The Nick Bare Podcast - 088: A Conversation With My Tattoo Artist, Andy Pho of Upside Tattoo

Episode Date: October 7, 2024

Today, I take a unique approach with this episode and sit down with my tattoo artist, Andy Pho of Upside Tattoo in Hutto, Texas. We chat through how Andy integrates mindfulness into his art through his 'High Frequency, Low Energy' approach, crafting a serene and customer-focused environment. Learn about his inspiring journey, from family heritage to profound experiences as a monk, and how these shape his unique tattooing philosophy. Andy shares insights on mastering his craft and the balance of art and communication, including the symbolic 'black shirt versus white shirt' styles in his work. Emphasizing effective communication and listening skills, he reveals how understanding clients' desires and precise questioning enhance the tattooing experience, leading to meaningful, high-quality results and enriching client relations.Chapters:00:00 A Surprising Tattoo Shop Experience01:36 Meet Andy: The Visionary Tattoo Artist02:05 Creating a Unique Tattoo Experience03:07 The Importance of Client Connection04:01 A Calm and Zen Tattoo Environment05:37 Personal Tattoo Stories and Reflections09:15 The Philosophy Behind Upside Tattoo12:08 High Frequency, Low Energy: Explained14:56 The Power of Solitude and Focus30:11 Andy’s Journey and Background47:17 Questioning Life's Purpose47:59 Seeking Answers as a Monk49:26 Balancing Life Choices50:37 Finding Meaning in Helping Others01:00:07 The Journey to Becoming an Artist01:16:29 The Importance of Effective Communication01:31:23 Concluding Thoughts and Future PlansStrength, endurance, and wellness supplements to fuel your performance. SAVE 10% at BPN Supps:https://bit.ly/nickbare10audioFollow:IG: instagram.com/nickbarefitness/YT: youtube.com/@nickbarefitnessKeep up with Andy:IG: https://www.instagram.com/andypho/?hl=en

Imagine walking into a building. All the walls are white. And there's this music playing in the background that is instrumental in Zen. It's loud enough to create this energy, but it's soft enough to have deep, meaningful conversation. There's incense burning, which you can smell throughout the entire place. There's people drawing and painting on murals and paper throughout. preparing for their work for the day. People are seated in a circle, doing breathwork,

and sharing moments of gratitude from that morning. Where do you imagine you're at right now? I guarantee it's not what it was for me. And that was a tattoo shop. A few months ago, I walked into Andy Foe's tattoo shop in Hutto, Texas, called Upside Tattoo. and I was completely mind-blown by the experience, unlike anything else I've ever witnessed or been a part of before.

And it was amazing. It's been remarkable what Andy has built, especially from a culture and community that follows historical trends and traditions. And today I want to share with you how Andy got to worry is today. So here is Andy Foe of upside tattoo, my personal tattoo artist. All right, today on the podcast, we have Andy Foe,

owner of Upside Tattoo. Recently did my latest tattoo. Yeah. And you're going to be doing some work on me here in the next couple of days or weeks. Yeah. Welcome to the show, man. Thank you, man.

Thanks for having me here. Coming right down the road, Hutto, Texas. It's a Round Rock. Is it in Round Rock? No, no. I'm coming down to Round Rock. Yeah, but your shop's in Hutto.

Yeah. So it's like 15 minutes from Hutto here. Yeah. easy. So to jump right in, I would love for you to kind of paint a picture for the audience, the listener, the viewer of what your shop experience is like because tattoo shops or from what most people expect or experience in a tattoo shop is pretty traditional and very similar from shop to shop.

But yours is very different. The experience is different. the look, the feel. Yeah. Could you paint a picture of what that experience is like, the intention behind building it, and what you want your client to feel when they're there? Yeah. I think that experience is even before you step into the door.

So me and you, we did a FaceTime call to really understand who you were, what you wanted to get so that I could make sure that we're on the same page. It's not just, what do you want? Here's a picture. Let me stick it on you. I want to be able to like really express who you are on the inside, on the outside. So that's the biggest thing with what we do is like it's client customer base first. And that's not common in a lot of tattooing.

You know, so for me, I've worked out of the spaces where like it's just a transaction. They're just there due to tattoo. There's no experience between the artist and the client. And sometimes you're a little bit skeptical or you're not sure of what you're getting yourself into. So Jasmine, who's our consultant, does a great job of just making sure that all the clients get their ideas passed on to the artist. About two weeks prior to the appointment, we do a creative call. And that's to just like really get to meet face to face for the first time before you walk into the door. And the reason why I think that's important is like, number one, you're permanently getting marked for the rest of your life.

And you don't know what you're getting into. There's a lot of nervousness. There's a lot of anxiety. And we want to like eliminate that days or weeks leading up to your appointment. so that when you come into your appointment, and I'll just set the scene you've been there before, Jasmine greets you, you take your shoes off, just kind of big bright white space, intentionally no artwork on the walls, lots of plants, lots of big open space. And the idea is to like just to help you feel the sense of like calm, this relaxation,

traditional tattoo shop, lots of different types of music, lots of different personalities, It's very loud. Again, just to relax that tension, that anxiety. And for the first 30 minutes, that's our settle in time. Jasmine offers you some tea. We get to meet. We get to talk about the design. And then at around 11 o'clock at the same time, all the artists, all the clients, we sit down in our gratitude circle. Do a little bit of breathwork. I lead the gratitude share. And that just gives everyone a chance to get to know each other because we're going to be sharing a full day, eight hours of tattooing together. And then after that, we all share our names, our gratitude.

And then we break from there. Everyone goes to their stations. The music is very calm. It's very zen. But that just allows us as the artist to just kind of keep this creative focus on the piece. And I've worked out of the shops where everyone's hijacking the music and the speakers and it's jumping from genre to genre. And then clients, they're relaxed.

Sometimes they're falling asleep. And it just allows it to be like an easier experience for us. the tattoo and also for you to get tattooed. So there's a lot less swelling, a lot less redness and bleeding. And it just ends up being for like a more calm, Zen experience. That's the best way that I can put it. I mean, my experience is absolutely incredible. My first tattoo ever, I was 18 years old. And I grew up in this small town next to Hershey, Pennsylvania called Paul Myra. We had like maybe three tattoo shops in the whole town. I walked in and I remember it was like corn playing blaring through speakers there was saw the movie saw playing right when you

walk in uh there's like traditional tattoo posters all over the place people cursing and yelling it was very intimidating yeah remember being 18 years old and the guy who owned the shop his name was bill and i described him the design that i wanted he went back into his office for about 10 minutes drew something up, showed it to me. And I remember looking at it thinking, this ain't it. It's not what I want. But I was so intimidated at this young,

18-year-old, no tattoos yet. This guy covered in tattoos. I said, looks great, let's do it. And he's tattooing me. He was my inner bicep, the one that I was just telling you, I did a bunch of removal one. And as I was getting this tattoo,

I'm thinking, I'm going to have to get this removed one day. I don't know why. I didn't say no in the beginning or why I committed to even getting it finished, but I was uncomfortable. I was intimidated. It wasn't a comfortable experience. It wasn't a good experience at all. There was no connection to the artist. And I just thought moving forward, most of my other tattoo sessions after that were similar to that experience until I walked into your shop. Completely different, man. I remember pulling up. And walking in, the first thing I did is it took off my shoes and put it on the rack.

And there was his instrumental music playing lightly on the speakers. And you're essentially in like a business park, almost like a warehouse, open concept office. Everything's white and bright. There's no TVs. There's no people yelling across the room. Very zen, as you said, very comfortable. And then we sat down on the floor and we looked at the designs. We made some modifications to it.

We had the session of gratitude and breath work. And then by the time we got to our station, which your station, you know, you don't sit in a chair, right? Like you're on the ground with me. We've made some adjustments, but that's what we were tattooing with at the time of you getting tattooed. Okay. Yeah. It was like low on the floor on these race platform. Yep.

