The Nick Bare Podcast - 115: The Rise of the King of Moab with Max Jolliffe

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

The King of Moab is here. In this episode, we sit down with Max Jolliffe, an ultra runner who recently claimed victory at the Moab 240. Max opens up about his journey from struggling with addiction to finding purpose and success in ultra running. We get into his training regimen, the psychological and physical challenges of ultra-running, and the life-changing decisions that have shaped his path and the relentless pursuit of personal growth.CHAPTERS:00:44 Discussing the Moab 240 Film01:42 Overcoming Adversity During the Race05:47 The Final Push to Victory13:35 Max's Running Journey18:29 The Power of Small Wins25:17 Struggles with Addiction and Getting Sober33:02 The Importance of Community and Support43:38 Getting into Running: A Life-Changing Decision47:11 The Importance of Running Competence50:01 Realizing Potential in Running53:00 The Mental Strength in Ultra Running01:13:51 Training and Preparation for Moab01:18:44 Final Thoughts and Future GoalsMENTIONS:Winning by Tim GroverRelentless by Tim GroverOutliers by Malcom GladwellWatch King of Moab filmhttps://youtu.be/euOpy884bgQ?si=0CZvV5npJdfG2r__CONNECT:Become a BPN member FOR FREE - Unlock 20% off FOR LIFEhttps://www.bareperformancenutrition.com/pages/bpn-membership?srsltid=AfmBOorlpjVeag2kkt3eZ5UpWcFA5Bb2v5V_93lmO47Vn_Y8DRdLwDLLFOLLOW:IG: instagram.com/nickbarefitness/YT: youtube.com/@nickbarefitnessKEEP UP WITH MAXIG: @woah_max

Today on the podcast, we have Max Jolif, the king of Moab. Welcome, brother. Thanks for having me. What's going on? Another much. We're just here at BPN Athlete Week, just having a blast. It's a good week. Yeah.

It's a really good week. I got the opportunity to meet you for the first time yesterday. Yep. At the shooting range. At the gun range. And I got to log some miles with you, share some miles with you this morning. It's been a great week so far, so I appreciate you. No, thank you for having me.

and the newest BPN athlete. Yeah. So congratulations. Thank you. It's an honor to be on the team. I love having you on the team. Yeah. Thank you.

I want to jump right into it. Okay. All right. So I recently just finished your film on Moab. And it was incredible. Thank you. Thank you. And there were so many parts of that film that really stood out.

But there's one specifically that you got emotional at which got me emotional at. And at this point, the race, you're 200 miles in to a 240-mile ultra in in Moab, Utah. You are 15 miles behind first place at Geyser Pass Aid Station, and you had the opportunity to go take the win

with 40 miles. miles left. And you said, my legs were gifted back to me. Yeah. Can you take me back to that exact moment and explain what was happening? Yeah. I mean, it's like, I feel like it was so crazy just how everything came together. And almost I couldn't believe that this like honestly, like miracle had happened to me. So for the first hundred and some odd miles of the race, I was leading, I mean, Harry Ledford the first 20 miles and then we kind of, we were going back and forth, like at the beginning of the race. But for a solid 100 miles, I was leading the race and pushing pretty hard. And once I got to the 140 mile mark, I came into that aid station. And it was after this

big downhill section. And my legs just, I mean, running downhill at mile 140, my legs just had, were shot. And my quads were cramping and see. up and I took a little nap and got a little reset. My legs kind of came back, but it was like I was encountering this adversity with my legs where I felt like I'd come into these aid stations and my legs would be so beat up where I was like, I don't even know if I can make it to the next age. I don't even know if I can continue walking, let alone running for even another mile, two miles, three miles. And I got a hundred more to go in this race. And, um, Yeah, at mile 140 and 170, both of those times I walked into those aid stations with my legs just so shot that I couldn't, I didn't know how it was going to be possible for me to even continue or finish the race.

And then kind of the same thing happened at that mile 200 aid station where I came in and I was like, I need to just get my legs back. and everything kind of had just come together where I got some good food in me. I got a quick little rest. I took a little nap. I got the message from Cam, which was just like super inspirational. I got a hit of adrenaline, you know, seeing the tracker and, you know, Harry Beans. It's like the stars had kind of aligned for me to get this opportunity to make this move. And for the last 40 miles, my legs were just, they were just, they were.

were there, which was crazy. For no one, for no one who has ever, like, experienced that before, can you try to, like, articulate and explain what it means when you say, like, your legs turn back on and what the opposite is of them being off? Like, what kind of pain are you feeling in your legs? It's just, like, a pain that's so, yeah, it's like, everything's just, yeah, it's like, everything's just so tight. I mean, when I would look at my quads, my muscle fibers were like fluttering on my quad muscles. So just think of like a really bad cramp. Everything's just super tight. It almost

feels impossible to move. And then getting a little reset or taking some electrolytes, doing things that can fix that issue. were like what I did. And I was just getting a little bit of relief each time. But like that last, and maybe it was just like mental strength of like I'm just going to dig deep and grind this out and not even think about the pain. It's like my adrenaline for just trying to make that move at the very end. Like just made my pain disappear.

Like I ran some of my fastest miles of the entire race after leaving that mile 200 aid station. That's crazy. Which is insane. Yeah. It's impossible. It seems like it should be impossible. Like how can someone do that? Yeah.

And like it's even crazy to me and it happened to me, you know? I mean, I obviously wasn't at the race. Yeah. But I got to kind of relive it with you in the film. Can you kind of talk about the mindset shift that happened with those 40 miles left? Because from the way that I kind of experienced it through you in the film, it was, like this warrior mentality came back at mile 200 and it was all this aggression and grit and it was like, I'm going to take this back.

Because I mean, this is an epic story where there's 40 miles left at the race. You're 15 miles behind and you come back to win. I would say that's typically kind of unheard of. Right. And mind you against one of the greatest 200 mile runners of all time in my first 200 mile race that I ever ran. Yeah, it's the mindset going into that last, you know, leaving that last aid station, I mean, like the message from Cam helped so much. I just being with my crew, like my crew fired me up. Mackenzie made the decision for me that I had to go alone with no

pacer in that last section. Like, it was all on me to just try to make up some of this gap. And to be honest, I wasn't even, I didn't even know if it would be possible. with that amount with only 40 miles left to catch this guy that's already 15 miles ahead of me. So I just wanted to try to close the gap a little bit. And the more the more progress I was making on him, the more energy it was giving me. It was like every mile that I was gaining on him was giving me more power to continue on and push harder. And it was almost this snowball effect of just digging deep and really just going to

for it, like taking my Hail Mary shot at, like, trying to win. Because, and like, there were even like seeds. Like, I, I didn't know if it would have been possible for me to come back from that big of a gap. And, yeah, I just, I was like, I just have to try. This is my only opportunity. It's the end of the race. This is my chance. Like, I'm, I just got to go for it, no matter what. And at what point did you, how many miles left when you passed him? So it was between the, the last aid station. and the finish line. I think we were maybe two or three miles out from that,

past that aid station. And I was checking the tracker because I didn't have phone service for pretty much the entire race until the last leaving mile 200. I finally got service. So I was on my phone checking the tracker, seeing how far he was ahead of me. And on the tracker, you can see people's speed at how fast they're moving. And I kept seeing that he was either moving really slow or stopped.

