The Nick Bare Podcast - 047: Inside the Mind of the 450-Mile Backyard Ultra Record Holder Harvey Lewis

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

Today's episode is with Harvey Lewis, a high school teacher who set a world record at Big's Backyard Ultra this year, running 450 miles over five days. He shares his story of becoming an ultrarunner, his daily routine of running to work, his near-death experience, and his mindset when preparing for a race. Harvey gives us an inside look at his experience running the Barkley Marathons, one of the toughest ultramarathons in the world, which only 17 people have completed. Hearing about his dedication, perseverance, and passion for running inspires and engages runners and non-runners alike. Enjoy! Save 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio Follow for more:  IG: https://www.instagram.com/nickbarefitness/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@nickbarefitness Keep up with Harvey here: IG: https://www.instagram.com/harveylewisultrarunner/ Topics: 0:00 Intro 2:00 Welcome 6:56 Harvey’s marathon journey 12:17 Navigating hardship 17:13 Near death experience 21:58 The power of movement 28:01 Abundance mindset 33:09 Does accessibility limit experience? 44:29 Running to work everyday 54:16 Training for big runs 58:31 Barkley Marathons 1:17:33 Preparing for the Barkley Marathons  1:21:22 Last Man Standing races 1:29:30 70% mental 30% physical 1:32:01 Where your mind goes when it gets hard 1:45:37 The potential of backyard ultras 1:50:15 How people impact you for success

So I heard you say before that these races are 70% mental, 30% physical. Do you still believe that? Oh, yeah, without a doubt. Like, I mean, it originates in your mind. And, like, so much of it is, like, regaining the confidence and, like, the mental aspect. Because just as your physical body can atrophy, like, your mind can also atrophy. You have to construct your mind to be able to. do these things as much as your body. There's a million reasons you could come up with where

you could say, okay, I'm done. You can always find a reason to quit, and you have to find your why of why you won't do that. I'm not going to ever quit a race. If I have to be the last person, I'll be the last person. I would rather finish last in a race than to quit the race because I'm not going to be in the top three or the top 10 or whatever that might be. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank you for tuning in and supporting the brand. Now, I have spent the last decade plus of my life building bare performance nutrition, and we create effective supplements that you can trust to support your wellness, endurance, and performance goals. We offer high-quality, great-tasting weight protein powders,

effective pre-workouts, superfoods, sleep support, electrolytes, and much more. So if you want to support the content that we produce and the message that I am sure, sharing through my content and on this podcast, I would greatly appreciate it if you went to BPNSups.com and you can use code Nick Bear 10 to save 10% off your next order. So thank you guys. I appreciate you. And let's dive into the show. Today on the podcast, we have Harvey Lewis, 27-year veteran of ultra running.

recently set the backyard world record of 450 miles. Ohio school teacher has been run commuting to and from work for the last 10 and half years and currently training for the Barclay Marathons. Harvey, what's going on? Thanks so much. It's so cool to be down here and start of our vacation, actually, from teaching. So it's a great way to kick off the winter holiday. Oh, beautiful. How long is the winter vacation?

We have about two weeks over the Christmas break. Yeah. So in Nashville, it's just a city. I don't get down. I get down here maybe every year or two. And it's just, it's a fun environment. I mean, it's only a four-hour drive from Cincinnati, but it feels like a different world. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. I mean, I'm from Pennsylvania. Yeah. And Pennsylvania being close to Ohio, very similar feels. Nashville has a completely different feel-vive environment compared to the north. Yeah, it does. And today, I mean, we went out for a morning run and my buddy Greg, who's the local, Greg Armstrong. And it was great to see, like, there's a lot of people out and about. And it's a little warmer in Cincinnati, even, believe it or not, even though we're not,

that far apart. It's actually a big running community. It seems like it. And I was surprised by that coming from Austin because Austin has a great running community as well. It does, yeah. And getting here, there's run clubs everywhere and there's people running every single morning.

I loved it. Yeah. Which has been great to see. Yeah, I love that. Well, I want to kick off. I want to congratulate you and acknowledge the big win at Big's backyard. You've got to be absolutely psyched about four and a half days

of running 450 miles and setting the bar pretty high for everyone, including yourself. Thanks. It was definitely something that I just is, I'm just so, like, static about it. But to throw it back to you, congratulations for your marathon. Thank you. I think that's just a really remarkable. And like, for me, my personal best in the marathon is like 245-58 and like I can't always have this mindset that it's always possible to improve and better yourself. So I'm like, I may have to ask you a few questions today about like what what do you think brought you to that? So it's really neat to see that you got under the 240 mark. I appreciate that. Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah, when I when I finished the race,

because I was shooting for sub 245 originally. And when I finished the race and we created a video out of it, we haven't released it yet, but the guys are editing the project right now. And Ian came over to me, he had a camera in my face. And all I could say over and over again was, I'm just so proud of that one.

I'm just so proud of that one. You know what, when you put in all this work and you execute and you're like, yes, like, we did it. That's amazing. It's such a good feeling. How many months did you really concentrate? Like, where did you get that vision or goal?

And how many months did you have to really work to get to that place once you set that in your mind? Well, I've been running consistently since 2018. I've trained for marathons and ultras and triathlons. And I ran a 248 marathon at Buffalo two years. years ago. So I knew 245 was doable. And then before this marathon prep, this prep was only about 12 to 13 weeks. But before that, I was in a prep for the last man standing out in Pineland Farm's Maine. So I had a good base going into into this marathon prep. Yeah. But it goes back to what you said. Like, I think I've realized over these years that you can

keep improving in all these different areas and aspects of your life running specifically. Yeah. I was just talking to someone this morning and they were collegiate athletes and they were training for their first marathon. And they were talking about how humbling the experience was coming from being this, you know, D1 college star and now training for their first marathon and it was so challenging and difficult. And I was telling them, running is that one thing that doesn't matter where you're coming from, where you get started, you can keep making progress.

Yeah. And I think this is a great segue into what I wanted to talk about right away was your marathon journey. Oh, yeah. I read that. It took you five years to bring five hours in the marathon. And I think you finally went sub five hours in 1995 at the Cleveland Revco marathon. Yeah, so it started off.

And my first one was in 91. And at that point, I'd only run like up to eight miles. Like I was on the track team, but I never scored my whole high school, middle school experience. I was usually towards the back of the group. And I came up with this idea I wanted to do the marathon. Sort of on a whim. I told my mom with like 10 days ago. And fortunately, she just said, okay.

Yeah, she was a nurse and worked the weekend. So she actually just dropped me off at the train. We had like a train that went from like our town in Berea down to Cleveland. And yeah, so from that, it took me five years to get under the break five hours. And yeah, you get to certain plateaus where you think it's, you don't really know that you can go further than that. Just kind of wild. It took me another, I think I did the sub three in 2000 in like, I want to say like 2009, maybe. So that took me 14 years. And so to go from breaking five years to break five hours. But then after that, it took me another 13 or 14 years to get under three hours. That's wild. That's so crazy. It doesn't seem like right. Yeah, it doesn't seem possible that you can take so long. I guess I was just slow it. It took the ultra road to getting to that point.

What's just like this incremental progress? incremental progress yeah nothing and i actually in that period i also had my son when i was very young and i went back to school and did my master's in teaching and when i was working on my master's in teaching there was a period where i actually i still ran but i was uh running like maybe three days a week and i i like went from like running like a three 19 marathon to getting back to like a three 50 or four hour or somewhere like that and then i went back again so it's interesting it wasn't like a a linear like approach that was always getting faster. There were times where I got slower before I got faster again.

I think that's, all of that is very relatable to a lot of people. Because I'm sure people who just come across you and they look at your most recent accomplishments in the last five, ten years, there I go, this guy's just, he was born to be a runner. Right, right. And you go back a few more years and a few more years and a few more years. And it's like, oh, if this guy is,

is doing it, I can also do it as well. So it's encouraging for a lot of people. But I think another part of that relatability, like you just said, you know, you had these transitions in life where life got crazier and your performance decreased, that's natural for a lot of people. Yeah.

Where there's chapters and seasons where you can go really hard towards certain goals. And there's times where you have to kind of let off the gas a little bit. But you can later when you have, the time and opportunity, press back on the gas. I think a lot of people need to hear that, understand that, because oftentimes, and I fall victim to this as well, when you have to let off the gas because of other responsibilities and obligations, there's this heavy sense of guilt that comes with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we could totally beat ourselves up. And then I guess it's like,

Greg and I, in fact, we're talking about this morning on the trail and just, what it is that motivates us. And like I always, when I had those only three days a week running and I, you know, backed off running, I just enjoyed that for like my, my mental side of it. Just like getting outdoors, it like was important for my mental health. And like having that the three days, like the roots of what my passion of running is, like just that experience of like just moving your body and like the getting your heart rate elevated and being outdoors and just like it feels like a cleansing experience. It's like meditation for me. It's like I feel like it just a total different person if I'm if I'm not able to do any type of running. I think it's it's difficult to like have that.

But yes, there is absolutely that the you know the waves. So it makes where we are now, where I went with Biggs, all the more sweeter because I didn't always experience success. I lost so many races or did it, you know, things that I had like a vision to do didn't exactly materialize. And it just kept on getting up and going again. You know, the whole go one more. Yeah. I'm curious, you know, talking about all of that, how you navigated that. I'm curious, me personally, but I'm sure a lot of other people are also listening to this, curious as well in terms of, you start training,

you start running, you make this progress. I think you can apply this to anything in life, not just running, but you start making incremental progress towards something, and then you get thrown this curveball, and you can't maintain that progress because your responsibilities shift towards something else. Yeah. When it's time to step on the gas again,

how do you how did you navigate decreased performance and then moving back into improved performance and now you know here you are decades later at the peak of your performance like how did you navigate that was their struggle were their lows was it all highs i i think one thing about me that's different than a lot of the um a lot of runners especially are performing at really high levels is I also didn't have like that collegiate experience, like, of running. You didn't have that either. But also, when I was in high school, I wasn't like a top performing runner. I mean, I was more in the back of the group.

