The One You Feed - A Journey of Music and Friendship with Colin Gawel & Joe Oestreich

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

In this episode, Eric is joined by his good friends, Joe Oestreich and Colin Gawel, as they reflect on their journey of music and friendship. The duo delves into their deep-rooted passion for music, and how their camaraderie has fostered an unbreakable bond since their teenage years. Their unwavering commitment to creating music on their own terms stands as a testament to their resilience and dedication. Joe and Colin’s narrative is a beautiful reminder of the enduring power of friendship, passion, and the pursuit of creative fulfillment amidst life’s unpredictable twists and turns. In this episode, you will be able to: Uncover strategies for balancing a career with personal growth and fulfillment Learn effective ways to overcome challenges and maintain long-term friendships Uncover the benefits of intrinsic motivation for fueling creativity and passion Gain insights into navigating life and career transitions after setbacks Explore the significance of embracing aging and evolving identity To learn more, click here:  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I think maybe we got addicted to rock and roll when we were 14 or 15 playing together and our brains are permanently attracted to that dopamine of playing music together. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.

Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. This January, join me for our third annual January Jumpstart series. Starting January 1st, we'll have inspiring conversations to give you a hand in kick-starting your personal growth. If you've been holding back or playing small, this is your all-access pass

to step fully into the possibilities of the new year. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer.

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions, the podcast where boundaries are pushed and conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, Weezy WTF. And me, Mandy B. As we dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships

and explore the often taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday and Wednesday, we both invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. Tune in and join in the conversation. Listen to Decisions Decisions on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. On today's episode, Eric interviews Joe A. Strike and Colin Gowell, who are best known

as members of the band Watershed. They have both been guests on the podcast as individuals before, but there's a focus on friendship and relationship sustainability in today's interview. We'll be talking about Watershed the band, Joe and Colin as friends, Joe's well-known book, Hitless Wonder, and Watershed's amazing new album, Blow It Up Before It Breaks. Colin, Joe, welcome to the show. Good to be here. Great to be here, Eric. You guys are both previous guests of the show.

I was just saying, Joe, you were one of our first five guests. And collectively, you guys make up the band Watershed, which is sort of a Columbus institution. And you guys have been doing it since we were all in high school, which was a long time ago now. So this conversation is really going to orient around sustaining creativity and friendship over the long haul, which you guys have been able to do both things. Your new record, I think, is one of your very best, you know, all these years later. But before we get into that, we'll start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there's two wolves inside of us. One's a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and

fear. The grandchild stops, think about it for a second, and look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'm going to first let you respond to this, Joe, because you did it furthest ago. Colin's a little bit more recently. What does that parable mean to you in your life and in the work that you do? I'm glad that our original interview was like 12 years ago because I don't remember what I said the first time. So I hope I say something completely different this time. And I am now a father, and I think I was probably a brand new father when

we talked last time. And being a father really teaches you that you're not the center of the earth, and your desires are not always the most important thing. And the ability to care for something else, some other being, whether it's a child, a friend, a spouse, dependent, a dog with a torn ACL. Being able to care for somebody else is such a privilege. And I think that's what feeds me is just sort of giving up some selfishness in favor of a little bit of selflessness has been a great maturing phase for me. And so that's what feeds me right now is kind of taking care of other people. That might sound a little corny, but that's where I am. Beautiful. Love it.

Colin, anything you want to add? Yeah. I mean, for me, it's always been pretty steady where, you know, I look at each day like as a day where you can either be productive or not productive and every decision you have a choice. And I'm not perfect in any way at all, but every day I try to, whether it's, you know, work out, read a book, listen to a podcast, drink water, you know, in addition to eating pizza and having beer and all these things. Eat Greek yogurt without fruit. No fruit. Irrational choice.

But I just try to approach every day, like maybe you don't have your best day. There's a new day tomorrow. So I try to every day, just try to challenge myself, whatever that means to myself to do better. And then obviously you try to surround yourself with people that you look up to and admire. And that puts like your family, like my wife and son are both amazing people. So I'm always like, I don't want to be absolutely the weakest link in this family. You know what I mean? I just want to skate by. So I, you know, being around, you know, good people, obviously those decisions, that's another way too, I think, to kind of feed your good side, but people that are feeding their good wolves around you.

If I was a getcha type of interviewer, I would now ask you who the weak link in the family really is. But I'm not going to do that. That's not what we do here. So yeah, you mentioned there the importance of surrounding yourself with good people. Obviously, one of the things that strikes me about you guys and the reason I wanted to talk to you guys is that you have been friends and bandmates for a long, long time and continue to do it. And, you know, one of the things, Joe, you wrote a book, that's probably a decade ago, called Hitless Wonder. you wrote a book, it's probably a decade ago, called Hitless Wonder. And in that book,

you're sort of raising an overall question of like, well, why are we still doing this when it's not by traditional measures successful? Meaning, you know, you guys aren't getting paid a ton of money, you're not getting, you know, millions and millions of streams, right? It's a project that you guys do because you love it. And I'm curious, what is it about it for you guys that keeps you doing it today? And do you feel differently about that, Joe, than you did a decade ago? Yeah, I do feel differently because when I wrote the book, one of the questions that I was kind of struggling with is the fact that we've been together for so long and we're still doing it despite having so little of what conventionally is described as success, financially or critical

success in some cases, is it admirable or pathetic that we're still doing it? And in the process of writing the book, I definitely have come down on the side of it's admirable. I was a little bit torn at the beginning and now I am well over it. Heck yeah, it's admirable that we're still doing this. I mean, we are friends that are engaged in a lifelong project together and that's super cool. We would be friends anyway without the project, but with the project, it's sort of like this unifying principle that kind of keeps us focused and gives us an excuse to be here right now with you. Without these gigs that we were playing this weekend, we wouldn't be sitting here today. So it's kind of like this container that is keeping us together.

