The Nick Bare Podcast - Archive - Cameron Hanes | Work Hard, ENDURE, and Keep Hammering

Episode Date: May 23, 2022

Cameron Hanes discovered his true passion for bowhunting when he was twenty. Inspired by the physical challenges of stalking elk in the Oregon wilderness—traversing mountainous terrain, braving erratic weather, and evading his quarry’s even more dangerous predators—he began an ever-evolving journey of self-improvement. To become the best bowhunter of wild elk, to the caliber he believed he could be, Cam realized he would need more than archery skills. He would need the stamina and strength that could only come from an athletic training regimen of long-distance running and heavy-weight lifting. And every day for more than thirty years, Cam has put in the work, building miles and muscles, pushing through pain with a single-minded focus on the only goal worth having—besting himself time and again. If Cam can do it, we all can. Everyone has what it takes to endure adversity so we can rise above average, be the best we can be, and enjoy living life to the fullest. You can order Cam’s book, ENDURE, on Amazon now. More Resources: BPN website: www.bpnsupps.com Nick’s website: www.nickbare.com Nick’s Instagram: www.instagram.com/nickbarefitness Nick’s Youtube: www.youtube.com/user/barelifenutrition Follow Us On Social Media! Instagram: @thebareperformancepodcast Facebook: The Bare Performance Podcast Twitter: @BarePerformPod

In this episode of the Bear Performance Podcast. So you've got to be out there. You know what I mean? Just like in hunting, you're never going to kill anything from your couch, wondering, you know, I wonder if it's hunting good. I wonder if the weather's good. I wonder what the animals are doing. Get out there and anything can happen.

But you have to be out there, take that first step and just be in the woods or, and even with running, and I know you get this a lot too, but people don't know where to start. Start by getting out that freaking of that house, closing that door and just getting outside and just starting. Just do something and then you build on that. But it doesn't have to be anything crazy. It doesn't have to be a marathon or doesn't have to be an ultramarathon. It has to be walking around the block. That's where it starts.

That's where everybody starts. You walk around the block or maybe you run a mile or maybe you walk a mile. And just that consistent effort will lead you to go one more. And then who knows where you end up. Welcome back to another powerful episode of the podcast. I'm your host, Nick Baer, founder and CEO. CEO of Bear Performance Nutrition. Every week, we bring you insightful stories, knowledge, and inspiration to help you reach

your full potential in life, fitness, and business. If you enjoy the message we're promoting in this podcast, we would greatly appreciate it if you would leave a rating and review on the platform you're listening to. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on future episodes that embody the Go One More Mindset. All right. Welcome back to another episode of the Bear Performance, podcast. Today we have Cameron Haynes. What's going on, brother? Not much. Ready to have a nice

discussion and learn more about Nick Bear. No, it's all about you. I'm impressed. I'm walking to this facility. I'm impressed, dude. I appreciate that. What you've built is incredible. I mean, I've seen it online and I've seen you share some behind the scene stuff, but being here firsthand and then looking across the way and seeing the other building you had to obtained to put more storage for more product and the guy everybody who's smiling everybody's in a good mood um all your employees it's just i can't i mean i'm i can't say how happy i am to see this it's your success is hard earned and i love seeing people like you win i appreciate that it's uh you know we uh we did led to 100 uh this past summer right our whole team really and uh during the

documentary, one of the things my wife said, as I was watching the dock back, yeah, I got choked up and I don't get choked up much, but I got choked up during, you know, watching this doc back. And one of the things Steph said in her interview was, you know, seeing all these people bought into this mission. Right. And when you think about that, the reason I got so emotional during this part of it is when people believe in what you, when you believe in so much. Right. You're so bought into something

when other people believe that much into it too. It's, yeah. You don't think that for granted. No. Because so many times we go through life

and we feel like we're misunderstood or they just don't see the same picture you see or the same vision and it's like they can't understand and so you're doing all this and most many people say

you're wasting your time or it's not a good idea or it's, you know, they'll give all these reasons to quit. But when you have a team that says you can do it, we believe in you after your whole life of hearing the exact opposite.

I understand it's emotional. You know, it's, uh, this journey is so crazy, so filled of ups and downs and you meet new people and you come across new challenges and just when it's a success like your, you know, Leadville, I know was a, I watched that film. And I know I can see what you're talking about exactly because your team was there for you. You were the one achieving the goal, but everybody was just, as dedicated as you were. It's awesome.

No, it's crazy with a journey. Everyone has a journey. Yeah. And it's really easy to compare our journey to someone else's journey. And I think the struggle is we sometimes compare our first step to someone else's 20,000. Exactly. First step or step.

So I love the quote. Like comparison is a thief of joy. Exactly. And one question I'd love to kick off, you know, this conversation with. is because I get this response from people too sometimes, you know, it must be fucking nice. Yeah.

It must be nice to be able to train and hunt all day. When did you start getting those responses? Man, I think most, probably for the most part, well, I started to get to go on great hunts. You know, I mean, as hunters, and I fell in the strap too. When I was a young hunter, I would look at the most famous hunters out there, bow hunters that, and that's all I ever really cared about was the bow hunting gurus essentially.

And that was Chuck Adams. Fred Bear was older, you know, so he's a little generation before me. But Dwight Shue is a guy I looked towards Randy Ulmer. And I would see Chuck Adams and he'd say, well, he went and killed 10 great animals on 10 great bohunts and some were world records. And to me as this kid, I was, as you mentioned, comparing my first steps. I was just starting a bow hunting to his, you know, 20 years down the road. And I had convinced myself that I could do what he was doing. I just didn't have the opportunity.

And he got to go on better hunts. He didn't have a job. I don't know if he had a job or not. But in my head, I was like, he doesn't have a job. This is all he does. And so I was like the must be nice guy, right? Because I was the kid who was jealous of this pioneer in archery. And I didn't see the big picture.

I was focused on not his journey, but just where he was, that compared to where I was at. So I know exactly all this comparisons to the for joy. All this must be nice. I know all of it because I was that guy also. Then when it, for me, when it really turned up is when I started, when Joe Rogan came in the picture, we became friends. And, you know, that's just a guy everybody wants to be friends with. He's just a man's man, just a cool guy, smart. Everybody sees him doing, you know, cage side at UFC. It's comedian. His podcast. Podcast people, you know, are just, they gear their life around almost listening to it.

So then that really took it up another notch. But it's almost you can take it. So these people are letting somebody else's success impact them, which is a negative for them. I see it as it's, you know, it's just part of the deal. It's just what comes with success. And if I'd rather deal with a little bit of that and have success, then be the guy saying, must be nice and looking at people achieving more than me. You think that's why you've kept a full-time job?

Because I mean, up until this point, obviously a lot of things you're doing outside of your full-time job back in Oregon are making you a lot of money and you have multiple streams of revenue. Yeah. You think part of keeping that job is just so you can say to these people, fuck you. Like, I train, I hunt all my off days, on my PTO, if you will. Yeah. Yeah, that's not the reason why it's pretty convenient to have the job to say that.

I, to be honest, I have the job because when I got that job, I have a hard time forgetting how I felt when I got it. When I got it, I hadn't had anything really great going on. And I thought if I could get hired at the local water and power company, people always need water and power. It was just a good job. And it was like a job I could retire from. You know, I could work hard. I knew where I was going every day and it was dependable and my family relied on it. You know, I have people, you know, kids relying on me, a wife.

And so I just remember how it felt. So right now even, even with all the other successes, it's hard to forget that. I mean, I prayed to get that job. So leaving it and now I'm, that was when I was just on the construction crew when I got that, now I'm the superintendent. It's hard to, I don't know, it's hard to forget where I came from. And so I have a hard time. And plus, I love the people.

I love, after 26 years, I know those people. They're, you know, I actually care and love them. It's just hard to quit. But also it's good for the must be nicer's. I can say I still work too. Yeah, I mean, because I get those questions or I get those responses. Like, it must be nice to be able to train all day. And, you know, work here at BPN.

I own BPN. I'm BPN. And it's, no, I'm training. the same times you're training, 5 a.m. or 10 p.m. Right. You know, it's a round work. Yeah. And it's like the iceberg analogy is people see the tip.

Yes. They don't see what's underneath it. Yeah. Well, I mean, you have a lot to hate. I mean, jacked, got a great life, got an awesome company. Everything's going good. You look good. You got a beautiful wife.

It's like, it'd be easy to hate on that. Yeah. if you were that person. So that just comes with it. I mean, when you build something special, you've put in the work, you know what it takes. Nobody else is going to get that.

