The One You Feed - Belinda Gore

Episode Date: January 19, 2016

This week we talk to Belinda Gore about The EnneagramThis episode was recorded outdoors, live before an audienceBelinda Gore is a psychologist, coach and experienced seminar leader who is skilled in supporting high-level learning and personal development.  She holds a Ph.D. in Counselor Education and Counseling Psychology, from The Ohio State University. Using the Enneagram system along with thirty years’ experience in facilitating change, she helps leaders identify their natural talents and deliver results by engaging the best in themselves and their organizations.She founded The Enneagram Institute of Central Ohio, is the former president of The Cuyamungue Institute, a non-profit organization with international membership, and is a founder and former managing partner of Wilbridge Consultation Center, a multidisciplinary group using a holistic approach in working with individuals and groups. Our Sponsor this Week is FractureVisit Fracture and use the promo code “wolf” to get 10% off!! In This Interview, Belinda and I Discuss:The One You Feed parableUnderstanding our filters and patternsThe EnneagramChoosing what to focus onThe great Lou DeweinHow we need nature in our life- echo philosophyWhat the Enneagram isThe 9 Enneagram Personality Types For more show notes visit our websiteSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I am deeply programmed to believe that my value is based on what I produce. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out out or you are what you think ring true And yet for many of us our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us we tend toward negativity self pity Jealousy or fear we see what we don't have instead of what we do We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit, but it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other

people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor? What's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. floor, what's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer.

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Belinda Gore, a psychologist, coach, and experienced seminar leader who is skilled in supporting high-level learning and personal development. She holds a Ph.D. in counselor education and counseling psychology from The Ohio State University. Using the Enneagram system, along with 30 years' experience in facilitating change, she helps leaders identify their natural talents and deliver results by engaging the best in themselves and their organizations. She founded the Enneagram Institute of Central Ohio. This interview was recorded live before an audience at the Sacred Geo Experience in Centerburg, Ohio. And here's the interview with Belinda Gore. Keep in mind, by the way,

this interview was recorded outdoors, so you may be hearing some sounds you're not used to hearing on the one you feed, like crickets, other outdoor noises, and possibly some cows knocking over the mic stands. You and I have sort of known each other through some connections for a number of years, which we'll talk about in a few minutes. But let's start the episode like we always do with the parable. But let's start the episode like we always do with the parable. So there is a grandfather who's talking with his grandson, and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.

And the grandson stops, and he thinks about it for a second and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, Grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, the one we feed is, for me, if I come at this from an Enneagram point of view, my understanding of my Enneagram type is that I have some core patterns, some ways I tend to think about life, some filters that are so deeply embedded that I don't even know

that they're there. It was such an amazing experience for me in 1990 when I started to learn about the Enneagram to see that, wow, here I thought I was this person with all these special secrets and things like this. And there it is in the book, right? The one I feed has to do with not which type my fears, in my belief that I'm separate and I have to be afraid and I have to figure out how to survive? Or do I want to feed the attitude that, in fact, the world is a safe place to be despite things that are dangerous and frightening, and that I can choose to be open to life. I can choose to not be afraid of the things that may hurt. I can stay present. And by doing that, the beauty of it is naturally for all of us, we open up into our highest capacities that are still within the type structure. willingness to stay open to life instead of letting my fears keep me hunched down and therefore stuck in the less attractive aspects of my Enneagram tendencies.

Yeah, that's an interesting point. And we'll get to that in a little bit, because one of the things I found fascinating about the Enneagram was it would describe how a type would look in their, I'm going to get the words wrong, but let's say their flourishing state versus their shutdown state or their, you know, damaged state. And so it was really interesting to see like, okay, here's a central type and here's what it looks like when it's doing well and when not. And it's, they're sort of symptoms to watch for as I saw it. So you sat on the board of directors for an organization called Niches for a number of years. I was on the board for a very short time, but the gentleman who

founded and ran that thing was a man by the name of Lou DeWine, who's no longer with us. And one of the things that I really wish about this show is that I could have him on. Yeah. And I can't, which is too bad. So you having been one of his best friends, I thought we could honor Lou by having you tell me the thing that you, I'm sure I learned a ton from the man, but if you could pull out one thing you learned from Lou, what would it be? Well, I wrote back to you. I can think of lots of things.

