The One You Feed - Byron Katie- The Work

Episode Date: March 24, 2015

This week we talk to Byron Katie about questioning our thoughtsByron Kathleen Mitchell, better known as Byron Katie is an American speaker and author who teaches a method of self-inquiry known as "The Work of Byron Katie" or simply as "The Work". She is married to the writer and translator Stephen Mitchell. She is the founder of Byron Katie International (BKI), an organization that includes The School for the Work and Turnaround House in Ojai, California.    In This Interview Katie and I Discuss...The Four Questions of The Work For more information visit our websiteSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It doesn't matter if it's a dream or not, when we're believing it, it's real. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor,

what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really no really dot com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign jason bobblehead the really no really podcast follow us on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts thanks for joining us our guest today is Byron Kathleen Mitchell, better known as Byron Katie, an American speaker and author who teaches a method of self-inquiry known as the work of Byron Katie, or simply as the work. She is married to writer and translator Stephen Mitchell. Byron is the founder of Byron Katie International, or BKI, an organization that includes the School for the Work and Turnaround House in California.

Here's the interview. Hey everybody, before we get started, I just wanted to say a little bit more about the one-on-one work that I'm doing. If you're the kind of person who says things like, I'm just not a motivated person, or I always start things and never finish, then send an email to eric at one you feed.net. And let's talk about it because that's not the kind of person you are. That's just the behaviors you've been doing. Thanks. Hi, Katie, welcome to the show. Thank you, Eric. Good to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to get you on. I've heard I've had interestingly, a bunch of listeners who have suggested you as a guest many times.

So I thought, it's finally time. Let's do it. So I'm glad you were able to find the time. Well, that was easy to do. I appreciate the good that you do on this program. And it's my privilege to contribute in any way. Well, thank you. So we'll start the show off like I always do with the parable of the two wolves, and I'll then ask you kind of what that means to you.

So there's the parable of two wolves where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson, and he says, In life, there are two wolves inside of us. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second. He looks at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to ask you how that parable applies to you in your life and in the work that you do? Well, you know, it's the one we feed, if it's the terrible one. And to my way of thinking, it's equally as good as the other one. And here's what I mean by that. one and here's what I mean by that. I use that as, it's like I identify that as the very thing that I need to move in front of me to question. I need to question anything that would oppose

what is good. Interesting. So it shows me the stumbling block. It shows me why I'm in a bad mood. It shows me why I'm depressed. It shows me why my, let's say, it's a thinking disorder. So now that it's identified, like maybe I had the thought, she doesn't care about me. She never liked me. And then I get, you know, wrapped up in this, and maybe it's even a family member, but there's a lot around that happening, let's say. So the emotions wake me up to I'm on, you know, I'm wolfing. I'm wolfing out of a direction that is going to go anywhere other than depression or stress. anywhere other than depression or stress. So now that it's identified,

I can question it using this inquiry that is my life to offer to people. So I question it, and the next time that wolf arrives, I see it, it's laughable, if I notice it at all, because I'm awake to what is true and what is not. And it leaves me in the position of life with this other wolf, the wolf where the decisions I make are effortlessly good for me, good for you, you know, good for my family, good for the world.

Great. So let's jump into the work, which is actually what you're, I'm not using that term generically, that's what you call what you do, the work. And it's a, you know, if I was to sum it up really briefly, it's a method of questioning our own thoughts to determine whether they're real or not. So can we just start walking through what that four-step process looks like? Yes. Let's say I had the thought, she doesn't care about me. And I don't even know I'm having it. This is just real life. I'm just really sure of it. She

doesn't care about me. Now, the stress I'm experiencing or the resentment or whatever, I'm going to feel it and maybe I'm just doing the dishes. And this is all happening while I'm doing the dishes. So she doesn't care about me. And so I feel the stress. So now I'm going to question it. care about me. And so I feel the stress. So now I'm going to question it. She doesn't care about me. The first question is, is it true? The second question is, can I absolutely know that it's true? She doesn't care about me. And then the third question is, how do I react? What happened the moment I believed that thought? And I noticed I was doing my dishes and I was loving what is and all of a sudden that story hit me. Now I'm not even in the room. I'm in the past or future. I'm not even where I really am. I'm not even where I really am.