Super comfortable. We had great conversation the entire time. I mean, I got tattooed for two days. straight. And then at 2 p.m. we broke. We all had had lunch together. And I love the fact that you could just kind of converse with all the artists, all the people getting tattooed that day. You felt connected. And I was listening to a recent podcast you did actually talking about, you know, having this piece, like this marking on you forever. And it's much more than, I look at the piece that you did much more than just ink on my skin. But

there's like a connection to the art, but there's also a connection to you as the artist. And I never had another connection to an artist with a piece that was put on me, but the experience with you and your shop is so unique that like I told everyone about it afterwards. It's like if you're getting a tattoo, you got to go to Andy because like it is unlike anything

I've ever experienced. And I was very impressed from like a, as a business owner, as a visionary, as an entrepreneur, you know, it's really easy to want to build a business based off a passion that just follows a traditional blueprint because you know it works. But to have the courage and curiosity to pursue something that is different and unknown and unexpected based off of your values, beliefs, your vision, that is very respectable, very, bold. It's risky, you know, but it has great potential. And from now, inside looking in, that's what you've done. And I'm impressed. I think it's amazing, man. Thank you. I appreciate all those words. There's been many moments where, like, I have, like, doubts. Like, is this a bit much? Is this crazy? And I realize, like, there's all different kinds of tattooing. There's all different

kinds of artists. And there's all different types of clients. Some people are looking for that tattoo shop where they walk in and it's high energy, saws playing and like, they want that. That's an experience they're looking for. They want that kind of adrenaline. Then there's other people that are seeking out something that is perhaps a little bit more calm. They want to be able to connect with an artist. They want to be able to feel relaxed. They want to be able to give their feedback and have it heard. I tend to lead more towards that. And it's because I've worked at several different shops. I have imagined this place of like, as an artist, as a client, what kind of space would I like to work in and what kind of space would I like to get tattooed in.

And it's not for everyone, but we attract the kinds of people who like it. And yeah, it's just been like this great, we've been open for about two years, this great time of like great positive reception for the people that come in and get to experience it. And it allows me to just like create from like a more calm, quieter place, which I've produced much more different work than I would. would have in a traditional environment of just like create the design, put it on and go. Create the design, put it on and go. And it doesn't allow me the time to connect with the client on a design basis and be able

to experiment and do something new. So I'm just happy to be able to like create this environment only for me, but to like have other artists be able to do that and share that with many other clients as well. We're not the most profiting tattoo shop where you can fit as many people as possible and turn them and go. But the value for me is in the relationship. and the experience and the designs that we get to create. But you're creating the best.

The goal is to create the best, not necessarily the biggest. Right. I think that's legacy. That's impact. That's movement. I heard you mentioned this before. And I thought this was really powerful, and I'd love for you to kind of explain it

and what it means to you. The goal was high frequency, low energy. Yeah. What does that mean? High frequency. as in like the types of people that get to walk into the space, the type of personality, the type of output and care and attention into what we're doing and who we are as like human beings. I hire first whoever works in the shop for personality, the skills will come.

You know, like you'll eventually be able to learn how to get good at what you do. But if your personality is not there and your work ethic is not there, like it's not high frequency. You know, that's like a low frequency. Someone that just does, is not, they're not wanting to be the best at what they do. I need people who care, you know, people who really want to like show up every day better for themselves and for the clients. Low energy. There's people still talking within the space, right? But like no one's overpowering each other. I've worked at spaces where like people are shouting across a room. And as you, the client, are trying to just manage the pain. and some areas are more bearable than others,

you want to be able to kind of stay in that flow state, that meditative state, where if you need to just kind of tune in and deal with the pain of your inner bicep, your rib or whatever the area is, you have that space where it's low energy. And there's music playing that we've created this playlist over the course of like two to three years, that there's some variation in it,

but it's in this kind of this cadence, this rhythm, where like it just kind of just carries you through the tattoo. too. It's not jumping from like Marilyn Manson to hip hop to instrumentals. Like I've had that happen. So yeah, just being able to have a space where you as a client can sit and not be distracted and pulled from your focus. And also as an artist too, it's like we can just be in this flow state and just create. So high frequency, low energy. Yeah. What I was really thinking about, I think a lot of people would hear low energy and think negative. It's like, oh, this person has low energy.

Low energy is unproductive. But the way that I take this and correct me if I'm wrong, high frequency, low energy, low energy is really controlled energy. Yes. Because when people have very high energy, I've been in situations where I hear something, I see something, I feel something, and it energizes me, and that energy creates a reaction.

That reaction is uncontrolled. and then I do things, say things, feel things that I might regret or that are out of my character. And it's controlling that energy and focusing that energy. That's the way I view low energy. Is it kind of the way you view it as well? Yeah, that's correct. And is that the goal with, I mean, one of the things I love about your shop is phones are off during the day. Is that one of the goals of creating this higher frequency, lower energy environment?

Yeah, so we're constantly stimulated all the time. It's also why like, we don't have a coffee machine in there. You know, like the idea is to just have people just come in relax. And we're always going to have the chaos of the world, the news. We have things that are going on. And like, we want to check our phones. And it's a moment for like retreat. It's a moment for solitude, for quiet to be able to just kind of like tune into that inner space that a lot of us don't really have, especially being an entrepreneur. We have a lot of entrepreneurs that come into the space. And like, there's a lot of there is that resistance when we send that welcome letter out. We send you a welcome letter so that you can be prepared to know that you're going to take your shoes off, wear your best socks, silence your cell phones. You're going to be the only one that's coming in, no plus ones. So to have that silence of your cell phone, there's a resistance there because people want to check in and know what's going on in the outside world. But when you come in, this is that moment that's for you. And I do feel like it is a meditative experience, this exchange of energy that we're creating together and I've had people just sit there and let me just kind of rewind it a little bit.

My feeling when I created the place, I wanted people to leave, look at the outside world and turn around and go, please, like, I want to come back in. I just experienced so much quiet, so much solitude, which I haven't had in my life. And coming into upside and not having their cell phones, that contributes to that energy. For most people, it's a little bit alarming in the beginning. They don't know how to deal with that because we're constantly unlocking our phones, check in social apps. But once they get used to that, I have clients that come back and they turn their phone off. They stowed away and they're like, I'm ready. I can't wait to just be here and just be with my thoughts, to be with myself, to be here with you. And I don't know,

it's just something that I've created upside with just feelings and ideas in mind. But as I like got to like shirt with clients like you, you help me articulate it a little. bit better. I mean, that's what I'm excited for for this next session is just the meditative state, the quietness, the solitude. One of my favorite authors is Cal Newport. His first book that I found was Deep Work that I read. And then I just read digital minimalism. And it talked about how addicted we are to our phones. We're constantly unlocking, swiping around, opening up certain apps, even though we're not necessarily looking for anything. We're just accustomed to that.

And I can imagine when someone's coming into your shop and they're told no phones, I'm sure a wave of anxiety comes over them of, well, how am I going to stay connected? Yeah. Well, we're already too connected. It's probably good to be a little less connected for at least a few hours. But Cal Newport talks about in digital minimalism, the power of solitude. and I like the way he positioned it where people think that solitude is

going and staying in a cabin by yourself for weeks no internet, no cable, no phone, no roads, nothing. And it can be. But really what solitude is, is a time, place, or space that is free from external thoughts,

opinions, and influence. And you had to spend some time in your own head, in your own thoughts. And if you can find a time, space, and place to have more of that solitude, it is so powerful. And for me, that's what I get from running. And that recharges me. I don't necessarily recharge around a lot of people, but I recharge by myself on my morning run in the morning before my kids are up, before my wife is up. And I need that to set my day up for success. Do you get that? Do you get that?

every day when you're at upside? Do you still get those moments of solitude? And is that why you've incorporated these concepts and methods? Yeah, absolutely. Like, I have two kids. I'm married. And my house is, like, it's chaos. And I love the chaos.

But my house looks nothing like upside. Like my art studio, art all over the walls. You know, we play different types of music. There's just a different energy there. But I created upside because, like, I wanted to be able to have that place where I say like upside, I feel like looks. like what I want up here to look like, you know? And to be able to just go in there, the no cell phone thing applies to me too, you know, and it's what I've experienced when I used to have notifications

on my iPad for my references and a notification will pop up and I'm tattooing. And there's something there that's disturbing to me. It's maybe a text message or there's a thought process that I have to do with, you know, something that's going on. And it takes me away and I just kind of break my chain of thought. It's not that I can't go back to the tattoo, but I'm not fully engaged with you during this tattoo session. So the no cell phone thing applies to me as well and to every other artist that's within the space. I really do enjoy being able to sit there with a client and connect. And some clients would rather just have moments of silence. And I'm okay with that too. If they want that, they can have that. And I can just sit there and be with my own thoughts within

that time and day. I mean, I fell asleep there in my mind. session. Yeah. Like for for a hot minute I was asleep. Some people say like, well, how can you do that? And some people think about like, well, how am I supposed to get through this pain? You know, like I need my cell phone. I need something. And I've shared this story before on another podcast. I had a client and he was getting his back tattooed. Five hours is a long time. But for me, my clients normally sit for eight to 10 hours a day. So up until the five hour mark, he was taking stretch breaks every 30 minutes, every hour. And I get at every person, every pain is different.

But he was watching a movie, switch for movie to an audiobook. I was trying to go on social media. And he was constantly fidgeting to find something to distract him from this pain that was never going to go away. Right? But he got tattooed for about six sessions. And then his last session, he came over to upside. And we told him about the no cell phone thing.

