The One You Feed - Catherine Gray on Unexpected Joy

Starting point is 00:00:00 Even if you are in a happy marriage or relationship, you need other people to make you feel truly content. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, Thank you. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls.

Starting point is 00:01:16 This January, join me for our third annual January Jumpstart series. Starting January 1st, we'll have inspiring conversations to give you a hand in kickstarting your personal growth. If you've been holding back or playing small, this is your all access pass to step fully into the possibilities of the new year. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor. What's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly

Starting point is 00:01:57 love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Catherine Gray. And you may remember she was actually a guest once before when her book, The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober, was released. She now has a new book called The Unexpected Joy of Being Single, locating happily single serenity.

Starting point is 00:02:31 Hi, Catherine. Welcome to the show. Hi, Eric. Thanks for having me. It is a pleasure to have you on again. We have not had a whole lot of guests who've been on more than one time, and you might set the record for the guest who was back on the fastest, but I don't, I haven't measured that, but it's close. So welcome back. I feel honored. Thank you for having me. So your new book is called The Unexpected Joy of Being Single, Locating Happily Single Serenity. And that's right. Yeah, and it's a follow on to The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober. And so we'll

Starting point is 00:03:03 get into the book in a minute, but let's start like we always do with the parable. There is a grandmother who's talking with her grandson. She says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness, bravery, and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second and he looks up at his grandmother and he says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you to answer for the second time what that parable means to you

Starting point is 00:03:42 in your life and in the work that you do. Yeah, absolutely. So in the context of being single, so this will be slightly different to my answer last time, I would say that the bad wolf for me represents that victim mentality that I am very prone to myself around being single, you know, nobody loves me, I'm going to die alone, that sort of thing. And a lot of that comes from societal messaging. So it's about learning to block those negative messages. And the good world for me is things like I am enough, I am complete. And also that this is the right choice for me right now, rather than feeling like singledom has been thrust upon me. So for me, those are the two wolves. That's a great answer and a great way to put it kind of in context of what we're going to be

Starting point is 00:04:31 talking about. So I'm just going to read something that you say early in the book, and then we'll kind of go from there. And you say, if being single is so terrible, why are more than half of us choosing it over coupling? Simple, because it's not terrible. Being single for an extended period of time or for life can be incredibly empowering, fun and emancipating. Being single is a heck of a lot better than panic settling, that's for sure. That panic settling, that cracks me up. Yeah, I mean, I think that's it. Absolutely in the and I'm sure well the western world in general single is seen as quite a sad existence um it's a it's a waiting existence it's you'll meet someone soon your life will begin soon sort of thing and I don't think that's the case I think it's all about

Starting point is 00:05:19 perception if you see it as equally as nourishing and revitalizing a sort of life, then you will enjoy it all the more. So I think it's really about reframing your perception of being single and questioning the narratives and conditioning around being single. Yeah, it must be a testament to the strangeness of my social circle that I was the one that felt weird for getting married years ago. But really interesting. Yeah, well, I just I mean, yeah, I just most of my really good friends are not they are single, they've been single, and they for a long time, we're not young. So yeah, that's just been my frame of reference from a lot of my friends. And I think some of the stuff that you go on to say, I think is really useful because you're not sort of advocating for being single.

Starting point is 00:06:10 No, no, it's not that at all. Yeah, you're just saying, and I love this, you say, there are perks to both ways of life, single and attached. We both look over the fence at each other's grass and long to roll around in it. at each other's grass and long to roll around in it. Isn't it true though? Because I interviewed a psychotherapist for the book and she said something really interesting. She said, often I'll have somebody come into a session and it will be somebody who's single later in life. And they're saying, if only I could meet the one,

Starting point is 00:06:40 then I'd be happy. And then afterwards, she'll see someone who's married and they're saying, if only I was single, I would be happy and then afterwards she'll see someone who's married and they're saying if only I was single I would be happy right and there's just this um feeling of the grass is greener syndrome and we're not appreciating the things that are good about either way of life um so I think it's really important to absolutely enjoy where you are at that time. I agree. I mean, I have been happily single, happily coupled, unhappily single, unhappily coupled. I mean, I've had all those variations. And it is, there's just pros and cons to both.

