The Nick Bare Podcast - 083: How Faith and Discipline Shape Your Successes with Joe Champion

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

Today, I'm joined by Pastor Joe Champion, Senior Pastor of my church, Celebration Church. He and I share our life experiences, touching on leadership in ministry, balancing family responsibilities, and having a strong foundation in faith. We specifically navigate building both a brand and a church while handling criticism and pressure. Pastor Joe's personal anecdotes, disciplined upbringing, and emphasis on stability and consistency in parenting offer deep insights into achieving greater fulfillment in all areas of life. Strength, endurance, and wellness supplements to fuel your performance. SAVE 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio FOLLOW: IG: https://www.instagram.com/thenickbarepodcast YT: youtube.com/@nickbarefitness JOE CHAMPION: IG: @joechampion Visit celebration.church for more information 00:00 Introduction and Personal Connections 01:29 Pastor Joe's Influence on the Podcast 06:47 Faith and Family Foundations 09:56 Balancing Ambition and Responsibilities 18:19 Handling Criticism and Public Perception 26:45 Building Trust and Values in Leadership 36:36 Sustaining Success in Church Leadership 37:27 Intentional Youth Engagement 40:19 Balancing Inspiration and Instruction 45:26 Addressing Modern Challenges 01:05:13 The Importance of Consistency 01:10:34 Personal Reflections and Legacy 01:14:38 The Origin of 'Go One More'

So God will not at the end of our lives. He won't count your success. He weighs your success. He doesn't count churches. He doesn't say, wow, that church has 10,000 people. That must be a really good church. No, he weighs it. There's churches that have 10,000 people, but they don't weigh 10 ounces.

They don't weigh 10 pounds in goodness. But they have 10,000 people. Well, they have 10 pounds of relationship value. Or there are some churches that go to 100 people, and boy, they weigh 10,000 pounds. It's like, there's some density. These people are solid. Bigness is not always great. And we, the world thinks, if it's big, it's great.

That's not how the reality of life is. Pastor Joe, welcome to the show. It's great to be here. Just amazing to sit in front of you and all things, BPN. It's great to watch the growth. It's been a long time coming. Yes, it has been. You know, Steph wanted me to bring this up, but, you know, this past year we moved away from

Texas. We moved to Tennessee, and then we moved back to Texas. And one of the things that made that move easier was knowing that celebration, the church that you and Lori built here in Georgetown was home for us here. In the first sermon or the first church service that we came back to, we were sitting in the back of the congregation. And we didn't know or think that you knew we were there. And you made a comment about going more. I'm hearing you speak. I'm like, oh, it sounds like

it's going towards going more. And then you mentioned that we just recently moved back out there stuff and Steph started crying. It was very impactful and very meaningful. So we appreciate that and the warm welcome back. But celebration is a really important, significant place for us as a family.

Well, it's an honor to be close to y'all the staff, the team, so many of your employees, people that we have connected to our world, there is a real cross-pollinization. And I just tell everybody I preach whatever you preach on your podcast, I'll just do it a week later, figure out a way to maybe find a scripture or find a way to put it into the context of what we do. But yeah, in a world of change, in the world of what you're seeing right now, so many people moving around and shifting and half of our church would be California related now.

Home is a big deal. I mean, if you just don't sense that you have a home or a base, a place where you feel safe, frankly, it's a crazy world out there. And so thanks for letting us be a part of it, small part. Yeah, absolutely. I use your sermons as a foundation of a lot of my podcast. a lot of the content that I speak on behalf of because the things that you speak about on a weekly basis, I think about how that applies to the person that I am becoming, the legacy that I want

to leave, the father that I want to be, the husband that I'm learning how to become. So I sit there in church listening to you thinking, how do I take this and apply this to my life over this next week? And as I was explaining to you before we started recording, A lot of the people who are following me and have been following me for years now have grown with me in a similar season of life. I think that season is learning how to be a spouse and a partner and raise children and be very ambitious with work but also content at home. And that's one of the things that I consistently struggle with is,

I'd love to dive into this throughout this episode because you've built something absolutely incredible as well. being pulled to build something and be very, very ambitious. But at the same time, not neglecting responsibilities and being present with the people you love and the things you're doing and trying to become at that given time as well, that's something that I consistently struggle with. But church for me and faith has been a strong foundation to guide me in the right direction. Yeah.

Well, I had great parents to answer or to even add to that thought about how do you find that balance between wanting to build something and blow the world up with a product or with a gift that obviously comes from above. I watched a dad. My father was an NFL football coach who, after World War II, after serving in the army and battle the bulge and literally almost dying like all those guys did. often called the greatest generation. A lot of those guys came back and they weren't great at parenting. They weren't great after a war and your military background. My brothers are both military career. But I watched my dad teach a lesson without them really teaching me a lesson. And that is he turned down the Oakland Raiders twice with John Madden, Al Davis,

because he said, I saw an army cot behind the desk in the office. of every assistant coach. And he said, Al, John, what are those army cots for? And they said, well, we expect during this football season for you to spend at least three nights a week here. And because if we're going to win, you need to not be at home. You need to be here.

And my dad said, if I lose my family trying to build a Super Bowl team for you, it's not worth it. It's not worth losing my boys who they would raise a general, an Army General two-star, a colonel in the Marine Corps, and I'm in the Lord's Army, as a pastor now, mockingly. I look back and my dad made decisions about how do you find balance, and he was in a high

level, a high achiever, NFL coach. And frankly, they did that with the understanding that you only have one shot at raising a great family. You only have 18 summers with those kids. And then, of course, Faye. is such a vital part of that. He really didn't come from a background of faith. But seeing it scripturally, they were actually modeling a scriptural precedent

or a scriptural life without even realizing that that was in the scripture. Or that is something that really man didn't come out with that idea of how do you balance? How do you have a balanced life of what Jesus said? He grew physically. He grew intellectually. He grew spiritually. and he grew socially, Luke 252. And there's a way to do this thing.