So the most important thing is the passion and commitment with which he engaged his life. He created a place in southern Ohio for all of us to learn how to be in the natural world, to learn how to not rely on electricity and running water, and to celebrate that instead of seeing it as a hardship. He worked really, really hard to create niches. He lived there. He also taught at Capital University. And it was a hard life in one sense, but he was living his life. He was embracing what mattered to him. And he always stands up for me as a reminder of don't hold back.

Go for what you care about. Yeah, it was a great place. I think what I got from Lou among many things, one of them was that idea that a connection to nature is a fundamental part of us and that that needs to be fed, to use the wolf analogy, which I don't think is something that I knew before that. I don't think I ever felt as comfortable or safe or at home as I did sitting in the cabin when he was cooking. Lou would be so happy to be hearing you say that. Yeah. There's a field called eco-psychology saying that we're not healthy if we're not, if we don't have a sense of being at home in the natural world.

And so you can imagine we had a lot of conversations about that. But, yeah, it's wonderful to be able to celebrate Lou with you. And when we first spoke on the phone and you said, I think I recognize your name, and do you know Lou DeWine or Nitches? And it was like, okay, Eric and I are going to be fine together. So let's now go into the Enneagram. Can you explain what the Enneagram is in 10 sentences or less? There's old books on it, I know. Yeah, yeah. So you'll have to tug me away when I get past my ninth sentence. The Enneagram is both a symbol, which is hanging up here, which is a nine-pointed star figure. So Enneagram, Ennea comes from the word for nine, so there are nine points, a diagram of nine points around a circle, connected

in particular ways that we can talk about later. But the Enneagram, in addition to being a symbol, the symbol is a map. And the map really shows the ways in which all forms of reality manifest or deteriorate. And so the Enneagram of Personality Types helps us identify our core patterns, what do we most relate to, what are our inherent strengths and capacities, and an understanding of where we can get bogged down in those same areas, but also how we grow. And so it's a map. I've worked with this map for 26 years now. I'm a psychologist and I do coaching and I use the Enneagram. I teach the Enneagram to coaches because it's such a great map to be able to show us who are we and how do we feed the good wolf in us. I had a question there. You said the Enneagram for personality types is this. Is there more to it than the personality types? Yes. Okay. I think that we shouldn't even

go there because there's way too much to talk about. And we're going to be doing well to talk about the Enneagram of personality in this time. Excellent. Well, why don't we take a minute and walk through what the basic personality types are. Now, one of the things that I like about the Enneagram is that it sounds very mystical. And you look at the symbol and it seems mystical. And it may have elements of that. But the test and the results struck me as just a very well done personality test. Yep, that's right. And so that struck me. So I think, you know,

if you haven't done an Enneagram test, anybody, whether you're here or listening, it's certainly worth doing. And there's a there's a couple free ones online, and then you can pay for a little bit more. But I found it to be maybe the best of the various personality type tests that I've taken that seemed to illuminate to me the most great what type I was. So let's spend a minute and walk through what the types are. I don't think you might be able to hear a type and go, oh, that's me. But I think that diagnosis might be false. So I would definitely recommend taking the test. But why don't you tell us what the different types are? And then tell them what the best type is. I'm going to start with the... Nine.

Yours. Right, right. Okay. So just as long as we're clear. He cued me for that one. Yes, I did. Yes. Before we even start with the nine types, I want to talk about how the Enneagram is so generic. It's based on three centers of intelligence that we all have. The belly center, the heart center, and the head center. Now, of course, most of us think that our intelligence is in our heads.

There are great studies published. Heart Math is an organization that talks about the intelligence in the heart. And there's a lot about how many neural connections we have in the belly center, plexus of nerves. So we have different ways of being intelligent. In the Enneagram, the nine types are based on those three centers. So there are three types that are connected with each of the three centers, hence nine.