Some people will. Some people who have a good perspective, they'll be like, no, that's, I'm going to, I want to emulate that guy. That guy's, you know,

he's paving the way. And that's how I look at it too. It's like, let's pave the way. That was the whole point of the book. For people who maybe, maybe aren't as focused as they could be to achieve the most of their ability, let's show them.

Let's pave the way and say, you know what? I get it. I was there, but look what can happen with dedication and passion. And, you know, you're showing that every day. So it's just this, you know, life isn't as black and white as we think sometimes. There's a lot of layers. There's a lot of layers. Yeah.

I, you know, speaking about working your full-time job and kind of would bring some passion behind it being dependable. You said, I interviewed a guy last week, his name was Ken Rydout. He said one of the main characteristics that he looks for in other people or he wants to build within himself as being dependable. And the older I get, the more dependable I want to be for other people, for my family, for, I want to be able to depend on myself. And I think that's one of those things that a lot of people could focus more on is a lot of people around there for themselves. Right. You're out there for yourself. You're going to get so far.

so far by yourself. You can go a whole lot further together. Yeah, it's true. That dependability piece, that kind of gets glossed over these days. But that's a big, been a big part of my success. Just I'm not, what I would say is you're more talented than me. I will outwork you. That's all there's to it because I don't out-talent anybody. So even in my regular job, I've never, I have never called on sick in 26 years. If I'm supposed to be there, I will, be there. It doesn't matter. I will get there. You can count on me. I'll be dependable. And that leads to opportunities because when you're working for somebody, they want the guy they can count on. Not the guy who kicks ass every once in a while, but then doesn't show up half the time. It's the guy that maybe

he doesn't do, he's not just the best, best of the best, but he's always here. He's always here. And I know I can count them. That's me. So I never been blessed with being the best, the smartest, the whatever, but I'm there. And you can count me being here and I'm going to work hard for you. So that goes a long way, just being dependable and showing up. Yeah. I agree. I've learned a lot through the hiring process of building a team, building a culture.

And sometimes the expert in a certain space or field isn't the best person for a team or for a job. Right. But you bring a bunch of people that you can depend on. Yes. And I think that's kind of with the military. Yeah. Great. It's right.

Very dependable people. Right. You look to your left, your right, behind you in front of you. And those people will fight with and for you. Right. And I'm sure you've kind of seen that on some big hunts with teams too. Yeah. The best partner that I ever had was my buddy Roy.

And I talk about him extensively in the book, in the book, Endure. And I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him because he got me started with bow hunting. But the thing that made him stand out is regardless of the hunt, regardless of how it was going or the challenge, he was always optimistic, always positive, is always going to work out. And that is really hard to find somebody who's, so we're talking about dependability,

but then also not a, I mean, also they're an asset with attitude. Because attitude affects everything. How are you going into it? How are you looking at the challenge? affects that decision than many other decisions that lead up to it and away from it. So having somebody who I can count on, that was Roy, and who is always confident we were going to figure out a way to get it done.

And he was the best. He's the best. I'll never have a honey partner as good as him. But yeah, it's a simple thing in life. Show up, have a good attitude. You can have success. Did you learn through Roy what, true professional hunting looked like and felt like.

Or, you know, because you talk about in the book, there's this big difference between your recreational hunter and your professional hunter. Right. And when I think, you know, I grew up in Pennsylvania. And I think back to some of the kids I grew up around hunting. Right. It was kind of like you said, you grab a case of beer, you go on to camp. They get kind of shit-faced the night before.

And then they're sitting in a blind during that day. And growing up, that's, that was my interpretation of what hunting was. Right. But for you, it's, there's like, so I love this book by Seth Godin. It's called Purple Cowell. Okay. And he talks about, there's this word remarkable. And the word remarkable is so powerful.

You can only use it for certain things. And it's so powerful and amazing that the opposite of great is remarkable. So it's saying like there's such this massive divide between things or people that are great and things are people that are remarkable. And to be like this remarkable hunter, it's this utmost respect. It's this process. Where did you learn like this difference between the recreational hunter and this true remarkable professional? Well, I kind of forced myself down that path because I started off like everybody else. but then I had success hunting.

And I wasn't really getting positive affirmation or feedback or anything for from anybody for anything else in my life. And then I did with bow hunting. All of a sudden, people started to pay attention to go, oh, good job, great job. And, you know, as a young man, we want that positive feedback from something. We want people to notice or pay attention. We're trying to fit in or these different things with, you know, going through life. but I realized, okay, so this felt good to be successful.

I feel like I'm halfway decent at something finally. This is after high school and high school sports is over. So you need something. You can be kind of directionless. So Bowhunting gave me some positive affirmations. And I started to realize, man, I can be better at this, the better shape I'm in. The more serious I take it. if of course there's guys I grew up around who were like as you described and as I described in the book

who were more like just getting away getting a vacation you know a break from the everyday life but I on the other hand was taking it so serious is like all I really cared about I started training harder and harder and harder and being more disciplined and then after all after people were paying attention then I was writing articles I was like man I'm there's a responsibility with how I'm hunting and how I'm sharing this because not everybody hunts. So if I want people to understand how I perceive hunting and what it means to me, I got to do a better job explaining the story. And so it's been an evolution. Roy and I started. You said did Roy expose the professional side of hunting to me? Not really because we started at the same spot. We were both just kids in a small

town. He did at the at the later stages of his life turn into a professional hunter because he was an outfitter and guide up in Alaska. And then that is professional hunting to find. You're helping people from like the lower 48 go up there and achieve a lifelong dream hunting in the mountains. And Roy had to be a pro. And then at that time, yeah, I still, I still learned from him. We came up together. He had a specialty up there and I'd go up there and learn from them and watch him. And again, it was always just mostly how he took on challenge and the attitude associated but uh yeah it's it it's a long grind this journey you everybody starts with like taking it as a recreation and then you turn it into whatever you i mean what it has to match your goals

and then it might be something completely different from where you started but it's it defines you like bolling does me now when you started hunting were you are you going out and just sitting in a blind waiting for something to come across or was it always this active yeah active hunt so western hunting is different than back in PA where you are. There's so many hunters in PA. I think there's a million licensed hunters. It's one of the most populated hunting states. So people are very passionate about hunting, but the hunting is much different. Back there because so many people, there's not room to walk, you know, and your properties are smaller. Out west, there's so much public land and so many mountains and wilderness areas.

It's just, it's always been an active pursuit in the west. That's like a different, different style of hunting from, you know, Oregon to Wyoming to Colorado, all the Western States, Montana, compared to back east. It's like night and day different, different tactics.

The hunt, you're still pursuing an animal, but different styles. So it's, it's physical out west. One of the things he said in the book, and we talked about this last night, um,

you know, in regards to feedback, right, like, while we were running last night, we kind of talked about this. And, growing up, I didn't really understand the importance of feedback.

And when you're younger, maybe like naive or more immature, sometimes feedback is viewed as criticism. Right. And when you apply criticism to someone with some ego, it's just like a disaster. Yeah. Right. Like it never helps anyone. Right.

But like feedback, when you can give feedback and you can receive feedback in an appropriate way and it develops you. I mean, it's powerful. And sometimes it comes from people, pulling you side and giving you some feedback and taking feedback. When I was thinking about it more after I run last night, there's other things that provide feedback and some of those things are like terrain. Like terrain will provide feedback for you.

I'm not fit enough. Or this animal provide feedback. Like you are not strong enough. You cannot keep up with me. Right. And one of the things you say in the book is what you love about the back country is that it's an equalizer. Yeah. And I found that really powerful because as technology increases and develops, like we are, we're minimizing and eliminating things that equalize us.

Right. If you have more money, you can buy more things that advance you. You can wear different clothes and makes you stand out. Right. But in the mountains, like you said, that equalizes man to. your most raw form of are you fit, are you strong? Are you weak,

mentally, physically? Right. When did you identify what the back country could do to that kind of person? I saw a lot of people who were better than me in all regards, like quit in the mountains. And I, right away,

I was like, wow, this is, I mean, it's like, almost before the hunt started, just because the setting is so remote and it's so different from our normal life. So that expanse and the mounds and being on your own, it's a heavy weight to bear for some people because we're not used to it. And I saw people who were stronger,

more successful, better athletes than me, throwing the towel very quickly. And I started to realize that, well, I don't want to throw in the towel and I still feel fine. And I have confidence back here. And it seemed like there was a gap. And I'm like, I'm on the right side of this gap. Can I make this gap bigger? Can I eliminate all the competition? And that's where I started the ultramarathons. Because I figured it's, you know, the country doesn't change in size, but it does. And literally it won't change in size. Like the Eagle Cap Wilderness where 100 was 30 miles wide by 60 miles long. So that's going to be the dimensions of it forever. But if I can run 100 miles on a day like you do in an ultramarathon, that has essentially

shrunk. Now I can get anywhere within that area within a day, within hours, and take full advantage of the country where the animals might be and also create that gap between me and anybody else hunting back there because public lands, it's, you know, first man or all men, I guess only the strongest survive. And it's like whoever can maximize the opportunities, those are the guys. you haul an elk meet home. And so I realized that, man, I don't have an advantage in everyday life, but I have an advantage

up here if I play this right, or in the mountains back in the back country. And that was like the first time in my life where I thought, okay, now I call the shots. And that's a powerful feeling. I've just been trying to ride that train ever since. And I'm better now and more, well, obviously, get tougher mentally, the older you get. get young men I don't think really have been through enough to be super mentally tough generally. But I'm better now physically and mentally than I was in my 20s. And so that's what the journey can do with living right, being dedicated towards something.