So I'd see that and I'd be like this, I can make up some ground here and just push hard. I'm going to run for the next 30 minutes, not even look at my watch and just run as hard as I can. And then I checked the tracker again in 30 minutes. And I was like, miles were coming off the distance between me and him. And it wasn't until I was maybe two to three miles out. So I had gained 13 miles. on him where I was like, holy shit, I'm actually catching him. And yeah, just got really emotional just in the middle of the desert in Utah, in the middle of the night, running by myself, just crying.

After you passed him? No, before I passed him. And then I stopped. And so when I passed him, I didn't even see him. I saw his pacer. He was actually sleeping in a bush. And I just made, I made sure to stop and I asked if they needed anything and I wanted to make sure that he was okay before I continued on. And then when I continued on, I was like, holy shit, I can't believe I'm going to win him up. It was, yeah, it was just like crazy. How many miles left were of the race when you passed him? Probably, probably somewhere like 15 miles. So 15 miles out from the finish. And from those last 15 miles, you pretty much knew. You were taking him to win. Yeah. How emotional was that?

Like, would that feel like? It was crazy. I could not believe that everything that happened in the race was happening. Like, I couldn't believe that it was happening to me, you know? Yeah, just like, I have so much respect for Harry, this guy that I was doing battle with. I mean, he's like such an amazing ultra runner. And he's just a legend. And one of the greatest to ever do it. and to like pass him.

I don't know. It was just, yeah, I just honestly couldn't believe it. And then when you cross the finish line, how surreal was that moment breaking the tape? It was, I was actually just talking to Jordan out there about it, or Trey. I was in this weird, like, disassociated dream state for even like days after the race.

And I think part of that is just from being aware, and moving and exerting myself for 69 hours straight that I almost saw what was happening to my life, to me and my life from like a third person perspective. It was like very strange experience. And yeah, and even for the next like week or so after the race, like I didn't feel normal or myself for quite a while. And part of that's like after an ultra, you can't, you can't sleep. So I had already not slept for three days. And then couldn't sleep for another four or five days. So my brain was just on the fritz and everything seemed weird and strange and surreal.

Yeah, it was like, that was a very unexpected thing that kind of happened at the end of the race and afterwards. I kind of want to talk about what is Moab 240. Yeah. For anyone listening to this who wasn't familiar with the race, because you didn't just go win another ultra. You won the ultra. Yeah. Like Moab 240. Can you briefly explain the audience who might not be familiar with the train, the distance, the notoriety of this race?

So Moab 240, it's one of, I mean, there's not too many 200-mile races out there. And there's only a couple that are even longer than 200. So Moab 240, Kokadona 250. I mean, these are regarded as like some of the longest. toughest races in the world. And Moab specifically has kind of become popular from very notorious people running the race like David Gaggins, Courtney DeWalter, Cam Haynes. So that's like I found out about that race through those people. And I don't know, to me, after running multiple hundred-mileers, it was just like the next great challenge, you know. And I,

When I submitted my entry into Moab and I got accepted, I literally dedicated my entire year to training for Moab. And that was like multiple races leading up to Moab, which was at the end of the year. It was like I had planned and dedicated my entire life to training and competing in this race. Yeah. I've heard you talk about the prep on other podcasts and interviews. And it's truly impressive, like the dedication you committed to for that entire year. So your performance by no means was a chance. It was all earned because the work you put in.

I eventually want to get to talk about your prep. But really lay the foundation of how you got to where you are right now. Because your running journey and career, which is very short, is so unique in this space. and for you to win Moab after only a few years of running is so unique. I heard you describe, I think it was with the podcast you did with Sally, where you're kind of like this black sheep in the ultra-running community.

Why do you say that? Just because I don't have the stereotypical background. Like I didn't even run in high school. I didn't run in college. I started running when I was like in my mid to late 20s. And, yeah, like, everything has just happened so quick that I feel like, I don't know, maybe I just feel different than some of the most elite guys or even the guys that I'm competing against. Like, most of these dudes have been running ultras and competing for 10, 15, 20 years. Decades.

Yeah, decades. And I'm like, I ran my first one in 2022, you know? So, yeah, it's just I feel like, I feel like. Yeah, my rise to where I'm at now is just, like, not been the typical path to professional runner or ultra runner. Yeah. And like, I didn't even really expect any of this. I just, like, wanted a challenge. And I just love training.

So you didn't start running until 2017. Yeah, around 2017. Yeah. And your first ultra was 2020. 22. To 22. ran my first marathon in 2019. What was the first marathon?

It was O.C. Marathon. It's my hometown marathon. What was your time there? 327. I was just shooting for four hours. I was like that people say four hours that seems like a decent time for a first marathon and I ran 327. So I just like, I mean, that's been

like my experience. Every race I like have this conservative number that I'm I think that would maybe be a good result. And I always like end up exceeding my expectations. And definitely this last year and all the success in the races is kind of like, I don't know, raised my expectations of what I'm capable of, you know? And yeah, just like even Moab was just like a huge validation for me that I belong here and I'm capable of performing, again,

some of the best in the world. And yeah. It's kind of like what we were talking about in the run this morning. Totally. Where, and I use the term glass ceiling because it's what my running coach

Jeff Cunningham, the way he described it to me, it's like people in life will have like this glass ceiling for the potential they think they can achieve. And then once you break that glass ceiling, it doesn't necessarily like raise the glass ceiling. It eliminates the glass ceiling.

It eliminates the glass ceiling. see, right. And you realize after that, that holy shit, nothing is impossible. I can go chase down whatever it is I want. And one of my favorite, like, stories and lessons from one of my favorite books, it's by this author, Tim Grover. Tim Grover was the personal trainer for Kobe, for Jordan, a lot of the greats in basketball. Yeah. And his book, winning is incredible. He has another book called Relentless, great books. And one of the lessons and stories he talks about in winning is that in life,

you need to set a goal and chase it down. And when you accomplish that first goal, when you finally get that first win, that win in sales confidence. And it provides you enough confidence to go after a bigger win. and eventually we get that bigger win, it builds more confidence. So we now start this streak in life of setting goals that become harder and harder and harder.

And as we accomplish them, we gain more confidence. As we fail towards them, we just make improvements and refine. So this entire process is just getting better. And we remove the glass ceiling. And that's what all of these goals that we're setting can do for us.

It's not just getting a metal or a buckle or saying we ran this certain time. It has effect on every other part of our life. For you, I love to hear like, what is that first win? Maybe in life as a whole, but running specifically, what are some of those first wins that you ever experienced that unlocked this realization that, dude, I can do whatever I want? Yeah. I think in life, like when I was when I was younger, when I was a kid, when I was growing up, I never really felt like I was good at anything. Like I definitely wasn't a good athlete. I don't know. I never really felt like I was winning or I was succeeding.