And to understand the types, it's not so hard to understand the head center as a point of intelligence because we think about the two lobes of the brain, our logic, and even the right brain, which recognizes patterns. But when we think about the heart as a center of intelligence, one of the things we can do is recognize that in our language, we have phrases that talk about accessing the wisdom of the heart. Any of them come to mind for you? Like, you know, follow your heart or even being hard-hearted or warm-hearted or cold-hearted. We know, we've embedded in our language the

knowledge that there is some wisdom here. Similarly with the gut. What do we know about gut? Gut instinct. Yes, follow your gut. I couldn't stomach it. You know, it's the screening system that's already going there. So the Enneagram is based on there are three types that have fundamental issues with one of these three centers. So we're going to start with the belly. The reason we start there is that's where we all start when we're babies. I mean, what do we do? You know, we're all about our instincts and we're all about taking care of ourselves. And the belly center is just about being grounded and centered and accessing our instincts.

So there are three ways we can interact with the belly. We can overdo it. We can rely on it too much. You know, it's just, we're going to just muscle ahead. I realize that your listeners can't see my gesture here. So I'm just, you know, making a fist and pushing forward. We can channel all of this energy into something. Or we can have a complicated relationship in which we kind of rest in the belly when we want to be comfortable and couch potatoes and, you know, just sort of

be in the belly, be in our bodies, or disconnect from it. So all of that's foundation to say. First type is type eight. So have a look over there. And type eight is the type that overdoes the belly center. Sometimes it's called the boss, the leader. It's an energy that accesses this belly energy and pushes forward. So, I mean, I'm always interested in how people relate to that as far as who you think of. and how people relate to that as far as who you think of. Lots of military generals, the mafia. You know, it's like, I'll take good care of you as long as you do what I tell you to. And if you don't, then I'll break your knees or put your feet in cement and drop you in the river.

You're not an eight, are you? No. Okay. Just not sure how close to sit. And how nice you have to be to me, right? I'm trying. So the high side of eight is being able to act on your vision to be a strong leader. Martin Luther King Jr.,

and what's the great movie that's just been out, Selma? Wonderful movie about him as a leader. So we've got that kind of visionary leader, and then we've got the lower brand of type 8, which is my way or the highway, and if you don't do it the way I want you to, I'll get you one way or another. So probably we don't have any low-level eights in the group, right? Okay. Then we go to type nine, your favorite type.

It's at the very top. It's at the very top. I don't know what that means. Yeah, one of the unfortunate things, Eric, is actually none of the types is inherently better than any of the other types. And that the number doesn't have anything to do with the strength of the type, the goodness of the type. It's just I tend to use the numbers because a lot of Enneagram teachers have seen fit to give their own names to it. So some teachers call nine the peacemaker, other call it the mediator. Do you remember any other words that have come up?

Those are the two I've heard, the peacemaker mainly. So the thing is you can read five different teachers and have five different names. So somebody says, I'm the peacemaker, and somebody who's trained with somebody else says, I'm the peacemaker. And somebody who's trained with somebody else says, I don't know what that is. So I just use numbers. Okay. So type nine, even though it's at the top of the Enneagram star, has this complicated relationship with the belly center. Sometimes inside the, I call it being boxed in, inside the box is being, you know, just really liking your comforts, really liking, you know, whether it's a beer and potato chips

and the football game or taking a nice walk in nature, but just really getting in the body, being in the belly, feeling at ease there. But then what nines can do is get outside that box and lose touch with themselves altogether. And then they're just like, I'll do anything to get along. Don't rock the boat. No conflict. I'm just going to suppress myself so I can fit in. And obviously, it's hard for me to not go on and on and on about descriptions of the type, but I'm trying hard not to. Anything you're hearing about type 9 or that you remember about type 9 that you'd like

to add to this since you are one? Well, I certainly think that idea of, you know, not rocking the boat, being willing to sort of put aside maybe what I want at certain times just for peace has certainly been a tendency of mine when I'm not at my best, for sure. And on the high side, you're probably a great interviewer because nines are mediators. And so you can look at the world through anybody's eyes, you know, and engage me where I am. So, okay, nines, maybe they aren't the best. Type one, which is also the belly center, uses this energy of the belly but channels it to follow their ideals.

