The One You Feed - Anna David

Episode Date: June 3, 2014

This week on The One You Feed we have Anna David.I met Anna at her studio in Los Angeles where she records the AfterParty Pod. If I didn't insist on trying to keep the conversation close to 30 minutes we might still be talking.Anna David is the New York Times-bestselling author of the novels Party Girl and Bought, the non-fiction books Reality Matters, Falling for Me, By Some Miracle I Made It Out of There  and True Tales of Lust and Love and the Kindle Singles Animal Attraction and They Like Me, They Really Like Me.She was the sex and relationship expert on G4’s Attack of the Show for over three years and is a regular guest on The Today Show, Fox News’ Hannity and Red Eye, The CBS Morning Show, Dr. Drew, The Talk, Jane Velez-Mitchell, Inside Edition and various other programs on Fox News, NBC, MSNBC, CTV, MTV News, VH1 and E. Her Sirius radio show was the network’s number-one specialty show and she’s written for The New York Times, The LA Times, Details, Playboy, People, Cosmo, Us Weekly, Redbook, Maxim, Movieline, Women’s Health, Vice, The Daily Beast, The Huffington Post,Buzzfeed, xojane and Salon, among many others. She has been an editor at the websites Styleclick, Dipdive and The Fix, an assistant editor at Parenting and a staff writer for Premiere. In 2011, she created the storytelling show True Tales of Lust and Love (now a web series for Ish Entertainment and soon to be a comedy pilot), which she hosted until it closed in 2014.In 2013, Anna created TheAfterPartyGroup, which is made up of articles and a podcast focused on de-stigmatizing addiction. She sold the company in 2014 but continues to run the site and podcast. She speaks on television and at colleges across the country on addiction and is on the board of The Peggy Albrecht Friendly House, the oldest women’s recovery house in the US.In This Interview Anna and I Discuss...The One You Feed parable.Not knowing that we have a choice in how we feel and think.Understanding that we have some control in our happiness.How self obsession was making her so unhappy.The difference between sadness and self-pity.When to accept feelings and when to change them.How hard it is to tell what we can change and what we need to accept.How our default position tends to be negative.Feeling bad about feeling bad.The emptiness of acquisition.The different paths to addiction.Feeling that we need to take care of others emotions.Not settling.Always thinking that life is somewhere else in the future.Fear of looking vulnerable.Fostering cooperation instead of competition.Despair and Compare.Deciding to embrace the life we have.Comparing our insides to other people's outsides.How no one's life is perfect. Anna David LinksAnna David HomepageAnna's Podcast- AfterParty PodAfterParty ChatAnna David Author page on Amazon Some of our most popular interviews you might also enjoy:Mike Scott of the WaterboysRich RollTodd Henry- author of Die EmptyRandy Scott HydeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I don't compare myself to Hillary Clinton and feel bad. I compare myself to those who have what I seem to think I could get. But the fact that I don't compare myself to Hillary Clinton or whoever it is and feel inferior shows me that it's not about comparing. It's about jealousy. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our

spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer.

Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the show. Our guest today is Anna David, American author, journalist, and television personality specializing in addiction and recovery, as well as relationships.

She's the author of Party Girl, Bot, and Falling for Me. Anna was the sex and relationship expert on G4's Attack of the Show and has been featured on countless other TV programs. In 2013, Anna launched After Party Chat, a website focused on addiction and recovery. Let's hear the interview recorded on location in Los Angeles. Hi, Anna. Welcome to the show. So fun to be here. Big fan of the podcast. Well, thank you. It's exciting to be here in person in your office in this special screening room in Los Angeles, so this is fun. Isn't this cool? Yeah, I really like it here.

Give a shout out to WeWork, this office space, because it's amazing. It is a really, really cool space. is a really, really cool space. So as you know, our podcast is based on the parable of two wolves, where there's an old grandfather telling a story. And he says, in life, there's two wolves inside of us. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and love and joy. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like hatred and greed and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by just asking how that parable applies to you in the work you do and in your life. Oh my God, does that parable apply? You know, I think before I got sober, I had no idea there were two wolves at all. Um, I simply only fed the bad

wolf and, and things were relatively good. I would say, you know, ignorance is bliss in, in youth. And so it wasn't so debilitating to feed the bad wolf. And then I got sober and I was introduced to this idea that we actually have some control over our own happiness. And that was a revelation to me that, that our attitude was really everything that, you know, my problem wasn't my circumstances, but my reactions to my circumstances. And so, and so, um, I think I sort of almost got high off of that idea that I could, of course we didn't use the language feed the good wolf, but I could, um, I could change my perception of things and that, um, and that I, it was my self obsession that was making me so unhappy. And, and so I got pretty good at feeding the good wolf.

