The Nick Bare Podcast - 091: Live Fire Cooking and Meat Science with Hardcore Carnivore's Jess Pryles

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

This episode is a change of pace, but one I've been very excited to share. Jess Pryles, is a live fire cook, author, meat expert and the creator of the internationally-acclaimed line of meat seasonings, Hardcore Carnivore®. We explore Jess’s journey from Melbourne to Texas and spend a majority of the time discussing techniques for cooking with live fire, understanding meat tenderness and flavor, and choosing the best meat cuts. We cover the differences between grass-fed and grain-fed beef, methods for selecting and preparing meat, and essential grilling tools. Chapters 01:32 Mastering the Perfect Steak at Home 02:24 Meet Jess Pryles 03:40 The Art and Science of Cooking Meat 04:58 From Australia to Texas: Jess's BBQ Journey 08:02 Exploring Different Cuts and Cooking Techniques 30:15 The Evolution of Texas BBQ 48:01 The Best Part of the Pork Chop 48:41 Pursuing a Degree in Meat Science 50:19 Understanding Meat and Its Myths 52:42 The Birth of Hardcore Carnivore 56:07 Debunking the Carnivore Diet Confusion 58:27 Cooking Techniques and Tips 01:10:26 Exploring Different Cuts of Meat 01:12:19 Grass-Fed vs. Grain-Fed Debate 01:22:44 Navigating the Meat Market 01:31:47 New Show Launch: Carnivore Strength, endurance, and wellness supplements to fuel your performance. SAVE 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio FOLLOW: IG: https://www.instagram.com/thenickbarepodcast YT: youtube.com/@nickbarefitness Products for serious meat fans. Explore the range of seasoning rubs, apparel, tools and books for hardcore carnivores. Cook meat like you mean it. https://www.hardcorecarnivore.com/ Keep up with Jess: IG: https://www.instagram.com/jesspryles/?hl=en YT: https://www.youtube.com/c/JessPryles

When I started cooking steaks, and this is what a lot of people don't understand, and it's all trial and error, we do not have the same equipment in our homes that restaurants have. It is nearly impossible for you to cook a steak on your home stove and get a restaurant result because you're either going to set your smoke detectors off or the flame on your actual stove isn't hot enough to keep that pan hot enough to where it's not going to lose heat to get a good crust. And so the biggest uphill hurdle as I was learning to cook steaks is how do you get that? steakhouse crust and sear without overcooking the middle. And that was the main idea about black, that it just helps build that crust before you get started, honestly. Today on the

podcast, we have Jess Pryles. Jess, welcome. Hi. Right down the road, Austin, Texas. So a local. I can't believe we haven't hung out before. Well, I came across your brand, as I was telling you, I guess it was a few years ago now. And one of my friends, Jack Arnold, legend, sent me a bottle of the carnivore black seasoning. And at first I was intimidated because it's this black seasoning. Yeah. And he told me to put it on my steak. So I put it on my steak. I cook the steak and it was the best steak I've ever had in my life. And ever since, my wife can attest, I put carnivore black on every steak I cook. I love to hear that. Can I tell you a really weird phenomenon? Yes. I don't know. I came up with the

I've blended all of our seasonings. But I keep getting messages from a lot of guys that use our product that like my wife didn't like steak knife before, but I use your stuff and now she loves it. So I'm wondering if there's something about a woman developing the recipe that resonates with other women's palettes. It's like a weird phenomenon that happens. I mean, my wife has fallen more in love with steak since I've been using carnivore black. It's like it tugs at my heartstrings. to hear that, you know? So I'm excited about this conversation because I have a passion for food.

I have a huge passion for cooking, especially meat. And more recently, like, cooking meat on my fire. I know you said, I'm so stoked that you got into charcoal. Yes. Like, isn't it just so much more fun to? It's so much more fun. Like, you get to move things. The whole thing with grilling is about controlling your heat, right?

And you can't do that on a gas grill, on a propane grill. But once you're cooking over live fire, wood, charcoal, whatever, you can move them around, you can bunch them up, you can split your zones. Like, you are in complete control. And the flavor compounds that develop, like, that's why I think America loves grilling, you know? Yeah, there's like, there's nothing quite like, when I go to finish all the steak, all that flame kind of get pretty high. Yeah.

You flip the steak over and you can see it just bubbling on top. Yeah, yeah. It's like a weird kind of primal caveman, also slightly pyro thing that it satisfies. Yes. You know, when the flames are just licking at the meat, it's good times. I'm obsessed with it. So I'd love to kind of talk a little bit background on you before we dive into your story and then talking all things meat. But you're obviously not from Texas originally.

Not originally. Did my accent give me away? A little bit. Is that a southern Texas accent? It's so southern. It's a different hemorrh. I like to say. I grew up in Melbourne, Australia, yeah. And I moved to Texas about 10 years ago. So it's definitely home now. I'm married to Texan, drive a truck, all my business is here,

all my life is here. My job is practically barbecue, so no other, no better place to be. But yeah, I grew up in Melbourne in a very white-collar, non-agricultural family. and I guess my my superhero super meat hero origin story you might like to call it is I didn't know what I didn't know much about meat. I knew I loved eating it but I wasn't sure what to choose at the grocery store. I wasn't very informed about different cuts. I wasn't very confident making those choices because it's an expensive mistake to make. So I would just sort of eat steaks when I was at restaurants.

You know, like, oh, I meant to flip at seven minutes per side. Like, there's so much different information out there that I just put it in the too hard basket. Yeah. And when I first came to Texas, you know, as you do, everyone's like, oh, you got to eat barbecue when you're here. So I was the tourist and tried some barbecue and became obsessed with it because it just tastes so damn good. Well, barbecue spot was that? It doesn't exist anymore.

It was called Arts Rubehouse on South Lamar. And probably by today's standards, it wasn't even that good. but at the time, at the time, it was like the first time I'd had smoked beef ribs. So incredible flavor experience. And then to cut a very long story short, I kept coming back to Texas and wanted to learn more about barbecue, not only just eat it, but how it was made, and just became obsessed with like how to cook it, understanding how to run an offset. I would do overnight cooks with different pit masters around town to understand how to cook it.

And when you learn about barbecue, especially about brisket, you learn a lot about the raw ingredient because you have to learn how to trim it and how to choose it and the different sizes and all this kind of stuff. And I remember going to my butcher in Australia and saying, it's the most ridiculous story. I thought, I'm going to do a brisket in the oven, right? And I asked for a brisket. And what I got was I now know a completely trimmed, rolled flat. So British style of butchery probably would have turned into shoe leather had I tried to smoke it. But I couldn't understand why you could ask for the same thing in a different country,

same name from the same animal and get something completely different. So that was sort of the catalyst to this journey of asking more questions, connecting more with industry people, agriculture people, meat people, and figuring out much more about meat. And that's what I started sharing with people online because it was like, oh, that's pretty cool about that steak. Oh, charcoal cooking is not as hard as I thought. Like, and the flavor payoff is huge.

And it was just this sort of snowball effect that I'd finally found something I was super passionate about and love. Were you in Australia at this point? Yeah. Okay. I was in Australia and going back and forth. So there was a period of time that I was like probably coming here twice a year. It was ridiculous. It was like, you know, pull your finger out.

It's time to move. Make a life decision. And so I moved in 2015. And then I ended up, you know, really covered the full gamut of barbecue. And then I got really curious. I was a student at this thing at Texas A&M University called Camp. There's Camp Brisket and Barbecue Camp.

And it's like a two-day adult camp for meatheads, right? So I went to barbecue camp and I remember sitting there in the classroom because they hold it in the Meat Science Center, which I didn't even know it was a thing. And they wheeled in half a side of beef on the butcher's racks that came into the classroom. I remember thinking, this is about the coolest classroom I've ever been in, never seen anything like this before. And they started talking about the meat science of it all. And so that was so fascinating to me that I ended up pursuing to the point where I went back to school as a very mature age student and got a meat science certificate from Iowa State.

So I feel like people ask me what I do for a living and I kind of just say I feel like I feel. like I'm a professional carnival because I do so many different things, but the one thing that connects it all is meat, right? I do want to eventually talk about that meat science degree, because I found that extremely fascinating. But going back to Australia, when you came back over to Texas, you discovered barbecue, at that point in your life, were you interested in cooking? Were you interested in food? Or was it like as soon as you tried barbecue, that's where the passion started? I loved cooking. I loved eating. I have always loved food and I've loved exploring flavors. I used to come downstairs when my mom was cooking and sort of, you know, my nose would lead me down the stairs and I'd say, oh, are you cooking with oregano and cinnamon or whatever it was? And she'd go, how did you know? Like, I just, I loved discovering ingredients and I loved, and I loved it. I loved cooking. But the meat part of it in particular was just too hard. I just, it, it, It was just this big mystery.

And I know a lot of people feel the same that they have two or three cuts, maybe that they're familiar with. And that's about it. And they don't want to venture out of it. You know, it's an expensive exercise, like I was saying, whether you're buying it at the meat counter or maybe you're sitting at a steakhouse and you see it cut on the menu that you haven't tried before. It could be 40, 50, 60 buck exercise to discover you may or may not like it.

