The Nick Bare Podcast - 052: The Power of Effective Communication with Pete Hixson

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Welcome to today's podcast episode, where we're diving into the world of communication. Our guest, Pete Hixson, is an expert at helping businesses clarify their message through StoryBrand. Communication is often considered a passive skill, but it's our greatest skill. Whether navigating tense conversations or aiming to balance kindness and clarity, this episode will give you the confidence to own your communication skills. Enjoy! Save 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio Follow for more:  IG: https://www.instagram.com/nickbarefitness/ YT: https://www.youtube.com/@nickbarefitness Keep up with Pete here:IG: https://www.instagram.com/pete_hixson Website: https://beyondcommunities.org/ Speaking & Coaching: http://www.petespeaks.org/ Topics: 0:00 Intro 1:01 Welcome 3:15 What StoryBrand is 7:14 Good communication isn’t a passive skill 12:33 What ineffective communication looks like 15:28 The guide vs the hero 19:48 Passion driven communicators 28:24 Getting to the bottom line 34:12 Balancing kind and clear 41:33 Communicating through tense conversations 56:57 Generosity with no expectations 1:02:18 Awareness of faith 1:08:49 Disappointment of failed expectations 1:13:09 Sharpen the ax 1:17:04 Never not on mission

In today's episode of the podcast, I sit down with my good friend Pete Hickson. Now, Pete was a pastor for over 20 years, is an organizational speaker, leader, and coach. And I met Pete when we started working with Storybrand to clarify our message and our mission through BPN. And we started working with Story Brand a few years ago, Pete ended up being our facilitator to help us clarify. are messaging. And this episode is all about the power of effective communication.

I think that effective communication is the greatest skill that you can learn and utilize. I'm going to leave you with three things that I want you to take away from this podcast. It is that words give clarity, clarity gives direction, and direction gives purpose. Today on the podcast, we have Pete Hickson. Pete, what's up, man. I'm here. Thanks for having me. This is great.

Absolutely. Loving the new place here. We, you know, we met a few years ago when you were the facilitator for the story brand workshop we did for BPN down in Texas. Yep. And I meet a lot of people. But there was something about like when we met you, the whole team met you, there was this connection that it's very hard to put our finger on. And say, like, why should Pete, why do we, why do we need to invite Pete back out? And like, why do we feel the need, like, Pete needs to be a part of VPN? Pete needs to stay in our life moving forward. So we invited you then at the time we were preparing, editing the Leadville 100 documentary the team was working on. And I think this was maybe a month before or a month after you came and did the story brand workshop with our team, which we'll get into. and then you and your wife Holly came out to the Leadville 100 documentary in Austin a few weeks ago.

You and Holly came over, had dinner with Stefan I and baby Charlie. And here we are back in Nashville podcasting. So you're just one of those people that came into our life and we're like, we want Pete. And then we met Holly and we're like, we need Holly. She's way better. She's usually the one that people want to be around. Yeah, it's just good people. So I appreciate you.

Thank you. Thank you. And I really don't say this about every company I've worked with or clients or whatever, you know. But you could ask Holly and she would tell you honestly, there was something there from me too. And when I said, hey, we're going to go back to Austin and go to this thing that this company I just did work for, you know, is putting on, which is the documentary. Yeah. And so she will tell you, it's been the same connection here. I feel the same way.

I don't know what all that means or needs to be meant right now, but we're on the journey together. Glad to be here with you, BPN, whatever else is ahead. I want to talk about story brand a little bit. Just to give some context, because we brought it up. So our team has always been a big fan of Donald Miller's work. Business Made Simple, the book, the story brand, framework. and Jordan, my creative director, was a huge fan of all of, and is,

a huge fan of Donald Miller's work. So as we're implementing some of the things we're learning through the framework and the book Business Made Simple, we started exploring story brand itself and found out that there was this workshop that businesses could do to clarify their message, their story.

And at the time, I think this was 2021, BPN was at this point in its growth where we were adding employees onto the team. We were expanding. We are growing. And what we've discovered is through that growth, sometimes your clarity, your message, your marketing, your communication can become diluted a little bit. So we reached down to StoryBrand. You were the facilitator that came into Austin and help us clarify our message, our mission.

I'd love for you to explain like what story brand is to talk about that chapter your life before we unpack the 20 plus years before that. Yeah. And talk about how you got to where you are. But I'd love for you explain story brand, what you do, did there, and the impact it makes for businesses. Yeah. So, I mean, essentially businesses and really any individual doing something that they care about, they are very close to that. whether it's a product, whether it's a service, whether it's, you know, some initiative, whatever your thing is. And the closer we are to it, the more we unintentionally forget how much

we know about it. You know, you're the person that created that or you came up with the idea. And you're constantly working in that thing. But what is difficult is when you go to communicate that to people on the other side of you, you communicate it from your. You communicate it from your, thinking from your experience, not from theirs. And so you're just so close to what you do that it is difficult, and we like to say it this way, to communicate it in a way that makes sense to your customers. And the more you do, the more you grow, the more you take on, you're just working and working and working and you're great at what you do. We all love our art, our craft, our service, our product, whatever the thing is, we're passionate about. But the average human, whether

it's a B to B to C, some human is making a decision to either buy your products or hire you for something. And they're not thinking about the things we're thinking about all the time. So story brand is a seven-part framework based on the lens of story that really comes from how movies are written, books are made. You know, I mean, it's a screenwriting process that the founder, Donald Miller, as you brought up. He is an author by trade and has done some screenwriting and said, man, this concept could help businesses really make it more simple and clear. And so that is a framework where we teach companies how to simplify and clarify your message and then put it in your marketing collateral so that your customers can understand what it is you do, the problem you solve,

how it makes their life better, and what you want them to do about it. So that's story. That's story brand. Building a story brand is a book that Don wrote several years ago, and then it turned into a framework in workshops and a company. And then you mentioned business made simple. That's now the umbrella company that story brand lives underneath as the marketing agency and a host of other things. Yeah, what I appreciate about that whole concept is just how effective the messaging and communication is. And it actually makes it feel and seem simpler than it. It is because communication is complex. Yes.

You know, and I've had to learn that through leadership and building a team. I mean, I experienced that early on in the military as a platoon leader, how just important, effective communication can be. And then building a business, building a team, the more employees we hire, the more departments we developed, effective communication became more challenging. and more challenging. And I always thought it was this skill that was just embedded into us and that you could passively work on. But it's actually this active voice

that requires work. Right. I think about it in terms of being married. Yeah. And everyone says, like, what's the key to marriage? Communication. And I used to laugh at that and be like,

yeah, it's just talking. Yeah. No, like talking and communication are so different. Yeah. because I'll be out of my morning runs and, you know, I'm running for 60, 75 minutes and there's all these thoughts in my head.

