The Nick Bare Podcast - 110: How to Train for Your First Marathon With Jeff Cunningham

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

In this episode, I'm bringing back a crowd favorite, Jeff Cunningham, to discuss essential strategies for training for your first marathon. We cover the importance of easy miles, weekly speed workouts, and structured long runs. Jeff shares his philosophy on the 80/20 rule for easy versus hard runs to maximize adaptations and avoid fatigue. The discussion also covers the significant role of nutrition and hydration in performance and recovery. Jeff and I emphasize the importance of fueling properly before, during, and after workouts, and relay personal experiences to illustrate the benefits of structured training and proper nutrition. This is not for first timers only, this conversation is filled with practical advice and inspiration for both novice and seasoned runners.CHAPTERS:00:00 The Reality of Marathon Training01:44 How to Train for Your First Marathon06:31 The Importance of Easy Days and Recovery15:10 The Austin Marathon Experience22:29 Making the Commitment to Run a Marathon48:41 Building Fitness and Loving Running50:56 The Reality of Marathon Prep01:01:07 The Importance of Easy Miles01:16:48 Incorporating Speed Workouts01:27:48 The Role of Nutrition in Training01:31:31 Fueling for Performance01:37:36 Balancing Diet and TrainingBecome a BPN member FOR FREE - Unlock 20% off FOR LIFEhttps://www.bareperformancenutrition.com/pages/bpn-membership?srsltid=AfmBOorlpjVeag2kkt3eZ5UpWcFA5Bb2v5V_93lmO47Vn_Y8DRdLwDLLBat City Track Club is an emerging national class and regionally elite team with a primary focus on distances 5,000m to the marathon.https://www.batcitytc.com/MENTIONS:The Nothing that Is: A Natural History of Zerohttps://www.amazon.com/Nothing-that-Natural-History-Zero/dp/0195142373FOLLOW:IG: instagram.com/nickbarefitness/YT: youtube.com/@nickbarefitnessJEFF CUNNINGHAM:IG: instagram.com/@jdcunningham97/BAT CITY: instagram.com/@batcitytrackclub/

You're not going to wake up motivated every day. And especially in a marathon prep as mileage increases, the wear and tear on the body increases, you become more tired. You start questioning, why am I even doing this? You have to go through that mud at some point, because when you cross the finish line of 26.2 miles, it's all going to make sense. Why?

Because the days that matter are the days you don't want to. Nobody ever got good in anything without going through the mud. If you just loved it every single day, if you woke up fired up about going through the inevitable monotony that it takes to be good at everything, it takes repetition, right? Then I question whether or not you're actually truly investing in what it takes to be good at something. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the podcast. Today we have on a fan favorite Jeff Korn.

Cunningham. Jeff, what's up? Man, not a whole lot. Excited to be back. Everyone always loves when you're back. I love when you're back. The conversations are great and there's guaranteed. I'm so excited for the one-liners that come out of today's conversation. I promise. I've never rehearsed a single one of them. I believe you. I don't have a filter sometimes between my cerebral cortex and my mouth and stuff just sort of gets blurted out. I believe it. I believe it. I believe it. I apologize for anything I say. No, you're good.

So the title of this episode like I shared with you is how to train for your first marathon. And the idea, the concept, and the goal is to provide people some resources, tools, guidance, mindset to approach maybe not their first marathon, but one of their first races. And this is coming off of the heels of the Austin Marathon this past weekend, which I want to talk about because that was such an amazing experience and pivotal just weekend for the brand and the team. But I was having a lot of conversations with people at the Expo, the Shakeout Run marathon day itself. And there are a lot of people saying that it was. their first half marathon. It was their first full marathon. And one of the biggest key takeaways I left after that weekend was sometimes it's really easy as we're creating content, we're having conversations to curate what we're saying around our own personal goals. So as we're going

after these more, maybe not even elite running times, faster running times, faster marathons, we start speaking to our audience like we're speaking to ourselves. And I think we at times do a disservice to people who are just getting started. And I think this is an opportunity to share stories, share insight, guidance, like I said, to the people who are just getting started of how, where, when, what to do to pursue that first race, that first goal. Yeah. And it's really interesting because I share your sentiment that I tend to have my conversations. And as I coach longer and I coach more people, a lot of my interactions and a lot of the podcasts I go on talk about how to make somebody who's already fast or somebody who's already experienced sort of hit that next level.

And I don't want to get away from my roots, which is. is taking entry-level runners. And it started when I was coaching at the high school level and it's progressed into coaching marathons and adults, which is take somebody who hasn't done it before, whatever it is, running track, running a marathon or whatever, and get them to their first starting line, feeling prepared and feeling that they're being supported

and feeling that they're getting what they need to succeed. I likened it earlier. I was talking to the guys out front. at some universities like my alma mater at Baylor, a lot of the heads of the department and the long-term tenured professors are required intermittently to teach freshman-level courses to sort of remind them, hey, this is where it starts, right? And everybody has to start from somewhere. And so this is an exciting podcast for me because I'm fired up about talking about, hey, how do you get to your first starting line? And what are the things that we need to be mindful of?

That actually brings me to an interesting point before we dive in. You know, you being an experienced runner, having accomplished a lot of running goals, being a very established running coach, you took some time off from running and now you're running again. Why? I missed it. You know, and you're being the generic person. You're immersed in this environment and you're coaching people. And I'm also seeing people sort of kickstarting their fitness journey, their running journey, their marathon career, so to speak. And I just thought to myself, why not?

Let's jump in. And so I ran the Austin Half Marathon, and that was the first big race, really the first race I've run in 11 years, believe it or not. I was 39 years old the last time I actually went to the starting line in a big race. Do you miss it? Man, I had fun. Yeah, a little bit. I had fun. I had fun, man.

It was good. Coming down, the home stretch and looking at the finish line, and I thought, man, this is pretty cool. Then my right hamstring grabbed, and then I was reminded that I'm 50 years old. It'll happen. Well, it's probably because I need to eat more go gels and use more G1M sports. Stay hydrated. Yeah, I got to do a better job. I got to practice what I preach a little better, I think.

What are you relearning now that you're running again that is transforming you as a coach for newer runners? Stay out of the gray zone. Keep the easy days easy. Don't press on those easy days. I fall victim to it. I was in a scholastic system that celebrated it. I was in a collegiate training system where you would gray zone a lot of your easy days. And a couple of months ago, I fell prey to pressing just a little bit some days.

And I laughed to myself and I thought, you spend so much time telling people not do this. And here you are. And so I really enjoyed, for instance, today's run where, I mean, guys, I ran 8.30 pace most of the run. And I might have been running eight flat pace, but like the last month. mile on a five mile run. And I was completely comfortable the whole way. I actually got lost in the run. And I was talking with you about it, about how I felt so running competent today because it just felt so good and easy. I just stayed out of the gray zone. You know, I was zone two, low zone two, most of the run. It was fun. It was easy. Yeah, zone two is so so popular right now. It's very well

talked about it. There's a lot of education around it. And I think it's because of, I don't think. I think we know it's because of social media. And social media being this direct resource to a lot of people. Right. There's more education online now. But I'm curious from your perspective back when you were running in college, where people understanding how important it is to run your easy days easy. No. And I think if we look at some of these elite elites like the Kenyans, they have always run their easy days easy. And that's why they're the best of the best. they have always done the right things right. From curious, like your experience in college,

what the education around true zone two was when there wasn't this direct line of communication on social media like it is today. Not much. There are three major things that we didn't really address or discuss, keeping the easy days truly easy, the importance of sleep, which we literally did not understand.

to understand than in the 80s and then in the early 90s when I went to college, if you didn't get enough sleep, you would be sleep e. If you got enough sleep, you were not sleepy. That was it. We didn't fully internalize, and I know I didn't, that it actually had a physical impact on how you would actually run, right? So keep the easy days easy. The importance of sleep for recovery and performance, right? And then diet, like really be thinking about the quality of the calories that you are ingesting and not just the quantity. We knew that it was important to eat healthy to a certain degree, right?

I mean, we understood that, but we really didn't understand the importance of diet to the degree that we have it dialed in today. And I think that that's one of the big changes you're looking at the proliferation of records at the NCAA and professional level at everything from the 800 meters all the way up to the marathon. Yeah, we can attribute a lot of it to technology, shoe technology, which really does help. But man, rest, recovery, diet, all these things that we just understand so much better now. And it applies to first-time marathoners too. And that's, I think, what we need to stress here today is it all translates.

But I think we can touch on a lot of things here today. about what we don't need to be getting hyper-fixated on either to where something takes on a level of importance that might not necessarily be as important right now when you're just first trying to get started and get to your first starting line. We'll address a lot of that. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. I think this is a really exciting time to start running and sign up for one of your first races because what I'm seeing is people of all levels of experience, ages, running backgrounds, they are getting faster and faster and faster. We are seeing people cut significant time off their marathons. I've done it myself.