And I got caught up in just a bunch of stuff as a young adult and got addicted to drugs. and after high school just had no direction. And my life was going down a really bad path. And I made the decision to get sober when I was 20 years old. So that was probably the first, like, big achievement or, like, thing that I did where I set myself down the right path. And it felt like, I mean, every day that I was able to stay sober felt like a win. because for a long time, I couldn't stay clean for one single day.

So that, like, and it's almost like, I'm a run streaker. So like when you get sober, it's like every day, you're on this like streak of sobriety. So that's, I don't know, I see a lot of parallels with just like me getting sober and my journey and running that have provided me a lot of validation and success and just goals along the way. I mean, starting from when I got sober, like, I had no life. I had nothing going on. I didn't have a job. I was going nowhere fast. I really had nothing.

And just being able to, like, put a little bit of a life together and, like, get a job and, like, live a normal life and learn how to, you know, just deal with everyday life. And lessons I learned along the way and, you know, setting goals at work or setting goals with hobbies. it was like, and then I find running. And then running is like such a great way to set little attainable, achievable goals where, like I remember when I first started running. Like I couldn't run three miles outside. And I was, I remember thinking if I could run 10 miles, like that's like, if I could run 10 miles without stopping, like that's like the ultimate goal.

Like that seemed impossible for me at one point in time. And then just like working towards that. And every time I'd go for a run, like, try to run a little bit further closer to that 10 mile goal or try to run a little bit faster. And then it was just these small little wins that I was getting along the way. And like you said, it's like the snowball effect. It just builds confidence. Like, oh, I can do this thing.

Maybe I can set a new goal and run 10 miles. And then, hey, I just ran 10 miles. It's like almost a half marathon. Maybe I can sign up and train for a marathon. And like, that's the next goal. And then run one marathon. and then it's like, okay, I'm going to do another one. And then I'm going to try this ultra trail race.

And it's just like that's been my progression into running. It's just like finding these new challenges, these new goals and working towards them and achieving the goals. Yeah. It's actually a really good observation that you just put it out that I believe I sometimes overlook is we talk about these wins that build confidence. I think it's really easy to look at these wins as these big things on the scoreboard, like a hundred mile of race or surpassing a certain revenue goal in your business. Or like graduating with a certain degree, getting a certain promotion, like these big scoreboard celebration type wins. Sometimes the small wins are even more important. Exactly.

Yeah. And until you just said that, I didn't think about it. We're like people might be going through something in life. and it's the small wins that provide the confidence just to keep going one additional day. It's not these big Hail Mary wins that you need all the time to keep pushing forward. And that can even be just like making my bed in the morning or like eating healthy during the day. Not, you know, I mean, yeah, like quitting smoking cigarettes, like not smoking a cigarette for an entire day. that was at one point in time was a win for me.

So yeah, it's like it can be literally anything that's a goal that you set for yourself to do to just make yourself better. So your life now looks completely different than it did. Totally different. Yeah. I mean, if you told me 10, 15 years ago where I would beat it. There's no way I could have even imagined. Like I didn't even know I didn't even know I was any good at running. It was just like kind of this thing.

that I stumbled into by accident. I was like, oh, I'm actually kind of, for one, like this thing. And somewhere along the line, I really fell in love with running and training. And especially from not being a talented athlete. And, yeah, I just like really decided to, once I found out that I liked it and I was kind of good at it, I was like, I'm just going to lean into this thing and push myself and see where it takes me. Yeah.

I think some of the most successful people in life, I feel. found this common denominator. It's pretty universal. Where earlier in their life, they weren't perceived as anything great. I mean, you have like the every once in a while stud athlete or genius that was younger and then just kind of transcended into the LeBron James. Exactly. But there are so many people like myself included where I remember being in high school, looking around at all my peers and friends thinking they're all smarter than me they're all more talented to me

than they're all better at sports than me so I just accepted the fact that I'm just like this average kid who's going to live an average life and achieve nothing great but then I found something that I was passionate about never with the intent of like turning into something great but I was truly passionate about it

and I just started refining my craft And that naturally led me to chapters of success and wins. It's like Malcolm Gladwell's outliers. It's like when opportunity meets preparation is when greatness happens. I fully believe in that. So what was it when you were younger after struggling with addiction, substance abuse, that was the catalyst to you getting sober? what was the catalyst to me getting sober?

Yeah. It was just like, dude, I was like, I was dying. Like I was overdosing. I was getting arrested. It was like literally the walls of my life were caving in. Like the decision was made for me. Like I didn't have a decision. Like my probation officer showed, like the day I got sober and my probation officer showed up at my house.

I'd been on formal probation from getting in trouble, getting arrested before. And I'm on probation. and I failed 10 drug tests. Like, I literally could not get clean. Did you want to get clean? Yeah. I wanted to, and I just couldn't, you know, I was stuck. And I mean, I was a heroin addict.

Like, I literally could not get sober. And as much as I tried and I had tried multiple times. And I had little brief stints of sobriety, but I was just like so stuck. And I just like got arrested again and got probation officer showed up in my house. And she's like, hey, you've failed your 10th drug. test, you're going in for a probation violation. Like, you're done. You're out of here. And I was like, okay, this is, you know, this is what I get. And I remember that being a point where I was like, this might be my only opportunity to get sober is like just getting taken away, locked up,

getting put away from just all the bullshit and the people that I was around and just this, like shitty life that I was stuck in. And I was like, if I can just spend three months in jail. Like, I mean, you can get, I mean, there's drugs in jail, but I was, I was like, this might be my chance to just, like, be removed from my life and just really start down this new path and make a decision where I'm just going to be sober. Like, I can't, I tried many different ways of just drinking or just trying to smoke weed or, you know, switching from one thing to another. And nothing ever worked for me. It's like, I'm, have such an addictive mind and I take everything to the extreme that there's no it's just all or

nothing for me. There's no like maintaining like a little bit of partying. It's, uh, and as crazy as this might sound is like that thing, that obsession that kept me fucked up for so long and was literally killing me, I believe is almost the same thing that makes me great at what I do now. And my, gives me drive and dedication and like literally the same obsession, like I'm obsessed with running. I've just kind of switched my, my vice from this thing that was killing me to this thing that's like, I mean, sometimes it feels like it's killing me, but this thing that's, you know, given me this beautiful life, this challenge, like, I mean, running like, it really saved my life. Yeah. Which is crazy that like how, like how can running save your life, you know?

I feel like I hear so many people say that, though. And I'm curious, like, your thoughts on this, but I've met a lot of people who have kind of taken their obsession with whatever it is. A lot of times substance abuse, drugs, alcohol, and taking that from that substance to running or endurance sports and it become just as addicted to that sport. If you can harness that power, it's so powerful. Or if you can harness that, it's super, super powerful.