And I'll come back from my run high on life. Steph's waking up and meeting me in the kitchen with baby Charlie. And I want to get everything out of my head as fast as possible. And I realize as I'm saying these things that I spent in the last 60 to 75 minutes dissecting and digesting, I'm trying to get this out in like 30 seconds. And I skip all these important pieces where it's just jumble. And like what that experience every morning teaches me,

which I never learned from, but it teaches me and reinforces every day, is that this is how we communicate in the world. And this is why we become angry and resentful. When we don't get what we want or people aren't doing what we need is because we're not effectively communicating. Yeah. How important is that?

to yield your life, your family, everyone. It's important to everything, you know, and that's one of the things to go back to Storybrand. I mean, I wish I would have known and adopted the framework a long time ago, you know, and I know we'll go into some of this, but I was a pastor for 20-some years. So you're getting up and presenting in front of people. And you're leading meetings, you're running a staff. And then on a personal level, you know, this is where I'm kind of boiling it down to this and I'm actually doing a talk this weekend at a conference for a bunch of chiropractor businesses. So you're talking to doctors, they're business owners as well. And when you are in, and honestly, it doesn't matter what industry it is, but when you're

passionate about what you do, and that could be about life or could be like, hey, honey, I got some plans for our, you know, something personal, you know, or we're going to do this renovation in the house or we're going to do it doesn't matter what you're talking about from big changes and and all down to little things we forget and this is the principle i'm trying to continually learn and teach is we need the other side of me mentality and we are unintentionally just thinking about what we're thinking about yeah because that's what we're thinking you know what are the thoughts you're telling yourself about yourself all day long what are the thoughts you know you're and passion communicators passion leaders passion

driven people are coming into a situation. We'll use you coming in after a run. You're like, guess what? Or I've got this. And it's just this passion. Let's just say you take that passion up on a stage or you take that passion into a boardroom or into a staff meeting. And if you just leave it at that, people might walk away and go, man, I like that person. Or man, that felt good. Or I'm inspired by it. But they might not understand what does this have to do with me. What do you want me to do with it. And so you have to break that down. Otherwise, it is just, you called it jumbo or whatever. Like it's a bunch of heat or it's a bunch. And honestly, even in, these are the harder ones when you're in a disagreeing situation. And what do you need to do? You got to walk

out of the room for a second. You got to let the dust settle. Well, it's the same thing in positive communication. You have to let the pieces fall out. And then you have to restructure them in a way that makes sense to the people on the other side of me. And oftentimes we don't take the time and intentionality and do that. We kind of live by the, they'll catch it and they'll understand and they know what I mean. You know, like a new staff member that comes in to a team and you expect them to know everything. Maybe they've been watching, maybe they've been following me. But at the end of the day, until you really lay it out, it's difficult, you know. So it matters. I say, I like to say it this way. communication literally runs the world. I mean, it moves the world. It is communication that moves

people to do this, this, or this in this direction. Everything comes down to it. So, very important. What's the opposite of effective communication? What does that look like? Because we know it, we know what effective communication looks like. I think a lot of people want to think that they are effective communicators. But if we're actually on with ourselves, we're probably not the best communicators in a lot of parts of our life. So what does ineffective communication feel and look like? Yeah, I think it is the opposite, which is I am only talking, you just said talking. I'm only talking about the things I am thinking about.

I'm not organizing those thoughts into a pattern and into a display of words that will make sense to you. So I'm really only thinking about me. and I think that's the opposite of a good communicator. Someone just asked me this morning, I was in a meeting about something. They said, what is the difference, or is there a difference between a storyteller and a communicator? And I've never thought about that. It was a good question.

It was a good question. Yeah. And I just thought, well, I don't think every good storyteller is necessarily a good communicator. And what I mean by that is when I just want to sit around the fire pit with some friends and I've got some friends I'm thinking about right now to tell some great stories. But I just, we're just there to be entertained and, you know, just hang out together.

Let them rip. Yeah, just go. And you're there to laugh. It's very insider focused or very, you know, you're just there for people. I love stories. Or let's just say we have a, you know, a grandfather memory or somebody telling us a great story.

But I don't think you have very effective communicators who aren't good storytellers, but I think you can be a storyteller and not be a great communicator, if that makes sense. Because a storyteller, like on a personal level, like I was saying, is not necessarily trying to put pieces together to get you to move in a direction. But an effective communicator always has to involve the process of story and to make it engaging and inviting for me or for you, the person on the other side of us. You know, the foundational principle for story brand, and I love this for all of life, is that

you are not the hero in the story. You're the guide. The person on the other side of you is the hero. And that is a foundational principle for life that everybody needs. And that's what I mean by my version of saying that is the same thing, which is just saying, you've got to have an other side of me mentality before you walk into a conversation. So what is this going to feel like? What is this going to sound like and what is this going to be communicating to the other person? Otherwise, it's not communicating. It's just talking. Yeah. So, yeah. I was talking over you. I apologize. No. If you can say that again, it's the guide versus the hero. Yeah. Can you explain that? Yeah, the foundational principle story brand. So story brand again, to come back to this, it is a seven-part

framework of messaging that helps you organize your company's message to, of the world about what it is you deliver, what your products and services are and how they can engage and buy and da-da-da. And every story has seven parts. There's a hero in the story. That's the character. That's the main person. And then the second part is really the anchor of the story, which is the problem. You're not going to keep watching a movie if there's no problem to be solved. You know, no show. So you have a hero and then a problem that has to be in the story that needs to be overcome and you're going to watch until the end to see if they overcome it. Three, you've got a guide in the story. Someone always comes along and helps the hero win the day or a series of people

come along and help the hero win the day. Then that guide offers a plan, calls them to action, says you got to do this. And then there's stakes in the story. Those are the final two parts. If you do what I'm telling you to do, you'll succeed. And if you don't, you fail. Those are the seven parts. Hero, problem, guide, plan, call to action, success. Or or failure. Every movie, every story, every book. That's why we say, like, it is teaching people that when you just said, you look at it and go, oh my God, why didn't I think about that? It's human behavior. And you go, that is how I think. That is how I learn. That is how I receive. And now I just need to display that, organize my thoughts, and put it out there for you. In business, and I would also say in

life, even more importantly, the foundational principle is when you are communicating, you are not the hero. Who you're communicating to is the hero. You're the guide. Everybody's looking for a guide to come along and help them win the day. And so you have to think like that, prepare like that. And as silly, and it might even sound a little too complicated, but if we carry around, again, what I like to call the other side of me mentality, if I'm doing my best and I'm human and error probably more than I, it would be willing to admit. But if I'm doing my best in that, even in the smallest of conversations with my wife or one of my girls, or in business, get on a phone call, whatever, always try to go into it thinking about the person on the other

side of you and making them the hero. So what I'm about to tell you, what I'm about to sell you on, what I think could help you, is this about me or is it about you? Make the story about them. It's a better way of life, too. I mean, it just is, you know. And it takes an unnecessary pressure off of yourself to be the hero for everybody in the world. I just don't think that is our job. I think we are here to assist people to win the day. I'm in a season of life right now where I'm really facing that with and I know we'll get to some of this but both of my girls are young adults one will be 23 this year one will be 20 next week and I am just while there's challenges to this season for sure and it's they're both in college and it's the most expensive season I've ever been in

but I am loving I literally talked to my youngest last night on the phone I was I was I'm listening to this book, reading it, I'm actually reading it and listening to it on Audible. But I was thinking about her and her studies in business and the things she wants to do. And I couldn't wait to tell her and help her in this by just going, oh, you should do this. And I am so excited to help them win the day. Like, it's just a better position to be versus like taking the weight on our shoulders and go, you know, I've got to be your hero for the rest of life. Like, I don't think that's what they want. You know. Age. has a lot of appropriate steps to that. They need us in different ways, the younger they are.

