The One You Feed - A Message of Hope through Addiction and Recovery with Macklemore

Episode Date: September 12, 2023

In this episode, Macklemore shares his journey with addiction and the added challenges of relapsing. Through his music and in this conversation, he expresses the value of any progress in recovery, starting over, and the importance of being honest with yourself and others by seeking support in recovery. In this episode, you’ll be able to: Understand more deeply the struggles and challenges of addiction Grasp the power of being honest with yourself and others about your addiction Realize the importance of self-care practices in sobriety Understand the significance of having support in a recovery community Tap into the vast potential for transformation and growth in recovery To learn more, click here!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The minute that you call somebody and you explain what's going on, you hear the insanity because you can't hear it in your own head. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.

Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor,

what's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to really know really.com and register to win $500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign. Jason bobblehead. The really know really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us.

Our guest on this episode is Benjamin Haggerty, better known by his stage name, Macklemore. He's a Grammy-winning American rapper, singer, and songwriter. A native of Seattle, Washington, he started his career in 2000 as an independent artist and released three works. He then rose to international success when he collaborated with producer Ryan Lewis as the duo Macklemore and Ryan Lewis. On this episode, Eric and Ben discuss his music and his journey with sobriety. Hi Ben slash Macklemore. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I'm really excited to have you on. Your music has meant a lot to me for two specific reasons that I just wanted to share real quick. The first is that I discovered you

through my boys when they were younger. And I always love it when there is music that we both really love because it's a place to connect with children. It can be hard sometimes to connect with particularly teenage kids. So that's been a real gift to us. And then secondly, as a recovering alcoholic and addict, your music has meant a lot to me in that way also. So thank you. That's awesome. I appreciate that. We'll talk about the music in a minute, but let's start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with her grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf,

which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second. They look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Yeah, I love that parable. It's so true. What does it mean to me? For me, there's a very clear cut polarity, a duality with the disease of addiction. So I have very stark contrast. My good wolf and bad wolf are in high definition, crystal clear, but you can't just jump from one to another. There's a slow process and it's insidious, just like the disease of addiction where you think that you're doing

good and then you kind of start to fall off and self-will kind of kicks in and you're all of a sudden running the show a little bit more and then the bad wolf is right there waiting. And I think that my entire life, I've been like a pendulum between the good wolf and the bad wolf. And it's kind of a scary thing to have a really loud bad wolf. I think that a lot of people probably live with a bad wolf that doesn't go on self-sabotaging, self-destructive, super selfish, life-threatening missions to find relief, to change the way that one person feels. And that's how my bad wolf kind of lives is all of a sudden I don't like who I am. I want to change it. I feel shame. I act out when that happens. Then I do another action that's also shameful. And all of a sudden there's

these layers of shame. Bad wolf grows bigger. It's like, feed me, feed me, feed me. And that fear, that self-centeredness, that disease becomes louder and louder and louder until it swallows me and it inevitably wins. And I think that that good wolf is service. I think that it's being clean, sober for me. That good wolf is thinking about others, is before myself, getting in a routine, putting my kids before anything else. And ultimately knowing that I have a purpose here and that there's things that align me with that purpose and there's things that take me away from it. Yeah. I've joked that, you know, at one point it wasn't so much, I didn't even feel like I was feeding the bad wolf anymore so much as it was just eating me, you know, it just felt like it was just a monster that was devouring me.

Now, of course I fed it. I always feed it to get to that point. And I love that idea of sort of the slide from being in a good place and ending up in a bad place. Your song, Starting Over, meant a lot to me because I got sober off heroin and I stayed sober eight years. And then I sort of drifted away and ended up drinking and smoking pot. And my bottom wasn't the same. Everything was fine, except inside I knew I was dying. But it was a process. I can look at it now and see it very clearly where it just gradually happened until it was like the next logical step was to pick up a drink. I know. It happens. see it, hope that no one is looking, that no one recognizes that failure under that hoodie, it's posted in the back, but my hands cross shook, and if they call on me, I'm passing,

if they talk to me, I'm booking up that door, but before I can make it, somebody stops me and says, are you Macklemore, maybe this isn't the place or time, I just wanted to say that, if it wasn't for other side, I wouldn't have made it, I just look down at the ground and say thank thank you She tells me she has nine months and that she's so grateful Tears in her eyes, looking like she's gonna cry Fuck, I barely got 48 hours Treated like I'm some wise monk I wanna tell her I relapsed, but I can't I just shake her hand and tell her congrats Get back to my car, and I think I'm tripping, yeah