And I know at times it won't look like you're balanced. It won't look like you have it all together. But yeah, people are watching. And this is what's awesome about our lives, is that we are a book that people are reading and watching. And however that platform is, wherever that platform is, for me, I'm very aware of people watching or people as a pastor, as a leader, people are watching you watch and you in rest of,

restaurants, which is okay, that's fine. It's just part of the, part of leadership, you know. But it's just awesome to see what is happening with you and Steph and just the constant influence of making the lives of people around you better, you know. So thanks for what little part, again, we get to play in that. And I'm excited about your future. Do you feel a lot of pressure being a pastor in such a large church with so many people that the eyes are always on you? Yes and no. I mean, I say it like this. You may have eyes on you as a leader, company leader. I'm sure people watching and listening are leading people. But if you live to a bigger eye, the eye, I mean, there's really one set of eyes that I'm ultimately

responsible for and ultimately wanting to please. And that would be the Lord in my life. I wasn't raised in a spiritual home. But when I came in college to the understanding and the reality Christ in my life and the reality of his eyes. Everybody else, everybody else's eyes that are watching me are pale in comparison. So you take it to a higher standard. He's the ultimate. Therefore, I'm not worried about as much as to what others see. If I'm doing that right, I'm going to be right in every area. And you just can't please everybody, but ultimately you live to please one set of eyes. And then from there, it just starts to get into, of course, your spouse and your children.

There's been failures, of course. There's days, but yeah, the pressure, yeah, you do live in a glass house to some degree. I watch people in our neighborhood slow down and see what we'll watch on TV. We have glass front doors, you know, and they'll like, hey, I saw what you're watching last night. Interesting. You know, or over the years, those kind of things happen. Or I saw what you ordered. Or, you know, you're in grocery store here in Texas.

We have H.E.B. And people, hey, what's that? Joe, and then they go immediately to my basket. And they look at what I got inside the basket. Most of the time, it's sugar related. But it's okay. It's part of the job. It's part of being a leader.

We were in seaside, Florida last summer. And Charlie was, I guess, just over one years old at the time. And we were at the beach, and we came off the beach. We were saying watercolor, actually. And we were ordering some drinks, and we had Charlie with us, and this gentleman came up to us. And his son recognized me from YouTube. And he came up, and he wanted to just strike some conversation. And we're just talking back and forth, and he didn't really know about me, but his son did.

And we're talking about the fitness industry and training and nutrition and health. And at the end of the conversation, he goes, by the way, I saw you were feeding your daughter, Jesus. I caught you. And I was like, yes, my daughter does eat cheese its ever so often. You know, it's not perfect. But he wanted in that moment to be like, I caught you. Yeah. No, you didn't catch me.

Right. It is what it is. Yeah. But I found that very, very interesting. Yeah, and I have had the airplane experience where I had, we were delayed. We were sitting on the tarmac in Phoenix. I had to be back in Austin for a really big event. and I put my feet, nobody was in the seat in front of me,

so I had an open seat in front, so I wasn't pushing the people, and I had my feet up in the chair in front of me, flight attendant comes by and says, hey, I need you to get your feet off the seat in front of you. I'm 6'5. We've been three hours on the tarmac in Phoenix. So it's hot, and we're late, and they just don't have anybody working the ramp.

And so after about another 30 minutes, my knees back up on the seat in front of me. I'm sitting on the aisle on the coach of the plane. And second time she walks by and she goes, I already told you once, Pastor Joe, I don't want to tell you a third time. Get your feet, get your knees off the seat. I go to your church.

And I went, well, I can respond in two ways. Either get this airplane going and get me where I'm supposed to go, or I can go, you're right. I'm sorry, wasn't a good example. Yeah. Yeah, so it works in all sorts of ways. There are people that want to catch you. There are people that are looking for the reason of criticism or depending on what we do for a living.

People want to see if we're contrary to that, compromising that. And then there are those times where you're like, yeah, probably need to be better at behavior, walking through TSA and being kinder to people because you just never know who's watching. And that's okay. That's part of life. Something that I used to struggle with as I've grown my, my personal brand. I put my life out there.

Since 2014, I've been documenting my life and sharing it with everyone, which invites a lot of feedback and criticism. It is what it is. And I used to let a lot of that criticism and feedback affect me. Personally, I would take it very personal,

almost in a way that that feedback and that criticism was the ultimate guide and truth that was holding me accountable. And growing up, We went to church, but there wasn't a very, there wasn't a relationship with God. It wasn't a really strong faith. And then over the last couple years, Steph and I both have really worked to build a relationship with God and lean into our faith.

It's made a huge impact on our lives. And one of your sermons, this was a while back, maybe years ago, I first heard you mention that we live in a worldly world and some of our thoughts and the things that affect us are worldly. And the way that you explained that completely shifted my perception of whose opinion actually matters. And the way that I live my life and setting my north star and my guide of where I'm heading and what I'm focused on, that all of these people can, they can doubt me, they can

criticize me. They don't have to like what I'm doing or what I'm saying. But I'm living my life with. you know, the word of God and Jesus as where I'm heading. I'd love to kind of dive into that a little bit. Because I think there's so many people now, especially in a world that is this glass box. And we're always being watched and observed and criticized.

It's really easy to allow those opinions to shift who we become. And then 10, 20, 30 years later for someone who we never wanted or intended to be. Yeah. Yeah. It's been, well, we've been doing what we've been doing ministry-wise. You know, my dad was an NFL coach and then coming out of that world, I lived around criticism growing up because most of my dad's football teams weren't that good. Now, we had a few good teams, but I grew up, he coached for the Saints.

We were terrible. He coached for the Cardinals twice, St. Louis Cardinals, before the move to Phoenix. The second time he was part of a staff with Don Corrielle, and for those that would remember those years, that was Jim Hart and Mel Gray and Dan Deirdorf. We won a few of those, but then there were the Jets with Lou Holtz and Atlanta with the Falcons Bart Star with Green Bay.

Most of my growing up was listening to the coaches say your dad sucks as a coach, or your dad's terrible, or the Falcons are terrible, and getting in fights or wanting to fight people. I think some of that helped growing up, no matter what you do. Now, they would all admit, you've got a cool dad. They still wanted to come to my house. They still wanted to.

So I would find that even those that are the most critical sometimes are actually the most envious, and that a lot of criticism comes out of envy. A lot of criticism, a lot of comments actually are coming out of hearts that they wish they were you, but instead of changing themselves, they're going to attack you instead of adjusting. It's easier to find fault with people than it is to find fault with yourself. So all that to say, I think having some insight as to where do those criticisms come from

and then being in the ministry, being in church, having people come and go, I had a guy say, I'll never come to a church where the pastor has fake teeth. And I went, what are you talking about? He says, well, look at your teeth. they're all capped. And I said, you mean they're brushed? Like, I've never had anything done to my teeth. I go to the dentist, and I'm not against cap teeth.

