really hard to calm yourself down when you're super hot. Sometimes my heart would get to like 150, 155. It's pretty gnarly. I start rocking back and forth. Yeah. Like trying to call myself down. Or one of the things I'll do when I'm by myself is I'll set the temperature and then I won't look at my watch. I'll try to go 20 minutes and not looking at my watch and go as long as possible.

I'm like, all right, I think I'm close. Look down. It's like 12 minutes. Yeah, like nine minutes. Like, holy shit. No, dude, I feel like the time goes super slow when you do that. It's not easy to do by yourself. Say that for sure.

It's definitely easier with people. Yeah, you get a conversation going. You can kind of psych yourself out of it to a certain point. And then it just goes silent. Everybody's just quiet for a while. Yep. Well, Todd, I mean, I honestly, I appreciate it. That's great, man.

I've been loving all the content you put out about sleep optimization. Been loving the dream recovery products. Appreciate it. You influenced me to get back on the cold punch train. Order that, like I said, the day after we did those contrast. So I appreciate it, man. It's been great to get to know you. and the warm welcome into the city.

Me and Steph both really appreciate you guys. Oh, for sure, man. It's been awesome to get to know you guys. And, you know, Steph's a Spartan. So I knew you had to be a pretty cool guy since, you know, she went to Michigan State, obviously. Yeah. But no, it's been great, man.

And, you know, watching all your stuff and kind of dig it into more what you've been doing. It's really inspiring. It's cool to watch. It's making me get back on my run game a little bit. I'm going to join you one of these times. Definitely. Definitely. I mean, Shelby Park is the best.

It's beautiful. It's unbelievable. It's like you couldn't design it. a better running path. Yeah, Nashville, what I found is big running community, super accessible to get to a lot of different places. And like the cherry on top is the food scene is just so good. And wouldn't, I didn't expect that either. No. Dude, the food is like, I feel like there's so many restaurants and, and they're like very unique. You know, it's, it's all spectrums. Like, you wouldn't think, for example, like, we went to Noco, like, you wouldn't think, oh, there's an amazing Asian fusion

place in Nashville. You would never think it would be like, oh, it's probably good for Nashville. It's like, no, these would hold up anywhere. It's been incredible. I saw NoCode just received like some award recognition for, it was a nationwide recognition for one of the best restaurants of like 2023 or something like that. Yeah, I mean, I was, I was so impressed by it. The customer service and they just, they do it the right way. And it's, I don't know, you can just tell. You can feel it. Every time I go in there, it's the exact same experience. And they just were like want to please people. And it's, it's refreshing because I feel like a lot of places have lost that over the last,

you know, five years or so. And that's probably why I go there so often. Yeah. We'll be back. Definitely. That waggo beef, man, we could have done probably three times. I mean, I was like two weeks down for the marathons. I was like controlling myself now.

Dude. Brains are off. Oh, man. Let's go. All right. Let's go back. Don't get. All right.

We'll book it. Todd, appreciate you, man. Yeah. You see, man.