And so my expectations were as much as I really wanted, like, always do my best. And I didn't have like this idea that I had to always win every race, you know. So if I think about that period where I was running like a 350 marathon, I also didn't think it was, at that moment in time, I really didn't think it was possible that I could, I didn't see myself as a sub three hour marathoner. And that's one of the things I think I've learned the most across this whole time is how we see ourselves. because if we see ourselves in certain ways, sometimes that impacts the way we actually act and what we go after. And if with where I saw myself, that was like implement. It was, it was nothing to happen overnight, but it was like incremental things that occurred to me. like going for example to India and following Gandhi's salt march like it was like a journey

241 miles by myself predominantly and I just had to like overcome hardship by or like running in like this hot human weather in like this incredible smog and but I just encountered these amazing people and there were many times I wanted to quit but But surviving that journey was like in 2007 was another like thing that made me stronger. But there were things like that that occurred along the map. Every couple years I would seek out adventures. And those adventures hardened me. And like also I learned a lot.

And it just grew. But it was never anything that was like overnight. Like it was a long, a long journey. coming. Yeah. Could you, could you feel and experience yourself evolving and changing and growing over these last, you know, a couple years, a year as being many years through running and is running helped you view yourself in a different way? Yeah, without doubt. Like running is, it is more than just a physical aspect, it's like such a mental aspect to it as well. Just putting yourself into uncomfortable positions that may seem really uncomfortable, but then it's like being in a yoga move where you're

trying to breathe through being in an uncomfortable position. So it, the running was a vehicle to train not with my physical self, but my mental self and learning to push through like fatigue, or whatever the hardship is or challenge might be, like running has been like an incredible force for informing me and educating me on like what is humanly possible. So I mean, I still feel like there's so much to learn. And I still like I feel like, you know, I don't know everything by any extreme.

And I love seeking out learning from others still. And that has been a really important part of like the whole journey as well. Like just learning from others in the community. So, yeah. Have you ever had to take off significant amount of time from running? I have been very fortunate that I have not. Like the most, well, the most was when I broke my neck actually in 2004. I had this really devastating car wreck.

happened to be on the 4th of July. A car spun off in front of me and I went off the car or the road to avoid hitting them. My car like rolled over like three times and I got out of the vehicle and I felt like like just it was like the most priceless experience because when you think you're going to die and then you survive it. It just is like you just can't think anything. Be more thankful than that. I can't imagine. Yeah. And so There was about, well, they end up doing surgery on me, and I had my fourth and fifth vertebrace fused with some titanium. I had an extra bone added into my neck. So for like two months, I had this neck brace on. Yeah, it was wild. I couldn't drive. I actually started walking

back and forth to work. It's just my routine. Like, so I still, and what I found also with that experience was movement is like critical. So I mean, uh, if you think about like what percentage of Americans unfortunately get no exercise whatsoever. It's like, uh, maybe the CDC says like a quarter of Americans. Maybe it's like 60% don't get like very much. That, that's like my body was aching when I wasn't moving. But when I started walking, like my body like, uh, loose. up and that was an incredible like uh i didn't feel pain like from i didn't take any pain killers once i left the hospital and it was the walking like just walking was like medicine um but it's that for two months i didn't run and then i had like i like actually went out and i did the

columbus marathon like three months after the accident and at that moment i actually finished in like four hours and like 30 some minutes. So like that was my slowest marathon I had, you know, other than pacing one. And so I was another time where things went the other direction. And it took me a whole year to get back to running like a under like maybe a 315 marathon. It took me a whole year to get to that. And then I just went for another different style adventure. So I started, I did a couple Iron Man races, which were also very interesting, like, because I wasn't a swimmer. I was like, the first triathlon I did, like a half-iron-man, I was like the second and the last person out of the water, like swimming portion. Do you enjoy the

swim? Now I love the swim. I'm still not like, I might finish maybe in like the middle part if I were or a little bit behind the middle if I were doing triathlon, but I love the swimming. I don't enjoy the swim. Yeah. I, I like exploring. things and trying to learn new ways and growing in those areas. And like, even though I'm not a great swimmer, I'll incorporate that into my regimen for like the, like, September, August and also May when we have an outdoor pool in Cincinnati, I can use. And I've, but yeah, so for, for about three months, I wasn't running. But other than that, I've been running like the last 11 years, I've run every day except for like eight. That's amazing. Yeah, it's pretty wild. Like, it's,

it's definitely part of my like existence for sure. I know we'll get into it, but I heard you mention that the day after you finished the 450 mile Biggs backyard Ultra. You went out and ran a mile the next day. Oh yeah. Yeah. To continue your streak.

Yeah. Actually, I ran, yeah, I ran a mile. Like I didn't get back to Cincinnati to like right before midnight, like 10 minutes, 15 minutes. So I ran a mile then. And then the next morning I got up and then we ran to my buddy who crew from me, Judd Pointexter, we ran to school. So we ran into school, which was a lot of fun because then my students all like, now Mr. Lewis, you won this damn race.

Now you ran all the way back to school again. We weren't expected to see you back this week. That's wild. But that was fun because that was like a learning opportunity to show them that like, you know, just, you know, show up, like, be there. Don't have like an excuse not to come. It's a great standard to hold in a great role model to be for these kids. You mentioned, this is a side note really quick, but you mentioned just like the power of movement and healing for performance, recovery, longevity. I was recently watching, I don't know if you saw it on Netflix.

It's this new docu series called Live to 100. It's all about the blue zones. Yes, 100%. I love it. It's amazing. I love it. And it explores all these different cultures and countries and geographic locations where people are outliving everyone else. And one of the common denominators outside of diet and what they are eating is just continuous movement throughout their lifetime. Yeah.

And you look at people who are in their late 80s, 90s, even hundreds who have a garden who are outside working in their garden. or working with animals on a farm or a ranch. And just continuing to move just improves our longevity and our health at such a significant meter that it is so vital and important. I think the younger you implement some of these routines and practices and behaviors, you make them a part of your life. You do them up until the day that you die, it's just going to improve every part of your mental, physical, and emotional health.

Most definitely. I mean, can you imagine, like, even society. Like, if you look at the greater society out here, and so many challenges would be, like, the mental health of people. Like, I mean, amongst our population. Yeah. And that's where I really like to get kids involved. And, like, I teach in an art school, so we don't really have a lot of sports. We have like basketball and cheering and we got some things.

But I always, even though I teach financial literacy and government, every Tuesday we have a Tuesday health tip that we start class with like just five minutes. But the movement is something I really try to like encourage students with like doing whatever that might be. Like there's so many things you can get involved with. But what kind of impact would that have on our country if we have? like we got 12 you know we we that number of people that are doing nothing like decreased by 50 percent you know we got that made more people active out here doing things i mean that would

imagine that impact on like the health care costs i mean as well well that's why i asked you about how long if you've ever had to take time off from running because we're all trying to get to and i'm very curious how did that time off from running expect influence or affect your your mental health, your mind, just the way you felt. Because for me, with running, yes, it is a performance metric. And it's a way that I like to exercise and just move my body. But I need it now for the mental clarity that I get. It's almost like a drug. I don't get it. I'm not the same person. I don't feel the same way. How did you feel in those two to three months where you couldn't move and you were in this brace?

How did that affect you? Yeah, that was a real special time because that was like a soul searching time because I really like felt like that while there was probabilities on my side, I still had like a 5% chance I could have died or end up paralyzed. So that time I was just so overtaken by like the gratitude of. of being alive, that it didn't, that didn't really impact me because I was just grateful to have movement. So the fact that I, for, like, there was, uh, the overnight, um, after the accident where I, I laid in bed and I was just so thirsty because you can't even have anything to drink

because they're going to do surgery the next day. And I just thought, like, I would just be so grateful if I can just walk. So the walking, even though I wasn't running to me was like, I felt like that was worth millions to me, like just to be able to walk because there was a chance I wasn't even going to have that. So then I was like, oh, yeah, I mean, the running thing, it was, I'm sure I would have loved once I started running, I was like, oh, this is amazing. But the walking was like amazing to me too because I was like, there was no guarantee that that was going to be there.

So just to be able to walk. and then I had just a commitment and a discipline and dedication that that that it was I was going to overcome that and it was going to be I saw like I didn't see where I was at that moment I knew that we were going I was going to go further with that and I would get back to where I believe I could get back to where I was I had no idea that would go another 30 minutes off my best marathon time at that point But see, actually having that accident with breaking my neck really informed my journey and it made me be able to do the things I did afterwards in some respects,

because I learned a lot from that experience of the mind. And it also rekindled my passion to not want to not take for granted the opportunities to run. go after things that we love. It actually makes a whole lot of sense based off of, you know, we just met, but like, your personality and the presence that you have online and in other interviews that I've listened to, the way that you described, the way you were feeling during those two to three months of not being able to run, you know, correct if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you always view life as your cup half filled and not half-emptive.

empty and it is not this scarcity mindset of what I don't have, but it's this abundance mindset of what I still have in the gratitude shown towards that. And I think it's really hard for a lot of people. It's hard for me at times. And I struggle with and I have to have honest conversations with myself of, hey, Nick, like, yeah, this didn't work out or you didn't achieve or accomplish this, but look what you have. Like, being so grateful for what you have. always been that way or was there something that happened that that told you that?