And it seems like the gap between what was once elite and what was once amateur is closing in because people are understanding that it's just not raw talent and God-given ability anymore that allows you to run faster. you can manipulate all of these variables like sleep like diet like training mindset all these things and you can close that gap from what was once elite and amateur but even greater than that is you can shape off significant time race after race after race by manipulating these variables

I think there's probably a lot of people who are listening to this podcast who are familiar with the Boston Marathon and the way people qualify for the Boston Marathon. Exhibit one as to how that sort of gap, so to speak, or how the times are getting faster occurred, is that Boston had to drop the qualifying times by five minutes this year. And so in the youngest men's age group to get into the Boston Marathon, you have to run under 255 now to be able to get in. And then, you have to run even faster than that, probably more like 252, right? That's wild. To get into the Boston Marathon now.

And that elucidates the point. People are training hard. People are focused. People are dialed in on strength, recovery, diet, and then intra-race fueling, which, of course, BPN is leaning into that. And we are investing in it and teaching it as we go. And it's just sort of incredible to see what's happening right now. in the distance running world. And when you're talking about, you know, what used to be sort of this

big gap between, quote, professional runners or elite runners, or however we want to characterize it in amateurs, you know, I mean, some of the people I'm coaching now, it's interesting watching them go from having been, you know, three-hour guys, you know, now I've got, you know, a bunch of guys who were looking at running in the 220s, one of them in the low 220s. He was a 305 at your first, the very first BPN marathon, that was January 2021. 201. Right? 305 that day.

Now we're looking at low 220s. And all of a sudden, that gap is starting to close. Why? Hydration, nutrition, working hard, investing in the science of running and not worrying about, okay, well, how much of my performance is just going to be solely based on God-given talent, right? What I'm saying is everybody has a glass ceiling at everything, whether it's being the best rider you can be, whether it's going to be the best, you know, pot holder nitter you can be, right? But everybody's glass ceiling is higher than most of them realize. So we have to raise that glass ceiling and then we want to try to get all the way up to that glass ceiling, which means strength train to your glass ceiling, hydrate to your glass ceiling, fuel to your glass ceiling.

psychologically prepare to your glass ceiling, and then all of a sudden that performance is right at, right at something that could be considered incredibly elite. And that's what we all have the capability of doing. In every aspect of our life, we're going to be run focused here today. But like I said, it can be any endeavor. We all have a glass ceiling.

Let's raise it and then let's get to it. Yeah, it's also just the belief before ability. Oh, God. You have to believe that you can actually go in, achieve 100%. And sometimes you need that first race under your belt to realize, oh, I can actually, I can actually do this and I can actually get better. And with each incremental and additional race or goal you set, you just chip away.

So I briefly want to touch on this past weekend, Austin Marathon, 2025, BPN showed up in absolutely amazing, not just. just numbers and vastness of people, but just like energy and driving that culture, that environment. This was the first year we were partnered with the Austin Marathon in this type of capacity. Last year, we gave out go bars and field bars to everyone who checked in for the race. This year, we fueled over 23,000 runners on the course. our go gels, our electrolytes,

were the only on-course nutrition. And that for me is very significant because, as I've already talked about and mentioned, 2018 was my first marathon ever. It was an Austin Marathon. I ran three hours, 57 minutes. The year after that, I ran slower, same marathon, four hours, 15 minutes, roughly.

So now, 2025, seven years after that first marathon, which happened in Austin, Texas. And that was the spark that shifted the trajectory of BPN, our mission, our interest, our passions to become a performance endurance brand. Seven years later, to have our products on course, it's surreal. It's an amazing experience and opportunity. But then to see literally thousands of runners on course wearing the shirts and the hat,

and the apparel and the gear, it felt like the BPN marathon this past weekend. It was crazy. It was wild and incredibly motivating and inspiring. And honestly, for me, obviously, having been associated with the brand now for several years, I know this sounds like really, really sort of corny to say, but I was standing there in the corral about to go off. And honestly, as your friend, I was just so proud of you, man.

I appreciate that. Like, I'm seriously, what's been built. And then in the days before at the Expo, Harris actually standing up on my arms, just the community and the enthusiasm and the inspiration, right? and people coming up to the BPN athletes and telling them about how their story had inspired them and how their journey had inspired them. And people came up to me and I'm running my first marathon or, hey, this isn't my first marathon, but I just appreciate everything that BPN is done because I'm so much better now

because of it, you know. Wow, what a weekend. What a weekend for the brand for the community. what a weekend for running. And then the performances were just outstanding, too. I mean, the races were fast. People up and down the line, up and down the course were cheering. And there was just a lot great that came out of this weekend.

And if you didn't get fired up, if you didn't come out of Austin Marathon weekend fired up, then you might need an extra shot of espresso or something. I don't know. I can't help you. I know. We're probably biased because Austin's in our backyard. Of course we're biased. But the Austin Marathon is my favorite.

The energy compared to any of the race I've been to is unmatched. People like want to be there. They want to be racing. They want to help you. It doesn't feel cold or stale. It just feels different. It's a great event, you know. And I, you know, the community rallies around it and the energy on the course.

I mean, I came down the hill, you know, four or five miles, and then you get to six, and then you hit downtown and you turn left and head toward the seven mile mark. That tunnel of humanity that you run through at that corner, I had witnessed it several years as a coach and as a spectator. But you guys got to understand. Old coach haven't running races in a long time. So I came down that hill and I was just sort of hitting the face in a good way with just the energy. And in fact, the young lady who I was running with, who I coached, she kept tugging on my shirt because I just, I just started hauling ass, man. And she was like, coach, we got a long way to go. You probably need to take it easy because I was, I mean, I started rolling through there because just the energy just propels you.

It was just fantastic. That's the best part of the course. And then for me, hitting the age station there, and I took a gulp. And I know this sounds really weird, but, you know, I run on my treadmill a lot. I don't have a lot of time to get out. So I run on my treadmill a lot at the house with B-Pen electrolytes in a bottle on my treadmill. So you're so used to sort of the familiarity, right? The flavor, the taste. You just get used to it. I mean, it tastes different than any other electrolyte makes. So it was kind of cool going through the A station and taking a big slug and you realize, well,

this is exactly just like what I drink when I'm in the middle of my runs. And I know that sounds like a really weird thing, but, you know, usually it's some other drink, right? It's some other fluid at another marathon. And it was just the familiarity of it, which is pretty cool. And it just sort of hit me right at that moment, like, wow, this is, this is the Austin Marathon, but BPN is front and center here and is contributory to a lot of success and a lot of excitement for every member, potentially, of the running community. And I love it.

It was a big win. I mean, coming off of last weekend, just felt like a lot of hard work to be showcased, like years of hard work to be showcased. Yeah. On a big stage, something that like this whole team is and should be really proud of. I'm proud of everyone who supported and contributed.

Yeah. And it was really nice to see Mitch take home the win of the half. Yeah, that was good. That was good race. Yeah. And then Slim getting forth in a really hotly contested marathon. Those guys were flying out there. What was Slim's time?

He ran 220. 220. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was within four seconds of the leaders, you know, with about 10K to go. But he was hilly and it was windy. And he just had a really, really solid race on a really tough day for racing.

What pace is that? It's right at 520 pace. And that's a tough course. too. What's his PR? 217. 216 is what he ran in early November at Indianapolis when he took third. Yeah, Austin is a tough course too. Yeah, the Bat City guys ran real well.

I had no complaints about the way those guys performed. And Mitch taking home the win and the half marathon was big deal. It was good. Yeah, it's impressive. Congrats you in the team. Well, thank you. We're working hard. That's huge. All right, so let's pivot this conversation a little bit.

now really driving home like the resources, the tools, the guide for how to train for your first marathon. I have some notes here that I'll reference throughout. But my first note I have is make the commitment. And I think the first thing people need to do is to choose a race, sign up for the race. You have to have the physical and mental readiness to go into a. prep, prepare for a race. But I think it's really important to set a time frame and a specific date of when and where

you're going to go accomplish this goal. Because I think if you just put into the cloud, into the air, I'm going to run a marathon at some point. You start jogging here and there and you start increasing mileage slowly. There's nothing holding you accountable. So first things first, make the commitment, hold yourself accountable. What are your thoughts around that? I agree.