So I think a lot of people stay in their lane when they could get much more. They could get much more brave with that. Yeah, like my experience growing up, which I'm completely changing with my kids, like my daughter, we posted this video on Instagram the other night where I made bone-in rib-eyes. And I cut the bone off of one of the stakes for her. I cut the bone off the other stake for me. And we were both sitting at a table, like, gnaworn on this bone. That's awesome.

She loves steak. She loves expensive steak, too. She got good taste. She got great taste, and I'm probably creating a bad habit. But me growing up, my dad's side of the family were dairy farmers. Mom's side of the family, blue collar, military. Agriculture was a big part of our childhood. And my mom's parents had this one acre garden in their backyard.

How incredible. It was amazing. Like the most juicy red tomatoes I've ever had in my life. So we always had a fresh produce. We had a cherry tree in the backyard there. Corn on the cob was massive in central Pennsylvania. Sweet corn, tomatoes, lettuce, red onion. A bunch of herbs and stuff, too, I'm guessing.

It was everything. Yeah. And we'd go over to my grandparents' house every Sunday after church. and we'd have a family dinner. It was typically hamburgers and homemade French fries. So my grandpa, he'd grow the potatoes, he'd slice the potatoes, he'd deep fry the French fries, he'd make hamburgers. So the entire meal was an experience.

Do you have an appreciation, like even then, of how incredible that is in terms of being really connected with your food and understanding that? I did not then. When did it happen for you? My relationship with food has been very interesting because I grew up eating very fresh fruits, vegetables, produce, a wide variety of recipes and cooking. And then when I was like 14, 15 years old, I developed a very severe eating disorder. So I was starving myself.

And then after that, I found fitness. But food wasn't about quality. It wasn't about taste. It was about numbers. It was about carbohydrates and fats and proteins. And it was like that for years through high school, through college. And then mid-20s, late-20s, I started actually valuing quality of food as opposed to quantity of food and a greater appreciation for taste and experience. And what food does, not necessarily just for nourishment, but bringing people together in community and environment. So my relationship with food has gone all over the place.

And now it's this, I mean, this point in my life where food is this connecting thing that I love to experience. I love to eat as much as I put emphasis on quantity and nutrition to fuel my performance and my training. It's just as much about the taste, the flavor, the experimenting. And the experience. Like I always say, if you always say, If you ask someone, what's your favorite food memory?

It's nearly always connected either to family or travel. So it's either like, oh, it's my grandma's chicken soup or, oh, it's traveling through the desert in New Mexico. And we stopped at this little gas station. There was a little, Iwoly to selling tamales. And oh, my God, those tamales sound, you know, amazing. Because we have this emotional connection with food beyond just fuel. Yeah. Like, it would be nice.

I think for a lot of people who definitely struggle. know, with eating too, if we could say like, oh, we should just view it as fuel. But for whatever reason, I think we have this other connection as humans to what food and community does for us, you know? Absolutely. One of my favorite things to do is either have people over and host or go to dinner with people. And it's not rushing that dinner. It's like taking the time to cook it while they're there and experience it in multiple course. And I like watching people try it and taste it. What I really dislike is when I spend all this time on a meal.

And I serve at someone who doesn't appreciate food and, like, it's pretty good. I'm like, but this is like a really good steak. Don't you know? You just take one more bite. Tell me about the stakes that I need to know about the stakes that you choose. Like, what's a really good steak to you? I either go rabbi or strip. Yeah.

And more likely I've been going, actually, Actually, lately I've been going Porterhouse. Okay. I've really been enjoying Porterhouse lately. I don't like to do too many ribbyes just because they are higher and fat. Yeah. I get a lot of flavor. I made ribbyes last night and they're absolutely incredible.

So I'll go strip, rabbi or porter house. Do you ever mess with the top sirloin cap, the pecania? I never have. I've seen that. I'm a little intimidated by it. We're going to fix that because I feel like that could be a good leaner option for you that's still got real steaky flavor. That's good to know.

Yeah, yeah. It's one of my absolute favorite sleepers. It's cheaper per pound than a rabi. You can control, there's a big fat cap on it and less intramuscular fat. So you can literally control by either eating or not eating that fat cap and just concentrating on the leaner muscle. I have to try that. Yeah, but it's delicious. I tried a tri-tip the other night. Yeah. And I don't know if I did something wrong, if I cut it wrong, but I felt like it was, you know, like when you bite into it and it's a little like chewy. Yeah, yeah. That's what happened. It didn't really, it didn't break down the way I thought it would. It's a tough, it is a really tough muscle because the grain, the direction of the meat fibers,

changes halfway through, even though it's one muscle. It's the TFL, by the way. I can freak people out with, like, I'm like, oh, man, my infraspinitis is sore. Oh, that's a flat iron, you know, like crap like that. But that flat iron, sorry, the tri-tip, it does have that sort of chew. to it, that springiness to it based on the muscle because it does stretch out a lot when it's in situ. And I think it's either those like you like it or you don't. I like smoking tri-tip because it can sort of firm up a little bit more and it stays a little bit more together. But I think

you're like Picagna, that top sirloin cap, way more. It's got a much more familiar. It's closer to a strip steak and texture. Okay. I'll try that. Yeah. But going back to, um, sorry, I've got a It's on track. I was too excited. Going back to my childhood, we ate these really good meals, but the meat was never the, like, focused. So we had really good hamburgers. But the hamburger was well, well, well done. Yeah. That was me too, man.

That was my growing up. Everything was practically cremated. Yep. Steaks, like steaks were gray in the middle. I remember my dad cooking our steaks on our back patio. on just a regular propane grill, no lights on. So the only way you could tell if it was done or not is if it was pretty much black.

Mom would make pork chops growing up, but these things were you had to cover each side and ketchup to get it down. So we ate a lot of meat growing up. We had a lot of meat. But we never prioritized the way meat was selected or cooked or prepared. It was just like a staple part of the meal.

So growing up, if we went to a steakhouse, I wasn't going to order steak because my experience with steak was it's not that good. Yeah. So I go for a burger. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. You know, and I think another big portion of it was that not quite understanding food safety.

So just the idea of like, oh, raw meat, you know, I know it can make you sick. So I better just cook the crap out of it without having that really nuanced understanding that a lot of people have these days about. why you can have things rare or what you do need to cook to a minimum temperature. Like at one point, the USDA had pork cooking as high as chicken, and then they revised it down because they, you know, meat science looked into it and said, hey, this bacteria, this pathogen actually dies at this temperature. So you can stop overcooking your pork, everybody. So I think the safety aspect had a lot to do with it.

And there is this revolution now of people just like cooking badass. at home, like steakhouse style steaks at home because it's not that hard. I honestly think that my steaks compete with some of the stakes that I have in steakhouses. I bet. Because what I also find when I go down to dinner, I order a steak, it's covered in butter, it's covered in oil. And I want that steak to have some smoke. I wanted to have some flavor. And I can get that at home.

So that's like what I lean more towards now, as opposed to going out for a steak. This is our, you know, I have a freezer full of some really nice steaks that I'm lucky enough to be sent from different companies that want me to try their stuff. And at one point, you know, my husband and I both, if we go out to a steakhouse, we're probably ordering like oysters and nearly seafood all the time because it's so rare that we're going to have an experience that's as good as what we'll have at home. Usually the only time that I do order steak out is if it's a cut or a style of beef or a breed that I've had, less experience with. So I want to sort of collect more, have more tries of it, really,

more than anything else, you know? What's the best steak you ever had in your life? I don't know if I'd have, if I've had a single one. A memorable steak. A memorable steak,

last year we went to Italy for the first time. And there's a whole bunch of stuff that we think we know that we're taught. Like, you need to find meat that's well marbled because that's going to be tender and have more flavor. you know, all of these different, and it needs to be from an 18-year-old steer, 18-month-old steer,

all of these rules that apply to what should make good stake according to American standards. In Italy, they have this breed called Keanina, and it's a big, muscular workhorse of a breed, and they, without getting too nerdy, they keep the females and don't breed them, which is nearly unheard of, because if you're going to keep cattle, you use the females to breed and that's how you make money off of them. But they figured out if you don't breed them and they never have those hormones that are associated with pregnancy into their body, they don't get as tough. So they keep them just for beef from this female animal. They call it scotona. And it's extremely lean. And by every stretch of your imagination, you think this is going to be

tough, it's not going to be good. And it has the most incredible flavor. It's nearly like if you're If you're a bourbon or you're a cigar person and, you know, I'm sure people superficially say, well, cigars, they're the same. Old bourbons taste the same. Whatever it is that you're into like that. But you know when you get into it that there are so many nuanced flavors and this beef was like that. It was incredible. And they had to serve it on a hot stone because if it cooled down, like the texture became unpleasant.

