The One You Feed - Brian Koppelman

Episode Date: March 18, 2014

This week on The One You Feed we have Brian Koppelman.Brian Koppelman is an American screenwriter, novelist, director, and producer. Best known as the co-writer of Ocean's Thirteen and Rounders, Koppelman has also produced films such as The Illusionist and The Lucky Ones as well as directed films such as Solitary Man.He was an A&R representative from 1988-1997 for such companies as Elektra Records, Giant Records, SBK Records and EMI Records, during which time he discovered singer songwriter Tracy Chapman and executive-produced her first album.He is also the creator of the excellent video series called The Six Second Screenwriter and the host of the new podcast, The Moment with Brian Koppelman.Brian is also one of the kindest guys out there. He is genuinely curious about life and people. We really enjoyed our conversation. In This Interview Brian and I Discuss...The One You Feed parable, although a bit later than usual.How he got his start as a screenwriter and writing his first script, Rounders.Why working everyday is so important.The power of momentum.Specific practices he does to feed his good wolf.How our intentions tell us a lot about which wolf we are feeding.The importance of art in a good life.A great fiction recommendation from Brian.How denying your creative side can turn you toxicHis new podcast, The Moment with Brian Koppelman.Some of his pivotal moments in life.How stand-up comedy helped him face his fears and finish the script he was stuck on.WTF and Marc Maron.Curiosity.Music we love.Brian Koppelman LinksBrian Koppelman homepageThe Six Second Screenwriting LessonsThe Moment with Brian Koppelman podcastBrian Koppelman IMDb profileBrian's article about WTF and Jim BreuerTwitter- @briankoppelmanCity of Thieves, Brian's book  recommendationSome of our most popular interviews you might also enjoy:Mike Scott of the WaterboysTodd Henry- author of Die EmptyRandy Scott HydeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When you're somebody who has it in you, this burning secret desire to do some kind of creative work, if you don't, you turn toxic. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter.

It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really no really dot com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign jason bobblehead the really no really podcast follow us on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts thanks for joining us our guest guest on this episode is Brian Koppelman. He's a Hollywood writer, director, and occasional producer. Some of his movies are Rounders, Solitary Man, Knockaround Guys, Ocean's 13, and The Illusionist. He creates the six-second screenwriting lessons

on Vine, which are a great inspiration for artists of any kind. He's also the host of an excellent new Grantland podcast called The Moment with Brian Koppelman. Welcome to the show, Brian. It's my pleasure to be here, guys. Thanks for having me. I thought we'd start off with maybe you telling us a little bit about how you became a screenwriter, because I think you came to it a little bit later than some people do. And I'm curious the journey that got you there. I'm happy to talk about it. I'm so glad you didn't hit me with the what the expression, the one you feed means, because I've been really stressing about having to answer it. I'll come back to it. Don't worry.

But I became a screenwriter right around when I turned 30. I got to a point in my life where it became clear to me that what I was doing wasn't – I wasn't really living to what I felt was, uh, you know, like the fullest of my capacity. And I had just had, um, when I was 29, um, my son was born, uh, our son, our first child. And I realized I wanted to be the kind of dad who would come home at night and tell his kids to chase their dream and to, you know, that, that it's true that you can, if you work hard enough and are clear enough, you could be anything you want to be. And I realized I wasn't living that. And so I wouldn't be able to really say it. And I didn't want to turn bitter. And I knew that I had to be creating. I didn't know if it meant I had to be a screenwriter or a novelist or a stand-up comedian. But I knew I had to start really creating for my life and made the decision to do it.

And shortly thereafter, I went and spoke to my lifelong best friend, David Levine, and he was working as a bartender and was writing. And we made a commitment that we were going to figure out how to write something together. And soon within a few months of that, I walked into a poker club late at night and I left that club. I cleaned out, uh, and I left that club in the middle of the night. I called Dave and I said, I think I know the setting for this for this first movie that we're going to write. And that was that was Rounders, right? It was. And we we made this commitment to one another. We researched it. We spent a lot of time in the clubs. We really read every book on poker that existed and watched every videotape of every World Series of poker.

