The One You Feed - Choosing Love Over Fear: Finding Joy, Confidence, and Self-Trust with Emma Gannon

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

In this episode, Emma Gannon explores the idea of choosing love over fear and how to find joy, confidence, and self-trust. She talks about her new novel, “Table for One” that includes themes of the inner battle between positive and negative thoughts, the healing power of love, and the importance of choosing joy. Emma shares how writing fiction is therapeutic and reflects on her personal growth, confidence, and the grief of changing identities.Key Takeaways:The power of love over fear and hatred in personal and societal contexts.The importance of choosing joy and hope amidst life’s challenges.Writing fiction as a therapeutic tool for self-exploration and personal growth.The dialogue between different stages of life, particularly between one’s younger and older selves.The complexities of mental health and the impact of age on confidence and self-perception.The concept of grief associated with personal transformation and the loss of previous identities.The significance of self-acceptance and understanding one’s own needs and limitations.The role of intergenerational relationships and support in personal development.The idea of recognizing and supporting the complexities of individuals in a judgmental world.If you enjoyed this conversation with Emma Gannon, check out these other episodes:How to Cope with Burnout with Emma GannonBeyond Anxiety: How Curiosity Turns Fear Into Fuel with Martha BeckFor full show notes, click here!Connect with the show:Follow us on YouTube: @TheOneYouFeedPodSubscribe on Apple Podcasts or SpotifyFollow us on InstagramThis episode is sponsored by:AGZ – Start taking your sleep seriously with AGZ. Head to drinkag1.com/feed to get a FREE Welcome Kit with the flavor of your choice that includes a 30 day supply of AGZ and a FREE frother.Smalls – Smalls cat food is protein-packed recipes made with preservative-free ingredients you’d find in your fridge… and it’s delivered right to your door. For a limited time, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping, when you head to Smalls.com/FEED! No more picking between random brands at the store. Smalls has the right food to satisfy any cat’s cravings.NOCD If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started: https://learn.nocd.com/FEEDGrow Therapy - Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. (Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plans. Visit growtherapy.com/feed today!Persona Nutrition delivers science-backed, personalized vitamin packs that make daily wellness simple and convenient. In just minutes, you get a plan tailored to your health goals. No clutter, no guesswork. Just grab-and-go packs designed by experts. Go to PersonaNutrition.com/FEED today to take the free assessment and get your personalized daily vitamin packs for an exclusive offer — get 40% off your first order.LinkedIn: Post your job for free at linkedin.com/1youfeed. Terms and conditions apply.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I shouldn't be this person. I should be the person in Italy with the cocktails. I shouldn't be this person in bed at 9 p.m. And the minute I just go, I'm out of spoons, that's what my body's saying, and I'm going to protect myself and take myself to bed. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true.

And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

There's a question I ask myself sometimes. Would my younger self be proud of the life I'm living today? Emma Gannon's new novel, Table for One, is in a way that very conversation. Her 36-year-old self speaking with her 20-something self through her characters. In our conversation, we explored how writing fiction. can be therapy and disguise, how confidence shifts with age, and how every stage of life brings its own kind of wisdom and its own grief. This is a conversation about complexity, creativity, and learning to trust yourself. I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. Hi, Emma, welcome to the show. Thank you, Eric. I'm so glad to be back. Yeah, I was contemplating this morning, how many

times have we talked. I know I was on your podcast once. I think this is at least your second, possibly third. I think it's actually your third visit on our show, if I recall. Yeah, maybe. I think so. I love that, though, about your show. You have people back. Yeah. Well, I like doing that, you know, I like connecting with people that I have good conversations with and enjoy being with. It's part of the joy of doing the show. So, yeah, no, totally. We're going to talk about all sorts of different things. One of the things we'll talk about maybe more than others is your latest novel called Table for One, but we'll get into all that and your substack here in a moment because you know how we're going to start, which is with the parable. And in the parable, there's a grandparent

who's talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear and the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second they look up at their grandparent and they say well which one wins and the grandparent says the one you feed so i'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do i have been thinking a lot recently about and this is going to sound really corny i think but just how love is i believe so much stronger than the hatred the fear all that side of

things. And we're in such a crazy time at the moment where you would be very valid to think that the hatred and the fear are trumping, no pun intended, the other things. But I still don't believe that. I still believe love is more powerful. I still believe that it's like the stronger emotion or at least the one that holds the most weight and has the most power to change things. And in the end is like what life is all about. So I think with the feeding of the wolves, it's like no matter how terrible things are, choosing to love something, I think is like the most powerful thing you can do. I love that idea of just choosing something to love.

There's a great Jason Isbell song says basically the idea is I hope you find something to love. You know, he's talking about for him, it's music, how it's carried him through his life. But, you know, that everybody finds something, someone that can love. And I tend to agree with you about there being more love than him. because if we look at most people, the vast majority of people, they have people they love, that they are good to, that they are decent to every day. There's every parent taking care of their child.

There's billions of acts of love every day over and over and over and over. We don't see them. We don't think about them, but they're there. And to me, that always feels like if you were to put it all on a scale, if you were actually able to put it all on a scale, you'd see, oh, yeah, there's more of it out there. Yeah. And I think for me, like sometimes it feels rebellious to have that point of view to be like, I'm going to go and find something I like today. I'm going to go and feel joy today. I'm going to go on a walk and think the trees just look really lovely and I'm going to take the toes of them and feel some sort of love for the planet. I think, I don't know, it feels like that's the hard route to take sometimes because you can get sucked into all the negativity. But I like the idea of being like a contrarian who like wants. to push against something. And I feel like pushing against what's going on in the world is like going and finding joy and not being ashamed of that, I think. Yep. I agree. I feel like I'm always

a little bit of a contrarian also in pushing back on the narrative that things are worse than they've ever been and that we're in a uniquely horrible time. Because if you go to any time in human history, the amount of suffering that's on the planet is more than one person could calculate or handle. It's there. Along with all that love. And there's always been difficulty in human life. There's always been battles over power and money winning out over less money. All this stuff just feels to me, you just look at history enough and you're like, this just keeps happening. Yeah. And it's not that the suffering isn't real. It's not that like today there aren't people suffering because of