Oh, wow. Yeah, just like you said, like with the tri-tip, right? Like every little micro thing can influence how that steak taste. There's stuff that happens as the animal is raised, as it's being processed. There's stuff that you can change when you get at home from the butcher shop that's going to affect how it eats. So I think that was probably one of my most memorable ones for sure because I wasn't expecting it. Yeah, I wouldn't expect Italy to have this renowned steak experience. I know, right?

And there's little pockets like that all over the. the world that are just really rich in their beef history. The Angus cattle in the Scottish Highlands and the Rubia Gallega in Spain and the retired dairy cattle in Denmark. And they're these amazing different flavor experiences through the beef. What about Texas? Do you have a favorite steakhouse in Texas? There's a couple. Killens in Houston is amazing because they have a big variety on the menu. Knife in Dallas has a really cool dry aging program so you can try a whole lot of different stuff there

we tend to go to Eddie V's a lot here because they also do some dry age steaks but it's hard because I eat steak at home more than anything Yeah, exactly I get that Yeah Do you cook much wagg you? I do, yeah I don't cook as much at home anymore

But I've cooked absolutely plenty of it All the way from like the A5 Mishima Wagu that nearly looks, you know, pale white because it's got more fat than muscle in it. Right. All the way down through. I actually prefer just a prime grade or even like a really highly fatty grass fed, which you can get from certain areas of the world. Because the flavor's different. Sometimes Wagyu's too rich for me now.

Yeah, I can see that. Can you explain Wagyu, is it a breed or is the way that? that it is raised. How do you get Wagyu beef? That's a great question. So wagu literally means beef cattle in Japanese and it's a breed. So there's four types of beef cattle within that Wagyu certification. Akayushi is one of them. So sometimes you see beef marketers, Akayushi. That's a type of Wagyu. It's like anything. There's different, there's a, there's a spectrum, right? So you can get those crazy Kobe beef is a type of Wagyu. It's just protected, like the difference between bourbon and whiskey kind of thing.

So it has to come from a certain area of Japan. So you can have Wagyu that marbles at A5. That's basically their chart to say, how marbled is this? And that's the stuff that the Japanese will eat like two ounces at a time because it's so rich. They just sort of use it to season rice. But Americans are used to, you know, a good 12. 14, 16 ounce steak sometimes. So what we started seeing happen as they imported Wagyu genetics into the United States

is they started crossing them over Angus cattle. And you might have a 75% cross, a 50% cross. That's what's known as American Wagyu. So brands like Snake River Farms that a lot of people are familiar with, Mishima Reserve, that will be a Wagyu cross. It has to have at least 50% Wagyu. genetics, but they design that, one, because it's cheaper, but mainly because of that, the way Americans eat steak is not those very small portions. It's much larger. So they tailor it. So

you got that buttery richness. The Wagyu has a genetic capacity to put on fat more easily than other breeds, and their fat is actually a different texture. So if you ever hold a pure blood wagyu steak in your hand, you'll find that it has this really interesting coating that melts into your hand nearly straight away. Raw, of course, not cooked. The fat has a lower melting point. So then especially, you know, that's also affected by the feed as well. But generally, I think what confuses people is you see, oh, wagu, it's got to be good, but it depends. It depends. Is it American wagu? What cut is it? How are you eating it? What was it fed?

How old was the animal? There's a lot of stuff that goes into it. For A5 Wagyu, which is extremely marbled, I've eaten too much A5 Wagyu before, and I felt sick because it's so much fat. If you had to guess, like, what is the ratio of fat to protein in like A5? If you're talking about those full on, like, you know, the absolute pinnacle steakhouse experiences where they wheel it out. with like a certificate and everything. I mean, sometimes it can be 80-20. It's 80-% fat to 20%. 80% fat. Yeah. Like it is, I mean, I don't know how some of these animals are standing at the end of it. You can see it. The whole thing is colored in this, like I said, this pale pink color. Yes. The color of me,

that pink color is present in muscle but not fat. So that's a great indicator of how fatty your meters, right? So if you're seeing more pink or more red to it, you know you have a leaner cut. Those are the really high-end A5s are kind of insane. And it definitely, we had a supplier for a little while where someone had sent me a ton of them. And my husband turned around to me one night and he's like, please no, please no more. Like, I've had enough. I cannot eat any more A5 Wagyu for a long time. So I think we still have some of them in the freezer because he just tapped out on it. You should get burnt out from it. You do.

I've spent more than I'd like to admit on Snake River Farms website. It's great product, but it's good meat. It's very rich. It is. Yeah. Last night we got, we had some friends come over for dinner last night. I went to HEB, and I got some grass-fed New York strips, and I got two of their Wagyu rib-bys. And they were great steaks.

I made it with the carnivore black, threw it on the green end. egg, something like I hate to admit, but when I first started cooking ribbyes and like actually trying to cook ribby as well, I always saw people cut off the cap. And I thought it's because the cap was just like not good. Not good. So I would cut off the cap and I'd feed it to my dogs. Oh, Nick. How long did it take you to figure that out? Over a year. Oh, my God. And then one day someone was like cut off the cap and they're like, here, try this. I was like, I was like, my God, it's incredible. Yeah, it's the best part of the steak.

And I told them, I said, I've been cutting that off and giving it to my dogs for last year. It's the best part of the whole animal. I know. Oh, my God. Your dogs are pretty lucky, though. Exactly. So now, like, what I did last night is steaks were done, letting him rest. I cut the caps off.

And then I just sliced the cap up and I put it out on a little plate. Like, this is, you know, appetizer. Yeah. Appetizer steak for your full steak. But yeah, I cannot believe that I was doing that. And I hate to even put that into the universe. reverse and let people know. But I think, look, we've all made mistakes like that and admitting that you're human is

like how we grow, right? Exactly. So I'd love to talk about like what makes Texas barbecue. Yeah. So unique. As I was telling you, I grew up in Pennsylvania. We did not have barbecue. What barbecue was for me was chicken barbecue.

And like baseball teams, football teams, soccer teams in high school would host like fundraisers to raise money for their organization. So they bring a big smoker in. They cook half chickens. And you'd go get a half chicken, a rusted potato, a roll, and a cup of applesauce. For like 10 bucks. Apple sauce? Apple sauce. Okay. 10 bucks. And like growing up, that was what barbecue was for me. Yeah. We didn't have barbecue joints. We didn't have smoke houses. We would do ribs or you'd buy ribs somewhere, but they weren't smoked. And then what? They're just done in the oven? Just done in the oven.

Okay. Loaded with barbecue sauce, smothered in barbecue sauce. Yeah. Hide all the sins. Very sweet. Got down to Texas. One's my first smokehouse, which might have been either love barbecue or Terry Blacks. Oh, dude.

Both great. And I was mind-blown. I walk in and I'm mind-blown by this experience. There's people yelling. You're walking through lines. They're cutting up meat in front of you. Yep. And the first time I actually ever took my wife's dad, my friend.

father-in-law for barbecue. He's like, I've had barbecue before. Sure. Have you had Texas barbecue? He's like, ah, it's all the same. So we walk in, we're waiting in line. He goes, what are we doing? We wait in line because they're going to cut it in front of us. No, no, don't we sit down first. We order for a menu. It told you you haven't had Texas barbecue before. So it's an experience, but also the way they prepare the meat here in Texas is different from, say, like, a St. Louis. Yeah. What makes Texas barbecue so special and unique? So Texas was settled by a lot of Czech and German immigrants,

especially here in central Texas, where Austin is. And they brought that very Germanic knowledge of smoked meats and sausages and things like that with them. So a lot of them ended up opening meat markets. And, you know, there's still a few historic meat markets around like that. The other thing that Texas had was, cattle. So when they overhunted, have you seen, oh my God, what's the movie with Kevin Costner and the Buffalo? I've totally blanked. I used to know that dances with wolves. You're probably

too young for it. But I know of, but I've never seen it actually. Okay. So it talks about like the slaughter of the, basically the bison were hunted to near extinction here in Texas as the settlers came through. And that created a lot of grassland. That's how the beef industry started in Texas. Because now you've got nothing grazing on it. It's like, all right, let's throw some cattle down. Right. So you had cattle here and you had these Czech and German immigrants who were running these meat markets. And they figured out that they would apply those smoking techniques to these leftover tough cuts like brisket to also sell cooked food in their markets. So you would go to these markets and you would maybe buy a sleeve of crackers or a little bit of white bread and you would order your meat by the pound because it was a butcher shop. And that's why you still line up at these barbecue joints.