So then I notice what happened when I believed the thought. And then the fourth question and the last question is, who would I be without the thought, she doesn't care about me? And then that takes me back to where I really am, woman doing the dishes, looking out through the window at the sky and the trees, or at my next door neighbor, or, you know, I'm present. And then I invite people to turn it around to find opposite, she doesn't care about me. When I find an opposite, she does care about me. So now I begin to notice, what does that mean to me?

She does care about me. And I begin to contemplate that and experience that and those moments when she was caring and get into some of that reality. And it's not to change my mind. It's just to notice that it takes me back to a balance. And then another turnaround, I don't care about her. So I look at those situations. Where is it that I wasn't caring about her?

Where is it that I said or did something that was unkind? And I just notice that. And I just noticed that. And I just noticed it as I'm doing the dishes. And then there's another turnaround. The original is she doesn't care about me. Another turnaround is I don't care about me. Well, in that moment, where is it I wasn't caring about myself? In that moment with her and in the moment of doing the dishes,

where is it that I wasn't caring about myself? Well, it's not kind to throw myself into a state of stress and resentment when I'm simply doing the dishes in this wonderful moment now. This really, this state of grace. And basically, it leads me to educate myself to what I'm believing. Einstein said, an unquestioned life is not worth living and i've socrates good thank you for that and i've come to see that it's you know in in my experience completely true it is to believe what we think is is um the cause of all war you know prior to investigation

we can we we can be you, we're wiser than that. And when we question what we believe, what's left is that wisdom, you know, the other wolf. I call it our true nature. And so how do we use that? Like that example makes sense because I might be totally making up that story, right?

That, okay, she doesn't care. It could be just something someone told me even that I believed. What about situations, I'm trying to think of something we could play with that might be a little bit more challenging. I heard part of something that was on your podcast and it got cut off. I don't know what happened, but you were talking with a woman who had lost her daughter. Because if I'm being honest, where I always go with these things is I go, well, that works for, you know, yeah, I came home from work, and I misinterpreted my wife's glance, right? But then I go to, but how does it work on,

you know, more intense things? And I would have loved to hear that end of that conversation with her. On one hand, I agree very much that how we feel is very much the product of our thoughts. But I don't know, like if you lose somebody, is grieving a, is that an inappropriate response? Is that a... No, it's not inappropriate at all. This seems radical, but I've really tested it and come to understand that there's nothing wrong with grief.

It's just that I've come to understand that grief is the effect of what I'm thinking and believing in the moment. So it's an egoic state, no matter how loving and kind we see grief to be. So ultimately, is that sort of pointing at that idea of we are not these individual selves that we think we are? Well, yes. Yes, on one hand or on both hands. But, you know, if I'm grieving, if someone I love dies and I'm grieving

and I really explore that, I come to see that it's all about me. They won't be here for me. And so I am just this puddle of egoic tears getting sympathy from everyone I know if they really care about me, if they're really sensitive so this egoic thing is being is being uh nurtured by the people around me because we we really don't know how you know what what to do with it other than that so it's really it's a kind act but through this exploration you know questioning my thoughts um in these moments of grief. I've come to see that it's all about me, and that stops me from being there for other people who are still frightened of death.

That stops you from being there for them in what way? To comfort them, to listen to them, to feed them, to clean their house, to serve in any possible way that I can. For me, it's a dream. And I know the pain of that and the sorrow of that. It doesn't matter if it's a dream or not. When we're believing it, And the sorrow of that. It doesn't matter if it's a dream or not. When we're believing it, it's real. And just because we get clear doesn't mean we get stupid.

You know, our nature is to serve and to love and to be there no matter what unconditionally. I mean, what would stop me but fear? Right. And I think it's interesting. We had a guest on early and we were talking about that idea of when you have a transcendental view or that idea of duality falls away and you sort of see the world as maybe a dream or whatever you would call it. And what he was talking about is how, on one hand, that experience is everything. And then on the other hand, you still live most of your time in what does appear to be, you know, in the world that most of us experience. And is your belief that by doing the work consistently, you see that other world more

often? I can never see the world. and and is your belief that by doing the work consistently you see that other world more often i can never see the world i see the world as i imagine it to be and and so you know if you had a dream eric where it was you were asleep at night and you were dreaming and you were so awake to it. You were actually navigating through it. You understood it. And then there are some dreams that you have no control in and you're really happy you woke up. Or there are some really pleasant dreams that you didn't navigate in and you're just happy that it was a sweet dream. in and you're just happy that it was a sweet dream.