the policies in the United States. I'm not trying to take that away as being meaningful and really important. But I think when we move into a things are worse than they've ever been mentality, that's hard to, for me, that's not a place I operate very well out of. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, if you read a lot of books from, you know, hundreds of years ago, 50 years ago, I tend to read things that are kind of from the past to remind myself that things have always being bad or at least the same cycles, the same destruction, like, you know, it's not new, all of the stuff that's happening. And I think that is a good reminder. And also the fact that I don't know, like with you, I agree that I don't think it's necessarily true. There are many

things that are much better right now than they have been. Certainly. I mean, if you gave me the choice, like you can go back any time in history and drop down and live, I don't think I'd go anywhere. I mean, curiosity, sure, drop me in for a couple days. Yeah, let me see what it's like. But as far as like any time in the past, I'm like as a relatively average human, I mean, life was, you know, my friend AJ Jacobs always says, you know, to remind himself of how good life is today, he goes, surgery without anesthetic. Yeah, like any modern medicine. Right. Yeah. You just immediately are like, oh yeah, okay, hang on a second. It is definitely better because God, that's awful of contemplate.

Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, I don't have much to complain about. I'm probably coming from a certain lens on it. But I don't know. I look around and some things are good. And I'm okay with changing my lens occasionally. You know, the news is real. We know it's happening.

But there's also a lot of other things happening outside of the news. And I just, the world is very big. And I think we forget that. It is very big. It is very big. Okay. let's shift gears here a little bit. I want to talk about the novel for a second. And I heard you on a podcast that was a podcast about writing. I don't remember what it was called. And you talked about this idea that the joy of a creative life is that it changes you as you do it. By the end of the project, you've morphed in a certain way. And in that conversation, she asked you that question. in what way has this novel changed you?

And you talked about the fact that it was very hard to write that you overcame the real difficulty of writing that book, which I think is a great answer, but I'm going to ask you it from a slightly different perspective. What in writing about the characters in this book? Did you see or change or feel different about after you had written them? Like the characters in the book, how did they impact you? Well, I think everyone's different, especially with writing fiction,

but I find it really funny how I write a book and then afterwards it's in hindsight that I can see I've just been like having some therapy essentially through the characters like that for me is all it is and I'm fine with that you know it's a thinly disguised subconscious journey of Alice and Wonderland

working stuff out on the page essentially and I think that's what we do all through our lives like when we're kids and we have dolls and we're like making them talk to each other we're just figuring out our own psyche at the end of the day and hopefully making it entertaining and having the reader in mind. I don't want anyone being bored with me just like going into my own stuff. But yeah, at the end of the book, I realized that it's a story about Willow, who's the

protagonist, who's figuring out how to be alone for the first time. She's like a serial monogonist. She's never been alone. And she's also meeting a younger woman who is going through something and she's learning from someone 10 years younger than her. So it's like intergenerational friendship is happening. And I realized at the end of the book that it was like my 36-year-old self was talking to my 20-something self. And they were having a conversation.

So it's like everyone, well, not everyone, but a lot of people say that their characters, every single character in a novel is you, essentially, looked at different parts of you. And I think that's the case of mine. Yeah, it's interesting because it, on one hand, it's the 36-year-old you talking to the 25-year-old you. but it's not in at least in broad terms it's not the 36 year old explaining to the 25 year old all the ways you know here's i'm wise because i'm 11 years older it's actually that person trying to take the wisdom of the 25 year old yes i'm so glad you spotted that because you i know we've spoken about like my burnout episode that i had and i think i came on your show to talk about it but honestly it was a crisis of confidence it was

I was so confident in my 20s, and I had a great time in my 20s. Like, I did some really cool stuff, and my career went really well. And as I've got older, everything's been harder, and I've really had to try and tap into that 25, 28-year-old who just didn't care and got stuff done and really believed in herself. And I keep being told that, like, the older you get, the more confident you get, and the more you know yourself. And I'm like, this is the opposite is happening to me. So how do I, how do I like tap into that kind of confident young person that didn't know everything, but she knew some stuff? Yeah, I think about this a lot also. I mean, I'm older than you.

You're in your 30s. I'm in my 50s. So I've got 20 years on you. So we've got a different, different sort of perspective. And when my age, I'm starting to really think about, okay, like, I know what life looks like for people 50 and on because I've watched my parents. do it. I've watched their friends do it. I see that thing. And there's this element in which I want to embody the wisdom and the good things that can come with that without losing that younger energy. And then I'm like, well, okay, in the same way that it's like, am I trying to put off,

like if I, you know, if you go get a lot of Botox, right, you're trying to continue to look young, maybe in a way that doesn't make sense. I don't know. I've got no judgment on any of that. Am I doing the same thing? Am I trying to stave off aging by embracing this younger self? And when I net it all out, I feel like I'm finding the right balance for me, you know? And for some reason, there's a concept that I carry around in my mind, which is would that young self be proud of me?

That's nice. Would that young self look at me and go, yes, great. And I don't know why I put that young, like, it's usually like a 17-year-old, you know, with my 17-year-old self. And it's interesting that that's one of the ways in which I try in, that I end up sort of unconsciously, I don't want to use the word judging myself, but, you know, looking at my life through, would that person be happy? And so why did I think a 17-year-old is the person that I want to keep happy? I just think they're interesting questions that your book raises a lot of.

I love that and I think there's something to be said for like a certain age, whether it's 10 or 17 or how old, that inner you is kind of like running the show in terms of wants to be creative or wants to be free or wants to go and play outside or wants to, you know, I think we channel that younger self in all that we do sometimes. But I think for me it's less about, like I don't really have an issue with like looking older.

I actually kind of love that I can, like, go into that phase of, like, not caring as much and, like, changing up my style and, like, enjoying, like, later in life. That will be fun, I think. It's more the energy. And, like, I go for walks with my 20-something friends. And they're really excited about the world. And that's, I think, what I lost for a bit during my burnout was, like, I don't feel as excited. And I don't feel like I can change the world anymore. And I think it's wanting to tap into that hopefulness, I think I had in my 20s.