And one of the things that I always hear is this term ready. Will I be ready? How long will it take for me to be ready? And what I tell people is you need to make sure that you're using the term ready appropriately. So I asked them, do you mean ready to walk? 26.2 miles, or do you mean ready to break the world record? And they look at me strangely. And I said, well, you understand that you can walk 26.2 miles and that's finishing a marathon. You can break the world record in a marathon. And you're also finishing a marathon. And then there's thousands of points

on the continuum between those two spots. So my point is, is you can be ready whenever you want, but you got to put the race on the schedule and then what we'll do is to seek to utilize the time between wherever you are right now and the date of that race to be as ready as you can be at that point, right? You will be ready to do whatever it is you're going to do on that day, but you've got to put the date on the schedule and then let's take the 12 weeks, the 20 weeks, the 30 weeks between now and then, and then let's set a plan and plan and place to have you as ready as you can be at that moment in time, and then you go run that race, then you go and sign up for another one. And then we will redefine what, quote, unquote,

ready means for that next race. Maybe it's just finished the first one. Maybe it's ready to break four hours of the next one. Maybe it's ready to qualify for the Boston Marathon the next one. So ready? It's just sort of, you know, this term that people throw around and it's like, Hey, I told me, you're ready now. What do you mean? Can you walk 26 miles? Yeah, probably. All right, well, you're ready now.

Right? Let's be prepared as we can be. How do you approach someone who comes to you who has some experience running as a casual runner? You know, they might jog a few miles here and there a couple of miles a week. No clear structure or intent behind running. They're just running because. they get some sort of physical benefit from it, and they know that.

And they want to run a marathon. What is an appropriate time to go and do an actual prep for that first marathon? Is it 12 weeks? Is it 14, 16, 18, 20? How much is too much? How much is too little? Like, where's that sweet spot? Right.

In the sweet spot can be dependent on your life stressors, right? Are you employed? Do you need to be employed? Right? There are some people who don't have to work for various reasons, right? Or are you working the night shift in a warehouse? It's not air condition. And so I take all these factors into play when I start discussing this with people saying, okay, when do you think that you're going to be as prepared as you can be? We'll call it ready, you know, to run your first marathon. Generally speaking, and I have to be really careful with this because you do need to give some people some idea. Generally speaking, I would say, Hey, 16 weeks, right? I tell people this. If you can run a mile or two without stopping to walk right now, you can finish a marathon in the next 16 to 20 weeks, we can get you to the line. And that might sound absolutely fantastic,

almost too much to believe, but I can lay this out, and I can show people how it's doable. So basically my speech is, If you can run a mile, you can run a marathon. And for probably the remainder of this podcast, we'll be talking in a lot of general terms. Have to.

Because, I mean, you know more than I do. As a coach, you build programs case by case, individual by individual. You're considering so many different factors. So anything we share generally, you have to, for the listener, take your life scenario, situation, your experience, stressors. Do you have new babies at home?

Do you have like some craziness that's happening? You talking to us about your life? Exactly. Babies who aren't sleeping at home right now. Taking all those things into consideration and then figuring out, okay, what is appropriate for my life right now. So, okay, we have someone who's about to go into say a 16 week prep, first marathon, one of the questions I get a lot from new runners is

what do I have to get my running mileage weekly up to to be prepared for this marathon, this 26.2 mile race in 16 weeks. Right. And when somebody comes to me and they're a relatively inexperienced runner and they've never run a marathon before, and it's natural, how fast do you think, I can run it. And what I usually tell people is, hey, for this first one, that's largely immaterial.

Because 0.05%, not 5%, not 0.05% of Americans have run a marathon. 0.01% of people in the world have run a marathon. So if you simply go and jog a marathon, you are going to be one of five out of every maybe 1,000 people in the U.S. who have ever run a marathon. So you're already an outlier. So let's get fired up about being in that cool club. And let's not hyper obsess about what your time's going to be in this first one. So let's look at what mileage we need to get to that's going to fit your life and fit your schedule for you to be able to competently.

go out and run a marathon. And we can figure out maybe what your time might be based on some data, but that might have to wait until literally three weeks before race, before we've compiled enough for us to kind of look at it. But the goal going in should be, I'm going to go and I'm going to run it. I'm going to feel competent. I'm going to feel controlled. I'm going to feel prepared. And I'm going to finish.

And whatever the time is, hey, it is. And that'll be our starting spot. How much training, Nick? man you know if you could if you could get to where you're running five to six miles a day consistently five days a week and getting your long runs in that is enough volume to finish a marathon um they're not going to be breaking any land speed records but who does in their first marathon but you can finish a marathon and be okay 0.05% of the world 0.05 of americans 0.01% of the world. A higher number of Americans, because there's probably some socioeconomic and some demographic

reasons for that. We don't need to go into a sociology discussion, but still 0.05% that's just infinitesimically small. That 0.05% of the people who have run a marathon, that is my circle. That is who was with us this past weekend, the Austin Marathon, whether it was people's, I met someone, this woman, it was her 66th marathon. She was running. That's impressive. 66 this past weekend. So I've met people like that this past weekend.

I met people this past weekend who it was their first race ever. But they were there doing it. They put in the work, they committed the prep. And I share that to say that it is, this is applicable to more than just running marathons or races. or running in general, but you are a byproduct to the people you surround yourself with and the environment you are within. So if you want to run marathons, you want to get faster, you want to be better, find people who are pursuing those things.

I'll tell you one thing. When I started running with your crew downtown Austin in 2021, that made me faster. I was getting faster as a byproduct to the environment. surrounding myself with and around. So I think it's really important in life and in general that if there's something you want to do, and maybe not even specifically, but you just want to do more,

you want to be better. Find people who are pursuing those things because as long as you surround yourself with the point nine five, I'm not saying they're bad people. I'm not saying they're lazy. I'm not saying that at all. But no, if they're not doing the things that you want to be doing,

they might be holding you back from achievement. the things you actually want to do. Yeah, and, you know, you don't even necessarily need to limit it to marathons, but, you know, anything that's rigorous and anything that's difficult, it's going to have sort of a natural weed out effect. And inspired people do inspiring things. Uninspired people do not do inspiring things. And I think it's really, really important for us to surround ourselves

with people who are scaffolding around us so that they almost buttress us and propel us forward toward accomplishment, toward greatness, toward achievement. And we tend to probably gravitate toward each other a lot naturally. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. So I want to revisit something you briefly brought up a little bit ago. And it was talking about how as your first marathon, maybe the goal is just to go out and complete it and do as well as you can.

And I was researching this topic because I think it's a question, a lot of new runners. People going after their first half marathon or their first marathon, they have that question, like, how fast should they be running? What should my goal be? Just finish. And as I was researching how to convey this message across from people, because what I don't want people to take away from this is just go out and give it a half-ass effort and get across the finish line. And that's check the box. But I've came across this article online that was titled Embrace the Zero. And it's in reference to Robert Kaplan's book called The Nothing That Is a Natural History of Zero.

And it's all about how we should embrace the zero because zero acts as a reference point. And when you don't have baseline data, embracing the zero enables you to assess new data and set targets that reinforce performance expectations. So maybe for your first marathon, you start by setting an achievable initial target that's high enough to facilitate growth and then use that first marathon, everything you learned. You're going to gather so much data

subjectively but objectively. If you wear a Garmin watch or any sort of GPS watch, you're going to gather so much data over those 16 weeks. And then when you cross the finish line, of that first race, you have this huge set of data that you now can apply to build off of. So embrace the zero because that is a beautiful place to be coming from. Zero is not bad. It is not negative.

It's also not positive. Your baseline. Use your baseline to build off of. I think it's a really powerful place. It's a really exciting place to be operating from. it's a place of opportunity. Well said. Right?

Well said. We've all heard of blank canvases. And embracing the zero is the same thing is embracing a blank canvas. It's not bad. It just hasn't been painted yet. Right? And so you start week one. Then you get to week two.

You get to week eight. You finally get to week 16. You went from having a blank canvas to a, a picture that has almost been painted, right? You go from zero data and you're embracing the fact that you're starting from somewhere where you don't even need to have any preconceived notions of exactly what your time is going to be. But as you gather data and as you go and you run runs and as you progress fitness-wise, you'll get to the starting line and you're not going to have no idea what pace to run. Let me be clear.

But when you get to the starting line, you're going to have a range. You're going to have a clue when you didn't have the slightest iota possibly in week zero, right? And then when you get to week 16, you're going to have an idea. Hey, I've been running my easy runs at X pace. I was able to do some repeat work at X pace. I was able to do some lactate threshold training at X pace. So I think that, you know, collaboratively through people around me who have been helping me or a coach or just a confidant or a friend who's run marathons, I have my range. And then you just go and you stay within that, stay comfortable and just get your first marathon in.