I definitely was not always that way. I don't think I was always that way. I mean, I yeah, I mean, I think about my parents, for sure when I, in my dad and my parents got divorced when I was like five. But, you know, my mom, I live with my mom in a very working class. area of Berea, and I never felt like without. So I mean, you know, we may have had like somewhat humble things on my mom where I was living with my mom. But yeah, I just was, so that's a very difficult question for me to answer. I don't, I can remember, I think certainly with like my experiences also traveling abroad. That sort of started when I was 18. I just on a whim, I decided to go to Belize after graduating high school. And like for me, I'd never really been out of the country. And I just went by myself. So I did that journey. And then later on when I was like 22, I went through like 17 countries of South and Central America, just like traveling really like on a shoestring budget, like taking the public transportation. And I feel like when I got out, I mean,

you can see in our own country, like when you see like poverty and things that people are experiencing. But traveling overseas also made me feel a great sense of gratitude for what we have. And I mean, I've seen it like in Alabama when I was doing like the Selma Civil Rights March. And actually we got a group of people together, including my friend Greg. And we ran the 54 miles retracing the Selma March. It was amazing. But along that journey, we saw people living in really, you know, difficult, like, housing without windows even in places. And when I see that, or I'm, like, in Haiti with my friend who's Haitian, David, and I see, like, people picking up scraps in a junkyard and are just, like, that's what they're living off of, which is, like, less than a dollar day.

then like I cannot do anything but feel like just gratitude for what we have in this country and what I have been given. So yeah, I think those are things that have kind of informed my journey more is like getting the exposure to people that are living in these difficult circumstances in different places. So I go and do an ultra, I'm like, well, you know, the altar is like really challenging and exciting. But, I mean, anytime at any of these altros, except for maybe Barclay, have to find my way back to the starting point. But I can easily just say, okay, I can like just, you know, check out, you know, say, okay, I'm tapped out. I'm done. But like someone, like these people I'm

seeing, like in a place like Haiti that, you know, they're living in such really extreme difficulty. Like, they can never know, they cannot just say, okay, I'm tapped out. Now I'm like, you know, every day, someone walking to get water. Like, imagine that. Just, you go walk miles to get water for your family. And then that's just the basic things that we have in this country. We just turn on the faucet and you got the water instantly. Right.

It's like, yeah. So I think those experiences made me feel very grateful for just everything. It seems like there's just so much perspective from the experiences you've had, all the countries you've been to, all the people you've met, seeing the highest of highs and others and the lowest and lows, I'm sure that just creates this very well respected and understood perspective. And it has me thinking about a lot of things right now, but I'm curious, I'm wondering your thoughts on this,

because you know, your teacher and you're influencing young minds and younger people is or are people limiting their experiences and perspectives because we have so much accessibility in the power of our hands where we don't have to go out and see things anymore because we can see it on a screen and does that exposure

facilitate a detachment to the hardships of the world the whole concept behind ignorance is bliss and if you don't see if you don't feel it, if you don't experience it, you can't really have that perspective of what is happening, so you can't appreciate what you do have.

How do you kind of navigate that as a teacher with these younger people, younger minds, and shaping them? I'm curious that, because we were just in New York City this past week, like I was telling you. And me and my wife were walking around. And, you know, coming from Nashville, you know, you walk around Nashville,

you see the same type of people walking around. And you go to New York City, it's this melting pot of different cultures and people and languages. And it's so amazing and beautiful to experience. You see everyone just live in their life and their bubble and practicing their culture. And it's respected and appreciated by all these different people. And I told Steph, I hope that one day our kids move away from us and they live in a city or they live in a different country or they go from country to country to country and just

experience the world so they come back and have this perspective that they can truly appreciate. And that's my hope for our kids as they get older. Teaching these younger kids, is that, is that owning your mind a lot? Yeah, it is, it is on my mind. And like, fortunately, one thing that I'm so grateful about is teaching at the School for Craven Performing Arts. So we're like, this is our 50th years of school. is a public K through 12 art school in Cincinnati.

And it is a very diverse student population. So we have kids of every different race. We have different religions. We have students of different income levels. So in a way, we're kind of like in a bubble because we have a diverse school. But it's not always that way. You know, you have a lot of schools.

I taught at it. school, my first five years, which was very de facto segregated, not where, you know, we had like 90, we had like maybe two or three percent of the population was white and the rest was African American or multiracial. And so it was like the other. And but I feel like in our, you know, in our country also we're kind of in a little bit of a crisis with, uh, in terms of like this polarization of people and villainizing like people for, you know,

being conservative or liberal. You know, it's like, uh, I mean, running is the best thing in the world because we're running with people. We don't think, oh, are you Republican, Democrat, green party,

libertarian, whatever you want to call it. But I feel like, yeah, with education, it, it would be, it would be so powerful for kids to get exposure to, like, kids in different places. We have volunteer

projects. So that's my only quick answer to you. Like, I have my students do volunteer projects and they have to do a certain number of hours and every quarter. And that's, I feel like that's one way to like try to build some empathy and like getting out there and doing something in a nonprofit. And yeah, but it's not, I'm not hitting the highest mark. Like I would love to get our kids together with kids and, you know, other countries more frequently. My buddy Greg Armstrong, I think he does a much stronger job of that. He teaches them private school here locally in Nashville. And he takes kids every three months to do a well project in a developing country. So, like, they're going to Nicaragua in March, and then they're going to go to Tanzania.

How old are these students? These are, like, high school kids. Okay. So, like, usually, like, 15, 16, 17-year-olds. I think occasionally might get a 14-year-old or he has kids that come back. They go to this. But, I mean, what a rewarding experience. I mean, to actually go and, you know, do that.

We went to Haiti together and took kids to Haiti. And that was just, oh, that was an incredibly enriching experience. And it was like kids had more empathy leaving that experience as well as more drive in their own personal life experience. Like after seeing like what they, the living reality, it just was, I think it was really transformative for a lot of these kids. So, I mean, that's not something everyone can do. Now everyone can just go and, you know, take off to, you know, do that sort of thing necessarily. But I really feel like, you know, even like volunteering in your own community is something powerful. You know, like that brings usually more to you than sort of even to the group that you're aiming to help.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's easy today to lose that feeling of empathy. One of the things we talk about all the time with me, Jordan, Ian, is it's really easy to live in these bubbles, not leave those bubbles, and that bubble creates its echo chamber. So you become very consumed with your life and the few people who are very close to you. and these small problems that arise feel like they are earth-shattering and that everyone should hear and listen to these problems when in reality from perspective what's what's hard for you relatively compared to hard for other people in different parts of the world is it's minuscule

it's it's nothing so i think getting out of these echo chambers that we sometimes can put ourselves in can help influence our ability just live with with empathy. And I found as a leader of a business and being a leader in my family and trying to be a better friend and father and faithful servant, being empathetic, if you're not naturally born with that characteristic, being empathetic is so important. It's so important. And it's something and that I'm constantly trying to work on and have more empathy with people around me and people struggling with something else.

But if we stay in this echo chamber, it's really easy to neglect that muscle that's being trained and it atrophies and it dies. When you were in South Korea, did you have any exposure with North Koreans, like that anyone that you come across at all? I was 13 miles from the DMZ. Yeah.

I was stationed at Camp Casey in South Korea. So we really, you know, there was no integration or exposure to anyone in North Korea. But that time in South Korea for me, I was there for nine months. It was actually amazing and a great experience because you know, we were there on a training rotation. So essentially we were doing our same job in South Korea that we would have been doing in the States. But we were essentially a QRF,

a quick reaction force in the event that North Korea pushed South into South Korea. And our base was right there, which we essentially would have been a speed bump for North Korea. forces. So we were there kind of on a QRF mission. But on the weekends, we were able to travel into the city.

I would go into Seoul. I would hop on the train. We obviously had restrictions on how far and where we could go. But we were able to go explore and travel. And I did. I took full advantage to that. Couldn't leave the peninsula. But I would go into the city.

I would go into, like, I said, soul, but then also smaller villages. And just having exposure and experiencing that culture in the way they lived and ate and the things that they practiced was very fulfilling and very enriching for me. It was also very humbling, especially when you go into these smaller villages where, you know, people are living on farms. They're growing their food. It's very widely spread out.

There's poverty there, far from the city. You go there, you see that, and you leave feeling very grateful for what you do have. Even going back to my barracks room, I'm like, wow, I had this beautiful barracks room compared to what you see when you're out in the farmland of Korea. So that was a great experience for me. I love that. I want to travel more. I want to take my wife and my family as they get older because I think, that experience just breeds such great perspective and lessons in life.

Yeah, definitely. And you had some good kimchi? To be honest, I hated kimchi when I was in Korea. Right. Get back from Korea, fall in love with kimchi. That is awesome. I think mainly because when I got back from Korea, I found out how good kimchi is for the gut. Yeah, yeah.

So for me with food, if I know something has positive benefits for my, body, I can learn to enjoy the taste of the food because of what it's going to do for me. That's fascinating. That nourishment. Yeah, that's fascinating. So my taste buds and my palate evolves based off what that can, how it can fuel me. That's a powerful statement, the last two you just said there. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's huge. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. But my partner, Kelly, she actually says I have to eat outside. She does not like the smell of the kimchi. Well, if you eat too much kimchi, you will sweat it through your pores as well. I believe it.

It's wild. So going back to you being a school teacher, you know, and then I do want to dive into some of these races, these massive efforts. But you've been running to and from work for the last 10 and a half years. Tell me how that started, why you do it. Is it of convenience for your training or where do that start? Well, it really started all way back in 1996. And I was working in this small manufacturing facility. And I would rely on my dad for driving me to work because my wife and I, my son's mother at the time,

we only have one car. So I was still a young man. I was like 20 and my father would lecture me about getting on time. So one day we just had like a little like squabble about it and I got tired of being lectured. So I said, I'm just going to run to work. Don't worry about it. So back then I started running to work and then I would as a necessity, I would actually like run to the campus of University of Minnesota. And then my son's mother would like pick me or we would actually rotate. Like she would like come to do classes like later part of the day. And we would do like a rotation with the vehicle. And I also worked in a catering on the weekends. And so I would do these catering gigs with Atrium Catering in Minneapolis. And I remember sometimes I would finish this catering

event and like I was wearing, you know, a really formal outfit. And it would be, on Minneapolis on the south side. Maybe it was a wedding that was catering in January or February. And it would be midnight. And I would like take my clothes, like change clothes, throw that in a backpack. And I'd run back to St. Paul. So it was like 10 miles. And I was back way back in the day.