Starting point is 00:07:22 And it's just another variation of thinking, okay, I have to be, you know, I have to be in a couple or I have to be married or whatever to be happy. It's just another variation on the, you know, if then happiness loop, right? If I get this, then I'll be happy. If I get this, then I'll be happy. Yeah. And it always moves. It's always a moving target. I find that if then. So it just doesn't work. It's all about choosing to be present and make the most of where you're at. Exactly. And I think it's just another variation I've been learning about the hedonic adaptation model. What's that? I mean, we've all heard of the hedonic treadmill, right? You just keep chasing after things. Oh, yes. I thought it was called hedonistic. Oh, I think I've said it wrong in

Starting point is 00:08:13 the book. No, it might not. No, no, it might not be. I'm just, this is what this one has been called. She just calls it the hedonic adaptation model. So it's a little bit different than that. But the essence of it is exactly what we're talking about, which is that you essentially get used to whatever you have. Yeah. And then you shoot for the next thing. That's right. And it's that very thought process, which is almost impossible to completely overcome, because I think it's kind of built into us to some degree. But there's a lot of things we can do to counter it. And I think to your point, that's what this is in the single versus being coupled model is that you just think

Starting point is 00:08:56 that the other thing would make you happy when the reality is, I believe we can all be happy within parameters with whatever circumstances we're in. Yeah, definitely. It's like, for instance, at the minute I live alone, I'm in a one-bedroom apartment in beautiful Brighton by the sea. And I could look at this two ways. I could be like, oh, I'm so lonely. I come home and there's nobody to greet me. Or I'm so independent and I come home and there's nobody to greet me or I'm so independent and I come home and I can eat whatever I want and watch whatever I want and go to bed whatever I want and the bathroom's always free if I want a bath um which I choose the latter so it's it's all about how you see it I think and counting up your gratitudes um As you said earlier, I've been

Starting point is 00:09:46 in relationships where I've been really happy. And I've also been in relationships where I've been deeply unhappy. And I've cohabited with a couple of boyfriends, one of which was a very toxic relationship. And I was very, very lonely in that relationship, even though we slept six centimetres away from each other. And I don't think there is a lonelier place to be than constantly with somebody, but you feel unheard and uncherished and unappreciated. So single is definitely better than a bad relationship, for sure. I 100% concur as somebody who spent a lot of time in a in a bad relationship and you know i'm not blaming anyone at all it was just a bad relationship and yeah it is miserable to be

Starting point is 00:10:32 in a relationship and be that lonely and feeling stuck and and all of that so i agree yeah and feeling paralyzed uh feeling scared to end the relationship. There was an extraordinary survey that I came across when I was researching the book, which asked 20,000 people what would make them the most happy. And 5,000 of them, so a quarter of them, said finding someone other than their current partner I mean what so those five those five thousand people should be single if they're that miserable in whatever relationship they're in but they're not because I'm guessing they're scared of the alternative they're scared of being single they're scared of being alone um and that just makes me really sad so in a way I wrote the book for a couple people too because if we're so scared of being single then then we don't have that freedom shoot. We don't have the alternative, which means that we get stuck in toxic relationships. So that's why I wanted to break down the stigma around being signal and and show people that actually we're just as happy.