But as they grow, man, I'm just loving seeing my role is to just be fuel for them. I love that. Yeah. Well, that's the main reason we've reached out to Story Brand in the first place. Because I remember vividly the day where someone came to BP and HQ to visit. They knock on the door and one of our staff went and opened the door. And one person knew who BPN was. Their friend didn't. And their friend asked, you know, who are you guys? What's BPN?

What do you do? And instead of this very clear mission-driven message, the response was, oh, you know, we have this YouTube channel and Nick founded the company when he was in the Army and we sell supplements, but we just got back from Leadville doing a 100-mile race

in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado. we have this big community and Gilin more is our tagline and all this stuff. And I'm listening to this thinking, yeah, we do all of that. But the person on the other side that's receiving that message right now has no clarification and what we actually do and who we are. So we've overcomplicated by trying to overshare. And I was on your website and I pulled these three lines that I think are so powerful. I've used it many times in the business since.

Words give clarity. Clarity gives direction, direction gives purpose. Clarity, direction, and purpose. That's it. Yeah. Those three things, I mean, if you are ever overwhelmed in life, family, business, your job, like clarity, direction, purpose. You focus on those three things, it makes the biggest problem seem pretty simple. Yeah.

And the starting point is clarity. And that's the step that could seem to be the. easiest or I would just say it's the one that's overlooked the most, but it is the most essential. I've got a couple thoughts in my head right now. One, I'm thinking about this lady that used to work on a staff of a church I was pastoring. And she came in one time. And I was the one that drove her to this point because I'm passionate leader talking out of it. Let's do the, you know, and you walk away and if you own again like I feel like I know the opposite of what I want to be only because I've been that and I can still be that it's not like hey I'm there now you know by any means but

before we dive into that sorry you mentioned passionate speaking and communication I think that's actually yes it's a strength of mine but it's a weakness too yeah because when you mentioned that earlier I was like oh my gosh I speak with passion a lot of times yeah and I don't know if when I'm doing that I'm actually communicating effectively yeah so I actually in this talk I'm doing this weekend, I am talking to a group of, so this is a subset of chiropractors, but it's more than just chiropractic. They have a way of health and diet. You would so appreciate it. How you take care of yourself, all of these things. And they are so passionate about it because it's undeniable in the proof that if you do what we're telling you to do,

this can happen, right? And, you know, But the challenge with passion-driven leaders, and I was a pastor for 20-some years, I still do work in ministry, still speak in churches. Like that message, if you really believe it, is a life-changing message. Well, you better be passionate about it. So this isn't about not being passionate. But the problem that we face as passionate, and I'll just say communicators, when you're a passion communicator, and I also am one, I mean, I get passionate about food that I ate. You know, we were just talking about a little bit.

Let's go. I mean, down to every little detail, you know, like, oh, I had this drink or this food. You know, just let's, and you want everybody. I just want to watch somebody eat something that I enjoy. Yes. And I'm probably going to, you know, drive them crazy because they're never going to also live up to my expectation of what I'm excited about. You know, one of the things I know we're kind of going all over here. But one of the things that I was in a conference.

with someone recently about being passion driven humans and leaders and communicators is I am always living on the edge of disappointment. Always because I have such high expectations. I feel that. It's just like and what I didn't realize for the longest time and I still struggle with it, especially now that I see it in my young adult girls. And that's highlighting something my wife's been trying to tell me all along is that if she doesn't react the way that I I'm planning on in my head her reacting like to something that you know I did this for you or we're going to go do this or you know I I do it to the mildest of my friends or companions you know and I'm just like oh they didn't really like it as much as I thought they would so that's what I mean from that

to big things in life I'm on the edge of disappointment but I think that's what gives you an edge right because you're always living with something great for someone else in mind But back to passion-driven communicators, the problem is we try to say everything about everything we know all the time. I mean, it's kind of like, let me just get it out. And that's where we just have to be more thought, thoughtful, organized. And I don't mean in the casual conversations about, you know, it just ate lunch here. We just went and did this and I had this coffee, you know. I just mean especially in if I'm going to get up and give a pitch for something or if I'm going to put some marketing material out there and I don't get to have a con. You know, we used to live in a world where you good old boy people into doing business with you. And it just doesn't work that way primarily any longer. People are making decisions about you before you ever get to meet them. And so they don't get to feel that in the room.

They're looking at words and are they making sense? and I also think it's the same thing down to our personal relationships. But this lady that I'm thinking about that I'm actually surprised. I was about to bring you back to that. I'm like he definitely forgot about the lady. I took a trail and we're coming back.

Yeah. So. But I was the one probably through a passion of, let's do this, you know, likely that she was a, she kind of handled finances and was a personal assistant and then she had this this other area of our ministry that she was she was full-time employee and and she was a little intimidated to come and tell me like I'm struggling with all these things and I don't even know where to start and and that was a good wake-up call for me number one of like okay I have to help you you can't just expect people that's

what I mean by you're living on the edge of disappointment like well what didn't you get this done you And I'll never forget it. We had, I don't know why we had Dixie Cups in the office, but we had the little, you know, paper Dixie Cups. And I just put all these cups out. And I'm like, all right, so here's the deal. These are all the tasks and all the things. We just had to have a priorities conversation. And the only thing that I, that I'm really thinking about was, I just need to hear from you when you have all of these things you've been asked to do, but you can't accomplish it all at once. just let me know, then I'll help you arrange these Dixie Cups or these tasks in order of priority. But had we not had that seemingly silly, I mean, it felt like two adults just sitting there putting a puzzle together, but it was a visual that helped me and I think it helped her. And it was like, you know, it helped our relationship. It was like, okay, this is how we're going to go from here. Because I'm probably going to keep passionately saying, let's do this, let's do that, let's do all these things.

But my point is you've got to break it down and work your way because I don't think we're going to wake up tomorrow by reading a book and be effective communicators. We have to work our way there. We have to just stop and think about people on the other side of us. And we could get into more of this too, but there's some decent, super simple two or three questions surveys that you can give your spouse if you're daring enough to get their real answers. Amen. But and then people close to you, you know, like ask them a question. And it's all about how does it feel to be, what does it feel like to be on the other side of me? And yeah, I'll stop there for now. So I'm thinking about effective communication, having these conversations with people, trying not to be too passionate where you're losing focus on what message you're trying to get across. But I'm also curious. Of your opinion on, I probably know your opinion, but just your thoughts and unpacking your thoughts on how important being candid and applying candor to affect that communication is because, I mean, I literally just got on in a conversation earlier today.

And we're trying to make some really hard decisions right now in the business. And I know the answer deep down inside. And as my team is around me, they're asking me, like, what, what, what, you? Should we do, what do you want to do? And I know the answer in my heart and in my gut. However, I know how to affect the people at the table. Yeah. So getting those words actually out of my body and say that sometimes feels like climbing Mount Everest.