And then when you're sober a while, I think it gets harder. And the big thing I struggle with today, as we sort of have already discussed, is when I have sadness to process, am I feeding the bad wolf or am I dealing with what I need to deal with? Yep. That is definitely a challenging one, that line between genuine grief and self-pity blurs. And I liked what you said earlier this morning because we tend to, people in recovery, but people in general, we still have, I think, in recovery, an addictive relationship to pain. I feel pain, so I must end it. I must not be doing something right.

I must go work with the newcomer. I must work some steps. It's pain, and I don't want it, so I'm going to make it go away. And I think for me, a lot of it has been becoming more comfortable with that pain and saying, okay, I can live with this. I don't need to make it go away. Yeah, I mean, to me, alcoholism is, I can't stand the way I feel.

I'll do anything I can to change it. And that's how the fuck-its come in and people decide to drink. Right. And the thing is, I easily relate to, I can't stand this pain. I'll do anything I can to get rid of it. I do feel that that's rid of it. I, um, I do feel that that's not only something that I am, that's not gotten better. The difference is I

know it's temporary. I always know it's ephemeral, but that doesn't mean, I think I have a very low tolerance for pain. Um, and I was recently talking to somebody about this. Um, you know, I know most people I know, they get depressed and they wallow in it and they binge watch TV and they lie in bed and they eat. And I do not, the second pain happens, all I do is get active and, you know, do everything I can to escape it. Um, because I truly feel that it's more painful. Like if you guys were talking about the same pain I'm talking about, you wouldn't do that. Right.

Right. You would, you would get the hell out cause it's that bad. Yeah. Um, I think pain and depression, it's, it's weird the way it affects different people.

Yeah. There's so many people that it is. It's just the effort to do anything becomes overwhelming and they pretty much end up in bed yeah we had andrew solomon on a couple weeks ago and he describes in his book the noontay demon that he just really does a good job of describing how heavy everything gets but i don't understand how people would would be able to stand it yeah Yeah. I agree. I agree. Are you that way? You have to get out of it. I try really am hard. Right. I mean, I do my depression though, when it comes like when it's not, not, um, episodic, like it's not because this thing happened. It's just, it sort of

feels like it recurs. That is my, I'm very mentally dull. I'm very'm very uh but I've realized that you know I say depression hates a moving target yeah right get out and do something because that's the best medicine for me for sure yeah yeah um yeah this this thing I'm going through it's just loss it's not um and loss is is not a bad kind of pain because it has an end point. Right. And it's about something real. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's so different because I used to get depressed and I would be so scared of that depression that I would not want to deal with, oh, I'm lonely. Oh, I feel sad. So I would make up a huge story in my head about, oh, I'm going to be alone forever. Oh, you know, because my brain would think that that was a more effective way of dealing with my loss or whatever it was than just dealing with it. And so now the big change is I deal with it. I touch the pain. I go, oh, I'm sad about this, but it's new for me. Like that's not something I got right away when I got sober. Right. I think that's a, that's a maturing process through, you know, recovery or personal development or call it what you will, that being willing to,

it is the opposite of I'm going to change every feeling I have. Yeah. And that, like we said, to start it off that boy, that line of where that is, is a really tricky one, which I think is why the serenity prayer resonates so strongly. It's that it is the most seminal sort of thing I've ever heard that, Oh, some things I can change and I should, and other things I can't and I shouldn't. How on earth do I know is the tricky part. Well, and not to mention, you know, sometimes depression is awareness of changes we need to make in our lives. Exactly. And it's processing, it's mourning. Oh, I've wasted all of this time not dealing with this.