And so it really started there. And then I sold cars for a little while after that period of time. And I was joke. I was like the only car sales person in America didn't have a car. I'd run back and forth a work. It was a lot of fun. My coworkers in mine. And then I went to, I went to teaching and it would be occasionally like at first

I would do it maybe once or twice a month. Like when I was teaching, I really just didn't have that as my routine. And then somewhere along the line we were doing this sort of project with government class and we were all saying, okay, it was something we could do to try to lessen pollution. and I said, okay, well, everyone in the class was committing to one thing. It could be something small or whatever you want to do. So I said, okay, I'm just going to like, you know, run to work for a month. And then I did that. And I was like, oh my God, I love, I love this. This is actually like great. Like, why didn't I just think of this? I was too worried about it being like

inconvenient or maybe I was going to smell or some little tiny thing like that, which was totally not even like an issue whatsoever. And I just felt wonderful doing it. It was a nice way to get the morning started, like kind of doing a warm-up, invigorates you. You get to school instead of me feeling like dragging. I actually felt more energy. And how far were you living at that time from the school? It was three miles one way. So that that was like the lowest, you know, a lot of times I would add on like depending on what I was training for. Like I'm might add on like five or eight miles like an afternoon or on the way to work. And yeah, so then after that month, I just like kept going and then made it like six months and a year. And I was

like, well, I guess I'm just going to keep on doing this because I also found a positive impact on my performances as well. You know, I mean, being very consistent with that. It helped me. I think I'll end up, I won bad water like the next year. And like, that was another big jump for me. That was a big race. And while that wasn't the only component, that was definitely one of the the elements that helped me to improve as an athlete was that consistency. So I do enjoy it. I can actually get to work. If I'm really trying, I can get to, and I bet you, with your speed right now, you could probably definitely beat the car. But I could like get to work. Oh, especially in Nashville traffic. Yeah. Yeah. So I could get to work faster by running than I could by driving my Jeep

and like parking and then walking a block from the parking area because we're downtown school. Okay. So it's, yeah, it's really interesting. I just love it. Like I mean, I really, I actually just, I don't take a shower when I get to school. I just change in the fresh clothes. I have like a closet. And I mean, I've had all kinds of people in the classroom from the superintendent to like the mayor members of Congress. All those people come in. No one's ever saying anything like Harvey, you smell. Like, no, because you just, it's like being in New York City and you just or you're dancing, whatever. You, I mean, it's like, I, I mean, it's like, I. I love the run commute. I don't see myself ever not doing that now, as long as it's not like I'm 20 miles each way or something like that. Yeah. I'll be honest.

There's a lot of times I run in the morning. Yeah. I don't shower after I run. And my wife's like, what are you doing? There's days where I'm drenched and sweat. Right. But the day's busy, the day's moving, and I kind of just forget about it.

And there's some clothes on, put some deodorant on, and I'm good to go. Right. And no one's ever told me I smell. either. People might not just be lying to me. But, you know, I'm someone who I know I'll shower at the end of the day. And I'm going to probably sweat at another point in that day. So I'll just skip that morning shower and carry on. Right. If it's raining or snowing, do you still run? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's non-negotiable. Yeah, it's a non-negotiable, which actually makes it,

it's kind of wild. I find that if I'm off from school, it might be harder for me to get out the door than if I, for sure, it's harder than if I'm like, I have my normal school day. So my normal school day, my mind is already like pre-committed to, it's like catching a bus. I know I have to leave the house by a certain time or I'm going to be late. So I'm always on time because I know there's there's no way I have to leave at that time or I have to run really fast. Yeah. And but it's, it's, yeah, it's quite amazing. It's, it just definitely like, just the health benefits of it.

I mean, doing that regular three miles morning, afternoon, doesn't sound like a lot, but it builds up. on itself. It's like investing. Compounding. Compounding. Yeah. So you just carry a backpack with all your stuff for the day? I just carry a backpack. I have, I don't, every night take my laptop home. I do probably like two thirds of the nights. So I'll throw my laptop in there. I have a change of like nice clothing I'll put in. And I have like my all my other stuff, like my food I put in the bottom. I might put that inside a Croker bag just so it doesn't like get out on everything else. But it's, uh, and I have sometimes I like will carry this giant backpack that looks like a backpacking like for doing like a week long

trip on the Appalachian Trail. And that's if I'm like bringing extra food into class or something like that. I'll just throw all this. And it looks like, you're like, what are you doing running down the road with all this stuff like lugging it like you're like going up Kilimanjaro or something? But I, I, it's, it's really, it gets to be very easy. It's like my mind is committed when I'm off from work, that's more difficult. Like if I'm off from work, maybe it might be, I'm like doing other things. I procrastinate. I'm like, especially maybe if it's, I haven't trained my mind and it's like rainy and like 35 degrees. I'm like, I'll wait to like 11 and then it's 12 and I'm like, oh, shoot, I have to get outside. You know, it's like that thought process. But with the run commute, there's no thought process to it.

It's just like automatic. Like I don't debate myself. It's already pre-committed. So I'm just no matter what the condition is. If it's like, if it's three feet of snow, I will be the one teacher there. Like there's nothing that will stop me. Like I will make it before the cars make it. Like really difficult conditions because I've got other equipment.

So it doesn't bother me. Like rain, all the other things. I mean, that's the power of routine. Yeah. You know, like, I wake up and I have my same routine every morning, wake up at five, drink my coffee, get ready for my run, five, six, I'm out the door running. And if I have, even if I have nothing to do that day, I'll still run in the morning. My wife asked me, like, Nick, you got nothing going on today.

Like, it's a Saturday. We're not doing anything. Run later in the day. I'm like, no, that is part of my routine. I have my best runs. It's 6 a.m. I don't enjoy running in the afternoon. I like when it's morning, it's dark. Like that is just, it makes it so easy for me because I don't even think about it. So with some of these bigger efforts that you're training for, say this Biggs Backyard Ultra or Barclay, for example, how do you get the mileage you need in a week on top of those commuting runs to and from work?

Are you extending those runs in the afternoon? Or are you just accumulating a bunch of miles on the weekend? Most weeks, I run three times a day. So I run oftentimes in the morning. Now I run in the afternoon and I get everything home. And then I go back out and I go running further. So that's why I'm really in my train. You're just running all the time.

I'm just running all the time. And then on the weekends, I like go out. I like to run in the morning as well. I'll go run like for maybe it depends on the race, like what I'm training for. Barkley is different. Barkley requires a whole lot of time because you're moving slow. So for example, like we could go out and just have like a nice little chilled 20 mile run and be all finished in three hours and that was no problem on the road.

But when you're going and doing a Berkeley race, you know, like more than half that race happens off trail. steep, crazy terrain like you exposed to in Georgia with the Ranger training. It's so cool. That you have to like spend a lot of time going and doing power hiking up stupid steep, crazy stuff and like running down stuff that no one would ever think they would want to do something like that. And so that takes a lot more time. So doing Barclay, it might be out for like five or six hours on a Saturday or maybe like the Sunday too, just because it's, you need that time to cover like the territory. It takes a lot longer. Like to do maybe 20 miles, that could take six hours just because of the terrain is crazy. So, yeah,

it's, I do find like, I just, it depends on what's going on with life. I will wake up earlier if I have to in the morning. But I tried to like, just fit it all in. And, and the, in the weekends or long runs usually. What's like an average distance for a long run or time? Well, you know, I'd use races for training too. So that can vary. Like I did a 60K race like a month before Biggs backyard. It was like 37 miles.

And that was like a mixed road mostly trail race. And that race was like that was like four hours and some time. But, you know, the amount of, it could be, yeah, it varies. Like for, it just varies quite a bit. You know, it depends on a lot. I'm trying to always simulate the race I'm doing. So whatever the race is, if it's a, I'm trained for bad water, what bad water happens on the road, and it's a lot of mountains.

So I'll do like maybe I'll shift my training to doing like more 75. 80% road. Or if I'm training for like Western States, for example, which I'm going to be doing for my first time ever in June. I saw that. I saw that. I'm really excited about that. So for that race. I'll be out there. I'll be pacing for a leg of that race. Sally McGray. No way. You're going to pay Sally. Yeah. I'm going to pay Sally a little bit. Oh, that's amazing. I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah, I'm so psyched for it. That's so cool. So we would definitely be seeing each other. Yeah. Yeah. Sally and I know each other well. We've done a bunch of race. with bad water and, man, that's so great.

You're going to be crewing for her. Yeah, I'm super excited. That's so cool. Yeah, and I knew she wanted to do Western States. And then she told me a few weeks ago, you know, she's prepping for her. She put all this work in. Yeah. She asked if I want to pace her.

I was like, absolutely. Absolutely. So I'll see you there. Wow. That's great. That's really cool. Yeah. So you opened up the case.

can of worms for Berkeley. Yeah. We got to go into some Berkeley stuff now. I was first introduced to the Berkeley Marathons, probably like most people, through Gary Robbins film

titled Where Dreams Go to Die. Right, right. And I remember, I've probably watched this documentary on YouTube dozens of times. And I was training for my first Iron Man.

And I remember being on a treadmill on my honeymoon in Cabo with my wife. And I had a 14-mile run for that morning. So I'm knocking on the treadmill. I have my phone on the treadmill. And I'm watching this documentary called Where Dreams Go to Die. And it got me so jacked up and excited.

And I was so curious, interested, and intrigued by the Barclay Marathons. Yeah. Can you give a high-level overview what the Barclay Marathon is? because I think it started in 1986. Am I correct? Yeah, you got good, right? That's right. There's only been 17 people.

That's absolutely right. Who have finished this race. Right. Why is this thing so mysterious and such a beast? This race is as iconic as can imagine. It is a very like secretive-ish, like, cult like a classic type of event. I mean, like there's, there's this following that's thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousand people know about this race across the globe now.