Without the band, we would still be friends. There's no doubt about it. That's why the band is so strong. But the focus and the project that the band provides has really been a gift. Right, because you don't live in town, right? You are here in Columbus because of this show. And I love that idea of it being a container. One of the reasons that I started this podcast was because I thought I could get Chris,

my best friend, who I was hoping would join us for this conversation, and it just didn't work out because I thought it would be a perfect thing. But anyway, I thought it was be a perfect thing. But anyway, was that I thought it was a thing we could do together. And I wanted something like that. And a decade into this thing, the fact that we still do it together is one of the most meaningful things to me. Colin, talk a little bit about how meaningful it is for you because you're still doing music pretty regularly here in Columbus. You've got a League Bowlers project. You do a bunch of different things. What's special about Watershed for you? I mean, having to think about this with the new record coming out, a couple of things have struck

me and it's hard to explain to people when I was trying to think of myself. Joe and I met in fourth grade and we met Herb in eighth grade and we met biggie who's our tour manager artwork guy who's been with us we wanted to sing but he didn't want to sing so like well you can be like our guy helps out we've all been together that whole time is that we were writing songs before i'd even like forget kiss the girl i never even held a girl's hand right i never so we were writing i mean that was like 10 years ago when that yeah i know it was i don't want to get that's one of the reasons for lame but i'm trying to think about like when we started like it's hard for even me to wrap around you try to describe you're in conventional terms like there's nothing conventional about watershed and we started that

young and we always practiced every night we've always played like it's never been for a second we weren't doing this it's like an assumed thing like we breathe oxygen like it's i realized that like we've never even broached the subject that we wouldn't go on under any circumstances. That's never come up. And I just, it's strange. And to think obviously that we carry through to this day and we've always been doing it. We haven't like stopped and like someone was a dentist for 10 years and got divorced and we came back together. If circumstances were different, we'd be doing it a lot more. I mean, life has forced us to slow down, but we would, left to our own devices, we would be doing a a lot more i mean right life has forced us to slow down but we would left

to our own devices we would be doing a lot more watershed um i was thinking about it too i wonder we started so young in a parallel to addiction you know how if you if you start partying too young it rewires your brain the wrong way yeah i think maybe we got addicted to rock and roll when we were 14 or 15 playing together and our brains are permanently attracted that dopamine of playing music together yeah you know because we still we were rehearsing last night and today, like I still get a huge kick out of playing and Biggie. And then I said the camaraderie of your friends being together. That's the main thing. Yeah. There's better musicians all over than all of us, but playing together and having that, like you have with Chris, that effortless,

everyone knows on such a fundamental level, we've been through so much together that you're just really yourself around everybody while you're being creative. We take it for granted, but I've been forced to think about, you know, yeah, why do we, this is odd. Together is the important thing. Like certain people I know who will play poker with anybody who wants to play poker or will play cards or golf with anybody who wants to play golf. There are certain things that I only want to do with my friends. I only want to play cards with people who are my friends. I only want to play golf with my friends. I only want to play

rock and roll with my friends. So I'm not just going to like play rock and roll to play rock and roll. I play rock and roll because I play with Colin. That's the thing that matters. Yeah. And we've always had fun and we thought this is how all bands were. And as we realized, like a lot of bands don't like each other. Whereas the gigs are fun, but being on the road and touring together, I was like, oh, you guys toured so much. I can't believe it. Like, it was fun. It was an adventure.

You're out with your friends. And it was kind of shocking for us to learn that probably 90% of bands don't see it that way. They're there to be successful. And if the shows aren't successful, they don't want to do it. Whereas we loved having an off day or, you know, the show wasn't successful. That didn't ruin our day because we were still hanging out. And it's still like that. The hanging out part is the most fun of all. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I fall where you do with it, Joe, which is the admirable side

of it, because you guys are doing it for the reason of just doing it, right? If you look at psychology, you know, a lot of behavioral psychologists will talk about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, right? An intrinsic motivation is something you do just to do it. And an extrinsic motivation is something that you're doing it to get something else. And you guys are at this juncture, not doing it to get something else, right? Joe, even in the book 10 years ago, you were sort of saying early on, I could justify this as paying our dues, right? In a way that's an investment in some future payoff. Never say never, right? But the odds are that you guys

aren't going to suddenly break through to, you know, commercial success. So you can almost say never. Commercial success. Right. So you're doing it just to do it. And I think that in life, it's good to have things like that. Yeah. It's good to have things that you do just because you want to do them. And I think extrinsic and intrinsic motivations are both valid. Sure. Either one can be fine. But I think in the long run, you're going to be happier if you can do the intrinsic one. Because you can't control the extrinsic, right? We cannot decide how any of our stuff is ever received

by anyone. We can't make people come to the shows. We can't force people to buy our records, right? So if we're counting on that, it's just not going to be a sustainable model. Whereas the intrinsic motivation, if we can find a way to make it satisfying for ourselves, that that's what we can control. And that's ultimately what matters. Yeah, I agree with you. I think both motivations are valid. And in most cases, we have a little of both, right? For me, this podcast, I talk about it a lot. Things got a little bit weirder when this became the way I made a living, right? Because now there are legitimate and important extrinsic motivations baked into it, right? Like we there are legitimate and important extrinsic motivations

baked into it, right? Like we need to get a certain number of listeners. You know, it's what pays for Chris and Nicole and I to make a living. And yet the more I can orient to the intrinsic doing it, cause I love it. The more I can reflect on that, the better the experience is. Right. Yeah, no. And I think we've been that way for a long time. And there's a lot of bands that have, you know, obviously done better than us that are out still playing shows. And I can say, you know, we've never been envious. That's a hard way to make a living too.