Well, in my experience, living out of this question mind, I'm always in the dream and I'm always navigating sweetly through it. There's no little blip or, and let's say there is like this major blip or just a little one. In other words, unhappiness or fear, any of that. I just identify what it is. I put it on a judge your neighbor worksheet. Those are always free on the work.com. And then I question what I was believing in that situation. And I set myself free. And I don't do it to set myself free. I do it because I want to understand what's true and what's not,

what is real and what isn't. I have a right to that as a loving, caring human being. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really.

Yeah, really. No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What are some of the main obstacles that would stop people from getting benefit out of doing the work or getting the full benefit out of it? of doing the work or getting the full benefit out of it?

Well, the one that comes to mind is really, is your mind open to it or not? And so if my mind weren't open to it, that's a dead end. But if my mind is open to the questions, then every time it's like magic, it's like a miracle, it's like the secret to life. It's just all there.

It's all there if your mind turns. And it's just a matter of authentically answering four questions. Do you find that the work is still useful with varying degrees of open-mindedness? That's not a bad thing. It's not allowing yourself to be fooled. I have that same, I'm a skeptic. So say I was saying, well, I'm not willing, I'm not quite at the place where I believe that everything is a dream. But I do believe that a lot of the thoughts that I have about what's going on in my life and around me are thoughts that are either A, not true, or B, probably cause me and the people around me a lot of pain. It seems like there's still a lot of benefit in this more formal method

of interrogating my thoughts. It's a very powerful thing, just four questions and then just being open to opposites and done. You had a quote that I thought was an interesting one, where in one of your talks, you said something to the extent of that, you know, all guilt is suffering. And I thought about that for a minute. And then I thought, but I also, isn't guilt sometimes a way of knowing that a thought that's useful to us and understanding that maybe we're not living according to the things we value. And so how do those two coincide in your mind? If I'm feeling guilty, it's like an ain't like in to my way of thinking, it's like an ancient, ancient, ancient mechanical way of pushing myself to be good.

Okay. And it hurts. And if I question what I'm believing, I find myself just doing good. In other words, I began to question what I was believing, question my thoughts, and smoking quit me. Anger quit me. It's just the effect of right mind. Quit me. It's just the effect of right mind. So I saw clearly that guilt isn't necessary, that there is another way, but it is necessary until we find another way. So in that case, I'm feeling guilty about something. And I can say, all right, I feel

guilty because I did X, Y, and Z. And then the question is, is that true? Well, actually, in that case, I would just get very still and I'd notice the situation I'm feeling guilty over. Maybe someone hurt me and I lashed out because it wasn't fair, wasn't right, and I lashed out. And it doesn't matter whether I was right or wrong. When I lash out at another human being, then I am going to feel guilt, cause and effect. Okay, so I lash out at another human being, I feel that guilt. So I go to that situation. And identify on a judge your neighbor worksheet what I was thinking and believing in that situation. So when I question those thoughts on the judge

your neighbor worksheet, it changes everything. It radically changes everything. So the judge your neighbor worksheet, which is a great title, by the way, it's both funny and, and interesting at the same time. So that's a little bit different than do I do I write down what I'm thinking and believing and then run that through the four questions? Is that kind of how that works? Or is that a slightly separate process? That's one way of doing it. But you question that and then you have all these other things you were believing on top of it well actually let's say they're below it because you're clear about what you questioned and then this there's this i call it the underworld okay

so you have this whole underworld so you realize your error here you've done one concept and this whole thing this underworld here will override that wisdom that you got in touch with but on the judge your neighbor worksheet you have the whole story you have the thing you were going to question and you have all the thoughts that were holding it up keeping it in place And so then we start working through potentially each of those thoughts individually. Is this thought true? Do I know it's true? Uh-huh. And how do you react when you believe the thought?