This is before there was a whole card cam. watched every videotape of every World Series of Poker. This was before there was a whole card cam. And then once we were ready to write, we committed to meeting every morning before I would go to work and after he attended a bar. And we worked for two hours a day, five days a week, and never missed a day until we finished the screenplay. And then did you have a, you guys were not in the Hollywood infrastructure. How challenging was it for you to sell the script? You know, ours is a weird story because, um, David had met a young manager when Dave got out of college, he went out to Hollywood. He worked for a couple of years as an assistant and, um, had met some people, met a young manager who'd never sold anything. Maybe he had sold one TV movie. And he sent our script to that guy, uh, whose name is Seth Jarrett. And Seth said,

I know this is a movie I can sell this. And, um, it got rejected by every single agency in Hollywood. Seth got it to big people at every agency. They all rejected it. But then very shortly thereafter, um, he got it in the hands of a producer, a woman named Tracy Falco, who worked for, uh, this director, Ted Demme, who's, who's was a great guy who died 10 years ago. And, uh, and they got it into Harvey Weinstein's hands. And so, although for us, it felt like nothing but rejection because we just had a ton of rejection quickly, the truth is we finished the script on January 1st or 2nd of 1997, and then we were in production. It was purchased by Miramax on March 3rd, and we were in production December 15th of the same year. So ours was not a typical story, nor a typical ride. Yeah. That's, that's pretty quick. Yeah. It was, uh, it was really,

you know, it was amazing. I mean, in a way Dave and I were, you know, I was 30 and he was, I guess, 28 and turned 29 when, when we were doing it, we weren't like people who, who were just out of college and had this, you know, idea they were going to write. I mean, it, we really approached it with an incredible amount of focus and had this idea they were going to write. I mean, we really approached it with an incredible amount of focus and determination. And I think we were at it for really the right reasons, which was we found a story we were dying to tell. We knew this was our chance to really be storytellers. And we really gave it everything that we had. And you've got the six second screenwriting lessons that you do. And a lot of those seem to revolve around sort of exactly what you just said, which is about just doing the

work, about committing yourself, being disciplined and doing it no matter what. That seems to be one theme that crops up pretty regularly. Well, it's one of the only things that you have control over, right? I mean, if you want to be in the arts, so much of it, the way your work is received, who chooses to read it, the mood that they're in when they read it, you can't control any of that. You can try to improve your odds various ways, but the, but one thing you can control is showing up every day and working with focus and passion and discipline. And you can choose your subject matter and you can choose the art form. So it's like, if you make those choices and you put everything you have into, you know, doing those, you're just giving yourself the best

chance to, a few different things happen. One, you stop being so result oriented. You become really focused on doing the work if you're there every day. That doesn't mean late at night, you know, in the afternoon walking around, you don't daydream. We all daydream. We all sort of, I think it's a healthy thing to visualize and think about, you know, what, what can, what can happen positively. But you take so much of the fear and insecurity away by, by doing it and every day. And, and so I just found that because I was, I mean, one thing I didn't say about why it took me so long, why I was 30 and reached this crisis point is I was a blocked writer. I was a blocked creative. I was a, what Julia Cameron, uh, who wrote the artist way calls a shadow artist. I worked in the music business. I was an A&R guy. I was, uh,

a producer in the studio with artists. And I always felt though I should be doing it, but I was terrified to do it. I was terrified of not being able to, you know, terrified of not being able to, uh, you know, capture what was in my head and somehow get it out onto the page. And so it's never been an easy thing for me still. It's not easy to sit down and do the work all the time, but I find if you do it on Monday, it's easier, you know, when you get there on Tuesday. And so I, if I can, you know, if I can help people understand and make that initial breakthrough of, Hey, I'm going to do it, uh, every day, I think, I think it's a very useful thing to do.