They're cutting on a big butcher block. They're serving you on butcher paper. And the sides are very basic. It's a couple pickles, couple onions, couple crackers or some white bread thrown on the tray because that was the tradition of it all. And never sauce on this. Sauce is optional on the side. As you said, with the ribs like.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's only to hide the sins. If you do it right, you don't need the sauce at all. 100%. Yeah. So Texas, I think the beef in Texas is what makes a big difference. but there's been this big renaissance in Texas barbecue over the past sort of 10, 15 years

where you used to be able to get some pretty crappy barbecue, especially at these older places, smaller towns, you know, it was pretty underwhelming because it was a cheaper meal. And if it was dry, it was dry, they had to serve it because they're not going to throw it out. And so what happened with places like Terry Blackslaw barbecue, that's all new school barbecue. There was a bunch of pitmasters, these new guys that decided, we're going to hold this to a higher standard, just like the stakes, right? Just like we turn from overcooking steaks

to everyone's pretty fancy about doing it in their own houses now and hitting medium rare. So the standard of barbecue overall was raised tremendously. There's a local publication, Texas Monthly. They do that list of top 50 barbecue joints. Probably 10, 15 years ago,

that list was like slim pickens if you made it because not everywhere was great. Now they're spoiled for choice. It's hard to find bad brisket in Texas now, and that's a good thing. Yeah, I mean, I feel like the options of good barbecue are all over the place. All over the place. Anywhere you go. One of my, like, the first place I lived in Texas, because I was stationed at Fort Hood, I was in the military, and that's what brought me here.

And I lived in Belton, Texas first and in Temple, Texas. Did you go to shops? I went there, but my prefer. was Miller's barbecue. Okay. Oh, Millers is great. Millers has like this smoked chicken.

And like the staff there is so friendly and so nice. Like I think about that chicken frequently because you pick up the bone and everything just falls right off the bone. Yeah. It's incredible. And they're one of those new school joints. They are, you know, like better sides, better quality meat, like better quality cook, I should say, rather.

Millers are great. There's, you really, you cannot go wrong in this state now. We're living in the golden age of barbecue. It's beautiful. Yeah. What a time to be alive, right? I know. Seriously.

So what made this revolution in barbecue so popular? Was it the demand? Was it like this new introduction to offset smokers? What do you think made this massive change where it became so popular? Flavors got better. Meat got better. was there someone pioneering that charge? I think a couple things.

So on a very simplistic level, I just think it tastes better. Like, you've had bad brisket in your time, right? Yeah, I've made a few of them. Yeah. So, like, that's nothing to write home about, you know? Like, that's not changing any paths in life. But really good brisket is a really phenomenal food experience. So I think on a base level, it just tastes much better.

Aaron Franklin, obviously, legendary here in Texas and probably the world, five-hour lines at Franklin Barbecue. He was, I think, the guy who started applying more chef-style standards to his brisket. So he really started experimenting with resting and cooking to feel instead of just jamming a thermometer in it. And also not serving it if it didn't work out. You know, it's a natural, it's not a widget, it's a natural piece of meat. sometimes things go wrong with it. Sometimes it doesn't cook as you expect it. Sometimes it takes different cook times.

And if it wasn't ready, he wouldn't serve it. And as I mentioned, that didn't used to happen. So the standard goes up overall. The flavor goes up because that rest that people do now breaks down that collagen that has converted to gelatin during the cook. That's what gives it that unctuous sort of gelatinous flavor. And it really allows it to relax. and fall apart that changes the way it eats.

And I think people got fascinated by, you know, the show Barbecue Pitmasters came out. It was the first barbecue show on TV talking about competition barbecue. And people got fascinated. You know, it's that fascination of like, oh, I think we're going to get an offset smoker. You know, that's what caught me. I'm like, how do you put half a cow in this thing that looks like a locomotive that has no controls other than two airflows, and you produce this incredible brisket out of it. It's fascinating.

That's one of my feature purchases is an offset smoker. Yeah. I want to really get into that. I hope you got a lot of spare time. I don't. I don't. But I will make time. I got a newborn at home, weekend or at home.

I'm set. Yeah. Only in the last couple years should I, I'd say even like the last 18 months maybe, start cooking my meat with the thermometer. It was always based off time or look or like I would touch it to see. But I use a thermometer with all my meat now. And for me, it's full proof. Like, do you still, as an experienced like pit master cooked, do you still use a thermometer

for your meat? I really do. I use it. I'll use it for food safety, but not done this. And the other thing is when I just spoke about like not using a thermometer and brisket, I think if you're talking about steaks, and live fire cooking, you definitely should use a thermometer. It is the best way to learn.

It's the best way to be sure the old thing where they used to pinch their, you know, their palm to tell the donors. Yeah. Well, I guarantee you your palm is a little more muscular than mine. So, you know, it doesn't even feel the same, right? So it's one of those things that it gives you the answer as to doneness because we know 135 is medium rare, 145 is medium, 1 20, 25 is rare. we know chicken is safe at 165, ground beef is safe at 160, and pork is safe at 145.

So those safety measurements, I think it's really handy to have a thermometer, especially for chicken. That's how you avoid salmonella issues. But I'm definitely at the stage now with steaks. It's just by feel. So I like to tell people that are getting into it. Start with a really good thermometer. An instant read gives you quick, precise measurement, not that old turkey style that you shove in there and it takes. Yeah, exactly. You deserve better than that. Use it until you get comfortable and then you can start going by field just based on how

often you've been doing it, you know, just based on experience and repetition. So if you want to pull off a stake at 135 for medium rare, for my understanding is like if I, say for example, I put the thermometer in that stake, it's 135. I take it off. It's still going to keep cooking once I take it off. So should you take it off before 135 in anticipation that it's going to get to 135? It depends. So yes, it will climb.

We're talking a few degrees max, like three to four max, unless it depends on the size. So if you have a pretty thin steak, ribai that's about an inch, you can pull it around 135, maybe 133, and it'll be exactly where you want it to be. If you pulled that steak at like 129, 130, and it's pretty thin, it's probably not thick enough to carry enough heat to continue cooking it to where you want it to be. If you took a prime rib and it's been in there for hours and hours and hours, it is definitely going to have much more carryover heat. So you can pull a prime rib at 120 at rare, 125,

and then hold it for an hour in a Yeti, you know, or a cooler, it will get to medium rare because of how much heat is in that thing and the fact that you're holding it in a heat box. That makes sense. Yeah. So it just depends. We do pork chops just as much as we do steaks. Oh, yeah?

I love pork chops. Like a double bone-in pork chop. Nice. And I'll do it like a little undercooked because I don't like a dry pork chop. Yeah. And I actually throw the hardcore carnivore suite on our pork chops. That's perfect for it. Do you ever brine them?

No. How would you brine it? So you just dump it in a water solution with salt and sugar is the ideal. You don't have to use sugar, but it just helps balance it out from a flavor perspective. Okay. What brining does for meat, you know, you hear everyone talk about brining your turkey, right? It binds the salt into the cellular level of the meat. of the meat. So basically, when we cook chicken, when we cook pork, it loses moisture. Meat is

75% water. And when you lose that moisture, that's how you end up with it being dry. So brining adds more moisture into the meat before you start cooking it to compensate for the moisture that's lost during the cook, which leaves you with a juicier result. How long would you brine that for? You can do it as little as sort of two to four hours, or if, you know, again, it's sort of based on the size, or you can brine overnight. You can just throw it in the night before and just let it sit in your fridge. And you can mess around with different flavors. So you can use apple cider and cinnamon and peach nectar and all those flavors that we know go really well with pork, like, you know, fruit flavors and different spices and things like that too.

I've heard you talk about a dry brine before for your steaks. Yeah. Where you cover them in seasoning or salt overnight. or I think I heard you say up to two weeks before and then you vacuum seal them and keep them in the fridge. Did I hear you talking about that? That's different. Yeah, it's two different things, but they're both cool things. Okay, let's hear about it. Dry brining is the same concept as wet brining. So normal brine has water and moisture

and it submerges completely in the fridge. Dry brining is just covering things in salt and like you'd leave your stakes uncovered in the fridge overnight. and what that does, salt will pull the moisture out, then it'll turn into like a brine solution because the salt will then melt, and eventually the meat will suck the water back in. So you get a deeper seasoning through the meat.

But if you are someone who likes to season, like with hardcore carnivore, doing dry brining can oversalt your meat because now you've got salt all the way through and you've got it on the surface. So you just have to sort of know what you're working with. The other thing is wet aging. So if you take any kind of meat,

and you vacuum seal it and you throw it in your fridge for two weeks, you are actively tenderizing and wet aging that meat by doing nothing at all except just leaving it there. Do you do that frequently or is that a rare occasion? It's a rare occasion. Like rib-eyes, you know, if you're buying good quality stuff that you know is tender, you don't need to do it. So I do it a lot with the deer that I get that needs a little bit of help. Or those pecanias I was telling you about top sirlones can be a little tougher.

Sometimes strips can too. even try tips those are all great candidates for wet aging because you are breaking down some of those bonds that hold that muscle in flex which makes it more tender and then going into the resting the importance of resting i wanted to come back to this because you brought up with Aaron Franklin i let my stakes rest for five to ten minutes is it does the resting time is it dependent on the size of the meat and kind of like what time frame shall be looking towards for resting?