Yeah, I also think that is a question about when I think about energy and fired-upness, right? Like 20-year-olds are pretty fired up, right? They are. They have an energy that I don't. They have an element to them. And some of me wants to recapture that. And then some of me is working on like, is age the reason I'm not that way? sort of in an age-appropriate phase, or have I lost something? And I don't know the answer to that

question. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, the real fundamental message, I guess, of the novel is all this stuff, is like being in that middle ground, I think, where you're looking to the future, and then you've got a lot that's gone behind you, and you're figuring out who you're going to be. And I think the 30s is quite interesting for that. You know, one thing I've learned whether it was running a software team or now running the one you feed is that who you hire matters more than almost anything else. As small business owners, we don't ever really clock out. Our work follows us everywhere. That's why I like that when we clock out, LinkedIn jobs clocks in.

LinkedIn makes it simple. Post your job for free, share it with your network, and manage qualified candidates all in one place. They'll even help you write the job description. And if you choose to promote your job, you'll get three times more qualified applicants. And the quality really matters. 72% of small and mid-sized businesses say LinkedIn helps them find high-quality candidates. I've used LinkedIn jobs several times, and I always find it to be the best tool for the job. That pun was totally intended, by the way.

Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash one you feed. That's LinkedIn.com slash the number one, Y-O-U-F-E-D. Terms and conditions apply. Mr. Monopoly here, Monopoly is back at McDonald's. Register in the McDonald's app, so you're ready to. Get your back! Two ways to peel for a chance to Get Your Bair!

Physical peels with select items and digital peels with others to Get Your Bair! Play Monopoly at McDonald's. No purchase necessary. C rules at Play.mcd.com for full details and AMOE.com to play without purchase. Ends November 23rd, but bonus play ends November 2nd. Monopoly is a registered trademark of Hasbro. Copyright McDonald's.

I love the book, by the way. Thank you. I really enjoyed reading it. You said you didn't want it to be boring. It wasn't. I enjoyed it all the way through. and I felt like I could untangle a lot of this deeper questions underneath of it that was there. And I really liked it.

And I love the fact that it ultimately is, to me, a reflection of reality in that it's not simple. Actually, there's a line in the book. There's Willow is the main character, but she also has an aunt who's kind of been her mother in a way and just always looked out for her. And they're talking about Willow's mother, who's not present due to different issues. And you say, it's complicated. That was always Carla's line. Carla being in the end, you know, she always said it's complicated when they talked about her mom. And you say, and it's true.

Depression and mental health are complicated. Those things are definitely complicated, but so is life. And I loved that the complications didn't resolve themselves in a tidy way in that book. It didn't end on like a downer. it actually is very hopeful. For me, it was hope amongst the fact that life is complicated. Yeah. And that's not going to go away.

Yeah, I feel like the ending for me felt like a dot, dot, dot to be continued. Like, her journey is not over in any way. And life is really complicated. And I guess also the theme, I suppose, for me, of the book is, like, feeling trapped and how do you get out of that? So, like, Willow feels trapped in her relationship. she, you know, by the end. And then NAS, who's the 20-something, is trapped in this career where she has to perform as

herself. And I like to think the main character unshackled herself a little bit. What's really interesting about that is that she didn't even consciously recognize she was trapped, I don't think. It doesn't sound like, right? Reading her relationship from the outside, you can kind of be like, huh, all right, you know, a little bit of a red flag there. Okay, a little bit of a red flag there, but she's in it.

And I don't, I think she has these subterranean understandings, but she doesn't really actually know it. And then she's not the one who chooses to get out of that relationship. It actually happens for her in the sense that the guy breaks up with her. I think that's also really interesting about how sometimes, my experience has been sometimes I need the other, I've needed the other person to blow the structure up because I'm not good at it. Yeah. I'm loyal on the side of perhaps too much in many cases. And so, but I can look back and be like, oh, thank God. You know, at first it was like very difficult, but later I'm like,

oh, okay, someone, you know, someone let me out of that cage. I wish I'd broken out of it myself. Yeah. But the end result is the same, which is I'm out. Totally. And I feel like that's everyone's like character arc in real life and in fiction is something happens to you, the inciting incident. And then you have to work with life to figure out the next step. And I think most people would look back on their life and think that the bad thing that happened turned into a slightly better thing on the whole. And also, I guess, you know, for me, I'm the same. I try and make the thing happen over and over and again until like something. I'm not the one to break it off, basically, which can be quite painful, but ultimately quite good.

As you said, you know, there's an idea that the novelist is every character in the book in some way. And I was curious, though, whether you have realized to the degree to which you are like NAS now. And I mean the good version of NAS now. Well. Do you see yourself in that role? Because I do. I did. I think past sense.

I think that's why I brought that side in because I could write that character knowing it, knowing from the inside what that entails, like having a career on the internet and performing as yourself and also having a private self and having a team of people around you who are like basically profiting off you being you. And I also know how it feels to leave all that behind and realize that nothing is worth it in terms of anything that affects your mental health that badly. So, yeah, like, I definitely could write that character from experience. What I saw is, and that's why I said like a good version of NAS, because to me, and everybody's life is different on the inside than it is on the outside, I look at you as an influencer in the good sense of the word, meaning like I think lots of people look to you as someone who has figured out how to do this internet life thing in a way that is true to themselves and honors who they are. And I look and go, okay, that's you, in the way that NAS is a role model for lots of young women, I think you are also for a different type of person.

But I think without, I don't know how much of the book we want to give away, but things with NAS aren't exactly as they seem. Yeah. But with you, it feels like we had this conversation in our last time. And I asked you, we were talking about an Amazon tribe where they change their name as they go through different stages in life. And I think I asked you, like, what would be your name before your burnout episode and your name after? And before we got to a name, you said, well, I kind of think of it as like performative Emma and real Emma. And it seems to me that real Emma is kind of running the show to a greater degree than in the past. Yes, 100%.

And I think that's why Naz hasn't figured that out in the book yet because she's young and she takes everyone else's advice all the time. Because I think you do go through a phase of that, don't you? Where you feel like you don't know anything, so you're learning from everyone. And I do feel like I'm coming to a point in my life where no one knows better than I do on certain things. I'm not saying I know everything. I just mean like in terms of how I want to run my life, like I'm the expert on that. And therefore, I consult myself first in everything now. And that is a huge change.