Like I'm happy. Watershed, okay, maybe we don't, you know, sell the records that a lot of bands did from where we came from. But the fact that we get to do things on our own terms, there's no pressure. It's a huge gift in its own right. We're not wrestling with it. Absolutely.

Like your album's good. It's like, yeah, because we don't have a deadline. No one's like Watershed's got to produce any numbers. So right away, there's no other hands. Like when you're at Epic Records and everyone wants to give you their input. And that is a gift in its own way. And, you know, I think we've always been wary of taking our music and you know having to do it to make a living because it's hard to do that it's hard to mix those worlds and we've never

done that some bands do it and they do very well doing that but we never we turn down shows and things like that they probably pay money that i don't know if we want to do that how did you guys make that transition because you guys were signed to epic records? You were on a major label. You were aiming at big success and you were really close in a lot of ways. The way we're describing this makes it sound like you guys are like completely unsuccessful at this point, right? And it's not true. Like, I mean, you guys did well, particularly here in Columbus, you have a, you had a rabid fan base. I mean, you guys did better than the vast majority of bands, right? But there was a point where you were close and then didn't get there. And I'm sure there must have been some

degree of disappointment there. How did you come back from that disappointment? Or how did you begin to rest the love of music away from what you were hoping it would turn into? There was definitely disappointment. I mean, my wife would tell you that for about a year, I slept on the floor of our bedroom because I was tossing and turning so much, I didn't want to keep her awake. There was definitely disappointment. Yeah, yeah. But looking back on it, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm really, really glad that happened because going through that challenge of being sort of like,

you know, getting signed by a major label is sort of like making the NBA or the NFL. And after you sort of get that dream and then lose the dream, that's where a lot of bands would quit. The fact that we didn't quit and we maintained our relationship despite that challenge and then got even better. I think our best work, I think almost everybody would agree that our best work happened after all of that. Part of it was stubbornness. Part of it was, okay, we'll show you and we'll show ourselves that we don't need this. There was a lot of disappointment, but I'm kind of glad it happened because we got better after that. We got better, I think, because of that. Yeah. To answer Joe's question, huge disappointment. Like I couldn't even listen to the radio

and my girlfriend at the time would be like, oh, you know, you're bummed out. It's like other jobs, maybe you get like benefits when you get dropped from Epix, right? You see yourself as tainted goods. You have, you know, you've worked this hard and now nobody takes your calls. You're not part of anything. But I think the trick for us to, A, we were really good friends and we went through it together and we just went out and played shows. Like we're not going to sit around town. And it was kind of depressing to go out and play these shows, but it was really good for us. We're just going to go play music together. And then, you know, we did have good influences seeing a guy like Willie Phoenix or guys like Happy and the RC Mob. They were huge talents,

way more talented than we ever were. And they were on labels and got dropped. So, you know, you don't want to be all full of yourself. And then, you know, I bring it up, but like Slim Dunlop, who was in the replacements, was a good friend to us. And we used to have talks. And at the time, I didn't understand. He would call me and ask what we were doing. And I'd be like, oh, you know, we're getting dropped and this and that. And he would have all these talks about, you know, you're going to get gifts all the time if you learn to appreciate them. It's all how you look at things. And he would always point out like the things, you know, you got. And like I always look at Epic Records, people will be like, oh, man, you guys were this close and you got dropped or they read Hitless Wonder and that's really sad.

I'm like, OK, that's one way to look at it. The other way to look at it would be like three friends in Biggie who don't even read music got to spend two years living in New York City, hanging around with Rick Rubin and Jim Steinman and ACDC, touring with the Smithereens. We're going to record albums and they're going to put them in. Every record store in the country is going to have your album and you're going to do this for two years. And then at the end of two years, you have to just come home. Like, have you won that on a game show? That sounds pretty good, right? Yeah, exactly.

Right? But it's seen as failure. Once your brain steps around, it's like, good, right? Exactly. Right. But it's seen as failure. Once your brain steps around, it's like, we're so lucky to even be in that position. And I truly feel that way. And we've had so many experiences. Once you see them, watershed experiences, all sorts of things that bands would love. And that was, some would say, even Tom Petty's always looking up the ladder to who's in front of them. And he said, I'm telling you guys, Slim used to say, look down the ladder every once in a while and look at all the bands that would love to be in your spot. And never forget that. You know, and this is someone you listen to.

Or if one person's singing your song, you wrote a song in a bed. I remember being somewhere like in Milwaukee where maybe the year before we played and there was 300 people and we were up and coming. And now we're playing on a Tuesday night and there's 30 people there. And we play the song Sad Drive. And there's some guy in the back I've never seen. Here we are. Career is not going anywhere. There's nobody here compared song Sad Drive and there's some guy in the back I've never seen. Here we are, career, it's not going anywhere. There's nobody here compared to last time. There's a guy singing your song.

That's a sign. You better appreciate that. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I really try to see all, let alone the gifts of friendship and health and creativity and all that stuff. There is feedback you're getting.

Now, if you want a brand new car every year, you're probably in the wrong business. But you will get your feedback, you know, and gifts, but you have to make sure you're aware of them. That's a really great sentiment. And it is really easy to spend all our time looking up the ladder. I've told this story before, but early on in the podcast, we went to LA and we interviewed a guy named Lewis Howes, who's got a podcast called School of Greatness. It's a huge podcast. Even then, and Lewis is from Delaware here.