So type one is the reformer. It's not my way or the highway. It's that there's a right way, and I'm going to do it the right way because it's black and white. And I only want to be the good wolf. And I never want to be the bad wolf. So I have to walk the straight and narrow. And preferably, I'd like to make you walk the straight and narrow too, so that anything I'm involved with will be right and good. And here's the rest of the interview with Belinda Gore. And here's the rest of the interview with Belinda Gore. This might be an overgeneralization, but are most people you would describe as fundamentalists?

Do they tend to be ones? Low-level ones. Yeah. Yep. Fundamentalism is, even though the individuals may not be, a lot of fundamentalists are lower-level type one, because there's that deep belief that they're right. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

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which we're all short of perfection. You know the song from, what is it, Man from La Mancha, to dream the impossible dream, to fight the unbeatable foe? That's type one. Okay. I will spare you singing the song, but I could. We'll roll that at the end of the show. Okay, all right, great. That sounds good.

Okay, so that's the belly center. Does that seem clear? Okay, so now we go to the heart. So the belly, when we're little kids, is kind of like, I've got a body, I'm figuring out how my body works, I'm showing up, here I am. The heart asks the question, so here I am, who am I? And the heart is the intelligence that allows us to relate to other people. So when we talk about being hard-hearted, usually that means not feeling connected to people, and warm-hearted is engaging. The interesting thing with the Enneagram is that we can do the same three patterns with these types.

So type two overdoes the heart center. It's sometimes called the helper. And it's like every problem, he's turning around to look at someone who we know as a two. All right? And she can come over and we'll ask a few questions in a moment. It's always, the default position is, I'm going to keep my heart open and love and give, and that will solve everything. Now, some people would say, that sounds pretty good. But what twos don't do is they don't take care of themselves.

They're always taking care of other people in hopes that you get it, that if I take care of you, now you're supposed to take care of me. But that is spoken. Yes. And so twos don't want to tell what their needs are and can get manipulative or things like that, you know, to try to get their needs met because they feel like it's a wrong thing to ask for those needs to be met. A question I have for you in general is, you know, when you take the test, you get scores back.

So you're 35 points on a 9 and 27 points on a 7. And so there's clearly a mix of things going on here. So are there people who are more firmly in type and other people who float between types more? Well, we all have a core type. It's a good question. We all have a place that is the focal point for our patterns around which our personalities have formed when we're young. But we all have all nine types in us. And so rather than really compartmentalizing... I think the geese have something that they'd like to... The twos, the geese who are twos have come to help us out with this. That because we have all

nine types in us, everybody here and listening probably can recognize a little bit of something of themselves in each of them. Do people change types? Because I think several years ago, I took an Enneagram, and I was a different type. It might be the level of awareness I have about myself to answer those questions. Yes, indeed. That first, the scores are only reflecting what you know about yourself. You know, so there's no magic that's kind of discerning what you really are. The scores are just telling you what you respond to in the questions. So the more self-awareness you have, the more likely you are to have an accurate top score. Usually in working

with people, we look at the top three scores to try to then see what really is underlying a person's orientation to the world. And if you can't find yourself in the lower aspects, at least once or twice in your life, it's probably not your core type. So I could find out that I'm not a nine, and then I'd be very disappointed since it's the best. I know. It's so difficult to have to manipulate these personality tests, isn't it? Yes. So we were talking about twos.