And it's amazing what that does on like a physical level. Like my body and my energy and everything totally has changed leaning into that. And I find that fascinating. Like just how you can carry yourself in the world can be so different depending on whether you're trusting yourself or not. It's interesting because just a few minutes ago you said that you partly missed the 25-year-old that had all the confidence to go out and change everything. And yet I hear you talking about a different type of confidence right now, which is this confidence, not that I'm going to put a dent in the universe and all that nonsense, the confidence in I know who I am and I know how to shape my life so it fits me. And that seems to me the confidence that you haven't lost confidence. It looks to me like it's shifted.

Now, I'm playing psychologist here, so I probably should step out of that seat. But nonetheless. No, I love that. I think that's so true. but I think it's changed in terms of like I believe that whenever we go through a big transformation in life that we have to grieve something and like it sounds really dramatic but it's it is grief it's like I'm no longer that person and I no longer get to have those things so I've I've stepped into this new confidence of like knowing how to

run my life a bit better and that is amazing but I can no longer do a talk to a hundred people on stage can't do it sends me into like a panic attack need to go home can no longer go to like a party and like drink cocktails can't do that anymore can no longer you know be in a social situation i don't want to be in for longer than an hour like yeah i see i feel like there's there's kind of loss to that in a weird way because i used to do all that stuff and really enjoy it and the new version of me can't do it but i say i enjoyed it i don't think i did deep down that's the interesting tricky part about all that is and we talked about this also last time to what extent do we see what looks attractive i think we were talking about uh beautiful people on a

beach in italy partying and drinking right and and you i see it i'm like i i wish i was there i want to be there i want to be one of those people i want to and then i you know when i have a little bit more reflection i'm like i i wouldn't i wouldn't be happy there like i don't fit there right i wish i did on maybe some level but i but i don't but i hear what you're saying about this grieving i think that with me and drugs and alcohol in the beginning the only perspective I could take was like those things are bad get them out of here I need to stay I was dying over time I've begun to become more honest about what I give up in order to live life the way I do and I do think there are things that I give up that I don't have in life that would be nice to have if I was able to to do that in some degree of moderation And so I definitely think there's a grief and I also am a big believer that like every stage in life, almost everything that's happening, you're just playing a game of tradeoffs. You're playing a game of like, this is better, that's worse, this is better, that's worse. And you're trying in our minds to do some sort of mental calculus of, is this right for me?

I think that's so true. And I remember someone saying once that if you drink alcohol, that you, and this isn't even if you're like addicted necessarily, just if you just have alcohol, you are taking something from the next day because there's like an energy exchange there where like you're going to bed later or your body is, you know, has toxins in it. Yeah. The next day just doesn't going to be as good. And I always thought that was interesting because like you say, that life is tradeoffs and that can be an extreme tradeoff. or it could be, like, little trade-offs. And I realize now, you know, I can't even go for, like, loads of coffees with people who I'd love to go for a coffee with because I'll be in bed for a week.

Like, I just am such a highly sensitive introvert, and, you know, realizing that means not drinking and accepting it. Yeah, I went with my friend. It's funny the way the road sort of, in some ways, seems to narrow for me. It's like the vices of just one by one continued to shrink down. I was saying to my friend, Chris, we go like once a year to the horse races. And last night was the year that we went. And as we were driving down, it was like seven o'clockish. And I said, the number of times that, particularly in early sobriety, that I at about this hour would drink a red bull is amazing. Like, that would not go well right now. And, you know, you talk about the gifts and the loss of aging. I mean, that is one of them, right? My body just doesn't wish. stand being treated poorly in the way it used to. Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's so true. And I'm really into this topic. I feel like, you know, I've got so much to learn about it. Like, I feel like I'm talking as if I'm, like, 95. Like, I'm fine right now. But at the same time, I know what's coming. And, like, one of my favorite podcast is actually a podcast about women over 40, talking about menopause and talking about their bodies and talking about things that change.

And I just, I like these conversations. because I just think, why would you, why would you pretend this is not happening, you know? Like, that's what life is. Yep, I agree. And there's so many good things, too. Along the lines of that, of women having conversations, there's a line laid in the book where Willow says something. And she's talking about, I think, NAS. She's talking about her mother.

She's talking about her aunt, Carla. And she says, I feel a strong duty to protect the women I love. even the idea of them women with complexities with scars who find life difficult and need help talk to me about that feeling in you do you feel that a duty to protect the women you love the idea of a complex woman who's multifaceted good and bad yeah definitely and honestly I wouldn't say just women like anyone complex complex people I think I think I think like everyone's trying out new identity is quite a lot, especially online. Like we have more freedom now to say, this is the type of person I am, or this is the new substack I've just

launched, or this is the new thing I'm into. And I just, I think if someone's trying out something and they are complicated, like, let's support that and give people a bit of grace, I think. I just think we jump to conclusions very quickly about people and about people's opinions and people's politics and I don't know. I think it's like the more interesting angle for me, maybe it's like a journalistic thing, is to be like, oh, maybe that person's going through something or maybe they're trying something out

or like maybe something's going on there. I think that's more an interesting thought to have than just like that person's terrible or that person's broken or whatever horrible word we want to use. Yeah, that's one of the fascinating parts of the book for me was the character Willow being assigned to cover this younger woman as a journalist and the journalistic way in which NASA's story

slowly comes out right in the beginning there's no there's no depth to her really right she's just a character of a certain idea not a bad idea but but she's she's she's playing that but as time goes on in a true journalistic fashion or in the way that you are saying like you just keep peeling layers of the onion on someone and then by the end you're like oh I have a very I have a very complex person here. And I think it's back to what that earlier line, complicated. Yeah. And I really like that sort of, it's a bit old school, I guess, like in terms of a narrative device.