Yeah. When you got out of jail, so you were in jail for three months? Three months, yeah. What changes did you make other than just not using drugs and alcohol? Yeah. I got super involved with 12-step groups. And from like my small stints of sobriety from like trying to, to get sober. I knew where to go and I knew what to do. I was just for so long stuck in this place

where I just couldn't make it back there. And as soon as I got out of jail, I just like surrounded myself with good, sober people. And I like really like just got this whole new community of people that like actually for the first time in my life, I was surrounded by people who cared about me and wanted the best for me and were showing me how to live a normal life and do the right thing. And yeah, that was kind of just like the biggest change that I made was like who I surrounded myself with. So one of the things we were talking about in the drive over here is like the famous saying and quote, like, show me your friends and I will show you who you are. Show me your team and I will show you your future.

Yeah, exactly. Did you make a really hard cut when you got out of jail saying like the people that I used to associate with are no longer going to be in my life? Yeah. And it was like, I mean, it was crazy. when I just doing the shit that I was doing like being a heroin addict like like those people started dying like people were dying left and right um and yeah that was just like I mean such a wake up call where I was like I just like don't want to die because I knew that I was on that path where there was like it's either jail death or institutions like that's like the only options for

someone who's like struggling with addiction. It's like that that road ends nowhere good. And it was just like this new path was the only path for me. It was the only option. And I just never wanted to go back. I never want to feel like how I felt the day before I got sober. It was like every day of my life up until April 6th, 2012, every day felt like the worst day of my life. Day after day after day. And it was like, I just never want to go back there. I never want to feel like that again. And yeah, that's like a huge driving force for me to just stay on this path, you know. I'm sure that like that journey was very challenging. Yeah. And I mean, I don't have personal experience with addiction, but like just talking to people who have good.

gone through that. Yeah. And then becoming sober, like the challenge of what that is. Yeah. Was there a moment after you decided to get sober, went to jail, came home, where you finally realized, oh, I have a grasp of my life again, and I can take it to wherever I want. Was there a day?

Like, holy crap. Yeah. I think that just, like, was pretty gradual and came over time with just like starting to piece, just starting to piece my life back together. and like getting a job at a cool company and like making new friends and, you know, like, dating and like just, just the growing up. Like I had never grown up. I was just living this life that was miserable and shitty and going nowhere.

And then I start on this path and I'm like, oh, now I'm like actually living a normal life. And it was, I don't know if there was a certain moment where I felt that, but it was just like those small wins along the way, you know? moving out of a sober living house into a like apartment with friends like that was a big milestone uh getting promotions at at work like that was a big milestone like doing new things like starting to like getting back into surfing getting back into skateboarding uh all these things that i had kind of like given up on my life it was like a lot of those things where i was i don't know it was just like oh i'm getting my life back yeah i'm curious your thoughts on this and like based off experience.

And a lot of the thought of this is coming around just like this being BPN Athlete Week. It's like all the athletes are in town flown in from out of state, out of country, bringing people together. And one of the things you and I were talking about was just the power of having people together in your corner who are trying to do great things. Yeah. And not just achieve like great success, but also putting a lot of importance around the how they're, are achieving great success.

How much of an influence was like your friend group and the people around you growing up that led you to this downward spiral of addiction? And then on the flip side, having a powerful community to help you get out of it. Because I think it's really easy to look at people who have made wrong decisions and put all the blame on them. But you're also a product of your environment. And if that's all you know, you can make the decisions on your own. But like your community, your group, your friends, your peers, they're going to lead you in the wrong direction sometimes.

So choosing who's in your corner, who's in your circle is so important for all seasons of life. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, definitely it was, and there's this like weird camaraderie that I have with a lot of my friends who we were all on the same path together. And like, I mean, I've had a lot of friends pass away and a lot of friends die, but I'm lucky that some of my very, very best friends who, I feel like we were in the trenches together. Like, a lot of my friends are sober. So I'm like not the only one. And I've been able to help some of these guys get sober, which is like a huge gift. And I feel like honored to lead by example for a lot of my friends that maybe haven't been sober as long as me. But yeah, just like, I don't know, I'm uplifted and inspired by, you know, a lot of these guys that we're spending time with this week. Like, I feel like I'm just super inspired about some of the guys' passions for just, I mean, even lifting or triathlon, like stuff that I don't even do. And I don't know. It's like, it's cool that you can be uplifted by others.

and yeah, you're not like destined or stuck to a certain group of people. Like everyone can be elevated together. And I can overcome something and help others overcome maybe some of their struggles. And, yeah, be inspired by new people that I'm meeting. Like, yeah, it's a cool thing. I get really inspired by people who aren't necessarily doing exactly what I'm doing. But have a lot of people. They have the same passion.

A lot of passion and care for their work. Like when I watch someone, like Russell Orphe is a great example. Russ is a world-level elite powerlifter. And when I watch him train, he's by himself, headphones on. Beast. He is at war. Yeah. He cares about the smallest details.

He's so intentional. Like he's getting after it. When you watch someone that is so passionate and cares about their craft and their skill what they do, you can't help but be inspired. Yeah. And then apply that to your life. Right. It doesn't have to be the same activities, sport, career, anything. But when you see someone care so much about what they do, you respect that. Yeah. And you want to carry that over into your life. Yeah. And I love that you mentioned that when the conversation that we had earlier at the athlete house, it's like caring is like caring about what you're doing is like so simple,

but such an important thing. Like, I feel like in my life, like when I was younger, and this is like so, it's so funny. I used to think it was cool, like, in skateboarding. Like these guys that would, like, get drunk and go skate. And, like, it almost seemed like they didn't care about anything. And, like, not giving a fuck was cool. And nowadays it's, like, I think that's so lame.

Like, I really love an, And I'm inspired by the people that work really, really hard for something and care a lot. And maybe they don't even achieve that goal. Maybe they attempt and fail multiple, multiple times. But, like, that's way more appealing to me than, like, the guy that just, like, doesn't even try and is, like, just gifted and talented. Like, I like the guy that's, like, working and failing over and over and over. And then to see that person finally succeed, like, there's nothing cooler than that. I wonder what it is because when I was younger

was the same way like you put these people It was cool not to care But when and why does it shift at some point where you realize That's not cool man Yeah no yeah I think maybe once you start to value hard work It's like that's the people putting in the work It's like I don't give a shit about the phenom

That's just like it comes super easy to him Like I work really hard for everything that I've done and achieved. It's like, it's just like so much more relatable for like the, the guy that's that's actually trying, actually putting in the work, actually caring and winning. Like that's, I, that's the juice right there. Yeah. Yeah. I love the, the, like, come from behind the underdog, underdog stories. Like, Rudy, the movie Rudy is a great example of like, truly coming from behind being the underdog, no one ever believed in them.

And they don't pursue greatness or to accomplish these goals to prove anyone else wrong. It's because they truly, going back to their passion and they care about it, they want to do it for themselves. They work so hard to get it done. And they finally do.