I'm not against people doing what's good with your teeth. But this guy wanted to figure out a way why he didn't like me. And he goes, you're fake. And I said, I brush my teeth. You wish you would just have, do you want somebody that just doesn't brush their teeth and floss like you? You know, you just want to, now you want to come back. So I've learned that people. are hurting. Criticism is often a sign that they're listening to you. And if they're not talking

about you, frankly, the scariest thing for any brand or any church is when nobody's saying anything about you because nobody cares. When it gets to that level, then that's a worry. But criticism is part of any leadership. It's a part of any company. It's a part of any church. It's a part of anyone that is doing something right. And look, ultimately, look what they did to Christ, they killed the guy. I mean, he died doing this. They died, or they attacked him to the point of killing him because they were critical and they didn't like what he said

and looked for ways to take him out. And I think we've got to recognize that that's just, that's life. There's another little scripture about when Paul was preaching in Acts 17. and it says some hated what Paul was preaching. Some said we're going to listen to you again, and if you're back here next week, we'll do some more considering it. And then the third group was, okay, we believe what you say, and we're going to follow you.

So it's part of growing up, I think, and part of the aging process, I'm 60 now. And Nick, after this kind of life of being in a public kind of atmosphere, though I don't want to be in an atmosphere of publicity. I try to do whatever I can to take any targets off our back. But the good news is as you age, you forget quickly. The difference between now and 35 years ago is I don't actually carry the criticism for longer than a couple of minutes. You just only have so much space.

You only have so much time. And if you know you're doing right, you're doing good. You just keep doing good. And you just keep doing the right thing. You keep building a company based on what is of value to people. You're adding value to people. That's all you can do. And you just let the chips fall where they do.

And it's just part of the world that we live in, frankly, ultimately. People are attracted to, there's a greater degree of darkness. There's a greater degree of darkness, obviously, than light. Light is rare. And so people are going to darkness being criticism and attacking and hate and all the things that go with that, it's easier to be critical. It's a Canaan and Abel story, you know. Abel was just doing great. If you will, the Bible says everything about his life was being blessed.

And then his brother Kane, he's mad, he's furious. And even God goes, what are you upset about? If you do what he did, if you apply the principles that he's applying to his life, you'll be blessed like him. Well, instead of him repenting, instead of him going, all right, I think I need to go spend some time with him. He kills him. And that, again, is what's kind of the nature of the world. And when we see that, we know that, it's not personal. Because most of the time when people are criticizing you or criticizing the listeners in their particular field, unless it's valid.

and you always got to listen to, okay, is there some truth behind it? Is there some things that maybe I can learn and take away? I've always, I believe there's 10% of, there's something in there. There's about 10% of truth and everything. But we also have to be careful of changing our game plan, changing our company. I had a little issue recently. A lady came up and just said, you need to be saying this more. And I said, well, I do say things in relation to what she wanted me to say more.

And I said, you're just not here enough. She goes, I don't miss. I said, yes, you do. And then, of course, she began to confess, yeah, I was gone. I said, well, maybe that's when I addressed it. Or maybe that's when I'd. So you just got to let it. You just got to let that not sink into your heart and keep going.

Just keep doing the right thing. I do think there's a lot of parallels between building a brand, like the brand that I've built, and then building a church, like you've built as well. Yeah. One of my favorite books that I've read in this past year is called For the Culture. And it talks about what separates brands and actually even uses congregations. What separates brands, communities, tribes, congregations from groups of people who don't form these types of communities. And the way this book describes it is there's two different ways you can try to build something. One is through an irresistible offer, which is oftentimes unrealistic, to pull people in, trick them, dupe them, and then

hopefully they don't leave. And the other is you establish a set of beliefs and values. And you don't necessarily go look for those people, but those people find you because they share those beliefs and values. So that's the approach that I've taken with building BPN, you know, the last couple years and then moving forward. But I'm curious, coming from a family that wasn't necessarily in ministry or didn't have a foundation of faith.

In fact, anti-minister, yeah. So what were those beliefs and values that kind of allowed you to pursue or explore a life of ministry and faith? I think doing what I'm doing is very much like coaching. I've heard it said by generals, as I said earlier, my brother, so Dad served in World War II and was a sergeant for the three years in the Army. Like that generation was in the 40s. My other brother, Greg, 38 years, two-star, special forces. and then the other brother Keith, retired colonel, went to the Naval Academy, then went Marine Corps and flew F-18s.

Being around those guys, and then I wanted to be a chaplain in the military. I actually went to go to New Orleans Seminary to begin that process. And what I learned from those guys, especially from the military background and ministry, it's very similar because there is actually we're called be soldier-like as Christians. We're active duty. We're not weekend warriors or when it comes to our faith. We're full on in this. We're all in.

Now, I would say I watched all three of my greatest mentors being my family members. They built trust with everyone that they led. They were trusted. So the deeper you would, I would, I say to our team, our cultures, the deeper people go with us, the better it should get. They should not all of a sudden realize, oh, he is not who he was selling himself to be. We're not selling anything. I mean, you're adding value to people.

I'm adding value to people. Yes, I know your exchange is different than our exchange, but ultimately, I think it's trust. I think it's at the end of this journey with us personally, or as they come into our culture, they find that there are people that are not out for their own personal gain only, though people are to be blessed and people increase and you grow a company and that's a great thing. But at the heart of it is that we're not here to take advantage of people and that we're here to add value to people and we're here to make a difference in the lives of people. nobody, I've heard it said, nobody wants a tyrant, but they do want a coach.

So we're not tyrants. We're frankly, we're offering coaching. We're offering pastoring. We're offering shepherding. We're actually offering our experiences. Like, hey, I've learned the hard way, and this is maybe something that you might want to consider. So in that culture for us and what I've tried to do, and taking my background, not only did my dad play and coaching the NFL.