Like, journalists meet someone and uncovers what they're really like. But those are my favorite types of things to watch. Like, I've always been really interested as well in, you know, big interviewers, like for the New York Times and they meet a celebrity. And then they talk about that experience on what they're really like versus what they appear to be. I've always found that really interesting, figuring out, trying to figure out what someone's actually like. And also just knowing that, you know, there's so much more than the pixels we see. And people can just be very good at presenting themselves and there's going to be someone behind the scenes. And I think the person behind the scenes is more interesting.

My version of that that I love is every time I judge someone, which I think we're all the same. same in this. I see someone I form an opinion. It just happens like that. There's no like conscious choice. It just happens. All of a sudden I've made an opinion and I have an idea of who I think this person is. And I love, love, love when I'm dead wrong. I just love as the process unfolds. And then I can stand at one point and look back at what I thought and be like, you totally miss the mark. Almost always in a good way. Yeah, I love that. Almost always the process. person is better than I initially judge them. I don't know what that says about my initial judgment, perhaps. I don't know. They're almost always a better person and more, there's more

depth to them than I thought in the beginning. And I love when I get to have that experience. It's probably a good way around instead of thinking someone's just great straight away and realizing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I love that. And I do think, like, I think life is really hard for people. Like in general, like, I've touched wood, haven't actually had that many things happen to me, but from talking to people, people have had stuff happen. Like, lives can be really brutal. And I think when you meet someone and they seem a bit strange, or they're a bit jittery, or they're a bit nervous, or they're a bit this or that or whatever, like, we're all human. And then you figure out what they've been through. I just think, yeah, yeah, that has always

interested me. And I think with NAS, I wanted to show someone being very good at putting on a front and then realizing what they've been through behind the scenes. Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask you something. What's one thing that has been holding you back lately? You know that it's there. You've tried to push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way. You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major saboteurs of self-control, things like autopilot behavior, self-doubt, emotional escapism, that quietly derail our best

intentions. But here's the good news. You can outsmart them. And I've put together a free guide to help you spot these hidden obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can use to regain control. Download the free guide now at one you feed.net slash ebook and take the first step towards getting back on track. You told us on Substack about your special shelf and yet I see many, many shelves. What's going on here, Emma? This is investigative of journalism. So I made a shelf within the shelf. Basically, there's just, there's one shelf on that bookshelf that is a special one.

And I realized why do I have all my favorites, like, scattered around? I just thought, this one shelf I have that I wrote about on Substack, which has maybe about 20 books that really mean a lot to me, just having them all together in a row, like, distilled, I guess, what I want for myself, essentially as well, as a row. writer, like the quality, the themes, the authors and how much I admire them. And sometimes I get very lost in what I'm trying to achieve. Like I'll just be like doing it and then I'll wake up one day and go, what am I doing again? And I think just looking at that shelf is just such a reminder. And then I think I really recommend anyone do this in terms of like on your desk having like a

mood board or a collage or a photo or a post-it note. Like what are you doing this for and what has always inspired you. this, you've got books on it. And as part of that, you analyze like their categories. Okay, there's a biography, there's four novels, there's three self-help books, five writing guides, five collections of essays, and 15 memoir. So that tells us something about the category of book you like. But a level deeper, each book probably means something slightly different to you. But are you able to puzzle out other themes about you based on all the books that are on the shelf? More, more than just the category they're in?

I think some of the books that are on the shelf are due to how they helped me through a certain time in my life. So I think a lot of it is reminders. Like life moved so quickly and there's like thousands of photos on my iPhone and loads of emails in my inbox. Sometimes it's just like that book helped me figure something huge out and I would love to remind myself more often what that thing was that I learned so that I don't have to keep learning it again. I feel like I go, you know, go round and round in circles. And then I'll be like,

oh, yeah, I figured that one out once. I don't think it's going to happen. Like, it's just going to stick forever. But just seeing the books all lined up, yeah, it just like condenses down something for me. What's one good lesson from those books on that shelf that you don't want to forget? It's really hard to pick one because they're all so special. I mean, there's big magic on there by Elizabeth Gilbert. I read that book in 2015. I met Elizabeth Gilbert that year because I went to the book launch because I was working at a magazine at the time.

And I've kind of written my version of Big Magic that's coming out next year or 10 years later, you know, very different from that book. But my take on creativity and I think seeing that book, so I reread that book every time I start a new project, I listen to it on audio book and I go on a long walk and I buy it for loads of people. I think it's just a reminder that like, again, back to the conversation earlier, like 25-year-old me is still there. She knew that I was interested in this topic. That glancing down was that I, following your thing, just this morning, thought, what would be on my secret show? Oh, yeah. And as you were talking, one just landed. I was like, okay,

okay, got to get that one on there. What would be on yours? Well, before I say what's on it, here's a couple things I noticed. One was, like you, I can find categories. And the main categories seem to be spirituality in sort of a Buddhist Eastern lens and novels to a large degree. And the other thing that I found, at least at first glance, is that many of them, and this is maybe the test of something being on the secret shelf, is it has to have longevity to get there. There are books that came earlier in my life. there are much fewer books that I've discovered recently. Yeah.

I think about why that is. I mean, one of the great parts of my job that also, like any great thing, has a downside. I get to read amazing books by amazing authors on a very regular basis. The downside is that that happens with such regularity, that it's kind of one after the other after the other, that things don't stand out in the way that they normally are used to, right? Right. And I miss that. I also think some of it is 10 years of reading these type of books. It's very rare that I open a book and I read it and I go, oh my God, I never saw that. I never knew that. I never thought of that. I'm not saying I know everything. I'm just saying that I think for me it's all about not. And this is what my book is about to a certain degree. It's not about the big epiphany anymore. It's about just the steady work of integration. It's taking what I know and continuing to live it more. However, with all that said, I'll give you a couple books.

One is from a novel perspective, Goldfinch by Donna Tart and a prayer for Owen Meaney by John Irving. And then there's books like Buddhism, plain and simple, which is a book that is about a Zen teacher who wrote years ago. There's The World Religions by Houston Smith, which I think is one of the best books ever written. if you want to understand the gamut of faith traditions and what they mean and what they say. It's just kind of a masterpiece. I do have a couple, Susan Kane's book Bitter Sweet from a few years ago is on there. I mean, that book, I know Quiet is the book she's most known for and that most people love. Bittersweet was hit me a little bit more.