Starting point is 00:11:42 So, yeah, that was important to me yeah yeah i totally agree i mean i think people end up being stuck in relationships for for a variety of factors being afraid of being alone is is one of them and then there are others if you've got kids and you've got you know different things but i agree with you 100 like staying in a relationship because you're afraid you'll be alone is a terrible, terrible idea. Yeah, yeah. I understand it. But it's understandable. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:12:09 Yeah, I've done it for years. So I'm just going to read another quote from you because your writing just always, I think, is so good and cracks me up. And you're talking about, you're tying sort of your sobriety to this book. of your sobriety to this book. And you say, if you had mapped my personality islands in my 20s, there would have been a booze island, a Mordor style aisle filled with lost handbags, nightclubs like be at one slavering demons and bottomless abysses. But the island that would have been just as big and just as malevolent would have been man island. It was constantly illuminated, shaking and beset with thunderstorms, like a possessed amusement park. That whole phrase is so good. A possessed amusement park. That's a great phrase for some of my internal conditions at points.

Starting point is 00:13:02 Thank you. Well, it is a roller coaster being in a relationship, isn't it? And I think the two coexist so often, drinking and love addiction, because, well, they just do, which is why some people call recovering from love addiction the second sobriety. Right. Yeah. So I think there's absolutely a trend for those two things to go hand in hand, the dating app and the glass of wine. Yeah, I would agree, which makes me have to pull out one other phrase from later in the book when you talk about the dating app, because it's you quoted somebody who wrote this. This is from writer Mark Simpson, who calls singles who spend hours a day trawling dating apps the unpaid secretaries of desire, which is just so brilliant. Such a great, great phrase. But back

Starting point is 00:13:56 to what we were talking about. I agree. I think that love addiction very often can be the second sobriety. I know it was in a lot of ways for me. I went through that. You know, I had to go through some of that. And it sounds like you and I are sort of similar in our love addiction. And I feel remarkably recovered like I do from alcohol. Yeah, I know what you mean. You know, I feel like that's been a long time coming. Yeah, me too. And so let's talk about it. You refer to yourself as a bat shit, crazy love addict. So talk to me about

Starting point is 00:14:32 what does being a love addict mean to you? Okay. Well, um, I did a lot of research into this and love addiction is a real thing. So in the UK we have the foremost rehab clinic would probably be considered to be the priory rehab clinic and I'm doing this by memory but they defined love addiction as clinging to idealized versions of relationships staying in toxic relationships and just in general allowing your behavior to become warped because you're obsessed with preserving that relationship the most important thing to you is making sure that relationship does not end even if it's a toxic one um so in me this manifested in all sorts of behavior that was actually detrimental to my relationships. I would do things like snoop on messages to make sure that they weren't about to leave me or find out if there was any other people in the picture to try and preserve the relationship.

Starting point is 00:15:40 But of course, snooping on people's messages is absolutely invasion of privacy. And so that created loads of problems um I was very needy I needed a lot of attention that's another classic sign um and also because I was addicted to attention from um the opposite sex um the gender that I I'm attracted to I also cheated. So I would go out, but this is related to my drinking as well. It was always pretty much when I was blackout drunk. So I'd go out and call attention from other men and kiss other men. So it was just something that I was fixated on, this romantic attention, and I would do anything to get it. Right. You say that when I wasn't with someone, I felt flat and dark, like a pitch black room that waits for someone to come along, flick on the light and animate it once more. And that

Starting point is 00:16:35 describes me so much as, you know, earlier for me was like, if I wasn't in a relationship, that was the primary thing I was after. That's what I thought made me whole. Yeah. And then I got into some of what we'll talk about here in a second, which is why we fancy, that's an English term for us American listeners, we might say like in different people more. But for me, it was like I was looking for that relationship or that thing to fill up some hole in me so I would get it. And when it didn't fill up the hole because it can't, I would suddenly conclude that the partner was the problem.