Cause God, the other side side that pen was in my hand I'm just a flawed man man I fucked up like so many others I just never thought I would I never thought I would didn't pick up the book doing it by myself didn't turn out that good if I can be an example of getting sober then I can be an example of starting over if I can be an example of getting sober then I can be an example of starting over If I can be an example of getting sober Then I can be an example of starting over You know, I'm glad that you resonated with that song. And it's an interesting thing, too.

And you said, you know, eight years. And one of the things that I have been wrestling with in recovery is this idea of time. Yeah. And does it actually serve us? And it's an open-ended question. I don't necessarily have an answer, but I do think that there's pros and cons because I think that people can hold on to their time. You know, like I had eight years and for one be like, oh, well, I've lost this. You know, I've lost eight years when in actuality you had eight years of recovery. You were getting off dope. Like, that's a miracle in itself.

And sure, you might have slid back into, you know, into alcohol, thinking that you could maybe do some moderate drinking or drink like a normal person. And then, well, I need to smoke weed now because I hate myself. Let me throw some more on top. You know, whatever it was, I know the story very well. I've lived it. But this idea, I think there's so much shame built into relapsing, right? Where it's like, we've failed. We had it. We had it figured out. Everyone was proud of us in our life. We had a recovery community. We were able to say,

I have this amount of time. And then we go back out for whatever reason. And I think that a lot of people, you have today. Whenever anybody asks me like, how much clean time do I have or what my birthday is or whatever I have today, that's my answer every single time. For one, I don't want to misrepresent, you know, the rooms of recovery, you know, with the anonymity piece, but because it's always my own doing, it's never the fault of any 12 step program. It's always me not working the 12-step program. But then of course you have the flip side of it where it's like, it's really important to celebrate these milestones. But I think that the milestone for me really comes in how am I living every day? The prayer and meditation, like coming back, have I harmed anybody today? Where am I

showing up for other people? Am I of service? Am I tapped with my sponsor? And those are the things that I really find, you know, I can have two weeks and be more connected than I am with like five years. It just depends on where you're at that day. Yeah. I mean, I agree a hundred percent. I get the point of long-term abstinence because it's in long-term abstinence that the obsession leaves. Thank God, right? Because that's one of the worst parts of the whole thing. But it is this, you're either 100% successful or you completely fail. And we don't measure most of life that way, right? You wouldn't get better at much of anything if that was the measuring stick, if there wasn't

a way of getting better along the way. I had a client I worked with for a while and she came up with a great idea and she just put a marble in a jar every day that she was sober and continuous sobriety was difficult for her. But we were able to look at that over three years and be like, that is a huge, huge marble jar, right? Like there's a lot of recovery. There's a lot of sobriety. There's a lot of really positive and good action built in there that if she was measuring it only on continuous sobriety, she would think she's a lot of recovery. There's a lot of sobriety. There's a lot of really positive and good action built in there that if she was measuring it only on continuous sobriety, she would think she's a failure. Yes. I love that.

I love that idea. That's beautiful. Yeah. So yeah, starting over was really great. And I love that line. If I can be an example of getting sober, I can be an example of starting over. And that became really powerful for me about like, Hey, that's the person I can be in recovery. Now the person who did have this amount of time and then lost it and found a way

back. And I've never measured sobriety again in the same way. Like I don't pay attention to really generally, I don't celebrate a birthday. If it wasn't Valentine's day, I don't know if I'd know what day it was. Right. Like it just happened to be that day, but I've not gotten coins because I just felt like I had to abandon that for a while because otherwise it was always this, I used to be eight years sober, but now I'm only three. And am I a bad, you know? And, and as you said so eloquently, the shame is the engine that drives this whole disease to a certain extent, right? We feel bad about who we are, so we use, we use, so we feel worse about who we are and down the ride we go. That's exactly it. That makes so much sense with the eight years and then getting,

it's funny you said three, because in my head I'm like three. And relapse has been a part of my story. So maybe if I had 14 continuous years of being clean, I would be like, no, time, time is important. But we've lost so many people in the rooms who literally couldn't get over that one thing that they once had. And as addicts, we beat ourselves up enough, particularly when you get a head full of AA or NA or whatever A it is. Once you do that, the relapses are never fun. This is not some like vacation. This is like a self-medicated, like let me just try to maintain and not kill myself.