So those are some of them. Can I ask, do you remember where you were when you read them? like do you remember the time in your life or like can visualize when it was some of them yes for example another newer novel that's on there is demon copperhead and I do remember where I read that book I was in Mexico on vacation with my son

and we both got colds which turned out to be COVID we didn't know it at the time and so I just remember being in my hotel room reading that book others they definitely tie to a time and an era very, very clearly, but not necessarily a moment. But that's indicative of my memory as a whole. But I think that is the case with the special shelf. It's like it's about a feeling.

It's about a connection. And for me, I can remember pretty much where I was when I read each one. And I think that, like you just said, if it stands out to that extent in a sea of books, and we've both read so many books. And I think that's important to pay attention to it. like what do you like what do you gravitate to what's your tastes i think these are all the questions i have as a writer going into my career as it unfolds is like reminding myself um what my standards are and what i like and what i want to be because there's so many opportunities that come your way

sometimes if you're lucky enough to get them and sometimes it's a great opportunity on paper but it's like is it going to get me closer to that special shelf maybe not Yeah. Interestingly, we have a couple authors in common on the special shelf, but different books. So you've got Danny Shapiro on there. I think one of our books about writing, and I have her novel Signifiers on there. I do remember that one. It was audiobook, and my partner, Ginny and I were in a car listening to it. I remember it. The other one that we share in common, but we have a different person on, is I didn't mention this one, but you have Hillary Mantell on there. for, I believe, her memoir, and I have it on for Wolf Hall. Oh, I love that. I mean, this is a hard exercise to do because I would put all those books on, too. It's really hard that whole, like, what's your favorite book? It's like, I can't do that.

Yeah, I'm a little bit concerned that this could become a 25-year project for me. How many of you got on yours at the moment? Oh, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. And that happened in about 20 minutes, you know. I have this dream someday I'm going to go through and, like, pick my top 20 albums. Yes. But I don't embark on that because I'm like, okay, that could consume years of my life if I'm not careful. Well, there's something, do you listen to Desert Island Disks?

I have heard it sometimes. That is, I think, an exercise I want to do at some point. And, like, obviously, you know, trying to manifest one day being invited on. But until then, just I'll make my own. list. Well, I was in your country recently, England, on vacation. And when I go somewhere, I try and make a playlist for Ginny and I for that place. I did the same for California in a very standard way. Yeah. Yeah. I went to make a London list because we were in London and we were in Cornwall and I was like, I'm going to make a London list. I did spend an inordinate amount of time on it. And I could have

spent way more because the amount of music that's about London or made in London or is just mind-blowing. I want to, would you share the playlist publicly or is it private? Of course. I would love to listen to them. No, no, nothing private. Okay, I will. I will. And then I did one for Cornwall, which is more like she, sea shanty type things.

And then one for the English countryside, which was more like traditional English folk. I spent a lot of time on these. I went way overboard this time. But I love doing it. Like that is, I'm in a really happy place when I'm doing that or when I'm thinking about books to go on the secret shelf. because it is an excavation of me in a way. Yeah, and you're adding such a cinematic experience to your trip, you know, listening to those songs while you're there is just adding to it.

I love that. And then there's a general rule that I can't just come back and keep listening to the playlist. Why not? Like, it's not that it can never be listened to because I want it to anchor me back in that time. But then can't you listen to it in your home and relive your memories? Yes, yes, I can. But not all, I can't do it a lot. Okay.

Because if I do it a lot, then it starts the memory of what it's a... I don't know if you've had this experience, but if I hear a song that I loved that I, for some reason, haven't heard in years, it takes me somewhere immediately. Yes. Even much more than a book does, a song will do it. But if I've listened to that song a hundred times in the intervening time, it does, I mean, I can vaguely recall, oh, yeah, that kind of was, but it doesn't take me there in the same way. It's been, it's sort of like seeing an old friend that reminds you of a time in your life versus like a friend that you walk alongside all the time. I have friends that I walk alongside all the time musically. And then I have some that I just kind of like that old friend like takes me back to my these days.

And so with the playlist, I try not to over listen to it because I want it to be able to transport me back to that place and that time. That's really powerful. Yeah. No, I love that. There's a phrase that you used. I don't remember where it came from. But you said at one point, you were talking about kind of what you do now in general. And you said, I just love turning life experiences into life lessons. That's what writing does for you. And I guess my question is, how does that process happen?

Is it conscious? Or are you just, like, tell me about how that actually happens, how a life experience becomes a life lesson in your experience. Well, I think, I mean, firstly, it's not a life lesson. that I'm trying to force onto others. It's like a life lesson for me. And I think that's why I write a lot privately. I write a lot in my journal. I write a lot that's on my laptop that no one will ever see.

I write to process my life and the world around me. Like I find life really overwhelming. And I think just writing it down has always done something for me since I was like, you know, 10 years old. So I think, yeah, like in a smaller way, that's just what I'm doing. I'm trying to take something that's happened and kind of put a bow on it a little bit even if it's a really bad thing that's happened to me

I genuinely feel like the perspective of being a writer is really empowering because you can turn anything into something. There's a phrase that's like you either have a good experience that's great or you have a bad experience that makes a good story and I do believe that and I think when I wrote my memoir

a year of nothing which I'm re-releasing actually next year in January. I was so burnt out I could not do anything practically for a whole year and yet I've written this book that really didn't take that much effort and I'm really proud of it and it just made me realize that I don't know. It feels like this mark of knowing that I am a writer because I can write through anything. It's not like, oh, I'm a writer because I go to the gym at 6am and go to my desk. It's like, no, I'm a writer because I write about the things that have to me. That's a very interesting distinction that I want to come back to that that

writer distinction. I want to stay with the process a little bit more. So I know like you you follow to some degree Julia Cameron, I think we we both are sort of friends with her morning pages, which is basically you just write, you know, complete stream of consciousness in the morning. As you're doing that, are you, are ideas popping out? You're like, oh, I could I could take that and develop it more or like I'm kind of curious when the lesson and the experience meet yeah I think about this I'm not good at this by the way natively I don't think in the having a life experience and then connecting it consistently to a life lesson I don't know why I'm self-reflective I don't know why this doesn't happen easier for me so I'm intrigued by

the process you know when I wrote my book the success myth in a bit of a fugue state because it was like pre-burnout and I had a deadline and I was really tired and I wrote that book in a very unhealthy way. Like I really pushed myself too hard and paid for it later. And I think the lesson was like trying to come out of me. You know, it was like the writing. And I know Julia Cameron, you know, does believe that to a certain extent we're channeling something. The book was not really like consciously me. It was me kind of, I think it's going to make me sound bizarre, but like I blacked out whilst I was writing that book. Like it, I don't know where it came from, but it came from somewhere. And then I got to reread it and be like, oh, yeah.