And then that's just going to be a springboard for everything. But yeah, when you start in week one, somebody says, what do you think my goal should be? I think maybe I frustrate people sometimes because I say, how should I know? I don't know because we just need to embrace the zero. Let's not start talking about, oh my God, the time has to be this. Let's just embrace the zero and just enjoy the compilation of data from which we then are going to be able to have a clue once we get there. When I think back to my first two marathons, I had like this range of a pace that I was hoping for, but I was running more off of effort and subjective feel.

One of those first two marathons. I didn't know really where I was going to finish what time. The range of finish time was like 30 minutes probably. And my range of pace was probably honestly two minutes, that large of a range. And then with each additional marathon after that, the pace got faster, but also the range got slower. For now, when I go, if we think back to see,

I am in 2020, I guess that was. I knew exactly what pace I was going for. And the range that I was running with it was within a matter of seconds. But I knew the top end of what I did not want to run slower then.

But you just become so dialed with more experience. But in the beginning, I love what you said is like, start that prep week one with no expectations. Just start running. But by the tail end of that prep, those 16 weeks, you're going to have a pretty rough range of what you can run 26.2 in. There might be some variation. I mean, you might have a mile here that's three minutes slower

than another. You know, you're just trying to figure it out. But you'll figure out that range with some more time. Right. And with experience comes precision, right? And the more data you get, the more exacting you can be sort of in your process. You know, the first time you ever go and throw darts, the goal is just to hit the board. Just don't hit the wall, right? Well, once you progress to being able to hit the board every single time, then it's like, okay, well, how close can I get to actually hitting bullseyes? But when you first start throwing darts, it's like, you're not worried about hitting a bullseye, you just don't want to be the embarrassing guy that, like, puts holes in the drywall.

You just want to hit the board, right? And so what happens is just the more experience you get and the better at it you get it, then you can start hitting bullseyes the way you did at CIM. In your first couple of marathons, you were just trying to make sure you didn't hit the wall, right? Like literally and figuratively, like you didn't want to, like, and I think you actually did hit the wall. Oh, I did. A couple of those looked like, I've seen some videos with those first ones that it looked

look like a death march there the last several miles. You know what's funny is we're just watching old marathon footage of my first couple of marathons. Right. Because we've documented and filmed every race. And we're watching one of those, I think, maybe like my first marathon ever where we had someone filming it and I stopped mid race to give an update of how I was feeling. I stopped. You stop on the side of the course. I mean, I, I remember that. I remember that. first marathon. It was probably mile 17 and just full body seizure cramps. And there was this cop. I cramped right in front of this cop. And I couldn't move. I couldn't move at all. And he walked up. He put his arm around my shoulder. She's like, hey, bud, you're all right? I'm just like, I'm just

cramping real bad. He's like, you're a big boy to be out here. That was 230 pounds. It's hilarious. You know, but I stopped mid-race. to talk to the camera to give an update. Now, I mean, when I go to a marathon, seconds matter. Seconds matter. I don't even want to stop to go to the bathroom. But that's just progression. Yeah, yeah.

It's just progression over time. How many runners have you coached up until this point, roughly? Probably a couple thousand. A couple thousand. Yeah. So you've probably seen trends over time. You have some of the best cohort data that I'd love just like, I mean, you could write a, and you should write a whole book.

Oh, you've been on me about that one for a while. You should, you should write a book on this. Yeah. He's like so powerful and so interesting, just all of the cohort data. But when you have runners going to a 16 week prep, You've experienced now thousands of runners. Are there points in that prep where you see transformational progress?

Like what can people expect going to the first marathon prep 16 weeks? You know, give some context. You recently started running again, right? Yes. When you first started running again, I'm sure every run was painful. And you just made a comment that you were a mile and a half to your most recent run and you forgot you were running.

But that comes with time. Have you found, generally speaking, with runners that within the 16 week prep, at week three, this happens, at week nine, this happens, at week 12, this happens. Because I feel like every time I've prepped with you, there are certain parts of every prep where there's this confidence unlocked. And I think you strategically put in some of these big workouts to facilitate that. where I realize, oh crap, I'm in pretty good shape right now. We're going to do this.

But it's his confidence reinforcement workouts that deliver that feedback. Even when you compare beginners and you compare super experienced runners, for everybody, there's a day or maybe a week or two where the proverbial light bulb just sort of of goes on. I got a text message from a runner who I coached last week. He's up in the northeast part of the United States. And it had been rough waters for a couple of months. And he texted me and he said, today's the day that all of a sudden everything just felt so incredible. And I just realized how fit I am because everything just suddenly just clicked and it felt really, really good, you know. And I was talking to somebody at the expo the day before the marathon. And they were

talking about how running was really difficult to the point of being possibly miserable some days for them. And they stuck with it and they stuck with it. But then they, it's almost like going through a dark tunnel and they came out the other side. And now suddenly running is an ingrained part of sort of their life. It is sort of endemic to everything that they do. It's just you just go and run every day. And what he noted to me and what I, and what I confirmed with him is, is there are so many people that give up on it before they get to that point. And so the one thing I want to tell everybody who's listening to this podcast, who is either new to running or is about to start running, is it's going to be hard before it gets easier. And when I say easier, I don't necessarily

mean as far as it's going to be easy to run amazing times and running fast is going to be super easy but i mean going out and just running easy feels easy even running easy feels hard at first you've got to let your body get the adaptations be patient stick with it and then suddenly you will achieve what i refer to as running competence running competence means it just feels good it feels smooth it feels relatively natural to just go out and spend three, four, five miles a day, and it's not drudgery from the first step to the last step. For many people, that light bulb comes on, typically a couple of months into it.

Sometimes it takes three months. And what I would tell everybody, stick with it, because you'll never forget the day. And usually it's a day. And you never forget that feeling. And then you realize, this is why I always look to all those crazy runners over there. And I never understood how these people are laughing and chatting and seeming like they actually enjoy it.

And people will look at these people like they're from Mars. Like how can you possibly enjoy running? I mean, running, you know, you see these t-shirts. This is my sport is your sports punishment, right? You know, running. And then suddenly when that lightboat goes on, it feels great. So even for experienced runners, you achieve or sort of unlock new levels. It's like it's one of those video games, right?

You unlock a new level. And typically that will come after several weeks of repeat training and right when you start getting into like the last two months of your block before you get to those big long run workouts. And we can get into all the minutia of this. But typically I like to start those anywhere from, you know, six to eight weeks out from a big marathon. You start some big marathon workouts.

Usually it's that, that phase. when sort of that fitness light bulb goes on, you know? Even just last week for a couple of the, you know, the elite women on Bat City Track Club, they had a track workout on Tuesday where the light bulb just went on. It'd been just sort of a little jerky, a little herky jerky, a little janky. I'm not feeling great, some highs and lows and lows in the training. And all of a sudden, last week, it was like, aha. And usually it's, you know, 60, 70% of the way.

through the bill when usually that happens yeah i'm thinking back to my last prep right now because obviously i was living in in nashville yeah for that last prep and when you would prescribe these big marathon paste workouts for my long runs as we got in the back half of the prep we would go out to this this section of franklin tennessee the annache's trace trail area and I found this 3.5 mile stretch. It was fairly flat. It was all horse farmland. It was beautiful property.

I was running CIM, which is December. So it was like October and November. Leaves were changing out there. It was cool. It was like just beautiful. And I remember doing some of those workouts where I would have three miles at 6-10 minute-per-mile pace and multiple segments of that.

And I was just clipping those miles. Like it was nothing. And you leave that workout thinking, you know, that was tough, but that was almost too easy. And that's when it sinks in of, we've built some fitness. We're going to do this. That is one of the best feelings ever.

And I made this post, I think it was years ago at this point now, And I said, if you don't love running, you haven't been running long enough. Sometimes it takes months and months and months for that unlock to happen when you're on that run and you realize this is what I've been working towards. This is what everyone talks about. This is why people do this. Now I'm hooked. But sometimes it's just one run that makes it happen. And I referenced this the other day, but I referenced this the other day.

There was this Nike ad. I'm not sure if you ever seen it. I love it. And it was all these different runners running in really crappy environments. It was rain. It was, you know, there's mud everywhere and they're sick. It's just like not the best running conditions that you would visualize as a great run. And the title of the ad was if you don't hate running a little, you don't run.

You don't love running enough. If you don't hate running a little, you don't love running enough. And that clicked for me, and I'm sure for a lot of other runners, that clicks as well. Because every day I wake up to go run, I'm not excited to go run. I mean, it's cold out. I have 11 miles on the schedule. I'm like, man, don't really want to do this. But I never question.