You know, it used to be 54 was old. That was like an old man. Now, I mean, Joe and I are both 54 and we both feel great. So it's like, this journey is a long one. how are you going to how are you going to experience it as a key you think that finding uh finding ways to suffer kind of builds this this equalizer because you know if not everyone can go back in the back country and and test themselves and when i think back to to ultrass these ultra marathons these big effort races you know you show up race day and everyone toes the line and

and you see all this different gear. You have the gear heads who show up, all speck out. They're probably wearing $5,000 worth of gear. And you see the other guy that shows up in an old pair of shoes and maybe an old Solomon pack. Yeah, that's it.

And you show up to that race and no one, like, there's no really equal. Like your wealth, your money, or your status can get you to look a certain way when you show up, but when you're 80 miles into 100 mile race, everyone looks like dog shit. Yeah. Right? And like your gear doesn't matter. You don't care what you're wearing anymore. No.

It equalizes you. So I think of that in terms of suffering, it's sometimes looking for these moments of suffering or finding places to suffer. Yeah. Can equalize you and you break you down to your rawest form and foundation. And a lot of people never reach that because you can buy things that kind of, pretty you up or paint this picture of what you want to be. You think that's part of chasing these ultras is, and I know a lot of it is to be the best hunter ever, to be a better hunter.

But it's also a way to suffer. It is. And I mean, Goggins has made it that, that quote famous is on the other side of suffering is greatness. But you mentioned society today. Today we're geared towards being comfortable. You're too hot, turn on the AC.

You're too cold, turn on the heater. It's all this thing. It's you never, people, even people struggling are truly never suffering. Like in some countries in America, our suffering is different. So if you're never suffering, you're never, you know, challenging yourself, you're not going to taste that greatness. So, yeah, I do think suffering is a key component to unlocking all the doors of your potential. And as you know, Courtney, she, you've had Courtney DeWalter on here. She has a great, I don't know, saying to so many is like she wants to go into the pain cave, right, and explore the pain cave.

Most people knock on the door of the pain cave and like, okay, I'm not interested in anything in there. I want to leave and then they do whatever they take to mitigate the pain. But when you accept the pain and another quote I like is, you know, you make pain your friend and you're never alone. So when you accept the pains, like this is part of this journey and on the other side of this is going to be a reward. It's a different perspective. You know, life is perspective. It's how you're looking at these challenges.

I did have one thought. You mentioned all the gearheads at the ultras and the guys who show up. The guys who make me nervous, my brother, he runs a lot of ultras too, but he'll show up with like a Western shirt with the sleeves cut off and a big beard and kind of beat up shoes because he's not. buying shoes all the time. Those are guys that make me nervous. Because when they can just show up to run 100 miles and they look like that,

you know, you're in for it. I think my last race I crossed a guy and we're like 50 miles deep because we're in sandals. I was like, what the shit, man. Oh, there's so many tough people. But what I, and we talked about this last night, I think women are, I think they have an advantage over men. The women on these races at these ultra are so, tough with endurance. They're just so good with pain. It doesn't seem fair. I think we need to

somehow equalize. What are they doing now? Everybody, oh yeah, I feel marginalized as a man. We need to start having babies. I think so, yeah, because then we'd be tougher. I mean, it's got a hell. But yeah, these women, it's like, oh, so tough. I'm so amazed by just how much. I'm so amazed by just how much they can push through in these races. Well, it's interesting because everyone loves the concept of pain or suffering. One of the things that we say here at BPN is everyone loves the concept of growth and what growth sounds like and looks like. Yeah.

But then when you finally get into the growing pains, you dip your toe in it. People are like, I don't want a part of this. Three months ago, you were talking about all you want to do is grow. Now here's the opportunity to grow. And it's the same thing like the pain cave or like these dark places that sometimes it gets romanticized. Or people, they talk about the pain cave, but they've never been in it. And they dip their toe. Yeah.

And it's like, oh, this ain't for me. Right. And it's like we talked about last night. Everyone likes the concept of a 100 mile race. Yeah. Until you get the mile 80. Yeah. And then no one wants in anymore.

No, no. And, you know, I learned, I've learned a lot from Courtney. in her journey too because so she's best in the world you know the best woman ultra runner in the world but her first hundred miler she quit i think i i can't remember if she talked about that with you or not but she was at mile 60 she didn't realize pain this pain thing was this is all part of the deal she thought this pain was so bad she couldn't go any further and you know wasn't built for it but once she realized, oh, this is what it's about. This is the whole thing.

She's come back and I think that was a Rocky Raccoon maybe even. When she threw in the towel, I think in 2012, if I remember right, but she's come back and won that race. But it was just that change in she hasn't really changed as a person. She changed in how she perceived pain. And it's just like when you look forward to it, as you say, it's hard. It's easy to say. really hard to embrace pain in the moment,

but she's found a way to do it. So I try to learn from people like that. You ever go out on some big hunts with people who don't have realistic expectations of what the back country will do to you, and that hunt looks like? Oh, yeah, all the time. I mean, you mentioned it,

things that sound good in concept. Well, we have photos in the back country, and the back country is so beautiful. It's a lot like Leadville when you ran there. I mean, you saw nothing beautiful. than the more beautiful than the Colorado Mountains. So the hunt, that's the kind of images that are, you capture on a hunt,

either if you're successful, you've got your animal, you got camp, you're cooking backstraps if you kill a buck or a bull or something. You got the picturesque setting. You have all these things that look like so amazing and people look at those pictures or the video and they say,

I want to experience that. That's what I've always wanted to do. I've always dreamed of that. fast forward to they're walking on the trail the dust is coming up and their throat is dry and it feels you know like it's 100 degrees it might be 100 degrees and you can't haven't seen an animal and you know a week and you're like this is terrible it's like well all those pictures are from this experience just like this but their snapshot in time you still have to go through all these all the growing pains as you say but all the whole process of a hunt to get those

snapshots and people don't like that part. They just want the snapshot, the success. They're wondering why isn't the cool music playing in the background and where's the highlight shot? They want to post a real. And it's like, wait, where's my real footage? That might be like a new, a new like influencer trend where you get helicoptered into the back country, you get a few shots, a few photos and then you're out.

I know. Yeah. Influencers in the wild. Isn't that a page? Dude, you could make some money off that. Yeah, fly in a dead elk or something. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

But anything worthwhile, I mean, there's a reason why it's hard to obtain. You can have to not always suffer, but you can have to work your ass off. And that's just the way it goes. One of the stats that really blew my mind in the book was the percentage of people who are successful in a hunt. 10% of the time you're successful in a hunt. Yeah. And I guess just put that into perspective. Like if you hunt once a year, you might be getting an elk one time every 10 years.

Yeah. That's a shit performance. I know. It's hard to build on that. You know, it's like, yeah, I mean, people get pretty frustrated and throw in the towel. So a lot of bow hunters, because of that low success rate, they start bow hunting. And then they like, okay, this is impossible. then they go back to rifle hunting.

So it's like bow hunting's always been that kind of high barrier of entry as far as if you're measuring success with dead animals. Have you ever had any interest in rifle? Yeah, I started rifle hunting. Yeah. So first three or four years, I was a rifle hunter. That's all I knew. I just deer hunted.

It's all I could afford. And then my boys, my sons of both, they started rifle hunting too because bow hunting too because bow hunting is so hard. I wanted them to have some sort of success, something to build on a positive. experience. Fow hunting can be very frustrating. We talked about the low success rate. So they've both started with the rifle.