To me, it seems to boil down to, I believe, in questioning our thoughts. It's very important. And this is just a very formal methodology. I mean, maybe very formal is the wrong word, but a structured methodology in which to do that so that I kind of, it leads me around those thoughts kind of on all angles. I eventually see all the various things that are there. Yeah. And, you know, I refer to it as checkmate. It's all there.

It's all there. It's all there. It's a wrap for the mind. Nothing missing. And it's so simple. Anyone can do it if their mind is open to it. And it's not something anyone has to do. You know, to be alone with ourself is not an easy thing to do.

And it's kind of new. And we're coming through it through mindfulness practice and the practice of getting still. And for me to get still in one of these questions, you might contemplate that for three or four days, just that one question and just, you know, walk around with it and notice how I react when I believe the thought and then consider that conversation. And then other conversations will come in, maybe conversations where someone thought you could do better at school, but you're just is it true? Experiencing is it true? So's not um and and then even and then noticing how you react when you believe the thought over a period of a week a month you know there's no hurry here suffering

is suffering until it's not there's no shortage of it no shortage no shortage so we proceed through it right so the first question is is it true and if i contemplate that for a while and i go yeah i do think that's true then i'm on to i, I sort of question again, how do I really know? You know, am I absolutely sure? Yeah. And then if the answer is still yes, that's okay. Right. You just move to the third question. Notice how you react when you believe that thought in that situation. And that was troublesome for you. And then the fourth question, who would you be in that same situation without the thought? And then you just witness yourself and that other person or those people. You just witness without the thought. And it's amazing to see yourself in

that position. Compassion replaces frustration, anything that throws us off balance and then the turnarounds are there set turnarounds so one of them was um you know if i say he's not doing well enough the other one would be he is doing well enough yes and then you contemplate what does that mean to you then you'll have a list maybe just one thing on the list, maybe five or six things on the list. But then you can have a conversation with them. You know, sweetheart, I had the thought you weren't doing well enough in school. And then I've got a list here where you are doing well enough in school. And I'd like to talk about the areas that I've missed. Your personal experience where you really feel you're doing well enough in school. And this is where our children enlighten us.

And if we're doing it not on one of our children, but on a friend or someone we even perceive as an enemy, it all starts shifting. We see it so differently because we're being informed. We've got information that we have been overlooking or actually didn't have. So our children are there really, when they trust us, they'll start giving us pieces of their life that we had no way of understanding or even knowing that they were doing that well.

They'll give us a list if they trust us. And so this isn't an exercise in positive thinking. This is an exercise in understanding what I really deeply believe and how those beliefs are influencing the way I see and act in the world. Yeah, this is the real deal. We cannot fool ourselves. And we know, no matter how we try to convince ourselves something's true, stress, guilt lets us know that we're out of our integrity.

And again, that's not right or wrong. It's just how the mind works and how the body mirrors that back. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too?

Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening?

Really, No Really. Yeah, Really. No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's a question for you that listeners of the show will know I offer often. And I'm just interested in seeing it through the lens that you have. So

we talk about we have an emotion, right? And there seems to be a couple of responses to that. One response is to kind of roll around in it and live in it and feel sorry for ourselves and just really feel all of it. And then the other is to sort of just try and find some way to make it go away, whether we simply, whether we drown it in, say, a very overt way like alcohol, or we repress it in some other way, which says like, oh, all is well with the world, everything happens for a reason, you know, and which is sort of a, you know, there's still a repression element there. Yes. How would you answer that question? How do you find the right balance there? When I experience emotions, let's say the ones you describe, and as I understood it. So I experience those emotions, and I want to honor those emotions.

I don't want them, I don't want to addict them away. In other words, chocolate cake them away smoke them away alcohol them it's it's uh it shifts the focus but the problem is still there right and and and that's the cause is what i'm thinking and believing in the moment that is what brings on the stress so i open my mind and experience to the emotions and feel them as I contemplate that moment in time and identify what I was thinking and believing. And then I write it on paper because my mind will talk me out of it later. So I put those identified thoughts down and then I question them. And I can take all the time in the world to question them.