From that film, as well as the one that's also free, it's like the, where, oh, what is it called? I forget the one that came out first in like 2013. I'll come back to it. But it's, it's, Laz, he had this dream of creating this race. He first went out there to the Frozenhead State Park. And the park rangers thought it wasn't even possible to do this 20 mile perimeter trail back then because it wasn't like maintained even like it is today. And the race has just evolved over time. So the race is primarily, it guessed to be maybe about 120 miles. And you basically are covering about 66,000 feet of climbing. So it's about two times of Mount Everest up and down. And you have to find the books that are hidden in the woods. So there's like maybe 12 to 14

books. And Laz is classic, like just a character of a race director. He just got inducted into the ultra running Hall of Fame this last couple weeks. But he basically gives you a rudimentary map that you have to copy onto your own map. And you have to follow his cryptic directions, which are very difficult to break down if you're not really familiar with the landscape. So it's, it's, is very difficult because it's often like, they never tell you what the exact date is. It's a secret. But it happens in March to the beginning of April. And it's usually really wet that time of year.

But even like about three years ago, they had a variation of like 78 degrees down to like 20 degrees in like a matter of 24 hours. So it's like they get crazy rain. usually most years you get rain and like fog which you're you're navigating in the dark off court off trail like you have to go like more than half of this race happens off trail and you have to find these books who are hidden in the woods and there's only 40 runners so typically maybe half the runners are from overseas or more and people get lost uh off track and yeah very rarely does someone finish is like a finishing rate of less than 1%. And in fact, this last year we had three runners finish,

which was we had a drought of like six years of no finishers. So anytime someone finishes the race, Laz goes back to the drawings, which change every year by like maybe 10 or 15% to just keep everyone guessing where the route's going to be. But he makes the course more difficult. So the course now is much more difficult than it was even in 2010.

or in 2000, it continues to get tougher. And like he pushes the precipice of what is humanly possible. So it's like dangling a carrot. Like it seems maybe it's not possible to do, but you know like, well, if all things went just absolutely perfectly, you know, maybe, maybe it would be like the Indiana Jones film where you just slide underneath that door just as a door is slamming. You somehow, luckily, you made it. You finished the race. But I should tell you. take luck out because there's nothing to do with luck. I mean, a lot of it has to do with just the amount of like focus, building your focus, your knowledge of the course and learning how to navigate in the dark, in the rain. I think maybe you would like it. Being a ranger. I've always been curious.

I think you may enjoy that sort of adventure. When I had Courtney on the podcast, you know, we went to dinner the night before and we were talking about. about it. And she's like, if you want to do it, we'll make it happen. I was like, I got to be fully prepared. I've been watching you prepare for for Barclay. And which I want to talk about. Yeah, yeah. But that race just is so interesting. You know, you can't wear a GPS watch, correct? Right, right. And it's all compass in map. And even the way that you have to apply and enter the race is super mysterious. Right. It's like all the, these different things you got to do. And then there's books that are located on the course.

You have to pull the page corresponding with your bib number to show LAS that you found the book and completed the lap. Yeah. What happened the last time you did Barkley? Like how far did you get? What happened? Where did it? So the first year, the first year I did it. Courtney and I, we made it about one and a half loops. And I actually teamed up with Courtney on loop number two. and we got turned around in the cold rain about 33 degrees. Just pouring rain, we didn't bring enough like rain equipment and warm or close because once we're looking for like a book, we couldn't find the book and we're spending a lot of time just not moving.

So you get really chilled fast. So that was the first year. Like we made it one and a half loops. And then last year I went back and I like learned a lot. I made some mistakes. But I was very happy because I did my own navigation. And I pulled, like we call people who do this race for first time virgins versus veterans. And so I had a couple virgins with me that were trailing off of me.

And it was kind of exciting because my first year, I followed a guy from New Zealand who was a world champion of Rogain. Like venture racing, finding this man was incredible. Greg Hamilton. and he could like find a dot like two miles away off course without even like in a perfect tangent running down steep mountain terrain holding a map and a compass while he's moving and I'm trying my best to keep up with him and he's running down the mountain looking like this. Was he military? No, he was not.

But he just, I mean, he just is pretty funny because like the next day it was cold rain and he's just running around with like a shirt on that t-shirt. I'm like the heat really got him though. I could tell the heat would get him if it was really, really hot. He was affected by like 68 degrees. Like, oh, it's hot. I'm like, but I'm seeing him operate in the cold. I'm like, wow, you're amazing. It's different blood. Different. It very, it's what he's conditioned to living in New Zealand. Like, they don't have, you know, it's what he's conditioned himself to. But like the, last year, I made it to, I miss the second loop finishing it by 10 minutes, which in that course where you're talking about you get 12 up to 12 hours per lap, like that's a matter of like inches.

It's so close. So I got really close to finishing the second loop. And if I had done that, then I would have had, you get 40 hours for the fun run, which is the third loop. I wouldn't have been able to go on to the fifth loop. I would have had a really good shot of hitting like the fun run. So I didn't bring enough food with me on the second loop was one mistake. How long do these loops take you?

Well, the first year I did it, it took me eight hours and 37 minutes, and we were moving fast. The second year, I tried to pace myself and move a little slower, so I wouldn't, like, so I would be able to do five loops if I could pull that off. And I did the loop in like 10 hours and 30 minutes, and I felt like that was a little too slow. like I should have moved faster because now I was up against the rope like I had to make that night because it was a daytime I did that so moving at night is slower

and I had like 13 and a half hours to make that nighttime loop and yeah so it's really interesting like Laz starts a race with a Kong shell you when well I mean he actually starts let you know you have an hour

to get ready with a Kong shell and then he starts to race with a cigarette which seems so totally counterintuitive I've never seen that at the dock, I was mind-blown. Right. Is last. But yeah, I mean, this last year I also carried too much extra clothing. Like I had my backpack.

It's because the year prior to this, I like was out there without enough stuff. And I was like, well, if it's going to be cold, we had these certain like forecasts, which I wasn't really sure. And like, it was not supposed to rain. And like the day of the or before the race started, it wasn't supposed to rain. We saw like sleet and rain. I'm like, I could just picture myself. I didn't want to have to like tap out because I got had this cold rain that like inundade me and I couldn't finish the lap. So I made, I made some mistakes in terms of like I think I carried too much equipment and I should went lighter on the first lap.

And then I didn't bring enough calories. I ran out of my food by like definitely like two thirds of work. way or half, a little over half away into that second loop, which once you don't have the nutrition, you don't have the energy, like you're a zombie. Like, it's like you, you feel like you're in molasses. You're not like moving like your normal self. Right. It's so important. So what makes this race so hard? I'm sure there's a lot of components to it, but is it the actual physical beating that you're getting from the terrain, the elevation, the distance, the time on feet, or is it the fact that you don't know where the course is and

you're trying to find the route or is it a combination of both? It's kind of a combination of different things, but like John Kelly, you know, he finished it last year and his second time finishing it. And he's also a local to the area. So he grew up there. So for him, I don't think it's as much of a challenge in terms of like the navigation as for me. Like that, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, navigation creates some anxiety for me because normally I can go to a race and I just know, well, if I give 100% effort, like, I'm just going to stay into the mix. Like, I'm going to be with it. And I really have to be careful of mistakes like, you know, with nutrition or pacing. But with this race, I can't just focus on like my pacing, my nutrition. Like those are just

and what I'm wearing out there because that matters too. I have to really be. conscious because I might be out there for hours and hours by myself and not see another human beings. So I have to, there's no, a lot of times, the bumper, like the bumper guards are not so clear. I mean, it's nice if you have a creek on the right side, you know, you can't cross the creek. But other times, if you go past something, it's not like you can pull your phone up and look at like, oh, where am I? You know, it's like, if it's dark and it's like last time when I was out there, we got a little turn around. And literally it was so amazing, but I saw this concrete pipe, like in the middle of nowhere, and I recognize it from like before. Like the other race,

the other year I had done it. I recognize that little, in the middle of the giant woods, this concrete pipe that helped me to realize where I was exactly relative to the next book, which is crazy because it's like sometimes there's little. So that's one of the things I love about the Barclay is because I far from mastered it. So it pushes me in terms of skill level to be using my mind as well as my body. And you have to be super alert. You know, if I'm doing bad water,

I could absolutely put my mind somewhere else. Like I can almost close my eyes and run down the road. And even if I tripped on something, it would be no big deal at all. You know, like I fall down, no problem. I just get back up. but with Barclay there are so many rocks underneath the like leaves so if you step wrong like you could really you know Jared Campbell twisted his ankle getting to the first book a few years back and

he's finished a race before so he was you know he was out of it like by the time he hit that first book and you have to be so conscientious all the time of what you're doing and yeah there are even some drop-off points too. I mean, so if you're like not being as smart about what you're doing, you could really serious, for me, I feel like I could seriously hurt myself. Yeah. So I mean, other people may feel like John Wayne or something out there. They just go, but like for me, I feel like I really have to be conscientious of where I'm placed in my feet. And like, I'm still falling. Like, I'm like running down the hill faster I normally ever, I mean, it's definitely faster than any other time I run. Even in training, I don't run as fast going downhill

off trail is I actually do during the Barclay race, which doesn't seem right. But it's like, I just let go of like inhibitions. And like there's something about being in a moment of race. So I'm just like, okay, yipi-e-e, let's go. And it's just like, boom, going down these steep mountains, running down, falling, running, getting up, falling, running. It's so, it is so interesting this race. And as you're describing this, I'm, like my palms are sweating, thinking about the intimidation of this experience because as you described it, any other race, you can almost go into autopilot.

You can shut off. And like you said, your mind can go elsewhere. Yeah. And you can almost detach from the effort itself and the pain because it's just let my body do the work and my mind can go somewhere else. With this, so you have to stay so sharp. And you can see and I can understand

of why it gets so challenging with each additional lap because your mind is getting less sharp. Things are getting fuzzier. You're getting tired. You're fatigued. You're probably hallucinating at some point. You're trying to put out this massive effort, but you're also trying to navigate. And as I'm thinking about just, you know, navigating at night, in the day, at least you can probably train associate. and you can pinpoint where you're at based off of the train features on the map and then

that you're surrounded by at night though it's dark and you don't see anything so you're really just going based off of i guess compass feel pace like are you keeping pace count as you're running there are a lot of runners that do that i'm not good at that so i haven't i haven't mastered that yet so it's the the runners who are the most successful in this race they know the course well enough that they don't have to check their maps very often or their compass bearings very frequently as frequently. But even like I made a mistake coming on the second loop when I had another runner with me, Peorter, and basically I was kind of overconfident. Every time I've been overconfident, I've made mistakes. Like that's been an issue. Like so I was, I thought I had it

in terms of like our direction. But at nighttime, it's tricky. Because like I thought I had it. And then we ended up like about a quarter mile off target, like near another side of prison. And then at that moment, then you're reorienting. And it's difficult because you're like, like you said, it's nighttime and you're looking. And it's like, well, that shouldn't be there. And then you're trying to figure out like it's this creek shouldn't be over here.