Yeah. That, that's a theme that we, I, we seem to keep hearing the same sorts of themes on the show as we talk about this idea of feeding your good wolf. And that is one of them that comes up a lot, which is just doing the work, whether you think about it, whether you feel like it, whether that work being your creative work, whether that work be the things that you know you need to do to take care of yourself, doing that work. And then the other one that you mentioned there that I think is so important is the idea of momentum. If you get moving, it's, it's so much easier to keep moving and getting started from a dead stop is really challenging. It's true. I mean, that's something that I took from, uh, I mean, if you've, if you've watched my videos or, um, you know, the six second screenwriting things are read in my blog, you'll know that I'm really not somebody who believes in the idea of gurus or who believes that there's some authority that you need to give you permission. But I will say for me, when I was around that age,

I read Awaken the Giant Within by Tony Robbins. And I found that a lot of the stuff Tony talked about, about making a decision and then taking action and then taking action every day was exactly what I needed to hear and it's all about creating that kind of positive momentum for yourself. You know, it doesn't mean that you're gonna succeed, right?

It doesn't mean that you're gonna have the particular gift at the thing, but when you get in the habit of being able to focus and commit, then when you find that thing that marries your passion to your ability, you'll be able to manifest it in a way that otherwise you might not be able to. Yeah, exactly. And I like what you said there, because that discipline does translate from one thing to the other. As you learn to be more disciplined in one area of your life, you can apply it to others. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth.

Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you two? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. God bless

you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead.

It's called Really No Really and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Not to induce too much stress, but I've got to go back to the wolf parable because that's what the show is. And I've abdicated my duties as host at this point. That's what my partner has given me to look for. So the podcast is called The One You Feed, and it is based on the parable of the two wolves where one of them is – where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. And he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us. inside of us. One is a good wolf, and it represents things like kindness and love and bravery. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like hatred and greed and sorrow. And the grandson stops and he thinks and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the

grandfather says, the one you feed. So I am interested in what that means to you in your life and in your work that you do? Well, I do think it's, it's, uh, it's actually a very clear parable. I mean, that's why when I, I was kind of joking when I said I was stressing about answering it. But what I, what I mean is that I think that the answers I've heard on, on your show are fairly consistent in a way. And, um, because you're, you've chosen to mostly interview people who have found a way to thrive at something and have found a way to, um, you know, to feed, to feed the good wolf to the best of their ability. You know, in, in Hollywood where I sometimes work, um, the town is trying to feed the other wolf all the time. So, um, I mean, I'll tell you the practical things I do, right? I think what everyone says on your show is true about focusing, you know,

on the work, focusing outer, um, uh, you know, keeping for me, like as a creator, not being self-indulgent, but I do like certain very practical things. I meditate twice a day. I practice transcendental meditation. Um, I take long walks. I journal every day. I spend a lot of time with my family. I, I, I, you know, I, I do all sorts of stuff to keep me like listening to the good voice and to nurture and feed it to the best of my ability. And so that's, you know, what, what that means to me. I mean, I think becoming a parent, if you are a person who has a heart at all, I mean, my, my, my wife and my two kids are truly the focus of my existence. And, you know, that immediately makes you sort of like outer directed and makes you feed the good wolf because you, you have these examples in front of you, these, uh, these, uh, you know, blank slates who are

going to learn everything from what you do and how you do it. And so, you know, to me, it's simple that I would just say to me, it's a, it's been a simple thing, um, you know, to, to try to, to try your, my best to be good. Yeah, it is simple, but as someone once said, there's a big difference between knowing something and doing something. I do think it's true, by the way. I think the parable is true, and you can see examples of it everywhere. And by the way, I think all of us do feed the other wolf from time to time, right? I mean, we all, I think it'd be a lie to say that

you never do anything out of a less than noble intention. You know, and when, you know, you do what I do for a living and for, you know, you, I think it's important to stay just aware of, of why you do it, what you're trying to connect to. Uh, and I think if you do that, it, it, it enables you to, to tune down those other instincts or ideas. I agree. And that's a large part of the reason for doing the show was these ideas. There's nothing groundbreaking or revolutionary in them. It's remembering to do it consistently and remembering to go back to those things that I struggle with. It's easy to get carried away with things that don't serve us very well, and I need the reminder. It's amazing to me that I do as many times as I've learned it, but that seems to be my default pattern. That seems to be my default pattern. Yeah, well, we all, what do you do?