There's so much respect behind the process that they endured. Yeah. I mean, you're like your entire, last 10 to 15 years has been this process of refinement to get you to where you're at right now. So the successes that you're experiencing is just from this compounding consistency of over a decade now and making this massive shift in your life. It's a power of like a decision.

People's lives and I don't think many people realize this, your life can change today from one decision. Exactly. And it resets the trajectory. Of your entire life. Your entire life. You look back 10 years later and you're like, if I didn't make that one decision, if I didn't get sober, if I didn't pursue this goal,

I wouldn't be here right now. If I didn't risk it. If you didn't go for the risk. There's so much power in like one decision. But a lot of people don't realize like they have that power because they're constantly playing defense. But you have the ability to play. put yourself in offense.

Yeah. It's powerful. Very powerful. Yeah, I feel, I just feel lucky, man. I just feel lucky. Well, it's been a lot of work. Yeah. A lot of preparation.

Right. I do believe in luck. There's moments, so we're provided these opportunities. And everything seems to come together magically. Yep. By some force, yeah. I want to take a quick break in this episode to talk to you guys about how I use our products around my endurance training and how you can as well.

Now, here at BPN, we've created products to fuel your performance and optimize your recovery. But I want to talk specifically around how I use these products in my morning run. Before my morning run every morning, I'm not training fasted. I want carbohydrates and I want electrolytes. So I consume two scoops of G1M Sport, which is our carbohydrate and electrolyte powder, and one go bar, which is our lightweight oat-based bar. With this combination, I'm getting about 800 milligrams of sodium and 76 grams of carbohydrates total. Carbohydrates for the fuel, electrolytes for the hydration. This is going to set me up to have the best run possible.

fuel and hydration. Now, based off of the distance, duration, and intensity of that run, I will add in go gels during the workout. And the go gel is our simple ingredient, endurance gel, 24 grams of carbohydrates in each gel and 110 milligrams of sodium. We have a non-caffeinated version and a caffeinated version. The caffeinated version has 75 milligrams of caffeine per gel. And I'll have one go gel every 30 to 45 minutes or every four to five miles. And we really created the go gel for these bigger effort runs or endurance training sessions and races.

They are extremely useful during races because you get a quick hit of energy from the fuel, the carbohydrates, some hydration from the electrolytes, the sodium. but they also digest very easily. So you're not going to have stomach discomfort and GI distress. And then after my run, I want to rehydrate. So I'm always adding in our electrolyte powder, one to two scoops. Each scoop has 500 milligrams of sodium, full electrolyte profile. So I'm using our products to fuel training, enhance hydration, maintain effort-intensity,

during training sessions with the go gel and then rehydrating immediately after. So that's how I use our products around my early morning runs and all my endurance training and how you can as well. So go to BPNSups.com. Check out all of our endurance products to fuel your performance. And now back to the episode. So I do want to talk about how you got into running. Yeah.

Because I think it's a very interesting story. Yeah. You know, from I understand, you had a roommate at the time. He was a bodybuilder. Yeah. You had a skating injury. Yeah. And then he kind of convinced you to go to the gym.

Yeah. And this is kind of going back to like that decision, like another decision that kind of changed the trajectory in my life. It was, I was just like, I was out of shape. I hadn't done anything for six months. I was pretty much on the couch. I was on a knee scooter. I was on crutches and a knee scooter for a long time. And I was just super out of shape.

just feeling shitty. And I remember him saying like, hey, one of the best investments you can make in your life is in your health and your fitness. And why don't you just start coming to the gym with me? I'll show you, just pay the $30 for the 24-hour gym membership and I'll just show you what to do. And I was like, okay. How'd you be this guy by chance? We got sober together.

Yeah. Okay. So a friend I had made through sobriety. And I ended up moving in with him. We were living together. and yeah, I just started going to the gym with him. And he was showed me, I mean, I had lifted. I was on the wrestling team in high school,

and we'd go to the gym and lift. But he really showed me just like different exercises and just the stuff that he was pretty much doing. And I liked going to the gym. I liked pushing myself. But I at the time wasn't, I mean, I love lifting now. But at the time, I wasn't really trying to do what he was doing. I mean, he was like bodybuilder. And I was like, I'm just going to kind of start to do my own

thing. And I eventually found myself just gravitating to the cardio area at the gym. And like, before I started running, I actually got like addicted to the stair climber. Like the stair machine was my first real entrance into like endurance athletics. Like I would go to the gym and do the stair climber for an hour. And I was like, yeah. This is like, so hard and difficult that like I just like difficult things. I liked, I just craved the challenge. And I couldn't even run because my ankle was still messed up. So I hadn't even ran on the treadmill yet. And I was just like going to the gym and just doing the stair climber for an hour, hour and a half. Like just was so, I just got hooked. And eventually I transitioned to running

on the treadmill. And I was running on the treadmill before I ever ran outside. And I remember this point in time where I went to the gym and I was like, why am I paying for this gym membership if I'm just like running on the treadmill? Like I can, I can just run outside and save the 30 bucks a month that I'm paying for this gym membership. And yeah, just one day I was like laced up my shoes and went for a run outside and it was like two or three miles. And yeah, I was like, I was hooked. And just slowly adding volume after that. Slowly adding volume, just trying to run a little bit further, a little bit faster, just like continuously like push myself, just tried to improve. Like I was like, this is hard and difficult and a challenge like,

and I can see that there's a path to getting better at this thing. So I'm just going to, yeah, I'm just going to see how much better I can get. And then, you know, run in a marathon, catch the bug. You run another marathon. It's just like, it's just been the snowball of just finding these little challenges for myself. Yeah. To quote my running coach Jeff Cunningham again. Yeah.

One of the things he always says is because people ask them the question when they first start running, when does it get easier? He's like you got to get to a point where you get running competence. And running competence is like you have to go through the painful parts where it's uncomfortable. It hurt. It doesn't feel good. And like one day you unlock running competence or you're just like settled in. Yeah. Oh, man, this actually feels pretty good.

Yeah. And that might take months. It takes months to get their running competence. But by unlocking that, you now can start exploring new routes and new distances and different races. But it's like giving yourself the time to get their running competence. Because I thought to so many people who are like, I don't understand how you can fall in love with running. You haven't given it the true chance, man. Just do it for a little bit longer.

Let it settle in. But those effects like finally start to like produce on the round. Yeah. Yeah. And like I don't even know when that happened for me. It was just somewhere along the line like I just fell in love with running. And I mean, later on it became very habitual. But it just like became part of my life.

Like I just at some point in time I was like, I'm a runner. This is what I do. This is what I like. This is my thing. Like I had finally like it was almost like I found purpose in my life through running. Yeah. you say you like didn't fall in love with like the weight section of the gym yeah but dude i was going through the photos from the lift at x workout yesterday and there's this photo i don't know if

rudy or tray took it of you am i on the fly machine you're on the shoulder press okay yeah yeah it's yeah it's like this um warped motion blur yeah motion blur and just like covered in tats with shoulder press i was like this is one of those badass photos I've seen in a while. Oh, thank you. There might be a future of like strength training and your cards. No, yeah. I really enjoy strength training.