Why is that? Why is that? Yeah, and you get turned around. So yeah, it's, uh, it is absolutely a really exciting race. And the runners who come are like gladiators. Like, uh, there, many of them have been dreaming of this race for some of them as much as a decade or five years. Uh, even like, uh, if you could see, like secrets, but like even like the weight list of like that goes like 45 deep. Like there were some of the best runners in America like on that wait list last year, you know, like that weren't in the race. Right. So it's like there's people that are, it had come from overseas. I don't know them, but they're remarkable runners. And that's kind of a cool thing too. Like you have a big Berkeley following in France and Belgium and like all over the world. There's like, you know, when I was it down in a

Australia. Like there are people really interested in a backyard ultra, but I also had a couple people like chat to me about Berkeley and how they're really intrigued by that race. So it's, it's really quite exciting like the whole world down there. What are you changing to your training right now in preparation for Berkeley compared to what you've done historically? Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because I found like a lot of the runners, they seem very secretive about their training for Berkeley. But for me, I don't mind about being sort of transparent. because I actually feel like it's, it helps all of us to, to, to help each other in the race. And like, sometimes you have veterans that will try to, like, scalp or like, they'll try to, like, they'll try to scrape rather, like, virgins off of them. So if they don't want to, like, have the person running with them because they don't want to do the work for them with the, they'll try to do that. But with my training, I've, I've, off trail. Like, that's where I need to invest more time is running off trail because it's not, it's like counterintuitive. You're moving slower. And so it's going off trail, more hills, more climbing. Like those are giant elements.

Before, before little things too. Like, I mean, even before Biggs, I started doing cold showers every day. I don't do anything but cold showers and hot baths. So I did that for a month up to bakes and I like continue that. So I mean, I feel like conditioning your mind to being not like to love every temperature. So I mean, I have to really tell myself that I love the cold rain in 33 degrees. Like that's beautiful. I hope it's cold rain 33 degrees because that's probably what we're going to have in terms of odds. So I feel like there's so much of a mental aspect running at nighttime. So I'm running more at nighttime in the woods because that's also something I don't necessarily like say I may I may want to get up in the morning and like maybe I say like oh I like running in the daylight

you know it's it's kind of nice but I have to like reorient my mind so I like running as much at nighttime as I do in the daytime and like throughout the year my mind will shift on these areas that fit into the race I'm doing so when I'm getting ready for for a bad water for example then I'm like doing all these additional heat elements and like telling my body and myself how much I love being in the heat. But like with with Berkeley, I can't say that. I have to like shift my mind away from the bad water personality of myself and like say because I do love the heat. But I got to say the chance of it being warm in in Berkeley is like not so great. You know, it might be like 78 or 80 degrees. I have to really tell my, you know, condition my mind to believing that, that, like,

with 20 degrees, 30 degrees, including rain and I'm, like, wet. Like, I listen to your book, on Audible, and you were talking about how you were out there, and you guys started, like, singing in the dark. In the mountains of Georgia. Yeah, that was beautiful. Yeah. And that's like that, so much as a shifting. your mindset. So then it became easier for you guys to go through hell by you just taking it and going

head on with that mind. So that's why I try to do. I really try, and I have a lot of work ahead of me. So I'm just at the, I'm just at the beginning phases, and I don't have a lot of time. It always feels like when I get to this race, it doesn't, it's going to be there before tomorrow. It seems like it's coming fast. That's how it is for any of my race that do too. Yeah. You know, you're, I'm like, say, 10, 12 weeks out. And I'm thinking, I'm ready. Like, I just wanted to be here. Then you're a week out and you're thinking, I need more time.

I need more time. I kind of want to shift that, that whole thought process. Because I am so interested in the way that your mind works and navigates these races. So, Laz, being this crazy character who created the Barclay Marathons, also hosts Biggs Backyard Ultra. and you just set the world record in 2023 a few weeks ago at Biggs Backyard Ultra of 450 miles. That's four and a half days of running. It was 108 laps.

Yeah. 108 laps. You know, when did you find this whole concept of last band standing races? and what did you think the greatest potential looked like then compared to what it is now? Man, that was, I go back to like, it was in 2016, I think I vaguely heard about this bar or the Big's Backyard. And I thought, yeah, that's not kind of interesting. Like how that works, that you basically do 4.167 miles every hour. And it rotates between. the trail in the day and the road at night. And every day, you'll cover 100 miles. So I was doing

a lot of 24-hour races at that time. And I was doing bad water. But I actually put it up to a vote, being the government teacher. And I had on social media. I was like, to people who are following me. I said, I had that race. I had like a six-day race. And a race in Oman that was like a stage race and some other race. I don't remember the hour one was. And overwhelmingly, like 80% of people voted for me to go do bigs. So that was my first like, okay, I'm going to go out in 2000 or in 2017, I went and did it. And going into the race, it was, it was so, because I've seen the evolution of race from 2017 to 2023. And it was very just laid back. Like, I mean, there were people there that were going to run their first half marathon, which was really amazing.

Like, I showed up the night of the before. I got there. I would taught that day, drove the four and a half hours down to Lazas or five hours, and I slept in my jeep. I got there about midnight. I didn't have my crew. My buddy Judd was going to come later on the next day, round one. and it just was a it was a lads just brought a whole other dimension to it because he's he's a bit like a poet I mean he is uh he elevates the races that he organizes uh it's like an art form for him he finds a way to create these races which bring out the greatest in people you know to push beyond their very like capacity of what they think is imaginable. And the exciting thing about, you know, Biggs is it like is a race with no finish. So you have no idea how far it might actually go to. But back then, the record was like 200 miles.

So when we hit 200 miles and it was myself and Guillaume, a French runner. And I think a lot of people didn't think I would do as well as I did because they had associated me as being like only a road runner on. and they didn't realize I'd like to run on trail and road. And so I just remember, Giam, like, I'm thinking, okay, it's 204 miles. We got the record. Now, I wonder how far this guy's going to want to go because I thought maybe it would just want to go a couple more laps. And then we kept going. And then it's like, well, geez, I didn't take that many days off work. I got to get back to work like the next, you know, pretty soon here.

And I started thinking, like, well, geez, if we get to three. 300 miles because some people there were starting to talk about, well, maybe this will go to 300 miles. And that's not ever happened before. And I thought, like, geez, if we get to 300 miles, I don't know if I'm a quiz, he got to quit. And so it just becomes that psychological game. And ultimately, I was the assistant that year. I went 241 miles and then I, like, bowed out to Giam and he finished and won the race. But it was electrifying in terms of, like, the, amount of followers. Like, I had never done a race where it had, like, more and more people started jumping

on to watching what was happening as the race continued. I didn't even know, like, that would happen. But we had, like, got past, like, 150 miles. And then it was almost a whole day that Gim and I were the only ones in a race. Like, everyone else had dropped out. And, like, I was getting, like, the people there were like, oh, yeah, these people in different places and countries of following. what's going on and, you know, everyone's excited about what's happening here. And it was,

so after the race happened, there was also just a giant interest in like the race. And I think that also intrigued like Courtney and Maggie. And they actually decided to come out to the race, I think the following year after seeing like, you know, our experience in the race that year. And so like, you know, Courtney coming. She has like a giant following. He's like, you know, so big. And that even brought more interest into the race because people are like, and then in 2019, Maggie won the race outright. So it's phenomenal. I mean, you see like a woman beat all the men and was a champion. Like that was just an amazing thing. Showing like, you know, the further you're going in distance, there is it becomes more of a mental aspect than a physical asset pact and like there's

it's so the whole race just uh was something that I like the strategic elements to it but I also like the element of pushing myself and discovering like what is possible and then in 2021 you won you hit the record 85 laps 354 miles going into that year, did you know you were going to go over? Were you prepared and ready to go over 300 miles? Well, we had never hit 300 on the course. And I really, I thought it was possible because, but I didn't know, like, how far it would go.

I never know how far the race would go. But at that moment of time, I committed myself to like saying, always prior to that, I had like given up because I had given up, like because I psychologically gave up. Like I mentally said, okay, I can't go further. But really, I had never physically given up. Like, I had not gotten out there and been timed out because I couldn't make it back. I had made the choice in my mind, even though I maybe didn't think it was a choice. I made the choice in my mind and said, okay, I think I'm done. I'm done.

I can't, I said in my mind, I said, I can't go out and back. But I didn't actually go out on the course and then failed to make it back. It was like I gave up mentally versus giving up physically. So that's 2021. I was my, I shifted that and I said, okay, you know, I don't want to give up again because if I, if I don't make it, okay, but I don't want to not make it because I mentally say that I'm done. If I'm not going to make it, I want it to be because I physically cannot make it to finish that lap. Right. That's why that was one of my shifts.