I still know I'm going to walk out in the kitchen. I'm going to take my phone. fuel. I'm going to go to the garage. I'm going to put my shoes on. I'm going to go log my miles. When I'm done, I'm glad I did. But you're not going to wake up motivated every day. And especially in a marathon prep as mileage increases, the wear and tear on the body increases, you become more tired. You start questioning, why am I even doing this? You have to go through that mud at some point because when you cross the finish line of 26.2 miles, it's all going to make sense. Why? Because the days that matter are the days you don't want to. I don't know anybody

who's been good at running who was born with a fitness silver spoon in their mouth. And here's what I mean by that. Nobody ever achieved anything great in running. and we can fan this out to any endeavor in life, whether it's writing code on a computer, whether it's building a business, right? Whether it's being, you know, the best, you know, painter. It doesn't matter. Nobody ever got good in anything without going through the mud.

And if you just loved it every single day, If you woke up fired up about going through the inevitable monotony that it takes to be good at everything, it takes repetition, right? Then I question whether or not you're actually truly investing in what it takes to be good at something. Because there's going to be a day when you wake up and you are not fired up about running, but you go do it because that's what you have to do to be good, right? And if you only do things in life, only when you are fired up about it, if you only do things in life, when you quote unquote, are, quote, feeling it, I would posit that you're never

ever going to maximize your potential in that and probably never ever even be, frankly, even good at it. I agree. I mean, I'm sorry. As much as I would love to believe that you've woken up every single day in the last seven, years of your life, just fired up about creatine, protein powder, managing a bunch of employees dealing with the financial headaches of a growing business and supply chain headaches. I would guess you don't wake up just absolutely in love with the idea of tackling it every

single day, which you recognize the need to because globally you love it. But in the micro, you're not going to love it every single day. Today, it was, it was 90, believe it or not, people, and I get it up in the northern Midwest, you guys probably are just laughing. But it was 19 degrees yesterday at my house, and it was snowing in the morning in Dripping Springs, Texas. And I'm here to tell you that there was a lot of people that went out and ran yesterday. And I didn't get one person text me yesterday and say, man, that felt great.

That was awesome. Almost everybody was like, I can't fill my hands. That was miserable. But the cool thing was, but I'm so happy I did it. That's what should resonate with everybody. But I'm so happy I did it. I went on this run. I'm thinking right now, went on this run a few weeks ago.

And it was downpouring when I woke up. But I knew. I woke up. I heard the rain coming. There was never a question of. am I going to run this morning or not? And Seth at this point knows no matter what the weather is. I mean, it could be snowing, it could be raining, it could be hailing.

I'm going from my run. And I'm running outside, shirt off, hat on. And the wind is blowing into my face in these raindrops where sharp as all heck coming to my face as well. And I'm thinking, it was like three miles of this before it let off a little bit. I'm like, you know, this really sucks. This is like, this hurts. This sucks right now.

But there was never the question of I'm going to turn around and go home. I'm not finishing this run until my 11 miles are clocked on my watch. And once my 11 miles are clocked to my watch, then I can walk in the house. But not any sooner than that. Nothing's going to stop me. You want to know why? It's because you got to do it. Not because you have.

had to do it. It was your privilege to do it, not because you had to do it. It was because there are so many people who can't do it. There are so many people who are unable to do it. So instead of saying, I'm miserable, I don't want to do it, it's like, okay, well, no, that actually might be true, but I still get to do it and then get your ass out the door. right? Because I just turned 50 in December and I don't want to say that there was this big transformation in me. But I did wake up on my 50th birthday and I started taking stock. And when I was in my 20s, in my 30s, even in my 40s, I just sort of la-di-daid my way through a lot of days. I did. I have to admit, I have to admit that there were a lot of days I just took.

for granted. And you know what, Nick? I'm sort of having an epiphany right now and I hadn't thought about it. I think a lot of the reason why I've kind of really enjoyed running so much now is, is that I turned 50 about nine weeks ago. And I just sort of started to take it stock. And so I thought to myself, I get to run. I get to kiss my wife every day. I get to see my friends. I get to. I get to talk to Nick instead of, you know, viewing things as sort of like this compulsory obligation that you just sort of drudge through. And so, yeah, running isn't anything that you're going to just love every day. You're not going to just go, oh, my God, you know, I'm going to have rainbows and glitter shooting out of my ass every day. But you know what?

I still get to do it. And I think if we frame it like that, then it can provide a little oomph, you know, and for us to get our ass out the doors, I said. Yeah, it's really important for first-time racers as well. You know, when you go into a prep, the realistic expectation is you're not going to love every run. You still got to do it. And the reason it's really important to identify that race, sign up for that race, share it with all your friends and family.

You got to hold yourself accountable. Yeah. And find someone else who can hold you accountable as well because it's too easy to sign up for something. realize you don't want to do it and then quit. But once you sign up for something and you commit to the process and you cross the finish line, and that's a big win, and you can just build off of that. You build more confidence with more repetition, more experience. But like you got to sign up for that first one, commit, get it done, and build off of that.

I want to take a quick break in this episode to talk to you guys about how I use our products around my endurance. training and how you can as well. Now here at BPN, we've created products to fuel your performance and optimize your recovery. But I want to talk specifically around how I use these products in my morning run. Before my morning run every morning, I'm not training fasted. I want carbohydrates and I want electrolytes. So I consume two scoops of G1M Sport, which is our carbohydrate and electrolyte powder. and one go bar, which is our lightweight oat-based bar.

With this combination, I'm getting about 800 milligrams of sodium and 76 grams of carbohydrates total. Carbohydrates for the fuel, electrolytes for the hydration. This is going to set me up to have the best run possible. Fuel and hydration. Now, based off of the distance, duration, and duration, intensity of that run, I will add in go gels during the workout. And the go gel is our simple ingredient, endurance gel, 24 grams of carbohydrates in each gel and 110 milligrams of sodium. We have a

non-caffeinated version and a caffeinated version. The caffeinated version has 75 milligrams of caffeine per gel. And I will have one go gel every 30 to 45 minutes. or every four to five miles. And we really created the GoGel for these bigger effort runs or endurance training sessions and races. They are extremely useful during races because you get a quick hit of energy from the fuel, the carbohydrates,

some hydration from the electrolytes, the sodium, but they also digest very easily. So you're not going to have stomach discomfort and GI distress. And then after my run, I want to rehydrate. So I'm always adding in our electrolyte powder, one to two scoops. Each scoop has 500 milligrams of sodium, full electrolyte profile. So I'm using our products to fuel training, enhance hydration, maintain effort intensity during training sessions with the go gel,

and then rehydrating immediately after. So that's how I use our products around my early morning runs and all my endurance training and how you can as well. So go to BPNSups.com. Check out all of our endurance products to fuel your performance. And now back to the episode. So let's move into some of that minutia that you were kind of hinting towards earlier. How to structure training. And I think we can take this from a few different approaches.

you have your easy miles, your base miles, you have your weekly speed workouts, and then the long run. So let's talk about the importance of easy miles, why we need to keep easy miles easy, what easy means, what it feels like, what it looks like, and then why that's so foundational to build upon going into a prep. at its base, you've got to be able to just go through the act of running. And I know that sounds so stupid almost for me to say. But at the end of the day, you're running down the road. It's left, right, left, right, left, right, tens of thousands of steps in a marathon. We have to become what I referred to earlier as running adept. The only way to do that is to go.

run and to not overdo it. Listen, you can't let pride, you can't let ego creep in, to be honest with you. And this is where I'm just going to be really, really blunt, okay? The average truck driver, the average a guy in your neighborhood out walking his dog, see somebody out running down the road. They cannot eyeball you. you and tell whether or not you're running 11 minutes a mile or nine. And I'm here to tell you two minutes a mile is a vast difference. Most people can't look at it and tell. So do not go out your door and think that you're going to be any more or less impressive to anybody if you're running X pace or Y pace. So why don't you just take pride in the fact that you are doing it and just take it nice and easy. Don't overdo it to the degree that you feel.

exhausted, that you feel beat up all the time. And then the problem is, is when you feel like that, then it breeds sort of this loathing of the task of going out and running on a day-to-day basis. And so if you just take it nice and easy, you're not shortchanging yourself. You're becoming running adept. And you're not going to be more or less impressive to your neighbor who can't tell a damn bit of difference between what pace you're running and some other patient running. They can't tell. So just go nice and easy, man. Because that is. is foundational for everything that you're going to be doing going and running a marathon. At the end of the day, you've got to be able to run in a straight line down the road and do it

for lots of miles many times over and over and over hours, days, weeks, and months, and eventually years. Do you think the 80-20 principle is still a good ratio that 80% of your runs should be these truly easy runs? And then the 20% should be your more. intense critical velocity, tempo threshold? Right. The 80-20 rule is not a rule. It is something that has been popularized and is sort of morphed into sort of the culture of talking about running. But the 80-20 ratio is just generally

pretty good. Can it be 70-30? Oh gosh, I guess maybe, especially for lower-money. knowledge runners, right? Can it be 85, 15? Yes. The point is, the vast majority of the running that you do has to be really, really easy running. The 80-20 rule is not a rule that's necessarily grounded in any empiric science which says if you're 81, you know, if you're 81% or 79%, that's really not the point. The point is the vast majority needs to be easy. So yes, generally speaking, the 80-20 ratio, I don't really have to call it a rule because it's really not a rule. But the 80-20 ratio is generally a good standard to sort of use as a baseline ratio to make sure that you're not running too many of your miles hard. Yeah.