So his studio was in his house. And I walked down the balcony and I'm looking down in the Hollywood Hills and I'm like, oh my God, like this is incredible. This guy has got it all right. Like, and then I just, for for some reason turner looked over my shoulder and right kind of right up behind him in a way we're like far more amazing houses and i just right in that one second i could look both directions and be like at any point in life that's your choice you can choose to be like look at what i have i've got an apartment in the

hollywood hills or i can choose to be looking up the hill i'm like well but at what I have. I've got an apartment in the Hollywood Hills, or I can choose to be looking up the hill and like, well, but I don't have that. You know, and that for me has certainly been one of my lifelong challenges is that stop always thinking there needs to be something more. Well, I don't want to get too far afield here. But the way capitalism often works is they put the more in front of you. It's like the Disneyfication of the world. Whatever level you are when you go to Disney, Disney makes it so you get just a peak of the next level up. And then if you get that access, fastback,

you get just a peak of the next level. You could have the private vest tour that gets you right on the rides. And so I think having the discipline to be happy where you are and look down, even though the next level up keeps getting teased, it takes a lot of determination. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly that is our economic system, right? There's always somebody trying to sell you something. And the way they do that is by basically making you feel like what you have is not good enough. It's preying on a, you know, very natural human desire. We are not creatures that are satisfied by nature because that's not a very good survival adaptation, right? A satisfied hunter gatherer isn't going to live real long,

right? So it's natural in us. And I think there are good parts of it. There is something good to me in the striving and the wanting, but there's also like outside a certain point, it becomes a very mentally self-destructive tendency. And I guess also I should mention, circle back to the music's at the center of all this. We kind of take it for granted, but if we hadn't kept making albums, we thought we're better. I don't know what would have happened. And I don't know if that's our hard work or we're just slow learners, but each record

we made after Epic Records just got better. So we always felt excited. We've got this album or this song. We've got this new song. That's just from working hard and creating together. But the music at the center of it does propel us, like even the new record. Yeah. We weren't excited about it.

We wouldn't have done it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or it kept going. And I think that sometimes I tend to forget about, you know, how much that's pushed us on to meeting guys like Tim Padelon and different people that have helped us along the way to like believe in us when maybe other people didn't. And once again, it comes kind of back to, you know, who you surround yourself with. And, you know, the people fall off very fast. When you get dropped

from Epic Records, like, you know, your agent drops you, your manager drops you, people don't take your calls anymore. And that's a reality of that world. But I will say that, like, the fact that we got a glimpse and we even got to be there for a little bit, it's not even fair. But the first thing everyone always says about Watershed is they're on Epic Records. Now we had, I think, way bigger creative highs and commercial highs after that. But in our society, the fact that you were on Epic Records, the label with Michael Jackson or whatever, you have a stamp of approval that we probably really don't deserve, but people will give us the time of day just because for two years we were in the major leagues allegedly yeah so it

cuts both ways so you have to if you're going to go up there and do that but we reap the benefits of having that experience too so so new record great record i think it's among your very best things and you guys are extraordinarily fired up for 50 year olds i will say that like i mean you guys i you can't be that fired up all the time, I'm certain. But holy mackerel, did you bring it on the record? You know, Joe, a song that I really love is, well, I love all of them, but Another Night in the Ruts, which has one of my favorite lines on the record, which is tailgating at an AA meeting. I'm a knight, knight in the ruts Not just a mountain of self-inflicted uppercuts

No one can wait to see you next time. We'll be right back. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. And I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart Series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love. So when I think about beauty, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love.

So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were, how we want to see ourselves and who we know ourselves to be and who we can be. It's a little bit of past, present and future all in one idea, soothing something from the past. And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It can be something that you love. All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like...

Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer.

And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman.

And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers.

So that's why we created The Big Take from Bloomberg Podcasts, to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this meme stock stuff is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC. Amanda Mull, who writes our Business Week buying power column. Very few companies who go viral are, like, totally prepared for what that means. And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter.

Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. What's the scene there? Well, I've been thinking a lot about addiction issues. You know, a lot of people have friends and acquaintances, maybe family members who have struggled in that way. And I think we're all getting to the age where you see certain people who, if they haven't kind of gotten their act together by now, it's really starting to become detrimental. And I have a few people, like more than two people I know who died recently from addiction problems. I've just been

thinking about that a lot. So there are some of those themes scattered throughout some of my songs on the new album. But I just thought a cool way to sort of get at the heart of what that is all about in the struggle is that somebody is going to the AA meeting, but they're just punk rock enough to be drinking in the parking lot before that. And it's a serious issue that I'm not trying to make light of in that line. But I just thought the idea of tailgating at an AA meeting of all the places you could be tailgating would be clever, interesting, maybe interesting is the word. It certainly caught my ear as a recovering alcoholic and addict for sure. And yeah,

talk about being grateful for having what you did with the record. And then Joe, even you're talking about being grateful for what you went through afterwards, like the way you process that and what that did to you as a person. You know, one of the things I'm grateful for with my addiction is I am a burn the house to the ground pretty fast kind of person, which is really good news because I had a chance to get sober at 24, right? And then I drank again, but I've been sober again 15 years. And I know a lot of people who are like two degree, you know, if you were to turn the destructive dial down, like two notches from me who are still going. And you're right. When you get to be this age, you know, the bills start coming due

for sure on that stuff. Yeah, no doubt. Agreed. So you guys have made this sound really positive in a lot of ways, and it is, but surely there's been a lot of challenges in this area. Has your friendship ever had a challenge, like a significant one? That's a really good question. Not really. I mean, obviously when you've been in a band, sitting next to a guy like a significant one that's a really good question not really i mean obviously when you've been in a band sitting next to a guy in a van for how many years we did all that and this and that it sounds weird but in my mind no not really i mean there's been some disagreements

but really not many and along with mike biggie i mean pretty much in our group if there's a consensus you go with the consensus yeah like if i run into too many headwinds, I'll just assume I'm wrong. Like Joe's really smart and Mike's really smart. So I think that generally speaking, we trust the friend group around you that if you're on an island, you're probably need to listen to them. Yeah. The great thing about being in a band is also the frustrating thing about being a band, which is that nobody gets their way 100% all the time. And so it's kind of nice to have other people who will sort of call you on your bull and say, you know, nope, nope, nope. You think you want that? You don't want that. Here's

what we're doing. And then of course we provide that same service for Colin and everybody else. So if one person was to get their way all the time, I'm not sure that would make the best art. So if one person was to get their way all the time, I'm not sure that would make the best art. I think art thrives in resistance, you know, just like you build muscle by having resistance. If everything was easy and everything was just Colin's baby, he always did everything he wanted. I'm not sure that would be the best for Colin. If I always got everything I wanted, that wouldn't be the best for me. So there's a little bit of tension baked into the cake. And I think that's the way it should be.