And he was like, well, I don't, you know, I need to have my phone on me. like how am I supposed to deal with this pain? I said, please just trust the process. Like, there is a meditative state that you get into of just being able to just breathe through the process. The same thing happens when you're running. And for him, he was able to sit for nine hours for that last session. And he was like, this was the best experience that I've had. Instead of running away from the pain trying to distract yourself from it, he accepted it. And then now he just kind of tuned into his breath, tuned into the music. And it allowed him to sit for much longer. I've only came up with that because like that was my experience.

I spent one time getting tattooed for seven days back to back. It was over the course of 43 hours over seven days. My brother did my hand, the left side, my chest, both sides of my neck. I've tried the music thing. I've tried, you know, audiobooks, but it was just being able to just sit there and just breathe and accept and not run away from what was happening. And then I just took that and just passed it along. And it's not that it takes away the pain of tattooing, but it's that moment of gratitude to just accept that today you're permanently going to mark yourself.

You're consciously making this decision. Accept it. Earn it. And it just ends up being a more pleasant experience. What that pleasant is is subjective to everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's something like some of the real significant there.

and I've heard you tell that story before. I thought that was really powerful because it made me think how we as people, when we are uncomfortable, we will search for distractions to remove us from those moments of discomfort when in reality we can gain so much more from that experience

if we just allow ourselves to be in it, feel and experience the discomfort, the pain, the suffering, whether it's a tattoo or it's a chapter or season of life. life. And there's a lot of people, and myself included, where we're going through a painful season, a painful chapter of life. And we don't want to feel an experience. So we find and create distractions or vices or other things that we can control to kind of remove ourselves from that. But what if we

we sit in it and what we feel it? And I think there's a lot of power. in absorbing that pain, that discomfort, you can grow so much more through it, as opposed to trying to find a distraction to remove yourself physically, emotionally, mentally from that situation. Yeah. We learn so much about ourselves through struggle, through pain. And I think that's one of the things about tattooing, which is so, like, interesting and unique. And I think it kind of is on part with, like, marathons.

People are like, why would you run a marathon? Like that's stupid. That's crazy. Like it doesn't like your legs are going to hurt. Whatever the thing is, why would you get a tattoo? Like that's so painful. That's crazy. Like how long do you have to sit there for? And I really think it is a marathon of sorts of like it's always going to be different. It's always going to be a challenge. But it's like, why are you willing to endure? And really, what are you going to learn about yourself through this experience? When we get a tattoo, there's always a reason behind it. And even if you think like, oh, I'm just going to go get a fun tattoo with my friends. Like, why would you be willing? to subject yourself to this pain to have something permanently marked on you. Like, what are you trying to say? What are you trying to do? What are you trying to experience? And for those who are going to voluntarily get a tattoo for, you know, a day, two days, four days back to back, it's a journey. It's a marathon of its own and you're going to learn a lot. And what I've discovered is like, what hurts is not necessarily the tattoo. What hurts more is what's in here. And that's the beautiful thing, like being able to, like, have the no cell phones and being able to connect with the client.

For some strange reason, we want to get this tattoo. And people have expressed tattoos like therapy. You get to talk to your artists about whatever's going on. But when I get to talk to clients on a deep level about whatever the tattoo means to you and all the stories that are connected to it, we don't even feel the tattoo anymore. That's just the cake to what's going on inside. Like, what's important to us? Like what does what does this tattoo mean? What do we go through?

What do we have to endure? What are we willing to endure? What do we want to memorialize on ourselves that we're willing to endure this kind of pain? It's such an interesting practice to get tattooed and endure for this long period of time. And guess what? We keep coming back for more. Yeah. For some reason.

And again, it's like marathons or whatever it is that you're familiar with that. It's like why we keep doing more? Like there's just something about who we are. what we're trying to do or experience, what we're trying to say through our actions. It's a strange and beautiful art. I really do enjoy it. Yeah, I've wanted a full sleeve for a long time now.

And I talk to people who don't have tattoos. And I tell them how I want this sleeve. And the response from some, not always, you know this is going to be on you forever, right? Yeah, I know that. I never really knew how to move past that part of the conversation. Because for me, I'm like, you just don't understand what I want or I'm trying to do. I heard you explain it on a podcast actually, and it's all made sense.

So it was the gentleman. He was older. He had a full body suit. And he didn't have his hands done, his face done, or his neck done yet, as you were describing. And he had you finish his entire body. And you did his face. And after you put the outline or stencil on his face, he looked at himself in the mirror.

And he said, this is how I always envisioned myself looking. And when I got this first piece done by you, the one thing Steph said to me and my wife, a few days after we were in bed, because she knew I loved this tattoo. I was looking at it all the time. She said, I can tell you feel more like your self with this tattoo.

I was like, yes, that is it. That is 100% it. And like so many people will hear that and they will not understand or connect. And that's okay. But for me, I feel so much more like myself with this ink of my body. Yeah. And I can't wait to finish the sleeve with you. Yeah.

It's like we're trying to say something, right? Like we want to express ourselves a little bit more. And like we have many ways of doing it. One is through a tattoo. It says so much about like whatever it is that we're getting. And it's just a time stamp at this particular period in your life. The great thing about tattoos is like it takes a long time, right? Like I've been getting tattooed for 13.

Oh no, since I was 16. So about 20 years or so, like two years. And it just takes a long time to get more and more. But each time you get tattooed, it's a different part of your life and you want to say something different. You want to keep evolving. You want to keep adding on to it. And like your old tattoo that you got later, that said something about who you were at that time.

You know, maybe just you weren't able to speak and say what you felt to that person. But as you evolve, you now make different choices about what you want, who you want to get tattooed by. And the goal, the mission has always been to like help people say or express who they are on the inside and the outside. The only way that I could have done that is just by really like paying attention and listening to the client. It's just so fun. I got to draw on you for like two days straight, you know, and that was just so much fun. Then we get to do it again in a few days. Well, even just watching you do it too blew my mind because you had this picture in front of you of the bear and the mountains and the trees.

And I'm kind of just watching your eyes go back to the image, to my arm, image the arm. And then, you know, as I look at the piece, it's so different and unique compared to my other piece. is because there's like there's no lines. It's all realistic. Yeah, it's all shading. No hard outlines. Except for the top because we blended that with the style that you had up there. Right.

So it belongs together. Yeah. So I'm so excited for this next piece, man. I can't even like I'm counting down the days. Let's go back a little bit before we move forward. I would love some like background context to where you are coming from, where you grew up, how you were raised. I want to know

like how how you got to where you are today in terms of like your mindset, your approach to business, your approach as an artist. Like what was young Andy like? There's so many layers. So I'll try to do it in a way that makes sense

and is fluid for conversation. My first time being exposed to art, I was four years old. My oldest sister was four years older. And I remember her coming home from school and she says, sit right there. And I said, okay, and she takes a piece of paper, and she's like with a pencil just doing this.

And I try to look. She goes, don't move. And she keeps drawing. She keeps drawing. And she turns it over. And there's a resemblance of me. I was like, whoa, that's so cool. You know, an eight-year-old drawing a picture of me like, they just blew my mind.

And I've always been into art. So I was that kid in school that was always extra alert and extra tentative in art classes. And I was always a kid that was like, wow, you do great artwork. And I was like, ah, you know, I just have fun doing it. But there's a thing with kids when you do art, everyone's an artist growing up, but it's when you start hearing the judgments about like your artwork looks good or it's not good and you either stop trying to be an artist in creating or you just keep doing it. I just kept doing it because I enjoy doing it. But throughout my life growing up, I've always kind of like went towards art and I pulled away. I went towards art and I pulled away.

And for just many different reasons. You know, my parents were immigrants from Cambodia. They fled the Khmer Rouge, the genocide in Cambodia in the 70s. So they came here with an opportunity to, you know, raise a family and my dad was an entrepreneur. Open donut shops, clothing factories. And I just remember being four or five years old in his clothing factory in Manhattan in New York, just kind of sleeping and being pushed around in, you know, giant clothing carts. And I've helped him, you know, carry rolls of fabrics, you know, to his van and stuff.

But my dad also tried different things, rubber importing and exporting, doing hair accessories. and eventually I used to say he was a failed entrepreneur. Just all those different businesses didn't work out and he didn't stick with it to the end of his career. But he ended up being a building foreman in Manhattan working Monday through Fridays, 4 to midnight, and being able to spend time with us on the weekends. I got to see two sides of him.

One side of him that was like learning how to talk to people and be social, regardless of what was happening at home, being angry, frustrated, knocking on the door, or showing up to business or showing up to work and being all there. And then also being a family man of just like, I just want to work and spend time with you guys on the weekend. And I valued both of those things. I also wanted more money growing up and we didn't have it.

So whenever I would ask my dad about work, he said, don't worry about work. Just focus on school. Try to be a doctor, a lawyer engineer. And my sister is an engineer. She has degrees in mechanical, electrical, and nuclear. She loves her job. And I was like, I want to love my job too.