Starting point is 00:17:12 And then it would be like, okay, now I need the next thing, which is the same thing as like thinking if I get this promotion at work, then I'll be happy. Once I get it, I don't find myself happy. I start thinking I need the next it's the same mental process which is i'm trying to fill some hole with something from the outside and when i get it and it doesn't work i assume the problem is what i got not the entire underlying thought process and emotional structure yeah yeah it's it's the hallmark of addiction, isn't it? You never have enough. Enough is this ever-moving neon sign that you're trying to get to, and you can never reach it. And you're right, it's because you feel this hole inside of you, and you try and fill it with glasses of wine or whatever your drug of choice is or a person. And that just doesn't work. So the only person who can make you feel whole is yourself. Right. And you actually talk about this a little bit later on. I used to think like, you know, everything was like an inside job. It all came from inside of me. And one of the things

Starting point is 00:18:20 the shows taught me over and over is that, you know, these external connections are important. But what you talk about later in the book is how some psychologists say, you know, you need bonding with three, four, five people, not one. Yeah. In order to have a solid social connection, which is important to our well-being. Yeah, I think so. That was from a famous Oxford anthropologist. I think he's called Robin Dunbar. And he said that we need five people, five close people in order to be happy, not just one. So there's also this famous quote from a psychotherapist called Esther Perel, who says something like we go to one person and we expect them to give us everything. says something like we go to one person and we expect them to give us everything give me security give me novelty give me you know all of these contradictory things and once that would have taken a whole family or a whole village we would have looked to the entire community and now we're looking for this one person this soul mate to provide it all and that just doesn't work. Nobody can do that. So I think it's very important

Starting point is 00:19:28 to remember, even if you are in a happy marriage or relationship, that you need the other people as well to make you feel truly content. So not to put all your eggs in one basket, to coin a British phrase. Yeah, I think so too. I mean, certainly I am in a crazy happy relationship now and have been for years at this point, which I honestly did not at a certain point in my life think was possible at all. I thought like, I am broken, won't work. Yeah, I relate to that. For me, it was sort of startling to me what happened when the right person came along. But that was also after decades of personal growth and learning and all that.

Starting point is 00:20:13 But my point of all that was even being in that my other friendships are still so important to me. Yeah. And one of the things that you mentioned somewhere in the book, I don't have it in my notes here, but this made it come up, which is one of the things that you mentioned somewhere in the book, I don't have it in my notes here, but this made it come up, which is one of the things that can be problematic about being coupled is that we give up everything else. Yeah. So a marriage or a relationship pushes out on average two close friends, which I can completely understand because when you become coupled, you become more insular. Another really interesting thing is that people that live alone have been shown to be more sociable and less lonely. And I think the reason for that is that you make more of an effort to get out there and socialize. Whereas when I've lived with boyfriends in the past, it's just so easy to come home and lie in front of the TV and not really talk. Right.

Starting point is 00:21:04 in the past it's just so easy to come home and lie in front of the tv and not really talk right whereas now i make sure my social calendar is quite um not too full because i'm an introvert but full enough with exciting things to do and whereas before i would just come home and stick on breaking bad so it's i think that's true we can um become more insular in a couple and neglect our friendships. And also our time is taken up by our partner's friends and family as well. So who we aren't necessarily, they're not our chosen ones. So I think it's important to preserve that autonomy and make sure that our loved ones are still getting the attention and face time. It's possible Chris is going to insert an editor's note here that says, watching Breaking Bad is never a bad idea. So it's just possible he's going to do that.

Starting point is 00:21:53 And I kind of have to agree. It is a pretty brilliant show. Thank you. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls, and I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love. So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were, how we want to see ourselves and who we know ourselves to be and who

Starting point is 00:23:25 we can be. So a little bit of past, present and future, all in one idea, soothing something from the past. And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It can be something that you love. All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

Starting point is 00:24:06 We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you

Starting point is 00:24:22 two? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, really.