And I have amazing certified facilitators. Their experience, they have really done their work and they're on thework.com as well. But how to do the work is from start to finish is free at the work.com and it's just you know the suffering in my life was so great i just kind of it became so great that i just kind of popped out of it and in that moment in time i saw that when i believed my thoughts i suffered but when i questioned them, I didn't suffer. And I've come to see that this is true for every human being.

So, you know, it belongs to everyone, and there it is. And we don't have to use it. It's just one of the many amazing things we have in the world today to find peace. Are there times that doing the work makes sense and other times where maybe it's not the right time to do it? And where I'm kind of going with that is it's easy. Sometimes I'll find myself and you know, I know a lot of listeners get into this where, you know, the term is rumination, right? I'm stuck in this thought pattern. And on one hand, it seems like the work is a great way to break that thought pattern by i'm

i'm interrupting it are there times where you're just you're just too far down in the in the swirl that it's better to get out of the swirl and then approach the work from a clearer place sure yeah it's just you know we just wait until we can uh just We just wait until we can just get through it enough to go back and take another look at it and fill in that Judge Your Neighbor worksheet. But when I believe my thoughts, I strike out at me or you. And then I feel guilty about that. And let's say I strike out at me or you. And then I feel guilty about that. And let's say I strike out at you. My mind just tears you to shreds.

It doesn't matter if you're on the other side of the world, distance-wise. Just minding my own business over here. Yeah, and I'm just attacking you. And then when the mind, the ego, has done all it can do in that attack, it's got to stay identified as I, I am, I am right, I am okay. So then it comes back and attacks me for attacking you. And then the addiction happens because it's gone as far as it can in both directions, let's say. happens because it's gone as far as it can in both directions let's say and then it sees an image of that chocolate cake or that that drink whatever it is it sees an image and and if you think of a lemon right now like biting into like right now imagine biting into a big juicy lemon. And notice what happened physically. So you felt it,

and it actually shifted the experience in your mouth, your body, physically. And you didn't eat a lemon. You didn't bite into it. So that's the power of mind. So for an alcoholic, if they see an image like i've attacked you then i attack me for attacking you the mind has gone as far as it could the lemon appears in other words the glass

of alcohol and if i'm an alcoholic i just had my first drink because the effect is just like the lemon yep so now i've had the first drink and it shows me where the drink is i saw it it's in the cupboard or it's in the refrigerator or it's in the uh in the the market i saw where it is and i saw me going there boom just like that in my mind's eye it was all there it's how i react when i believe that thought when the mind starts attacking then we live it out in the world where at that point we're really we really are sleep walking and it's a hard it can be a it's a oh my goodness it's a rough way to go and and it's the same thing we it's the same it's the same way we strike out of our children. It's how we react when we believe the thought or our spouse or the people we love most in the world.

Well, Katie, this has been very helpful. I really appreciate you taking the time. I'll have links in the show notes to, it's easy to remember though, thework.com. And our listeners can go out and take a look at all that if they're interested. Is there any last thing you'd want to say as we kind of wrap up? Oh, just gratitude and that suffering is optional and that when we believe our thoughts, we suffer and when we question them, we don't. That brings me to another question. So we're not quite done. I've been making the distinction, and I think I've learned it probably from some Buddhist tradition between pain and suffering. So pain is I break my arm and it hurts. And that's just, you know, it hurts. But the suffering is what I layer on top of that, what I tell myself about, oh, I'll never be able to, you know, throw a ball right, or I'm such an idiot because I did that. Is that what you're getting

at here too, is that there's certain pain that is not going away, it's just that we minimize the suffering that we put on top of that? Well, when you take care of the suffering, I worked with a woman yesterday on a live webcam. She was in pain constantly, She was in pain constantly, constantly. So we questioned it and she was not in pain constantly. And then I got an email from her following that, that she's just amazed at the freedom she's got. She thought she was in pain constantly and she's laughing about it now. But that's like the lemon again.

When we believe it, it is. Excellent. Well, thank you again for taking the time. I really appreciate it. This has been a fun conversation. Thank you for being with so many people and supporting them in Lives Worth Living. It's important. All right. Thank you. Take care. Thank you, Eric. You too. Bye. Bye. You can learn more about this podcast and Byron Katie at one you feed dot net slash Katie.