And if you're going to err, if you're going to err on one side of the other, let me add this, you're better off running more of your miles easy and less of your miles hard if you're going to make a mistake. Although I would challenge that from a scientific sense as to whether or not it's truly a mistake, but you'd be better off going 8515, right, than going 7525 if I had to say that. I agree with that. Yeah. Typically in a prep, when people are getting really beat down from a running prep, it's because they are running those easy runs too fast. Earlier you mentioned the gray zone. The gray zone is the space between your easy runs and then you're like true lactate threshold speed work. But that gray zone, you're not really getting the benefits of the adaptations from either.

And if you stay in that gray zone too long, that's where people who are in a prep, they start getting chronically fatigued. They're always tired. They can't recover. They can't hit their hard workouts hard. It's because they're not truly running their easy runs, easy. And I mean, I remember when I first heard, and this still blows people with minds when you're told or you tell someone the way you run faster is actually by running easier.

When you hear that, it doesn't make sense. But the truth is that all the adaptations that we're trying to gain and benefit from with running are done so in that zone to work. the adaptations of the biomechanics of the muscular system, the adaptations to the heart, to the lungs, to your body's ability to pump more blood in higher volume out of the heart, lowering your resting heart rate and your heart rate in general. You become more efficient.

And the way we do that is by running more of our miles in this truly aerobic zone. Now, the question a lot of people are going to ask is, well, what is your aerobic zone? I think there's two ways to describe it. I mean, you can get really into the details of this, and some people do. But for general population, I would say, if you can have a full conversation with someone next to you while you're running, that is an aerobic pace. That is an easy pace. I'm also a big fan of Math 180, the Mathitone method. So you take 180, you subtract your age, that is the top end of your max aerobic heart rate.

Now, a lot of people hear max aerobic heart rate, and they think that's your max heart rate. No, it is the top end of being in your aerobic zone. So say, for example, you are 30 years old. 180 minus 30 is 150. Your heart rate shouldn't go above 150 beats per minute while you're on your easy runs to make sure you're in the right zone. Now, if it were me, I was 30 years old, I'd probably try to run 140 to 145 beats per minute to be safe. And I wouldn't trust my GPS watch. I would make sure I'm wearing an external heart rate monitor, either on my arm

or around my chest. But the key takeaway here is majority of your miles should truly be done easy. And if you're running those easy miles too hard, you're not getting the adaptation or the benefit that you want or desire to actually get faster and build endurance. Yes, that's absolutely true. And I tell people, if you are able to speak in a full conversation, you're probably running easy, right? I also tell people they should almost be, and this sounds so counterintuitive, almost zero effort runs. In other words, you should be able sometimes to almost forget that you're running. If you're lost in thought, thinking about a problem at work or a conversation you had with somebody who's meaningful to you in your sphere trying to figure out, hey, how do I navigate this?

Or if you're talking to a buddy, right? You sort of get lost in it, right? I got lost in thought today, like you referred to earlier. I made it to a mile and a half and realized I had forgot that I was running. People say, well, that's just so incredibly hard to believe. and I'm harkening back to that if you are in that space, then you're either running too hard or you have probably just started running

to the point where you haven't gotten to that flow state yet in your running where it just becomes feeling natural. But yes, we've got to keep it easy. And what I tell people is you can spend a lot of time being married to your heart rate and looking at it at your watch. First of all, a lot of the heart rate monitors on the watches when they're at your wrist, the smart watches, the Garman's Coros are not super, super accurate. They can be a guidepost, but don't let it sort of rule the day.

Also, really enjoy the sensory data that comes from running. And if you just slow it down and look at some livestock that's in a pasture next to you, if you're running in a rural setting, or just enjoy looking at the homes or the lights at Christmas time, if you're running in an urban neighborhood, and just slow it down and just enjoy the sensory input and don't feel the need to press all the time. One of the things that is so great about the United States and has been for a long time is generally speaking, people work incredibly hard. And so we have some principles, I think, that we live by societally that I think are really, really good, but don't necessarily help us a lot in the endurance space.

We really, really glorify lots and lots of hard work and maybe not taking enough vacation time, enough time off. And so we hear things like burning the midnight oil, right, especially by teachers and professors when we were in school. I believe in embracing the grind. I believe in some sense trying to get 1% better every day, but not in the sense that I think a lot of people mean it. And so the problem is, is if you say, I want to get one percent.

better every day and you apply that to your day-to-day running, then what that does is it makes you subconsciously press a little bit. Even though you're told that's not really the way it works, our subconscious because of our sort of societal mores and the way we do things culturally here, which generally is pretty good for commerce, for growing businesses and achieving great things, which is you just got to grind a little bit every day. You've got to be careful with that with your running because if you get into that gray zone, right, and your heart rate's too high, and you're trying to press just a little bit, which is like, hey, for everybody else, they can just go and run easy every day.

But you're going to look left and you're going to look right. You're going to go, but I'm different. I bet I'm different. I bet I can press just a little bit and get a little bit fitter today. And I'm going to get a jump on the competition, right? Now, listen, all you fans of the Oklahoma Sooners, I get that. Everybody jumped and went and stole land and all that. So that's why they're called the Sooners, right?

But we don't need to try to get a jump on our competition. by overrunning our easy runs thinking, well, that's for them, right? But for me, I'm going to cheat science. And I'm going to get just a little better today by doing sort of a quasi-tempo run that's harder than easy, but easier than hard. No, that's the point. If your run is harder than easy, but easier than hard, you actually aren't getting better. All you're doing is, is taking a wire and stripping all of the casing off of it.

And what we know happens to a wire when you do that is, is you lose the strength of signal, right? The same things happens to us neurologically. If we strip, okay, the casing off of our nerves, we just sort of get frayed neurologic impulses. And we get what we refer to as neuromuscular fatigue. And you cannot just go hard and go hard and go hard and go hard. and expect for your body to hold up and expect you to get any progression. You've got to run easy. You've got to just invest in the science in short circuit.

The embrace the grind, burning the midnight oil stuff that we were told by our junior high basketball coach. You, you know, you guys, you better run until you puke. And if you miss one practice, then that means every team in the neighboring town got better that day because they practiced and you didn't. let's abandon that line of thinking when it comes to our easy runs. Let's not do that. That's a really good visualization with the stripping of the wire. I really like that. It's a real thing.

And this is very applicable. For someone's first marathon prep, you might not experience this, but when people will go from prep to prep to prep to prep, and they build this fatigue, this neuromuscular fatigue chronically, over time, sometimes in order to self-correct that and fix that, it's not something you solve by taking a week off. Sometimes it might take months to fix that level of just destruction

and erosion of the neuromuscular components. It's a dangerous place. And it's not just neuromuscular. I mean, it's adrenal fatigue, you know, for a lot of Ben, it's a, precipitous declines in testosterone levels. There's a lot of science that goes into it, and we don't need to overscience this. But let's just say that adrenal fatigue, low testosterone, neurologic, just sort of fraying, just neurologic fatigue. It all just sort of sets in intense doses,

consistent doses of cortisol get dumped into our system. Just a lot of the, for lack of a better way of putting it, the stuff that makes us tired. If we just literally cool the flames of stress that we have the ability to cool, such as the self-infliction of discomfort and fatigue by, quote, overdoing things, then we are going to avoid a whole lot of the pitfalls along the way. Correct. So key takeaway, keep those easy miles, easy, stay out of the gray zone.

And don't be embarrassed by it. and don't think that anybody's judging you, wow, he doesn't look like he's running that fast. Guess what? Everybody's impressed by the fact that you're running down the street and they ain't. All right? You're getting it done. Take pride in that.

So let's talk about now when is it time and how do you turn on the wheels? When do you go hard? When do you go fast? And historically, every time we've worked together, I know the way you like to program your runner's training is Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Thursday, Friday is easy runs. Typically. Typically, Wednesday, and this is how it's been for me working with you in the past. Wednesday is a speed workout, and every other week it rotates between the track, critical velocity, and then tempo or lactate threshold, which is typically,

multiple mile segments. And then on Saturdays, we have our long run. And then the deeper we get into prep, those long runs become workouts. And there's structured marathon-paced segments built within. And for me, it's always been Sunday off. Monday restarts a new week. What is the purpose? What is the intent?