So I went to NYIT for electrical engineering. Were you the youngest sibling? I'm my family. The amount of kids, we have seven. But I grew up with two sisters. Okay. Eventually I had another sister that popped up from a different marriage. So I'm the third youngest, or the third from the oldest.

So I went to try to be an electrical engineer. But I had no idea what an engineer was. So I dropped out of school. went for graphic design, and it was there that my art was like, re-ignited. I had some amazing art professors who just encouraged me, like, do something with this. And my dad, when I was 16, was involved in a homicide robbery. We're in Brooklyn, 3 p.m., and he was on the way after my 16th birthday to get cash from the bank. We were waiting for him to come home.

We're playing handball in the alleyway of our building, and it just kind of rolls towards the street. And that's how we come home. The gates are normally locked, but sometimes homeless people sleep there or they piss there. And I just see a man kind of rolling on the floor with bags and groceries around him. We go to find out who that person is and it's my dad. His wallet ripped out of his pocket. His head is split open. We call 911.

He's in a coma for four days and he passes away. It's an unsolved robbery and unsolved murder. They find a suspect, but, you know, it's, it's. It's not clear who did it. Through that, I met my brother and some other siblings, and my brother, Robert, has been tattooing since he was in prison at the age of 17 or 18. He's been tattooing since I was one years old. I'm 35 now.

But it was when I was in college on a lunch break from work that I saw two friends who were talking about the tattoos and showing the tattoos that they did in each other. And it wasn't good. But I asked my cousin who was there, I said, hey, would you let me tattoo you? He said, only if you got good. So I took that as a challenge, but I also took that as like an opportunity to inquire with my brother.

I said, hey, what advice would you have if I wanted to tattoo? He said, if you moved to Las Vegas, I'll teach you. Is that where he was living? Yeah. Okay. So that was me at 22, really curious. And I went to go see what it was like for him opening and owning a tattoo shop. He was in black and gray realism, like what you have on there.

And it was just large scale, realistic work. Clients were flying all over to get full sleeves, back pieces, designs all over the wall. And I didn't know tattooing was like that. My tattoo idea was the experience that you had. Loud shop, flash art everywhere. That wasn't the case. So I knew I wanted to tattoo because I would just draw on people every day for a living. And I moved to Las Vegas.

And then as they said, like the rest is history. I don't work anymore. You know, I get to like drawn people. But throughout that time, there were a lot of ups and downs. And there was moments that I wanted to quit because I did a bad tattoo. But on the other side of that bad tattoo was I really want to keep doing this. And I just kept pushing and I persevered. I ended up like traveling more for conventions, winning awards.

And just being at a place of like now clients are coming to me for the type of work that I wanted to do instead of just having to do anything and everything. It wasn't until 2020 COVID happened and a lot of people were dying, you know, businesses were closing. We weren't sure. And it was the first time that I've really had like two weeks off of work with no work. And I was used to working like five, six, seven days a week. And I was spending time with my daughter at home working maybe like two days a week. You know, some clients still wanted to get tattooed and I would do it for them.

I'd take a week off and I'd work for like three days a week. And I was like, man, like this gives me a different pace of life. I wasn't used to that. You're still in Vegas at the time? I was still in Vegas. And I really wanted to like have this time to spend with my family, to work on my art, to tattoo, find this balance that I was looking for that I didn't have. And it was during that time that I ended up speaking to my brother because we've had, we have differences in personal and business philosophies. but I ended up having the conversation that I wanted to part ways and do something different.

I wanted to do something on my own. And I didn't know what that was. I didn't have a plan, but he wasn't happy with that. So we parted ways. And I ended up moving back to New York for the rest of 2020 to kind of figure out where do I want to go from here. What do I want to do? And I knew I wanted to open a shop, but I didn't know where and what. Well, everyone was running away from New York.

You ran to New York. Because that's where I grew up. Yeah. That's where my family was. So I was like, let me. have my daughter spend time with her cousins, with her uncles, with her aunts, with her grandparents. And me and my wife were like, let's list all the major cities in the U.S. And let's start figuring out where we want to live.

Her parents said, have you thought of Texas? And we're like, no, what's in Texas? She has a cousin in Houston. I've been to Dallas for some tattoo conventions and she knows of Austin for the music scene. My first day out here, I'm stand up paddleboarding on Lady Bird Lake. I was like, this is awesome. Yeah, that'll get you. It's the right amount of nature and city.

And once I came out here, we bought our house the following year. And just I wanted a shop as close as possible to my house. So upsides in huddo, which is like a six mile drive. And from there, we just decided this is where we're going to open. And the idea, the vision changed over time. It was more like a private studio space with the traditional TV, everything. You know, like a little bit more traditional. But over time, as I was like starting to build it out, I was like, I don't want to have that kind of experience.

Like, I started to have the question, what would I like to get tattooed in? What would I like to work? It's not normal. This is kind of bit weird. But as I started to like talk to my wife and some of the artists that were working with me at the time, they were just really encouraging of it. So that just gave me the support group to just go like, this shit is different. But I'm going to do it. and as clients start to come in,

especially my clients who have traveled with me, the other shops, they're like, this is new, but I kind of like it. And as more and more people kind of liked it, it gave me that reassurance of like, we're on the right path,

and I'm going to keep doing this. I want to go back a little bit, horrible to hear what happened to your father in New York. With him being the provider of the family, how did that shift the trajectory of your life and your family's life after he passed away? Yeah, so that was when I was 16 and my mom got some sort of insurance money to hold it's over for a little bit. But I realized I needed to work at some point. I couldn't just depend on my mom.

I didn't want to be that extra burden. So at the age of 17, I started to work. First shop was working at Subway as a sandwich artist and I worked there. And I've always had work ethic because I learned that from my dad. Like, don't show up late. Be there. And if you're there, like, really be there. You know, like, don't just like half-ass, whatever it is that you're doing.

And within my first month at 17, I was like assistant manager of this store. And I was like, that's weird. Like, I'm managing a store with employees that are older than me. But I learned from my first boss, my first owner there was like, it's not about age. It's about like your ability to do the job. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, so I guess I'm going to be here. As soon as I turned 18, I worked clothing retail.

And just everything that I did, I was the best at that working stock, cashier, working my way up to manager position. And I was like, I was going to climb wherever I went. Like, that was just my work ethic. But I was also working with people that didn't like what they were doing. So I was just constantly searching for like, what could I do for the rest of my life that I would love doing? And that led me to the engineering path. That led me to end up being a tattoo artist. artist. I talked to our team here a lot about that type of work ethic where in certain industries

or jobs or companies, wherever you get started, you typically have to start in a position that might not be your dream position. But the way that you move up in a company or the way that you achieve your dream position one day, your dream job, is you become a master of what you're currently doing. The job you're doing right now, you might not love, but you got to act like you love it. You got to put every ounce of effort into it because if you do that, you will then be taken care of. You'll be recognized. You'll be rewarded. You will get more opportunities and you will grow.

But so many people start a job and they say, my goal is to get to X, Y, and C position. What is a bare minimum I have to do to get there? Well, just asking that question already shows that you're not committed to dedicate in a time an energy to grow in that role. So you're never going to get there. Just own that role. Be the best of what you do. And it's like the best approach you can take to work.

You're not committed to yourself if you don't give your best. Like you have to do the job anyways. You have to be there. And you may not like it. But if like if that's where you are, wherever you are in your life, whatever thing that you're doing, like do the best that you can at that. If not like you don't respect yourself. You have that time and energy dedicated to that space.

Be the best at that. And it's the analogy of how you do anything is how you do everything. If you're going to, I'll use tattooing and cleaning, for example. Like if you're going to half-ass mop the floor and I can see it when apprentices come in and they start mopping, you're going to have a hard time packing in solid black, which is going to give you a hard time doing the great job that you really want to do. So put the care and attention, wax on, wax off, and have a really great result in my mind. mopping the floor, have a really great job stocking the supplies, whatever it is that you're doing, so that when it comes time to do the little details within tattooing, you're going to be great at it.

Another example is like driving. Like everyone sucks at the beginning when they're driving, but it's like, are you mindful enough to use a turn signal instead of like the wiper and washer signal? Are you going to turn smoothly? And if you can pay attention to what you're doing at that time, you're going to incrementally get better at it. you're going to have to do that task anyways. But it rolls over into like tattooing or running. If you can fine tune all the little things and be great at that,

that's how you do everything. Like you're going to get better at it. But just some people, they either don't care or that wasn't instilled in them yet. So I try to give people I work with and just people in general, the benefit of the doubt is like, oh, you don't know how to care right now. You weren't taught.