I played at LSU and having that background of before I became a Christian, I was the team party captain. So I was planning parties and then later on I'd plan chapel services. But you know what? The goal was kind of the same. I wanted people to enjoy life, right? So I just did it from Yeagermeister. and the bourbon shots to now, okay, let's get to have a personal relationship to Christ

and the reality of God and you don't wake up sick the next morning. But the culture, I like to use the word process, I think, about how we just try to put into the culture of our staff, 120, 130 on team. Now, plus we have Mozambique and Italy. We just talk about process. So the word process, even in our own life is number one prioritized, just what's our our priority. Anyone that's going to be successful has to establish the priorities. What's the brand? What's the product? What's our goal? We can't do everything. What are we going to be good at? I think the second letter is responsibility. I'm not looking for somebody to do something for me. I take personal responsibility. I can't I can't live and die by criticism or I can't live and die based on if somebody calls me and encourages me. we each got to get out of bed every day

and make up our own mind. I'm going to take responsibility for my day, my future. Talk about the letter O is overcome obstacles. That's just the reality. You're going to have to overcome defeat. You're going to have to overcome bad days. You're going to have to overcome losses, failures. But all of that's a process.

That's all part of the process. Character would be the letter C, and that is just where you've got to do the right thing. I was listening. I listened to a lot of military talk, a lot of military history and character, even in the military and your background as well, there were bombings averted. Literally grenades were not thrown by the enemy in various places

because of the character of the military, of the Marine or the Army, or our military personnel would treat people in a certain way. And instead of throwing that grenade for $300 a grenade like they were paid to do in a base, or if they were like a civilian contractor from a local country, they wouldn't throw those grenades because they said we were treated with character, we were treated with integrity. Those things come back. Like it eventually comes back and what you sow you'll reap.

Talk about evaluation. The letter E is, are you willing to be evaluated? Are you willing to ask somebody, did that look right? Or am I doing the right thing? letting people, like beginning with our wife, say hard things to us. And then the last two would be those two last Ss in process and self-discipline. And are we willing to, you know, pay the price? And then the last one is stay.

You've got to stay. You've got to stay in it. You've got to stay positive. You've got to stay around. And I, we just kind of just keep hammering that into our culture, our team. And like you, you know, you have a young company. We're a young church. I mean, we're 23 years old, but I don't think that we're old.

We've got a young city. Like Austin is a very young, single-minded city. We've got to keep making sure that we don't. Well, I'll put it like this. I think with any entrepreneurial endeavor that starts. So typical churches, if the founding pastor, like me, I started the church at 36, How old were you when you started BPN? 22.

22. So a little different there, but you were a lot wiser. The typical church goes like this, the first 10 years, with that founding pastor, it grows. The second 10, so from year 11 to 20, it starts to plateau. And then the third generation, into that 20 to 30 years, it starts to decline. And the congregation actually ages, will they come in at the age of the pastor? And then they start to go out with the pastor. It literally rises and falls with the founder.

And so what a lot of young leaders don't do is set up the next generation. How do we make sure we're driving this thing young? How do we make sure that we're not aging out? Because if the pastor has children's ministry or this could be for any company, whatever he or she is interested in, that's typically where they're going to be good at. And then as they don't have kids in the children's ministry, guess what?

Then the children's ministry starts to suffer. Or, you know, it's the same thing in any kind of company. We just got to make sure that there is that culture that begins to actually make decisions for you. This is not me making a decision. It's how we do life. It's how we approach life. And it's not feelings. It takes out the emotion.

And then you're making right decisions. I mean, you know this. Every military story of great heroes, those that have won the Medal of Honor, the Bronze Stars, all of them will say, I don't remember what I did in those moments in which I'm being awarded. I can't even tell you what I did. I was listening to one man who was in World War II, and he was awarded the Medal of Honor, and they said he fought for four hours, six hours, and he goes, I don't remember any of it. I just did what I was trained to do.

And that's that's the highest, I think, to some degree where you're living towards a cause and a purpose and a principle that takes out all of the highs and lows of emotions. And it allows us to be sustainable. It's very interesting where you said the church typically rises with that founding pastor and falls with that founding pastor. it's very similar with a lot of companies, brands, organizations. But you being 23 years into this church, you know, going to celebration every Sunday, there's more and more people who are showing up, more younger people.

So what have you done to set that up for success? Was that intentional or is that based off of... Yeah, no, it's intentional. I think having a dad who coached, and I'll refer back to a father who was a pastor, frankly, was a pastor. NFL. He coached with 22-year-old players. Or very seldom did he have a player over 35 or 36, right, unless you're a Tom Brady and you're an outlier. But as a team, you've got to make sure that

it's filled with youth and it's filled with the generations and especially in Austin. So I'm aware of what I think a pastor or communicator, somebody that's leading like you. You're on that platform. What's coming out of your mouth? What's coming out of your humor? What's coming out of your view of life? Are you letting them know you know what they're thinking? I think half the battle is, especially in my world, people need to, who walk in skeptical, going, why should I believe anything that you're saying? Who are you? Especially in the world of church. There's a lot of hurt. There's a lot of deconstruction. There's a lot of stuff in the church world. And already there's a battle going on for it.

So I've got to make sure that people think, and they know that I'm thinking the way they're thinking. I think staffing is a key. So you have to, you got to drive your church to reach all the generations. I mean, we do need age. We do need seasoning. We do need people who have experience. And there are those guys that can walk into those funerals

or those hospital rooms and find, they can look at a man and go, okay, this guy's lived through some stuff. And then at the same time, you've got to have young people on the team who are thinking like those 18-year-olds, those 12-year-olds. I've heard it said that great pastors can preach to about a sixth grade level. Having an LSU degree allows me to naturally do that, I think. So maybe my greatest compliment is when parents say to me, my son is 15 and he doesn't want to go to youth.

He wants to stay in, he wants to stay in big church. I know we're getting it then. Like if my humor is touching that 15-year-old kid, I know then we're going to be around for the long haul. So do you view your job more so as a coach than a teacher? I'll add context to that. As I was hearing you talk,

I'm thinking about teaching and teaching. Teaching has a curriculum, typically, and the teacher creates the curriculum based of what they think they should or have to teach that student. But coaching is being proactive where you're problem solving based off of the problems that we as the students are experiencing. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's what you do. You offer inspiration. You are, you're part of that. And this is for anyone that might be listening as to maybe what they're trying to build. There is the side of it. There's a half of it is inspiration. There's a picture.