How should people think about structuring speed workouts in the week? Let's start there before going. of the long runs. When should people start incorporating speed workouts? Is it week one for new runners? Is it week three, five? And then how to approach structuring those? Right. And when we talk about speed, you know, it's a term that I think means so many different things to different people. And what I like to remind people of is if you're running half marathons, marathons, the speed at which you're running those races is pretty modest most of the time. And so any running that we do where we're accelerating,

where we're running faster than race pace, is going to be beneficial to start building fitness and building sort of those, I used to term neuromuscular again. When we say neuromuscular, what we mean is, is, you know, in sort of layman's terms, because I'm a doctor of jurisprudence, I'm not a medical doctor, right? Your brain says, go fast.

It sends a signal to your legs, and your brain says, hey, legs, go fast, and then you want to try to go fast. Well, it's just like anything. You've ever seen a concert pianist and fingers just flying over the keys, right? Or a court stenographer, right? And a court reporter, and it's like, wow, that's unbelievable. Well, that's all neurologic stimulus. It's from the brain to whatever it is that we're doing.

And so what happens is his speed is very much that way too. And learning how to dial in pace is that way too. And so that's the reason why we try to run faster. And it's not just neurologic, but there's some other reasons for that. A lot of it has to do with our vascular system building out more blood supply. It's called distal capitalization, distal meaning away from the heart in the extremities, right? And so you build the blood supply into the working muscles in our legs and our extremities, right? And then also mitochondrial density. Mitochondria, lack of a better way of putting it, because going back to high school biology is basically the engine, it makes a selco. And we do know that when we biopsy runners, muscles, after they've had moderate doses of consistent aerobic stress, right?

Where we don't go over that cliff by running too hard, we get lots of mitochondrial density. And a runner that has lots of mitochondrial density, meaning a whole lot of mitochondria in sort of biopsy muscle. You can take a look at it under a microscope. What we know is is that these people are able to run faster and farther without fatiguing. That's basically the shorthand explanation of what we're doing. So that's what we start building in these faster workouts.

And we have to be careful because remember, you're never going to be sprinting all out at any point in a marathon. almost ever. Okay? And so the trick is let's dial it back. Let's not run our first session. And typically I like to do fart like to do fart like sessions. Fartleck is the sweetest word for speed play. And I did an Instagram story just the other day about talking to people about how to manage a fart like session. It could be maybe speeding up for 15 seconds at a time, maybe six or seven times during an easy run. That might be the first quote unquote speed session. or accelerations that you do other than just easy running in your block. What are we doing?

We're starting to run faster. We're starting to get those adaptations that exceed the adaptations that we get from just going and running easy every day. And you build that in more and more and more. I would say that you probably need to run easy for a month, sometimes even six weeks, if you're new to running before you even try to start adding that stuff in. You don't want to add too many stress. early because you're you're risking fatigue and you're you're risking injury you got to be really

really careful but for a more experienced runner you know you can add those in within three four weeks of starting your next sort of quote unquote block and they can get bigger and bigger and bigger until we then sort of bridge the gap going from that to actual structured interval training which has um adds a couple of stressors one of those is is just the stress the physical stress of running fast. You know, we go down to a track and say, okay, we're going to run some half-mile repeats at X pace. The other stress is psychological because when you start actually getting the stopwatch on the actual split, then it creates sort of that cognitive sort of stress of like, okay, I have to really be staring at my watch. I'm beholden to sort of this workout to hit

these splits. But we have to be careful doing that early on because you don't want to add too much stress to the running. And that's why I like to start with fart lick, which is just sort of a self-paced, speeding up, slowing down, speeding up, slowing down, to where you don't have to be staring at your watch a whole lot, stressing about, oh my God, am I hitting the assigned pace?

Yeah. And that's why I do it. I like those fartlicks in the beginning too, because for any new runner, you know, you're going to a prep. Yeah. You're used to now at this point, a lot of these easy, slower miles.

we had to turn the legs on. And whenever I go into a new prep for a race or a marathon, there's this conditioning period of turning the legs back on that I always think of. Where my legs have now been used to logging these long, easy, slower miles. Let's bring back that stimulus of just some more speed. Or maybe there's some strides. Maybe you've incorporated into my running, It's two minutes fast, two minutes easy, and multiple rounds of that.

So it's not over-stimulated. It's not over-taxing, but we can run some segments where we're turning the legs on and just getting them comfortable to running faster before we go into more advanced, structured speed workouts, like 800-meter repeats on the track with 60 seconds of rest. Or maybe it's a workout that's two-mile. tempos with a one-mile recovery in between, you do three or four of those. But before we dive into that, let's turn the legs back on. I have a funny story about Fartlicks, actually.

Complete side note, but when I was in the Army ROTC program in college, we would have to brief our battalion commander on PT program for the week prior. So we'd all be sitting in this room, whoever was in the leadership team, and then someone would go up and present the physical training program for the week to the commander. And someone wrote fart lick on one of the training slides, but spelled it fart, F-A-R-T-L-I-C-K, fart-lick. I'll never forget just the reaction of our battalion commander to that. Unbelievable.

But I do love incorporating fart-lick. into programming early on prior to some of these big speed workouts. It's a stress-free way, psychologically stress-free way, to get some quote-unquote speedwork in without being married to split, and it sort of reawakens sort of the legs, so to speak, to the idea of running faster rather than just sort of hitting a more monotonous sort of easy pace. And it bridges a nice gap in a structured interval training is the way I like to describe it.

Right. Yeah. And then we have the weekly long run, which for most people is done on Saturdays, you kind of wrap up a week with a long run with the intent of, one, just getting in more weekly mileage, running on tired legs,

and then building that muscular strength, more time on feet. And then eventually you like to start incorporating some structured long run workouts. What are the typically, Typically the weeks you start incorporating those structured long run workouts. Usually anywhere from six to eight weeks out, maybe max nine. And even then you might, you know, you might only incorporate just a few miles of race-paced miles, you know, in a run, you know, maybe nine weeks out from a marathon.

You don't want to do too much of that because you could just flat out get tired, you know, and you don't want to show up to the starting line, sort of gray behind the eyes, as I like to say it. But yeah, typically anywhere from, you know, seven, eight weeks out, nine max, you'll do your first structured long run workout. And, you know, you may incorporate anywhere from, you know, four or five, up to 12 miles of running at or below goal marathon race pace. Or if you're running a half marathon, it might be anywhere from six to nine miles of running just a little bit slower than half marathon race pace all the way down to faster than half marathon race pace. Because you know, at the end of the day, you know, when you're running a marathon, you don't want to get to mile 20, 21, having never felt marathon race pace that deep into a run. Because sometimes the legs have a tendency to revolt. And so there's some real pragmatic reasons for training in that way in the weeks heading into the race. That way, you're ultimately prepared.

Yeah, I remember some of my structured long run workouts you would give me would start with. a six to seven mile easy warm up yeah warm up is six miles yeah and then we jump into you know maybe it's two miles at race pace half mile jog three miles at race pace half mile jog two miles at race pace half mile jog something like that but those are big confidence boosters especially going into a big race where you have a time that you're really shooting for well Last thing I want to talk about is nutrition. And I think nutrition is just as important as the training, not only to fuel your performance, but also it's a critical component of recovery.

And I think this is like we kind of alluded to in the beginning of this podcast, the reason we're seeing, one of the reasons we're seeing people run faster marathons is because runners are now understanding the importance of fueling properly. There's this evolution of the endurance athlete where they're now prioritizing recovery. They're prioritizing strength training, which is helping prevent injuries and durability, and they're prioritizing nutrition. So there's, from my perspective, the way I look at nutrition around running and endurance training in general, and in this case, a marathon prep, you have your nutrition around

your workouts, your fuel, your hydration, and then you have. your nutrition for the rest of the day. Both are important. We need to prioritize protein intake to maximize recovery. My rule of thumb is one gram per pound of body weight. So protein, high quality protein sources are extremely important. Carbohydrates are extremely important, not just around your training, but throughout the rest of the day. Carbohydrates are going to be the primary fuel source used for your running, your efforts, especially during bigger harder workouts. And the carbohydrates that your body doesn't use immediately if your fuel is going to be stored in the muscle and the liver as glycogen that your body can tap into for fuel when it

runs out of readily available glucose or carbohydrates. With carbohydrates, I mean, we want to choose most of our sources from high quality, complex carbs that have a good portion of fiber. and we need to prioritize fiber, not necessarily around our training, but throughout the back half of the day outside of our training protocols. And then dietary fat is extremely important for not only hormone regulation, but just energy levels, mental clarity. We want some body fat on us to fuel and protect our bodies during these big training blocks. but that's generally a high level overview of nutrition. I think we have an opportunity now to talk about nutrition around training specifically and workouts. And this is why I was so exciting having the go gels and electrolytes on course, the Austin Marathon.

