The Nick Bare Podcast - 097: How to Navigate Your Hardest Seasons of Life with Sally McRae

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

This returning guest needs no introduction, but we will honor her with one. Today I'm joined by Sally McRae for another deep conversation, which is common for us, about the unglamorous aspects of growth, resilience, and character-building. We discuss the vital role of patience, the misconception of overnight success, and the importance of navigating through difficult seasons. Sally and I share personal anecdotes from our toughest times, emphasizing the power of focusing on foundational habits and the often lonely, mundane work that leads to true greatness. This episode is absolutely packed with motivational insights and thoughtful reflections on life, perseverance, and enduring hardships with a warrior spirit. Chapters 00:00 Intro 01:20 Catching Up with Sally 02:56 The Value of True Friendship 05:02 Overcoming Challenges in Racing 08:27 Navigating Life's Toughest Seasons 17:27 Balancing Ambition and Relationships 23:34 Finding Purpose and Peace 50:18 Struggles in Marriage and Personal Growth 51:00 Embracing Physical and Mental Strength 51:56 The Hardest Seasons: Relationships and Family 56:33 The Power of Solving Problems 01:00:03 Distractions and Focus in Life 01:17:45 The Importance of Foundational Principles 01:27:54 Reflections on Personal Journey and Purpose 01:33:38 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Strength, endurance, and wellness supplements to fuel your performance. SAVE 10% at BPN Supps: https://bit.ly/nickbare10audio Follow: IG: instagram.com/nickbarefitness/ YT: youtube.com/@nickbarefitness Keep up with Sally on socials and check out her Choose Strong podcast: IG: instagram.com/yellowrunner/ YT: youtube.com/@sallymcraestrength PODCAST: https://www.youtube.com/@choosestrongpodcast

Patience is so unsexy. People are going to watch the 15, 20 years of work that you've put in, Nick, to build something. And they're like, all right, what's the template here? I'm going to take that. I'm going to apply it here and build up my business and everything that I've done in 90 days. Someone who's never run before can call themselves a coach in 90 days. Why? Because they just stole a whole bunch of training plans on the internet.

And their reels are amazing. Well, it's the patient, hard, mundane, lonely work that actually lead you to your best. self and your best self is the person of character. Character is not built in 90 days. And so when we know what is good and true and what is good and true is doing the mundane work without a camera on our face, with no care for what people think, that's so unsexy and walking through darkness and discomfort because there is greatness on the other side of that. The greatest version of who we are is a warrior, a freaking warrior. We are always. We are overcomers. We were made to be strong and courageous. But you can't do any of that. You can't even

understand what that is unless you walk through some really painful, uncomfortable storms in your life. We are back with a return, return, return, return, return guest, Sally McRae. What's up, Sally? Oh, my gosh. I'm so happy right now. I get to be in Texas. I got to hang out with you and Steph in your babies last night. We went out to dinner. We threw some iron around. This has been a rejuvenating trip for me because I've been traveling so much. I haven't really had a lot of time with friends.

So I'm just like day two now hanging out, feeling so good, so encouraged, fired up. It's hard not to be in your presence, Nick, and not be fired up. I mean, I think that was the whole purpose of this trip. I was like, let's just get together and talk, like creatively. business, all the things. And it's, it's been a good, good couple of days. Yeah, I haven't had, I haven't had many of these, like, opportunities in the last couple years even where normally when I put something on my calendar, even just time with friends, there's an intent, a very clear intent to the day and the timeline and what we're going to do.

And these were just two days blocked off where we were just going to get together. and link up and talk and share our problems and find solutions for like this chapter of life that we're in right now. Yeah. Both in two different chapters of lives, but there's parallels between the two. So it's been really nice to just be able to dive into whatever we wanted to dive into. Yeah. I think one of the things that I've communicated to you over and over again is it's so nice to sit down with someone that actually understands on every single level. And it's the work that you do when you create something. And yours is on a much larger scale. It can feel

lonely sometimes. Extremely. Yeah. And so that's what I value so much with your friendship is, you know, I think in life, it's easy to be surrounded by lots of people. And, And for me, I'm always traveling, doing events, whether it's racing, speaking. And it's wild to think about how you can also feel lonely even being surrounded by so many people. And when you meet people who understand you, and in a way have very similar goals, messaging, passion and are putting in hard work day and day out, I'm like, those people are like gold. Like, that's a gift. And I think for a lot of us, the older that we get, we realize we're like, man, I only really need like a handful of like really good friends. It also keeps things less

complicated. But I've always considered you one of those persons. I mean, we met in 2021 and it was like immediately we deep dived into an awesome conversation. It was our first podcast. And, yeah, we've been friends ever since. But we actually planned this weekend, if you remember, it was when you were pacing me at Western States. Yeah, that's right. During my horrible performance. But it was so much fun now. But it was so much fun. Like, I remember, like, that actually is kind of what helped me get over after I had to sit with myself for a few days and just look at, like, the absolute crushing performance that I, that I had going on water for 50 miles because I had a blasted system from doing the 200s. But then I look back on Mike, I don't think

I'd trade that because you and I got to talk for 10 hours straight. And we literally talked the entire time. The entire time. And even as you were hurled over throwing up, I kept talking. I remember we were on the trail. We were on the trail. We were on the trail. It's probably 3 a.m. It was dark. You're hurled over puking into the bushes. I'm still talking to you about some like motivational life transformative experience. And these people are passing behind us. You guys good? Like we're good. She's just throwing up. But we'll see you guys on the other side. Like no questions asked. You know what I loved about that too is sometimes when I explain the tough parts of my experience in a race, people think, like, dude, that's,

that sounds so hard. Like, that sounds painful. That sounds like miserable, so uncomfortable. And I have had so many of those experiences throughout my whole career. I mean, I've been racing professionally for over a decade. And at this point of my career, I'm looking at my, like, dude, that's like the easiest part of my life. I know I'm going to be okay. And I remember coming in when I, man, I was so excited that you were going to pace me. I thought we were in a freaking jam. And I come in just haggard, not having eaten anything forever. But I remember thinking, I'm like, this is like, this is such an amazing opportunity to see that even when I can't keep stuff down, that when I don't feel good, I can still move.

Like, that's amazing about our body. And so I leaned into the experience that I was going to have with you and was sure. and it was so appreciative that you gave your time, which is so precious, knowing everything that you do day in, day out. And I was like, I'm going to focus on that. And I think that's the power of our mind. You can be in so much discomfort. But if you flip your perspective and focus on what is good,

what you're grateful for when it's right in front of you, I mean, I had the best time with you. It was so much fun. But I ran 50 miles on water. Now, as a coach, I'd never ever encourage, you know, someone to go and try and race that way, but as a human, just speaking to what the human body is capable of doing, oh, we're capable of so much more than we think. And having done the 200s last year, I knew when I was not keeping anything down, I was like, oh, I'll get to the finish line.

It'll be uncomfortable, but I'm either going to focus on the discomfort or I'm going to focus on the fact that my friend left his home, his job to come out here and run with me in the mountains to help me get to the finish line. That's what we're going to focus on that experience. And the conversation that we had, I remember going home and thinking, man, I'm so grateful that God put Nick in my life because I feel like you're one of the few people that really understands every single piece of all the seasons that you go through when you're building something. You know, building a brand, wanting to get the best out of yourself. And I think that's why I'm here today, too.