There's a goal. There's a vision. There's a dream. I want that. Or I want to look like that. I want to be that. And that coach has to provide that inspirational aspect. You can do it.

Get back out there. Don't quit. Where have you been? There are times where that coach, you know, pat's him on the backside and says, get back out there. And then there's a time of that coach grabs him by the face. face mask and says, let's go. You're not going to give up. But then there's the other side,

and that is instruction. So I'm both. I'm very aware that I'm called to inspire, but I'm also called to instruct. And that is the teaching aspect. That's the ingredients of your product. Let's face it, if BPN products or if even Celebration Church was all inspirational without instruction, if we don't have good ingredients, people pair. for the lack of nourishment. People perish for the lack of instruction. They perish for the lack of knowledge. So they need to know what does it say?

What are the ingredients to make this life the way that I believe God has intended us to live? And how to win. Because he didn't create us to lose. He wanted us to win. He died for that reason. And so what are the ingredients? What does it mean to walk with Christ? Who is he?

what are the various teachings that the Bible talks about, the elementary principles. So it's both. I think that we have been overly inspired in today's world. People are looking for inspiration when a lot of times they just need good instruction. Motivation's great. That's that motivation, I call it. There is that motor that you need.

But you also, you need some mechanics. You need some order. Like you can be motivated to get it a bit and go work out, but if you don't know how to lift that weight properly, you're going to tear some, you're going to spend more time in rehab. Right. It's both because you can actually lift more weight

with better instruction. Order is power. I mean, it's what you all do so well. It's why people are watching and listening to you. It's even what your brand is and even what BPN does, and that is offering a hybrid athlete that's a little bit different. you can appeal to a guy that's in the NFL right now who wants body mass and then you run 100 miles at the same time.

That's not all motivation. That or inspiration. There's a lot of instruction there. There's a lot of technique. So it's both. And if I'm not careful, the masses want inspiration. The world that we live in today wants to feel good. They want to just feel good about themselves.

But sometimes that's, you want to feel good at the expense of truth, at the expense of what's right. You're not going to feel good if you're not living right. Like I can't, you're not going to have joy and you're not going to have peace if you're eating junk in your world. Or if you're eating and consuming or watching doing things that you shouldn't be doing. You're not going to have a good marriage if you're not in order. There's a scripture in Isaiah talks about getting your house in order. you're about to die. And of course, he, in that whole story there with Isaiah and Uza, the whole thing ends up with,

God gives him 15 more years, he gets his house in order. The order brought more life. And I think that's the balance. And it's the same thing in parenting, three boys. There's days where you're like, let's go, guys, get out of bed. And then there's the other days where let's sit down and, talk you know let's let's go through some things let's look at goals let's look at where we are as a family one of the books i mentioned frequently it's called the molecule more it's all about dopamine

and dopamine is released into our brain based off this desire to want something inspiration does that for a lot of people people want inspiration because they want this dopamine dump of i want this i want to feel like this i want to look like this but then when it's time to do the things to get there, many people don't want to do that. And by the time they actually get what they thought they wanted, they actually don't like it. Which happens to so many people. I'm curious, though, the way that you craft your messaging and what you talk about, because it's coming from a lot of this coaching mindset, what are you seeing in the world in the congregation with people that is driving your message?

What are you, what problems are you trying to solve right now that you're seeing happen now? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of hurt. There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of depression. There's a lot of anxiety. There's a lot of questions and concerns in every realm of life. So I think you start with like even when Christ walked this planet,

man, he came and he was doing good, healing all who were oppressed. And he went about literally, in his way, of course, he was able to provide these miraculous experiences and healings and eyes being open ears. We can talk about what he went about doing. But all of that was so that to prove who he was and to show, guys, I've come to heal, I've come to help you. So he started with felt needs.

He was very aware of it says that he saw the sheep. were scattered and they didn't have a shepherd, didn't have a coach, they didn't have a leader, they didn't have any teaching. So I start there. I start with trying to really honestly pray about God, where are the people hurting today? Or where is the need? And that can sometimes not necessarily be in the form of they're depressed or they're anxious. Sometimes it's they're disobedient. Like, okay, so let's bring some correction. I'll start there. I think with age after doing this for 37 years,

almost full-time pastoring and preaching now and communicating. I also have you got a bank of knowledge. You start to have enough information. You have a warehouse. So I do write out every message from start to finish, but I don't probably 90% of what I write out, I don't end up communicating. It's more of a security blanket when I walk up there.

But I'm speaking to their situation. I'm speaking to the age, not from it. I think that's the balance. I've got to be careful of just speaking from their pain, from their hurt. But what is, frankly, what is the, what's the God thought? What's the revelation that is going to open up their eyes to cause them to get it? Because if they can get that revelation, if their eyes can be open to the truth and the reality of Christ and his power, his ability, then it's what you see in your own world.

People, they start to own it. They start to, wow, okay, this is not just Nick, or this is not just this particular athlete doing this. And you're teaching people how to become self-featers and readers. Because if people are always needing somebody to prop them up and to get them out of bed, we know between Sundays and our world they're not going to make it. Monday morning comes or Thursday morning comes or whatever that situation comes

and it will come, it's not if it comes. Do they have, have they been taught how to self-sustain, how to self-discipline, how to be a self-starter? So it's kind of an all-thing, all-inclusive. I'm looking for, obviously, I bring in my own personal stories, own personal failures,

and that's part of what I believe true communicators do. The stories are my favorite. I mean, that's just what people remember. Yeah, it's, there's always a, sometimes when you start a story, I'm like, where, where are we going with this one? But it creates the memory that I do remember, and there's a connection. And then for the next week, I'm thinking about that and how it applies to things I'm experiencing. Recently, one of the ones that really stuck, and I actually talked about this one on a recent podcast, It was right after the Paris Olympics opening with the Last Supper style intro.

And you talked about how we have to reject or move away from conformity and to transform to be more godlike. And using that story and that message and that that just made things click so well for me. And I've thought about that so much since you talked about it. Yeah. Well, for those that are not believers, and I get it. I wasn't a believer all the way up until, frankly, until I was about 21, 22. Why of all the things that they could have talked about, is that the thing that they're talking about? It's what's on everybody's mind because they all know there's that God whole. There's that, frankly, God created a hole in all of us that only he can fill in Christ.