We at BPN have created endurance products to fuel performance primarily through carbohydrates and electrolytes. And one of my favorite sayings is that once you train fueled, you will never train fasted again. At a minimum before every run I do, it is one go bar, two scoops of G&M sport. That's 800 milligrams of sodium, 76 grams of carbohydrates. In the hot Texas summer months here, I'm adding more electrolytes before my run and during my workouts. So I'm curious from your perspective, how have you seen an evolution in your athletes? with a new understanding or respect for fueling? Well, I've had runners say, I like to run fasted.

And, of course, my first instinct is, well, that's stupid. But I don't say that. What I tell them is you might think that you like to run fasted, but your body doesn't like you for liking to run fasted. Why would you ever leave for the family vacation, cross-country driving vacation, with your car's gas tank on E? Why would you do that? How far are you going to make it down the road? Listen, fuel is required for lawnmowers to perform, for automobiles to perform, for rockets to be able to make it out of the Earth's atmosphere.

and it's also required for the human body to perform. A human body unfueled for days and then weeks perishes. Okay. But the problem is we don't view it that way because we view our training in such little a micro stents of time that we don't fully internalize, that we're not maximizing performance.

Unpopular opinion, but there was a period when doing fasted long runs was there were proponents of that saying that it taught our bodies how to process fuel better and processed this. And all I saw was people who were having miserable long runs and having miserable performances and wrecking workouts on days when they had a chance to get better by literally running unfueled.

Do not do it. You need anywhere from 500 up to 800 milligrams of sodium per hour during exercise you need to be getting anywhere from 40 to 70 grams of carbohydrates per hour during your long runs, during long workouts, and during marathons. And listen, I coach Bat City Track Club, right, sponsored by BPN. We have professional runners who are using this stuff. I have age groupers everywhere from, you know, from New England. to Melbourne, Australia, who are using this stuff, okay? And trust us when Nick and me and everybody else tells you that if you fuel, your body will perform. If you do not fuel, your body will not

perform, your rocket will not leave the atmosphere. Trust me on that, folks. Okay? Yeah, I'm like, and I am lecturing you right now. I am. I'm so, uh, I'm so, uh, I'm so, passionate about fueling performance. I mean, it's obviously become the mission here at BPN and the evolution of this business and this brand because I have trained fasted before thinking that there was a benefit or a strength to it. And I found a few things to that. One, I wasn't able to maximize my performance or power output during training sessions. But even more importantly, I was not recovering for the next day or the next day or the next training session. And I'd be extremely fatigued for the rest of the day after one of these

workouts. With a marathon specifically, I mean, there's been a lot of research actually in the endurance space with ultra endurance athletes who are moving at slower paces where they can benefit from fat adaptation and tapping into fat stores as an energy source. But when we're talking about a marathon, which is a faster pace than say an ultra, your body's most efficient energy source is going to be carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are your best friend. And then when it comes to hydration, electrolytes, even the slightest amount of dehydration that an individual athlete experiences

will significantly affect performance. I did one of those sweat tests a few years back. And it was during one of the workouts with you guys, actually on the east side loop. And it was in the summer months. It was really hot. It was super humid where I put this patch on my arm. And then I had to record what I consumed prior to that workout in terms of carbohydrates,

electrolytes, and the amount of water. We had to weigh myself. We then recorded the dew point, humidity, and temperature outside. I had to weigh myself after and then record how much liquids and fuel I consumed during. We sent this in for testing. The results came back. I lost 2,500 milligrams of sodium in an hour of training in a summer here in Texas during a run. If you are not front-loading electrolytes prior to your training sessions and replenishing during and after,

you are trying to train and perform in a dehydrated state, which we know significantly decreases your ability to perform. and your power output. So I'm convicted all around all things fueling training, but not just around training itself the rest of the day. We got to look at this as a big picture approach of, are we hitting our protein goals? Are we hitting our carbohydrate goals? Are we hitting our dietary fat goals?

And then within that, how are we structuring our fuel sources, our nutrition around our training to make sure, we're performing as best as possible and then recovering as well. There is also another nuanced component to this that I think a lot of people don't think about is that the failure to fuel well throughout a day and a failure to fuel well during athletic performance can be negatively impactful long term on your overall physical health and can also have a lot of deletrious effects on your mental health, both in the micro and the macro, right? Because the problem is, is let's boil it down to a race. And let's say that you don't

feel enough during the race and you don't feel well during a race. And so then you end up having a bad race or you don't feel well during a workout. You have a bad workout. It's not just that physically you don't perform well. And so the stopwatch tells the tail of you coming up short. but then you also then create a psychological negative that then erodes your self-confidence. It can erode your ability to adopt a positive outlook on the next hard workout that comes up. On the next race, you can spiral emotionally the first signs of fatigue or the first signs that maybe you're off pace. Oh, here we go again. And so the challenges here is that you create a whole sort of cascade.

of things, for lack of a better way of putting it, that you could avoid if you simply fueled well from the beginning. Don't set yourself up both for a physical and a mental negative, either in a workout or a race, that can have impacts down the line. It's actually really important. And then we know in the macro, when people maybe have an ambivalent relationship with caloric intake and have an ambivalent relationship with food, we know that it doesn't just have physical impact, but it can also impact your mental health. Because the two go hand in hand. Let's remember, the brain is a physical organ. The lungs are, your skin is the largest organ in your body, your heart is an organ. The brain is an organ. So we don't need to try to separate the

mental and the physical. As much as I think we tend to do, there's a symbiosis there. And there is a relationship, we can have physical manifestations of emotional stress, for instance. And so be really conscious to the fact how we eat, how we fuel, how we love ourselves, how we treat our bodies can impact literally everything. And I think that's really important. Yeah, we know that obviously lighter is generally faster, but not lighter at the expense of being underfueled. Yes.

And as you were mentioning, you know, or alluding to, like, there are a lot of eating disorders in the running community. I think one of the things that I've identified is as runners become more elite and they become faster and faster and faster, sometimes that is where the unhealthy relationship with food and eating disorder starts to present itself because they fear gaining weight because they want to become faster. So they end up, or they end up digging themselves a whole by reducing caloric intake, underfueling, trying to get faster, end up getting injured. But then with newer runners, which might be applicable to some of the listeners of this episode.

Sure. What I've also found on the flip side of that is people start training for their first marathon. They are and they expect to be expending a whole lot more calories, their appetite, increases. A lot of times new runners will consume an excess of calories outside of what they're expending. And in a first marathon prep, they might actually gain weight because they're overestimating how much they're actually burning in comparison to what they are in excess of consuming. So there's like a double side of that coin there where if this is your first marathon, yes, you need to fuel your training. But it is not this like golden ticket to go eat whatever you want. I remember my first marathon prep. I had to run a 10-mile run on one of those

first runs in 2018. And I thought I'd burn thousands of calories. That day, I probably ate 6,000 calories, thinking that I was trying to make up for what I lost, but it's not as for the case. No. I think the general rule is eat a diet that your doctor would be proud of. Don't shy away from proteins. One of the laments, and I was talking to somebody else about this the other day, is sort of the bastardization of red meat in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, because we were all going to die of heart attacks if we ate steak, right? And then the bastardization of sodium, I has been a big problem because we tend to not get in enough sodium when we're running. Let's make sure, unless you have some philosophical objections,

and there's a way to be a healthy vegetarian, there's a way to be a healthy vegan, but really make sure that you're understanding your body's needs when it comes to iron intake, proteins, carbs, getting everything that you need to function well. But the point is, eat a balanced diet that has proteins, plenty of carbohydrates, plenty of green leafy vegetables, plenty of fruits, eat legumes, cut your alcohol intake, you know, a bucket of fried chicken, hot Cheetos, and a soda might have exactly the same amount of calories as a T-bone steak, some mashed potatoes, and a salad with some steamed spinach, right? But you got to look at the quality of the calories, not just the quantity of them, right?

And then on your training days, really understand what you're putting your body through and make sure you're getting in the electrolytes and the calories during the actual exertion so that you can maximize your ability to perform. And there's tons of resources out there. There's tons of people who know sort of the general parameters within which you need to operate who can really, really help you if you have a lot of questions. Amen. man, Jeff, my brother. Another great episode. I think we nailed a lot of this, how to train for your first marathon.

I don't want to do this one solo, and I figured I'd bring on the expert to assist in this one. Always appreciate you. I might not be an expert, but I finally decided that my verbosity, it might be my only transferable skill in life. I like it. Hey, I can talk a lot.

Well, Jeff, I always appreciate you, man. Thank you so much. Love you, brother.