I say you're either someone who likes your meat juicy or you like your meat hot. So there is no right or wrong when it comes to resting. I like juicy. Okay. So then resting is probably for you. So there's also some videos I've seen lately from folks, especially on social media, being like,

here I'm debunking steak resting for you. Look, here's a paper towel filled with meat juice and I'm weighing it on my scale, therefore it is accurate. That's not the data that you're going to get from a meat science laboratory, recreating this experiment with precise tools. So meat has a lot of water in it, and there's space between the muscle fibers where that water exists. When we cook meat, it flexes, which is why it shrinks,

and those gaps close up. And when those gaps close up, all of the water is pushed to the very edges of the muscle fiber or the edges of the steak. When you rest it, you're allowing the steak to relax and the water can redistribute to some of those areas, which gives you a juiciest steak. So the rest is proportionate to the cook time. So the brisket has cooked for something like 12 to 16 hours, which is why it can handle a three, four, five, six hour rest in a cooler. If your steak was sort of real hot and fast, you really only need to give it five to ten minutes to, um, to allow that to happen because it was a quicker cook, a quicker contraction, and a quicker relaxation.

It's good to know. Yeah. This is a side question, comment quickly for diving some of their stuff. Do you go towards bone in stakes or boneless? God, it's tough. I usually probably go boneless because if the boning isn't cut properly, it can be harder to grill. because if that bone, you know, sometimes you get it and they've cut it a little weirdly on the bandsaw

and the bone sticks out a little bit more than the flesh does. And so you miss that little area in between the bone and the meat doesn't always get a good sear because the bones sort of holding it up from being even on the grill. So it just depends. Like I think if you're someone who loves gnawing on bones, I love gnawing on the bone. Then you're a bone in person.

It's like a dog. We went to dinner. a few weeks ago, Dye do in Austin. Yeah, yeah. And everyone at the table got the big bone in pork chop. Yep. And everyone cut around that bone, ate the pork chop,

and then the waitress came to clear our plates. No, how dare she? And I was like, yeah, we're done. I was like, hold on, guys. There's like a solid half inch of meat on the edge of this bone. Like, it's the best part. No one wanted it.

So I gnawed off everyone else's bone before she took it. Because for me, it's the best part of that. It's fun. I used to be like that with little lamb chops that my mom used to make. Like gnawing along the bone and that crispy membrane was like the best part. Yep. I love lamb chops.

Yeah. Love lamb chops. So underrated. So this meat science graduate certificate from Iowa State University. Yes. What made you want to pursue a degree in meat science? I had learned so much about barbecue. I had learned a lot about meat.

from just personal experience and experimenting. And I, like I said, had gone to that camp brisket or barbecue camp and seen, had a glimpse into what meat science does. And it opened this little door to, oh, my gosh, there's so much more that goes into it. You know, I was reading as much as I could and relying on friends for information and I'd done all of the short courses that I could. and I was just still thirsty for more knowledge and understanding things. And so I started looking at what was an option.

I had a fully, you know, hardcore carnivore is its own business. I do my own stuff on the side like demos and I speak at events and, you know, all the same kind of stuff you do. So I had two full businesses that I was already running and didn't really have time to go all the way back to school. So Iowa State had this program that was online that was specifically for graduates to sort of augment their learning experience. So that seemed perfect, but I had to apply back to college.

And I was a kid that did no sciences in my communications degree when I did that back in my 20s. And I had to apply based off like real life experience to cover the prerequisites that I didn't have for science. But it was so fascinating. You know, it's that knowledge is power thing. And when you understand, and that's what I enjoy sharing with my audience, you know, you see so many of my videos like, here's how you can make stuff more tender. Here's how to pick this steak. Hey, this isn't blood and you don't need to be afraid of it.

When we understand things, we feel so much more empowered. And even understanding, I remember when in class he started talking about what it is in bacon that potentially makes it carcinogenic and why that doesn't happen anymore, but why it technically could happen even though it doesn't. So that's where that whole bacon is going to give you cancer. a thing comes from. And, you know, we usually just sit there and go, oh, that's bad for us. That's bad for us. That's bad for us. But few people, you're an exception, have a deeper understanding of why. And so I love that how and why of the meat as well.

It helps you control the narrative that is being portrayed as the wrong narrative based off of lack of information. So the degree definitely, I would assume, arms you with the actual knowledge to say, no, what you're saying is, is not correct. And here's why and helping to inform people. Definitely. It's unrefutable data until better data comes along. That's the sort of definition of science. But there was also a part for me, honestly, like, I've been online for, you know, I've been on Instagram for 12 plus years. And that's a long time to be a influencer. I've seen it all changed and what you have to post. And obviously, in the last couple of years, been an explosion in sort of self-professed professionals, especially as it gets much easier

to grow your account. So I think one of the things that was really important to me, just for my own moral compass, was providing accurate information. And there was an aspect as well that if you have college certification in something or any kind of certification in something, you come from an area of authority. So that was important. to me too, you know. Yeah, it provides you credibility as a source of truth and trust. Yeah. And it's not that I benefit from that. You know, I'm not going to sell any more bottles of seasonings for doing that. I just think it's the right thing to do. I think there's a lot of so much stuff and noise out there that you may as well contribute good things that could help people.

Yeah. I do want to talk about the start of hardcore carnivore, but you said something that I don't want to forget to touch on. You take a piece of meat off the grill. You let it wrap. You let it for a little bit, you cut into it, red, red juice goes everywhere. And everyone says, oh, it's still bleeding. That's not blood, though. It is not blood. What is that? It is myoglobin. It's the protein that gives meat its color. And it is a really fascinating protein because we do things like, if you ever bought ground beef in the grocery store and it'll be cherry red on the outside and then you crack it open to break it up and the inside is kind of gray. Yeah. So, So the myoglobin changes color as it interacts with oxygen.

So when it's in vacuum seal and doesn't have oxygen, it nearly gets a purply color. When it has access to oxygen, it blooms bright red. It's also the same reason sometimes when you cut into your stakes, if you look at them like five minutes after you've cut, it looks even redder because it's been allowed to interact with that oxygen. So it's a really cool. I don't want to nerd out too much. I'm like, oh, God, am I getting too deep in the wheeze with all this stuff? But it is literally just natural water that occurs in the meat that's colored with a protein, not blood.

Yeah, I like finding these different farms and ranches across the U.S. And I'll order their meat in and just, I like tasting the difference. Yeah. And just learning. And there's this butcher shop in Nashville that last week I ordered stakes from. It's called PR butcher, Porter Road. and we used to get a lot of our meat there when we lived there. They also made these really good homemade beef and pork meatballs.

I'd go every week and get some. But I ordered two two inch bone-in rib-eyes. I mean, they were thick. Yeah. this deep red, perfectly medium rare, but a great steak. It's cool. And you know, if you think about it, that's still like, you know, a biodynamic thing that is happening, even though the animal is well deceased.

Like the myoglobin can still change in state all the way through until it completely runs out, which is when it goes either gray from cooking or it turns off and turns brown in your fridge. So it's kind of neat to think about how much stuff actually goes into it from a, again, and that meat science and, you know, that aspect, I guess. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah. I got a bunch of leftover steak from last night in the fridge right now that I'm having

for dinner and I can't wait. I know, I'm getting hungry too. Cannot wait. I should have bought you some steaks right now, actually. A big mistake. Oh, I'd eat them. Any day, any time. This whole team here at BPN, like we are steak people through and through.

What year did you found and start hardcore carnivore? 2016. So I was already using the phrase before that just because it was snappy. But the first seasoning, the black came out in 2016. And that was the first seasoning in the black? And I want to make it very clear that you, because this is how I, my, when I first discovered the company, it has no affiliation with the carnivore diet. None at all. And before we start recording, you were kind of saying that's been a blessing. and a curse. Yes.

In what ways? You know, if you think about it, it's just a clever, fun name, right? It just seemed like a fun name for meat seasoning. And then the carnivore diet really started to get popular a few years after we established the company. And, you know, my TV show is called hardcore carnival. My cookbook is called hardcore carnival. All the products are called hardcore carnival.

And as you said, there are folks that are confused. because they assume that it's part of the carnivore diet. And, you know, it's no easy thing to turn around to a company that's been around for eight years and say, or should we have a rebrand? That's like suicide, right? Like you've got all this equity in the brand name. But there are a lot of folks who make the purchases without reading the ingredients. So there are no claims anywhere about being for a diet.

There's no health claims. There's no nutrition claims. It's just, hey, we make seasoning. for people who love to eat meat. And every now and again, we have folks who just buy it and then get upset that some of our flavors have sugar in it, which, because I make them for how they taste, sugar is important to balance flavors sometimes. So some of our flavors have sugar in it.

And they, you know, a few people think it's sort of misleading. Same with the cookbook. But that's our cross to bear that, you know, the name was invented before the diet. and there's some onus on people. There are also folks who are on carnivore diet who do use black, even though it has a little bit of sugar in it, because they also understand that overall,

it's such a minuscule amount it's not actually going to affect their eating. So I think it's just that spectrum of people they choose what works for them, right? Yeah, I can see how that brings some difficulties, but the name is so strong. Right. Hardcore carnivore.