So I've, yeah, I've been around rifle hunting a lot. I just don't do it. In terms of a hunt, because, you know, say someone's listening

and their interpretation or understanding of a hunt is just like, we're just going out to kill an animal. And going back to the whole recreational hunter versus professional hunter, and having so much respect for the process and the animal. And you tell some stories in the book where you shot this,

this elk in the back country, and you missed the lung, and you wounded it, and it ran off. And then the next morning you guys went back and found it and you ended up killing it. But you laid in bed that night. And you guys, you know,

you all cried because you're worried about this animal not having this ethical kill. Right. I'd love to hear like what a perfect day, what perfect hunt looks like, what it feels like, what it smells like, like taking people through that experience, that emotional experience of why you keep doing it and what makes your sport different than the guy taking a six pack and going sitting in a blind. Yeah. For me, the perfect day, and I'll, I guess I'll set the setting of this hunt. I like wild country. I like big country. I like having this romanticized thought that there's nobody else been back here for years, right? So where I got that in the lower 48 was in the thoroughfare of Wyoming, big mountain range. It's the largest roadless area in the lower 48. So I don't

know, I can't remember how big it is miles or acres, but it's very expensive. And back there, you're near Yellowstone Park, but of course, that's protected. But it's the mountains that's that's in that same type of country. And because it's so wild, there's grizzlies, there's wolves, there's, of course, kios, there's mountain lions, and there's no, I mean, the traffic is because to get where I was hunting, it was a 28-mile horseback ride, and then I was 10 miles from that to where I was doing this hunt I want to describe. That's so remote, you're just not going to see people. But my perfect hunt, it was back there. If I think about it right now, it's just like everything was perfect. So here's what I see. Getting up at camp, four in the morning, getting some food,

it's an outfitter camp, canvas tents. You can hear the horses in the dark rustling around. They need to eat too. Maybe just kind of gathering your gear to. because back there, anything can happen. Weather can move in. It's the high country. Because it's so remote, an injury can result in a life flight helicopter, if there's one even available or can get back there. So you take all the gear you need to survive in case something happens.

Packs all loaded up. Get over there, put in the paniers of the horse, take off before first light with a horse. And you get up to where you can hear something. some bugles, maybe get a good glassing point as the sun comes up. So the sun comes up, it's exposing this, the most picturesque setting you've ever seen. The most incredible mounds. It looks like, you know, God's paint brush up there. It's just what you visualize when you think of wild and mountains.

And as the sun comes up, of course, it's red, amber, glow at first, and then color starts to come into the mounds, and then things start popping out. out and then the colors are pretty vibrant in that perfect setting before the sun gets too high and too intense. But that's when you can glass the animals because in that low, perfect light like that with the sun, the sun's still on the mountains, but the animal's hair glows. Deer are easier to see even though they're dark gray by this time. Some might still have their summer coat, which is kind of reddish.

Those will pop. The elk, which are creamy color, those will really pop. and you can see elk from from a great distance in that perfect light. So once the elk is spotted, you determine whether it's a big bowl. The one that the hunt I remember is in this remote basin, we went over glass down and saw a black grizzly. It, very dark. I mean, I thought it looked black, but it's definitely a grizzly bear, and it's going across the top of the basin. below that was a herd of elk and a big bull.

The wind is coming up because now the sun's up so the thermals have warmed. So the wind is rising slowly as it comes. So I need to approach that bull from the top right where that grizzly walked is flipping rocks looking for food. I circle around him. He moves over towards the head of the basin. I go on his backside and drop down towards that bull. how to guide with me. This is wilderness country,

so in Wyoming a guide is required. I like hunting on my own, but where it's required is required. But we move down towards that bowl, and by now it's pretty warm. The sun's been up. The dust is, you know, every step will be a, like,

it'll stir the dust up. It'll come up with around your booth and settle back down. and I had the guide behind me doing a cow call. And a cow call is just mimicking a female elk. And it's just a, you know, meow, like that. He's down. Wind's coming up, good.

So he's above me. So that bull is below me. I'm between the collar and the bull. The bull rips off a bugle. There's this thin row of trees, kind of stunted trees up in that high country. The growing season isn't very long because there's so much snow. So the growing season means that these trees grow pretty slow. So they stay small for a long time, years and years and years.

And then they finally get bigger. Well, these trees are up about maybe 20 feet tall, probably pretty old trees because that growing season is so. This is 10,000 feet. So it's in snow a lot of the year until the spring and summer. But I see those trees and I use them as a screen. With this wind coming up, I can still see the wind every time, every once in a while. I have a wind checker, but I don't really need to because that dust around my boot is rising up the hill with the thermals. That bull actually comes from behind that strip of trees.

By this time, I'm 50 yards away, and he's walking and he can't see me so that screen of trees is working perfect. And it's not clear enough where I can shoot. So I'm on my knees, and I'm waiting for them. You still watch the wind the whole time because the wind switches for a second. And if you felt that wind on the back of your neck, it pushes your seat. it pushes your scent towards a bull, bull's gone. That's how they survive,

is their nose. Their defense system is nose, eyes, ears. So if they smell you, it's over. They can see you, and if you don't move, for long enough, they'll stare, stare, stare, stare,

they're not sure what they saw. They thought they saw movement, stare, stare, stare, you stay. You keep your head down. You don't want your eyes. They, a prey animal, can feel the stare of a predator.

So you keep your hat bill down over your eyes. You're looking kind of at the animal's feet. So I'm looking at his hooves. He's looking up towards me. And I see he starts to walk again. So I raise my bill back up and now I can just peek under my hat. But he's going further away. I try to hustle up because he's getting every step he takes, he's getting further away.

And their strides are long. So I'm trying to go slow. He's just a stride. He's an 800 pound animal that's, you know, six feet at the shoulders, heads going up higher, and his strides are long, I'm losing ground. So by the time I get up to where I get a clear shot, now he's out there at a pretty long bow range. He's out there over 80 yards. And the sun's right behind him.

So he starts to make a dry wallow. He goes down with his antlers, and a dry wallows, there's no water. A lot of times these bulls want to get a muddy wallow. They cool off. there's thoughts that that mud sticking to their hide makes them look bigger animals can't communicate with voice but they can with body language so there's a thought that they feel like taking that mud on them by laying in a wet muddy wallow makes them appear bigger and they're so aggressive so they got that testosterone raging through their body because this is

a breeding season this is when they they breed the cows intense competition among bulls well he he starts making this dry wall though there's no water so there's no mud but he gets this dust flying up and he's his raking his antlers antlers are hitting dirt scraping rocks it's making it quite a racket just in the ground there but this big dust flume is flying up and i now i'm you know a long bow shot away but i i feel comfortable i feel confident this is you know 38 miles from the trailhead as wild as you can get just saw a grizzly heard wolves all night this is the exact moment that I live for. As that dust settles and the bull stops,

he's quartering away slightly. I arrange him with my rangefinder, tells me the yardage, I dial my site. My side is an adjustable site so I can dial it to the exact, has a pin, one pin, I can put it on the exact yardage

that animal is that I range. So now it comes down to me making the shot and that animal cooperating and staying put. He's got cow, so he's never really staying put. because he's worried about other bulls coming in. So he's surveying the country below him where the cows are. He's watching for intruders.

He's keeping an eye on predators that because there's grizzlies and wolves around. And a lot of times these bulls in that country, they don't like to call as much because every time they call like a bugle, it'll bring predators because the predators know there's a herd there. They're not going to kill a big bull, but they're kill a calf or a cow. So the bulls know this. So he's not calling a ton because this country is so wild. He doesn't want those grizzlies in there.

But he's calling enough just to keep the atmosphere there and to announce to other bulls that this is my herd, stay back. I come to full draw as he hesitates and he's looking down the hill. That dust is settling slowly. The sun is right behind him. So it's lit up. When I put my pin up to shoot, because I'm shooting into the sun, makes it very hard to see that pin.

And it's so bright. But I'm looking at him and his, he's silhouetted in that dust and the sun there. And it just, the pin comes down and it locks right on behind a shoulder where I want to shoot. I feel confident. I settle in. I level up my bow. There's a level on my bow site.

If you can't one way or the other, you can be off with a shot. You can't to the left. You might be off a foot to the left. to the right, same way to the right. So I level up. I got my bubble on my site right in the middle. I put my pin right behind his shoulder, a little back from the crease because her shoulder blade is pretty heavily

boned. It'll stop an arrow if you hit that shoulder blade or can stop an arrow. So I come back a few inches from the crease of a shoulder. Settle in. Level up. Slowly feel that trigger. I can fill with my index finger. Trying to relax. deep breath. My heart feels calm. Slowly applied pressure to that to my release. And it releases and

it lets that bowstring go. The bowstring pushes my arrow towards that bull. It's going about 290 feet a second by the time it leaves my bow. Bow releases arrows arcing towards that bull. He's still looking down the hill. I can watch that arrow track up into the sun, which is directly behind the bull, but that arrow goes up and I lose it in the sun. And then as the last moment, as it gets close to that bull, it drops down below his body line and strikes home perfectly behind his shoulder, about eight inches up from the bottom of his body, exactly where you want the shot. The arrow cuts through both lungs, goes all the way through the bull, the 800-pound animal,

and comes out on the other side. He runs 40 yards. He's stopped. Dust is flying again. His blood pressure is dropping because an arrow kills by hemorrhage, not by shock. A bullet will kill by shock. It'll break bones and muscle and tear things. A loud noise.