Do you, what kind of practice do you, like, do you meditate? Do you walk? Do you run? How do you, how do you handle it? Yeah, actually, I am, I am in the midst of the best, best I've ever been at meditating. I've been an on and off meditator for, for years. And I seem to be in the middle of a really good everyday streak, which I've never been able to do consistently. So that's a big one. I think that exercise is another big one for me. It makes a dramatic difference in my mental state. I used to do it, I think, because I

cared about how I looked. And now it's far more about I care about how I feel and exercise is one of the best ways to do that. I mean, the intention behind that is a great sort of illustration of the idea, right? It's that you're doing the same thing, but the reason for doing it completely changes in a way which wolf you're feeding. Not that there's anything wrong about trying to look good, but I mean, that's, I think, a really great answer. Oh, the other things that I do, you know, I try to surround myself with like, um, art, broadly defined art that moves me. So I try to listen to, I listen to great music. Uh, I listen to podcasts that really, uh, in some way I have the capacity to move or engage me. I'm always reading this year, I made a big promise to myself to read more fiction. I grew up, fiction was like a central part of my life. And then as you get a

little bit older and you write for a living, sometimes it's easier to read nonfiction. It engages you in a different way. And I really committed my one New Year's resolution. I don't believe in them, but the one that I sort of promised I made was to try to read at least one really good book of fiction every month. So to read 12 books this year, not nonfiction. And I can tell you already that's having huge ramifications for me in a positive way. Yeah, that's a great idea. I've been reflecting on that, that I used to read fiction so much and got a lot out of it. And over the last several years, everything I read is nonfiction of some sort for various different reasons. And I, I've realized that I miss that

just reading a book of fiction that, that is good and that illuminates, um, the human condition in, in a little bit different way than, than I would normally think about it or see it. Have either of you guys ever read this book called, um, City of Thieves by David Benioff? I haven't. He's, uh, he and his partner, Dan Weiss, are the guys who created and write, um, uh, Game of Thrones. But, uh, Benioff's novel, um, is an incredible book set in Russia during the war. And, um, it's really, I gotta say it's, it's, uh, it speaks to your themes in an incredibly beautiful way. And I, uh, I've never recommended the book to anyone who didn't

make it a point to thank me and then send it to 10 people. So that's my recommendation of a book for you guys. And for the people listening city of thieves, David Benioff. Excellent. You'll thank me. We'll, we'll put it on the list. I wanted to circle back to something that you talked about there when we were discussing the wolf parable. And you talked about that it's very easy when you have a family to sort of give you that outer direction and do all that. But I've also read a blog post that you have, and I think this is a paradox that's difficult to balance, which is why I want to talk more about it. You talk about how finding time to do your art is really important, and how sometimes that's initially when you jump onto a creative project

seen as being selfish, and you had a slightly different view of it than it being selfish. And I wonder if you could walk us through that. Sure.'m so lucky my wife is a novelist and a great novelist named Amy Koppelman and her books you should get to on Amazon they're dark but really powerful and worth your time but when I Amy was constantly encouraging me to do this and I mean we've been married like 22 years like 22 years. And so we were newly pretty new, you know, not so newly married, married a couple of years when I said, Hey, I'm, I'm really thinking I'm going to do this. And she kind of said, finally, you know, and she cleared out this storage space underneath our apartment, really just a storage space that had like a slop

sink in it. And, uh, said, this is where you're, this is your office to write this in before you go to work. And Dave came over every day and we worked in this lit, I can said, this is what your, this is your office to write this in before you go to work. And Dave came over every day and we worked in this lit, I can't even, I mean, there's a picture somewhere. It is really just the, the, the last place you would think would be your salvation, but it really became this, um, incredible oasis for us to do this work. And so what I, what I say in that blog post, um, which is up atcoppelman.com, is that when you're somebody who has it in you, this burning secret desire to do some kind of creative work, if you don't, you turn toxic. And that, in fact, that toxicity is not just damaging to you, but it's damaging to everybody around you. And so that even if your kids, your family, they don't know what the reason is, you start to turn.