It tells you exactly what, like, it's not just like telling you what the seasoning is for but it's also like this primal experience where I imagine myself I started using more of the hardcore corner of seasonings when I started cooking on live fire as opposed to like an electric propane grill or even my my pellet smoker but there's something about like those seasonings and the name and live fire that just like brings you to life it works I mean we obviously you know We have nine flavors in the line now, so I use them across all my cooking, even indoors. And it's funny, you know, folks are, I don't know if you get this with your products too,

you must, but folks are so focused on what you tell them to do with it. Like, I love cooking with experimenting, right? Like, ooh, I think this tastes good on this. It must taste good on this as well. And so when we released black, it said, like, steak and beef seasoning. And people were like, oh, can I use it on anything else? Like, yeah, you can use it on whatever you want. This is just the guidance for how I would use it.

So that's always fascinating to me in terms of people just being really down that one lane that they think something is for. And I always encourage people to experiment with what works. But yeah, there's that magical interaction of the flame and the coarse. Oh, yeah. The coarse ingredients. So I get it. I get it. Well, we use black on all of our steaks.

I use red on. salmon, fish, beef. That's like my all-purpose seasoning. That's literally what it is. I use Tex-Mex on whenever we're doing tacos. Nice. Chicken or beef. And like I said, I use this sweet on the pork. Yep. But now I'm curious that you brought it up, what are other people using black for other than beef and steak?

I like, I think it looks good on any red meat because of the color contrast. So you can use it on venison. You can use it on. lamb, sometimes I mix it up. Sometimes people are like, oh, this is only for brisket. Can I, like people think it's only for the grill? Can I use it if I'm pansearing a steak? You're like, yeah, absolutely you can. I mean, definitely black is best at home with steak, so that's what I stick to it with. But I need to get you some of our Cajun because you might like that on your quote too. I have Cajun, but I haven't used it yet. Yeah, I would try it on your pork chops. Okay, I'll give that a try. Yeah. My wife isn't like the biggest hot fan. I actually

I used the occasion once actually on chicken. Yeah. It was perfect for me. It was a little hot for her. Fair enough. I kind of want to try black on eggs. Really? I'm just,

for some reason, I'm so curious what the black would look like on eggs. You know, that's why we came out with red, right? Because black was the only seasoning that I had because I didn't intend to grow a business. It was just like,

ooh, I have this really good idea for seasoning, and I think this is what it should taste like, and I'll just put it out, and maybe people will like it. and then people were liking it so much. They were using it like on pork ribs, eggs, all that kind of stuff. It does not look good on pork ribs.

It is jet black in color, and it just looks like you have absolutely burnt the crap out of those pork ribs. So red is nearly identical flavor profile to black. It's got a tiny bit more heat, but the main difference is the color so that you can use it on stuff. And it doesn't look too confronting. But, you know, I've seen some cool experiments. I've seen people use black to make sausages. And the sausages end up looking like black granite when you cut into them because you've got the pieces of fat and the whole muscle,

pink and white, and then the black processed meat in the background. Yeah, it's kind of cool. Does the charcoal in the black have any purpose around flavor? Or is it primarily for that contrast, the look, the experience? Yeah, primarily for the contrast and the experience. And to help get, when I say, started cooking steaks, and this is what a lot of people don't understand, and it's all trial and error,

we do not have the same equipment in our homes that restaurants have. It is nearly impossible for you to cook a steak on your home stove and get a restaurant result because you're either going to set your smoke detectors off or the flame on your actual stove isn't hot enough to keep that pan hot enough to where it's not going to lose heat to get a good crust. And so the biggest uphill hurdle as I was learning to cook steaks is how do you get that steakhouse? crust and sear without overcooking the middle. And that was the main idea about black, that it just helps build that crust before you get started, honestly.

Well, you know, like eating, consuming food is, it's one like a sensory with your mouth. Oh, yeah. The smell with your nose, look at your eyes. Oh, yeah. So much of using that black seasoning is the look, seeing the crust, seeing the black, cutting into it. the contrast between the black and the red. That for me makes it taste that much better.

How many people do you have over and you cook a steak with black and they are like, Nick, you burnt it? And then you're like, hang on a second. All the time. Right. Like last night, one of the guys that was over that was cooking for, I was putting carnival black on the steaks. He's like, is that all pepper? I was like, no, man. No, like, trust me. Once you try this, you understand. It's just like charcoal. activated charcoal in the seasoning, but you're going to love it. He was mind-blown by it. That's awesome.

Mind-blown by it. I want to talk about the power of cooking with live fire. Because I think that, for me at least, it was intimidating for a long time. Primarily because I didn't understand or know how to control temperature, the heat. It just felt like this variable that I didn't want to mess with. So I had like these graduation steps where it was first propane grill, which I have never been able to do a good steak on a propane grill. And then I went, Trigger, pellet smoker. I've done some great steak, some great meats on the Trigger.

Then I went actually back to cast iron. So I was doing cast iron. And then I was doing like a, I would sear it, then I'd finish it off in the oven. And then I finally, I was influenced by you. I was on your Instagram. And literally, I was watching your Instagram one morning. I went to Home Depot with my daughter, Charlie. We got a $200 charcoal grill, made stakes last night. And from there, I was like, never again will I do anything other than charcoal fire? And from there, it was like, graduated. They got a big green egg and trying all these different things. I love it. Yeah, it's been this evolution, right? But like, what is the power in using live fire? And how can you kind of like help people get over the intimidation factor?

I think the power is the flavor and the control, right? The control that you have, the reason that you probably have never had a successful cook on propane is the same as what I was mentioning about our indoor stoves. Like, you are limited by the heat that that grill will output by the BTUs of the gas, of the propane. And so if it's not getting hot enough, heat is the key to cooking steaks well. Those steakhouses that are getting the absolute sizzle crust are using these insane salamanders. like 1,800 degrees, you know, that that lets them finish them off with that crazy sear. And so when you use charcoal and you pile it up, you've probably seen I always cook with two zone cooking. So I always put my coals on one side of the grill. And that gives me a super hot side

and a cool side. I haven't tried that yet, but I see you do it all the time. Oh, because it makes things so easy, right? Because if you are starting to see a steak, And let's say anything happens. Like, you know, Charlie runs out and she needs your attention. You just pull it to the indirect side. And you're like, it's like hitting the pause button. You can go do what you need to do, then just come back and keep grilling over that high heat. Or if you got like those thick double cut pork chops, you would start by searing over the direct heat, which is going to get the color you want.

And then you move them to the indirect heat, close the lid. And they can finish cooking till they're, you know, all the way through because they're really thick cut. things like chicken wings that are notorious for burning. If you try cooking those all the time over direct heat over that high heat charcoal, it's going to start to burn, especially as the fat drips, it causes more flare-ups. But you get that color you want and then you move them to that indirect side and finish cooking them through. And it's like the most foolproof way to do it.

It's just, it's that thing again about just controlling the heat. Yeah, I got to start doing that. I still find myself in the situation where my flames in terms of, times it gets out of control. Yeah. And then I find myself, I was burning my hands until you sent me those gloves. Literally, my hands with the tongs, like I was. It's brutal, right?

It was brutal. Yeah. And I'm flipping, flipping, flipping, flipping. Try not to burn the stakes. And, you know, I throw the thermometer in. It's like 110, put it back on for a little bit. Flames out of control. Put it back in.

It's 145. Yeah. It just, like, I lost control with just one. flame and not two zones. I think it, look, it is harder to do in an egg. They are designed to cook a certain way. So they are designed to really help you by channeling the heat up, holding the heat in the ceramic, and they're designed to cook with the lid closed.

Although you could put like a half in for that indirect heat, then that'll give you that two zones. You know, you can put the half ceramic in. But really, like, I don't feel like you need fancy grills to grill. You can buy a cheap knockoff kettle grill. at a hardware store. I can't tell you how many times, you know,

we've gone to like Dollar General and bought those super crappy square-shaped tailgating grills because, you know, I do a lot of work with Kingsford and I cook on those for demos all the time to show it's not about the grill, it's about the fuel and the meat

and how you control it. So, uh, I can't help but wonder if you're flaming up because of that big, that, that, uh, circle shape,

but I have the Excel too. Oh, yeah. You must rip through charcoal to make steaks in that thing. I ripped through charcoal. Dude. I ripped through charcoal. Honestly, like a whole 10-pound, 20-pound bag. Dude, no.

Oh, God. Okay. Well, maybe we need a different, the egg's great for, like, for certain things, but maybe we need a different steak solution for you. Yeah, because I got rid of my, like, little $200 Weber that I had. Yeah. Because once I got the egg, I thought, I don't need this anymore. Yeah, yeah.

But that thing was so easy to get going. You know, I had a little chimney. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like you light the chimney, go inside, do your prep, come back out, dump it, and start grilling. Yeah, like you get it going so easy. It gets so hot. Cooked really well. But yeah, I'm blowing through charcoal. It's insane. Because you're getting it so hot and those things, they take a long time to get going. They're great for smoking, though, too. Yeah, it'll be good like when we have the whole BPN team over and we do like some really big grills. And I have that thing filled with. 10, 20 stakes.