Starting point is 00:24:36 No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition sign Jason bobblehead. It's called really no really and you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Interestingly, back to the hedonic adaptation model that I have been reading about, there was a scientific study about it in the context of relationships, saying that this happens in relationships and one way to avoid it is to do exactly what you're suggesting, which is not come home and watch Breaking Bad every day. It's to introduce novelty into the relationship, do different things together, you know, that keep

Starting point is 00:25:16 you from being coming so adapted to your partner and bored and falling into that same routine. Yeah, I think that's great advice. Absolutely. and falling into that same routine. Yeah, I think that's great advice. Absolutely. So let's move into why we fancy in different people more. I'm going to just give you my relationship history up until, you know, five years ago in a nutshell. Meet someone, fall head over heels with them,

Starting point is 00:25:38 get into the relationship. They start to really like me. I become bored. I become distant. I become, I want out, I want out, but of course I don't do it. And then they finally are like, this is ridiculous. And they leave. And I have a complete and utter breakdown because they're the most important thing in the entire world to me and I must have them back. And so, and the few of my relationships that that never

Starting point is 00:26:03 happened in are the ones where I never fully felt like they really wanted me. Yeah. So you hadn't won them. Yeah. So they remained slightly distant. Well, this is this is just something that replays over and over in millions of different relationships. and one of the reasons is it's something called reward uncertainty whereby when we know that we're going to get a reward we become less interested in the reward so if you text somebody and you're not entirely sure they're going to text back when they do text back it gives us more of a hit of dopamine so our brain lights up likemas tree um whereas when we know they're going to text back you're slightly bored when you receive the reply which is just our brain making us fancy the wrong people right so the people that are consistent and reliable and always reply are the people that we fancy the least um so it's just. But once you're aware of it, then you can begin to

Starting point is 00:27:08 rectify it like anything, the awareness is the key to changing that behavior. Yeah, that's one of the things that now I'm like, wow, that mechanism actually seems not to be completely gone. But yeah, it is not the driving force for me at all anymore. It's like I somehow have gotten to the point where knowing that somebody cares about me and loves me and is always there has become something I'm like, I love it. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's something that clicks into place once you like yourself and respect yourself more. So before, when I didn't like myself or respect myself, when somebody was really, really into me, I thought there was something wrong with them. Right.

Starting point is 00:27:49 I really did. And so I would reject them. So whereas the people that weren't sure about me, I was more interested in because I thought they probably got the right idea because I don't really like myself either. So therefore, I'm going to try and win them over. And I was completely unaware of this at the time, but that's what was going on. So yeah, it's just so interesting once you dismantle it and take it apart. Yeah, I agree. I thought this was perfect because this describes me pretty darn well. You say that as a result, when a partner is a super keen 80 to 100% into me, even if I liked him at first, I will find things wrong with them in order to unhook myself.

Starting point is 00:28:31 Yeah. Whereas when a man is 60 to 79% keen, that's when I'm hooked. That's when I become the emoji with heart shaped eyes, anything less than 60. And my dignity kicks in. Yeah, this is so true. So, so, so perfect. And, you know, this reward uncertainty is not just related to relationships, right? It's across the board. When we don't know that we'll always get the reward, we're much more likely to keep seeking it. Yeah, yeah, it is across the board.

Starting point is 00:29:08 yeah it's it is across the board and it's also related to um attachment styles which um i'm sure you want to talk about as well so let's go there yeah let's do it i'm not an expert in this but i've read a lot about it and there's an amazing book called attached which is by neuroscientists called amir levine and a psychologist called Rachel something I'm so sorry I can't remember her last name but it's incredible and it it was one of those books that I read and it just made everything make sense so the theory goes and it's based on a wealth of research that we have three different attachment styles and it's created in early childhood which attachment style you are and there's anxious attached secure attached and avoidant attached now I'm an anxious attacher which explains all the neediness and I basically

Starting point is 00:29:59 expect rejection rather than I'm surprised by it. And anxious attachers tend to be overwhelmingly attracted to avoidant attachers who will avoid and swerve close relationships. So it's so interesting. Secure attached people tend to end up in relationships with other secure attached people. And so the rest of us are left in this sort of merry dance of avoidant and anxious it's just it's just a nightmare and but you can change your attachment style so um I was really interested so I did it from there's loads of quizzes in the book and I did it from the point of view of me when I was drinking and at my most chronic love addiction stage, which was five and a bit years ago. And I did it from the point of view