And that's very real and that's very necessary because otherwise we just exist, you know, without making radical changes to our lives. And sometimes we need to. I agree. We do need that. Absolutely need that pain. And that's what I always, I do wrestle with. And I think on the show we end up getting into some of these themes that have come up over and over again because I think they fascinate me are that one of them being sort of the the the serenity prayer we just talked about and when in life do you when in life do you go this is the situation it is and i'm going to accept it

and when in life do i need to try and change it and that's how i i'm just fascinated by how hard that is to sort out and one of the things that in the andrew solomon interview that and his book that he said that just hit me so clearly was that people who know they cannot change their circumstances there's no way it could be different cope with them far better yeah that's right and because it's so much of I think this ties into another thing I think a lot about I think so much of what we go through is this the in Buddhism they call it the second arrow so the first arrow is we got shot

and we got some pain, you've got some loss the second arrow is all the stories we tell ourselves about what that means I shouldn't feel this way if I was really sober as long as I would I wouldn't be upset about this my life shouldn't be like this and that layer

we put on top of everything is at at least for me, what the idea of suffering is. Right. Versus pain. Right, exactly, exactly. And it's, yeah, because a little self-pity does come into pain. Absolutely. Because, you know, ego, because my losses aren't death. It's something that I feel I played a big part in.

And so, and so did I, you know, and it's like, Oh, I caused this. Um, or maybe I didn't, you know, but I do think, um, we're, you know, so many recovery lessons are about, look at your part and don't blame the other. And so my natural instinct is to think that I did it. Yep. I have that too, to an extreme, I think. The look at my part in it, totally discount the other person's part. I think the other thing that has been the extreme is, you know, in recovery they talk so much about,

I don't remember what page it is, this page about acceptance is the answer to everything. Well, it was the former page 449. Yeah, and I don't believe that's true. I mean, I actually don't believe that that is the truth because that means it's, I mean, you can get very philosophical about it and say, well, you have to accept it and then you have to change it. But I'm altogether too willing sometimes in life to be like, ah, screw it. I think that's good. I envy that.

I don't think it is, though. Really? I don't think it always is. I don't think, I mean, it's the old, you know, a hammer's not the right tool for every job or laying down. Like, some of it is like, I've got a kid. a hammer's not the right tool for every job or laying down. Like some of it is like, I've got a kid. There are times I need to stand up and advocate on his behalf when it feels like it would be easier to go, I don't care.

And so, and I've had, that's something that took me a long time going through recovery to even start to see that idea that I was, that I needed to pay more attention to the courage part of the serenity prayer and i think there are other people have to pay a lot more attention to the acceptance part and that one strikes me that way and and i happen to love that story in in the literature and acceptance is the answer because i need that and And, um, you know, you know, he goes on to say, you know, if, if I'm upset, I'm finding, I'm finding trouble with God's world. And until I can find peace with that, I can't be happy. And, and so, you know, I think it's

interesting cause it really speaks to me cause that's what I really need. I don't sound like, oh, I'm so courageous, but I don't really struggle with trying to change it. Yep. And that's good. But a lot of your life is, that is clearly one of your best attributes. And worst. And probably one of your worst, right? And that's the, you know, we just, I saw your gorgeous apartment. And had you not, had you just accepted, you just, I saw your gorgeous apartment and had you not,

had you just accepted, oh, I never heard from them. Right. You never would have got it. Right. Right. And so the flip side would be, had you spent, you know, four months pestering the woman until she called the police on you. Right. That would be an example of, and it's always that middle.

Yeah, it is. It is. I, I do it. I think it's interesting. I've just been dealing with this a little bit i do it because i think i can change the circumstances by by uh try but trying harder and it's interesting because these two losses i suffered were because i reached out thinking i could get the answer i wanted. And I got in both cases, the answer I did not want.

And I'm like, God damn it. Why? You know, I'd rather not know than know, but I, I hear that it's better to know. And I know that it is.

Yeah. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really.

Yeah, Really. No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. One of the things that, and we started the podcast talking about it, and I read an article you wrote where you reviewed the book Ending Addiction for Good. And there was a line in there that you quoted that I absolutely love and thought was perfect for the podcast. Because

I think it talks about addicts, but I think it applies to everybody and what we're talking about in the show. It says the addict's mind is negative when it's unguarded. The idea is the power to change his thoughts whenever he'd like. How does that, you want to talk a little bit more about what spoke to you in that line? Well, it's exactly what we've been talking about. You know, I think that that's true once you've processed something. I do think the addict's mind is focused on the negative. And that's where it's like, when is it addiction and when is it depression? And when is it normal human?