Yeah, yep. But I got like three stakes going right now for me. Yeah. Two for me, one for Steph. On this XL. Yes. With the flames heating up on 20, 20 pounds of charcoal. Yep.

You don't do things by half measures, hey? No, I definitely need like, I need a downgrade. You just need options. I need options. We're renting right now, I was explaining. And we have this small little patio. And I had, Steph made me get rid of one because I had my Weber. Yep.

I had my Trager and I had the XL green egg. And she's like, our entire back patio is all of your grilling accessories. That's fair. It's like, okay, when we get to the new house, like, I'll have room. Yeah. We'll have some options there. Make sure you consult with me. We'll make sure you get the right grill for your new place.

That'll be perfect. Yeah, you got it. So talking beef and then kind of options outside of beef, you know, you asked me the question earlier, what's my go-to cuts? Yeah. When you asked me that, I was like, I bet you 95% of people are going to say ribbyes in strips. I'm that person. Because it's a safe go-to. Yeah.

What are like other underrated cuts that people could shop and cook or maybe experiment with outside of strips and ribbyes? Absolutely. Well, like I said, that top sirline cap, pecania, that's that C-shaped one. you see a Brazilian restaurant, you know, when they bring it around on those skewers. Yep. That you can cut into steaks. I think it's fantastic and incredibly underrated. There's a great cut out of the shoulder called the flat iron.

Sometimes it's sold as a top blade steak. It's the second most tender after the tenderloin, but it's very, very reasonably priced, got a great, beefy, nearly sort of mineral-y flavor. There's a sirline flap called the bevet because... I've actually had one of this before. It's just such a horrible name for a steak, though. I've had the bevet. Yeah.

Then the bevette is great if you're doing like fajitas or steak sandwiches. It's got a really, really chunky grain on it. So marinades can really get in there and seasonings can grip in between the fibers of the meat. So that one's a really good one, too, if you like that beefiness. But it will have more chew, you know? Like, it's not marshmallow at steak, right? I don't ever order filets because I think filets are the least fles. flavorful. It's like you sacrifice tenderness for flavor sometimes. Yeah, I used to order

fillets because I wanted the leaner steak. Yeah. And I just realized, like, it cuts nice, it chews nice, but there's really not much else there. And do you try and buy grass fed? I buy grass fed as much as possible. Why? I have to ask. Am I putting you on the spot? I feel bad now. I would say, like, for the health. I would say, like, for the health. benefits. Yeah. But I also know that like there's contradicting health benefits to grass fed versus grain fed. Yeah.

A lot of it, to be honest, is me just like feeling like I'm making a better option for myself. And you are, to be honest with you. Yeah. I feel like now is a great time to just say there is nothing wrong with grain fed beef. It is just that grass fed has some additional nutritional benefits. And I think that we've been taught that one is bad for us. Yeah. So grass fed beef is going to be higher in CLAs, which can reduce blood pressure.

It's higher in omega-3s and it's lower in mono-unsaturated fats. So if those are things you're looking for, then it is a great choice. But there's also a difference, you know, there's a difference in dairy quality. Like I bet the dairy in Pennsylvania, like the milk and the cheeses was like money, right? Different to down here? I wouldn't say like significantly, but maybe slightly, incrementally. And so what's the variable? I think it was like, for me it was freshness.

Like we had, we were surrounded by dairy farms. And grass. Yes. How's your grass looking in central Texas at the moment? It ain't too pretty. Exactly. And that's the nutrition that the animal is getting, that they're converting. It's why you buy that Irish butter and it's bright.

bright yellow compared to a white or American butter. It's what the animal's eating. It's going to affect the flavor. So one of the issues, I think, with a lot of the grass-fed product in the States is that the grass isn't great quality, but it's satisfying that health desire. But when you can get that double edge, which you can, of grass-fed and finished product with great marbling or great grass that it's been eating, It is an amazing flavor experience in addition to having the health benefits.

So it's actually giving you both. So a question on that, what makes for a bad grain-fed cut of meat? I don't know. I don't know what makes it bad. I think grass-fed, grass-finished product has a more pronounced flavor. It's going to be gamier. Grain mellows things out. So most Americans are used to eating grain-fed steak.

The animal gets fatter quicker. They're going to market quicker. It is a business at the end of the day and it gets them to market faster. But I'm sure there's plenty of folks out there that have had a grass-fed steak who are thinking that they're trying to do the right thing to make a better health choice. And it's just been unbearably chewy because the cattle hasn't been finished out as much or it didn't develop any fat whatsoever or, you know, it was a young animal, whatever it is. It was a bad year for grass. So I don't know what would make a bad grain-fed steak. Exactly.

It's just different. They taste different. I guess what I mean by like a bad grain-fed steak. Like say there's a farm that's feeding their cows a poor quality grain. Are there, will that affect the meat in a negative way? Usually that wouldn't happen. And there's a lot of stuff that happens in the meat industry that is better for the meat because it's also better for the commerce side of things.

So you wouldn't want to feed poor quality grain because you're trying to finish that animal out as soon as possible because you want it to get to kill weight so you can send it to market and stop feeding it because feeding it is expensive. Yeah. So if you're feeding it less quality grain, it will take longer to get to the weight you want it to

so it doesn't really make sense to do that. Does that make sense? It makes sense. Yeah. Because I've bought half cows, whole cows before. Yeah, yeah. And when I buy, the last cow I bought was a grass-fed cow, it was significantly smaller than a grain-fed cow. And it took longer to raise that cow on grass.

Being from Pennsylvania, like, when I grew up in Pennsylvania, the grass-fed meat wasn't a thing. It still really isn't. I have a lot of friends in Pennsylvania who are farmers who, like, they never even entertain the option. of grass-fed operations, mainly because they can't make the money they need on a grass-fed operation. Do you think that the grass-fed narrative is blown out of proportion? I think it's all relative. I think that it all stems from us not understanding and therefore having fear as consumers.

You know, when we're kids, we think, you think about what they tell you is inside hot dogs. You know what I mean? And you think it's like some guy like smoking a cigarette, sweeping up meat trimmings from a floor that then gets put through a grinder. Like, it's not unreasonable to think that based off how demystified, how mystified rather, the meat industry is. And I think it's, I think it all connects to the same thing. I think it all connects to the same thing with it is a business.

They have to make money off of it. That's why it's also hard for the states that get snow in the winter. They're going to have to bring in feed to supplement to get that animal up. to weight. Right. It is not that simple a solution, but, you know, whether or not you're talking about meat, are you talking about someone who's feeding themselves just purely as fuel? Are you talking about someone who's feeding themselves? Like when I, I like to still, I think nutrition is extremely important, it's become more important to me as I've gotten older. And also, as I've moved to this country, it's been a real challenge compared to the food in Australia. But

at the end of the day, I'm still collecting taste experiences more than anything else because I'll watch it in other ways. So I'm looking for that grass-fed flavor finish. I'm not looking to just eat grass-fed at any cost, even if it's sort of, you know, chewy younger meat that's not a nice experience. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I think it depends on what you're looking for. There are benefits to grass-finished product. I think as long as people understand that that grain-fed shouldn't be demonized. There's not, there's not something wrong with it. It just doesn't have all of the nutritional benefits that grass fed does. That makes sense. I think when I, when I look at the way, like, I consume meat, because we buy a lot of our meat from the farmer's market.

We go to the Georgetown farmers market. One, I like supporting local, but I also, I like knowing where the meat is coming from. So I'm 70 to 80% of the time. buying my feet, my meat based off the source. I want a higher quality, more nutrition-based source. And the other percent of the time, I'm really just looking for that flavor, that experience. I don't want my meat that I'm eating on a regular basis to taste bad. Yeah. But like knowing where it's coming from, source to quality. I think it's a double-edged sword. Like, it's a noble way to think. And there are some people

out there doing an amazing job of it and regenerative agriculture is important and we need to find a sustainable solution. There's a much bigger conversation at play here. But you also have to look at it through sort of pessimistic glasses and think, all right, there's a lot of people who are first generation ranchers getting into it for the first time. They buy the land that they buy. The grass that they get on their land is the only thing they can feed it. They don't have inless money to have the grass tested and wonder how new, nutritional it is and do I need to supplement. They're having a go at it for the first time and then keeping the animals live as long as they can to be somewhat profitable,

making sure that it is grain finished and then taking it to market. From a quality standpoint, again, how far are they from the processor? Because the animal's going to be stressed the entire time that it's driving to get to wherever it's being slaughtered. That's going to affect things as well. What was the carcass weight? How heavy was it? It just sometimes the folks that are doing it local, and I know this sounds so horrible because I do think it's super important to support small ranches,

but all beef starts off at a small ranch at a cow-calf operation. All beef starts off with someone who has a calf drop onto grass and eat from the grass once it's wean from mom, and then it goes to the next stage of, you know, feedlot or whatever. But I don't think it's, I guess what I'm saying is to me, what opened my eyes is it's just not a simple answer. Like it doesn't mean just because someone bought a farm and decided to become a rancher that they're making great quality beef. You know what I mean? Or they're making great nutritionally quality beef because how do you know that they know what they're doing?