Okay. So let's move along to three. So if you remember, the pattern is overuses the center of intelligence. Now threes, like nines, can get the center in a box. So that means the heart center, threes, who are sometimes called the motivator, the performer in the sense of performing well, being success-oriented, either inside themselves have a lot of emotional reaction to who am I and trying to find their sense of value, but not wanting that to show. And so what they do is get outside the box and do perform according to what you say is going to be successful. So it's being out of touch with my own sense of identity

and my own sense of value. Type three is my core type. And so when I was three years old, for some reason, I could remember poetry. And I learned it was the night before Christmas. I was almost four. And my mother was a teacher and her friend who taught English. They decided to take me and put me on the desk in front of a class of seventh grade English, you know, 12-year-olds, so that I could recite Twas the Night Before Christmas so that Mrs. Knopp could say, see, if a three-year-old can do this, you can do it. Now, first, how terrified would I be of little girl? But I did it for my mother because I wanted her to be proud of me. Right. And it's taken me years to kind of process through not doing things so that other people will admire me or be proud of me, but do it because it's my heart's desire. Mm-hmm.

So after I sing The Impossible Dream, I'll recite what towards the night before Christmas. You only have to do those if you want to. Oh, thank you. Thank you for understanding. So then we go to type four. And type four, like one channels the belly center energy, the drive into their ideals. Type four channels the energy of the heart into their drive to find their identity.

And 4s are, some teachers call them the artists, but everybody can be artistic, you don't have to be a 4. But 4s are trying to find themselves and look for that through their creative expression. Fours typically are very sensitive in the heart, but in order to know themselves, they relate more to feelings than anything and can make up fantasies to have feeling responses to the fantasies to be able to say, oh, yeah, okay, this is who I am. I'm somebody who feels this. So sometimes they can seem like either drama queens or a little out of touch with sort of the nitty-gritty practical things in life.

The beauty of fours is their sensitivity to beauty and their appreciation for creative expression in the world. So those are the heart center types. Okay. Yeah. On to the head. On to the head. So belly center is here I am. Heart center is who am I?

What's my identity? What's my value? The head center is the only place where we can move beyond being right here, right now. And so the head is about, so where do I go from here and what can I trust? It's looking to the future. And so the head center actually can get over-involved with fear because what is the future but the unknown? So it's trying to figure out the future so I'll be safe. Type 5, as we go around the circle, 5s overuse the head center.

And so at the kind of average to low average, you've got geeks. You've got folks who are just, I'm going to be the expert in this and I'm going to find my security in knowing everything about this three square inches of reality. And if I'm in the midst of my expertise, don't mess with me. If we get outside my expertise, I'm going to go read a book and you guys, you know, talk among yourselves and I'm going to, you know, not be part of this. So, I mean, we have certainly the world of technology has lots of fives. And Bill Gates is an example of a person with a core type five who's gone to the

higher aspects. But if you've seen pictures of him when he was getting started, have you ever seen some of those pictures with those big thick glasses and the kind of nerdy clothes and the whole thing? Big Bang Theory is a great example of type fives. So everybody's kind of chuckling in the background. Actually, it's a television program that's done a lot of service, really, for fives so that we sort of get to know who they are. On to type six. Six, then, like nine and three, is kind of boxed in, but in the head center. So sixes are people who are the best worriers in the Enneagram, who kind of go over things over and over and over again in their heads.

Ruminators. Ruminators, troubleshooters, you know, what could go wrong and how can we fix it? Now, we all do that to some degree, but they're the experts at doing that. But then the sixth pattern is to get out of touch with this, to say, I can't trust my own thinking. to say, I can't trust my own thinking, so I'm going to shut down my thinking, and I'm going to look for the expert, the authority, the right book, the right school, the right whatever, and follow. I'll be a good follower. You find a lot of people who are oriented to type six in organizations that have a structure, because the rules are there and the authority is outlined. And so in the military, in religious life, in, you know, monasteries and so forth.

Also higher education. You know, there are a lot of really clear rules about where you are and what are you supposed to do in order to be able to move up in the hierarchy. Some corporations, but being good followers is really a key word. And then finally, we come around to type seven. And type seven never think of themselves as being head types because they're using all of the head energy to do what I call optimizing options because sevens are afraid of being bored or in pain or kind of stuck in stuff they don't like. So they're always thinking about creative things to do, interesting people to get to know, let's have more conversations, let's do this, and can be very talented, really, in doing a lot of different things. I think that's my second most dominant type. Okay. I know we have some sevens in this group, and you can hear a little bit of laughter in the background

as they identify themselves. I hope it's okay, but Carrie is a seven. And, you know, just having this wild idea and going, yeah, let's go for it. And so there's that energy that's very optimistic. And sevens are good entrepreneurs if they don't scatter themselves too broadly. So that runs us through the nine types. And like you said, each of those, you gave a very brief description. If we were to go into each one, we'd identify what they look like when they're thriving. Right. What was the word you used for when they're not thriving?