Yeah. So actually, but you finally get it out, sometimes the reaction isn't as bad as you thought it would be. but it feels so much better and you guys can work together to get these solutions. And I think that's one of the hardest parts with a lot of people. I struggle with it.

It's just applying candor to a lot of communications to actually be effective. Yeah. Yeah, and I will say this too. I think you said something very important about to back up to passion and the work our way back to that question.

I don't think it's about being any less passionate. It's about appropriating that. It's sort of like having a governor on it and how it's for whatever reason the visual in my head is like blowing up a balloon. You want to go at the right pace. You got the hot air. You get it, but you don't want it to pop. You know, so it's not about, I don't think any less passion. I mean, we should be the believers about whatever it is that we are. If we are selling something and we don't believe in it, then we are a fraud, right? So be passionate. But we have to fight, and this is where I'll come to that question. It's the candor piece, I think all comes down to clarity. And the way we all talk and, you know, hold ourselves and our,

or whatever, I think that is important. You've got to feel the room. You got to understand. But to your point, there have been plenty of times that for years and years, I didn't want to get to the bottom line. And I'm just running laps and laps and all I'm doing is confusing people more and frustrating people. And then at some point, they are going to understand, oh, I see where this is going. But I was unwilling to take the courage and just say it. Is it because you were trying to protect them? I was trying to be nice, man. I mean, I don't, I don't, my one of my greatest weaknesses, and we can,

sit here and talk about plenty of them. One of them is that people pleasing aspect. Now, that has a great strength, right? Because I do care and want to, you know, be the pastor Pete and be the guy, you know, and I give the air quotes. But like, it really is real. I mean, it's something that I believe didn't necessarily come from me. I mean, I feel like I've been given a calling in that. But the real struggle, well, the real issue with people pleasing is that I'm very selfish. And the problem with that is I don't want anybody to not like me. Well, that is a real issue. I don't mean I want to be unliked. But if I'm so afraid, like, then who do I think I am that I think the whole world should like me? You know what I mean? So some of that had to unravel over years of just realizing,

of me asking, why do I want to please everybody? Now, I do think there is a way to communicate, and I heard this many times. I don't know where it originated or if there is one, but you are clear and you're kind. You're kind and you're clear. If you're kind, but you're not clear, then that is, you know, what I'm talking about. You're just running laps around it all. sometimes if you're clear you could care less about how this feels on the other side of you, that's not other side of me mentality. So it's both. But I mean, I have sat under, I don't know what it is, whether it's a commercial and sometimes I get it, that's, you know, marketing purposes or whatever or plenty of sermons or messages or even books

or movies or show that in my opinion, I'm just like, where are you going with this? You know, just get to the bottom line. And I think we have to get to the bottom line. If I had to put a timetable on it, get there soon. You know, don't just say now by the end of the conversation, you're going to understand why we're here right now. No, get to it, unpack it. But it is hard because I think that the real differentiator is how close do I know this person? And what are going to be the potential?

What's the fallout after I say, what? I'm about to say that I know is probably not going to feel good, you know. A lot of that just comes too with, you know, this already, you know, raising kids. It's like I sometimes, for their sake and for mine, I don't have time to just sit and run laps around there. I need you to know something because it could be potentially dangerous if you don't do or, you know, not do something. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking about it right now in terms of how fast. Or how quick should that conversation be in terms of being effective, yes, but also efficient.

You ever talk to someone where you end up in this conversation? And you're feeling where the conversation is going. And they skim right by the point, but they don't hit it. And you go in another circle. I'm thinking in my head right now, like the visual representation is you go to the airport to drop someone off. But you keep missing the exit. it in to get to the terminal. So you're exiting the airport, you're coming back in, you're

going back in. I've done this before, especially here at Nashville Airport. I'm like, how the heck do I get in there? But you're having a conversation with someone, and you see where they're heading, and they just skim it, and they go a full circle again. They're afraid to deliver that line. So I guess the question is

how you decide what's effective and efficient, how much context do you provide, how fast you get to the point? Yeah. because I love the way you described kind versus clear. I think a lot of people see it as either on or off switch. So, okay, I'm going to be clear right here.

And a lot of people think clear is just blunt. And like zero empathy. I'm going to deliver this. Either take it or leave it and I'm walking away. Well, then the opposite side of that is it's not a dimmer switch. It's an actual light switch. Now I'm going to be kind. And I'm not going to actually provide you.

any sort of solution. Right. But I'm going to tell you what you want to hear. Yeah. But you're going to be so confused at the end of it. So how do we create this dimmer switch effect where we're balancing kind and clear? Yeah. Great question.

I love the analogy, too, about the switch and the airport. Those are super good visuals. I'm not sure that I would have to honestly take some time and put out some thought words. And I do want to come back to the words giving clarity. and clarity giving direction and direction giving purpose. But this takes, you know, let's just say EQ. This takes, I'm aware of my surroundings. You know, my dad has always been in construction.

You hopefully always have the tools you need to build. I also did some bunch of lawn care work when I was in college for a couple of different companies, just, you know, jobs. And when you are in some of those manuals, labor and you got some tools. One of the things a guy I'll never forget is he just said, and my dad, too, would just say, if you don't have, you know, always be aware of your surroundings. He always taught me that when I was learning how to drive too. He's like, it's one thing. You can follow it by the book, but if you're not aware of your surroundings, you can turn the blinker on, do everything right, but you didn't see the person because you should always be,

you know, so I would carry that into this conversation and just be a real thought. person about your surroundings. That's the dimmer switch. That's that, you know, feel the room a little bit. And I was in a conversation, a meeting that had a decent amount of, and I'm being kind about this. I'm also trying to not divulge things for people. But in this conversation, there was a strong amount of tension at the table. And there was some disagreement there. I was inviting some people into a conversation, knowing that there was some of that there, and I was trying to prepare them for it appropriately. What I didn't know is that there was even, you know, a decent amount of more tension at the table than I was prepared for.

But because you're aware and you're listening and you, you know, have a care for other people, the other side of you mentality, you're at least doing your best to walk into a room so that no one is 100% blindsided when you can control it. Right. And I think that's part of that dimmer switch is just be aware, have that other side of you mentality. But and it really depends on who you're talking to. You know, it really does. I mean, you know, the effectiveness and efficiency, you know, if I'm in a conversation with people very, very, very, very close to me who are going to be close to me on the other side of this conversation,

no matter what, like if family's going to be family, I'm going to lean a little more into some effectiveness than efficient because sometimes efficiency is not the best way to, you know, get it done, you know. And then the other side is like if I'm not going to, you know, this isn't a lifetime friendship and I'm not saying don't care, but I might lean into a little more efficiency like, hey, I just need to let you know this. Boom. there goes, you know, and that's probably a bad example. But that's where I would lean. You've got to have some, just some emotional awareness of your relationships. And that's where I just don't think it's always this way or that way, you know, every single time. It's just not that you, you know,

being able to adjust and pivot in life and it all comes from which way do I go. Well, that's, you're walking into it, knowing your surroundings. You've got to know your surroundings. Yeah, I love that answer. Self-awareness. Yeah. Yeah. If you lack self-awareness. It's hard to survive. Oh, man. Anything that isn't black or white. Anything that's subjective, you really can't adapt to. Right. It's nearly impossible. And you'll never be able to do it perfectly. And guess what? I mean, when you do your best and it still fails and it didn't get across, I think the second thing I would just say real quick is be prepared to not defend everything that you just did if it didn't go well.