And when is it human? Right, yeah, because there's a lot of that, I think. But, you know, and I can only really speak for me. I mean, and a lot of the friends I've had and girls I've sponsored, where, you know, we do go to the negative first. And we do have the ability, you know, we do go to the negative first and, um, and we do have the ability, you know, the, the big revelation for me, one of the big revelations when I got sober

was that, you know, I thought you get depressed and you're there for like, maybe it's a year, maybe three years. And I remember having the experience of, of feeling depressed in the morning and then changing my thoughts and, and feeling depressed in the morning and then changing my thoughts and, and feeling fine by the afternoon. I had never known that was possible. Yep. Um, but, but it's just interesting that we're doing this when I'm like sort of going, going through it. I always want to do it when I'm not going through something, you know, whenever I'm asked to speak in a meeting it's like always the time when i'm in the middle of a challenge yeah well that's the that's sort of the proof is in the pudding of of a spiritual way of life is how do you how do you handle it when

when things are not perfect yeah because it's pretty easy i was talking with a friend of mine who i'm out here with and he's going through a through a heartbreak and he's sort of like I was just I felt like I was totally open to whatever would happen I'm like it's easy to be open to whatever will happen when the things that are happening are good the minute they turn really bad that's the when it's really challenging to yeah and his big thing is a little bit like we talked about adding that pain on top of pain he feels like he shouldn't feel the way he does right of course you should right right heart everybody gets their heart broken it's a natural thing it's unpleasant as hell but you don't need to feel bad about yourself now if you're having the same conversation and you're in the same place in six months then

maybe we need to evaluate right you know should you be taking you know should you be doing some things differently the thing i liked about that line, the addict's mind is negative when unguarded is that I think it applies to, it's the reason I started the podcast because my mind, you know, unguarded or left to its own devices just is not focused on the things that end up bringing happiness. And I think that goes, addicts are an extreme example of it, but I see it everywhere in our culture because our culture isn't pointing us in that direction. And one of the best definitions I ever heard of spirituality was, because it's a weird term, I don't even know what to do with it,

but was that spirituality is simply the understanding that happiness doesn't come from outside things. Right. And so that's not the message we get day to day. So the reason that I started the podcast and I like that line is that I just need to be reminded. I know how to do a lot of those things, how to move into a better space. I just don't, even if I'm not doing it, it doesn't occur to me, right? I can go days, weeks believing that happiness really is this thing out there. Right, right.

And it's not. I mean, societally, that's, you know, the American way is acquire, whether it's material stuff or a family or mostly career. And, you know, I was really raised in a family that believed that, and that was in our blood. And, um, and so it is, it's a constant struggle for me to, to remember that it's not about that. And, um, and that it's okay to want those things, but they can't feed us. Right. They're perfectly natural things and they there is pleasure in a lot of that stuff it's just it's just if that's what you think the basis

when we were talking with lewis howes the other day he talked about his dream had been to be an all-american right and he's an all-american he's sitting at the ceremony he feels completely empty right and i've had that experience of getting the thing that I thought I wanted. I worked so hard to get it and I get it and it's kind of flat. And I realized that the time working towards it was the profound time. Well, that's interesting because if I think about this business that I built, it was horrible building it. Horrible. I doubt the first six months were good. And then the second six months, I just thought this is a disaster. Everything I've worked for has been, and then I, and then when I sold it, it has been so satisfying on every level. But I also think that's because, um, this, this is my dream, you know, to, to be able to do this work around, around, you know, sharing a positive message

around recovery. And I, and it was so hard that, that the satisfaction of somebody seeing merit in it and paying me to do it has been so sweet. I'm sure. And, and it, but it's not an end point. No, right. It wasn't a, it wasn't a, I got this thing. You're, I think what, if if I hear you right a lot of what you're saying is the joy is in the fact that you get To keep doing it with more support. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely So yeah, you could say i'm still in the building phase. Yeah, so it is enjoyable But I did want to say I'm ending addiction for good is is an amazing book. I'm a big fan of Richard tate and Connie sharp who who wrote that.