And then eventually you feel like killing yourself. And the whole thing is like you said, it's just the downward spiral of into the abyss and no one needs that. Yeah, I mean, in Other Side, you've got some lines in there. I think that was the song probably that put you on the map as far as recovery. And it's just this idea of looking in the mirror, like I can't believe what I've become, you know, selling our dreams

and our potential to escape through the buzz. I mean, it's just becomes amazing how something takes over so completely. Yeah. You know, that record took over completely. You know, there's been like a handful, maybe two hands, in the 25 years that I've been writing music where I literally feel like I'm not even controlling the pen. Yeah. I'm a conduit. I don't know.

It's coming from somewhere else. You know, the universe is at work, and I'm literally just like a shell to just like transcribe. I seen cocaine bring out the demons inside, cheating and lying Friendship ceased, no peace in the mind, stealing to take anything to fix the pieces inside Broken, hopeless, headed nowhere, only motivation for what the dealer's supplying That rush, that drug, that dope, those pills, that crumb, that roach Thinking I won't ever do that, not that drug, growing up, nobody ever does Until you're stuck, looking in the mirror like I can't believe what I become swore I was gonna be someone and growing up everyone always does we sell our dreams and our potential to escape through that buzz just keep me up keep me up Hollywood here

we come oh girl this boat is sinking there's no sea left for me and how the sky gets heavy when you are underneath it oh i want to sail away from here and god And God, He Really No Really podcast, I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too?

Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening?

Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For me, and it was really the first time that I had had any sort of recovery.

You know, I'd put together some months here and there. I'd be abstinent. I'd be like, all right, I'm going to cut this out. And I'd done that for, you know, a decade. It didn't work. But it was the first time I had gotten into rehab. And I started working with Ryan. And I remember being in his basement and just putting on that Red Hot Chili Peppers

bassline loop. We didn't even have drums yet. And just literally just loop that up, loop that part up. And I just, in probably, I want to say 20 minutes, I don't think it was longer, wrote that entire record. It was that turning point where I was like, at this point, no one had really been honest about being in recovery or being sober. This was 14 years ago or 15, maybe. 15, I think. I had to come to that moment of like,

well, now I'm doing this. I've always been really honest in my music. And this is before I had much of a fan base at all. I was an underground rapper, but it was that moment of like, I'm going to tell the truth. And I get that if it's not popular, if it puts me in a box or whatever it is for my 2,000 fans I have out there, it doesn't matter. I'm going to tell the truth. And what I immediately saw once that record came out was people coming to the shows just for that song. And it was like, 10 people, 15 people, 20 people. But there was groups of people in recovery that were literally like, they might have liked my other music too, but they had heard Other Side. And that was the reason why they came and they identified with it. And it was like that kind of glimpse into, yo, if I'm honest, like truly honest about who I am,

about my shortcomings, about my character defects, if I can tell that on a record, just as much as I can like, you know, pop my collar, I can flex, or I can showcase this skillset or whatever. If I can really be honest and authentic, there are people out there that will resonate with it. And Other Side was the beginning of that for me. And still to date, probably the most important record that I've ever written, along with maybe Same Love, but it's up there. Every time I hear the chorus of that song, it gives me chills still today. I mean, and I've listened to it countless times. It's just haunting and beautiful. And there's so much emotion in it. I can see how it might've felt like that flowed through you. Cause it does feel so

pure in that way. Like it has that mystery to it that great art has where you're like, well, I don't quite know where that came from. Yeah. So one of the things I've heard you talk about, and I just wanted to go into a little bit, it's inherent in a lot of the music, but it's this idea of how torn apart it feels to be wanting to use and knowing you shouldn't use. I mean, I often think that I stay sober partially because I never, ever want to feel that ripped apart inside. Right. Because you've got this one voice that's screaming, use, and you've got another voice that's screaming, for God's sake, don't. Your children, your family, your everything.