and take a humble position and step back and say, man, I thought I prepared this well. I thought that, you know, whatever. Obviously, it didn't. And then do some question asking, you know, what was it that I said that didn't, you know, or tell me about how you feel about this situation and let people talk. That's where I would drive to the words give clarity, clarity. And we have so much, this is the other piece of passionate leaders and communicators. So we have so much up here. This is part of my job, job, and coaching is just try to literally

dissect, distill, and extract things that are in your head all day long and in your heart, and get it out because now that I have words out there, and by the way, if it's negativity and there's just all these thoughts that are swirling and feelings that I have, it's like lassoing a cloud. Like, good luck with that. But now if I get it out and go, that's what I'm struggling with right there. It has less power over you internally. And so that there's so much about getting words out. So now you are clear. Now at least I know what I'm dealing with. And now I know what I'm dealing with, I can arrange those things and set a direction. And when we wake up knowing I have a direction in life, we have purpose. That's, that's the progression to that.

There's this book that's on my reading list. And I can't remember who who wrote it. but it's called non-violent communication. And just based off the title, I'm interested in reading it. Yeah, me too. And as a coach, as a speaker, as a communicator, this just pops in my head. I'm curious, kind of advice that we can give for people when they get into situations or conversations that are fueled by both parties in passion, and it leads to a disagreement. and trying to have a conversation with someone who is in a defensive position.

Because for me, when I'm having a conversation with someone who is in a defensive position, I literally just want to say, we're going to stop right here. I'm going to walk away before you say something that you're going to regret. Because I've been in those situations many times before. I think I've gotten pretty good through experience and repetition of realizing when we're in a like that and I disarm because I know where that's leading to. Yeah. And we're both going to say things that we regret and we wish we didn't. Yeah. So what do you do? Like, what do you personally do when you get in a conversation with someone that's a disagreement that is coming from a defensive

position and you're not seeing any win from either side? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. I, in those situations, a couple of thoughts come to mind. One, I will try, and I think this should be the goal of everyone in a conversation, even in a non-heated situation, right, even if there's not that tension. If we're trying to make a decision and I'm trying to talk you into something and you're coming from your angle, right? And then we're going back and forth, even if it's just very amicable and we're all trying to solve a problem together and it's exciting. At some point, you have to move your thoughts

and the things that you're saying, and same for here. Maybe there's another and another over here. And you need to take it off of a human and put it into something on the table. So you're both looking at the same thing versus without meaning to we get into these situations and it's all about just winning the argument. And it's my way versus you. your way and it's like nobody even knows what the way is we're talking about anymore so you got to take time and put words to this is the thing we're talking about we're not talking about me and my version we're not talking about you and your version we've actually created something that we're both looking at if you're not both looking at the same thing that's the starting point problem

you can't think it personal then no you have to get it off of you and put it out here and then the next thing I'll say in what a goal can be, and this is something that I've recently actually done a little bit of writing. I'm working on a book project for this year, and I'm just fascinated by how often people don't believe something until they see it. And you take that and go, okay, okay, so what's my job if I'm trying to, you know, for our nonprofit, for the special needs community, we've talked about this. You know, my job is to, and here's the phrase, turn the light on so that you can see something. And then it's an invitation. I'm not forcing you to be a part of this thing. But oftentimes in a heated argument or in just, man, I believe in

this and I want you, or just I'm selling a product. My job is I need to turn the light on as best as I can so that you can see what I'm really trying to deliver. And our eyes are the most powerful tool that we have that we probably don't realize it. When people see something, it is, you know, I mean, give any phrase you want, like the light switch goes on. Aha moment. You know, it's like, I see it. And so in a conversation where there's tension and disagreement, the best you can at least try to turn the light on to your side. Now, then again, be willing to let them turn the light on to their side if there's two things you're talking about.

But that is the phrase that comes to my mind. It's like, man, my job is to just, you know, I was giving a many little coaching conversation to a guy who's going into a heated situation with someone that he's in a business partnership with. And someone didn't react well. And I said to him, I said, you probably shouldn't have to do this because it's sort of their position. But take the humble approach, disarming approach and just say, hey, I know what you said and I'm cool with it. I shouldn't say cool with it, but I'm not going to hold you against it. But let's start over here. And then I said, your job is to help them see the real situation that's at hand.

But when feelings are involved, we don't really give time again to see what it is. Are we talking about? What are we arguing over? What is the issue? You know, how many arguments are we had with our wives? You know, it's like, what are we fighting about anymore? And so, yeah, help them see the light. help just your job is to turn the light on as best as you can. Does that make sense?

It makes sense. Yeah, I was at dinner a few weeks ago. And we stopped, me and this, this friend started talking about different opinions on this one thing. And it was stupid. It was a stupid thing. And there were probably 10 of us at the dinner table. And I said something that I like, another friend kind of pushed back against it. And it started as this fun banter back and forth. But then it very quickly turned into being personally attacked based off of our opinions. And I knew exactly where it was going. So I tried to disarm and try to like, hey, let's just end it here.

But the other party, the other person started prying and pushing and pushing. And then I started feeling disrespected. And that's when my passion came out. So here we are having this full-blown, I don't know, I don't say, it was an argument. And we both were acting like we were joking, but we were both serious. And I could see the look on everyone else at the table, realizing this is turning right now. And it kind of just fizzled out. But it's so easy for our emotions to get the best of us.

And oftentimes I can feel now when this is coming, and I forward think and backwards plan, okay, Nick, don't put yourself in a position or you're going to say something that you regret or don't want to based off of this passion taking over the way you actually feel. Because it was over something stupid.

And in the reality, if we would have put this thing that we were talking about in the middle of the table between us and talked about it, like it wasn't on each other, we would have laughed and walked away. from it. But it's so funny. Yeah. But we keep it to ourselves because this is a part of me. Yes. Yeah. It's a personal. It's a personal. It is. You know, I don't know that there's a personal or a, a perfect way of

avoiding that. I mean, we're going to get, especially when it's people we care about, you know, I mean, we fight for things sometimes because we care about them. That's not a bad thing, you know. And we fight with people because we care about those people, you know. I mean, it's, I mean, it's worth the fight to degree at times. But then there are those times when, you know, I'm thinking about a proverb that says a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs it up. And it's like, okay, yeah. So, or a kind word if you don't want to say gentle. But like it's like in that situation, and I had a counselor of mine years ago, and he told me a story. He was just, he was literally so elderly. I was, I was his last literal project, if you will, and he passed away a few years into

our counseling together. He was just a legend among people who just helped people process things in life anyway. But the way that he told me this story, and he would talk slower, and he was very old and he had this little laugh and he goes, I remember this day that I was pulling into whatever, Walmart and trying to get a parking space. And as I was pulling in, this guy, you know, I didn't know that that's where he wanted to park. And he came, cussed me out and did this whole thing. And he said, I got out. And in that moment, he just said, I'm sorry that my decision has caused you so much pain today. And he said, and I just walked on. Now, that could also stir somebody up.