And my girlfriend, she's a personal trainer. So we train in the gym all the time. But yeah, I use it to improve my running. And I like, I do like lifting. And I think that kind of came later. But yeah, it's all one and the same. Yeah. I think strength training always is a place for endurance athletes. Makes you bulletproof.

Yeah, it makes you durable, makes you stronger, especially with these massive efforts, like 200 plus mile races. Strength is such a critical component. And often overlooked. Yeah, I agree. That's why a lot of runners end up getting injured, like overuse injuries. At what point in this journey, you start running, you're signing up for races, you have marathons, jumping into ultras. At what point did you have the realization that you had potential in this sport

and that you could take it somewhere? Yeah. I had, I think this was the beginning of 2023. I signed up for this, I mean, it was a super small marathon in Red Rocks in Nevada, just outside of Vegas. And I think it was only like maybe. 100 people, 150 people that ran the race. Super beautiful, really fun road marathon. But I showed up to this race to just like kind of run it for fun and wanted to put down a hardish effort. And I ended up

winning this road marathon. I was like, holy should I just won a marathon? Like, what the hell? Like, that's insane. And then later on that year, I ended up running my first 100 mile. and then I got second place at this 100 mile race. And I was like against my now friend, Jesse Haynes, the guy who won Moab the year previous to me, who's like just been such a huge inspiration and influence and mentor for me in ultra running. But it was like those two things.

And then in September or October of that same year, I showed up to this race, this 50-mile ultra called Saddles, which is in Arizona. It's a satisfied race. It's put on by Michael Verstieg. And I just showed up to, like, volunteer and help out during the race. And Mike was like,

hey, if you want to run the 50 mile, 50 or the 100, he's like, if you want to run either of these races tomorrow, like, I have a bib for you. Like, you can just jump in. And I was like, I don't,

like, I didn't even have any nutrition with me. Like, luckily I had brought a trail vest because I was planning on pacing a friend that was running the 100-mileer. And I was like, maybe I'll just like jump in for fun, you know? Like I got and not having any nutrition or hydration. Like I just relied on what was at the aid stations.

And like pretty much got thrown into this race the night before and ended up winning it the next day. And I was like, holy shit. Like I can't like, it was just these results that I was getting. I was like, I can't believe that I'm like doing this good. Like it was just like, yeah, I was just like, I guess I'm like actually kind of good at this thing, you know? And yeah.

And it was just like building those small little wins, those results were validation and enough to like give me confidence like, hey, maybe I should just go all in and really try to like see how good I can be. Like try to find that what my potential is and just like push myself as hard as I can lean into ultra running and just go for it. Yeah. What I think makes ultra running very unique is that it's this very distinctive balance between like the physical and the mental strength that's required. Because there's no other sport like it where you get put in some really painful positions. Yeah. Your stomach turns, your leg hurts, legs hurt, feet hurt. Feet hurt. There's blisters. You're chafing. You're tired. So everything, like, you feel everything.

And your body is shut down and the mind has to take over. I don't know if you have an answer for this, but do you think early on when you first started doing these ultras that the mental component was stronger than the physical? What was it that was allowing you to excel in these races early on? Yeah, I think one of my greatest strengths is just having a strong mind and just being determined and having to never give up mentality. and just like pushing forward no matter what. And I think maybe part of that comes from just overcoming, just overcoming addiction, man. Like that was like the hardest thing I ever had to do.

And no matter how hard a race gets, I know like nothing's ever going to be as hard as like what I've already done. You know, so. And it's just pain. It's like pain is a weird thing. Like it's kind of like not even. real, you know? And if I can have control of my mind to just be able to deal with and overcome the pain, then I can, I can do well. Yeah. And I think like one of my greatest strengths is just like

having a strong mind and being able to suffer and deal with pain. Like I'm not, I don't have the highest V-O-2 max. I'm not the most talented runner. I'm not the fastest. But I think I have a really, really strong mind and I'm never going to give up and I'm always just going to keep pushing forward. Are you able to in the moment when you're really sucking and suffering? Are you able to detach from that pain and tell yourself this is just temporary? I'm supposed to be feeling this. Yeah. Yeah, I tell myself all the time. It's almost like I almost have to like chant it in my head. Like it's almost like a mantra like just keep moving. Just keep moving. Like pain isn't real. like you'll get through this like I mean it's almost like every step at certain points you have to

you have to do that to just keep moving just keep moving yeah one of my favorite things chat right ever told me was your tongue is your rudder yeah as soon as as you start even if it's in your head telling yourself this hurts this is uncomfortable you start believing that you start salking in that you turn yourself into like this very victim. Negativity is contagious. Yeah. Yeah.

It takes over your body and then you want to share it with other people. Yeah. So there is like a true power of, even if it's false positivity internally. Yeah. You just don't, don't accept the pain. Don't accept the suffering. Ignore it. Keep pushing through it because like your tongue internally and externally is a rudder for

your life. It will guide you to like wherever it is. I'm sure you've been in races where you come across someone, like how you you doing, man. And they use it as an opportunity to like, they dump on you. Download everything. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, do I get away from this guy? Yeah, it's toxic. It is. And it spreads really quick and it's really powerful in both directions. Yeah. No, and I, I, that's, I mean, I've had little taste of that happened to me in races where I get down on myself and I experience low points. And, yeah, almost let that creep in where if you

can just stay positive and just almost like think yourself into a positive mindset, then you'll like maybe just like be in a lesser level of suffering, you know, and just be able to, it's all mindset, dude. It's so, ultra running is so, so, so mental. I think it's a power in it. Yeah. I would encourage a lot of people to go run an ultra. because the ultras I've done, I mean, there's no other way to make me myself feel weak mentally and physically. Yeah, you learn so much about yourself.

You learn so much about yourself. And you come out of it prepared for other seasons and chapters of life because of the weaknesses you've identified. Like, you can go into it feeling really tough, beating your chest, and it will humble you. Nothing more humbling than going up a steep-ass mountain. Yeah. Humble you very quickly.

Into Eres, yeah, totally. So one of the things I heard you say, this was on Sally's podcast, was you have this mindset mentality saying of just keep moving. How have you applied that in all areas your life? Just keep moving. And like when has it become really applicable to use it? Yeah, I don't even know if that's like a saying or a mantra that I have like really came up with. I think maybe Sally just came up with that for me.

But it's, I, like, it's true. As long as I can just keep moving, it's just about forward progress. Like always, always learning, always trying to improve. And yeah, in running, that's like what I focus on the majority in my life. But every, it's applicable to so many other areas in my life where like, as long as I can keep improving, keep learning, keep trying to do better than that, like, that's the goal. it's like that's how you grow. It's just like just keep trying to do better.

It's like so simple. It's what Go One More is. Yeah, exactly. Like obstacles are going to come up. Resistance is going to present itself. And you just keep driving through that. And like that's what I've learned in these altars that I've done. Because there's so many highs and lows.