We're like, let's keep that going. I remember during that time frame of when you were racing Western States, shortly before that I had a conversation with my pastor who was in Nashville, Pastor Lyle Phillips, and he talked all about finishing a race. Just finished the race. The application to your life as a whole. And he explained how you're not always going to finish strong, but you always have the choice to finish well. So regardless of what you're experiencing in life, and in this case, an act.

actual race, no matter what obstacles you experience, what resistance, if you're hurled over puking in a bush, it's so easy to quit and stop. Yes. It is so easy to use that to justify why you're not going to finish. But you will feel so much better. You will learn so much through the process of finishing well, even if you can't finish strong. I think Western States for you was a very clear depiction of a,

finishing well. Because when you finished Western States, I mean, from the time I picked you up to the time we were approaching the track coming across the finish line, I mean, you were in a world of hurt, a world of pain, even though we talked that entire time, that entire time, very deep, meaningful conversation. But as we came onto the track and then McKenzie joined you, you guys finished well and strong. And it was an amazing experience to watch you guys finish that race together. Absolutely amazing. And hand off the torch then to your daughter.

Yeah, that was pretty classy of you. I don't see that a lot in racing. I mean, you had run with me the entire time. And then I didn't even know that you, I was like, where's Nick? And I was like, okay, yep, Nick is just being Nick. He's stepped into the shadow so that my daughter can have this moment with me on the track. you can even cross the finish line. I had to call. I was like, where's Nick? He needs to be here at the finish line with me. But man, what a signature of your character. I appreciate that. Yeah. Oh, it meant a lot to me just all across the board. And I think one of the things that we discussed, I remember telling you what all my symptoms were. And, you know, I knew in April leading up to Western States, my system wasn't great. And when I was talking to my coach, he's like, dude, Sally, you're so gritty. I know you can kind of push through anything. you're hitting your workouts.

We're going to hit that goal. I was really hoping for like a 19-hour-ish race. But I just wasn't feeling like I had ever felt in my career. And I thought, you know what? I'm just going to go and see what happens, which I think sometimes when you just put yourself out there, sometimes you hit it out of the ballpark and you're like, wow, like I kind of didn't deserve that because I wasn't feeling great.

And other times you just, it doesn't go well. However, even when things don't go well, we can still learn from that. And I remember, because you have so much knowledge and nutrition and the body and everything. And you're like, yeah, you probably want to go get some testing done. You probably want to go do this and this and this. And I did that. And I felt so, so I went and met with a doctor and felt so much better throughout the summer. And then when I did the Project Mammoth, I mean, I had zero problems with my stomach.

That's great. I'm just throwing back G1M and gels. for the whole 200 miles. And I was like, okay, that's probably one of the things that I should have done going into Western States. It may have turned out differently. But I count both things, both Western States and Mammoth Project, is wins because of all the other blessings that came out of it.

And I know you and I, I mean, we've talked probably like 100 different topics in the last couple days, which I've so appreciated. But, you know, I shared with you this year in my opinion, when I'm looking at meeting a performance goal, I failed in every single way. And then even in a business way, had a lot of painful losses, whether that was in relationship, not finding out I can't trust someone being deceived and things just tanking, not fun surprises. And this is all like business stuff. But, you know, training so hard for Western States and not doing well. And I remember even when I was out here. When I was traveling out here, I was on the plane and I get a text from Eddie about something

going on in our business. And I was like, well, that's super bad news. And 2024 has been a whole year of me battling my response to every letdown. And one of the things you and I had talked about is, you know, there's a lot of letdowns that we have in our life, but you can't always talk about him because it's, you still have so many blessings in your life too. And so it's like weighing out, like, how do I like walk through this when I see so many good things happening in my life? And over here, I'm like bleeding. And it's, but where I'm bleeding is a space where most people don't understand. And so I was so happy when I touched down in Austin. I was like, Nick is my friend. I know he's going to understand all this. And,

And I think applying that, especially to everyone that's listening right now, the people in your life that know you and understand you, it will always only be a couple people. And that's okay. That really know you. That really know you. It does not need to be everyone on Instagram. It's okay if not everyone knows you.

But having a couple people that have known you in every season in your life and still choose to love you, still choose to show you grace and walk alongside you, man, those people are golden. I'm going to just encourage you right now. Make sure you tell them that. Make sure you tell them thank you. And it's so important because people, and we're supposed to be connected, right? Like we're supposed to do life with people.

I mean, that's why we're here. We're made to love one another, and we find greatest fulfillment in serving other. but we also experience great pain when we have good intention and people hurt us, even when we have good intention. And I think, you know, you showing up for Western States with your crew, showing to give your time, and run freaking slow with me too. I mean, we ran so slow. It was like sad. I was like, man, I really like envision Nick and I just like hammering, like turning on some music and just And it was my favorite section. Like Forest Hill to the River is so fun and fast.

And in training, I was training with Lynn Chen, who is from China. At the time, you know, she was top ranked. I think she was actually like in third place before she dropped out at mile 80 of Western States from some feet issues. But, you know, we did that section. It's like roughly 16 and a half miles. But we did that section in less than three hours. We were hammering that.

And I remember thinking like, dude, Nick and I are going to tear this up. And yeah, it took us a lot longer than three hours to get down to the river. But I was just thinking, I was like, you know what? People that go the distance with you, when you show up and someone has an expectation of what it's going to be like, and then you tell them like, hey, it's actually going to be terrible. And we're like, we're going to go into the night and it's not going to be fun. And it'll probably be everything that you don't want it to be, but yet they still go with you. Man, who are those people in your life?

Keep them close. Well, I remember sitting at Forest Hill waiting for you. And I was fueled up. I was stretching out. I was like in the zone. I was dialed. Yeah. And then I saw you come up across the hill.

And I could tell you were hurting. And then we went into Forest Hill. and we met up with Eddie and McKenzie and we got some food in you and we took off. And from there it was just one foot in front of the other throughout the night until the morning. It was so much fun.

It was so much fun. I would do that over and over again. We had so much fun. Conversations. It was a very unique experience and I thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. Here's a question for you that I'm very curious about.

We're both type A people, very driven to achieve. And there's a lot that we want to achieve. There's a lot that we pursue. We have big goals. And we know that in life, that social connection is so important. But from people who have such huge, ambitious goals, oftentimes that social connection is minimized or sometimes eliminated.

How have you navigated your life in terms of pursuing achievement and pursuing your goals and also trying to maintain this social connection with real people, not online in terms of followers and comments and engagement, but actual real social connection. knowing how that is super important just for our physical, emotional, mental health.

How have you navigated that over the years as you've pursued achievement as a professional athlete? Starting my day grounded in God. I love people. I feel like from the time I was a little girl, I remember teachers would say, you know, Sally loves a smile, she loves to laugh. And looking back at my school years, I do remember I was the kid that was like friends with everyone in the class. It wasn't just this group of girls or just these couple people.

It was, I loved getting to know people. I've always been very curious about people. I think the home life that I had growing up, it was at times very dark and painful, but I also had a mom that exhibited this strength, love, had a very strong faith. I think that I was kind of forced into this need to be able to read a room, reading a room, feeling, intensity, emotion before things exploded. was in a way how I survived. And now as I'm older, I realize that I have been put in a lot of positions

where I get to be around a lot of people frequently. And I've always wondered about that because, you know, as a professional athlete, that was always like a dream of mine. As a professional athlete, yeah, I'm out in the mountains, I'm training, I'm in the gym. But from the time that I was signed, it was only like a year in, Nike came to me, and they're like, hey, you're a coach.

And yeah, and they had me, you know, doing these live events, you know, athletes, 100, 100, people would come, and I'd coach four days a week in L.A. And they're like, you know, we're going to put you on the app. And so now you'll put the Nike Run Club app and I'll coach you through workouts. And then they're like, you know, we'd like for you to come and speak. So I've had opportunities to speak at headquarters. And, you know, actually I'm just fresh off of a big shoe as a movement director where my job is to work and to communicate with people.