And so all that to say, there is a bigger world that's going on out there. That's, frankly, very motivating to me. That's very encouraging to me to go, okay, this stuff is not a joke. And what we're dealing with is not random. And that we're not just molecules bouncing and atoms bouncing off of atoms. And we're just in this world without a purpose, without a plan, without a doubt. destiny. And that's part of even that reality of bringing in that illustration, and I'm sure a lot of people saw it, that just lets you know that there is a, there's a real, there's a war, but then there's also the reality that people are looking for.

Reality. And that's what frankly brought me to become a Christian was the reality of Christ. Not the religiousness. He wasn't religious. He was just brought reality. but he did combat religion. That was his biggest issue. So, yeah, it helps me live daily. It helps me live in a world where we're all tempted. We're all going to be tempted, the Bible says. And we're all going to, we're in this nature.

We haven't, yes, we're being, frankly, conformed to his image and his likeness. We have his spirit as believers, but then there's a, let's face it, we all, we still are in this body that decays. We still have a nature that could go astray, you know, and so it's a daily, it's a daily battle. Have you seen people who have experienced levels of success in the absence of a firm foundation of faith, truly be happy and fulfilled? Well, no, you can't, no, because there's only, and we,

what we do know is that the money, the beauty, the glory fades. I mean, it's a fact that you can attain it all. You can have every boat, you can have every car, you can have every trip. You can have every piece of furniture that your heart's desire. And then it's never enough. Just go to the Mediterranean. And again, I know so many people probably listening have been there. if you're in Puerto Fino or if you're in some beautiful med spot where boats are pulling up next to each other,

we're talking the most beautiful private yachts of the world. Wow, look at that one. It's probably a $30 million boat. And 20 minutes later here comes here comes up, $40 million boat. And here comes up, $100 million. It's just never enough. So to answer your question, no. Because only having that personal relationship to Christ can there be that fulfillment?

Because he is the giver of life. So he giving us this life is the only one that can fill us in this life. He's the author of it. He's the creator of it. And he's obviously he came. He did make us. And of course there was the disruption. It's the story of what happened.

It's a real simple story, but it's the reality that man, frankly, we went to where we wasn't supposed to go. In that Adam's story, and he went to that tree that God says, don't eat of that apple. Don't eat of that tree. Frankly, he just said, don't partake of that fruit. And there was disruption and discord and division. But here's the good news. The simple reality is that Christ came to a tree. Just as the first Adam lost it at a tree,

the second Adam, Christ is called the second Adam. He went to a tree called the cross. And so that first Adam lost it. The second Adam gained it. There was confusion from the first tree. And then after that, Christ comes. He dies out on a tree. and he brings peace.

He brings satisfaction. Of course, he's the Lamb of God. Because no one can have forgiveness of sins, and everyone knows that they've sinned. Everyone knows they've messed up. So ultimately, when it comes down to it, everybody knows they need forgiveness and grace. Everybody wants that.

That's the ultimate of all gifts. Yes, it's eternal life, but it comes through the grace of God and grace being displayed for us on the cross. So I've seen people at the end of their life, man, still miserable with everything, with every kind of trophy, every kind of pleasure. And that's what so much of scripture talks about. I would encourage anybody. That's what Ecclesiastes says. I tried it all. I went there, smoked it, drank it, ate it, participated in it.

And he goes, at the very end of Ecclesiastes, he goes, I'll come to this conclusion, fear God. like that's it really does come back to that that's awesome to be honest with you because it it really does make life it really helps us get into the right lanes it helps us get back into he didn't come he didn't come to take away our fun he came to take away our pain he came to take away our problem our problem is we think it's out there and it's not and I always joke I said I thought life was all about running into a football stadium at LSU or or wanting to be an NFL football player like my dad in the NFL world. And I'd much rather be at a table with a few folks like this

than running into Tiger Stadium with 105,000 people screaming and hollering and singing Colin Baton Rouge. Because in the end, it doesn't last. There's only seven home games. And the reality is there's only so much time. And after that, it's it. And then there's forever, you know. So for me, that's what began to realize,

okay, this is true. This is not, and for me, that's what I wanted. I just wanted what was true. I just wanted the truth. When I first started building BPN, and we actually started gaining some traction, as things were getting better financially

and stability and security, with each additional win, I thought it would bring more fulfillment and happiness. And it never really did, because I was then just looking for that next hit of that next win, that next success, that next milestone. And for the longest time, I did the deepest search on the internet. I read the books. I talked to people.

Like, why am I unhappy? Why am I unfulfilled? I was searching for everything. And the answer was in front of me the entire time. It was leaning into my faith, but I avoided it at all cost. And then when I finally did explore that curiosity, it gave me a strong foundation of security and who I am and who I want to be and what I'm working towards. Are you familiar with the author, Dr. Henry Cloud? Of course.

Yeah. I know Henry. So I started reading a lot of Dr. Henry Cloud's work when I was in Nashville, actually. Because when we were in Nashville, we left Texas during this point in the business where I was. was burnt out and people were coming into the business that I just wasn't happy in the direction it was going. So going to Nashville was partly me and my family just running away from what we didn't want to be a part of anymore.

Got to Nashville, found a church, legacy church of Nashville, with Pastor Lyle Phillips. And then meeting Lyle, he introduced me to Dr. Henry Cloud's work because he's out in Nashville. And I was reading a lot of his books. And I believe he has a background in psychology, but a strong foundation in his faith and his books reference his faith a lot. And his books helped me tremendously. And there's this one book he has. It's called trust. And he talks all about how everyone deserves to be forgiven, but not everyone deserves to be forgiven. But not everyone deserves to be trusted. And that helped me tremendously in my life where I felt like I was being burned by a lot of people

and openly being able to forgive them gave me this lightness to myself, which felt amazing. Yeah. That's the, and I would recommend anybody to read Dr. Cloud, and he's been a big impact on my life as well. I would say, even in your whole brand are the theme of one more. You know, they said to Jesus, Peter said, Lord, how often do I need to find? forgive somebody. He goes 70 times seven.