You know, you go from like one mile being the highest of high. And then two miles later, it's a lot. low, so low. But you can expect another high after that and another low. Yeah. So you're just like ebbs and flows around this whole thing. But the only thing you can do is just keep moving through all of it. Well, or you can give up, which is not an option for me. I'm never going to quit. So moving forward is the only option. Yeah. In any race, have you ever had the temptation to quit? Yeah. I mean, I, during Moab, I didn't know if I was going to be able to even continue walking. Like I, there were those seeds of doubt where I'm, I was thinking, like,

is this even possible? Is my body just going to shut down? Am I going to go into full body cramps and literally not be able to stand up? That was something that was in the back of my mind. But yeah, I've experienced it in other races where I'm like, this is so, so hard. Like, I don't know if I can do this. But yeah, just keep moving. And I like to say, like there's always a solution to whatever problem you're having in a race. Like maybe you just need more electrolytes or maybe you're a little bit dehydrated or maybe you just need more fuel or maybe you need a change of mindset or a little bit of inspiration from somebody. There's always a solution to whatever you're going through in a race and you're always going to feel different

a little bit later. Like if it's 30 minutes, 45 minutes an hour or two hours later, you're always going to feel different. And just because you're in a really deep hole at any certain point in time doesn't mean you're going to stay there. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to talk about Moab, your preparation in the race. But I think setting that up, there's a story that you've shared in a bunch of different places

that I think is really interesting and valuable to show just like how one moment can unlock like this new perspective. And I can't remember which race it was, but you were crewing or supporting or watching. And you were at like Mile Marker 100. And all these elite ultra runners came up. And you thought, you know, you just expected that them being these elites,

they were going to look brand new, fresh, blazing through the checkpoints. And they come up into the checkpoint and they're beat down, they're tired, they're dragging. And from my understanding, you had this realization of, oh, these are just people like me who are getting their ass kicked on a course like me. I can do this. Yeah.

Like, what was that unlocked like and how powerful was it for your next couple objectives? Yeah. So that's actually what inspired me to sign up for and run my first 100-mile race. So I think it was 2023. I was volunteering at Kocodona, which, which is a race that I'm running here in a couple weeks' time. So, yeah, it's a 250-mile race in Arizona. I was at the 100-mile mark,

and I was working at the aid station volunteering just in the middle of the night, and I saw the leaders come through. And in my head, I had built these people up to, like, I thought they were, like, superhuman, like superhero-type people, which, I mean, they very much are. But after seeing them come through,

like, they were so beat up and tired and just, like, barely. hanging on where I was like, oh, they're like, it just humanized them. Like, these are normal people that have trained and put so much work and time into this big race. And now they're here. And they're just like grinding it out. And yeah, just like being able to see these people in a relatable way was like a way for me to think like, oh, maybe I can do this. And I'm just going to sign up for a hundred mile race and I'm going to see if I can do it, you know, just seeing them inspired me to at least give it a go and just try. Yeah. I can imagine how powerful that would be.

You know, growing up, you're naive to like this professional status. It just always, for me, felt out of reach. Yeah. Whether that was in business or athletics or like anything. And you feel it's a different world that you can't even touch. And when you finally realize that we're all people, we all have the ability to get there, talent will help, but work will be much greater. Having that unlock is massive.

Because you realize it's no longer out of reach. It's actually possible. It's possible. And I've told this story before, but people have come to BPNHQ. before and just to meet and we'll be we were kind of talking about this on on the car right here and we'll be looking at the HQ and they're like man i can't believe like you built this i wish i wish like i could have built this or i can build this and i look at my saying you can yeah there's

nothing different between you and me right i just started 13 years ago and and slowly started building and it's taken me 13 years to get here. But there's nothing that I have that you don't have. And I truly believe all these professional athletes and business owners, there's nothing they have that I don't have. I just haven't put in the work focused on that objective like they have. And that realization puts you in this position of, what do I want to go achieve?

Because whatever I decide that I'm going to achieve, I'm now going to go achieve it. So how massive was that unlock for you to witness that experience in the way it shifted kind of your perspective? Yeah, I think it was just knowing not to like try to compare myself to these other people and like who they were. And more so just understand that they had this long path of like work that they put in over years to kind of get to that point that they that they were at.

And yeah, in the race, it was like, I mean, just knowing that these people are just normal people that have put in the work day after day, year after year to be able to do this, like, crazy thing that seems impossible, which is like run 250 miles straight through the desert. It's like insane. I mean, you're only a few years into your ultra running journey. Yeah. you've been a professional runner for how long now?

Little over a year. So like a year in three or four months. Yeah. So not very long. So like realizing that based off what you've said of like not comparing, you know, your journey to someone else's journey, but also realizing that you have so much time to keep building and refining. Totally. And I feel like I've been playing ketchup a lot. Like running is, and I forget who said this, like running is, maybe it was David Roach,

that running is cumulative. Like it takes years and years and years to build like a solid base and a solid foundation. And a lot of these guys I'm going up against, like they've been doing this for 10, 50 decades sometimes. And I feel like I've been playing a little bit of ketchup. So just like, I mean, I'm like so focused on it. just like doing huge volume and big weeks. And I almost do feel like I'm playing ketchup almost to a detriment. But yeah, it's, yeah, just trying not to, just trying to focus on

myself and not compare myself to others. Like, even recently, like training for Kocodona, I unfollowed everyone that I follow on Strava just because I don't, I don't want to be distracted or get caught up in what maybe someone else is doing, like especially someone that I'm going to be competing against. I just want to like stay focused on doing everything that I can to, just, just focus on myself and just put me in the best place that I can to do as well as I can at Cocodona. Yeah. And it's not even just the cumulative amount of like miles or time of feet, but it's also the experience in racing that you're like still getting. I'm still learning. Yeah. I mean, I learned so many things at Moab that I just like, and like simple rookie

mistakes, like taking care of my feet and like chafing and get drinking. We were talking about it earlier. Like I got blisters in my mouth from just not rinsing my mouth out with normal, like just clean, plain water, like just drinking constant electrolytes and carbics. Like it totally destroyed the inside of my mouth. So it's like small little rookie mistakes that I'm like just trying to learn from as I go and improve, like, on the fly sometimes even, yeah. So where do you want to take it? Where do you want to take ultra running for yourself? Yeah, I think about this often.

I think I just want to continue finding just cool challenges and races that intrigue me. And I just want to experience, like, a ton of different landscapes and just, different styles of races. I really love mountain races. I really love hot desert race. I just want to kind of experience everything, everything that I can. And that's kind of just like my big goal with ultra running and like good results along the way. Like that's cool. That's always validating. That's fun. That's awesome. But I think for me it's just just continuing to do things that are challenging and intrigue me and getting to run in like amazing beautiful places. Like that's that's what I'm going after. For a coconut two 50 in a few weeks, what's the goal there? Is that like

an A race for you? Yeah. Yeah. That's like a that's an A bucket list race for me for sure. I think I don't know. I don't really like to have a lot of expectations when I go into a race because if you make expectations for yourself and you're just setting yourself up to be disappointed if you don't, if you don't perform as well as you can. But I think my biggest goal for Kogadona is just to put up, just race the race as best as I can. Try not to make any mistakes, which is tough. So there's going to be mistakes made along the way. But, yeah, just doing everything I can to run my best race. That's all I can do.