So I don't know. The writing process is very mysterious. And I think sometimes we write things. And then later we're like, oh, yeah, I get that now. You know, the penny drops. That's what happens for me anyway. Like my books are ahead of me in terms of like psychologically. It takes me a while once the books come out for it all to make sense. Yeah, back to that distinction of being a writer. I have now written a book that will be published next year. So by one definition, I am a writer. But on another, I don't think I am.

Like, I don't gravitate towards sitting down and writing things down. I think it's why this podcast was what worked well for me. It was because I didn't have to do that. I think it was still as a vehicle for me to talk about what I think and feel and how I view the world in conversation with somebody, but it wasn't me just off writing. I'm really intrigued, though, because this book emerged from a program that I've taught a bunch of times. So the book was kind of all here already. I think I'm going to do another book. And what I'm sort of excited about is I don't know where it exactly will lead me.

That sounds fun. I mean, did you enjoy writing your book? Yes and no. I mean, there were times that I enjoyed it for sure. Like you, I felt that I really got something from the fact that I could sit down, go through what felt really difficult, and emerge with something I felt really good about. Like that I could do that. And I think I learned something about my capacity to create that there's more to it than I thought. I can do more of it than I think.

I think. I mean, for example, when we got the book contract, I think it was for 55,000 words, and I went back to my agent. I said, can we negotiate that down to 45,000? Like, I don't think I have enough to say. I mean, this book was a monster by the time I was done. Even with me trying to cut it all the time, it was like 95,000 words. I was like, okay, apparently, I've got stuff to say. I've got more that'll come out of me than I thought. So yes, I did like many parts of it. The early process of it for me was really, really difficult. The self-doubt was huge, the not knowing quite what the heck I was doing or how to even do it or think about it. I feel like I got better.

I feel like the later chapters were much easier for me. I had learned something about writing a book, which I had no experience in at all to start. And I think you don't get good at things. You just, I mean, yeah, some people have talent. but talent is cultivated craft is developed and I haven't spent my years developing that craft so I think it took I think it took some time but yes I did like writing it I liked the I like the focused nature of it yeah I also really liked having a place for ideas to kind of go I don't know I don't know how I was to say it but I would get I would you know the books obviously churning

in my head all the time and I have an idea and I'm like oh that could go there. It doesn't often, but it could. Normally when I'm out and about and I have an idea, it's just, it's untethered. What do I do with it? Now, the downside to that is now that the book is done, it's painful because these ideas keep coming. And I'm like, well, I can't, I can't change. You know, I can't fix it. Do you go through that? I do, but I kind of honor the process of that's, that's what it is. And it has to have an end point, you know, I don't want to keep tinkering with it for years. I think something just needs to be done. But I always, you you know, like this creativity book that I've just handed in, I know that I'm going to have more

thoughts about creativity, of course. And I know that in like 10 years time, I'm going to be much more wise on the topic than I am now. So I just think to myself, I can always write another one. Right. I have like a very abundant mindset when it comes to creativity. I don't think like I need to go back to past projects and I never feel like I'm going to run out. I always feel like I have new ideas. So, and also in this world we live in, you know, having my substack, for example, I have somewhere to put all my ideas whenever I want and it's really exciting. Yeah, I agree. I do a special episode for people who support the show called Teaching Song and a poem where I, you know, do a teaching and that for me is if I record it as an idea, teaching or an idea or I don't necessarily

love that word. I don't know what else to call it. Then I've captured it. I'm like, okay, it lives somewhere now. I may choose to extrapolate upon it later, but that's sort of my version of putting something on substack. All right, I want to spend a couple minutes on 36 things I know about myself as you turn 36. Yeah. One of the early ones I feel like I need to try, which is going to bed at 9 p.m. makes me feel like a superhero the next day. What time do you get up if you go to bed at 9 a.m.? About 7 and it's a lot of sleep. Okay. What if you went to bed at 11 and got up at 9? Does it have the same effectors? There's something about the 9. I mean, if I'm being completely honest and we are on this show. Apparently. It was when I gave up drinking. Because that's when I

would stay up drinking. I'd go to bed at like midnight because I'd be having all my glasses of wine. So it gets to 9pm and I'm like, do you know what? I'm kind of done with today. And I'll just go and read my book and then in the morning I can make my coffee and start another day. And I'm really enjoying the mornings like getting up earlier now. I like the ritual that me and my husband have like at 7 a.m. we go downstairs, we like have, you know, chats about the world. Like my life has just opened up in different ways. So, you know, back to what we were talking about, about losses and gains, you know, I lose those three hours of, like, drinking or whatever I used to do to numb out in the evenings.

And then I gain the next day. Yep. I heard somebody saying recently, I think it was semi tongue-in-cheek, but not completely. It was a conversation about aging. And one guy was saying that in the last couple years he had just given up drinking. And so he felt younger all of a sudden because he had, you know, he had stopped doing that. And the lesson they came up with was don't give up drinking or drugs too early in your life because you won't get the late career bump from it.

And I was like, ah, bless it. Well, that ship has already sailed for me. But I just thought that was funny how different you can feel. All right. I loved this one. I don't need to spend the whole day with someone. Even if you're my best friend, half a day of socializing is plenty for me. If that, if that, you know, half a day is quite long as well.