Yeah, for me. So there's a little bit of tension baked into the cake. And I think that's the way it should be. Yeah, for sure. Because funny, it was odd too, when Joe moved and started doing books, I had to start playing solo. So I put a solo band together and you're like, it's kind of fun. It's me. I can kind of do what I want. And then, you know, but then you miss the band, then you get back with a band and it's like, ah, these guys are driving me crazy. Like I want to have my own way, you know? Yeah. The band is always the strongest thing. And we, at a young age, were taken under the wing of Willie Phoenix, who's a local guy who's been around, who's a legend and all that stuff. But one of the things I think we did well is we're, like they say, like coachable. We're open to ideas.

We know we're not the best musicians. And somehow we were bright enough to realize when Willie Phoenix would produce us, we know we have to work together as a team. We have to take the sum of our parts and get better. We wanted to be like Cheap Trick, right? We're never going to be anywhere close to Robin Zander or Rick Nielsen. So what we've got to do is work together so we don't take it personally. We are trying to make the best record together.

And once again, that's another thing that comes naturally to Watershed, which I think for a lot of creative people, they never learn that. And I think we learned that at a pretty young age, that we're going to work together on this. And if we have a producer, we're going to listen to ideas and the best idea is going to win. And it's not personal. You know what I mean? So we've all taken our share of disappointments on songs or I like my solo or this or that. But somewhere along the way, we learned how to be a team, but we're also open to ideas, but we don't sell out. It's a hard thing to explain.

Yeah. I can listen to our records. It sounds like us. Even our first records sound like us. Like I was listening to the song Youth Is Confusion, right? We wrote this song when we were like 22 and I'm singing about how youth is confusion. And it still kind of holds up. You know what I mean?

I mean, it's like, it's interesting to go back. But having said that, when we're in a band situation with all of us together, it's truly a band and nobody gets to call the shots and we trust that process. And I think it's just like working creatively as you go through life. And I, hopefully that spills over into your friendships and your family members. Same thing. If Aaron and everyone looking at me, like, what are you thinking? I'll probably be like, you know what?

I'm probably wrong here. You know what I mean? I think I need to back up and reevaluate my position because I trust these guys' opinions and they're probably right. And that's, I think that's an important skill to have in life overall is knowing, especially nowadays, knowing when you're wrong. We're all wrong a lot. Just admit it. You're going to the next thing. And it's not like this is some, you know, friendship fantasy land. We definitely have disagreements and things like that.

But usually Herb or Mike Biggie McDermott or somebody will come in and say, you know what? I've heard both of you and Colin's right or Joe's right. And then the good thing is we have short memories. So, okay, cool. Colin won this battle. I'll get you next time. Yeah. You've got a line from Hitless Wonder that I loved then as I was going back through it.

I loved it. You said arguing with Colin is like playing tennis with a goat. He doesn't volley. He eats the fucking ball. So you may be overestimating your ability to know that you're wrong. I don't know. I'll push pretty hard with random ideas, but I'll push right up to the point. And then as soon as I'm like, ah, you're right. You can't just, nah, you're right. You won me over. I'd be a horrible jury. I would just, you just went, I'm like, you know, but you just said, I go, you know what? Now I thought about it. Totally. And I will just switch. Ping pong back and forth based on

prosecutor argues. I'm like, they're right. Defense argues. I'd be, well, I see that point, you know? I would probably be bad jury, probably decent judge though. I think that's a good quality in a judge, right? You know? Yeah. You would think I'm just arguing to the end of the earth and maybe I'm not like this and I'll go right there and you guys, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, fine. Yeah. Bridge is gone. And that's it. Like I said, I made my case and I lost. Yeah. That's a really useful life skill. And I do think Watershed, like what you do together is better. Like you've done great solo work. I love some of your solo work. Some of your songs that you've written in your solo work are some

of my favorite songs you've ever written. Thanks. And you guys together, there's something different, you know? Yeah. We're band guys. guys yeah we like being in our band we like playing together and we like the ruckus we like to sound yeah like like yesterday plugging in my marshall i just turned to like doesn't that sound great yeah and joe's like it did it's the same i use one pedal it's the same setup i've had since i was 20 and i still love it i'm like this sounds great that's that intrinsic musical thing of humans getting together and, you know, making noise together that you can't, you can't simulate that on your own. Yeah. I was never musically successful like you guys, even, even probably close, but yet I

nurtured this idea that I would be at some point. And there was a point where I sort of gave that up, right? I just was like, come on, let's be realistic. Like, you know, if you guys aren't as good as Cheap Trick, like I'm not even, you know, I'm not even like as good as you guys. And so the reason I'm saying that is because what you just said was my way back because I had turned to be extrinsically motivated. And the way I found my way back was just remembering how good an E chord through an amp sounded. And then when a drummer or bass player would drop in on it, like just that moment was like my way back of like, yes, that is what I love.