Starting point is 00:30:51 of me now. And I'm moving much more towards secure attachment, just because I've been doing so much work on myself. So that was a revelation for me. I don't know about you. Well, I haven't read the book, but I have heard of attachment styles. I have a question for you, though, about that. So you mentioned that you're anxious attachment. And but then that also turns into avoidant for you when you're turning into avoiding a relationship or pushing it away. Is that not your attachment style? It's just a it's a behavioral mechanism that results as part of your attachment style that not your attachment style? It's just a, it's a behavioral mechanism that results as part of your attachment style or from your attachment style? I think it's a part of the anxious attachment style whereby if you seek avoidant people.

Starting point is 00:31:38 So I think I see what you're saying that I switch from anxious to avoidant. Maybe that is the case. Maybe I'm a double winner. Maybe I'm both anxious and avoidant. Maybe that is the case. Maybe I'm a double winner. Maybe I'm both anxious and avoidant. I haven't really explored that, but it's entirely possible. But yeah, so when people get too close, you swerve away. It just means that you never end up in a content, fulfilled relationship. So learning about that was really important for me to reframe that and understand where I've behaved in certain ways in the past and how to change my behavior in future. That book, I've seen it come across a couple of recommendations now, and I recently suggested it to a coaching client and she is absolutely loving it. So thank you for the suggestion. Already

Starting point is 00:32:25 helping others. It's a great book. I recommend everyone read it. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls, and I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love. So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were,

Starting point is 00:33:41 how we want to see ourselves, and who we know ourselves to be and who we can be. So a little bit of past, present and future, all in one idea, soothing something from the past. And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It can be something that you love. All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. the floor? We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom

Starting point is 00:34:33 Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you two? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman.

Starting point is 00:34:49 And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

Starting point is 00:35:03 It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's talk about love addiction. We've talked about what it is how it might manifest. And so one of the things you say is, okay, I'm a love addict. Great. But in a way, it's good news because it already means you have the tools in your arsenal to beat this. So let's talk about what are some of the tools that you learned from sobriety, from getting sober from alcohol that you've now been able to use with love addiction? Yeah, sure. So I decided when I first got sober, I completely ignored the advice to take a year off dating and got into quite a serious relationship for six months and then when that ended I was really quite crushed

Starting point is 00:35:53 well very crushed um but it was more to do with my fear of being single and fear of being um ending up alone or left on a shelf or whatever you want to call it um and so I decided to take an entire year off so for me that abstinence was really important um and it helped me completely reframe the way I see my life and it also helped me see that I can get happiness from all sorts of different sources and love from all sorts of different sources romantic love is not the most powerful form of love familial love and platonic love are just as powerful. So that was really important, that year completely off-dating. I didn't so much as hold a man's hand. And that reset everything for me. But then I reintroduced it, which I haven't done with alcohol because God, no. Well, I can tell you. Yeah, I could tell you. So I did the same thing. I took, I think,

Starting point is 00:36:49 nine months off dating at one point, which was great for me. I also at one point in my life reintroduced alcohol and it did not go well. So we're not built for moderation. I don't, I don't think even with all my development and growth that that's ever going to be a good idea. I hope I remember that. No, and I have no desire to either. It's just it repulses me now, actually, alcohol. But I am over five years, so I think that comes later. The thing that you said a little while ago that struck me was about how like once you got sober, you know, the way you behave changed

Starting point is 00:37:25 so much. And it's just I always think it's remarkable how easy it is, how much easier it is to be faithful when you're sober. Oh, my gosh, it really is. I mean, I was never faithful before. And it was never premeditated. It was always when I was off my face, which just is a British term meaning very drunk. So it was never something that I planned to do. And the guilt would eat away at me. It crucified me. And I didn't understand why I couldn't get it, why I couldn't stay faithful, why I couldn't stop myself from kissing other blokes. And and then it just it was so simple just take away the alcohol and you know it would never even occur to me to be unfaithful now it just it will never happen I can 100% say I will never be unfaithful now that I don't drink and