But his way and his point to me was there sometimes it's just not worth the fight. And you know this. This is just the age old, take the high road, you know. Which typically feels pretty good. It does. Because at the end of the day, you're on, I don't, like this could probably sound so whatever. But the high road, you're now looking down and going, I'm not stooping down to your level. Right.

That's where I view it. It's just the way you got it. You know, the way sometimes to win is to let somebody else win that moment that actually doesn't matter. And you just smile at them, you know, walk away. But I think that's one of the best ways that I can handle it is just, you know, this just isn't worth it to me. I'm not getting down to this level. Yeah, there was this person who is a friend of mine. And talking negatively about me on social media and I saw it.

And I'm like, what is going on right now? And so I texted him. I was like, hey man, it was Christmas. Merry Christmas. Hope you and the family are doing really well. Just thinking about you guys. And it just felt really good. I was like, high road.

Yeah. High road. Yep. Message, I'm sure, was received, by the way. For sure. Yeah. For sure. Hey, I saw what you said about me, but not going to let it get to me.

Love you, brother. Keep doing your thing. So I do want to transition a little bit into Pastor Pete. Yeah. But I had this question, and it was sparked by something you previously said. You said that people often don't believe things until they see it. Yeah. We're talking about effective communication, talking about, disagreements and helping people see the other side.

I'm really curious with your 20 plus years of pastoring, were you ever in a situation where someone approached you? I'm not a believer because I haven't seen. Try to prove me otherwise. Yep. Oh, yeah. And how do you approach that? Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about a couple right now.

And when they came, I was pastoring a church in the greater Atlanta area, when they came to our church, I didn't know them for a while. They had been casually attending for a while, and I didn't know their story. When they first came in, what I didn't know until later was their son had passed away. It's just a tragedy of health. They didn't go in the direction, that they wanted it to go. Just a tough story. So I find out, and to his credit,

the dad and I became friends. He takes me to lunch. And he basically, that's why I'm thinking about them, looks me across the table and just says, hey, I appreciate what you do and I get it and I'm there because my wife wants to be there and this whole thing. but basically like I just don't believe it and I'm not, you know, and I'm not going to pretend that I believe it, but I'm happy to just still be on the journey. Well, sometimes I think people need to know,

well, let's keep, let's keep walking down the path. And I think there's a deep, a really tough question you have to ask yourself, what if that person never, and we'll just use this word, converts. What if that person, what if you saw the, what if you flipped to the end of the book and saw that it didn't happen? Would you still invest in them? Would you, like, I'll never forget that process through this specific family asking. And it really helped change to a degree my philosophy that my job wasn't to do something that I didn't have the ultimate power to do. My job was to love people. So even if they never do, I will take the step, build the relationship, be your friend. This isn't just a transaction. I'm trying to get you from here to there kind of thing.

That was really transformational for me. And crazy enough, but not through a series of years. This individual was gotten to small group, started, you know, over a period of time when you know you are loved and you are. are welcomed, the disarming pieces come down. Those pieces that we probably rightfully so have that are blocking me from accepting something or believing something. If I'm in an environment where it's fostered that it's okay to just travel along and be here, we love you no matter what, over a period of time, those things open up. You know what I mean? And so I think that's a story I'm thinking about, But even in a 20-minute talk or a five-minute or a 30-minute or a 20-year relationship with somebody, you know, it doesn't change the truth that I can communicate. But, you know, I don't necessarily change my message, but I absolutely am constantly, you know, we should always be aware of how do we treat people?

How do we love people? How do we, you know, interact with people? how do we accept people? So yeah, I think that's a tough part in the pastor world when you really desperately, passionately want to get people from here to there. But you also have to realize it is not your ultimate decision. It's just not, I'm there to do my best and turn the light on, help you see something and let you make that decision. Does that make sense? It makes sense. earlier this year, and I've talked about this on the podcast a few times, I had this just like new awakening with generosity.

And I've always considered myself, and I've been told I'm a generous person. And I think I learned this from my mom and my grandmother. My mom's side of the family, the hetrics were very generous people, but generous in a way that there was no expectation for a return from the generosity. So I learned that by observing them. But what I found that I started doing over time, I don't know why or what changed it,

but I'd be generous, and then people wouldn't respond in a way that I expected. So then I started building resentment and anger because I was doing this thing with an expectation of return. So it's like it became transactional. yes, I will be generous, but what are you going to do after I'm generous for or to you? Then I realized, oh my gosh, I'm approaching generosity in the worst way possible. And the way I discovered this was I actually just Googled one night because I wanted to include

this just thought process in my book that I'm right right now. And I was like, Bible generosity when people don't respond to or something like that. I was hoping that there'd be a chapter in the Bible verse discussing. They're talking about, and God telling me, don't be generous to people who don't accept it or appreciate it. But I came across the complete opposite, which was God wants you to be foolishly generous. I'm like, oh, gosh. So I should be generous with no expectation in return. but that's taking the high road

and it feels really good when you are. Like, I'm going to be generous or I'm going to show them the light. Yeah. Not because there's an expectation or a finish line that we're crossing together, but because it's the right thing to do. Yeah.

And that's my mission. That's what I was thinking when you were explaining that story. Yeah, and I've heard it explain this way too, but I'll just use this term, the gospel, which just means the good news clear message, which talk about how things get unclear and convoluted and so confusing when it started out to be the simplest message on the planet, was the whole message that Jesus presented,

right? And that gospel message is the upside down world. The way up is actually down. To get, you actually give like it's the opposite of the you know what i mean and it's um it's unnatural to a degree for us to to start there because we think the way up is higher you know better than got to beat got to win you know um and uh then to your term of generosity well i'll do this but i have an expectation of what's coming back to me for it. Versus when you give it away, it's things that you never miss and you find the joy in the actual giving. Now, let's talk just humanity and reality. We don't wake up feeling that way and thinking that way. We don't start that way. That's why we need, I mean, I'll put it in my terms here is that's why we need God in our life. I don't have the

ability to do that on my own. I don't. I'm going to wake up and go, how do I get it me. How do I, how do I prove my point in this conversation in this relationship? How do I, you know, get what's coming to me? And I don't think it negates the actual world we're living in. We do things in order to get somewhere, right? It's, that's a part of, you know, the sun comes up every day, you know, and the world operates and we have all these hours and what we put into our body, we get out of it, you know. So it doesn't take the practicality out of it, but it changes my motive for why I do what I do. When I recognize that, hey, it's not for me. It's not about me. It is from God for others through me. That and when I say that, I'm not saying I wake up every day and I'm

just this, you know, spiritual guru and just living like that. I'm telling you, when I wake up every day, that is not natural to me. So you have these moments of surrender, reception. I need to make sure I'm putting myself in that. And then the real work begins, you know? I mean, the easier work is when I'm just with me. The hard work is when I have to go and practice that. But that's like somebody saying, hey, I've got the best workout plan and diet plan in the world, but I just don't ever do it. You know, it's like, that is, that is the real work. And I think that is the whole message. And that is, it just doesn't come natural to any of us. And so we need help. Yeah, I used to get mad at myself for not being like a godly man.