There's so much difference between the ultra and the marathon. Yeah. where like the marathon, you can pretty much know based off of your prep. You're training what you're going to do. You're training, like your time within a matter of seconds. And there's things that can go wrong, but you're really not on your feet long enough for much to go wrong. Yeah. It's pretty predictable.

Yeah. The ultraspace, like there's so much. So many more factors that go into it. So many more variables. Yeah. And the degree for variation is huge. Yeah. So I completely respect and understand, like, you know, what do you want to do at coconut into 50s?

Well, like, we'll see within the first 100 miles how that race is going. Well, even what's crazy is what the, what's happening at mile 100 is not even going to determine the results of the race. Like, I mean, we saw a couple years ago, Michael McKnight, if you know who he is. I think the first day, he was in like 30th place and was able to like come back from. like he had a really rough first day and he was able to come back and pass everyone and ended up winning the race from like 30th on the first day. So it's like going back to there's so many variables. There's so many things that can go wrong. And yeah, it's like it's so unpredictable. The crazy part about something like that is if you were 30 spots behind,

mentally that can like really just zap you. Yeah. Like realizing that you have to jump 30 spots ahead to win. And that alone will discourage people enough to put in the physical and mental effort to get to be first place. Yeah. You got to dig. Totally. To jump the spots.

And I've been there before, you know. I've been 15 miles behind with only 40 miles left in a race. And yeah, it's just like we see. see that it's possible, like being in a situation where you're so far behind, it almost seems like it shouldn't be possible. And time after time, we see these underdogs come from behind victories. Like, that's, like, motivation for me. And maybe in my subconscious, I was, like, thinking about that result to where I didn't give up. I was, like, still had that maybe a little bit of belief that, hey, maybe I can come back from this. And yeah, I haven't even really,

I never even really thought of that. Like maybe that was like part of my result at Moab is just knowing that there's been big come from behind victories in these 200 mile races. It's like, it's not over until it's over, you know. I mean, there's a lot of parallels in your life with that, though. For sure, yeah. You can dig your life pretty deep in the opposite direction. But there's never a point of no return. Right. You can always overcome. You can always overcome.

I mean, I mean, that's just like, your story in itself is super inspirational and should be for a lot of people who might be in a spot of their life right now. It's like, I can't, I've gone too far. Yeah. I can't dig out of this. I've made these mistakes. I failed. I lost as much money. Like, I've been in jail.

I've been addicted. I'm in a bad relationship, whatever I might be, yeah. You can always turn it around. And it just takes a decision. One decision. And you just stick to it. Yeah. Talking about Moab briefly, I want to just talk about that prep for a little bit.

You dedicated an entire year. Yeah. And the result of winning Moab was from that preparation for an entire year. For my understanding, you did 100 mile weeks for pretty much a year. Yeah. you had races strategically placed throughout that year that were training races to support an effort at Moab. And then you were spending a lot of time on the stepper to gain vert because in SoCal you

don't have access to. We have a little bit, but that was like a way to like really supplement the vert. Yeah. Were there any other things you were doing in your training to that got you to that result? Yeah. Like even. So one thing that I was kind of. focused on was, like, knowing that I had to eat, like, just continuously be eating and running

with a full stomach. So, uh, I would, I would come home on my lunch break. So like, I would usually run in the morning before work, go to work, get off, or get, go on my lunch break, come home. And I would eat my lunch really quick and then just immediately go for a run. So, uh, yeah, like eat a big, big lunch of a ground beef and avocado and then go straight into a seven-mile run. It sounds horrible. Yeah, yeah, it was terrible. But stomach training is like, that's like one factor that I knew. I knew I was going to need to like figure this out and deal with it.

And like, I think it helped with just becoming comfortable with this uncomfortable situation that's like running with a full stomach. It's like it sucks. But that and then just, yeah, like, I mean, using all of the races leading up to, like I learned and I was playing around with different types of nutrition and dialing in like my, my sodium intake. And like there were all these like things that I kind of focused on and worked on for these races in the lead up to Moab. And then like TDS, the race that I ran, the race that I ran before. for Moab, it was like a month and a half before Moab. It was a midnight start race and ran almost 24 hours. So it was like a two night race, kind of like two half nights. But that was

kind of my way of simulating like a multi-night event. So yeah, I feel like I structured my year really well. And like, yeah, I just dedicated my year to just getting as much volume, training as hard as I can and like kind of trying and testing out. I mean, gear, shoes, like all these things were things that I just tried to work on throughout the year and all leading up to mob. That TDS race at UTMB, I've heard you talk about it a few times. I find that super interesting. Yeah, an attractive race. It's tough. It seems brutal. It's tough. Yeah. Is it because the mountains you're climbing and it being overnight? Yeah. So it's the midnight start, and it's just like, dude, it's just so much vert.

I think the amount of vertical gain in TDS, which is only 93 miles, is like the same as Moab in 240 miles. So around 30,000 feet of vertical gain in 92 miles is like such a tough. You're like those climbs were so long and so steep. It was, it was really gnarly. But super amazing, beautiful, like really fun race. It's just like, ah, it was evil in the best way possible. is it in the Alps? Yeah, it's in the Alps.

So it starts in, I'm probably going to butcher the pronunciation of this town, but Kormier, Italy, which is on the other side of Mount Blanc from Shomene. So you run from one side of the mountain to the other, where UTMB is this big loop around the mountain. So it's, yeah, it's just really tough. And a lot of people say that TDS is tougher than the UTMB main race. I've never ran UT&B, so I can't really compare the two. But it was very, very challenging.

Yeah. That's what I heard you say. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, I would love to go witness that. Yeah. And go watch it. And every year I see like UTMB going on and just the crowd there. Have you ever been out there?

No. Oh, dude, it's so fun. It looks so electric. Yeah, it's amazing. The energy looks insane. Yeah. It's on the list. Yeah.

You definitely need to go like as soon as possible. Let's go this year. Dude. Yeah. What year? What month is? it? It's in August. Yeah. I think it's the end of August. Talk to the wife. Okay. Oh, yeah. Clearance. Steph's got to sign off on that one. Yeah. Well, dude, I appreciate this. I'm really honored to have you on

this team. Thank you so much. I'm really honored to have you on this team. And super excited to see what you do in this space. Thank you. Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. And I like, honestly, I feel super, super grateful and super honored to be on this team like just meeting everyone this week i'm like so inspired by all the guys and all the girls and just like finally meeting you for the first time i'm like just very very stoked yeah i appreciate that man yeah thanks for sharing your story and i'm excited to see what you throw down at coca donna yeah thank you i'm looking forward to it all right man thanks yeah sick