You know, that was the thing that brought this all to life to me. Yeah. And we get to do it and play songs and it's fun. Yeah. And I still love that sound of a just big, loud guitar chord coming through a Marshall half stack. And I think you can hear that in the production on our new record. Going into the recording of this album, we said we want to make an unapologetically guitar heavy record.

And partially because if you listen to the radio right now, guitar as sort of the predominant instrument of pop music is over, right? The MacBook is now the predominant, I guess. Yeah. And even if a stringed instrument is involved, it's like a ukulele, right? Or a neutered guitar. Yeah. One of the album titles we considered for this record was Too Late to Be Cool. We wanted to make a consciously uncool album, which is just an album that sounded like this. Just the stuff you'd want to play for your friends. And that's always the goal, really.

You're just trying to make records you can put on for your buddies. Eric, we share a big love of same band replacements. I want to put this album on and feel like good about it and not like, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, this one, this one delivers for sure. You know, Colin, the song on the record that I thought of for this conversation was Sensational Things. And it's a song about getting back kind of what we're talking about here, right? It's getting back to what you love. But I'm curious about that idea of like still aiming for sensational things. I went home without a waitress The way that I always do

And I was getting too old to keep panning for gold It was high time to start stopping soon So I said my goodbyes and drove home through the night To bring you coffee as you left for work. You didn't hide your surprise, you avoided my eyes. You couldn't escape my words. You better get in here. We're going out on the town.

You better get in here. I'll save the spot right next to me. You better get in here. We used to staying out, Thinking about making out tonight. We're staying out late. Because I'm back. I'm back where I belong. It's been a long time coming, but I'm back.

I'm back and you are still chasing sensational things. We were so young. What did we know? We're just kids with two heads on one pillow. We were so old. All that we knew, like everything good, is over too soon. Hey, y'all.

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That's a song that I would have guessed wouldn't have been on a Watershed album because we have a lot of extra songs and some of them have my solo stuff and whatever. But once we had the rest of the album kind of together, we kind of went back and revisited that song because it strikes a little too close to home. You know what I mean?

It's about guys in a band and for Watershed. But I mean, at this point, the whole Sensational Things is just playing together. I mean, that song is just being on a stage and still playing, still being able to do that. And that's something when you talk about people falling apart. We're playing this weekend and we're going to play two separate sets. And maybe a year ago, this hit me. I was like, you know, you don't know. And I'm not trying to be morbid, but you really don't know at this point when your last gig's gonna be yeah

totally i got like a spot on my phone is that melano they're gonna you know is my foot gonna get amputated you never know what could happen in your life yeah so i think just being up there and playing you kind of push through we all hit that kind of middle age thing where you're doing it and you're doing it and you're trying but but are you really? And I think somewhere in the last year, I hit that realization like, you need to up your game. Let's really get out there and play more. And when we do it, let's really commit to being the best we can be, you know, within reason.

It's not going to be Bruce Springsteen. And that's the other thing. I think you have to give yourself grace as you get older because a lot of people don't want to do it or they compare themselves to when they were doing it every... Yeah, of course, when you're playing all the the time maybe you're going to be a little better this or that but if you can still get up there and play and feel good about it that's a pretty sensational feeling at this point and once again feeling good about your how you're singing about how you're performing it's definitely less about the external at this point for obvious reasons

so i think just being on that stage, Joe would agree with this, just getting this album in our hands, that's an unbelievable accomplishment, just to have a vinyl to hold. If that's all we did, that'd be great. Just to play it in that room. I mean, I'm like, you sit there and look at it,

like it was so much work to get this album done. It took so many twists and turns. So I guess that's what Sensational Things is about. And of course, you know, you always want the chick to like you. Right, right. It's rock and roll. I mean, yeah, yeahational Things is about. And of course, you know, you always want the chick to like you. Right. You know, it's rock and roll. I mean, yeah, yeah.

She's pretty. Right. There's no one there, but she's digging you. And that's all you need. Right. I think so. So. Yeah.

That recognition that there is going to be a last time for things and you may not know it is a really you know it's not morbid it's a deep philosophical reckoning that many great thinkers have spent time doing you know the stoics thinking about this could be the last time i mean you just don't know you know it may not be your last time but it may be your last time with joe you know or it may i mean like again i hope you guys are doing this 20 years from now, but we just don't know. There's so many moving parts in a band and all the things that make it great.

But if one wheel comes off, we would suffer. I mean, we have a team and it's all together. So we feel very, anytime we can get through, we feel very fortunate. Not only is it not morbid, I think it's the key to happiness. I mean, to me, knowing that you're going to die one day and that everybody that you love is going to die means that you're screwed coming out of the gate.

Because you're screwed coming out of the gate, the only rational response, I think, or at least the only cool punk rock response is joy and happiness. Because it's boring to be like, I'm screwed coming out of the gate, so I'm going to be miserable about it, right? Yeah. In the face of certain death, all right, let's get everything we can out of this life and let's be as happy and as joyful as we can. I mean, to me, that's the key or one of them. Yeah. I mean, it's one of the things that drew me to Buddhism so early on was just this idea of right up front, like there's a lot of difficulty and pain in life, right? That just felt so good

to hear like somebody saying like front and center, what's really obvious to me. And you're going to get sick. You're going to get old. You're going to die. You don't know when that is. So what do you do in response to that? Like hooked me right away because I was like, well, this feels like somebody's talking for

real here about like what seems to me to be real and true. Yeah. And I think doing the best as you get older too, it's so important to give yourself some grace. I'm going to do the best I can do. And that's still pretty good because perfection can stop you. Totally. Thinking you're not as good as, you know, or this, that, or, and I think that you have

to give yourself a little wiggle room to be creative and maybe it's not always going to work out and still see the upside of that, that the upside and even trying that's the upside, the upside that we're even attempting to play to completely sets this weekend, which is ridiculous, right? Even if we don't nail every song, there's, there's value in putting the effort forth and not taking yourself super serious that everything's going to, cause things aren't going to be perfect. Right. And if you start getting that mindset, it can cripple you down the home stretch. Yeah. Because, you know, we're not as fast.