Starting point is 00:38:21 I think so many people go through that torment. It's just such a shame that they don't realize it's a side effect of the alcohol, not their character. Right. Yes. Yes. Alcohol will cause... Infidelity. And will cause any number of terrible decisions. Yeah. Yeah. Taking clothes off in public. Yeah. Yeah. The list goes on and on. We don't need to recount them all. Okay, let's not go there. All right, so let's talk about the tools. Yeah, sure. So yeah, I think it

Starting point is 00:38:53 was very much a case of, for me, I really, really looked at the social conditioning around alcohol, and I did the same around being single because we are told in a million different ways that being single is sad in fact I saw an advert the other day on the tube and it stopped me in my tracks I literally stopped and stood there and people there was like a sea of people moving around me because I couldn't believe it. It was an advert for a dating app. And I won't mention which one, but it said single is your time to shine. And it showed these happy people. And the reason it stopped me in my tracks is because I'd never seen an advert that was pro single before. Right. And, you know, your time on the radio, I had an advert for a credit

Starting point is 00:39:42 card the other day, which I have no idea why it said this but it said we know that being single is no fun so get our credit card I don't know what that selling strategy is but it everywhere it's in rom-coms um and once you start looking out for it it's from our relatives as well you know if you say you're single they'll say they're there you'll meet someone soon you know you'll be cured soon someone will come along and release you from this terrible fate um and it's it's it's the same as the drinking thing we're told that alcohol provides fun and sobriety is boring and we're told that relationships provide condiment and being single is lonely and awful. So once you're aware of that, you can detach from it. So that was a really important tool for me. And I think so much of, you know, that cultural piece is there. And it is transforming a little

Starting point is 00:40:38 bit. I was started watching Downton Abbey recently, I had never watched it. You know, at least in the early part of the show, like getting those daughters married is like a matter of life and death, right? Like how serious it is. And so if you look back and you think about what being a single woman has historically meant, it's not been a great thing. Those days are so very, very different now, but we're not fully culturally caught up. No, no. And it literally was a matter of life or death back in those days. Because if your parents hadn't managed to marry you off, then when they were gone, if there was no inheritance, then how are you going to survive? then how are you going to survive? So, you know, when you look at the, it was the 70s in Britain, when women were able to open their own bank accounts, and buy a house, crazy, you know, so they really were very reliant on men before, whether it was a father or a husband. Yeah. And we still don't have wage equality in the uk certainly so more here can yeah it's it's it's such a problem but we can provide for ourselves and we can have careers and we can put a roof over our heads and um women can have a baby now without being socially

Starting point is 00:42:00 ostracized if they're not married so there's's been so much progress. So I think a lot of the single movement is simply because of feminism, or in other words, equality. So I think that's, it's important to recognize that that's why this generation is more single than any generation before. Because we can be. Yeah, exactly. Definitely. I interrupted you there, you mentioned understanding the cultural programming was one of your tools for dealing with it. Yeah. And also just knowing that a thought can't. So I was pretty addicted to dating apps when I quit drinking and then ended this relationship with this six month guy. ended this relationship with this six-month guy um so before I took the year off I just was constantly stabbing at dating apps um trying to fill the vacancy that um you know this boyfriend going missing had created almost as if I was looking for a new job that's how urgent I felt

Starting point is 00:42:59 about it um and it's it's the same you you know I know now that a thought cannot make me drink even though I don't have thoughts about drinking anymore but I did for many many years and you know that a thought of oh you could have a drink now what about a drink that a drink would be nice that doesn't have to make you drink um and those thoughts go away over time so it's the same with using a dating app or texting an ex. A thought doesn't have to lead to an action. So that was really important. Yeah, I love that. That's such a great phrase. A thought doesn't have to lead to an action. Oh, thank you. And just simple things that I'd learned from recovery, like halts, which is hungry, angry, lonely, tired, sometimes I will feel overwhelmed by single sorrow.