Yeah. Because I thought it was this passive thing that was just, you know the scene from Space Jam where they touched the ball that Michael Jordan touched and it goes out your body and you turn to this different person? Yeah. I thought that's what faith was. Where I was like touching the Bible. I'm like, okay, this Bible's broke.

Give me another one. Why isn't it going through my body and coursing? into my veins and turning me into this new person. And I struggled for a long time until I've realized this is actually active work that is required. And the past couple months, I've committed to building my faith, my relationship with God. And it's provided me a lot of clarity, a lot of direction, a lot of purpose. And it's been very powerful. I can honestly say I'm a better person. I'm a better leader, I think from a stronger value system and foundation, I'm very proud and happy of the impact that building a relationship with God has had all my life.

By no means, am I perfect. I still cuss. I still speak with passion. I say things and do things. I really shouldn't. But I'm getting better. I'm trying to improve. No one ever said cussing was really wrong anyway. So I don't know. I'm just I'm going to quote that and tell my wife that. It's so fun. Anyway, some of the things. That's a whole other subject. That's for fire pits one night.

Yeah. No, but I think that that is, you know, those are those awareness moments that you recognize something. And, I mean, I'll just, I'll say this. And, you know, you have a lot of people that look to you. And you have earned that. You have worked hard to be where you are. You've built a company. You've built yourself. You've become a model. I mean, it's funny, you know, before you and I met,

I didn't know you and didn't know BPN and, you know, Nick Bear and the brand. But I have several friends that have seen interaction that we've had or something. And they're like, oh, my God, you know, this guy has been such an instance. I was just at a lunch with a guy that I'm just starting some coaching with. His name is Dylan. And you've, and you've, actually met him before. But he just said, you know, I'm a guy in the distance and I'm following something and I want my life to look and Nick has just been an example. I mean, there's, there are so many people that look to you for that. And that is something to be very proud of. I appreciate that. Yes. And you need to hear that. You know, I was telling, sitting with a bunch of friends the other day and I'm

like, man, we wait until a funeral to tell all the best things to one another. They need to hear it while. We need to hear while we're live and you can never ever ever over encourage somebody ever i don't care what anybody says oh they don't need to hear this yes they do they need to hear it so i want you to hear thank you for who you are in the example you've also helped old you know about to be 50 guy like me um i take my bpn products i've worked out harder and more consistent than i than i did before so you know yeah but but my point in that is when you've built something and you see the and you're passionate about helping other people do that, whether it's business, you know, our bodies being good stewards of all that, seeing maximum results, there is nothing in that

to be ashamed of. It's everything to be proud of. I think that the light switch comes on when you recognize, like you can get to the pinnacle of anything and go, wait a minute, there's still something more than just me. And that's when you recognize, okay, I, I, want to not just grow in my strength and in my business and all these areas of my life, I need to tap into the source of where it all comes from. And I think that is an incredible journey that we are all on, never perfecting it, but continually pursuing it. And by the way, I don't think that's all just some pie in the sky, supernatural, touch it, and it flows through our veins. If you really even read scripture, and here's a little pastor Pete for you,

there is a place where Paul, the most practical dude on the planet who wrote most of the New Testament, if you really read his writings, it always starts, every letter that he puts in there, starts with, here's theology, here's who God is, here's what he's created, which should be our starting point every day. The second half of every single one of his letters, it's all practical. So this is how you exercise it with your relationship with the government, with your spouse, with your kids, with your boss at work, with your employees. This is how you exercise it in the community. If you don't exercise your faith, then what good is your faith? You know, I mean, James is an incredible letter, and he was the half-brother of Jesus and just said, faith without works is

dead. So I think it starts with God. It's all because of him. But sometimes I've seen so many people throw out the practical piece and go, well, and I don't have a role in this. Yes, you do. It's 100% trust in God and 100% responsibility to do something with this one life that God has given me. So I just, I think it's amazing what you've done to your life. And that should never stop, be that model for so many people to follow. And, again, example. At the same time, the best parts of our lives that we can pass on to others, the best part is where it all comes from. That's my source. That's my faith. Because when those physical things, and I don't just mean our physical body, material things in life, when the

expectations of what could and should have happened do fall apart. And I've experienced some of those. If I don't have, you know, a real reality check of where my faith is, you know, is, then I'm in real trouble. If it's in me, I'm in trouble. But man, I've seen too many people who are people of faith that do nothing with their lives. And I'm like, that's dead faith. That's dead faith. You got to put some work to it. I heard you, you mentioned this earlier on the podcast. And I've heard you talk about this one on another interview before too, about the disappointment of failed expectations. And, you know, there's just popular quotes, saying you plan, God laughs.

And I often think about that because I'm a big planner. I'm like, if you fail to plan, you should plan to fail. Yeah. So I plan, I plan, I plan. And there's a lot of times where I plan everything and anything. Coming from the military, you have a plan, A, B, C. You have contingencies for everything. In the event that something doesn't work out, you have a fallback plan that you resort

to. why do you have this massive disappointment when you have these failed expectations throughout the course of your life? What does that feel like? And why is it so significant? Yeah. To be real practical, in 2019, I stepped out of vocational pastoring. And I never thought that I would do anything other than that. And it wasn't like something super big happened. I didn't have a choice. It was just this. It was kind of a mix of a couple things. I felt great disappointment because my expectation of what I would always do vocationally. And I'll just come back to this. Sometimes I think that we are chasing a golden egg and I think that it's an illusion.

And I think we, I don't know if it's just a guy thing. I don't know if it's a wiring of a person thing or a driven or a passionate person. but I so unintentionally probably even mixed up my identity as a human being and even as a child of God, so to speak, with my job. Well, I'm supposed to be this and I have to do this and I got to keep this rolling in this direction. And I really missed unintentionally again. the reality that that is not my full identity, like my job in that. And so I'm just giving you a glimpse of a disappointment, but it was based on a false expectation. Like my expectation of

this should go this way and it didn't go led me to that disappointment. And I think we have to be aware of, again, our surroundings and understand what do we need, you know, what are our priorities, in our relationships and such. It is not without planning. I mean, a wise person plans. You know, one of my other favorite proverbs is, you know, a wise or prudent person plans his way, yet the Lord determines his steps. And I don't think, you know, the horse is prepared for battle, but victory belongs to the Lord. One of my favorite phrases is it's just both hand. I don't think it's either or.

I don't think you either plan or trusting God. I don't think it's either, like I just said, trusting God or have personal responsibility. It's both. You have a plan. You work that plan. But let's remember, we live in a fallen world. We live in a world where we can't control everybody.