We're not as good looking. We're not, all these things are not there, but you can still. Be for yourself, pal. Joe's looking great. Joe, you're aging well. Thanks, man. Colin and I are having some trouble, but yeah. We're hanging in there, you know, but, and I think that's, you know, there's a lot of

musicians like just put their guitars away in the closet. Don't ever want to do it again. Yeah. Because in their mind, they're competing with what they used to be. Yeah. And that's not really the purpose. The purpose is to do the best you can in the moment. And that's going to move.

Once you're comfortable, that's not a bad thing. You know? Right. And I think we're better now. We're more efficient. There's a lot of things we do better now than we ever did younger. Yeah. Because you're forced to be smarter about how you use your time.

You don't have all that energy to waste. Yeah. You know? Yep. You know, the reason I wanted to have this conversation is I just, I love talking to you guys. I mean, Joe, you were one of our very first guests and I was reflecting also, Colin, that I think you are my oldest friend. Like you and I played little league baseball together. And like, I think I've been friends with you longer than anybody else. It's a pretty long time. We didn't win one game. Remember that? That'll bond you. That set you up for Watershed perfectly, being on a baseball,

little league baseball team that didn't win a single game. Not once. All year. I probably wasn't even close. I don't even think there were any like, you know, squeakers. I still see Randy Klinger on that mound, bringing that heater. I think he was at the bench like, we're not going to hit this guy. Nobody wanted to face Klinger back in the day. Wild lefty, right? Yeah. Terrible. Hi everyone. One of the things that I know many of you struggle with is anxiety. And very recently I shared some tips on managing anxiety in our newsletter. Specifically, I shared a practice on clarifying your values. In the practice, you write down one or two of your core values and then identify one action step that aligns with them. I find that taking one positive action towards things that matter to me

really helps reduce anxiety. Also, I have a reflection question. What positive experiences have you had today that you could focus on instead of your anxiety? Every Wednesday, I send out a newsletter called A Weekly Bite of Wisdom for a Wiser, Happier You. And in it, I give tips and reflections like you just got. And it's an opportunity for you to pause, reflect, and practice. It's a way to stay focused on what's important and meaningful to you. Each month, we focus on a theme. This month's theme is anxiety. And next month, we'll be focusing on acceptance. To sign up for these bits of weekly wisdom, go to goodwolf.me slash newsletter.

Once again, with Watershed, I try to talk about the banning conventional terms. I mean, it's hard to quantify. When you know someone that that young and we've known you a long time, you can't go back and replace that. And as we know, as you get older too, there'll be friends from high school that maybe you weren't as close with, but there's always that bond because you came up through the ranks together. Yeah. You know, you and I sat on a bench all summer on a baseball team that didn't win one game. I don't know what that means, but it it meant something we spent a lot of time losing yeah together yeah a lot a lot of time yeah you know and uh so and so that's in our collectiveness and obviously with watershed you know we have so many so many memories and i know when dave maska joined the band when herb left because after you know we did the star vehicle things

weren't going well we toured with the insane clown posse that went horribly it was not good herb decided he wanted to be in the band it was kind of great though it was great but i would quit too i can see why smart people should quit so herb an original member left he wanted he was tired of being in a band it was devastating but it was right we we didn't have a fight and we ended up joining with dave masca who was once again another door opens right it's right the door opens up we find this other guy who comes in who was, took over for this next chapter of the band. But I remember he would be like, well, what do we practice? Like, oh, like every night, like for like a gig? Like, no, what do you mean?

Like, you guys just practice every night? Yeah, we just work on songs every night. Like, we didn't just sort of play in a band together. It was like our whole, like when Joe left, I've never really recovered from how much time I would spend. It was like, we would rehearse all the time and it was always working on songs. And then, so I don't even appreciate how much time we'd spent together. And even now when my wife will be like, she's a counselor and you know, I can be, my communication style is not always great. I'm listener but i'm like i'm like this isn't fair you understand i spent a lot of my life in a van like the only way you could be heard

was like to just speak over somebody so i kind of learned that it's kind of like if you're in a family where everyone's fighting for leftovers my communication style is like challenging everybody or coming back and i'm like i can't be blamed for this this is this is the environment i grew up in because i remember dave like, this is what you guys do? I'm like, yeah, we just get together and work on songs. You know, most bands just rehearse for the gig and then they don't rehearse. And we're like, oh, they do? We didn't know.

We've never been in another band. Yeah. We literally have never played in another band outside of this. So we only know this one way. Yeah. And then I've come to realize it's not normal. How long ago did you leave Columbus, Joe? Let's see.

I think it was 17 years ago. Yeah. I graduated with my master's degree in creative writing and I took a job teaching college and I'm the jerk who left the rest of the guys. We were going to be so big too, man. Yeah. Is that what did it? We'd have a mansion out in Hollywood. Is that what did it? No. But it must've been really hard though for you. It was hard for everybody, but you know, it was time. Time to try something else. Joe covers it in the book very well, but it's a fine line. You don't want to be the guy who's hanging on to past dreams, rummaging through the dumpster, looking for your old trophies. We've never been that. Yeah. Yeah. So you have to grow up and say, Hey, we're just gonna

have to try a different path. And it made us all the better for it. I've often wondered, like, what if we had had just like one kind of marginal hit, right? Now we're doing like summer festivals where we make some money, like that doesn't appeal to me. It sounds like we sound delusional and crazy, but Joe's right. Like we probably got the exact amount of success we deserve to that young age. So later when success came on different levels, we were way more mature and handled it. But it got us out of that cycle because just a little bit of success and it could be, you're out there throwing the bill with semi-sonic and tonic and, you know, nothing against those bands, but like that can become your life. And I love the life that I've created. And I think Joe likes his and that, you know,