That gets the animals wound up. With a bow shot perfect like that, he doesn't know what happened. They get jabbed all the time. They're very physical animals, giant animals. But that arrow goes through so fast, he doesn't know what happened. He ran 40 yards, and all he knows is he's feeling. and lightheaded because his blood pressure dropped. His blood pressure, he keeps losing blood

because that razor sharp broadhead has caused a big hemorrhage through his body cavity, through both lungs. And in seconds, he passes out and then dies from blood loss. This all happens. My shot was 80 yards. He ran 40 yards and piled up, and he was dead in 10 seconds. I slowly make my way to the bull kneel down, put my hand on him

I thank him for a sacrifice and I will honor it his memory with his antlers will be under my wall the meat will be in my freezer I'm hauling a home on these first out of this wilderness on the horses then get processed then cut up frozen

in my freezer to share with my friends and family in that moment, that moment where I'm there with him, that is the vivid memory that I'll never forget. That whole experience I'll never forget, but that moment where the bull is fallen. He's fallen from my arrow, one arrow from my bow, a merciful death, a quick death, the best death a prey animal can ever have,

because otherwise it's old age, starve, predators, eat them as they die. They're not even dead yet. prejudice will be eating them or another bull fighting will kill them i found dead bulls out there from an antler wound in the neck um or it's just plain starving because they can't can't move around enough to find food a merciful death from a perfectly placed arrow is the best death they'll get this is an old bull he's lived his life 10 years back in the most wild country there is in the lower 48 and he's done his job. The herd will survive.

He's been a fixture in that country for many years, but there's young bulls to take his place, and to me, that's the perfect time. And if someone isn't as professional a sense of training, of taking care of their fitness, of shooting 15,000 arrows a year, and it's a non-ethical kill, what does that look like?

How is that death different? different. So if you're, if you're to the right, you hit the shoulder blade, like I said, this bull was facing to the right. And that'll be a wound that will, he probably won't die from. It'll, they're very tough animals. He's very, they're thick bone, like I said, heavily muscled. I love a sore shoulder. It'll take, they're much tougher than we are. They live in the mountains three to 65 days a year. So we can't even stay out there one night without nearly dying from hypothermia. So they're built for that.

So he could recover from a wound to the shoulder. If it hits to the left on the bull that was facing to the right, they're going to hit the liver, which is behind the lungs. A liver will kill the bull. It'll take eight hours. So it's going to be eight hours of him, bedded down.

I don't know how they interpret pain. I know different than we do. But it's going to be uncomfortable. He's going to be uncomfortable and he's going to die because all your blood goes through your liver. But it's not going to be what I determine a merciful kill. It's, it happens sometimes. No death. Anything that's alive clings to life.

So I would expect nothing different. Nothing dies easy. Humans don't die easy. Animals don't die easy. That's just something that's living is going to cling to life. But he'll die. It'll take eight hours. If you're further to the left and you hit guts,

right through the stomach, you miss that liver, you're too far back, that death is going to be elongated. That's going to be, it could be up to 24 hours, and he's going to get very sick, and he will die eventually, and they can cover a lot of distance before they get sick. That's a tough one to find the animal, because with the archery shot, you find by following blood. So you go, you find your arrow if it came out,

if it was a pastor like that might, and I can look at that arrow and I can see what type of blood it is. And I can read where that animal hit if I'm unsure by what's on the arrow. A stomach shot, you're going to look and there'll be green, the grass, where it's digesting what it's been eating. It'll stink because there's in the stomach. It has to break that stuff down. So it's got an odor to it.

And you know there's going to be little blood because the stomach doesn't blood. bleed like a muscle would bleed or like the lungs bleed or like, you know, a major artery bleeds. It's just, it doesn't bleed like that. So it's going to be very tough tracking. The animal can cover great distance and it is going to die, yes, but finding it's going to be very hard. That's the worst case scenario. A gut shot animal is what every hunter tries to avoid because it's a longer death and it leaves very little blood to follow. So it's, it's not easy to do. if you're not trained, you're not prepared for that, and you're not 100% confident that that arrow is going to go exactly where you want it to go,

that animal's life and how it transitions to death, how it's going to die is in your hands. To me, there's nothing, I can't, nothing more serious than that. I can't take anything more serious than I'm trying to kill that animal. And my behavior, my preparation, and the decisions I make is going to determine that animal's fate. I take that very seriously. If you're not 100% prepared,

you shouldn't take a shot like I described at that distance, but you also should be disciplined in what you're capable of. I think people need to really think about when they let that arrow go, what that's going to mean to the animal. And that's what I try to think every day, every day when I'm shooting, when I'm preparing, when I'm doing those 15,000 shots a year.

It's not just because I like shooting a bow. it's because I feel a moral obligation to be the most merciful hunter I can be. And that's what I strive for in every hunt. How much surface area coverage do you have to make that shot for the most ethical, fastest kill? So if we're talking elk, lungs are, I mean, it's at least a 12-inch diameter area. Lungs are pretty big. I mean, there's a shoulder blade on one side. they kind of go, they start big towards behind the shoulder and then get smaller as it go towards the top, towards the back of the animal.

And then the liver's kind of underneath where it gets smaller. But it's if you, you know, it'd be a pretty good size area, like a smaller animal, like a deer, of course, would be smaller. A bear, bear have, they're even a little bit smaller lungs, I think partly because they're hibernating for months out of the year. So their lungs aren't expanding. but an elk has a pretty generous size kill zone. So you should be able to make that shot if you put in the work. So it's a thing with people ask me all the time coming from Pennsylvania. Oh, you never gotten to hunting in Pennsylvania.

And there was nothing back there that I was attracted to. Yeah. Like people around me growing up, they went out, they went to camp, they went and sat in a blind, like I said, and they sat with a rifle. and that just that wasn't attractive to me. Right. But a hunt like that, that's what I'd want to do. Like this is the process you are trained, you are an expert.

And even when you get out to the, say you get to the backcountry, you spot an elk and you get up on top of it within range, but you don't get a clear shot. Sometimes just because you're within range doesn't mean you're getting a kill. Right. Many times you don't. because so many variables have to come into play. And with archery, it's different than rifle. The angle of the animal that you're delivering that arrow into is everything. If it's quartering to you, so that means their head is closer and then the butt's further away at an angle.

A rifle you could shoot towards the front of the chest and go right through that near side shoulder and still get in his chest. An arrow won't do that. you can't you shouldn't take a quarter and two um shot on a on a heavily boned animal like an elk because they're so they have all these like their sternum their ribs are really thick where they come off the sternum their shoulders are very heavily bone their shoulder blades or you know thick of this table seemingly um there's so much protection there from because they're built for fighting and fighting another bull so that front of of their body is very protected you want to come in on broadside, which means it perfectly sideways to you or even quartering away,

where you can come in from the back, like you come in from the back behind the last rib and get up and you try to go through that far side shoulder, last rib, far side shoulder, the arrow will go right through the lungs. That's a perfect shot because you'll go through liver, lungs, you could even catch the heart. That's a, but you have to be very disciplined with the bow. You can get away with a lot more with the rifle on the angle because it'll just blow right through it. So yeah, it's just because you're in bow range doesn't mean you're going to get a shot. And then because you're so close, you can get picked up. The animal can see you or the wind can switch. But they're so dialed in and catching movement because they've been hunted by back there,

Grizzlies, wolves and lions, they see anything move and they look. And they're like, I saw something move. I don't smell anything, but something moved. And so you really have to be careful of your movement. So a lot of guys get into bow range. and as they're preparing to shoot because they're right where they want to be. They've dreamt about this for months. They are too hasty in their action and they get picked off in the animal spook. So you're hunting out by yourself. You know, you're the predator in the sense of the hunt.

Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you are the prey? Yeah, those, I mean, those are the type of hunts that I, love the most, I think. Because even when I grizzly hunt or brown bear hunt or I've even been to Africa and hunted lion, I didn't kill one, but I've been in the wood, in the, in the back country of Africa with lions. But I don't take a side arm myself. My attitude is I'm trying to kill this animal with a bow. If something happens, tables turn, I get killed, that's just the way it goes.