You weren't shown how. I'm very fortunate to like have a father who like, made sure to like, I don't think he intentionally taught me those things, but he just did it in a way that like I just picked up on it. He showed you. Yeah, he just showed me. So it's in me now to like want to show other people how to like care about whatever it is that they're doing.

It makes me think about the military. When I joined the army, you know, a lot of people that I joined with, the goal was to be Ranger Regiment or special forces. And everyone wants to go from just enlisting, enlisting or just. commissioning day one to wanting to be special forces at one point. And you ask, how do you get there? And what makes those guys different? What makes the operators, the special forces, Ranger Regiment, so much better and different from just conventional force army? And it's that they have mastered skill level one stuff, the basics. They have mastered the basics where they

don't even have to think or try anymore because they've done so many repetitions. They've mastered that. Now they can practice the big, sexy, bold operations that ever wants to do. But you never get to those big, sexy operational movements if you don't master the basics. You master the basics, then you move forward. 100%. So from my understanding, you spent some time as a monk. Yeah. Can you talk about that experience?

Yeah. In Southeast Asian culture, when your parent or a loved one passes away, you have an opportunity to go be a monk. What that means is you shave your head, you shave your eyebrows, and you spend time in a monastery. That's just out of tradition. So when my dad passed away, I did that and my mom shaved her head. And it was an opportunity for me for four days to contemplate life, to have some questions. quiet time, some solitude, and think about my dad's life, how he's impacted me. And it was just there out of like tradition. I did learn to like meditate a bit. I did learn some sutras, but I left there and went back into, you know, sophomore year of school of high school with no hair. And I was just like, cool, I'm just going to go back out into the world. Didn't think much of it. The following year,

went to Cambodia, was a monk for like half a day. And that was so that I could be a monk. during this blessing ceremony that my mom was doing for the village at the time. Again, just out of respect for my mom and the village, I did that. But it wasn't until 2014. I was already three years into tattooing. I was kind of going through an existential crisis. I was living in like what we called the mini mansion. And it was just this giant house with four other people that was working at the shop that I was at.

They couldn't pay rent. I was paying rent. And I was working six, seven days a week. And I was just like, is this what I'm here to do just to like work and make money and pay for nice things and not get to have any purpose, not to like enjoy life? Like, what happens when I die? Like, does any of the shit matter? You know, why do we lie incense? And I just start to think about like all the traditional things I was growing up in.

It's like, why do we lie incense? Why do we pray? What are the monks chanting? Why are they wearing orange ropes? I just had all these questions. And I was asking about God. I was just like, I didn't know. my place in the universe. So I asked my mom, I said, hey, is it okay if I go be a monk again?

And she was like, what did you do? Because either somebody died or you did something bad and you were going to like repent or pay for your karma or whatever the thing was. I said, no, I just want to like ask questions. So I went in as a skeptic. I stayed in the Bronx and there was a monk there who spoke English. And I voluntarily chose to go for nine days. It was during like two weeks of like Christmas and New Year break. And I was there to just. like ask all the questions. Why do all the Buddhists look different? Why does he have snakes on them? What happens when you die? Why do you meditate? What is meditating good for? What's a sutura? Why do you wear orange? I was just asking all these questions. And any given time you'd walk into

my room, I had all these books open and I was just reading and cross-referencing things on the internet. And I was just trying to understand like, why do any of this? Like, why live life? And what I learned the general grasp of it is just there's always life is full of suffering. But how do you manage that suffering? How do you learn how to deal with it? And understanding that everyone has suffering too, how can you help other people alleviate that suffering? And when I thought about that and I understood it, I was like, oh, by day seven, I can stay here and be a monk too. I can be a monk for the rest of my life and help people realize this. But not many people are coming to this monastery in the Bronx. And I don't think I'm going to reach a lot of people.

I was still tattoo in about three years. I was with my girlfriend, who's now my wife. I was with her for eight years. And she just moved to Las Vegas, quit her job, left her family to be with me. And here I am being a monk. And I was like, I was on this fork in the road. Do I stay here and be a monk? Or do I leave and become the best tattoo artist and marry this woman?

I chose that option. So I left and since then that was 2014, I've just constantly been on this path of like trying to understand like the suffering that I'm going through, there's pain, there's suffering, right? There's always going to be some sort of painful event in your life. But how much suffering that we have to endure through it is up to us. We can just accept it as is or we can add the additional weight of the mental suffering of the event. And then with that, I just kind of learn how to like meditate and learn how to learn how to. to respond rather than react to whatever the situation is. And then in turn, now I've always been in a position of like training, helping people, coaching people, mentoring people, that I found

my life purpose to just be that. It was just like, if I'm going to be here on this earth, instead of just going out to commit suicide because that was a thought at some point, like, why be here? Why do any of this? I'm going to be here and just help alleviate the suffering of some people. And through that is just by like being a good person, just trying to in a good light and just helping someone who's going through a dark time. Have I thought about being a monk again? Yeah, I go through my hermit states. I just made a video about that this morning. Like there's sometimes I just want to be alone. I don't want to have to be out in the world and be with people.

But the other side of me is just like, oh, like there are a lot of people who are really going through it. So just be out there and while you're here, just be a guiding light, be a support for people. And that keeps me on like a path of just like being here, spending my time here earth and just like, you know, spreading some positivity, spending some good energy. How do you go just be a monk? Just go knocking the door and say, I want to join you? How does that process work? Yeah. So I guess depending on the monastery. And there's also like different types of monasteries, different types of monks. In the Cambodian culture that I grew up in for Taravada Buddhism,

you can go and you say, hey, I want to go be a monk for X amount of time. be there for a week, a month, a year. And if they have the space and the energy, then yeah, then you can go stay there and be there with them. And yeah, it's up to you how long you want to go do that. I was just listening this podcast last week. It was a Tim Ferriss podcast, and it was with Arthur Brooks, who's a social scientist and teaches a very popular course at Harvard on happiness. He's an author. He's a speaker. I'm a big, fan a lot of his work. And they were discussing the topic of having happiness in life and how so many people are unhappy. And to truly be happy to have happiness, you need meaning in life and know your

meaning. And for a lot of people, it's like, well, what is my meaning? What does that mean? And I thought it was very interesting. He positioned that there's two questions to discover your meaning. The first is, why are you here? And the second is, what are you willing to die for? A lot of people will think that second question is, what am I willing to kill for? So, I'm willing to kill for my family. I'm willing to kill for my faith. I'm willing to kill for my friends and this country. No, not what are you willing to kill for? What would you die for tomorrow? Me and my wife were going to dinner two days ago. We were discussing this question. Like, what are you, like, what would you die for tomorrow? Would you die for your kids? Would you die for your family?

Would you die for your country? Would you die to protect your faith? Like, do you believe in your faith that much? You would die tomorrow. If God said, hey, if you truly believe in me, I'm going to take your life tomorrow. Would you accept that? I thought those two questions were so interesting to discover what is your meaning? because if you don't have meaning, or at least a meaningful mission and purpose, then you end up questioning, why am I here?

What am I doing? What's the reason to continue moving forward? It's not just for fun and money and things and materials. It's a deeper purpose. Do you question that often still? No, not anymore. I've always asked a question, like, what's the goal worth achieving?

In the beginning, sometimes it's that superficial level of like, I want to reach this level of my career. I want to make this kind of money. I want to have this kind of lifestyle. And you realize, like, once you achieve all those things, like, you're not necessarily going to be happy. You know, it's maybe not a goal worth achieving. I think Simon Sinek had, I saw one of his reels this morning about, like, purpose and goals. Like, you cannot achieve your purpose. You can achieve a goal.

But a purpose is something that, like, you live for. And I like what you said. Like, what would you be willing to die for? Like, tomorrow, like, what is that thing? And when you realize what you're willing to die for, then you end up coming to a place of like, well, now that I'm here, like, how do I live for that? So if you're willing to die for your kids, then live and be a great example for them. You know, don't be a piece of shit drinking your life away and, like, not having anything

to, like, a better way to show them. Like be an example of what you want them to be. If it's, you know, being able to be out there and like help people in whatever capacity that means to you, like, now be that person. No, it hasn't been a question anymore. And I've just surrounded myself with people who are just like, like you, who are just constantly like finding that legacy. I love that video that you made about it. And like, that just resonated so heavily because like it's more than just the things that. that you leave behind. It's like, what can you leave? Like, how can you teach? How can you be an

example for everyone else that's around you? I don't know. It's been pretty simple for me, like, once I figured out, like, it's just about helping people. And that's, like, always been, like, the biggest goal worth achieving. No matter what it is that I could, like, figure the goal or the purpose was, if it comes to me helping somebody, then it ends up being worth it. Yeah. I ain't think the best place for a lot of people to get started. That's helped me a lot is what is that I want to accomplish in my life and why, but also what is the opportunity cost that comes with chasing that accomplishment? And sometimes when you weigh the opportunity cost, that accomplishment actually doesn't have

meaning any longer. Do I want to make this much money? Does that, does money actually mean any? anything. Maybe they may not, depending on the person, but what are you willing to sacrifice to get there? Are you going to have to sacrifice time with your friends and family? You have to sacrifice time devoting to your faith or just being able to have some moments of solitude to yourself. And if we chase these things, whether milestones, goals, materialistic, money, whatever it is, and we're not weighing the opportunity costs or the sacrifices we have to make

to get there, we might miss out on a lot of life along the way. And our meaning just kind of falls by the wayside. Yeah. To kind of reflect on what I was sharing about my dad earlier, like I saw two sides of him, right? He was willing to sacrifice time away from family or like heavily invested into his business. And I didn't feel like he was necessarily fulfilled. You know, some of his goals didn't work out. But where I saw him perhaps happiest or perhaps where I saw him the most happiest was when he was just working a Monday through Friday job and he was able to spend that time like actively with us on the weekend. So would he have liked to have made more money? Absolutely.