I've not read it, but based on the review you gave, it strikes a lot of things. I mean, I, I'm not a believer that like, Oh, all you need is the 12 steps and you're good. I mean, I'm just not, I sometimes wonder, I sometimes wonder, are we doing a disservice to people? Because there are mental, there are physical, there are a lot of different things I think that are really important in recovery. And you just, you can't even really by and large talk about that stuff in a lot of meetings. It's like, that's not in the book. Done. Right. Yeah. Um, I think that, I don't know if it's LA sobriety or, or what, but, but I do think in meetings you, you hear that. And I don't know if it's LA sobriety or what, but I do think in meetings you hear that, and I don't know if you even noticed that this morning, that it was completely fine.

You know, a friend of mine talked about she really needed outside stuff. Right, right. She really needed outside help because it's not enough. I think it can be enough. I think it can be enough the fact that she has to qualify that and speak of it as if it's something special shows that there's a stigma against it

at least somewhere still in the culture I guess so I don't feel that stigma in LA I think I did when I lived in New York but I think that it's very accepted

that I think that 12 steps can be enough. Um, if you don't have any trauma. Yeah. Um, but, but I, most alcoholics I know have trauma. Yeah. There does seem to be, be a lot of that. Speaking of trauma, you, you, you mentioned your childhood a little bit and there was something you talked about in one of your books that I wanted to spend a couple minutes talking about. And you said you sometimes think it's your duty to save or take care of people if they're the slightest bit uncomfortable or sad.

And that leaves you believing that relationships are oppressive. Yeah. I mean, I don't remember writing that, but, um, but I relate to it a lot. Um, I think because, uh, you know, I grew up in this family where my dad is very depressed and my mom was always trying to manage and control that. And I saw their relationship as tragic. Yeah. And as the last thing on earth I would ever want would be a marriage. Because look at what that looks like. And they didn't have a lot of friends.

So I didn't see examples in my formative years of any other way of doing it. Right, right. And so, and I think that that has been my big burden and challenge in life is that I desperately want that now. And I don't think I know how to get it because for so long, it was not something I wanted, you know, in early, you know, when I was much younger, I, I, I had this amazing loving relationship and I sort of thought, Oh, well, who wants this? There's a whole life to go get. Right, right. And I could have better. And, you know, it turns out so far that's not true.

Yeah. And that's the constant heartbreak is that I had that and I don't know how to have it again. Yeah. That idea that there's something better out there. Yeah. Is so painful. Yeah. I mean, it's such a painful way to live.

It ends in so much pain. And I've written songs about it where it's just that idea, you know, the grass is always greener. And it keeps, it's like being on the fence perpetually. And what I've realized is that that very placement of being on the fence, like you said, it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? And what I've realized is that that very placement of being on the fence affect it. Like you said, it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, prophecy, right? I'm not really in the situation bringing everything that I am.

And yes, then it's probably not going to work because I'm not really there. Yeah. Yeah. I've got my eye. I've got one of my eyes on the door the whole time to some degree. Yeah. And I, I think mine comes from the fact that i always felt that my mom settled for my dad yep and i couldn't i just sort of said i'm never gonna do that

ever and i'm gonna be financially independent so that i don't have to do that that's probably not a bad strategy the last part of that it's not a bad strategy i mean all of it probably not a bad strategy. The last part of that. It's not a bad strategy. I mean, all of it is not a bad strategy, but it, uh, it certainly makes you start to doubt, uh, at a certain point if it was such a good strategy, right? If you don't have it yet. Right. What I really liked about that part that we talked about, cause it just, it, it really, it floored me. It's the best way I've ever heard anybody say it is that I always feel like I have to take care of the people that are around me and how they're feeling. And that's why that experience can be so, as you used, oppressive to me. Why it feels like work.

Why it feels heavy. It's because I feel like I've got to, it i'm always i'm on duty in some way right i'm on duty to make sure you feel okay and so of course i don't want to be on duty which is why i want to run off and be by myself yeah i mean i think mine is is this uh it's sort of not it's just trying to it's controlling ultimately because I'm trying to make sure, I mean, mine manifests itself as sort of talking a lot because I, it's my own discomfort too, but I also want to make sure, and I know this comes from my childhood. I want to make sure, cause my dad is also silent. He doesn't speak. And so the way to make sure everyone's okay is to take on that burden every time.