Most importantly is seeing who the talent is, identifying who they are as people and encouraging them. And most often they're going to hit the shot if you see the value and they know that they're important out there. I've also had a career as a teacher, as a coach, you know, out of fitness business for a long time as a trainer and a run coach. You know, we do a podcast now. But I think over the years, what I've learned is like your audience can grow.

You can be around like a lot of people. What is important is that if I only find value in approval from people and what they think of me, their evaluation of me, it's really weird how lonely that can be. And so, you know, my faith is the compass in which I navigate life. And I really believe that each person is given abilities and gifts that match their purpose on earth. It's not always easy to navigate from day one. I feel like I'm always, like, growing. I really desire to know what that is. But when I'm operating in a way that I feel is like my purpose in being here,

man, it just makes that a lot easier because I'm not worried about whether or not people approve of me. I'm working wholeheartedly is unto God and not into man. And so whatever the outcome is, whether the whole world hates me or I'm completely shunned or, you know, I'm disapproved, you know, by this group or this job or whatever it is. It's like I know that my value doesn't change. I know that God doesn't change in the way that he sees me. And he sees my life from beginning to end. And I think that is what what helps me navigate that is just that laser focus. And I can't control everything. I can't control the outcome of a race.

I can't control the outcome of business or how I'm going to be received. But I can control how I respond and what I think about, what I think is important. And what I think is important is that my life glorifies God and all that I do. How is that compass you referred to? How has that become calibrated over the years in terms of who you let in your life? and who you don't. Because if I look back at the last just few years of my life, especially building a business.

And as you build a brand, you build a platform and you experience more exposure, a lot of people want to attach to your life and what you're building and what you're doing. And it's really easy to say yes to a lot of people because they want to join the movement. They want to join the mission. They want to join you in what you're building, what you're doing.

And it's really easy to say, yes, come alongside and join. But if that compass isn't calibrated based off of values and beliefs and what you truly believe in, that's authentic to you, you allow the wrong people to join you. And that can throw your entire trajectory off course. So over the last couple years, my compass personally has become, more calibrated, where I'm very careful, maybe not necessarily careful, but I'm very intentional with who I allow to come alongside to build what we are building together, to make sure that we achieve, I want to say success or outcomes, but it's really like the impact,

the mission that we are wanting to achieve. How have you seen that calibration of your compass, change who you allow in and who you don't. And potentially that's why this journey becomes very lonely at one point. Yeah, man, that's a great question because I think what I've learned in my journey, and I had said this before, you know, I started working so young, so I've had a lot of experience in so many different industries. I've had a lot of work experience in different careers. And I know that a lot of the message, in our world today is about like find yourself, live your best life, um, fulfill all your dreams. It's,

a lot of it is me, me, me. And I see myself as, as flawed. I see myself as I, I can, I can work with all my heart towards something and find out that I'm working towards the wrong thing. And it's taken me years to understand that doing good work and, and as you're saying, which I think is so important to think about the people that we surround ourselves with. Good things aren't always marked by how much money you make from it. It's not always marked by how good looking somebody is or what their status is in society. I think that good work is really defined by how we serve other people, regardless of whether or not I'm going to get a big paycheck out of it

or if I'm going to get more followers out of it, or if people are going to like me. And I think that's the hard work. That's really hard to choose what is, you know, I think that it isn't, like, my moral compass isn't always right. Like my personal, like, I'm going to do this because this is what feels right to me. That has let me down a lot of times. and as individuals, part of what shapes us is our personal experiences.

And some of our personal experiences are very traumatic. And they're filled with pain. We can unknowingly respond to people, even people that are nice to us. We can respond to people in ways that are negative or we avoid certain situations because long ago something hurt us. long ago there was a response that we got from someone else. So it was so painful, we're never going to do that again. And I have missed out or hurt other, you know, I've missed out on opportunities or even hurt other people

because I've so protective of what feels right to me. And if I focus so much on what just feels right to me and this idea of like, well, this is my own personal truth, man, that is going to create so much confusion and unrest. I'm always going to be questioning what I'm doing. I'm going to live with regret thinking when I come to the other side of something being like, why didn't I see that? Oh my gosh.

Or like that actually was like a really good opportunity. Or like, why did I judge that person so harsh? I don't even know them. And I know that, you know, I'm definitely not a person to put on a pedestal. I have great flaws and imperfections. I have things in my life that I wish that I would have never said or never done. And I think that's also what keeps me coming back every single. day to the feet of Jesus and being like, what do you have planned for me today? Because

there's a lot of things that I want to do. I'm curious by nature, wildly curious by nature. I have pursued like everything that you think of. Like when people are like, what do you do? It's like, well, I do like literally 10 different things right now. It's not just a runner because I'm just really curious. And as I've shared with you, it's like I'm at this point in my life where I'm like, but am I actually doing what I'm supposed to be doing? am I so distracted by all these things that are actually successful and good and they're like bringing in money and my business is exploding? But like am I actually doing what is meaningful and impactful and is actually serving other people? Because when I'm done, the money stays in the bank.

The materials are going to rest and fade. It doesn't matter how big my house is, how shiny my car is, or if I have a million followers, what am I doing that when I get up in the morning gives me peace? And the only thing that gives me peace is knowing that God is my compass instead of how I feel. God is my compass, that's sustainable. That is, that's never changing. God never, ever, ever, ever changes. And I think that's something that we long for. We want stability.

I think that people that love control, it's like it's one thing that I know for sure is like the sun rises and it sets every single day and that God says, who he is, is who he is all the time. And the way that he thinks of us will never, ever, ever change. And when my life is chaotic, I mean, I literally said that, I texted this back to Eddie. I said, God always takes care of us. Historically, like, I can actually stand. I used to hide my story. I was ashamed of people finding out all the things about me and putting me into this box of she's damaged. She's, you know, she's probably got a lot of baggage, can't navigate, you know, all the

things that you kind of look at when somebody's abused, they've lost a parent as a child, they started working, you know, I mean, all the things. And he used to hide that part of me. That was those person experiences, those stories. But I look back and I'm like, now as an adult, as a grown woman, as a wife, as a mother. And I see that that is very much a part of who I am. and God uses all of it. And I'm able to say here that God never, ever left me in the midst of that.

And that sometimes we go through really, really painful situations with even people that we love so much, people that we thought cared about us, that we trusted, that will betray us and hurt us. those moments when we lose everything, whether it's physically, you know, financially, it's a job, it's a dream, it's this, all the crushing. I have experienced all of that. And still in the midst of that, I can find peace and I can find joy. And I never, ever have to doubt that. I do not doubt that God cares about me and no matter how big the storm is, that I'm going to be okay. And so when I work with hard people, when I am surrounded by a lot of people. I mean, I'll be honest, I have not told this story before. The year that Nike reached out to me, I was in a really bad place in my

marriage. I had been hurt so deeply in the church. I was a women's director in a church. It was my dream job. I thought, if I'm going to be used by God, then I need to be standing on the stage in a church, because that's what I'm supposed to do. But God tells us, like, no, you're supposed to be a light in the world in the darkness. And I'll tell you what, I was in darkness. I don't want to go to church anymore. I didn't know if Eddie and I had a future. And then at that time, I was running too. My kids were little, and I remember Nike reaching out, and I remember the first thing I thought, I thought, they are such a big brand. They're like a glitzy, bright, shiny brand. If I sign with them, I have to kind of

come out of this dark cave that I've built around myself. I had stopped talking to my friends. All my girlfriends stopped talking to them. I don't want to go to church anymore. I want to talk to anyone. And I thought, why on earth is Nike reaching out to me? I'd had some good results. I'd won some races. A few weeks after Nike had signed me, you know, I won a golden ticket, raced at Western States, got in the top 10, felt really good about that. But I always kind of like look back on my experience with Nike and I realize, as soon as I was signed, they're like, you know what, you coach. We're going to put you out here in front of all these people.