And so by doing the creative work, the good thing, whether that's running a marathon, whatever your thing is, it gets rid of, it's the one thing that kind of cleanses that toxicity. So that then the time that you have to be around everybody, you're not secretly wishing that you were doing your creative thing. But I didn't face that resistance from the people closest to me. I only was rewarded for it, but that's because I, you know, made this incredibly lucky decision. When you're, when you get married young, I was 25. I think it's so much luck to just happen to choose the right person. Um, and I made an incredibly good choice. Uh, and so I've only had ever support for that, but I have seen how people around creative people react and the way it's not just skepticism. What it is,

is it's triggering something in them very often too, which is, you know, when you finally start to do it, you see that, that people will, it will scare them because they're afraid and you're kind of calling them out even if you don't mean to call them out. That's why it can be challenging to do, but it's worth it. Be an example. I can't tell you how many people, once Dave and I wrote our first screenplay and sold it, how many people I know suddenly decided they could go do it and tried to do it. So I guess that's why. That's what I'm talking about in that blog post. Does that make sense? Oh, it makes total sense.

That toxicity and resentment really is very easy to creep into life if you're not, at least for me, if I'm not doing some of the things that are important to me. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening?

Really? No, really. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really?

No, Really? And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Speaking of creative outlets, you recently launched a new podcast called The Moment with Brian Koppelman, which is excellent. You've had great guests so far, and I wanted to turn it on you. I wanted to ask you, the podcast is about seminal moments in people's lives where sort of everything hung in the balance and the

direction they chose to go was really, really critical. And so I'd like to ask you what the moment was or a moment for you that you wanted to discuss that would be on your podcast. Well, it's a great question. It's harder for me to say, you know, one of the things I do on the moment is I kind of guess at it, what I think, because I think it's difficult. There are various inflection points in your life as you look back and where things could go one way or another. I mean clearly deciding to write Rounders was one. I mean there's no bigger one than the moment I met my wife, you know, or when our son was born. I do try to look at like, so I guess moments in people's careers.

So if we're just talking about sort of a professional, you know, a moment in my career, one, I'll tell you one, is when I was writing Solitary Man, which is a movie that Dave and I directed and that I wrote. It took me like four years to write it. And, um, uh, it was the only movie that I wrote by myself and it was very important and personal idea that I had. And I was really stuck. I was stuck. I was like 60 pages in and all of the old fears resurfaced and I was really blocked. We were working on oceans 13 at the time. And, um, so everything was going really well, but I had this story. I couldn't find a way to, to, to break through. And I, I realized I had stopped doing morning pages around then, which is journaling every day. And, um, and in, in through journaling and, and through, uh, therapy too, like I realized that I still part of me felt like, uh, I didn't,

uh, I didn't deserve to be doing this. I wasn't, uh, somebody who, um, was an art, you know, truly an artist enough to try to write something like this. And had I, had I allowed it to wither, um, something really crucial would have been damaged. And so what I finally did, uh, the thing that finally broke through it is I, I started doing standup comedy. I was 40 years old. I'd always wanted to do stand-up. And through the journaling and realizing I was blocked, I realized that I had never chased the thing that was the scariest to me, which was doing stand-up. And I just said, screw it.

And I started going to open mics. And I was somebody who had already made five movies or something. I had an entire show business career. And it was humiliating in the beginning because you bomb in the beginning. And I went out there and I just – I mean I was sweating through my shirt like Albert Brooks in broadcast news. And then slowly it stopped being – the fear turned to this really fun fear, this fun, exciting, like bungee cord kind of thing. Well, he knows what I'm talking about this fun bungee cord thing. And, uh, and through doing it, I did it for a year and a half, like four nights a week,

I went out in the clubs and I ended up passing at a club and getting 10 good minutes together. And through doing that somehow through breaking through that fear, um, through like literally connecting with an audience and making them laugh and then, you know, bombing the next night and then the next night making people laugh. Uh, I got to a place where I created a new kind of safety net for myself and I was somehow able to figure out how to finish writing that, that script. And, you know, that script. I wrote that script. Dave and I, within a very short time, we were able to cast Michael Douglas in it.

We have found producers who were able to get the money together to make it. And that movie ended up on Roger Ebert's year-end best list, on the New York Times year-end best list. It's a small little art movie, but I will tell you it, it really was for, for me and for us, like an artistic breakthrough. And, and, and I can't tell you how easy it would have been for it to, for me not to write it. All I was doing was not writing it. And I took like this drastic action in a way and, uh, you know, kind of changed everything. Do you think that, uh, you had been

writing everything you'd written up to that point had been with your partner. Do you think that you felt like by yourself that there was something different and that was what stand up partially was, was you, there was nobody out there to catch you? Sure. Yeah. I think that's really smart. Um, yeah, Dave's an incredible partner. Um, a great writer, an incredible steady presence. And yeah, I knew that the two of us were writing these things together. But sure, it was, yes, writing it alone and saying, like, I can really do this thing by myself. I can really be a creative force, though I knew we would direct the movie together, which is what I wanted. We're really partners for life in this creative endeavor.