Like I think everyone would love to do that. But it's just finding that cost. And he's not around. So like I question that. Like, what was you really thinking? What was you really feeling? And like, I try to take bits of what I can grasp and, like, apply that now as a father who's opening a tattoo shop, still trying to find time for drawing and for fitness.

And it's like, how do I mix all those things? My family fitness, finance, and my faith all together. And if I can get my family into the fitness part, if I can get my business to interact with the finance and if my faith can coexist within here, then I can do a lot more of those things than I think I can. And I stopped asking for more. My theme this year has been to do more with less. And that gives me the ability to like really focus on the few things that I have going on.

And then when I find the capacity that I can do more, then great, I'll do that. I think we had the conversation about like marathons and like I have to be very careful to like want to say yes and sign up for the next marathon because I know I want to do it. I know I want to challenge myself and I'm going to learn through it. But the moment I say yes to it, it's going to take time away from like all. these other fields that I'm not ready to to give up some of that time just yet. But if I can like run with my son in the stroller for a bit, that's worth it for me. Yeah. You just can't keep adding on to your workload because it reduces your bandwidth on all the other things you're working on. I used to think that I could just keep stacking on top. I would overcommit.

Yes, I'll say yes to this. I'm going to remove all my boundaries. I'll be there. I'll have this call. I'll be a part of this meeting. I'll work on this project. Commit, commit, commit, commit. And before you know it, you're overcommitted. And you're not actually focused on anything. And even when you're there with the people, with your family, you're not actually there. You're thinking about all the other things you've committed to and trying to manage. So I'm a massive fan of doing more with less and simplifying, simplifying. One of the things we talked about actually, as were tattooing me last time, was that there was a point where you finally accepted yourself as an artist. Can you talk about that where even as a tattoo artist for a long time for years,

you didn't view yourself as an artist? And then once you finally did, it really shifted your approach and perspective to your work. Yeah. The career, what's your occupation, right? When they I actually want a forum. Tattoo artists. I would write tattooer or tattooist because it was just more like a technical ability. I feel like anybody can learn how to tattoo. Like I can teach you how to like see something, identify how dark, how light, how detail to make it. And there's a skill like driving that you can learn how to tattoo. I didn't feel like there was anything like artistic about what I was doing of just taking a photo and rendering it as precisely as possible. My idea of an artist was somebody who I would think as a visionary and they can like close your eyes and think about something and like just

draw it from their mind. And I was like, that's a tattoo artist that I wanted to be. So that was a goal that I was striving towards was to be that kind of tattoo artist. But my career was being successful and being a great tattooist. I would just be able to copy things and do a really great job at that. And as much as other people were telling me, man, you're a great artist. I was like, no, I'm just a technician. I'm just a tattooist. It wasn't until I spent some time understanding being around other people that I thought were artists, that it's not this magic or this thing that you're born with. You just have this vision and draw. These people have spent hours, thousands, 10,000 of hours, drawing and studying particular subject matter or style where, like, now they can draw it from experience. And once I understood that, it took the magic away and I was like, oh, I can also learn how to do that. And now what I thought was this ethereal thing that was very hard to achieve or you had to be born into it. I saw myself as having the skill set and the ability needed to be an artist.

So then I started to actually let me go back a little bit. I realized that I was running away from art. 2021, I got into like a running streak. And like it was so much easier for me to run 50Ks. I ran like 550Ks that year. I was ready to look into Leadville. I was looking up videos. That's how I found you through like Leadville videos.

I was starting to look up people who were running across the U.S. And that to me was so much more enjoyable. It was so much more of an easier feat than to actually sit there and like look at a blank canvas or a blank paper and like try to be a beginner and like start to draw and practice some new things. It wasn't until I was with another friend of tattoo artist and he was going to run his first 50K with me. I was like, don't worry, this is easy. We'll just pace ourselves. Zone 2. We've got this.

And when I said that, I was like, why am I going to do the next easy thing? 50K is not the easiest thing, but I knew how to do it. There was a formula for it. But I was like, hey, Mark, what if we just spent that time like painting instead? And we're tattoo artists. We've tattooed for eight to 16 hours. a day, but we've never painted for like eight hours. And it was like, I've never painted that long before.

I was like, me neither. Do you want to go do that? It was like, yeah. So that was our marathon. We woke up at four in the morning, met at my house, me and two others, and we were just painting for like eight hours. And by the time we were done, we're like, holy shit. Like we just did this like this new thing, this challenge for us.

And that set me on the path of like, all right, I can run two to three hours every morning or I can practice my art for two to three hours every day. and it was in the daily process, in the daily steps of like waking up at the same time 5 a.m. and drawing that I was like, oh, this is what it means to be an artist. I have to actually sit there every day and put in the work. So it was 2021 that I just flipped that title, that occupation from tattooist tattoo or to, I'm an artist. Like it's the person who's willing to commit themselves to the craft of art and progress every day,

that that's what makes me an artist now. It was like such an easy, it wasn't easy. Simple. It was a simple change that I had to do, but it was very difficult for me to grasp that concept. And once I realized I was literally running from my art, I was like, let me now focus on this. I was now an artist. I was able to tell myself that and feel confident about it. I didn't need anyone else to tell me.

One of the things I've been talking a lot about over this last year plus is the fact that we have. to endure the process to see the result and the success. I actually heard you talk about this before, where once you were focused on the result and the final outcome, when it comes to a tattoo or a piece of art, like, how do I just get this thing done? And then shifting that mindset and perspective to, let me actually just focus on the process.

And I know you were working on that, that was an oil painting of your father. And every morning, you just add a little bit more to it. I think you worked on it for months at a time. But it wasn't like, hey, I'm going to finish this piece by tomorrow. I'm just going to enjoy this process and invest time and energy into this process and see where it goes. How powerful was even that shift of perspective after one, making the change of and realizing, hey, I am an artist.

I'm accepting that. I'm committing to that. and then I'm shifting my perspective from, I'm just going to finish this piece to I'm going to respect and endure the process. How did that change your work? Yeah. Well, even with the painting,

I didn't think I had time to paint. And I was still drawing. I was doing anatomy drawings, perspective. I was like doing all the things that were going to help me become a better drawer. I wasn't like focused on being a painter. But I learned that there was another artist that was he created this big, beautiful painting, and he was like, look, guys, I just did this every day for like 50 minutes.

And it's just 50 minutes before tattooing that I was able to get this done. Just chip away at it and it's going to happen. And I was like, whoa, simple process that you can set up in your day. It doesn't require a lot of time or bandwidth. I'm going to do just that. So there was a period of time in the beginning where I was like, there's a lot of like groundwork that you have to lay to start a big painting. But once I got that groundwork done, it took me about nine months to finish it.

And some days were like 15 minutes before a client comes in. Maybe I get 30 minutes or if I come into work early, I can spend about an hour on there. But it was this dedicated time and process that allowed me to do something that seems so impossible. But it's just setting the place for it at upside with this panel and setting the time for it, minimum 15 minutes. If you can go an hour or more, great. And the thing with art, though, I did have to set a time on it. Because like a tattoo or like a painting, I can spend eight hours on it or I can spend 80. The more time I spend on it, not necessarily that it's going to get better, but we can just keep finessing it and see what happens.

I was going to go to New York, May of this year. And my dad, it was his 20th anniversary of passing. So I wanted to finish it before I went back to New York. So I said, you know what? I'll keep working on it every morning that I'm at upside. And whatever it's like, it was already at a pretty good state, but I was just like, just tweaking it, tweaking it. And once we reached this date before I go to New York, we're going to call it done.

And I was able to like put the final marks on it. And I stepped away. And I was like, we finished. This monumental task of creating this painting that I thought was so difficult. and I did three iterations of it. Felt like a failure. Felt like it wasn't right. But I got to a point where I was like,

this is going to be the painting that I'm going to hang on the wall and now sits in my art studio, this beautiful like 18 by 24 painting of my dad that like is a concert reminder of all the lessons that I've learned over time. It was only because I set that process in place and truly enjoyed it along the way.