So I heard you say before that these races are 70% mental, 30% physical. Do you still believe that? Oh yeah, without a doubt. Like, I mean, it's, I don't have exact figures in terms of that, but it's somewhere in that range. Yeah, it's a range. Yeah, yeah. There's a range there, but where it 100% it, originates in your mind. And like even my buddy, you know, Greg Armstrong and I, we were talking today,

and he's talking about, you know, he's a really competitive runner, ultra runner, and he's run like over 150 miles and 24 hours. And he said, like, yo, he hasn't run a race in two years with ultras. And he's planning to do one in February. And he's like, you know, so much of it is like regaining the confidence. the mental aspect because just as your physical body can atrophy, like your mind can also atrophy in terms of like you have to construct your mind to being able to do these things as much as your body. So it's 100% like a major like mind aspect to this in terms of training too. Like as you have to get yourself motivated and discipline to get out there, do all the work to prepare your body so you can withstand it. That takes the mind as well. Once you get out there,

like there's a million reasons you could come up with where you could say, okay, I'm done if you're going to let yourself do that. You can always find a reason to quit in the mind, and you have to find your why of why you won't do that. Unless you're like having blood in your year in or you have like a injury that you could like develop a long-term injury from. You know, those are things for me. Like if it's not something like that, like I'm not going to ever quit a race because I'm not going to be, I'm going to be the last person. If I have to be the last person, I'll be the last person. I would rather finish last in a race than to quit the race because I'm not going to be in the top three or the top 10 or whatever that might be.

because it's just the way I look at it. For me, I feel like more driven to finish the race. It's just my mindset towards it. Yeah, I think, I don't think I know how powerful the mind can be. And I always talk about setting the conditions in terms of your training and your environment and your physical. preparation, but I also believe and trust and know that you have to set the conditions mentally going into something as well. I think back to, like, I'll use this past marathon, for example.

From the time I get on a plane and head to wherever that race is at, my mind is a completely different place and a completely different thing than it is the weeks leading up to. I am so hyper-focused. The morning of the race, it is like the most dialed it can be. And as we're moving into the corral, like at CIM, moving into the crowd, you know, there's a lot of people who are taking photos and they're having conversations about where they ate dinner at night or why they're not going to run the best race in their life. You can hear, you can overhear all these conversations. Well, you know, this happened my life so I didn't have the best training program. So I'm just going out there and put down in a good effort.

I tow that line and my head is just dialed in. And I'm ignoring like everyone and anything around me. Because I know that over the next what I wanted to be less than two hours and 45 minutes, I had to be so physically and mentally intentional with every mile of that race. and I know if I'm not in the right mindset that it all falls apart. None of the physical preparation matters because I didn't set the conditions

mentally to get there. And I know that when I physically prepare and plan and I put myself in a position to execute and my mind is right, game over. It's so powerful. I really want to understand where your mind goes when it gets really, really hard.

And where is that? Like in that 450 mile race, at what point did you start thinking to yourself, this is actually getting tough? And where did your mind go? Yeah. So honestly, yeah, there are a lot of points where that happens. And it's like your flow of thought can diverge into two different ways. So it's like if you let your flow of thought continue down the rabbit hole, the negative way, Like, you're going to self-destruct.

So, like, I'm always trying to re-channel my flow of thought into a direction that is with the frequency of where I'm headed with the race. You know, so where it was really, I remember even, like, the second night, I was, like, I was feeling tired, like, in the second night, which is so crazy. Like, that wasn't even halfway through the race. And I was feeling tired. And I would never say I'm tired. but like I would tell my my crew member I said like you know I'm just feeling kind of tired you know I'm not going to quit but I'm feeling kind of tired and and and so just finding in it depends on what degree of like risk you're at like if I'm at a risk of like like failing not failing but like just crashing and getting knocked out then I'm going to be managed to be managed to be managed that differently than if I'm like just six hours from like possibly crashing the ship. So what I mean by that is like if I'm in a moment where it's like I'm really pushed up against

the wall, then I'm thinking of like motivation for just the next loop. And, you know, that might be as simple as like I'm going to like what the food is, the next lap. Like that seems crazy, but I'm motivated by food. I love food. So I did the same thing. When I did last band standing in Maine, I was doing the same thing. I was thinking about what I was going to eat.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'd love to hear more about that experience too for you. And then, but honestly, like, it's also, it can be who you surround yourself with. So like Yellow Runner, like getting you for the team in Western States, that's a huge deal. because she knows she can predict what you're going to be like.

You're going to have a positive, like, attitude. You're not going to say anything negative. You're going to be willing to help any way you can. Like, it's predictable. And, like, that's also really important. Like, my crew chief, Judd, he is quite amazing. He's able to, like, he's just really clever. He's able.

we actually met in a race in Morocco back in 2016. He had never done any marathons in his life, and he was on a plane. He saw this marathon De Sálo's race, and he's like, oh, I want to do that. He does bike racing, all these other types of crazy things. And he just practically did one marathon to get ready, and he jumped into that, you know, 160-mile journey across the Sahara Desert. But when he's there crew, for me, I could say, you know, I told him, I'm in a difficult spot. And he's like, you know, Harvey, you just keep on running back and forth.

You're going to run these people down. Just keep on running back and forth. And then the 2021, he's like, I told him on like, I think it was the around 100. It was around that same point, somewhere that second night. I said, I was having difficulty. He's like, just imagine you're running to work. He's like, those nighttime loops, just going, you're going out and back, running to work. And when he said that, for some reason, it worked for me. It clicked. And I was able to, like, turn on that auto mode where I get up in the morning and I just go out and I run to working back. So having a very strong person as your crew can also really be huge in the overall equation.

But on a note of that. One of the things that Chad Wright told me one time that I will never forget, said your tongue is your rudder. and as soon as you say something, it comes out to your mouth, if you don't have someone to self-correct that for you, that rudder will take you right to where you don't want to go. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I hate to say it here because it's kind of probably make it tougher for me in the races in the future, you know, at Biggs.

But there were a lot of other runners where I heard them say negative things. And I'm like, if you say something negative, like you're done. Like, I've already known you're done. So, I mean, like there was runners. that were on the fourth day I heard them complaining about having to go up the there's some places where you have to make bigger steps up on hills and I heard him complaining about that I'm just like that's just fuel to my fire like I'm like it's like that yeah if you're you're complaining feel and hear the weakness yeah if you're complaining that's like just I don't ever complain like if I do

no I don't ever complain like if I say something I may say it to my crew member, but even then it's not in a complaint format. It's just like, I'm a something I'm dealing with. But it's, yeah, complaining, like, I think it really, it's at channeling your flow of conscious. And like, you could take it down that rabbit hole that's going to take you to a dark place or you can like rechannel it to somewhere positive. So when you're dealing with that, like difficult, you just like make it about, well, you know, like, this is exciting. Each of these steps is one more step further than I've ever done before. You know, you just shift like what you're saying or you make up a mantra.

You're like, I will go. You know, something simple, whatever it is. Like there's a, I'm strong, you know, whatever. Just you repeat that. You reprogram your mind to believing it. and then you be it. So it's, it is a, it is, the biggest race is really something exciting because it makes, it makes you push yourself to that very limits. How many times did you have to reshift that flow to something positive over the course of 450 miles? I got to a point where I probably

did that like unconsciously like it just but I'm sure I had to do it uh I'm sure like the they're probably would imagine almost every lap there's probably something stuck in my mind um where I was like for example I really struggled with sleep like the night before the race this year was unprecedented I only got three hours of sleep and I really was it was one of those times where my mind was just so active and thinking about everything and I couldn't calm down my mind, which is like not like me. I've had like three other times in my life experience of running where I had that bad of asleep the night before a race. And like going into like the biggest race experience of my life, getting three hours of sleep is like crazy. So then in the

race, the first three days, I wasn't able to fall asleep at all. Like I just laid there with my eye shut. And when I did my last backyard in Australia, I made it to like 375 miles. And when I finally tapped out, I actually had the most vivid hallucinations of my life. Like the grass were, became grass people. The trees came alive. It was my hearing became super acute. And I would like fall asleep for a second and wake up like this. And it was, there was nobody around. And, It felt like I just entered like stranger things, like the underground world. It was really weird. All the colors were slightly like accented.

And that was probably due to my lack of sleep. So the fact that I went to like, I didn't even start sleeping until the fourth night. And I didn't have any hallucinations this time, which was crazy. You didn't sleep until the fourth night. The fourth night was the first time I slept. and I was doing 55-minute laps, so I would sleep for like one or two minutes. But at that point, it was golden. Like the fourth night, I got to a place where I could, like, we found a frequency like the third night into the fourth night that I felt like I could just do forever. Was something really

special. I was running with this guy, John, who's from Wisconsin. And like, we just kind of teamed up and we also helped some other runners who were in the back. And we were just like skating by 55, 55, 55, but we were very consistent. And I would think that that's like not the best formula for for running on the road. Like you're not getting any sleep mostly. But one or two minutes, by the fourth night, that one or two minutes sleep was like golden. I was like, I will wake up. And I felt like, I mean, I still was tired, but it was like, wow, I felt like I slept for eight hours or something. My orientation was just all. Like I convinced myself that it was a long sleep. I've heard about these one minute naps that these ultra runners talking about.

I never had that experience like that before. That was like unbelievable. So then even in the fifth day, I was able to do that. Like I did a couple times where I just went and lay down for like literally a minute, just like a minute. And even my buddy Judd would time it. And like they'd come get me a minute. That's all I had really time for. So I was trying to like use all my time very precisely cooling my body.

with ice, you know, in that fifth day, eating, consuming as much calories as possible, laying down for like 60 seconds. Everything was a matter of seconds. You know, and if I miscalculated even one lap, it would be done. So it was risky. I feel like if I ever did have those significant hallucinations like I did in Australia, I feel like I could run through that maybe. I've never tried running through that type of hallucinations. Sounds very difficult. difficult. But the fact that I went for basically the whole first three days and I didn't sleep is amazing that I didn't also have much in terms of hallucinating. You know what I mean the fourth night I was definitely like start I would start to like fall asleep while I was running and I'd catch

myself. I'd fall asleep like just for I fell asleep probably several times just for like a few like a second and I'd wake up as I'm running. I'd just catch myself and trip a little. Yeah, it was, I didn't know that that was possible. That's such an incredible performance and outcome. It was wild. It was so wild. I had no idea.

450 miles, four and a half days. I mean, where do you think, where do you think this concept and style of race can go? What is, is there a limit? Like, where's, where's going to go? next. Yeah, it's, uh, Laz has made it creative. So like every other year we have like, on, uh, even or odd number of years, we have the individual world championship. And then on even number years, we have a team championship. So with the team championship, you have 15 members on your team and you actually compete on your home course in your home country.