I knew we would direct the movie together, which is what I wanted. We're really partners for life in this creative endeavor. Um, but sure. And, and I'm sure that the idea of just being there and like these people staring at me and having to, having to deal with the rejection in that way was really the gift of it. Wasn't, you know, making them laugh was super fun, but the gift of it was learning that I could bomb and get up the next morning and be fine. Yep. That is a pretty profound lesson. Speaking of stand-up comics, you have a, I don't know if I would call it an obsession, but you're very interested in Marc Maron, and you recently interviewed him on your podcast, and you did a great job. I'm curious what it is about him that you are drawn so strongly to. And even to turn it more on you, what it is that's in you that responds to him so strongly?

Because we kind of know what he's about. What is it in you that's reacting to him? I'm really obsessed with WTF more than I am with Mark. I think that WTF is an incredible creation. Um, and especially because I think Mark is so can be challenging to people. And, you know, we talked about on the episode of the moment, the fact that for a long time in his career, he didn't care about, he would get up on a comedy stage and not care about making them laugh. In fact, he wanted to push them away. And, um, but somehow on WTF, he was, and I wrote about this on Grantland, you know, I wrote this thing about when he had Jim Brewer on a show and that to me

is the best articulation of my thoughts. I mean, I spent a lot of time writing that, uh, article on Grantland because I was trying to figure it out for myself. Uh, I was trying to understand what is it about WTF? And I think I knew I was going to try to do this podcast and I was trying to figure it out for myself. Uh, I was trying to understand what is it about WTF? And I think I knew I was going to try to do this podcast and I was trying to see, you know, and I, I, I think it's Mark's bravery, really the fact that he's, he's willing to, to not look good. He's willing to accept. And in fact, to display his own ugliness in order to connect with the person sitting across from him. And, and I think he got there in a really difficult way. Um, I don't think it was an easy ride for him, but I'm not, I gotta say, I'm, um, I'm no more, I lead always with my curiosity. That's been like the, uh, like the cornerstone of everything good

I've ever done creatively. Whether it was when I was young and I had this incredible good fortune to discover the singer-songwriter Tracy Chapman and make her first album. Or whether it was walking into that poker club and wanting to know what made those people think.

So the way that Mark is able to engage with people and really dive down deep into sort of what it means to be two different individuals trying to form some relationship and grapple with that is just really compelling. But I mean, I'm as interested in the, you know, public radio show Snap Judgment as I am in WTF. And there are, you know, I listen to a lot of different podcasts. But yes, I'm fascinated by Mark. But honestly, no more than I'm fascinated by Mario Batali, who was my second guest, or Chuck Klosterman, who I interviewed and who the episode is up today.

My rule for my podcast is I'm only interviewing people about whom I'm truly curious. I won't just book people for the sake of it, ever. Yep. And I'm looking forward to hearing the interview with Chuck. I think that'll be a great one. And I think you're doing, the thing I like about your podcast is you are digging with people, really trying to sort of get to the next level with them. And I think you've been doing a great job. I really enjoy the show. Oh, thank you. Well, thanks. I mean, the idea of the moment of really trying to get in to what makes them who they are. I mean, in a similar way

to what you guys are after, you know, I'm after when I talk to these people, you know, people who do great things, they process differently. They're able to take the information in that maybe would make the rest of us feel defeated. And they're somehow able to put it through a filter that makes them empowered. And I'm, I'm interested in figuring that out with people, whether it's in great moments where a lot of us would go like, you know, Wile E. Coyote, Oh no, there's no ground under me. Uh, and then fall or whether it's in a bad, you know, uh, a bad moment where we would say, well, I better just throw in the towel. Somehow people who accomplish great things, um, are able to,

you know, they were able to process differently. Yep. So one other question I wanted to, and maybe we can, we can wrap up with this is one to talk with you. We've exchanged some, some things on Twitter and different things. I think we have a very, very similar musical taste. I think we probably grew up at the same time listening to the same bands. I'm really curious what you are, what sort of newer music that's getting made today are you really interested in? Well, great. I love talking about this. This could be its own podcast. Well, you know that I'm a, I mean, I just think Jason Isbell made the album of the last, whatever it is, five years. Yeah, it's insane how good it is. I think that Southeastern is every single song is just a knock.