I'm not, I'm not, I understand how it works and I'm willing to accept that risk. So the greatest hunts for me is when I have to be at my best, and that's the grizzly, brown bear, K. Buffalo in Africa, lion in Africa, those are the ones where you can't afford, you don't have the advantage, they have the advantage. You have a bow with an arrow. They have killer instinct, speed, power, perception and smell, sight probably not as good, but pretty close, some of those animals. And they can hear much better. So they have all the advantages.

That's what I love. I love being in those intense situations. there's a there's a hunt I did in Alaska where the brown bear gets up he's 40 yards away and he's staring right at me that moment it and I have just have a bow that moment is what I live for right there and what's going to happen don't know I mean is a bear going to get up see us you know they're all body language and size and they can see somebody who weighs 170 pounds it weighs hundreds and hundreds of pounds more. Is he going to see like, oh, that's an inferior animal to me.

I'm going to go kill it. Or am I going to make a good shot? Is it going to, after I shoot it, is it going to come to me or is it going to run away? Those are the moments that I live for. And on that hunt, I came back 40 yards, made a perfect shot. The bear ran off and died in seconds. And that worked out. But it's like that, everything hanging in the balance, those are the moments that,

that's what I think about every day. Those moments, that's living to me. That's the adventure I seek. And, I mean, that's what drives me. You ever carry a pistol? No, never. It's just, it's all in. Yeah, I'm not, yeah, it sounds weird and I'm sure people won't get it

or they might think, they'll probably think I'm lying, people who don't know me. Anybody who's hunted with me knows. It's just, it's not what I do. I just don't take a gun. I don't like guns on my bow hunt. I don't, I'm not worried about being bailed out by a gun or,

or, I just, I want, I kind of romanticize the experience and this is just how it's supposed to be. I'm trying to kill them and I'm, I'm at risk too. That's okay.

And this is your obsession. Yes. Pure obsession. Yeah. Do you ever feel bad for people who never find an obsession? Yes. Oh, yeah.

I mean, because I, I was close to not finding it. you know without bow hunting you know i was i was trying to get a job working in the woods as a back there being a choker setter you could make pretty good money just working on a logging crew and getting timber out it's timber country back in oregon and i was you know they made 13 dollars an hour to start and that was you know that was what i do i like being in the woods um seemed like a good way to make money loggers were tough i'm like that sounds cool

You know, so without ball hunting, who knows? So yeah, I feel terrible. I mean, if not for bull hunting, I wouldn't be here talking to you, I wouldn't be doing this tour, talking about this book endure, which is, I hope, gives people like me who are right on the cusp

of like what, which direction is your life going? So people like me who can read this and say that, well, these tiny micro decisions lead this way and who knows where that's, ultimately going to go. But yeah, I mean, that's the biggest reason I wrote the book is because going through life without finding your true purpose, I think, you know, as they say, a man's greatest regret is untapped potential. And I 100% agree. And I just think there's so many people

out there who have amazing potential and an ability that if that was, you pulled back the the curtains and you could see what your potential was and what you could do could change, not the world, but change other people's lives and be a positive influence. And it's, if you never find that, that'd be, that'd be terrible. So I want, I want people to find their true potential. A lot of people, I mean, it's sad, but a lot of people die without knowing their, their full potential or even a fraction of it. Yeah, I know. Like, took about like the what ifs a lot in the book. Yeah. And people live, they're on their deathbed.

What if I would have changed this? What if I, what could I have been? And Tucker Max, I read this quote by Tucker Max this one time. And he said his greatest fear in life that when he dies and he goes to heaven, he meets the man that he could have been. Right. That's an eye opener because we have so much potential. Like we have so much

And it's really easy to say Must be nice Going back to the beginning Of looking someone who is at a point in their life Must be nice to have that Must be nice to have made the right decisions It's not someone made the right decisions You just made a decision

You just took a step It's just taking that first step And just You know it's the whole Go on more Or keep hammering mindset Yeah It's sometimes you need that first win

Yeah And that first win Bring some confidence and you realize, oh shit, like, where else can I take this? Yeah. What else is down there? Yeah, it's just being in the game.

It's just like, and Roy would say that too. When we were hunting, he'd say, I don't really know what to do, but just let's get out there and see what happens. So you've got to be out there. You know what I mean? Just like in hunting, you're never going to kill anything from your couch wondering,

you know, I wonder if it's hunting good. I wonder if the weather's good. I wonder what the animals are doing. Get out there and anything can happen. But you have to, to be out there, take that first step and just be in the woods or, and even with running, and I know you get this a lot too, but people don't know where to start. Start by getting out that freaking of that house, closing that door and just getting outside and just starting,

just do something. And then you build on that. But it doesn't have to be anything crazy. It doesn't have to be, you know, a marathon or doesn't have to be an ultramarathon. It has to be walking around the block. That's where it starts. That's where everybody starts. You walk around the block or maybe you run a mile or maybe you walk a mile. Or maybe you walk a mile. and just that consistent effort will lead you to go one more and then who knows where you end up. A lot of people look at you and I think they identify you as a runner. But am I correct in saying that you identify as a bow hunter? You just, you run 100 mile 200 plus mile races to be a better bow hunter.

Yeah. I'm definitely not a runner. I mean, I've been around elite runners to know that, oh, that's an elite runner. I'm definitely not that. But I've never, everybody has goals and races and you want to get this time and you want to do that. But it's just like you, if you were focused on being the best runner you could be, you would get down to 165 pounds, right? But you're not trying to be the best runner.

You're trying to be like a hybrid athlete, a balanced athlete, a strong, a strong, a man with great endurance. So there's going to be a middle ground there. For me, I'm trying to be the best bow hunter in the mountains I can be. And endurance and strength helps me. Endurance and strength aren't the goal. The goal is bow hunting. So they help me achieve my goal of being merciful

and being the best I can be in the mountains. That's why I run. And it's a lot of respect for the animal. Yeah. Yeah. And the experience. and just, I mean, we owe the land, the people who came before us and the families that are back home supporting us and relying on the meat that I might bring home. We owe it to them to be our best.

I mean, it's a responsibility. Being a hunter, there's some ethics involved. There's a personal accountability. But it's also you're representing this lifestyle being a hunter. Where I came from being a hunter was somebody who was revered and looked up to, like, oh, they, you know, they, you know, they, always killed their buck that year that year so that was somebody who people held up on a pedestal and then going into the book endure you know you've been doing this for decades now right like and it's really easy for people like the the iceberg analogy someone to look in at

a glimpse of your life right now and saying yeah this guy just he had the skills he had the he had the talent right away he went from zero to a hundred and yeah and one year but you've been at this for a long time and just and just chipping away you know it's I like to say that consistency compounds. And sometimes you do something for one, three, five, ten years and you still haven't seen any results. And then you start picking up some momentum. Endur is the whole concept behind endurance. It's more than just, it's more than endurance races.

It's more than going on these big hunts. It's life as a whole. Yes. All these things have come together to influence the trajectory of your life. Yeah. And that's what I said. like earlier, I mean, you'll have more talent, but I'll outwork you. And that's the only reason anybody knows who I am is I've just been working for so long.

Could easily quit many times. I wanted to quit, felt frustrated many times. I felt like I wasn't getting opportunities, felt like I was powerless because I was relying on these magazines to give me an opportunity to write for them. There was no such thing as social media. So I didn't have that guaranteed outlet to share my experiences. paint that picture with words like I'd love to do. I didn't have it. I was relying on other people to give me that.

And that was very frustrating because I thought I had the ability, but I just needed somebody to believe in me. And sometimes you're not going to have somebody to believe in you. You just got to keep at it. You keep at it, and eventually they'll come around. And my whole thing, even with now people, I have partners who do believe in me, but I'm not happy there.

I want to be, I want to make our relationship a, no-brainer for them to be like, yeah, we actually, we can't believe what Cam's doing or, or people he's influenced or whatever. We thought we're happy here and you're doing more. So it's just like that never-ending goal of first earning an opportunity, then making people believe in you, and then getting people as cheerleaders. And that can take for me 30 years. I mean, it was a grind. And how much time is 30 years or so many days where I'm like, I'm wasting my time or I'm

spending too much money or too much time doing this. I'm away from my family. I'm not being a good dad or husband. I need to, you know, give up on this thing. But it's just like, it's just that something that is when you find your purpose, it's, I mean, it's a long race. And eventually you keep at it long enough. you will outlast everybody else

and then you'll be the last one standing. Yeah, it seems like it's a common question that people ask. A lot of people who have reached a level of success to matter how you define that. And it's like, what kept you going when you weren't seeing the results

or why it wasn't paying off? I don't think there's typically an answer for it. I was either too dumb to stop or something in your gut just felt right, just say keep going. Yeah. Just show up a more day. Just keep sticking it out because what you end up realizing is no one's ever going to care

as much about your goals as you do. Right. And it's really hard to get people to understand that. Like when you're going at with hunting and training and ultras, and I'm sure people from the outside looking in were saying, the fuck are you doing? Yeah. Like why are you doing all this stuff?