Constricted. Constricted. Constricted. And so it's really interesting to look at those and see what you look like in each of those ways. So how can people, knowing their Enneagram type, how can they use that to, for example, feed their good wolf? What are things that people can do with this to make their lives better? The Enneagram helps you know what you're really good at, what your inherent strength is. And so if you know that you're a good mediator, that you're good at getting along with a lot of different kinds of people, that you're good at peacemaking.

One, it can help you just in very practical ways to figure out, so what kind of work do you want to do? Right. Are you going to be in a high-conflict environment and enjoy yourself? I don't think so. So it helps in making that kind of decision. It also helps, I think, in celebrating the fact that we don't all have the same inherent strengths.

I'm not a great peacemaker, you know, but I'm a good motivator, you know. And so if I know my strength and you know your strength and we're working together, then we can support and make good use of our diversity instead of trying to have everybody be the same kind of person. And I think in some of the readings I've done on the Enneagram, you can actually look at your type and another person's type, say your partner's type, and see what sort of interactions

you might tend to have that could be positive and negative and things to look for and look out for. Yes. Because the Enneagram is a three-by-three model, we can organize the types in different ways. So I introduced them to you by doing the three centers of intelligence and the three types oriented toward each of those centers. Another way we can organize the types is by how we tend to go about just engaging with life. So the three styles are an assertive style, which is like, yeah, okay, let's do it. We'll figure it out as we go along. You know, we don't have to have a lot of rules. We don't have to have a lot of definitions. Let's just jump in. So type seven, type eight, which is, you know, full steam ahead, and type three, which is, you know, I'll reach in and figure out how to do just about anything. And so those three types

like to get in there and all the other types kind of go, well, settle down. And then there are three types that are sometimes called the cooperators. It doesn't mean they're cooperative, but that they want to figure out how things work together. And those types are types one, two, and six. So type one wants to clarify what are the rules. So type one wants to clarify what are the rules. So before we get started, let's just be very clear about what we're doing. Is it the right thing?

What are the rules we're going to follow? If they're not very healthy, how are we going to punish people when they break the rules? Type two, which interestingly is what are the rules for our interpersonal engagement? Remember, type two is a heart type, so it's about connection. But it's what are our assumptions about how we're interacting with each other? So twos who can seem so nice and gregarious and wanting to be helpful, if you break some of those basic rules about, you know, nice people don't do that, they can get very angry about it. Type six also wants to know what the rules are, but just because they want the expectations clarified, you know, and what's the hierarchy of authority and how do we go about it.

And when I do this with groups of emerging leaders, for instance, it's amazing because the three sevens and eights are like, boring. You know, why do we have to sit around and figure out what is the goal and how are we going to do things and who's going to do what. It's an agenda. Yeah. And, you know, like, well, maybe we get halfway in and you find out you're good at what I'm doing and, you know, you want to join my team and let's be flexible. But one, two, and six say, but let's have some structure because then we don't waste time. We know what's expected.

It's going to be easier on everybody. And I bet you're wondering what the nines are doing. So we have four, five, and nine who are called the withdrawn types. They will show up at meetings. They will listen to what the project is or what the overall agenda is, and then they want to go back and check it out with their inner world. You know, I always say nines have a happy place inside, and nines want to check out, does this disrupt my happy place too much? Fives want to know, you know, does this match my area of expertise? Fours want to know, can my identity, can I keep finding my identity here? And are we going, is this going to be meaningful to me? So they go away. They don't withdraw like wallflowers. But you see these other types are saying, well, you know, what's wrong with them?