And we also want you to come up to headquarters. We're going to put you on the stage. You're going to speak to all these people. And I look back on my life, I'm like, for as much as I have wanted to hide, there is something that God created in me from the very beginning. And that is this, I love people, I can feel people, I want to encourage people. And I'm supposed to go out with all this pain that I've experienced to my life. that sounds so crushing, but I believe that when we are broken, our capacity for compassion increases.

It's in our brokenness that we really understand what it means to be strong. Because this idea that God doesn't give us anything we can't handle, sometimes he gives us so much that it crushes us that we realize our great need for him. I could have not gotten through many decades in my life without God. all my whole entire life. And so now I'm at the point in my life where I'm like excited at opportunities to be around people because I don't go into a room hoping that people see me, love me, follow me, or know who I am. I look and I say, God, give me your eyes and your heart, tell me how I can love in this situation.

And when you walk into a room without the expectation of like, I hope I can impress people. And you throw that out the door and you're just like, I'm going to see how well I can love these people. That's your work. And Nick, you know better than anyone. I told you this many times. You're one of the hardest working humans that I know.

And I see that up front. You share a lot about your work that I know you don't share on social media, a lot of the mundane day in and day out. And I think that when you are laser-focused on your work, work. And this is the goal. The goal is to get to the finish line. It takes endurance to get to the finish line. I'm going to focus on that goal. And my goal is to love and encourage. It's okay. All the other things fade away. And with that comes this burden of needing people to like me. I don't care. I don't care if nobody on the planet likes me. And I think that's part of like

why I came out. It was like the beginning of our conversation yesterday. It was like, damn, Nick, I'm like at this place where I just want to go live on the side of a mountain and just write. Like, if I could take my phone and throw it into an ocean, I would, but so much of my work is online. So trying to navigate that.

I'm not so concerned with views and subscribers and followers as a reason for value, but if I can use the platform as an opportunity, to love and encourage people, then that makes the word good. I know a lot of our conversation yesterday was about navigating hard seasons and chapters of life. And the word hard, it's relative. It has different meaning to everyone, right?

Like what's hard for you might not be hard for me and vice versa. If you look back at your life, what is the hardest season you've gone through? And sometimes it's hard to answer because we have recency bias. So what we're going through right now probably feels like the hardest season. And if I look back at my life over the last two decades, I experienced this severe eating disorder when I was younger. I started a business, joined the military, went to ranger school, got stationed in South Korea for nine months, got out of the military,

scaled the business, struggle with that. My mom passed away from cancer, got married, have kids now. There's all these different hard, challenging seasons and chapters. And sometimes in the moment, it feels like this is the end. But this two shall pass. And months and years go by and your perspective changes. And what was hard once doesn't seem like it was. too hard any longer.

But if you had to look at your life as a whole, what was the hardest season, you would say? I almost want you to answer that first because her conversation was so great yesterday. And you really encouraged me. I mean, I think for me, and this is potentially reason to beaise, but I think I am in the hardest season of life right now

where I'm running a successful business that is growing and scaling that is connecting with a lot of people and providing a lot of stable jobs for individuals and their families. I'm married and learning how to be married and build a relationship while also being a father to a daughter who's just over two years and a son who's just over three months and trying to navigate and understand how to balance being a really hard, working, active founder and CEO, business owner, leader, but also a very present father and husband

in being ruthlessly ambitious in my work, but also content at home. And it's really, really hard. And from the outside looking in, you know, I share glimpses of it online of me and my daughter sharing a rib-eye bone-in steak at dinner or the family going to Waco for the weekend. and my son laughing for his first time. All these things are great, but those are the highlights. And life isn't just the highlights. It's filled with a lot of stress and struggle and hardship.

And it's hard to say, it's difficult to say that right now, the season I'm in is traumatic because it's not. but it is hard. It's challenging. And it's figuring out where to lean in and where to lean out and where to spend time and where not to and what to say yes to and what to say no to because you're being drawn in these two different directions. And I don't think we ever get it right.

It's never going to be perfect. I'm sure years from now I'll look back and say, I should have done this a little bit differently. I should have spent more time here or less. time there, I'm sure years down the road I'm going to be navigating those decisions that I'm making right now. But I think we do the best of our ability with the answers we have right now to solve the problems we're experiencing as good as we can and really leaning into a foundation of faith and values and beliefs. And if we have that firm foundation, we can make the best decision is possible. But I would say that right now, this is the hardest season of life that

I've experienced. Ten years from now, I might look back and say, eh, it wasn't that bad, but when you're in it, it's tough and it's hard. What about you? I think that yesterday, when we were chatting about tough seasons, what really resonated with me is, you know, we live in a very online world. People will come up to you. I'm going to use you as an example, Nick. And they genuinely think they know you. I know you experience that a lot.

Just people come up and they might even allude to little moments that you've had with Charlie or step, you know, something that you did because it was posted. Yeah. Right? We really believe we know somebody or can evaluate their character based on 30 second reels and photos that many times are beautiful or cool. And I think that putting, just kind of putting out there, like, here's all the things about me

that a lot of people know about me. There's all these, like, blessings that I have. But, like, there's a lot over here that's also who I am. that one, it isn't always wise to put that on social media. And there's no reason to. There's no reason to just expose every single inch all the time. And I think that's where wisdom and discernment come in, why the importance of having a community, mentors, teachers,

like people that you can really do real life with. It will always only be a few people. And I think that sometimes, is where the loneliness comes in is when you don't have that at all, and then couple it with feeling like you don't have a foundation either. And I explained to you yesterday, I'm like some of the roughest seasons of my life are when I did not believe that God had good plans for me. Because when I looked back on things that weren't going my way, right? Like I definitely, look at a lot of what I wrote my book about. So it's the first 18 years of my life. I mean,

by the time I was 18, I did not want to live anymore. And I had more of like a, kind of like an obsession with just wanting to be in heaven. I just was so obsessed with like, I just, like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to be here. I don't want to be here. And I would just pray all the time that somehow like, God, God, can you end my life? Can you do it peacefully? I can never think of actually like taking my own life. But I was like always just praying that God would rescue me from the pain in a comforting way. And that was the loneliest, hardest time in my life because I thought, man, you look at all of these pieces. Everything's going wrong. Everything that's been taken away from me.