Yeah. But something just feels right just to keep going. Yeah, I mean, I was getting, I got criticized a lot for how running marathons, people would, mostly now is within the industry. Because some hunters look at it like a way to get away, more of a recreation thing, they're not wanting to go run marathons to do this. So they, instead of saying, oh, you know, props, man, he's working hard for that. They'd say it's stupid, you don't need to do that. It was wasting his time. Kim thinks you need to run a marathon to kill an elk, which I've never said.

I just do that. But people will try to shoot holes in that because it doesn't match what they want to do or their goals. So instead of, you know, realizing or accepting that, oh, this guy's taking a different path, going to respect that, they'll just, you know, talk shit about it. But it can't be any different than your journey here. I mean, a supplement company, how unreal, you know, you're in the army. how unrealistic does it I mean it seems absurd to think that

it would turn into what you have built here when you first started right so what kept you going it just felt right right like I look back at when I first got started and you try to you know you try to look back when you first got started

and say yeah this is what I envisioned but it never is no you know what you envisioned it would look like is often a fraction of what it actually becomes. And it's one of those things you just keep, you just keep showing up and doing a little bit more and a little bit more. And you get to a point where you realize if this is something I actually want, there's nothing that's holding me back. The only thing that's holding me back is myself. Right.

And it's really easy when you first get started and you look at people who are doing it or your heroes or these influential people. and you convince yourself that they have something that I don't. They have a skill, they have an experience, they have a gene that I don't have, and you finally realize there's nothing that really separates them other than they just kept sticking it out. Yeah. And just kept showing up day in and day out when they wanted to and when they didn't want to.

And that's like, that's a secret to it. And most people end up quitting before they just scratch the surface. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's just time. It takes time. And I think it's like it gives people who will stick with it even more power in this day and age because people are, they want that instant gratification. They want the instant results because that's what social media kind of rewards. So it's probably going to make people that will that will stick to it and just put in time, time every day, day after day, work, work.

It'll make those people even rise quicker because society is going away from. that hard work grinded out mindset. But that's great for the people who will just keep hammering. Yeah, me, if you, if you're in it for the long haul, there's very few people who are patient enough to be it for the long haul. And you don't require it. You don't need instant gratification. And I'm assuming as we move forward and in life,

and this is why I'm nervous to have this daughter in the next seven weeks, because I know in 15 years when, you know, she's older, I'm scared about how, how instant we want that gratification. Yeah. And there's a big difference. You can tell when someone's in it for the long haul and their patient and they're willing to wait 10, 20, 30 years to see success. And then when someone wants it right now. And I think that's a gene. I think that's something that's embedded in you and you can't really teach someone that.

those are the people that I'm attracted to, the people who just work hard. The people who, for me, have the most impact on my life are the people who have just been grinding it out day after day after day. And I don't know if it's by accident or by design, but, you know, a Goggins. Rogan started, he started like anybody else over there in Northeastern, kind of by you with no advantage. And look at where he's at. a Courtney, you know, quitting her first hundred.

Emma, who I run with, been running since she was a little girl there in Crescenta, Butte, Colorado, and now a three-time Olympian. And it's like those stories about these people just show up and everybody knows them now. Decades. This has been a decades long journey. Yeah, you know about them now. And like Emma has 500,000 followers and it's amazing. Courtney, everybody loves Courtney.

you know, Rogan, he's one of the most popular people in the world. But nobody knows this has been, you know, for Rogan, he's 54, he's been working his ass off for 40 years, you know? And I don't know, those are the type of people, you, your story, these are type of people who I want to hang out with because I feel like these guys get it. They get what sacrifice is. They get that it's not going to happen overnight.

But when it does happen, it's going to be incredible. And it can, or it can be incredible. It's up to you. But those are the type of people who are like, no, that's my, I don't know, that's who I want to learn from, grow from, and observe. And that's why it's been great to be here with you. That's some of the best years, too, when you first get started. Because when no one knows who you are, what you're doing, you can fail as many times as you want. Yeah.

And no one cares. Right. Like you say it, nobody cares. Work harder. Yeah. And, I mean, just applying it to hunting, for example, when you first got started hunting and you went out on a hunt on your own, nobody cares if you made the kill or you didn't.

And you just kept showing up to work harder and work harder. Because, like, you're not, you're not getting the kill in, you know, the 80s and 90s and then posting a photo on Instagram and getting 3,000 comments and people saying, good job. It's right. the win is carrying that elk back and putting the meat in your freezer. Yeah. And I, even without that, even without nobody really caring, I cared so much about success.

And it's like, you know, I wanted that more than anything. It's like, I had, my limits have changed, but I had no limits from what I knew. And now my limits are further down, further. And I, I accomplish more and do more things and have a different standard I set. But I still was pushing my limits. at that time because I wanted that success more than anything. And if I didn't have it, it was devastating, devastating to me. One year in 1999, I was only successful in one hunt.

I killed a bear in the Eagle Cap Wilderness. And that was the only successful hunt I had that whole year. And it almost, I mean, it was so hard to take because this is like, well, this is what I gear my life towards. I'm a bow hunter. I had this dream of killing a big bull elk. and I've failed all season. And that was the hardest lesson to learn.

But it's like that, that failure is what's driven me to like, I can never be too prepared. I can never, it's never enough. And that's still been my attitude. So even without the pressure of having to perform for your followers or anything else,

I've had that internal pressure that just wouldn't allow me to settle for anything less than my best. I think that the obsession has to be internal. If it's not internal and if the obsession is for an external source or factor, there's no real passion behind it. Yeah. Like I have people that reach out to me and say, I want to start a business. What business should I start?

What the fuck does it matter what I think? I know, I know. How is that going to build any longevity into any of your plan? No. What are you obsessed with? Right. Because if you're not obsessed with, that when no one's watching, you're not going to care.

No, yeah, I know. It's a, nobody can tell you what we should. I mean, the obsession is, I don't know, I just, and I worry people can't find it or aren't exposed to enough things to find that thing that does it for them. And so all I know is I, I found bow hunting, and then I found amazing people through bow hunting

that have allowed me to just up my game. And it's like, it's like I say, over and over, it's that perspective. So when you are around people who have that same winning mindset and are willing to just sacrifice, you can learn so much from those people. And it's like this journey as a human is so complicated, so up and down. And we're so, you know, emotional whims and different things affect us and different journeys or paths in our life. But man, being around like special people, people who inspire you, I don't know, that's,

I feel like that's been the greatest gift of my life as people I've been able to meet. And like you said last night when we finished the run, talked about the power and seeing other people win too. It's really easy to think that in your life you have this bag and it has like these golden chips and each one of those chips is a win. And if you give too many out to your friends or you praise too many other people around your circle with these golden chips are eventually going to run out. But it's this endless bucket. Like we want to see other people win. You want to see your friends win. You want to see your family win.

You want to win yourself. Yeah. And you want people to cheer you on as much as you're cheering them on. Yeah. It's, yeah. And I, you know, as a young man, I used to look at everybody's competition and think that if they, if they're winning, that took from me. And it's not the case. and then it's like another shift I had. It's like, and people say this too, it's the more you give, the more you receive. It's, I didn't realize,

I thought that was just talk. And I've seen how generous Rogan is, for example, and it's, he seems like life rewards him. So I tried to emulate that. And I've just been, I give as much as I can. I love giving.

I mean, whether it's meat, money, whatever the case. But I have noticed that the more I've been, not hoarding things, for myself because I thought everybody's competition and the golden chips, as you mentioned. But I've been more giving and not really keep track of how much money I make,

not really keep track of how much I have or anything really about a personal win and been more generous with either words or whatever. I've received so much more. I've received so many more blessings because of that. I don't know if it's energy. I don't want to sound too like a hippie over here.

but it's amazing the more you give is definitely true the more you receive you quoted in the book Socrates he said it is the shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength for which his body is capable and I couldn't relate to that more you know I think of I've been saying this to my wife Steph for the last couple years I don't think she understands what I'm trying to say, but you sit in the book too where if you don't finish a day and you're not beat down and exhausted

and there's a little bit of suffer and you just kind of, you put it all out there. You emptied your tank. You don't finish days like that. You feel like you're cheating yourself. And, you know, we're in this space where everyone wants

to optimize everything and optimize the body and health and I think we get away some times of just pushing the limits to find out, we are capable of because if you don't push, you don't sacrifice, you don't experience that suffering, you leave potential on the table. Has your mindset always been that way?