Just do all the talking, do all the... Yeah, make sure everyone's comfortable. Yep, and that's why, I mean, I think that was just a really profound insight you had. Another thing that you talked about was your comfort zone. And we talk a lot on the show about, you know, comfort doesn't equal happiness. You kind of need to get out of your comfort zone. And we talk a lot on the show about, um, you know, comfort doesn't equal happiness. You kind of need to get out of your comfort zone. But I loved what you said, where you, you talked about you hate for the reason that you get reason being outside your comfort zone is so hard is that you hate to see anybody seeing you try. Yeah. Like if you're

making an effort, you're're you're exposed or you're vulnerable do you want to tell me more about this yes because it even happened this morning and it was when i was trying to share and couldn't i was like i was humiliated that you were witnessing that and it's so ridiculous right it's so ridiculous. But it's this, this, uh, this, this fear of looking vulnerable. Right. Um, is so real in me that I want everything to appear. It's okay that, you know, I worked hard for something in the past, as long as you didn't have to see it. I relate with that so much. It's like, I can speak very candidly about all my emotional states when they're done and i figured out how to solve them and i can tell you how wise i was in applying these principles but

in the moment i can't i can't get there with another person hell no and and also it's like i i'm really clear about you know i also not to make this this nice of pity at all, but one of the things that, that was, that my dad used to do is if I ever cried, he would always laugh. And then my mother, who was never used to seeing her depressed husband laugh would laugh. And then my brother, who had never seen his parents be happy before, uh, would laugh too. And so I know that's what it comes from. I feel humiliated when I'm struggling and there are witnesses. Yeah, that's a pretty awful thing to have happen as a kid. Yeah. And I can see why, given the way your dad was,

everybody else sort of piled on, not out of any sort of meanness, but out of like, oh, hell, there's actually a light moment in this house. Well, yeah, and it's kind of the thing we were just talking about, about discomfort and them feeling like they had to, um, take care of my dad because that was always the focus is make sure this guy's okay. And also give him free reign. You know, if, if I have any reactions to sort of abuse from childhood, my mom will sort of say, well, but your dad,

you know, he's special, you know, you're not allowed to have feelings about that because he's not really, he doesn't have the same ability to deal with the world that the normal people do. Right. I think the thing about that that's is it doesn't mean it's anybody's fault. It doesn't take away the fact that it has an impact on who we become yeah regardless of whether they because you can look

at anybody and find a reason why they do what they do and they that may be reasonable but it doesn't change the end result of the impact it has on the person that's on the receiving end and i don't think that's reasonable i don't think there's any reason alive, even mental illness, to laugh at your kid when they cry. I would agree. I mean, I hear things. I mean, my son is the most important thing in the world to me. Yeah. I can't fathom.

I mean, I just can't fathom. Also, the weird part is it doesn't mean I'm not important to my dad. My dad is, like, obsessed with me. Absolutely. So, you know, that's the part where, you know, he didn't important to my dad. My dad is like obsessed with me. Absolutely. So, you know, that's the part where, you know, he didn't intend to damage me. Yep. Well, I think that's what mental illness or, you know, addiction problems. I mean, the things that people do in those states are, are awful and they don't mean it. That's why we, that's why we all like the idea to some degree of,

or why the concept of addiction as a disease is so helpful because we can, I don't think we let ourselves off the hook with that, but it gives us a way to deal with some of the stuff we did that might be soul crushing. Otherwise, if you felt like this is who I am, I'm a person that does that stuff. That's tough. Yeah. tough yeah yeah and it's but it's tough if somebody's not ever willing to acknowledge that um and change it is tough do you think that if your if your dad did get better and acknowledge it that that would make a difference in how you react to life or do you feel like those patterns at this point are pretty deeply conditioned and it's your job to decondition them both because i think that it's not that it would change um you know my reactions i believe

everything important happens between zero and seven and we spend eight to the rest of our lives trying to undo that damage if there was damage um so i don't know that being said i've you know grown and my reactions to things got better But it would certainly change my relationship with him and with the rest of my family. Because, you know, I don't have a relationship with him because it's not because I'm angry. It's because he doesn't know how to not abuse me. So I'm not safe. I can't be re-traumatized around him. Right.

Yeah. It absolutely would make a big difference in your relationship. Yeah. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer.

Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian

Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, no, really. Yeah, really.