There's not just incredible melodies and just stunningly beautiful lyrics. So I mean, to me, his album just stands above pretty much everything else. I love The Hold Steady probably my favorite current rock band I think the combination of Tad Kubler and Craig Finn is really amazing I really dig the Sun Kill Moon

album I think it's really strong record I don't know if you guys have heard it I've heard a couple songs off of it I like that alright now you're making me look right now what i've been listening to today but uh you know as i said on twitter i'm sure you you saw the the fact that rem doesn't exist anymore is a constant uh horrible disappointment to me um they're my you know my favorite band of all time uh Probably Dylan, Lou Reed, R.E.M., Springsteen are the things that I just go back to over and over again.

Those are pretty solid choices. Somebody I've really been into a lot the last few years, and we just interviewed him last week. I'm not sure when the episode will come out, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work. It's Frank Turner. No, I don't know his stuff. He's an English folk rock singer, uh, who I I'm absolutely, uh, in love with. I think it's, I think he's making some of the best music around today. So it based on our shared musical tastes, I think that might be one you'd like. Oh, I'll check that out for sure. I made a playlist the other day of, um, artists that I want to get to know better because I heard something and I,

but I don't know their stuff well enough. So I had Kurt, Kurt Vile is on there and, uh, there's that guy, Robert, I don't know his last name right now. Um, I'm going to just look really quickly and tell you guys who's writes beautiful songs. And someone said to me, Oh, you love Jason Isbell. You, you got to hear this guy. And, uh, and I got the album and I thought, yeah, that guy's terrific too. I also love this songwriter. Do you ever hear this? If you like Isbell, do you know the songwriter named Slade Cleaves from Austin, Texas? I have heard, I know the name, but I don't know that I've heard the

music. Yeah. He's great. He has an album called Wishbone that's really special. Worth your time. He's a great singer-songwriter, too. So yeah, those are some of the things that I'm digging now. Yeah, music is a definite way to feed the good wolf for me. It's one of the big ones that keeps me moving. Me too, man. Me too. And I got to say, I see it in the house. My daughter loves Taylor Swift and I completely understand it. I think because Taylor's so popular, it's easy to write her off, but talk about someone who encourages her audience to feed the good wolf and who's willing to be honest and true in her work. I really think she is. And I think it's a really empowering thing for particularly young, you know, young women and girls. And I got to say, her music plays in my house so much that I probably know her music better than, you know, almost anybody else's music somehow. And I'm always interested in music that is, to some degree, decent role model for them. I know that might be asking a lot in certain cases, but some of the music today, I guess at any point, is so negative that I hope that I always... How old are they?

I have a son and a stepson. They're both 15. Freshmen in high school. Have you heard Kacey Musgraves? That woman who sings, uh, she's got that song. Follow your arrow. I love that song. Yeah. That's a great one. I think. And, uh, my daughter turned me onto that one and it's great. Oh, the guy's name I was trying to think of before is Robert Ellis. I don't even think I've ever heard of him. Yeah. So this friend of mine who really knows music, this guy, Scott Rosenberg, actually wrote the movie, beautiful girls and a whole bunch of other movies. He's a music freak. And he was like, if you love Isbell, check out Robert Ellis. I've only listened to the album a few times, but he's right. It's a beautiful, beautiful record. Excellent. Well, I will certainly check

that out. Well, I could probably have this conversation all night, but we are going to be disciplined and stick to our roughly half-hour podcast. Great. Well, it's fun talking to you. Yeah, thanks, Brian. I really enjoyed it. Good luck with the show and whatever movie you've got coming out next. Thank you very much. Nice talking to you. Thanks. Bye. you can find out more about this podcast and brian koppelman at one you feed.net slash brian koppelman