I cannot. There are things that are out of my control. My daughter with special needs is in this incredible school that's teaching her behavioral concepts to learn things in ways that you and I might have caught it in a different way. And they're learning these circles of control and they have this color chart and all these incredible ways. But it's really taught me a lot about helping her with her emotions based on what she's learning. I'm like, I do the same thing. Why am I so highly disappointed when somebody else did that? That wasn't something that I did.

so how do I respond? You know, so I think it really does come back to our response in times of disappointment is what's important. Will I go back and we were in that conversation earlier and sharpen the axe and come back? Or will I just stay down, you know? Yeah. That's something I wanted to bring up because as I mentioned, I'm listening to some sermons and some books from Irwin McManus right now.

And actually in one of his readings today, I was on a run and I pulled this quote. I stopped, I wrote it down because I'm listening to an audiobook. And he said, if your identity is rooted in your success, then you will lose who you are when failure comes in your way. Boy, that's good. And Steph, Steph gives it to me all the time where she's like, you can never be satisfied. Yeah. Like even when things are great, you want it to be better. and it's because my expectations are so high for what I know I can achieve that I get so mad at

myself, even when things are good, because I know myself and the team are probably underperforming and we're not going to reach our full potential. And then when we're underperforming, that's like, that's bad, that's a bad, bad, bad time. Death zone. Yeah. But in, in, um, And one of his Irwin's sermons I was listening to was called Keep Your Edge. And he uses really good analogy of the story. And he was a lumberjack when he was younger. And as a young lumberjack, he would go out and swing this axe all day to knock out on these trees. And there were these older gentlemen, 20, 30 years older than him, weaker, older but wiser,

who would work half the hours that he would in a day, and they would chop down more trees. So he took a break one day to go realize and watch what they were doing, and they would go work for a little bit, and they'd go drop off their axe to get sharpened, and they'd come back, and they hack away some more, drop it off, get sharpened, hack away some more. So here he was, this younger, more naive lumberjack,

who was putting forward great effort with less intentionality or strategy, and the older, wiser gentleman were applying less effort, but greater reward. And the reason I share that story is, you know, I look at your career, 20 plus years is Pastor Pete. Yep. And still pastoring, but like that was your primary job at a time. and you transitioned in 2019 to something new. And I could imagine that was probably this midlife crisis, which Arthur Brooks often says that we don't actually go through a life crisis.

It's a transition. This was a big life transition for you. And while we're in this transition between goals, it often feels like we're just wasting time and we're lost. But in the reality, it's usually a great time to sharpen your, your axe. So when you come back, you're putting forward less effort for greater reward. So I struggle with that sometimes in between goals, whether it's fitness goals and marathons or work projects. When there's this lull, I feel like I'm wasting time. But in reality,

I should be sharpening my axe. This could be like building my faith. This could be learning how to become a better communicator or take care of my family because I know I'm about to go in another sprint of life. But there's these lulls in life that I think we have the opportunity to sharpen our axe. And if we don't utilize those opportunities, you're just running around with this dull axe all the time. And it can suck. Yeah. And it's what you just said. A lot of times, you're just running around and you can feel busy. But one of the things that when you were saying that even during lull times, and this is actually the concept of the project I'm working on right now and gave a talk to a group of friends of mine that we love kind of all over

the country. There's a handful that live here in Nashville. And I gave like a beginning of the year little, here's let's go have a good, good year and some practical things around it. And the phrase, the mantra that I encouraged us to live by, which is what I'm really adopting and writing about right now is this concept of never not on mission. And even in times of transition, whether it's work, family, just the in-between, and definitely in times when I know exactly what I'm there to do and I'm following it every day. If we are living any moment of our life that if we don't feel like we have a mission, then that's what I mean by we don't have a purpose and we don't have something meaningful and we don't have direction. We have to transition our thoughts of, and this was a struggle for me coming out of, that 20 years of a career. I mean, for about two years, my, I had to find a way to take the skills

that I had and transpose that into now how do I go to businesses and companies or individuals and get paid for something that I feel like I'm offering some value. That was really hard for me. Plus, there was this identity. You're not a pastor anymore. And you were, you know, anyway, there was all those things fighting. But there should never be a time. And, anyone's life where we don't have a mission. And even if my career is on hold or during a transition, I should be working on my next career. And even if that, because of my health or due to some other circumstance, I have some priority relationships in my life that matter. That's my mission. And then there's this other pocket that is where our vision for the special needs community came from. And I call them

opportunity callings. There are times in life when probably due to our own story, there's some kind of personal pain or struggle that we face, there's something we're facing there. And it's an invitation, and I believe it's from God, to open our eyes to something out there that is calling us to get involved and to make a difference in the world and somebody else. So between our priority relationships, our work, and our opportunity callings, never not on mission. I always have a mission. And if I'm living like that, and it's easier to talk about it on this side, but I think that is what allows you to be okay to take the axe and bring it back and not feel like you've got to keep swinging it. It's like, no, my mission is to sharpen my axe, reset,

figure out what life has changed. There's an adjustment. And then appropriately come back and execute it. And another principle, as we were talking about communicating, especially when it's personal and clarity, kindness, making sure we get to the bottom line, I think we have to be very aware of timing. Sometimes decisions that we make,

we can be clear and this is what we need to do. This is where I, I have erred in many times if I could look back and change peat in some ways. I always thought if once I knew what to do, got to go do it right now. And I got to completely fulfill it and finish it right now. Because that's just the way I am like, I got to do something. Like, oh, I'm going to go mow the grass. I'm not going to just go mow a quarter of my yard. I'm not going to just like, I want to do the whole thing. And I want to go do it. Once I see something, let's get to work. When you're dealing with other people and when you're dealing with the larger

the higher the stakes, the more you better be sensitive to the timing. And I just didn't probably realize that. So that's another little piece that has been helpful for me in, yes, clearly communicated, but then step back and beware of your expectations of when this is going to get accomplished and how fast you got to move versus, man, you got other people at play here. You know, boy, I just, I wish I could have changed some of those things. But to the subject at hand. I just think we can live a never not on mission life. We have to have mission in life or we are just drifting and that's not healthy for anyone.

But it doesn't mean we know everything and see everything and see down the road. There have been times where I felt like I was on a nine year sprint where I saw it. I was moving. You come to an end on that and it feels like the rug gets pulled or you get a blindfold on your eyes and you're like, what's going on? Something's wrong. And you have to realize and step back, it's about the sum total. It's the, what does the end of the story look like? And if I care about that, then I'll be appropriate in how I handle the situation.

Man, that's good. Never not on mission? Never not on mission. Did you come up with that? Well, I don't know that I've heard that anywhere else, but I'm actually going to San Diego in a week and I'm doing a talk at a men's thing. And that's my title. I don't know if you're supposed to put it. this out there, but I've reserved the websites. That's the book I'm working on. Never

Not on Mission. That's gold. Got some hats being made, though. I'll save you one. I want that hat. I got you one. Dang. Well, Pete, man, this was really, really good. Really good. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for who you are. I appreciate you. And ever since we met, it's been truly a blessing. So I appreciate you. Everything you're doing out there. Next time you come on the show, we'll talk about beyond communities, what you're doing. I want to get involved. Maybe we can document building all of that together. You're going to be involved.

Yeah, I want to be involved. You're part of the story. So there will be a round two to this episode. But I appreciate you, man. Thank you. Thank you.