No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No, Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. you get your podcasts. One of the things that came up in the meeting we were at earlier and you said in the book is, you know, the familiar

ache rises in me, the feeling that someone close to me is something I'm scared I'm not ever going to get. Yeah. And in the meeting they were talking a lot about compare and despair. Yeah, I'd never heard that phrase. Oh, really? Never heard that phrase compare and despair. I've heard, you know that phrase. Oh, really? Never heard that phrase, compare and despair. I've heard, you know, don't compare your insides to somebody else's outsides.

But I've been thinking a lot about that concept lately. Even before I heard it in that meeting, I was thinking about how poisonous that comparison is. Because you can always look up at something you don't have, and you can always look down at something you have that somebody else doesn't. But what I've realized is that both those things do is keep me disconnected from people. So I'm just curious. And you were honest enough in the meeting to say, yeah, you still wrestle with that. Any thoughts on how to wrestle with it?

Yeah. I mean, it's a big, big thing, uh, for me and it used to be very focused on career and, and it was really painful. Also, I love my mother dearly, but she's so competitive with me. And so I really grew up believing, you know, and, and, you know, my dad was just like, you gotta be the best. You gotta be the best. And there was like, he would bribe us to get good grades, but then he would never pay us. So, you know, my dad was just like, you've got to be the best. You've got to be the best. And there was like, he would bribe us to get good grades, but then he would never pay us. So, you know, so it was definitely. I should try that. Yeah, yeah.

But, and I think it's like also growing up like Jewish American, you know, this sort of past genetic history of we were oppressed means we have to be the best. of we were oppressed means we have to be the best. And, um, and so I, I actually took steps to try to alleviate that in my career life because I saw every woman who was a writer as my competition and I could never be happy for them. And all I ever saw with their successes was my failures. And so I started this storytelling show specifically to deal with that so that it was all women. They were all successful writers. I had five of them a month for two years. And I started to understand that their success was my success because I would want them, they were in my show. I would want them to succeed. And when they did, and when they were quote unquote better than me,

them to succeed. And when they did, and when they were quote unquote better than me, it felt good. And, um, it was amazing because it really cured that part of me that saw them as competition, because especially, you know, we were talking about the hell of writing books. Um, you know, anybody succeeding with a book in any way is a victory for us all because so few of us do right um and so many people outside of book writing think you sold the book you must be how dare you complain right and it's this sort of pain that only people who write books talk about because we can commiserate with each other because your publishers make you feel like such a failure you know you you're not writing 50 shades of gray and you know most people don't read you yeah i think independent musicians can share the same pain it's that is a top-down model it's like for every you know for every mariah carey there's a hundred bands tramp you know a thousand thousands probably probably ten

thousand yeah yep so i'm oh but then one other thing I want to say about that is that, you know, I don't compare myself to Hillary Clinton and feel bad. I compare myself to those who have what I seem to think I could get. Right. And there's this... I always wish I could find it. Someone once mentioned to me that Freud has a saying about that, like the comparison to the one near you or something like that.

I've Googled and I cannot find it. So if you find it, tell me, but, but you know, it's, that's the, that's where it really gets painful. And so, but the fact that I don't compare myself to Hillary Clinton or Ariana Huffington or whoever it is and feel inferior shows me that it's not about comparing. It's about jealousy. You know, it's about wanting what you have specifically. Yeah. And not about anything else. But you, you, you solved that by, it sounds like I'm trying to think of what's the principle underneath what you did, right? Because what you did was a pretty specific action. Was it actually connecting with those people, building a real connection with them? It was building and it was making it so that their success was my success. And it kind of gave me this feeling of solidarity

rather than this feeling of alienation. And it was also, rather than seeing them as getting stuff I couldn't get, I get to know them when we start talking and they're dealing with the same exact thing. And so those stories we make up in our head, um, is, you know, those are the lies. You know, I, did you ever read stumbling upon happiness? You'd love it. I don't think so. Well, I think I did, but I don't remember a lot of it.

That's my favorite book about happiness. Was that Dan Gilbert? I think so. I can't think so. Well, I think I did, but I don't remember a lot of it. That's my favorite book about happiness. Was that Dan Gilbert? I think so. I can't remember. Their names always sound the same, these guys who write these happiness books. Yeah. But it was about the thing that I remember is basically this comparing our insides to other people's outsides.