Or did you have to learn that as you got older? I learned that and it's just, I just know how I feel. And it's like I feel best when I'm exhausted for whatever reason, whether I just want, I want to give all I have because I've always felt like naturally I don't have an. advantage. I have to give more. That's been my whole thing. So the measurable is miles every day, because I can't go scout elk. I have to go to work, but I know I can sacrifice and get miles in every day. And sometimes I give up sleep to do that. And a lot of people, they get so protective over their sleep and they're this or that. And overtraining, they talk about all the time. I don't know,

personally, I don't know anybody who overtrains. I've never met somebody who's like truly overtrained. I'm sure there's professional athletes who have to be very intentional with their training. So I want to exclude them because they're the top, you know, one percent of one percent. But I see these people and they're worried about getting all their sleep while they're, you know, pushing 30, 40 percent of their potential. It's like start giving 100 percent, then you can start worrying about rest. You know, don't worry about rest when you're barely doing anything. It's like your body's fine, trust me. So it's like you can't, I get the recovery and the sleep and how sacrifice works,

but I think people get too wrapped up in all this optimization, you know, sleep, got to sleep at least eight hours a day while they're not taking full advantage of their ability. If you start doing that, then yeah, let's talk about rest. But that's where I've been. I've never been where I feel like I need to, I'm not getting enough rest. It's more like I need to work more. I think a lot of people want to estimate where their breaking point is without actually trying to find their breaking point. That's it.

I mean, I want to know where my breaking points at. Yeah. It's really hard to find it. It is. Yeah. I mean, those long ultras can do that. And that's what I've, but still, even so, just like life, you go through so many ups and downs. I've been in ultras where it feels like I can't run another step.

And then five hours later, I'm running free and strong. So when I finished Moab, 238.3 miles, I watched myself across the finish line. I knew how I fell back from the finish line. And it wasn't that great sometimes. Sometimes it was really good. Towards the end, it was really good. I come across that line. And I'm like, I got more.

That 238 miles isn't my breaking point. So what is it? Still looking. That's what's exciting. Yeah, you kind of break down Courtney's run that she did. I think it was like two years ago is the 300 plus. Yeah, she was going for like 500 miles, I believe. The Colorado Trail.

She found a breaking point there. But sometimes your breaking point changes, right? Like there's factors that get in a way. And I mean, it's the power of these ultra races is there's these highs and lows. Right. Like huge highs and then huge lows. It's like running in general. If I'm going on a long run, I always know there's going to be a low.

Yeah. But I always know that after that low, there's going to be a high. But I always know after that high, there's going to be another low. Right. And you're just, it's all mental, right? Like, it's all mental. You're just in and out the entire time. Yeah.

But it's just fighting back against that. Yeah. And that, what's amazing in that run where she ran 309 miles that she ended up in the, in the ER. But it wasn't running wise. She was, we were going up this one, I mean, pretty close to that 309 mile model. I think maybe it was like 260, but a big, steep climb. I mean, it was hard. And so I was going pretty good.

I was with her and her husband, Kevin, was there too. And I thought we were pushing and like we're going to get a little gap on her and then wait for her to come up because probably I needed a little break. But I was pushing pretty hard and I look and she is right behind me. It's like, what? She'd been running for four days. And I feel like I was pushing. She's having, you know, she had bronchitis, which had,

I don't know if she's sick to start off, but the dust and the heat and everything got in her lungs, got probably dehydrated from inside out, and then also it was very warm. So she had a lot to overcome that she wasn't really at her best right there. And still, I mean, still crushing it. It's like, like I say, she's showed me so much about, and her attitude, that whole time, bloody nose. It's probably smiling. Not smiling, but a pretty good attitude. Yeah.

I mean, she was pretty fatigued, but it's four days, though, dude. And she would, we sat down to take a picture one time she fell asleep. It was like in the, I think might have been the last morning. I can't remember. But so tired and would sleep on the trail for a few minutes every once in a while and still get up and just, I don't know. It's so amazing. So her limit that day or those days was 309. but I know she can do that Colorado Trail.

I know she can break the record. The record is it was eight days. She was trying to do it in seven days. And I know if the time allows, that was like a COVID time, so the races were canceled. So it was a perfect opportunity to take on a challenge like that.

But yeah, I mean, I love seeing people lay it all out on the line. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, but you always, you know, as they say, you always learn. It's awesome to see. people win and and fail in the process.

Yeah, yeah. Because one, when you see someone fail, you know that they push it that hard. And typically when someone who is a high achiever that fails is going to come back at it even harder. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she bounced back from that. She's won a lot of races since then.

Yeah. You know, just coming across that big smile she's famous for and just being a beast. I love the whole the whole keep hammering mindset. You know, it's, it's very similar to go on more. And it's the way I live my life. I'm sure it's what you live your life. It's every day, how can I keep pushing just a little bit more? I always can go a little bit further, a little bit harder.

I don't want to finish this life with the what-ifs. Right. I want to know that I did everything. I couldn't. And I don't know if you're the same way, but I'm hard to shit on myself. I'll lay in bed at night. And I'll tell myself, you're fucking piece of shit. shit. Yeah. Like you're so much better than this. Like you can work so much harder. You can do so much

more. Um, I'm never my own hype man. I'm always the guy. It's, it's talking shit to myself because yeah, you know what you're capable of, truly capable of. And putting it all out there every single day. It's tough. But it's the only way you find it. I don't sometimes I don't know what I'm capable of. Sometimes I do. I go through ups and downs where I was like, sometimes I'm like, well, I can do more. Maybe I can be, I don't know what. Maybe I can, I'm not, I don't know what I would be, but maybe I can do more. And then there's some days where I'm like, I've been lucky. I've thought to myself, even on hunts, they're so hard. I've done it for 34 years now. Like, I thought to myself, Have I got lucky for 34 years?

I mean, it feels like I'm not very good at this sometimes. One person who's always there in my corner who I gave him a book and I wrote in it as Joe, he wrote the forward. And I said, I wish I believed in myself as much as you believe in me. Because he believes in me. I don't believe in me. So I'm like, just like you and like so hard, hard on myself. And it's like, I don't know. I don't know if maybe that's a good thing too.

I don't know because I don't want to. to be the guy who who thinks I'm better than I am, you know. So is this the opposite of that? So is that what we want? But I know sometimes I feel like I'm a fraud. I've got lucky. This is fake. Somebody's going to figure out that I'm really not that good. That's how I feel most the time. So. Well, when you put that much work into something, you know, you like, you spend the time running, you train, you obsess on something. I think just when you keep doing that for a period of time, a long period of time, it builds this confidence, but also a level of, of doubt of,

where else can I take this? But I also believe, like, I love saying that, I think doubt is only dangerous when you start doubting yourself. Because I'm sure, like, when you got started, when I got started doing all of this stuff, everyone doubted me. I doubted myself. Everyone's telling you you can't do this. My dad told me, you can't do this. You're not going to do this. Doubt is only dangerous when you start doubting yourself and you start believing these people. But when you believe, I can do whatever I want to do, you have the confidence to actually put yourself out there and fail. Yeah. Now, take a risk.

Yeah, you need them. Yeah, you got to take a risk. And that's what you've done here. And it's like, It's paying off big time. I'm so impressed. I appreciate it. And this is like the studio, but I mean, when I walked through your whole office and saw all the people, I don't know, I can't tell you how, how it feels good for me to see, I mean, you're a little bit older than my sons, I think. How old are you? 31. Yeah.

So just like when they're succeeding, I mean, I don't look as you like a son, but like a young man, it's like this success that you've had at 31. on, it's incredible. So I love seeing a generation younger than me, essentially, doing great things. Just like I'm proud of like Tanner Truitt and seeing what you're doing here, it's like you can be an inspiration probably to them to make a mark because you're doing it. I appreciate that. And I'm going to use you as an example. That means a lot, Cam.

I respect what you're doing, everything you've done, the way you've built your brand, the people that follow you, the, they, Keep hammering mindset. And I thoroughly enjoyed the book. It was an excellent book. Thank you very much. Boy, I appreciate the time today. Man, I know you're a busy guy.

Yeah. And I want a big book tour. But for anyone listening, Endurur by Cameron Haynes is definitely one to pick up. Thank you. Appreciate the time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Bear Performance Podcast. Please leave a rating and review on the platform you are listening to if you enjoyed it. It helps us to grow and reach more people with the intent.

of changing lives through the Go One More mindset. If you are ready to take your health and performance to the next level, head over to BPNSups.com to take the first step.