And I want to believe that you say that who you are and the way that you, the way that you love me, but that's like really hard right now. And I think that when it comes to faith, that's kind of like where people come into the crossroads. Is I, yeah, I want to believe that that is actually like good and true, but like life hurts so bad. There's just like no way. There's no way. And for me it was, that is. actually where my faith was strengthened because I was like, I'm either just going to like throw this whole thing down the drain or I'm actually going to step out in faith and like believe that all of that is true and that you actually do have something good down the road for me. And I'm going to just put hope right at the forefront. I'm going to hope that the best is yet to come, that you are going to use

this pile of what I think is just mud. And then you actually are some. where down the road going to use that for good and that how I see myself, how I feel about myself, that someday I'm going to see a little bit of value in me. And now, here I am, 45 years old, and I look back on that and I'm like, oh my gosh, my life from the very beginning was never a waste. It was never in vain in every single season in my life, no matter how painful and how hard it was, was actually creating and carving out a character in me that would be used for today. And no matter how much something hurts,

and I told you this year has been really hard, and I have not always responded well. I haven't always reacted well. And in August I went to Eddie and I was like, you know, one of the things that I am dealing with is I'm finding I'm having a bad attitude a lot. I'm upset, I'm down, like these things keep happening and I'm wondering why and I'm losing faith in people that I

thought were my friends or that, you know, we're good people to work with and it's just bad news after bad news. And, you know, we've lost a lot of money and but yet a lot of good things are happening. I'm just like, I'm in this swirl of like something's got to change. And the resolve, I kind of, I've laughed at myself. It's like, I always know what that is. It's like, how much time have you been spending with God in the morning, Sally? Like, where have you been starting your day? And it's like, God, it isn't always that.

But paying attention to my reactions when things are really, really tough is painfully telling of what I see is valuable and what I'm putting my hope in, what I'm putting my trust in, what I'm putting my faith in. Because if I'm putting my hope, my faith, in trust into things that are external and things that are temporary here on earth, man, I am going to be miserable. But what I long for is that right now in this season, I really want to be able to walk through a storm and still have joy. Because there is so much to be joyful for. and one of the most joyful things that I know is that no matter how bad things get, I 100% believe that God is not only going to use it for something greater

and that I will be stronger when I come through it, but I'm actually going to be okay because my life is so short. Life on earth is so short. And I actually do want to get to my finish line, absolutely haggard, beaten, all used up. I want to be all used up. but I can only be all used up if I walk through every season in my life and not only the seasons that feel good, not only the seasons where like people love me and I'm making all this money and everything I do is successful and I'm standing at the top of the podium. I mean, that's easy.

I mean, when things are going good in my life, I don't need God. I don't need like some compass. I don't need like faith. I don't need to start my day in prayer. I don't even need to be aware of maybe some really bad scheming that's going on around me because, like, things are good. I'm in control. But I've learned over the years and going through those seasons that that's actually when I have to be most aware. And I actually told Eddie at the end of last year, I said, you know, things are like growing and things are like going really well. And I know I need to be even more so prayerful because it's when things are going really well and I'm just so confident in who I am, in my strengths in figuring things out.

I mean, you and I had chatted about this. I feel like, Nick, you have a history of figuring things out and executing it on a level that is like out of this world. I mean, you do it well. And when you are raised, in my situation, I was raised to be independent, strong, and to figure things out at a very young age. I literally don't know how to do life another way.

I mean, my first few years of, like, being married to Eddie was really hard. Because I actually didn't know how to ask him for help. Depending on him was, like, really scary for me. I was always like, I got it, I got it, I got it. I mean, it landed us in counseling where I literally sat across from Eddie, and the counselor's like, why would you respond to Sally in this way when you could see her hurting? He's like, because she's always okay. and she always communicates that to me.

And I was so crushed. I was so crushed by that by someone who thought that I didn't need him ever. I mean, it almost destroyed us. But it's also then very easy to translate that in everything I do. I got this. I can handle, I can figure it out.

I'm strong enough. I mean, God built me to endure physically and mentally. I have not been injured in over a decade. and I always thank God for that. I do not doubt if I walked out this door that I could go and run 100 miles. I can go around 100 miles. I could go 200 miles. Like that's the least of my worries.

God made me strong. I acknowledge that as 100% is unto him. I'm supposed to use that to get for whatever it is that he wants to use it. And for whatever reason, he put me in the place of ultramarathoning. And I've gotten some medals out of it, but it wasn't to glorifying. glorify myself, but it was because you wanted to use me for something greater. And so if I can build this platform and give a good message, I can encourage other people, awesome. But the worst seasons in my life have nothing to do with me as a runner or the races that I'm in. Those aren't hard seasons.

It's just in all of my humanness. It's in relationship. Relationships are probably the hardest things in life. When I think about the relationship that I once had with my dad, that was really hard, very painful. It's very painful, especially when I have my daughter and my mom wasn't around, to know that my dad was still around, but not interested in who I am as a person. That will never love me, encourage me, be there for me, speak good words to me. or even speak kindly about me ever. That is painful. That's hard.

Barfing my brains out with ulcers on the back of my heels for 200-plus miles in the desert during Kokadona 250, and we did a film about this. That wasn't hard. It was temporary physical pain that, you know why I got to that finish line? I believed and knew I could endure it. I knew when I crossed that finish line I was going to heal. I was going to be okay.

And I was relying on the truth that I know for my entire life. I know that there is a time and a season for everything. And when we are in the thick of the storm, when life hurts so much, it is so hard to actually believe that there's good on the other end or that things are going to change. I mean, when Eddie and I went through our hard season, I mean, I 100% did not believe it was going to get better. 100%.

I was like, there's no way. There's just no way. But he was the one that never, ever, ever gave up. And the only thing he did it is just he quietly prayed. And he was immovable and unshakable and unconditional in his love. And I had never seen that from a man in my entire life. He loved me when I pushed him away. He loved me when I was mean to him and said very hurtful things to him.

He just took it all. all and love me through it. Steady Eddie. Steady Eddie, man. And that is a beautiful picture, I think, of God's love. That's what real love is. You know, it's enduring. And I think the when things hurt so much when life hurts when we're in this season, it's really easy to have doubts that it's going to get better. I'm really curious how you like tactically how you walk through a storm and maintain joy and hope. It's not every step of the way, especially in the beginning. That is for sure.

Eddie can tell you that. It's a process. I'm actually really excited to have dinner with Eddie tonight. I am too. To learn more. But I was sharing this with you yesterday because we had, you know, a lot of our conversation yesterday was about navigating these hard seasons of the life. Yeah.

And I was sharing with you this podcast I recently listened to from Alex Formosie. And his was mainly around business. And building a business. I think the title of this podcast was how to make more money and be less stressful. So the title. We all need to listen to that, apparently. The title of that podcast isn't necessarily applicable to the message I'm trying to share. But the message is it has parallels between what we're talking about right now.

navigating hard seasons. And when we try to navigate hard seasons or chapters in life, there's two different approaches you can take. One, you can look for new opportunities to potentially distract from that hard season. I'm good at that. I think we all are. Because chasing and pursuing new opportunities is typically the more fun. energetic, exciting, exciting route to take.

Yeah. And it's almost like, let's take this hard season that we're experiencing and just tuck it away in the back and go pursue this new opportunity, which temporarily will provide some relief. So that's one route that Hermosie kind of explains that most people pursue. The right option that we should lean into, though, is solving. problems. So if we're in a hard season, instead of pursuing opportunity, and he calls it missed opportunity, we should actually look at what problems we're experiencing and try to solve them. Because if we solve those problems, that hard and challenging season might

improve, or at least our perception of that hard and challenging season will change. and improve. So everyone's pursuing missed opportunity, which is the fun, exciting route, we should actually try to solve the problems we're experiencing. Because if we solve those problems, we then can navigate out of that hard, challenging season. But if we chase opportunity, we have temporary relief, but we're creating more problems on top of problems. We're not solving anything. We're just delaying this massive ball of just mess that one day we're going to have to unpack and fix and solve. And it's going to be so hard and it's going to take so long to actually make our way through that challenge.

So I think that's one way to tactically navigate hard seasons. Let's solve actual problems instead of pursuing new opportunities. And that's something I've been thinking about a lot recently in terms of my family. professional career, personal life. What problems am I avoiding to solve? And how am I distracting myself with new opportunities and just tucking those problems away? Yeah.