We never, we can't see the full picture. And it's interesting we were talking about your handicapped friend because he specifically uses that. We look, the general public looks at someone who's handicapped and says, oh my God, their life must be so tragic. I can't imagine because we're not inside their life feeling, uh, joy about certain things and, and, um, and, and the full breadth. And that's, that's always true is we can make up these stories about how perfect someone's life is, but, you know, life deals everybody pain.

Yeah. That was one of the remarkable things about Andrew Solomon's latest book, Far From the Tree, because it's about parents of children who have, exceptional, whether that exceptional be Down syndrome or autism or being a genius or being a criminal and but what he thought the the theme he seems to tie together through all that is that a lot of those people have really wonderful lives and it's about their decision to embrace that life and and uh and that they all go through some degree of i wish my life looked like that but they by inhabiting their own life deeply they're able to find meaning and happiness within it but then aren't you saying then and

acceptance is the answer to all my problems today sort of because But what's interesting is that, and Andrew and I talked about this, was this is where the line, the people whose situations are unchangeable end up being the happiest. And he says, obviously if you have a situation that you can easily change, you do that. And if you have a situation you know you can't change, you don't. And that whole gray area in between is where the sort of struggle, the wisdom point is. I do think acceptance is the answer to a lot of things. I think it's a middle ground. I think that's why the serenity prayer is so powerful. It says, look, these are the two states.

You can't have one or the other. You need both. Right. And you've got to figure out that wisdom. And I just keep hoping somebody's going to be able to give me that wisdom. And, you know, one simple trick to, you know. Divide them. And it's not out there.

Right. You know, it's just not out there. But it's a compelling question to me. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, ideally a sponsor is someone who can do that. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And you know, ideally a sponsor is someone who can do that. Yep. Yep. I think that's the, you can taking it outside of just sponsorship,

but that's, or just recovery. That's the lure of the guru, the spiritual teacher, the pastor, the, you know, sometimes it is really nice to have somebody say, here's what you should do. Yeah. Because being an adult is freaking. Can you believe it? Can you believe how ill-prepared most of us are for that yeah oh yeah it is amazing it's i'm sometimes amazed by how well people do in general because if you really got i hate to keep bringing up andrew solomon but he talks about for people who have depression what they believe is they're finally seeing the real world. Yeah.

They're seeing the, you know, the veil has been pulled back. Right. And there's all sorts of tests that say depressed people are far more capable of making good judgments in factual things. Oh, that's so awful. I know. I know. It's like they put them through this game where they're like they have to go play a video game and kill lots of things or shoot things. And at the end, they ask them how many things do they think they killed?

And the depressed people are usually pretty accurate. And the happy, optimistic people are like, you know, off by a factor of six or something. They're just delusional. Right. But there's something to be said for that delusion. Right. I mean, it's, it's. I take said for that delusion. Right. I mean, it's... I take it, by the way.

I would totally, you know, I have a friend we always talk about, you know, she has some friends who are sort of happy and don't wrestle with these feelings. And it's just because they're not thinking about them. And how can we be those people? I would take it too. Yeah. I don't think it's in the cards for me at all. Yeah.

I just, that's not the way I'm wired. Henry James, William James, has the varieties of religious experience. Yeah. He describes there's two kinds of people. There's firstborn people. I may not be getting this exactly right, but they basically come out and they know how to be happy and they know how to function in life and they go on their way.

And they're, you would say they're relatively shallow because they don't have any need to not be. They just know how to live life. And then there's the secondborn people, which is the people who come out and really are just the world's a you know a clusterfuck to them right they don't know what to do and they eventually find the thing that gives them the ability to cope with that and they tend to be very um they tend to be very thoughtful they tend to be very but it's it's

because they just had to yeah i'm definitely the latter in that group. Me too. I mean, there's no doubt about it. But that said, I'm clearly a far better, more functioning version of that. Right. That latter than I have been at different points in my life where, you know, the bad wolf is totally running the show. Yeah. Yeah.

I definitely suffer from second child syndrome and and you know I guess you get to say okay we've suffered so we're deeper thinkers who cares I don't need deep thoughts right all right well I think we are about at the end of our time this has been fun it's fun to sit in person and it's one of the few times i've relied on my notes almost none at all because this has been an engaging no no it's good it's good so thank you very much and thank you we will uh talk soon okay all right bye you can learn more about this podcast and Anna David at one you feed.net slash Anna