Joe had to go do his own thing and we all had to, you know, move on in our own way. So it's been a huge gift that Joe could break the cycle and get out of here. That's awfully generous of you to say. For me, leaving Columbus, leaving my friends and trying to go, you know, be a college teacher and be a writer, it was a real challenge, particularly because you move in a new town where like nobody's ever heard of me or Watershed and I'm hanging out with all these people and they would start talking about music and I kind of, oh, I'm in a band. Oh, you used to be in a band. Oh, no, I'm actually still in a band. And I kind of have to explain everything from square one. That was a challenge because at least, you know, in Columbus, it's kind of cushy because

some people of a certain age at least have heard of Watershed and they'll be like, oh, cool, you're in that band. And so I kind of get to start at five. These other towns, I'm starting at zero all the time, but that was actually good for me. It was good for me to be able to sort of build an identity that wasn't completely based upon, you know, my identity is based upon music, but to kind of redefine myself in new locations with new people, I think was a good challenge for me. Right. And your guys' identity, there's clearly an identity of music because you continue to make music and you love music and all of that. And there are other aspects of your identity, right, Joe? I mean, you're a writer. As I understand it, you have a novel that's

completed that you're shopping around at this point? After Hitless Wonder, which was my first book, I wrote and published three other nonfiction books. So I've got four nonfiction books and I just finished a novel right now that my agent is kind of shopping around. So hopefully that will bode well. And, you know, when I was younger, I used to think that hyper focus on one goal, and of course, music in this case, was the way not to be a sellout, was the key to happiness, hyper-focus. But then as I got a little bit older and I went to school for creative writing, I was like, wait a minute, just like in finance, the way they talk about

diversifying your portfolio, I think you need to diversify your portfolio of happiness. Because if you only find happiness in one thing and then that thing isn't going so well, then you're by definition miserable. So I was like, you know what, if I can sort of get happiness from music and from teaching and from writing and from being in a marriage and then later from having kids, I have so many different ways to find happiness. And that's not selling out. That's just finding a way to live. So that's been a good lesson for me. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I mean, we're all parents and you learn a lot through your kids too. Like I remember like watching my son playing sports and play that, like the fact that when

basketball season ended, he would start baseball. And I think like, it's always good. You know, you learn watching your kids, right? How you want them to have multiple interests. Cause you know, it's scary to have everything tied up in one spot, like Joe said. And there's so many things you can be interested in. And it just gives you more, like a relationship, right? The more you build on your own, the more you can bring back. You know, you're getting stuck in a cycle like we were. I mean, not that we couldn't always do it, but it's good to go find things on your own

and bring that back to the partnership. Yeah, you don't want to have all your eggs in one basket as as someone smart said someone yeah i wonder who originally did say that right i mean that's you know a chicken farmer we can assume he was in the agriculture industry yes speaking of your kids forbes sent me last night a spotify shit that's where we listen to music i know as musicians we, we're harming the world. People can get music wherever they want to get it. Anyway, he sent me your song, Dad Can't Help You Now. It's the last game of the season.

You're standing out on the mound. Bases loaded, the score is tied, and the batter has a full count. And you're staring in at your catcher. And I've never been more proud. But my heart shakes, buddy, because dad can't help you now. Heart shakes, buddy, cause dad can't help you now. Oh, trade every kiss I ever got to get you one more strike. I volunteer to paint the Eiffel Tower for a lazy fly ball to ride.

Now remember that it's just a game, but don't forget to cover home. You're not alone out there. dad can't help you now god that's a good song man it every time it gets me listeners you should in addition to the watershed stuff you should check out that song in particular. We'll put a link in the show notes to it like we do everything else. You mentioned it's a guitar-heavy record, and it made me think of another part of Hitless Wonder that I want, which is how Colin got you to be the bass player. Share that. I mean, basically, this whole scheme has been Colin's idea from the very beginning. You know, we were in middle school and Colin was like, yeah, I've already got this Gibson Melody Maker guitar. My mom already took me up to Cleveland to see Kiss and we're going to form

a band. And I was like, all right, cool. And that really, really came to a front after we went and saw Cheap Trick at the Ohio Center playing with Crocus and Saxon, I remember. We took the Coda bus, number two Coda bus from Worthington down to the Ohio Center to watch that Cheap Trick gig and came back. That bus still runs. Oh, it's a great bus. On the bus ride home from that gig, Colin said, all right, you know, seriously, we're going to form a band now. And I was like, sweet, this will be awesome. Like, my dad has an acoustic Martin guitar. I'll be one guitar and you be the other guitar. And Colin's like, wait, no, no, no. I'm the guitar.

We need a bass player. And I'm like, what? I'm not even sure I knew what bass was really. He's like, you're going to be the bass player. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah, the line, I'm going to read this from Hitless Wonder because it's great. Any schmuck can play the guitar, Colin said. hitless wonder because it's great any schmuck can play the guitar colin said then he flashed the same smile as dad surely used when selling his line of cedar hangers and shoe trees to department

stores you get to play the bass salesmanship runs in the gallow family yeah and uh colin sold me on the idea and he yeah he was right yeah gotta get that bass player locked down early. Yeah, yeah. I tried with my son to see if I could turn him into a drummer. I was like, drummers are so hard to find. Maybe I'll just grow one. But it didn't work. It didn't work. Well, I think that is a great place to wrap up.

I'm really excited to see you guys play this weekend. We'll have links in the show notes to where people can find your music. And thanks for being here. It's been a real fun one for me. Oh, thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thanks so much, Eric. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits.

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