I love that. I think that was one of my favorite parts of our conversation because I totally gel with you on that as far as it's very easy to keep pursuing things, especially in your position where you're given so many opportunities. I mean, a little piece of what you have to do, Nick, is manage all the opportunities that are given to you. Someone who has to say no all the time is like to other people, that's a dream come true.

They want that. They wish they could say no all the time to opportunities. They wish they had one opportunity, right? You're at a place now where it is very easy to grab a hold of whatever sounds amazing, fun, exciting, new. I think we can all agree, you know, our listeners too, like the beginning of a of a romantic relationship. It's the best. Like those first few months when you're really getting to know each other and you're like falling in love and you're like, this is amazing. And like sometimes there's blinders on

our eyes when it's rolling out and you're really falling in love. But it's, that's so fun. Like you kind of get a high on that. Like getting to know someone. And you see that too is people are, you meet a lot of people over the first time or trying out running for the first time. For the first they're building muscle. For the first time, they're discovering like, dude, I'm a lot stronger than I thought I was. Like, I never believed that I could do something like that. That is so exciting. It's so exciting to discover and to find out not only what we're capable of, just like what feels good. And yeah, that is, regardless of what level we operate, what career that we're in, I think a piece of it too is,

man, we're so insanely distracted. So distracted. And we are given opportunities to distract ourselves more than ever. And I think that most goals are not achieved because we're so distracted. And we can do that to ourselves. We can take on all these amazing opportunities and actually distract ourselves from the one thing we should be focusing on. if we divide up all of our energy and our gifts and our resources into 10 opportunities, when there's one thing if we invested in that, if we pour our ourselves into that, we pour our

resources into that, that would be like the most amazing, fulfilling. That's it. But the problem is, and I experienced this, the things where we were talking about, is when you're doing all these things and a couple of things like hurt really bad, or you've been hurt, or it's failing doesn't seem right. It's like, yeah, I'm going to, okay, we're going to get rid of those things. Or I'm just, okay, let it fester a little bit. I'm going to start two other things in place of it.

I'm going to increase time like over here. So then it's like managing what you're doing, adding in other things to keep you feeling good. And it's just chaos. We live in a life of constant distraction and chaos. And the idea of focusing on one thing. And the thing that is good also means that we have to go through all seasons with it. See, there's nothing on earth that's perfect. There's no such thing as a perfect season.

There's no such thing as a perfect athlete, having a, you know, is always perfect, always winning every, hitting every single training session all the time. We're not perfect in any area of our life. We don't like that feeling. The feeling of failing, the feeling of being uncomfortable. of being not liked, even just the feeling of just this trolls and the meanness that they put out. It's like, we know that there's no value in that, but it's like we feel our humanness when people are mean to us, strangers.

So it's navigating all the pieces, all the seasons of our life and saying, I'm okay with that. And I think that's kind of where I am right now. You know, when I sat down with Eddie, I was like, I have to get rid of like some of the things that I'm doing and be okay with being very uncomfortable. And this is, we can always use running and the training is a parallel. I think that's why I love it so much. So there's a lot of good and we learn about ourselves

when we go and train for a marathon. But that is not what defines our value. And that is not what life is about. applying that to the good work that is ahead of me and saying this is going to be uncomfortable and I'm still going to choose to walk through it. Man, that is so hard. And the steps that need to be taken, it involves patience. But man, patience is really difficult. Patience is so unsexy. I mean, you tell anyone, okay, we're going to train. It's going to require a lot of patience to build up to this distance or to this strength. Most people don't want that. You see it all the time.

Give people, like people are going to watch the 15, 20 years of work that you've put in, Nick, to build something. And they're like, all right, what's the template here? I'm going to take that, I'm going to apply it here and build up my business and everything that I've done in 90 days. They see that all the time. It's disgusting. That someone who's never run before is can call themselves a coach in 90 days. Why? Because they just stole a whole bunch of training plans on the internet and their reels are amazing. So it's, it's, it's frustrating when someone says, well, it's the patient, hard, mundane, lonely work that actually leads you to your best self. And your best self is the, is the person of character. Character is not built in 90 days.

It's character is not built by stealing somebody else's business, by stealing somebody else's template by pretending to be someone else. That's just a lie. And that person will never be fulfilled. They will always be unhappy. I mean, that is the truth of all time. We can give you millions of examples of that. And I think that's the world that we're stuck in. And so when we know what is good and true, and what is good and true is doing the mundane work without a camera on our face, with no care for what people think, that's so unsexy and walking through darkness and discomfort, because there is greatness on the other side of that. The greatest version of who we are is a warrior, a freaking warrior.

We are overcomers. We are made to be strong and courageous. But you can't do any of that. You can't even understand what that is unless you walk through some really painful, uncomfortable storms in your life. And you know this as someone who has served. I mean, the story that you told me about how many times it took you, it was one of the most inspiring stories when we were running along,

to get to the leadership that you were, I'm going to say it wrong, so I'm just going to. Platoon leader in the army? Platoon leader. And you had that, the guy that gets to test you, and he basically said, I'm not going to sign you off because it took me a long time. The Ranger instructor in the Mountain Phase of Ranger School. failed me because as an officer, he believed I had greater opportunities than he did as a

enlisted soldier. One of my favorite quotes actually is that the public will praise you for what you practice in private. And I firmly believe that, which kind of reinforces what you were just saying. This morning I saw this quote that said, pain does not exist. And I saw this and I thought on it for a while. I was like, I do agree with this. And then I didn't agree with it.

And I think I do agree with it again because pain only exists if you give it a voice. And I believe that when we're going to these hard seasons of life, whenever we experience any amount of pain, which if we are living human beings, we're going to experience discomfort, hard things. But just because it starts getting painful, it doesn't mean we have to stop, give up, quit. And we can give pain, however you describe that

or perceive it, we can give pain as much voice and influence as we want to. but I believe that's a personal responsibility of how you control and manage pain. Pain management, not just physical pain, but mental, emotional, physical. Pain overall pain management and the way that you manage pain is potentially one of your greatest strengths that you can exhibit as an individual. And that will dictate what you achieve. the outcomes you experience, how well do you control and manage the pain, whether you give it a voice

or not? I think that's a super powerful just thought process around pain in general. I mean, one of my favorite topics to talk about, and not like in a masochistic way, but I feel like I've read that quote before too. It made me very thoughtful thinking about like, okay, what is he actually trying to say? And it's like, if you, give it life, it would be very hard for me to say that pain doesn't exist to like an eight-year-old that's been abused by. And that's where my thought process went to. It's hard. I didn't feel right saying that pain does not exist because I know that people go through painful situations in life. And it's, it's. But I track with you what you're saying. Like I agree with you. It is, and I think,

I bet this is what the quote was meaning is like it's, it's the value in which we give it. It's, it's the focus in which we give it. So if that's all that we're focusing on it and we actually then become it, I think people can, when they are in a lot of pain, they just think that that is what life is. Like, I am living in this. I am feeling it. And I don't like it. And so I think that quote is powerful because it kind of makes you think about, I mean, we can say a few different words in that. I mean, people can say that joy doesn't exist. And and anxiety doesn't exist. And it all kind of comes back to our perspective,

what we think about and how much value we give it, whether or not we're going to give it life. You know, we started off talking about the Western States, and when you were pacing me and I said, I just leaned into the fact that you were there. My friend was there, and you were okay with running with me when I was so uncomfortable. That was amazing.