There were some days where like I didn't, but the process doing it, you find the enjoyment within it. How do you know when a tattoo's done? I mean, could you work on a tattoo for endless amounts of time and just tinkering on it? We could. The line within tattooing is like when a client taps out or when they run out of money. It's one of those two things.

But we always want to find like that middle ground, which is like I can typically do a forearm piece in about eight hours. And it's like knowing that time frame, you try. try to find something that like tattoos age and they change over time. So like you can't put too much detail. Granted, it has a lot of detail. But if you add too much within a small area, it may not even heal well or it's not going to age well over time. Like we can literally overwork the skin and the details will fall out. So we have a time constraint of being able to tattoo a certain amount of time or a certain amount of passes over an area that like as a skilled

artists, we have to know when to like stop because if you go too much, you're just going to damage the skin. Painting is kind of like that where like there is a limit to like how much you can paint because then it's just too wet and you have to leave it, let it dry. So it really is just knowing like how well the client skin can hold up to be able to take more ink and take more detail in there. So with some of my older tattoos, you know, I've gone into a shop and I've had like either a reference design or I've known exactly what it's going to look like. And I didn't know the artist. I wasn't familiar with their work necessarily.

So I was like, I want just this. Like just stay within these lines. And then there's different experiences like with you, for example, where I had this concept and I just had all the trust in you that it was going to turn out absolutely amazing and perfect. And that's like the approach I'm taking with this next. piece, like, I know whatever you do, it's going to be great with the concept that we have. And I've heard you explain your black shirt versus white shirt approach to this. And I thought

that was absolutely interesting. Can you explain the black shirt versus white shirt? Yeah. Black shirt, white shirt really comes down to like apparel. So there was a period of time, and I think this is just like tattoo artist apparel. I used to just wear all black. And it's just practical. I also just liked wearing it. My wardrobe looked like Bruce Wayne. all the laundry that we were doing for the family, I knew which one was mine. I applied out. It was just all black shirts. There was a period of time where I experimented with psychedelics. And I had this big experience in the ceremonial setting.

And I processed through some of my old experiences with my mom, with my dad. I was just going through all these judgments about my artwork. And I was wearing all black during this experience, the psychedelic experience I was having. And I just started to take off my sweater and I was given a white blanket just because I was like kind of cold that experience. And I just covered myself up. I didn't want to see anything that was black on me. It was just a feeling that I had. And while I was there, I covered myself and I went under and what I imagined what I saw during this experience was me sitting in the middle of this room, dark.

there was just a spotlight on me. And I got to just sit there. And as I was sitting there, I was just like thinking about all the experiences that I've had of like, my artwork wasn't good. You can't draw. And I just started to like remove those voices that you can't make a living through art. And I knew that wasn't true because there was a tattoo artist for a while. But it was like, your drawings are no good. And I was just like, where are all these thoughts and these feelings coming from. And as I started to remove them from my parents or some friends or whatever it was at the time, when I was ready, I lifted the blanket off and I couldn't see anything. It was just like white. And I already had a 18 by 24 paper that I was like drawing whatever was in front of me

at the time. And I just remember taking a deep breath and I was like, and it was like a kid possessed that I was able to just like draw, scribble, doodle. And it was. And it was. nothing like I would draw before because as a tattooist, as a technician, I would only be able to render what I saw was right in front of me. And I was trying to render it exactly with precision. And it was only because I had a reference in front of me. This person, me that was drawing at that time was just drawing from feeling, drawing from memory, drawing from a place that was like, this is a very archaic symbol of a bear. This is a person crying. This is a person doing whatever it was. And I didn't have the confidence to do that before. I had a lot of judgment if I drew that way.

I was like, ha, that looks stupid. Like, why would you draw that? Draw something more realistic. But that day, I removed a lot of judgment from myself. And I started to like practice more of my art as an artist. And I started to just draw more. And I was like, you know what? I'm just practicing. I'm just studying. It's not perfect right now. But I'm going to get to a place where I'm going to get good because I know what my work ethic looks like. And after that, that sitting, I also didn't like wearing black anymore. I don't know what happened, but I was like, I just want to start wearing light colored shirts. So I just started to just wear more, more brighter colors.

And it just was not Andy to wear a bright colored shirt. Eventually, I just started wearing white shirts. But that was also a time where I was willing to talk to clients and say, hey, like, are you okay if I just draw this for you? Like, can I just create something different? And they're like, okay, like, can I just see what it looks like? So I started to spend time not rendering like, here's a photo of this. Clients would just allow me to like draw my own interpretation of what they were saying. And as I began to do more of that, there's a clear distinction between the two bodies of work I do.

One is like a very photorealistic style of work. And one is like a heavily illustrative style. And we just started to call those two versions black shirt and white shirt. And when we talk to clients, we just ask, like, do you want some more realistic or more illustrative? And if they want to know about that more, we kind of share that story. And it just ends up being this process of like, the clients are like, I trust who you are. I see that you understand who I am and what I want to get.

I just trust you to create something that represents who I am. And it's kind of the same process that we did for you, which is like, I have to know the feeling and the idea. And for you, when we were speaking about it, we talked about like, Well, what's his bear doing? What's he look like? What's the feeling? And one of the key words you use was majestic.

And he's roaring, but he's not necessarily like he can, he can kind of like fuck shit up, but he's not like, you know, he's not like, I think the one of the renderings I had was like he killed a moose. Yeah, there was something. We pulled that out. And I was like, there's different versions of that. Like what kind of bear do you want? So being able to like hear and listen to the client, it gives me an opportunity.

to create something of like who you are and really get that to express who you are, but also just knowing like which style, black shirt or white shirt. Is there one that you prefer over the other? I love both. But if I'm on a 50-50 path right now, like clients want one or the other. But if I could just keep going, I'd say like 70, 30, 70%, I would do more of the white shirt illustrative artwork. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. One of the things I've heard you talk about that I really want to dive into is how you've had to learn to become a more effective communicator. And as I've heard you talk about this, in my experience with previous tattoos compared to working with you, with other artists, I felt like I was trying to explain what I wanted. I wanted this tattoo to look like and feel like. but I was being faced with resistance of what they wanted or interpreted that tattoo to look like.

So it was like heads budding of hey this is going on my skin forever. This is what I'm looking to achieve and the artist saying, well, my work comes first. I'm putting it on your body. And obviously that's very ineffective

communication and doesn't build a very respectable or strong relationship. But then just to plunge it. that to our life and how to become a better communicator. And one of the ways to become a better communicator is by being and becoming a more effective listener. How is that influenced your work, your business, especially building upside now that you have a team, you have employees, you have a business, you have a facility, learning how to become a more effective communicator

ultimately by becoming a more effective listener. Yeah. What's that been like? One of the first examples I can think about is in college in like a graphic design course. And it was like, all right, build a website for the client. And the professor was like, I'm the client. So I'm going to tell each of your groups like what I want. And I was leading this website design.

And the client told me what they want in like the most bare bones way. And we spent all this time designing it over like the course of weeks. And we presented it to the first draft to the client. And it's like, that's not what I want. I actually like that's kind of right. But I want this and that and there. And I was like, we worked for like weeks. And like, now you don't like it.

And it's like, the lesson in this is that we have to learn how to like ask more questions for the clients so that we don't spend time and creating something that we want that is not necessarily what the client wants. The client needs, the client is going to get what they want to get. And I was like, oh. So we start to like try to ask more questions. But like it took time and took practice. And that's what also happened a lot in tattooing. Client will come and say like, well, I want to be. bear tattooed on me. Cool. Where do you want to get it on my forearm? Got it. And we come up with our

version. Like, I want this bear to like, you know, be biting down on the salmon, crossing a stream. And there's going to be water splashes everywhere. And then the client comes in and go, I did want a bear, but not like that. And it's like, what do you mean? Like I spent all this time creating it. I was like, oh, well, I can't tattoo you today. I need to redesign this. I'm losing out on income. And I was like, I hate this client. And I was like, wait, that's not the client's fault. That's my fault. And as I began to experience clients not being happy with the initial design, my process was like, oh, I don't think I asked them the right questions. I don't think I really heard them. They said it to me, but I didn't really grasp what they

meant by that. So it was just over a period of time being frustrated, not with the client, but with myself, it was just like, damn, like what could I have asked or what examples could I have shown them of what they wanted and what they didn't want? So as I began to understand that, that's the reason why I do the creative call. That's why we meet face to face and like, I bring up all the possible scenarios. I'm like, do you want it in this style or that style? And if they're really hands off and look, I trust you. Like, I just want this and that and there. I try to throw some crazy examples. And again, it's like, okay, you want a tattoo of Jesus. You want Jesus holding a shotgun crossing river? They go, no, no, no. I want Jesus like looking up and there's going to be light shining

on him. Ah, I can pull like an idea from you. Okay. So like, do you want to see like full body Jesus or do you just want like a torso up? It's like, you know what? I never thought of that. I actually wanted it to be more focused on his head. Cool. Like with a crown or without a crown. So as I began to like think about put myself in their shoes, like what gets you excited about your tattoo? When someone looks at it, would you want to see this version of it? And as I can start to narrow down on possibilities, that's all that is just possibilities. Now I've heard them and I can have a 90% success rate to create something that they like. And with that 90%, there's a extra element that I can add or take away

to just know, like, we can work with most of this year. And that's exactly what happened yours. Like, if we didn't have, I knew that, I was hoping for that moose because it was so cool, but if we couldn't, that's okay. Yeah. It's what the client likes. That's on the client side. Being a business owner and listening to artists and employees, that was a hard one too.