Right. It is an internal civil war that feels worse than maybe anything I know of. Yeah, it is. It's horrible. Again, it's so insidious because it doesn't always come to me like that. One of those versions is when you're like, I'm in so much pain. I'm clean, I'm sober, but I'm in so much pain. I don't know how to handle this that I just want to escape. And I think that that is probably the most challenging part of this whole thing. Because if you're in that much pain and you want to change the way that you feel, chances are you've been in some self-will. Because nowadays, when I'm tapped in spiritually, and I'm talking about when I'm working a program, when I'm doing meditation,

when I'm doing yoga, when I'm of service, when I'm living with integrity, when I'm being rigorously honest, I've gone through some shit and not wanted to get high. I really have some shit. It's more for me, it's when life is just kind of like, maybe I'm doing half those things. Maybe I'm doing a quarter of those things. Maybe I'm doing an eighth of whatever I just mentioned that keeps me healthy. And all of a sudden I'm doing a quarter of those things. Maybe I'm doing like an eighth of whatever I just mentioned that keeps me healthy. And all of a sudden I'm in an environment or I'm home from tour and I'm on the couch and I don't really want to go to a meeting. And that goes to a week of not going to meeting and whatever. And all of a sudden I'm like, getting high sounds fun.

That would make this better. And there's no insurance. There's no safety net. I haven't been plugging into that outlet, that conduit of my higher power. So all of a sudden, I'm just on self-will. And I'm not thinking. I'm not going back to that last relapse where I was in so much pain, where I was at that rock bottom, where I didn't know if my wife was going to leave or if my career was going

to be it. And I'm crying. And I felt that fucking pain. I'm not even going back there. I'm not playing that tape. I'm just thinking about, man, it could be fun to change the way that I feel right now. And that's the dangerous spot. They're both really dangerous. One is because you're hanging on and you're in pain. The other one is like the disease has already been working. It has been at work. It's been wearing you down for days, weeks, months, who knows how long, years. And the disease is like, yes, we have made changing the way that this person feels appealing in their head. And now they're spinning. And now they're like, well, I could just do that.

That wasn't my drug of choice. It's Saturday. By Monday, I'll stop. I have to stop Monday. All the things that we tell ourselves, or at least I tell myself when that disease is active. That feeling torn apart is almost always after I have started using where the obsession is now here. And now I have the clarity of like, holy shit, what have I done? Right? Because you're right, it sneaks up on you in the first case, because you're like, well, maybe it's not that bad of an idea. You know, it's kind of after that, because now all of a sudden, I have the obsession. And I have the clarity of all the pain that it's causing me and the people around me. And that to me is that kind of part where I'm like, Oh, a craving is one thing or an occasional thought about I'm in pain and I want to get high. That's a different thing, but it's that obsession once you've already done it. Yeah. And you know, this is ruining everything. And yet I want to do it more than anything in the world. I mean, there's a line in a song on the new record about, you know, you're looking into your daughter's eyes and

at the same moment you're obsessing about a pill that's somewhere in the house. I mean, like that does not feel good. No, it's horrible. And you're so right. Because then, then you're in it. You know, the compulsion is there. The mental obsession is there. All bets are off. For me, I'm existing to get high. I can't get caught. So I have to be sneaky. I have to lie and I need more. And I'm so depressed and I don't really want to be here. And everyone kind of knows, but I'm good at hiding it. But all of a sudden people are just kind of like, what's up with him? You know? And the worst part is just what it's doing. It's like toxic inside. There's no God anymore. There's no spirituality. And I think that the trick is at that point, not the trick, but like the hardest part in that place is how do you find the willingness to start over

again? Yeah. Because the disease is like, dude, do not tell your sponsor. Do not tell your wife. Do not tell anybody. Hang on to this. You don't want to let people down. You're afraid of getting kicked out of the tribe. You don't want to go back to your home group and be like, guys, I did it again. They've already heard the story, whatever it is. When really, and I've gotten to this point, I'm like, I have, you know, if I'm lucky 40 more years on this earth, that is not a lot of time, not a lot of time. And I do not want to hold on to some false pride about holding on to this thing that I've done and be a secret. You know, it's like the cliche of we're as sick as our secrets. It's like, yeah, I need to get

fucking honest with the people I need to get honest to. That doesn't necessarily mean that I need to go on Instagram and announce what happened, but it does mean that I need to get honest with the core people in my life because those are the people that can help save my life. And that part, it's the surrender, right? That is such an important word, willingness and surrender. Am I willing to just surrender? Because what this is doing is not working. It's not working. And I fucking hate myself.