That didn't take away from the fact that I was hurting. And again, it was a temporary physical sense, but it's just, I also could have just been like, Nick, can you please not talk? Like, I'm just going to focus on how bad I feel. And I've absolutely done that in my life. I've given pain so much life, so much control over me. And I don't think that's a good idea. So this idea that pain doesn't exist, it doesn't exist to rule our life.

It doesn't exist to paralyze us. It doesn't exist to crush our spirit. Maybe a better way to phrase it is, you control the power of pain. Yes. I like that. Pain can exist. I like that. But how much power, how much influence do you allow it?

to have over your life. 100%. Because that's where I struggle with it too, is thinking of the people who actually are experiencing pain. There's a difference between the pain that someone is experiencing in the hospital, stage four cancer. Right. It's taken over their body and they can't control any part of that.

Yeah. And then there's the pain you're experiencing when you're 20 miles into a 26.2 mile race. Yeah. Completely different. levels of pain. One is all encompassing. The other, you have the ability to control the power and the voice that it influences over you. It's the ability to gauge what type and level of pain it is.

But I think too many people bucket pain in one bucket. and it doesn't have levels, it doesn't have echelons. And as soon as they start experiencing it, complete shutdown, give up, quit. And it's a dangerous position to be in because you will never get to any point of life that you are trying to achieve any outcome that you want to experience because the smallest amount of pain will cripple you. Yeah, I'm yesterday. we were kind of talking about how it's common that we see on social media people talking about

pain and suffering in their training for, you know, a race. And the way, the intensity in which it is communicated, especially when it's like a young kid, you know, that, you know, has $200 shoes and, you know, makes thousands of dollars from brands to post these reels. And it's just they're talking about pain that is like so deep. And like I'm always curious, like is this from a place that is like a real life? Lesson, like is this person like really been through some hardship and there?

Is this like that parallel? Or is this it? Is this the hardest thing in life that 20 mile run? with some surges in the middle of it. And I think when I, having traveled around the world, and I've had the opportunity to sit and live in orphanages across overseas, visiting Poulsmore prison in South Africa was one of the most eye-opening because there's men who have been put in prison for stealing food for their family

and have been in there for six months without even a trial. When I think of pain, there was so much healing that I had after losing my mom, stuff that I went through with my dad. There was actually this, my eyes were totally open. When I went in, I worked in orphanages, and I visited juvenile halls and prisons, and you see pain in such a raw way. It is actually a way of life. It is dark.

And it's so full of hopelessness. And here I come walking in, and I'm thinking I've been through something hard. I mean, just like you were saying, it's relative, it's different for all of us. But we don't even know unless we get out there and we go out into the world and we open up our eyes to what is all around us. And so sometimes this narrative of like, wow, my marathon prep is so hard. And they finish the race. And like, that's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And I'm like, amazing.

Now go apply that to your life. Go apply that to what is good and true. Go apply that and like serve other people with that and see what happens. See what happens when, you know, this is another little piece. And I always feel I can be so vulnerable with you, Nick. When Eddie and I were going through like our really rough season, I remember him actually saying to me, he would try to talk to me in all like these different angles. And like one day he was just very overwhelmed with sadness. And he says to me,

he's like, you know, you always encourage other people to keep pushing when it's hard to endure, to not give up. And I feel like it's, you're giving up on us so easily. Oh, now I didn't take it that way immediately. I want to just like blow up and just, yeah, I hate. Yeah, I hate. hated that more than anything. I hated it so much because it was true. And I feel like an attack probably. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we did, there was a lot of, just a lot of tension. But I took that and I've always known one thing. If something hurts so deeply, then go away alone from it and actually sit with it. Why does that hurt so bad? And really, really, realizing that like, man, my training and what I'm doing in these races, that is a incredible

opportunity. That's a gift. That's stuff that I get to do. And I learn a lot of lessons in that that I get to apply to my life. But if I am working and I'm training my body and I'm learning all these things about mental toughness and how I can get stronger, but yet I don't apply them to a life that is real, what am I doing? That's foolish. I'm wasting my my time. And I think, you know, as I navigate my life, those are the lessons I'm always learning. When it's hard, am I creating character or is it just absolute chaos? Am I choosing to do something because it's going to create character in me or because it's something that looks cool and the people are going to like me? Or I'm going to make some money off of this?

It's not easy to choose the path that creates character. Because a lot of times it's unpopular. It's unsexy. There's not really like a lot of external applause that you're going to get because of that. But who we become on the other side, that's invaluable. One of the things that I believe is absolutely essential as we're navigating these hard seasons of life is maintaining foundational principles, habits, and routines. And where I see a lot of people go wrong is when something becomes challenging and Thursdays

off course, they throw everything out the window. You know, you can be dialed in with your fitness, your health, and your diet. And the smallest change in your life, if you allow that to disrupt, up to every other part of your life, that just compounds. I see it happened to so many people where there's a stressor that pops up and they go from eating a healthy diet to eating fast food for every meal. They stay up late. They start drinking.

Their sleep takes a hit. They stop going to the gym. They stop running. So this potentially small stressor in life becomes this massive. a stressor in life and disrupts everything that they're potentially working towards and achieving. So true. And you shared a story with me last night, me and Steph, where when your kids were young and life was chaotic and Eddie was working long hours, you were saying some days Eddie would leave for work, he'd come in the evening, you'd still be in your pajamas and the house would be a mess.

Oh, yeah, a lot of those days. But you guys would put the kids down. Yeah. And then as the kids were getting put down, Eddie would put a pot of coffee on. And you guys would drink coffee and watch 24 at night. I love you, remember all the details of that. Yeah. And that made me just think of, you know, the importance of maintaining these foundational principles

and habits and routines to ground you. and maintain some sort of level of stability in your life. That's what diet is. That's what fitness is. It's with health and training. But if you can make the intentional decisions that as you're navigating hard chapters, don't allow it to disrupt every other part of your life

and the power of maintaining routine and responsibility and habits. will provide you so much strength to get through that hard season, maybe not faster, but healthier. Yeah. What was the importance of that pot of coffee late at night with Eddie watching 24? Oh, man, I love that you remember all those details. I do have to, I'm going to speak two things. Like the first thing, what you're talking to when life gets hard and a lot of your routines go out the window. Man, that is something I'm still working on. And I know I could always.

do better in. And I feel, I like, I felt that so many times in, in my life. And so much of it comes with the mindset. You talk to a lot of people, too, they're like, it, everything just feels so heavy. So preparing a meal like that is too exhausting. I can't, I, I don't want to go to the store. I don't want to chop up the food. Like, I'm, I'm driving through Taco Bell. Right? I don't want to get out of bed in the morning because the world hurts. So that morning run doesn't happen because I want to stay in bed until the last minute that I absolutely have to get up. These are very real for a lot of people.

Like people live that day in and day out. And it's very easy to become a hamster on the wheel of drudgery. and so much of that is intertwined with a sheer lack of hope. I'm just going to stay where I'm kind of at this place where I don't have to feel at all. I'm not going to the store. I'm not making food. It's just too hard. That's too heavy.

I don't want to get up early in the morning. I don't like the feeling of being tired. And what that is to push my body, I don't want to feel my body. I just don't want to feel it all. And I think that that kind of hits it on the head. When we're in a painful season, we just don't want to feel that anymore. It's the worst feeling, especially when it's very personal, especially when it involves something that is so precious to you. When I was writing certain chapters of my book, which my book took 20 years to write, because I put it on the shelf over and over.

I didn't have a lot of confidence writing. The one person, the only reason why it's published because of Eddie. And when I would write on particularly difficult chapters, I would not eat very well at all. And Eddie knew this. I would eat gummy bears and drink Americanos. And I would sit and write for like 10 hours straight. And I would do that sometimes for two and three days straight. And the library in Huntington Beach is a library where I grew up.