So, uh, in, in 2024, we'll probably have like 50 different countries competing, all with 15 runners. And so there seems to be no limit to the possibilities with this race because you have so many different things occurring. You know, you have people are able to enter the race if they're going for 100 miles. In fact, what's wild this last year, more people did 100 miles in under 24 hours in the backyard format than all other 100-mileers combined across the world. There's like actually over 400 backyard altars now in 73 countries. So it's definitely going to be possible to continue to break through the barriers. And yeah, I definitely don't see this record like staying more than like at the maximum like 12 months, you know, maybe less than that. You I really think.

But but the funny thing is, is like I really, I love the most about this is that like just are sense of what is possible. And like, Laz and I have had, we had a conversation about the team element because I see, Biggs is a tougher course than many of the other race courses that happen in other countries because it has about 450 feet of climbing each trail loop and it has rocks and roots. And there are some courses in the world, there are like a golf course and it's flat. So I'm like, it's not really even for our team of 15 to be competing against another country. of 15 that's competing on a flat terrain that has no rocks or roots. And Laz is just like, well, you just got to have to be better. And so going into 2020, we had the team competition. And at that one,

I was assist to Piorter. And I really, we made it to like 312 miles. And I tapped out. And I really feel like I didn't believe it was possible to run the furthest record on. And I was the first record on that course when you had all the other runners in these easier courses. I had like mentally, like, I didn't give my full capacity, I think, in a way because I felt like it was an unfair advantage to other teams and like it was an unfair playing field. But doing the race this year and like discovering that we got the world record on a tough course, it kind of changed my thinking. You know, like, it's, it's, it is possible, uh, to go further, even on that tougher course. Like, and one of the big elements to it is, is the competition. So like, we had, uh, 22 runners that

made it to 300 miles. We had six runners that made it to 400 miles. And then Ihor was an amazing young man runner from, uh, Canada. He made it, uh, to my assist. And then I pushed to the 450. So I mean, had we not had that incredible competition, I believe it's the most runners who have ever reached like 300 and plus miles in North America, even when you take into like six-day races and that type of thing. Like there was just amazing runners there, really good competition. So that really good competition helped to fuel us to go to like these extra laps. like if I would do it individually, I wouldn't be able to do the same thing.

I don't feel like with having the runners, everyone, it's like a total equation. And the total equation is impacted as much by how many people drop out early. If those runners that drop out earlier stay in longer, it actually helps the final runner make it even further, which is an interesting mathematic equation. But if you look at these backyard ultras, that's the way it works. The further that every person makes it, the further the final person will make it. It's very interesting correlation. It is. Isn't it absolutely amazing how impactful people around us can be for our own personal success and growth?

Say, for example, you came in on one of those laps and you go over to Judd and you say, I'm feeling tired. He goes, well, Harvey, you know, you got this far. Like, I'll be proud of, I'll be really proud of you. If, you know, you go one more or just stop right now. And you hear that and you think, oh, I guess it is okay to stop. Or you have people in your life who are encouraging or accepting your decision to quit, stop, fail, give up on something. but it works in both ways

where you have people in your circle in your life who are encouraging you to keep pushing forward, keep trying, keep failing, keep working towards that win. It has such a monumental effect on us personally and professionally. And I always talk about this and I think about this,

just auditing who's in your corner, who's in your life, and how they're impacting your ability to push forward and achieve the goals that you sit out to accomplish. I was thinking about that as you're talking about Judd. And, you know, he doesn't care how tired you are. It's, well, keep running, Harvey, keep going. Yeah, 100%.

I mean, it is like night and day. Like to have, so, that's why I'm very careful about who I select for my teams when I'm for crews and my A races. But Judd is, he's just, he has that magic. He's able to to keep it positive, keep it lighthearted, joke around, and also to say the things that he knows will electrify me, you know, in terms of that. And even with a team, like I love building teams, like I ran the 24-hour USA team. and you know we we did things my first year was in 2010 and i had another uh mike uh was

is actually a ranger um who's on that that team and we he ended up winning the race but it was like the teamwork dynamic between all six men and all six women like that was the first time we actually got a medal as a team was in 2010 in the 24-hour race. And like what there were so many elements to what happened before the race as well as what transpired during the race. And there were things that didn't go right. Like there were curveballs and challenges. But like the there's so it's it's it's so important in terms of like how you build the group dynamics. Yeah.

You know, and speaking of which, like, what did you think about that main race? Did you like that backyard? What's your plan after this marathon? I'll be honest. I didn't have many plans for a lot of races in 2024, but after this conversation, I'm now itching. Yeah. Itching for a race.

Because I would love to see you as one of the 15 runners on the USA team and Laz's property come October 24. Yeah. You have to do a qualifying race. So like a real well-known one is in capital. It's like near D.C. that happens, I think like in around May, then a May. And that's just you see how far you can go in 24 hours? No, no, no. This is, this is for the backyard ultra. Okay. So you have to either win the race or like get beyond a, a certain mileage. So I don't know what that mileage is now. It might be like 240 miles or something like that to be at the at-large list. But basically to get the 15 members for the backyard team, you basically have some races which are like winning ticket races, like Ohio backyard ultra,

that's one of them. So if you win that race, but also you can be at the at-large list by qualifying with the most miles of other runners in the country. You have to be in the top 15. So we've won the gold in 2022. And there's some other really phenomenal teams like Belgium, Australia. There's a lot of competition. But it's a really cool dynamic when you're on this team because what happens differently in the even number years is I'm not running for myself as much as I'm running for our team. So, like, I'm constantly thinking about what everyone is doing. And if I see someone doing something, like, maybe, uh, I'm noticing like they're not like, like, like, bring, they're, they're, they're, they're not having some protection on. It's really hot. And I'm like,

you're, you're, you're, you're, you probably should put ice bandana or something. You're like, um, I will say that to him where versus like in a in a race this year. I'm, I may say something maybe, but probably not. I'm probably not going to want to say anything. to anyone else because they're doing their own program. I don't want to mess with them. They maybe have their own program. But in the team dynamic, we run together a lot of times. We're pushing our individual self, but we're also pushing the team. And it's a cool experience. It's quite fun. So if you're looking for something unique and different in 2024, as well as people like listening to this, I'd definitely say go for it. I mean, it's pretty cool to represent your country and race.

You know, it's a lot of fun. You know, we want to have more women in the race. We have Jennifer Russo's phenomenal. She's run over 300 miles and she's 58 years young. Oh, wow. I mean, is that just phenomenal? She has a world record for women. And it's like, but we need to, we had, you know, Maggie, we had, Courtney's been doing a lot of the trail races.

So she's, you know, maybe she'll decide. I know she loves the backyard. Maybe she'll come back and do it too. but we'd love to get more women involved, more women on the team. But I would love to have you as one of the 15 members. I mean, it's a really powerful journey you go through. And it's not just a physical buildup, but also the mental barriers you push through in that experience. And just a camaraderie amongst the team is a good camaraderie.

Yeah, I loved the last man standing concept. and the way it was so unique and different. It was definitely a little intimidating as I went in because I didn't know where the finish was. And going into that race, it definitely wasn't my A race because I knew as soon as I finished that last man, I had to go next week into prep for the sub 245 marathon. So like CIM was my A race for the year.

So leading into that, I really didn't want to crush myself. but talking about just like that whole team dynamic that is something i i really lean into and i get a lot from you know in in this past marathon i was probably at mile 13 14 maybe even before that and i could hear people chant and going more and bpn all across the race and i experienced this thing I always have these what I call unlocks in any race that I do. Like in last band standing, I had this unlock where the meaning of Goin Moore evolved for me, where it was no longer just an action, but it was actually an outcome. And I'm writing a whole book on just like this concept that Go on Moore has evolved

over the last couple years from me and its meaning and how to actually implement it and see it through. But I had this unlocked during CIM where, you know, I started that race running it myself in this personal goal. And I get to mile 12, 13, 14, I hear all these people chanting going more and BPN. And, you know, when I run, especially when I'm putting out a bigger effort, there's just these emotions that flow that I can't really control and I'll get choked up on run sometimes and my mind just go certain places. And I start thinking about all these people who showed up to support the brand and how

going more and the meaning behind it has changed and impact their life. And I thought at this mile marker, you know what? I'm not actually, I'm not running this race for me and a personal goal. I'm running this race for all the people who believe in the process and in believing going more and believe in what I'm sitting on to achieve. I'm not running this for me. I'm running this for everyone else. I have the responsibility and obligation to cross the finish line below two hours and 45 minutes because I said that I would because I have responsibility and obligation to show. people what happens when you put in the work.

And that mindset shift put me in a whole new headspace where I was able to hold, you know, 605 miles the whole way through after that. And the last three miles were the hardest miles to race, but I just got stronger and stronger and stronger because I was thinking I'm running this for a team. I'm not running this for myself anymore. So there's that responsibility you get from that that is so powerful. that can make such a huge difference. Yeah.

Yeah, it seems like hitting higher levels in terms of like that's the highest level you can hit is when you start to, you experience something like that where you're running, not just for yourself, but you're running for a greater purpose or greater cause. That's something special. It's incredible. That's really neat. Well, Harvey, I really appreciate. you sharing your stories and everything you're doing, the running community, the energy,

you know, there's this quote that I came across a few weeks ago and I've been obsessed with it since I came across it. And it's that role enthusiasm is contagious. And you have this role enthusiasm around what you're doing. I can feel it and I can see it from the classroom to running to your travel and the experience, the impact you're having on people in the world. And it's contagious. I mean, I've caught the role enthusiasm for me right now, and I'm itching now for an ultra, so I'm going to go home and convince my wife and I'm running an ultra in 2024. I love it. I love it. But I really appreciate you making the trip here, coming on the podcast, and again, huge congratulations for setting a world record of an amazing effort. Thank you so much. It's been an

absolute pleasure. Now, I feel like we should go running. Seriously. I know. Let's go. Well, Harvey, man. I appreciate you. And cheers. Thanks so much. It's been a blast. Absolutely. Thanks, man. I really appreciate it.