It's like go one more. Like 70 times seven. That's an eternal, he's basically giving an eternal perspective of letting people go and forgiving people. And same thing with go one more, go the second mile. Because if you try to let the first mile is the law, the second mile is love. You know, Jesus said everything changes in that second mile. Have you heard me talk about that?

the difference between the first and the second mile? No. So when Jesus said go the second mile, where the Roman law was the first mile, if I was a Roman soldier and you being a Jew and I'm occupying your country in the day, you would have, if I asked you to carry my bag of BPN products from your headquarters here to my house, you had to by law. If I was a Roman, you would be required. Now, Jesus said, don't stop at the first.

because in that first mile, he is in control. He's telling you what to do. And you're having to do what he's telling you what to do. Now he's contrasting, frankly, relationship versus religion. He says, but go the second mile. And then the second mile, now guess who the person is that has control. Now that Roman soldier, me saying, Nick, why are you, you could have stopped here at the red light.

And now you can say, well, let me tell you about a guy who carried my luggage. Let me tell you about somebody who carried my baggage. Let me tell you about somebody who carried my weight and carried my burdens and my sin all the way to a tree and was raised from the dead. See, now it shifts from having to to now getting to. So now most people live under that first mile. They don't go one more because now they're living. Everything's under the law. I've got to do this.

I've got to do that. Versus when you're under Christ and in the love of God, you're like, I get to do this. I am blessed with this life. And I have now, I'm not living under bondage. I'm living under freedom. And I think that's what you're saying is so true. It's that this life, this life that we can experience through love and through forgiveness and through grace. And frankly, just giving up on trying to live to people's expectations.

And then frankly, letting people go, they don't know what they're doing. Half the time they don't know what they're doing. They didn't wake up going, you know, today I want to ruin Nick's life. Most people are not thinking that way. I heard military, a general, four-star, talk about it. He goes, most soldiers don't wake up going, today I want to really mess up my commanding officer's life. They don't. And so we can't live with that victim mentality.

And I think that's where we have to take control. And that's where things shift in that second mile and realize, I've got to live to a higher voice. I don't live back to the ear, back to the eyes, back to who we're living to. If I'm living under him, it doesn't matter what people think about me, ultimately. There's another cool story about when Jesus talked about the rock and the sand. And probably everybody has heard this version of the story where you can either build your house on a foundation like a rock or like the sand. and we all know the shifting sands of opinions, the shifting sands of culture, people's personalities.

But when you build on the rock, he talks about this foundation, when the rains come, when the winds blow, and when all of a sudden it beats against the house, well, the rain message in the Bible is predominantly blessing. We think that that is all negative, when the rains and the winds begin to come. And rain, I've seen more people walk away in their season of blessing than I've seen them in their season of adversity.

Most people come back. Most people get back on their knees when things are falling apart. It's when things are going well. Now you've got options. You used to not have options. You used to not have a choice. You didn't have, hey, what house do we want to go to? Or do we want to take a trip?

And there is something about living with those, you know, Proper boundaries, proper, like a train, is only free to roll on the tracks. And one of those, frankly, is we can only roll as we're forgiving people and loving people and choosing not to be hateful or angry and trusting ultimately Christ. Going, God, you know. And I've seen it over so many years of our life, people that have come and gone 100 times. Or I've seen people leave us 25 years ago come back and like, hey, it's up. You know, it's great to be back.

And they didn't leave. They died what we call a cowboy death. They were shot and then they fell into the water and they got back up and fell off the top of the saloon and got back. They just didn't leave quietly. And then you just keep doing the right thing. And that's where it comes back to that original thought. We were talking about home. It's like, man, you keep doing the same thing right.

And then before you know it, you've got a legacy. Your kids don't want to leave you. The kids look to you. The kids trust you. They've trusted through all the seasons. They've just seen parents or they've seen a leader just not respond. And one of the things I've tried to do with our team,

and I said it to our staff yesterday in our staff day. And 23 years, and we have several that have been with us for 20-plus years. I said, I've never barked at any of you. Not one of you can say I've been mean to you. I've been forward with you. I've been strong with you. But I've never been ungodly with you.

you. And I think that's part of that legacy where people start to, frankly, relate in a long term. And that's where, frankly, we want to see our lives go where that faithfulness. It's hard to find faithful people. That's the hardest thing. So many of the things that we talk about that are intended to be around fitness and performance and training are also very applicable to. life as a whole. As you're talking about building this legacy by doing the right things on a regular basis, one of the things we've talked about these last few years, this quote of, it's better to be consistently good rather than occasionally great. And originally it was talked about in the context of marathon training with my coach, Jeff Cunningham, but it's so applicable to life where

if you are just consistently good and you choose the hard right over the easy wrong daily, that leads you to a life that when you're in your deathbed one day you can be proud of. That's right. The true legacy you're leaving. That's right. Same thing with parenting. It's not the Disney trips. It's not the highs.

It's the nighttime bed routine. It's the bedtime. baths. It's the, it's after the bath getting in bed to read a book. It's most of good parents do it in the boring. Like it's and but most people want to do this extreme like we're going to, you know, experience this trip or experience this purchase when most kids just want the boredom of the bedtime of mom and dad snuggling or cuddling or cuddling or wrestling. And so I've often said to parents, take out the highs and the lows. Just stay consistent.

And your kids will see the difference. And then they'll know over time. And that's the joy of now having a 32-year-old son, 28-year-old son and a 24-year-old son. And two of them worked for us. And I didn't ever want them to work for us. I didn't ever want them to be in the ministry. But two of them want to come back and work for us

and be a part of what we're doing. Connor leads to Austin Christian University now in Jackson and our student ministry. Mason, the oldest, works on Capitol Hill in the Senate, but they all want to be really close to us because we don't live extreme. I think there's something about that being consistently ordinary. How did you put it? Consistently good.

Yeah, just be good dads. Be a good dude. Don't be that guy that always has to come back and go, hey, I'm sorry. At some point, just stop. Not to say we don't have our failings, but let's eliminate those extreme needs of repentance, those extreme, I'm sorry, and we're hugging and kissing,

and I got to spend half the night apologizing for cussing or throwing a rock or something through the roof or punching somebody. Let's stop that. Let's start to breathe, just be good guys, good parents, how about a good marriage, you know? And then those kids are not graying, not being raised in our culture. Same thing with the marriage. Same thing with a

in your staff. It's like we don't walk in wondering what kind of leader are we going to get today? What kind of, I tell our team you're not going to deal with, I'm not going to be the guy that you're wondering, do I get what kind of Joe today? Is this Monday Joe who's not happy with number day? I don't live in the number. I try, I pay people to live in numbers. I don't worry about the numbers. That's just my, now I pay people to live in the numbers. But for me, I want weight. So God will not at the end of our lives. He won't count your success. He weighs your success. He doesn't count churches. He doesn't say, wow, that church has 10,000 people. That must be a really good church. No, he weighs it. I mean, let's face it, fat weighs less than muscle.