Three, seven, and eight. It's like, let's get going. Where are you? Ones, twos, and sixes say you've dropped out. You know, you have responsibilities here. But four, five, and nine are just going to take some time for themselves, figure out where they stand with it all, and then they'll come back. So good managers need to know to give them that little bit of space to be able to do it. Does anyone know how long we have been going? I don't have the foggiest idea. Carrie, did we have a time we wanted to go? Nope. All right.

Well, settle in another three or four hours, and we should be done here. It's like, okay, let's settle her down here. We'll have a sunset that we're going to all want to watch. Okay. Whatever you guys want. Yeah. Okay. I want to shift off the Enneagram for a second and ask you about ecstatic body postures.

So you've written a book, two books, about ecstatic body postures. So what is that? Well, ecstatic body postures, the really short version, is that my friend and colleague Felicitas Goodman, who was an anthropologist, discovered in her research and sometimes sort of an animal head and a human body or vice versa. Those images are the documentation of pre-literate people, people who didn't have a written language, to give instructions for how we can use our bodies in specific ways to activate our natural capacity in our human nervous system, to move beyond the limitations of our personality, move beyond the limitations of our personality, to move beyond our minds, to experience the larger reality to some degree. It is a reality that is often defined by shamanism, the world of animal

spirits, and so forth. But the method itself really Felicitas identified from a long series of bits of research that she was doing. I love it. Carlos Castaneda called the spirits inorganic beings of awareness so that there is consciousness every place. And we call on aspects of that consciousness to be with us, to surround us. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

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...round us in the ritual. Do a breathing exercise to just quiet down the mind, hold a body posture, and then sound is what activates the nervous system to make that shift of orientation from the left brain order that we're accustomed to and really body position itself feeds the right brain, the sound activates the right brain, and we just very naturally go into expanded states of consciousness.

We know that's possible through psychotropic drugs. This is just a way to do it through sound in the body. Interesting. Well, I would certainly like to explore that more. Are you going to strike a ecstatic body pose for us here? Let's see if I can do one here. No. Now, isn't that interesting that I'm blocking on one of them? But, you know, just sitting like I've got my hands mixed up, but there's some that are just like lying on the floor with your hand over your head. There are not very many that are seated. Yep.

They're mostly standing or lying down, and they look so simple. And yet very subtle changes in the placement of the arms or the hands or the next back can activate some patterns are more for healing some are more for asking questions some teach us about you know the basics of death yeah i just discovered i've done it twice now floating are you familiar with no it's a new i guess it twice now, floating. Are you familiar with? No. It's a new, I guess it's not new, but it's, you go into this tank that is, has a huge amount of salt in it. And it basically, you can't hear anything, you can't see anything, and you float in exactly water that's the same temperature as your skin.

water that's the same temperature as your skin. But I think it's, again, another method of perhaps accessing other states or maybe turning off that frantic consciousness, which is kind of what you're describing there. So let's do one last question here. What lesson has taken you the longest to learn in your life? lesson has taken you the longest to learn in your life? To be brutally honest, because I have type three as my core type, I am deeply programmed to believe that my value is based on what I produce. And to understand that I am a human being with inherent value, even if I don't do anything. I get myself way overbooked. Because if somebody wants me to do something, it's not like I'm being helpful, but it's like, I have something of value to offer, you know. And so I tend to say yes too often.

tend to say yes too often, and to not feel guilty or uneasy. It's really more uneasy than guilty. Uneasy about taking time to do something that nobody else is going to know about or see. I'm making an art journal that I don't think anybody else but me is ever going to see in the whole world. And that's wonderful for me. But I get a little like, is this okay? What will become of me? It's like, it's okay.

Yeah, I think I've got three as my next most dominant. So I'm not very good at doing nothing. And you'll see, by the way, on the glyph of the Enneagram that nine and three are connected by a line. So there's a reason that we don't have to go into. But yes, I'm sure that you do have some tendencies to feel that. Well, I think that is a great place to go ahead and wrap up. So thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and talk with me. It's been a pleasure. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. you can learn more about Belinda Gore and this podcast at one you feed.net slash Belinda