Starting point is 00:43:46 I remember there was this one time this summer where I was walking because I'm not fixed, by the way, I still have days where I'm consumed by single sorrow. And I think it's important to say that so that people know that it's completely normal. And where I was walking up this hill in Barcelona, and I was crying behind my sunglasses because I'm not married and everyone else around seemed to be married um and then I had a snack and I was fine so yeah yeah it's sometimes something that feels like an emotional tragedy is just that you're hungry or you need a nap or you need to phone somebody, you know, just like Holt in recovery, which is such, it was the bedrock of my early recovery. So yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:35 Which for listeners is don't let yourself get too hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. Yeah. Which is so, I don't know if they have these commercials in the UK, but there were some commercials they were running here for Snickers candy bars in the US. And it's this funny commercial where, I'm trying to think of exactly what it is, like a full grown man, like a football player gets hungry and he just turns into this, like almost weeping, high strung, totally emotional, over the top diva. Yes, we have that.

Starting point is 00:45:08 Yeah. We have that up there. And then you eat the Snickers bar and boom, it all goes away. And I mean, that is so, I mean, I agree. I still fall back on that, you know, hungry, angry, lonely, and tired. And I have always thought that's a strange combination of four words, because two of those you just eat or sleep. The other two take a little bit more work with like, all right, I'm angry. Okay, that's gonna, you know, it's not the solution isn't as biological

Starting point is 00:45:37 or lonely. The solution isn't as biological, although it's all wise. I've just kind of thought that that's a strange grouping of those categories. You say, yeah, you say realizing that an emotional Greek tragedy often has a four-had slappingly simple solution pierces its power. Yeah, it really does. And one of my methods, so something that I used, because I found that when I was unhappily single, which was always in my 20s and early 30s, I would constantly comb over past relationships. This is another really key thing. I think even if you are on good terms with an ex, if you keep looking at their profile on Facebook or Instagram or whatever,

Starting point is 00:46:22 you need to block them because you can't move past that until you stop looking at that. And it's a very modern problem. I mean, we did not have this in the 90s. You did not, you were not able to see your ex with his new girlfriend on holiday and, or a video of them playing with their toddler. You know. These things are threatening our mental health. So even though it feels like. You're sort of losing control of them. If you block them and delete them. And you know.

Starting point is 00:46:53 It's like keeping a piece of them. Still being friends with them on Facebook. It's absolutely a gift. To your mental health. To delete them. And you're allowing yourself to move on. And that is a healthy thing. So that was something that I really realized. Yeah, I agree. I mean, luckily, I think I have not spent a ton of time in the truly single world in the Facebook age. Yeah,

Starting point is 00:47:19 only a little bit. But I recognize how bad that could really be. Well, we are somehow here at the end of our time. No. Oh, I know. Well, here's, here's the good and bad news. The, the, the bad news is we're at the end of our time here. The good news is that you and I are going to continue talking in our post-show conversation, which listeners you can get access to by going to oneyoufeed.net support. And I think some of what you and I are going to talk about is exercise, gratitude, turning your brain from a worry-sinking instrument into a bounty hunting machine. I'll explain what that means. And maybe talk about how learning and growth is not linear. So again, listeners, you can find us in the post show

Starting point is 00:48:05 conversation when you feed.net slash support. And Catherine, thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure as always. Thank you for having me. And thanks for everyone listening. Okay. Bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over to oneyoufeed.net slash support. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. This January, join me for our third annual January Jumpstart series. Starting January 1st, we'll have inspiring conversations to give you a hand in kickstarting your personal growth.

Starting point is 00:49:02 If you've been holding back or playing small, this is your all-access pass to step fully into the possibilities of the new year. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you?

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The One You Feed - Catherine Gray on Unexpected Joy

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