How can I get out of this place? Such a painful place to be. You know, relapse has been a part of your story. What do you think you've learned? Like, you know, let's just take the most recent time and we don't need to go into dates and when all of that, it's not even important. Right. But what do you think about the most recent time? Have you learned something that you feel like is helpful to carry forth in your sobriety? Or do you feel like the lessons you already know them and you're not living them? I'm kind of curious, like how do you take something positive out of it? You know, it's such a slippery slope of like what I say here, because, you know, you never

want to like have someone listening that's like on the verge and be like, well, he said that he learned something from his relapse. So like, I felt like I needed to go learn something. It's like, no, like the thing that I've learned is that like, I was in a lot of pain the last relapse and I never want to go back there. Yep. So if you have any clean time and you're thinking about using i'll just preface it with like hold on to that shit call your

sponsor go to a fucking meeting and like yeah and tap in with the people that you need to tap into and share your truth and tell people like the minute that you feel like you're even entertaining it call someone yeah and snitch on that disease. That is the thing. And the disease is going to tell you, don't call. Don't call anybody. Hold on to it. Keep that reservation tucked. But that is what I have learned time and time again. Because the minute that you call somebody and you explain what's going on, you hear the insanity because you can't hear it in your own head. It's a lot easier for the disease to manipulate because you are the disease. It's up here. I am this. So I can maneuver my way

around these thoughts and this knowledge that I've acquired throughout the last 15 years of experience and recovery and relapse. But when you feel that urge in any capacity, pick up the phone, listen to your own voice. You're going to hear it. Your sponsor doesn't even need to say anything. Yeah. Or somebody else in recovery doesn't even need to respond. You'll be three minutes in and be like, yep, this is a horrible idea.

This is a horrible idea. And I can almost guarantee you, you're going to feel better with a five minute conversation or less. Doesn't have to be in therapy or whatever. That's great too. But really you tell what's going on in five minutes and wanting to get loaded is going to dissipate. Whether it's to zero or it's a 20% or whatever, it's going to go way down. So that is what I have learned to snitch on the disease. And then for me also, it's like keeping up my practice. And this is a bit unique to me, but like I live on the road. And then for me also, it's like keeping up my practice. And this is a bit unique to me, but like I live on the road. The end of the year, I'll be out there for like, you know,

seven, eight months out of the year in different time zone, in different countries and all that. And one thing that I have learned is that I need to prioritize on the road with the schedule. I can't just be like, I'll do step work like sometime this week. Like, no, you're writing every day for 20 minutes. You you're writing every day for 20 minutes. You're doing yoga every day for 20 minutes. You're meditating for 20 minutes. I'm trying to do this 20, 20, 20 every day on top of whatever recovery I'm doing. And I'm like, if I was doing 20, 20, 20 every day, meditation, yoga, and step work, I can almost guarantee you I'm not going to relapse. I mean, there's no guarantees, but like the odds of me relapsing go down exponentially versus me just being like, I'm on tour, you know,

I'm clean. No, that doesn't work for me. Yeah. Yeah. I traveled for work when I came back again a lot and it was hard. I mean, it does take a certain extra commitment and clarity to doing that when your schedule is so kind of random. And that's true of any habit, any behavior, anything. When there's no sort of steady context, it's harder to do. It just takes more effort. And that idea about telling on the disease. I mean, I think the thing that I've found is like the sooner the better, right? Because there comes a point you detail it in your song really well. Like I know I should call my sponsor, but I don't want to, you know. The earlier we intervene has been my lesson with any emotional thing that's