And I grew up going to it. So whenever I, and it's a huge library. It's like three or four stories. It has this basement. There's like indoor waterfalls and plants all around. It's so beautiful and it's so nostalgic. And I remember vividly being with my mom and my siblings there. And so that's where I would love to go write my book.

Because I would just visualize. I would just like be in these stories. And I was so in these stories that I was telling. And this is particularly why I wrote the book and the fashion that I did. The chapters are short. You could read the book probably in like two days. It's written on a very elementary level. It's because I would, I transported myself back to all of that.

And it was such a hard place to be in. And so on those days that I was writing for 10, I would go to library as soon as it'd open. Library closes at 9 o'clock at night. I wouldn't train. I was not eating while. I wasn't drinking water. It would just,

and I was in gummy bears. And I remember, and Eddie knew this about me. He would see me on Live 360 that I was, I was at the library and he would say, have you eaten anything today? And I would like take a picture of like the gummy bears and the coffee. So it was just sugar and caffeine, right? Like I just need to like just keep writing and just kind of be in this. And I just, doing anything else was so hard. I was feeling the weight of these stories that I was writing. And he would always come and find me. And he would be. bring me food and he would sit with me and he'd make me smile. And he'd like snap me out of this like cloud that I was in. And he'd put his arms around me and just say like, you're going to be like,

I'm, I'm so proud of you. Like, let's get this thing to the finish line. Like, part of it also was like, dear God, please finish this book already. You know, it's like, I don't want to, I'm tired of hearing about it. And like all of your struggle with it was like such a struggle always, always. because I knew that publishing it would still come with pain. I knew I would get critics. I knew certain people would be cruel to me and would definitely downplay my story. And I would tell Eddie over and over,

I don't, I, like, I can't handle that. Like, I can't handle going back to that pain or being rejected in this story that I kept journals for, decades of these stories. But I do believe that my story is not meant to be hidden, that no part of who we are, no matter how terrible it is, no matter how bad the season is, if we see it is meant for a greater story,

for a greater purpose, it will be worth it. And to this day, since that book has been released, every single day we get people that send us messages, write as handwritten letters has nothing to do with running. It's people say, thank you. I feel like I can forgive again. I feel like I can start again. I feel like I'm seen.

So being in that like letting go of like my structure, like I feel that so much at my core. Because like going back into a place that's uncomfortable, yeah, I'm still figuring out how to be like healthy in that. And I think that's always what keeps me longing to grow, to be better, always longing for what God has for me. Because I know there's a lot of work still to be done in who I am. And that's also what gives me hope is like, I know I can get stronger on this. Because for every hard season that I've been through where it's been uncomfortable and everything is falling apart, you know, I'm not eating right.

I'm not doing, you know, the training that I should be doing and I'm not sleepy. well. It's like, okay, we're going to walk through this. We're going to be really aware of how you are in this. And we're actually going to tackle why you're like that. Why do you treat yourself like crap when everything hurts? Well, there's a lot of reasons. But I don't believe that's what meant for what is meant for us. So I love that you speak to that because it's in those times that we should be most aware that we should fight to take care of ourselves. We should fight to be strong and to grow and to believe that as we go through that, we need those things and we will be stronger on the other side.

Yeah, I think it's why I can say I think I'm pretty resilient through hard, challenging seasons because. Yeah, on another level. When things get uncomfortable when my life gets thrown around, I really lean on those foundational routines and habits. Yeah. And I know how important they are. And if I wake up at 4.30 a.m.

I go for my morning run. I have set the conditions to succeed and be resilient for the day, no matter what that day is bringing me. But if I allow this discomfort and this challenge and this hardship to disrupt that routine, I know the compounding effects that I'm going to experience in the negative consequences that come with allowing myself to just fall apart. And I believe that's one of my strengths is being resilient in hardship. 100%. And I, you know, I've reiterated this before, but you are one of the most enduring, hardworking

humans I've ever met. And it's so important that when we see things about ourself that are constant throughout our entire life, so we can look back when we're little kids. And we can understand, sometimes it's like, from the time as a kid, I've always loved that. You know, like you meet people. I was like, I've always loved fishing. I'm thinking of the fishing story now that you told me last night.

I've always loved fishing. I've always loved playing the piano or like, this has always been easy me. I've always been interested in cooking. Like these things that were just drawn to, these passions that we have. So like we have these abilities. But there's also characteristics that are about us that from the time we're young, that are pretty consistent when you talk to people that know you. And so like I know for me, like from the time I was little, like people always said,

you have a really loud laugh. I can hear your boom and laugh from all over. And, you know, people's opinions of my laugh, you know, it's all over. It's been a characteristic of who I am. My mom also had a booming laugh. My daughter has a booming laugh. I love that. I love that's a part of who I am,

even though it can be a little disruptive sometimes. I love that that's not like something I can change. There are certain things about me that I understand that God instilled in me that helped me get through things in my life. And I think it's easy when we kind of settle into things that we're really good at, you know, whether it's a musician or an athlete or, like, you've settled into this career and you are excelling, that we create kind of like this bubble of like,

this is what I'm supposed to be doing, and it's all about me. And I think that when we are given a lot, there's a reason for that. There's a reason why some people have a lot of abilities and very specific characteristics, not everyone is just so naturally resilient, especially the degree and the level that you are. I also believe that it is meant for so much more than weights and marathoning. Yeah, I agree.

Right? And there's something very exciting about that. That's what I've always wondered. When I got into ultrasas, I mean, one of the top questions that people have asked me, they're like, like you were a soccer player. I was also signed when my kids were four and six. I was a woman, a bomb signed at 34 years old. Okay, that's not really common by one of the biggest brands in the

world. Now, now at this age I look back, I kind of laugh. That's kind of comical. It was, you know, I don't consider myself the best in the world. I don't even consider myself a great athlete. I do know how to work hard. But I see that. is like a gift. What was that meant for? What was that opportunity meant for? What I do know to be true is that from the time I was a little girl, everyone always said I was high energy. I could go, go, go, go, go, and I was strong. I've always been physically strong. I've always been able to run forever since the time I was a little girl. And I'm at this place in my life where I'm like, what was that meant for? Well, if it was meant for simply to get to where I am today, to

be a professional athlete and to be able to run in the mountains all over the world, like, yeah, that's been fun. But the most fulfilling aspect is what is a result of that? It's the people that are put in front of me. It's the experiences. It's that platform. What am I doing with that? That's where the fulfillment comes, because I'll tell you what, there's a lot of people in my sport who are greatly unfulfilled. And they're making a lot of money. And they have a lot of followers. and they're winning, but they're not fulfilled. And I can say this just across the board. Success and money are not what make us happy.

The happiest, most joyful people, they know their purpose. It's not because their bank accounts are filled or because they look great or they have all these achievements. It's because they are operating within their purpose and why they're here. And their lives are being fulfilled

because they're pouring into others. Well, Sally, it's always an amazing conversation with you. It is. And I feel like we could always keep going. I cannot believe we were supposed to start a workout like half hour ago. That's okay. If we're working on, I'll get done. The food will get eaten.

Oh, my gosh. Nick, I so appreciate you. I appreciate you. I really do. Thank you for being my friend. As always, this was a great one. Yeah. I enjoy your friendship.

I enjoy your mentorship. and I'm looking forward to our next one. Agreed. I'm looking forward to what's ahead. There's a lot of good ahead. Lots of great stuff. Yeah. Thanks, Sally. Thank you.