There are some people that look like they weigh a lot, or they may look like they're bigger than somebody that has more muscle. You put them on a scale, it's like, that dude's solid. He's not even he's six inches shorter than that guy. Well, the same thing in church world. There's churches that have 10,000 people, but they don't weigh 10 ounces in reality. They don't weigh 10 pounds in goodness, but they have 10,000 people.

Well, they have 10 pounds of relationship value. Or there are some churches that go to 100 people, and boy, they weigh 10,000 pounds. It's like there are some density. There's some, these people are solid. And I think we've got to make sure that we don't go the way Bigness is not always great. And we, the world thinks, if it's big, it's great.

That's not how the reality of life is. Some of the greatest soldiers you've been around, we're not the big guys. That's just the fact. And same thing with athletes. Just because they're big, doesn't mean they're great. Just because a company's big doesn't mean it's great. And because it's small doesn't mean it's not great.

Or that because it's small, it's little. No, that's the difference between smallness and littleness. And again, we've got to live to the eternal value, the principles that, frankly, at the end of it all, like you're asking, where does that piece come from? There are eternal principles and values that are measured according to heavenly ways and not earthly ways. As you're talking about raising your sons and minimizing or removing the extremes,

I think of stability, would you say that? that you were raised in a household of strength and stability, even though faith wasn't necessarily there. Yeah, 100%. I was, now, my mom and dad were typical post-World War II in that they enjoyed their life of daily bourbon and Coke or diet Coke or whatever their season of drink was. And so I would say for them, and I'm not throwing Roxanne,

but they used to say, Joe, you were born to be our bartender, right? So I did see that. I saw where the alcohol did affect their personal relationship and maybe their temperament. But boy, did I know that they love me. I knew that they were behind me and that I never questioned my parents and their value that they had on me. Now, did I question their value on each other? Yes. But yes, without faith, I saw so much.

biblical principles applied. And boy, they were disciplined. They were disciplined on me. They were in my world. They knew where I was at all times, even if I'd come home from college and just I'm coming home on a Friday and go back on a Sunday evening.

My parents, they needed to know where I was all weekend. Now, it would have probably been better if I'd just stayed at college because they didn't know where I was. But if I came home, they expect me to be home. And if I rolled in late, they were probably waiting up for me even when I was in college. And, of course, they'd get on to me for drinking. I'm like, y'all just put down a fifth.

What are you talking about? Anyway. But, you know, it's a difference between what we do and what you are supposed to do. Right. Yeah, but I was greatly loved and greatly led, great leaders. Both of them were great. They just struggled with that part of their life was, you know, that was just, that was so also. fundamental in the fabric of the generation after the war.

That was how they handled their PTSD. So it's okay. Pastor Joe, I appreciate it. The mentorship, the guidance, the home church of celebrations, extremely meaningful for my family, but also a lot of the people here at BPN. And there's a handful people here at BPN

who have come from celebration working in the ministry there. And that foundation of value and character is very important for me in this business and where we're heading and our mission and what we're doing. So I appreciate everything you're doing and the church is doing. So I appreciate the time today. Well, thanks for what you do and the impact that you're making in the lives of people that I know and then the city of Austin and around the world. And that's why people are drawn to even listening today.

and I'd say to anybody, and I want to say to you, thanks for giving me a chance for playing a part in your family's lives. And I would say to those that might be struggling in their own personal faith, man, give me a chance. Or maybe you're done with church. Give it a chance. There's some good people out there. There's reality out there.

And I would just, if even our little conversation today can just move somebody, even if they're a negative 10, if we can move them to a negative 9, it's great. it's frankly if we can all just figure out a way to help people and i hope maybe today um help somebody just move um one step one step more or go one more well i mean i didn't personally move from a negative 10 to a 10 overnight right it's a very slow i mean it was forward backwards forward backwards it was not linear by any means but yeah it's been a enduring a process for me personally what do you say to somebody that, I don't know, of course, I'm not interviewing you, but if somebody's

listening to this the first time when they say, why one more? What is that? Where did you get that from? What was the genesis of that? Well, it started on a training run in Texas in 2018, and I was supposed to run 18 miles that day. And I was in one of my first marathon preps. I got the mile 10, and my legs hurt. I was tired, and I just stopped running. I was downtown Austin on the trail. I started walking back to the house and Steph and I were running at the time. And as I was walking back, I'm thinking,

if I quit on this run, even though no one was watching me, if I quit on this run, what else will I quit on in my life? What does it say about me as an individual? So I walked back to where I stopped, finished the run, went one more mile,

ran 19 miles where I was supposed to run 18, came back to the house, wrote one more on the bill of my hat, took a photo of it, posted online and all these people went nuts and started writing one more on the bill of their hat and then posting it as well. So I thought, okay, I think I struck some sort of nerve in a lot of people. So it evolved into Go One More. And for the longest time, Go One More was just in action. Do one more mile. Do one more rep. One work one more hour towards your business. But only in the last

year has the meaning of Go on More evolved to me where it's actually not necessarily just an action anymore. It's an outcome. And when you apply, go on more to all aspects of your life, you unlock this clarity that allows you to achieve this greater potential, this happiness, is fulfillment. But it's because you do all those things. You show up consistently good rather than occasionally great. You don't accept the criticism and opinions of people whose opinions don't matter. You don't conform, but you transform. All of these things contribute to go one more to achieve this outcome. It's amazing.

And my dad would say, Joe, it's not practice that makes you better. It's perfect practice that makes you better. If we don't practice perfectly, if we're not attaining or if we're not willing to pay the price to practice more perfectly, you can forget winning championships. That's what I also hear out of that. Let's go, guys. Let's do that. Thanks for having me.

I appreciate it. Thank you.