It could be like Dwight Shrews' beet farm. True. You know? And I'm not trying to say not to support your local farmers market, but maybe that just helps someone understand why sometimes the quality variable with what they get at farmers markets is so different, because it's much less regulated. And oftentimes, you know, you know about grades, right?

Prime choice select. So that's an optional thing and it's expensive because you have to have a USDA grader there at the slaughterhouse and they cost a lot of money. So if you're a small holder taking a couple of, heads a week or every couple of weeks to get slaughtered, you might be doing it at a local place that still is under USDA inspection, but isn't graded. That's why a lot of the stuff of the farmer's market doesn't have a grade on it. And then it's harder for the consumer to tell

what the quality is as well. So where do you personally get your meat from? I think most of it's from H.EB, correct? And that's for convenience. They have such a range of what you can get. They have the grass fed products. They do have a Wagyu product. They do have a Wagyu product. They have the natural, which is basically choice. But I also, like the fancy meat, when I go fancy, there's a company called Herden Grace that brings in a lot of Australian product. So this is grass fed. This is what I was saying, that grass fed product that looks like it's prime steaks.

Like, you're never used to seeing that because the two don't match up. Right. And it tastes different. So it's like a fun eating experience because, again, you're getting that grass fed benefit, but you're getting a really different flavor profile. too. We're just collecting steak experiences. I actually have a story about farmers markets. It kind of like reinforces what you're talking about there.

We're in Nashville. The Nashville farmer's market scene was incredible. Yeah? It was really, really good. It was insane. I had something of the best sourdough I've ever had in my life there. I could get raw milk there. Where I get my eggs here in Texas, this is separate.

but a shirtel creek farm. I don't know if you're familiar with them. I'm not. They're like the best eggs I've ever had in my life. It's all free range. They're just like so buttery. But we got to Nashville. We went to this farmer's market every week.

We would load up. And I'm not going to say what the product was because I just don't want to like calling anyone out. But there was this product that was buying there, this food. And I was obsessed with it. It was so good. I was buying it every single week. but this farmer's market there was seasonal.

So I got the farm owners contact information. So yeah, I want to keep buying this product from you. So we stayed connected. And when I needed more, I went out to their farm and I went to go buy some more of this product. And I roll up. And I thought I was showing up to like this beautiful like farm. Like picturesque with a little. Lilo in the back.

Yeah, I imagine like chickens running around, goats and people like waving me in. Like as I'm driving into the house, there's like their kids are running alongside of my truck. And it was a farm that was probably like three acres behind their mobile home. And they were making this product in the mobile home. And I came back and told Steph, it's like, we can never eat this. Oh my God. Ever, ever, ever again. And I just assumed because of this farmer's market, it was coming from like this local.

supported, well-ran operation to realize, no, this is like made in someone's bathtub. We have to stop consuming this. And I'm sure, look, even in that situation, there's usually cottage laws where they still have to have some kind of licensing. But it's a, for a lot of the small guys, the only marketing that they can have against big meat with cheap prices is we're healthier, we're safer. A lot of the fear that we have around meat is perpetuated by the industry itself because it's the only marketing avenue that these small holders have.

Buy our stuff, you know where it comes from. It's better for you. It's healthier. Why? I mean, you can trace, there is a very traceable network of food systems here. Can't trace it back all the way to the farm, sure. But then you have to ask yourself, like, why does that actually matter? So when people ask you, where should I buy my meat,

especially meat that I can trust, what's the easiest go-to answer? You can trust all the meat in the United States because of the USDA safety verification. So everything is in place to try and keep people safe. Like you've had steak tartare, right? Yes. Tartar. I say it weird. Technically, that's not safe because you're,

eating raw meat, it could be, it could be contaminated. But you've never got sick from it because we have such good safety standards, you know, depending on where you're having it, that you're unlikely to get sick. Like, you're unlikely to get sick from undercooking ground beef in the States because the entire process is so regulated by the USDA, the chance of you getting sick is low, and they're just asking you to cook it just to be 100% sure. So, the safety is there for sure. The quality for me, I want things that are cut fresh. So one of the reasons I like HEB is they do train their meat cutters in-house. Like, dude, I've been to other states where I've had to cook, like, from Memphis in May

or have gone to Little Rock to teach a class or whatever. And I am shocked at, like, the quality that's in the grocery stores that's available. I think we're really spoiled by what we have here. So again, it's all safe, but I'm like, eh, it's been sitting there a little while or, you know, the choice isn't much. Like there's no real choice of cuts and there's no real choice of grade and stuff like that. So I think you should mix it up. I think you should try stuff from the farmer's market, maybe find an online boutique. Like, you know, I know, Porto Road sell everywhere. Hidden Grey's still everywhere.

Snake River Farms. Creekstone you can order from. There's a great, if you wanted to try full blood wagu, lone mountain wago. Lone Mountain Wagu out of New Mexico, do mail order. And I think that's a fun way to gather your own experiences with why things taste different and how they can taste different instead of just being limited by what's available locally at your grocery store. Yeah, that's what I like doing. I just ordered last week some Colorado craft beef.

I found this one company. I think it's called Peeler Farms. They're great. They're local. Grass-fed Wagyu, which was really, really good. That was the first time I ever had the bevet cut. And you'll find those interesting cuts on those smaller websites because those guys have to sell the whole animal.

So they're going to try and push the hanger steak and the skirt steak and these lesser-known cuts too. Yeah, that was a struggle actually when I bought my first half cow. I went through the rib-eyes, the strips, the ground beef, right away. And I had like acu buco. I had like beef stew meat. I had flanking style short ribs. Yeah. What the heck are all these things? And it was it was fun because it was trying to find new recipes on how to cook these meats. A lot of them turned out horribly because like they would be too tough. But it was experimenting and it was a great learning experience. Yeah, yeah. It's fun. I even I have

to force myself to do freezer cleanouts down then because I mass too much. And There's just things you reach for first. And I was like, what the heck am I going to do with some strips? Okay. Like meat strips, not New York strips. So you challenge yourself. Yeah, it's been great. I got to share with you that you posted this one recipe,

and we make it twice a week now in our household. It is the hot honey butter chicken. Really? Oh, I love that. That recipe is so next level good. But isn't it a quick. too? It's so quick.

Like easy weeknight meal, big flavor payoff. Oh, yeah. I'm not a trained cook. I just am like I still have my inner fat kid deep inside me. Sometimes she comes out to play. And I love food. So I love, you know, easy recipes that are approachable. And I'm so glad you like that one.

Man, that one's good because we used to always buy boneless, skinless chicken thighs. We really never do chicken breast anymore. We'll do chicken thighs. Yeah. So I was like, all right, I'll try some chicken thighs that have skin on. I cut the bones out. I used corner wore red on them. Nice.

Put them in some oil. Got them real crispy. Flip them over. Added the hot honey butter. Finish them off in the broiler. And I loved them, but like Steph was a massive fan. Yeah. So it was a big win in our household.

Some green onion on top. That's, that's funny. Do you have an air friar? We do, yes. Sometimes if you buy the skin, like I always buy bones. in skin on chicken thighs because you can always take the bone out, a little bit of a pain in the butt. But sometimes I rip the skins off and just keep them in a like a Ziploc bag and I'll cook the chicken. And then I just throw the skins in the air fry. And it's a very indulgent,

amazing chicken skin chip that comes out of there. My daughter would probably actually love that. I should love it. You can buy like vinegar powder, a little salt and vinegar on the time. That's smart. I'm going to try that. Oh yeah. Well, this was absolutely incredible. We probably could have gone for another hour. I know. Sorry, I'd do much fun. But I do want to give you huge congratulations with the new show launch. Thank you. Heartbook carnivore. I know that just launched Monday, right? How's that going? What's the experience been like? It's going great. We filmed it last year. It's on the outdoor channel and we actually already got green lit for season two. So I'm headed out this weekend to film season two, which is kind of just nuts. But it's really fun.

It's just a meat show, you know, whether it's hunting, ranches, whatever. So it's, it's, It's what I love to do and I get to bring folks along for the ride. How many episodes each season? Ten. And how long are you on the road to go film? We film. It usually takes about a week, eight days to film two episodes. So we try and go out in blocks so that we don't get burnt out.

And then we have to wait until hunting season to do the hunting ones. Is it fun? It's so fun. The crew is like, we're like a rag tag pirate family. So it's really fun being out on the road with them. You know, you've got to work with people who you get along with and enjoy. And it is fun. I have a really, really terrible sense of humor.

And I swear a lot. And I'm allowed to do both of those things on the show. I've watched myself here today because I wasn't exactly sure. But I'm allowed to be me. And it's really nice instead of just the plug and play host, like show up here and deliver line. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah, it's exciting.

Well, congrats. Thanks, mate. Jess, thank you so much. Thanks, Nick. Love everything you're doing, the seasonings. I will die saying that Carnivore Black deserves to be on a steak. Heck, yeah. Love to hear it.

Thank you. Thank you so much. You bet.