going on. The sooner I see what's going on and get help and share it, the better chance I have. If it gets to a certain point, it just feels like a tidal wave. Completely. The last thing, and I know we're tight on time here, I just wanted to talk briefly about the song Tears, which is a song that sounds like a love song, but it's a love song to your drug. But near the end, you say, what I thought was love was really just my disease. I always thought the problem was you, and I couldn't believe when I learned that the whole time my issue was me. Bitch you killed my uncle, you're fucking trouble, socially acceptable and oh so subtle,

you ruined my life and I fucking loved you, promised relief and left me with a rusty shovel and some busted rubble, pieces of my life that you destroyed, was once freedom and joy, was now depression being unemployed, and I knew I had to change it and face it and checked into rehab and 28 days later I remembered who I really was. I remembered where I'm really from. I remembered the beauty of the present moment that you only get when you connect to the creator and the breath inside the chest that fully fills your lungs. I found the people with the same allergy and what I thought was love was really just my disease. I always thought the problem was you and couldn't believe when I learned that the whole time my issue was me. I ride with you, lie for you,

my tried and true love I never knew. So we talk about the disease of alcoholism or addiction or all that, but you're also pointing to, there's very much something inside of us that is kind of at the heart of that. What does that mean to you when you realize the problem is you? That I'm responsible for my disease. It's not my fault. It's not a moral or ethical shortcoming. It's just that now that I have the tools, I need to take my medicine.

And my medicine comes in the form of recovery. And if I don't, then eventually that other wolf is fed and it's on my shoulders in a beautiful way. I don't look at it as like, oh man, now I got to do, you know, now I got, I get to be in recovery today. I love that I have a program that gets me closer, connected to my higher power, to my God. I love that I have a program that gets me closer, connected to my higher power, to my God. I love that I have a program that reminds me like, yo, be of service, help other people. That's the quickest way to get out of self. This is a self-centered disease. Go help somebody else. I'm feeling like I'm in my head. Things aren't working out the way that I want them to. I'm like, am I in self-will or am I accepting right now that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be? I have all these tools to bring me back here to the present

moment and to realize that this life is beautiful. Being in recovery is beautiful. The disease of addiction, as ugly and baffling and conniving as it is, I'm so grateful that I have it because it's given me a means in which I get to connect to something that is so much bigger than me. I think that a lot of people go through life just like getting by and everything's okay. And for me, I'm an extreme person. It's big, it's grandiose, or it's like the depths of hell. But those depths of hell have taught me so much that when I come back to the breath, that when I can be here truly connected, where I can control the thoughts that I'm having and look at how I'm spinning narratives or becoming a victim or wanting to escape or all these things,

I have a means in which to do that through the 12-step program that I work. And what a beautiful life it is. It's introduced me to so many amazing people. I'm not someone that likes to do interviews at all. I don't really like it. I could talk to you all day. It's easy. It's like, I love this shit. My manager was like, it's about recovery, so it might be heavy. I'm like, great, great. I don't want to talk about myself and music and talk about what my kids did and small talk with some random stranger on Zoom or whatever. I'm like, no, I want to talk about recovery because this shit saved my life. And what a gift it has been to be able to share with others, relatively protecting my anonymity.

I'm sure I step all over the traditions and whatnot, but I care about saving people's lives, man. And not myself, but telling them how I saved my own. That's the greatest gift is to be like, man, I was in a seemingly hopeless state of denial and I wanted to die and kill myself and I couldn't get out of it. And this is how I did it. And everyone's recovery is different. But at the core, at the very piece, whether it's a triangle or a diamond, we have these founding rooted places that we can always come back to and live clean just for today, one day at a time. And I love it. Well, I think that is a beautiful place to wrap up.

Thank you so much. I also have enjoyed this and could do it all day, but thank you for your music. Thank you for being so honest in your music, in your life. I do think it helps a lot of people. Like you said, you're an example of starting over and that's really important. We need that. I appreciate it. And thank you for the parable and the platform that you have in talking about this. I think that sometimes all you need is just that one little reminder. It can be the most simple thing. You can go to a meeting and be like, Oh, why am I here? And then one person says one sentence that could completely change the course of your entire

existence. Yeah. You just have to stick around for it. Yep. Keep coming back. Well, if you ever want to expand upon this, I would be happy to have you anytime. I appreciate it, brother. Thank you so much for having me, man. Yep. Take care. You too. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community,

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