I just don't need, I don't need a lot of time with someone. I just, I like quality time with someone. But if I'm really close to someone, I can spend the whole day with them because that will mean like sitting in silence and doing what we want to do together and not having, like, I can't do like constant talking kind of all day. And I think what's so nice about getting older is you get to set these parameters. don't you? You get to say, I don't like doing that, and you don't have to explain yourself. So you are married. I can't recall your husband saying Peter.

Yeah. Paul. All right. I got the P and I got the biblical reference. I was in the neighborhood. Paul. So I'm assuming with Paul, you are able to have that some degree of that space while you're together so that you don't feel like you need to get away. I know you like to get time away and alone. but you don't need to feel like I got to get away from Paul every three hours. No, it's, it's, you know, one of those lovely kind of relationships, isn't it? I suppose when you, like, I would really struggle without him. He's like the one person that sort of is just part of the furniture for me. Like I love being around his energy.

There's no, there's no, like, he doesn't take anything from me. And, you know, we laugh about it because I don't know if you've heard of spoon theory. You know, that theory that people with chronic chronic fatigue, they say, Like, how many spoons have you got? And most people have, like, 12 spoons. And people with chronic fatigue have, like, three spoons, and they have to work out how to spend those spoons. And with Paul, it's like, he doesn't take my spoons.

He gives me spoons, but sometimes it's neutral spoons. Like, and so I can always be around him. And I also need to go away sometimes. I could go on my solo trips. I went away for a month last year on my own, because I just wanted to be completely alone for a month for no reason. And I don't have children, so I can sort of do that. So, yeah, I think the spoon thing has been really interesting for me.

Like, does that person take my spoons? That's a really great analogy. And there are people who I really do love, who I probably think do take spoons. Not that their personality or something about them drains them. It's maybe just like anything, you know. But that's what I love about my partner, Ginny, is that I've never articulated it in that way, but that's kind of it. She's the first person ever, and I actually never believed this, I would have this, that I'm not really wanting to get away from often. That says something about my previous relationships.

Probably says something about me also. But like, yes, I do like to be alone. And I almost never feel like I crave it because some of my own. somehow we exist in a space together in a way that it doesn't, it doesn't demand something of me. Yeah. That sounds. Yeah.

It's just there's, and I still sort of marvel at it because it seems, I feel so fortunate. Yeah. And it is amazing. I mean, I met Paul when I was 22 and I'm 36 now. So we've been together like nearly 14 years and that blows my mind. But I think why I want to go away by myself is because I, I think, I'm going to go away by myself, I think it was really important to remember who you are kind of on your own. And being away, being away for a month last year was just really just curiosity for me. I was like, what am I

like on my own? What do I, what restaurants do I go on my own? What, like, you know, how do I feel when I'm on my own? How, how do I want to spend my day on my own? And it's like, if you've been in a relationship that long, I don't get those opportunities, which is lovely, but also I'm curious. I'm curious. Yeah. My fantasy is, And I got this from reading Jack Kerouac when I was like 17 is that like he went away to like, you know, I don't think they have these so much, but they used to have fire towers that would be out in the middle of like some huge wilderness. And you would just be in this fire tower or at the cabin next to it by yourself for like three months. Wow. And I've always been like, what would that be like?

I'm just fascinated by the idea of just me and actually just me in a radically different. set of circumstances. Would you ever do that? Like go to some sort of island on your own? Yeah. I think I would. Yeah. I actually think that I would give that a try. I think I will. You know, I also want to do like a month long silent retreat, which I'll probably do at some point. I'm curious. Which has a similar feel because of retreat setting is so different than your normal life. What I find is like Ginny's going to go away tomorrow and she's going to be gone a week. But being in my normal household in my normal routine doing the normal things that I do is not the same as sort of like you did going somewhere totally new and seeing how I emerge. Yeah. And the other part of

it was when I was away for a month, I came back home with a lot of gratitude. I just realized actually how great my relationship is and how great my life is. And sometimes you just need, I think it's really good to have that reminder sometimes. Me too. Me too, 100%. Like, I just realized, I always thought of myself as sort of, to use the analogy, a bit of a lone wolf. And I realize, like, I'm just better as a person in nearly every way with Ginny in my life. Like, I just, it makes it, it's the best version of me emerges. There's, there's something. And that's just, that's wonderful because I feel like in some of my older relationships, the worst version of me emerged. All right, back to our 36 life lessons. because we are oh actually we are we are out of time we're going to do one more sometimes my life isn't falling apart i just need to go for a walk and maybe have a biscuit i stand by that one it's self-explanatory isn't it yeah it really is and it actually harks back to the nine p m because that's the other that's part b have a cup of tea and a biscuit if the world's really falling apart

or go to bed early before we wrap up i want you to think about this have you ever ended the day feeling like your choices didn't quite match the person you wanted to be. Maybe it was autopilot mode or self-doubt that made it harder to stick to your goals. And that's exactly why I created the six saboteurs of self-control. It's a free guide to help you recognize the hidden patterns that hold you back and give you simple, effective strategies to break through them. If you're ready to take back control and start making lasting changes, download your copy now, at one you feed.net slash ebook. Let's make those shifts happen starting today.

One you feed.net slash ebook. I am struck by how often after a certain time at night, I just don't feel good. I'm overtired. And I've learned to just go, I'm tired. I used to call it depression. Because the two feel very similar to me. Yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. And so for me, it's just like, okay, you've kind of, I love the spoons thing. I'm going to be thinking about that. Because like I'm out of spoons at that point. Yeah. And it's just reality. It's just facts. Like there's no need to, I don't overthink it. I don't analyze myself. I'm not like, why am I out of spoons? And I shouldn't be out of spoons. That's a big one. I shouldn't be this person. I should be the person in Italy with the cocktails. I shouldn't be this person in bed at 9 p.m. And the minute I just go, I'm out of spoons. That's what my body's saying. I'm going to protect myself and take myself to bed. Great life advice. Let's wrap it up there. Emma, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Your substat called the hyphen is really wonderful. Listeners can go there. And your book table for one is a lovely, hope-filled, but still psychologically complex and interesting novel. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought-provoking, I'd love for you

to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don't have a big budget, and I'm certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better, and that's you. Just hit the share button on your podcast app

or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world, and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the One You Feed community.