And I had to learn that through time. I've worked with people, but this is the first time I had to really lead people, be responsible for livelihoods. And I had this experience with an artist that he had to talk to me on the side. He goes, hey, I don't think you're really hearing me. I don't think you see me. I don't think you really know who I am. I just think we have a big disconnect. I was like, what do you mean?

Like, give me some examples. and I forgot what it was, but he said, like, this is how I feel. And I was like, oh, so you feel like this? And he goes, no, no, no. I feel like this. And I couldn't say verbatim, word for word, what he was saying. I was bringing my assumptions and I was trying to see what he was implying by what he was saying. And he was like, and there was other people in the room.

He goes, this is what I'm talking about. Like, I say something and it's very black. and white, but you're not hearing me. So the exercise I was taught then was like, can you repeat word for word what he's saying? And it was like, I, I feel, feel this. You feel that. It's like, no. And I was like, I can't hear you. I know you're saying stuff, but I'm always interpreting it differently. And I broke down that day because I realized, like I was literally crying. I was like, dude, I'm so sorry. Like I'm trying, but I just don't hear you. I'm trying to be one step ahead and try to like assume a meaning. And I went home and I talked to my wife about that.

She goes, yeah, you do that. And I was like, what do you mean? And we would just talk about that. And what I had to start doing during like meetings or times where people wanted to sit down with me, I now have a notebook that like, if you don't mind, like I would like to write everything down as much as possible if there's like a concern so that I can reread it. And like, so this is what you're saying. Did I get that right? And they go, yeah. Like, you heard. me. That's okay. I think we can move forward in this conversation. But before it was like, oh, you feel that way? Is it because of this? And I would just make all these assumptions. So it was just due to like having that conversation with another artist that really taught me. I was like,

oh, like I hear it, but I'm not listening. And now I just really take the time and just like try to like note take as if I'm in college. Right. And that helps me like listen better. And I don't get it perfect because I can't write everything down, but at least I can read a summary of things. And I'm like, word for word, I'm going to take it as what you say. This is what you say. This is what you say. Do I have that right? And they go, yeah.

I have to respond based on that, not any assumptions. It makes me think back to so many ineffective conversations I've had with people. Because some people have conversations, and I've been here before, and they're not actually trying to have a conversation. and they're not trying to listen at all, but their goal through the conversation is to finish your sentence. And they gamify it where, all right, I think I know where they're going.

This is what you're thinking. No, just let me finish. Like, don't try to assume where I'm going or what I'm trying to say. Don't try to finish the sentence. Just like listen. Just sit back and listen and consume, digest it, and then think about it. And even as I think back to some of my biggest failures in building BPN,

building this business and building leading a team, it's been ineffective communication in terms of me having a conversation with someone and not giving enough context or asking enough questions. You know, as you're building a business, as you know, and there's so many things you're trying to manage, you go and talk to people and you just blast this vision, very high level. And then you just assume that they are reading your mind.

You see exactly what's in my mind as I'm explaining it to you. And you go work on the next thing. You come back and check on it and it's nothing what you expected. It's just like you said with the tattoo of Jesus. That's not what I wanted. Well, you didn't give us any context. You didn't ask questions. You didn't describe or paint a picture of what you were visualizing.

So, you know, a lot of effective communication is slowing down. And it's like, here's the expectations, laid out. It's this design that looks like this, that has this, it doesn't have this. It's asking the questions and making sure each party is actually listening. One of my favorite quotes I've ever heard was that, Effective communication is a dialogue. It's not a monologue. A lot of leaders, a lot of managers, a lot of business owners are speaking to someone as opposed

to speaking to in hopes of response to consume that response and then respond to that response. So effective communication is challenging. It's difficult. personalized professional life, but listening, as you said, I believe is one of the most instrumental foundations that we can incorporate. Yeah, I've had to learn to teach that to other people too. And not only to like listen, but how to get them to communicate so I can actually listen because some of the people, they expect you to read their minds. And it's like, well, what is the expectation coming to?

into this conversation. What is your expectation being here? And sometimes it's like, well, duh, this is it. I was like, no, I don't know that. I also don't know what you're thinking. I don't know what you've been through. So the expectation is going to be the key component whenever I like talk to somebody is like, and I've also learned to like set the expectation of a conversation. Like, here's what I'd like to talk about. Here's where it comes from. And also here's a time period that we can allocate to that because I've also had like conversations go way off a time. So just learning how to set a parameter to have a conversation so that like we can effectively talk about that. Because especially if it's heated or it's like deep rooted in something that's like more than I think that it's about, things can just kind of explode.

And it comes from like all these past events, memories, traumas or like things that were like building up for a period of time. So it's like we have to take the time to like have a container to like unpack these different parts of the conversation. So it's like here's the expectation. Here's the time we have for it. then it's like passing the box over. It's like, what would you like to fill this box of conversation with? And then it's also learning how to moderate it. It's like, okay, hold on.

We're not going to talk about that yet. And I know it's connected to this, but for now we're just going to stay within this. And it's slowly by slowly like tackling on like whatever the issue or the topic at hand is so that we're good. Yeah. Okay, cool. We understand each other. Let's move forward. Another military reference that is just so applicable to this, but I'm realizing now how the military is massive, right?

Many parts of the military are inefficient, but they're highly effective. And one of the things that we would do with operational planning is that you'd have a task, a condition, a standard, and an end state. So going into any project or mission, like what is a task? What are we trying to accomplish? By what are the conditions? What equipment do we have? What resources do we have? What personnel?

What people do we have to accomplish this? What is the standard in which we have to accomplish this? And what is the end state? When we are done with this objective in this mission, this project, what will have been accomplished? And that creates that container. And you have everything you need then. Effective communication.

Here's my task. Condition, standard. end state, go forth, conquer, execute. But if you don't create that, it's like this massive blanket that you can go in many different directions that has no guide rails, no end state, no mission, no why, no purpose. And it just is ever going, floating all over the place. Yeah.

And the bigger your organization, like the military, like you're going to need that. Because there's so many different personality types. Some people need that. Like, please lay everything out as clear as possible. So I don't want to mess up. Then other people are like, why treat me like a dumbass? Like, I know how to do this thing.

It's like, I just want to make sure that like we're going to do the same thing because if we don't communicate it, we're going to have to redo this. Right. And I've had people redo, you know, organization in the stock room. It's like, no, like that's not the way that I actually wanted. Like you just assumed and we didn't talk more clearly about it. So it has to be laid out very clearly. And that just eliminates all frustration. There might be front end frustration of like.

over sharing and over clarifying, but it's like, I'd rather have that so that we can have a great end product. It's making me think back to this project I'm working on right now with an agency. I get so frustrated with them because the amount of questions they ask, but I know we're going to get a product that is exactly what I wanted, but the amount of questions wear me down. And now through this conversation, actually, I have more respect for this agency because I understand what they're doing. They're making sure that we're aligned and that by the time we're finished, I get exactly what I want, what I expected. But in the front end, it's a lot of questions. It's a lot of listening. It's effective communication. So I probably owe them an apology for being

so mad at them for the amount of questions they ask. Yeah, they're just doing their due diligence. Yeah. Well, Andy, man, I appreciate it, dude. I appreciate you taking time to come on the podcast and really looking forward to this next piece we're doing together. I can just not highlight your shop and your work enough in terms of the respect you show the clients, the process, the work, truly a refreshing experience. And for anyone looking for a tattoo, I'm like, you got to go upside, go to Andy,

head of Texas, fly in if you got to. But I guarantee people will not be disappointed in the experience, the outcome, in every part of it. So I appreciate it, brother. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me here. And, yeah, I'm super excited for the next session that we have coming up. We already have, like, the reference imagery going. And, yeah, we're just going to maximize it, then finally finish up this league for you.

Beautiful. All right. Thanks, man. Yep.