The One You Feed - Chris Brogan

Episode Date: March 11, 2014

This week on The One You Feed we have Chris Brogan.Chris Brogan is a best selling author, the publisher of the new online business magazine Owner, and the president of Human Business Works. He leads online classes on improving your business and yourself. He has a popular podcast and is one of the good guys in online marketing.Chris puts out a weekly newsletter that you can sign up for here. It is one of those rare emails that I read each week.We had a chance to go beyond (actually skipped entirely) online marketing and instead focused on being a better human. In This Interview Chris and I Discuss...The One You Feed parable.The bad wolf's smelly poop.The power of confidence.Building confidence by taking small risks.How limiting chasing comfort can be.Feedback and reward systems.The value of accountability.How mind reading others lands us in trouble.Permission.Starting where you are.How Seth Godin got Chris to read Pema Chodron.Chris' conversion to Buddhism.Dealing with setbacks.Than danger of the all or nothing mentality.Chris Brogan LinksOwner MagazineChris Brogan HomepageHuman Business WorksPre-Order Chris' latest book: The Freaks Shall Inherit the Earth: Entrepreneurship for Weirdos, Misfits, and World DominatorsTwitter- @chrisbroganSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Nothing good in life comes without discomfort. We humans loathe discomfort. We want to be comfortable all the time. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter.

It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you?

We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us today. Our guest on this episode is Chris Brogan, publisher and CEO of Owner Magazine, a great new business publication. He is also a sought-after keynote speaker who has addressed crowds of thousands. Chris is a New York Times bestselling author, and his upcoming book is

called The Freaks Shall Inherit the Earth, Entrepreneurship for Weirdos, Misfits, and World Dominators, which we think is a great description of our podcast. Hey, Chris, welcome to the show. Thanks. So happy to be here. As you know, our show is called The One You Feed, and it's based on the old parable where there is a grandfather who's talking with his grandson, and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us who are always at battle. One is a good wolf who represents bravery and kindness and love, and the other is a bad wolf who represents greed and hate, fear, name your poison. And the grandson

stops and thinks, and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start the interview off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in your work. Well, it's funny because in preparation for this show, I was thinking about it, of course, as I was instructed to do. And my girlfriend Jacqueline and I were just having this conversation in which I was explaining how I'm nervous about this upcoming event that we're both going to be participating in, where it's sort of her bailiwick, but I'm a lot out of my league there. And as I'm explaining it all, then I started thinking about the wolf I feed. And I was like, oh, well, I'm obviously feeding the wolf that

has fear and envy and all those other things and ego and all that. I was like, oh, crap. I just like fell right into Eric's shell. And my thoughts on the on the parable so first off i i guess this is probably because of my uh conversion to buddhism but i never think of them as good or evil i just think of them as a set of choices and so when i think of when i feed the envy and ego one what i really end up thinking is that sometimes you just that's all you can do sometimes you just can't help it that's the one you're going to feed right now. But what I try to think is – but every time I do that, out of those two wolves, one of them leaves smellier, worse poop. And it's that darker one.

And so if I feed the supposedly good wolf, if I feed the wolf that gives you better results, one would say, I know that the poop's easier to clean. But that other wolf, you know, there is going to be, you know, dog diarrhea. I have a bad case of diarrhea if I feed that bad wolf. Yeah, exactly. And that idea of good versus bad doesn't resonate with me exactly, but you start talking about a skillful or unskillful wolf and you sort of lose the teeth of the analogy. I'd like to talk to you a little bit. I've taken one of your online courses, Mastering the Digital Channel, and that's really what you're known for is your online marketing and that sort of thing. But I'd like to spend more time talking about your book, It's Not About the Tights, which is a book on bravery and courage. And I think

there's a lot of great stuff in there that really relates to what we're talking about. So I'd like to start off because you spend some time in there talking about confidence. Could you elaborate on what confidence is and how you get more of it? Well, I mean, in a lot of ways, confidence is one of the sexiest of all the drugs you know because confidence once you have it and once you feel it you're suddenly a lot taller than you used to be you're somehow slender too you're very uh good of color of your of your your healthy skin tone and all that everything to do with confidence comes with this incredible plus sign to everything else that goes on in your life what else is neat about confidence is once you feel it,

you're all of a sudden a lot better at everything you set out to do. You are suddenly a much better singer and a much better performer of stage and theater. When you're confident, you tend to be much more successful at surgery and landing planes. It's amazing to me that we don't really work on improving that set of skills that gets us there. And that we don't learn about how to take simple, small jump risks so that we can keep building on that confidence. And that we don't remember to take bigger ones every now and again, so we can keep expanding it. It's a lot like going to the gym, really. If you don't go to the gym for nine weeks, you really aren't likely going to pick up the weights and just do what you did last time. You're going to lose something out of that. But confidence is like that, too. If you don't work it every single day, if you don't really kind of keep stretching those muscles, you're going to be doomed. So to me, there's just a lot of opportunity in figuring out what you can get out of confidence. It's going to grow every other opportunity in your life.

in figuring out what you can get out of confidence, it's going to grow every other opportunity in your life. You talk about the way to get confidence is by taking, you sort of alluded to it there, small risks and practice. Can you share a little bit more about that? Well, sure. I mean, anything you can apply that to is a daily kind of experience. So for instance, maybe you want to, maybe you're having trouble meeting somebody that you want to have a romantic experience with. And so the way most people deal with that is that they stay at home and play more Halo and just sit around going, that's strange. I still haven't met a girl, uh, in, in my house playing my Xbox. And, you know, it's really weird. I keep looking behind the couch and there's still not one there, which, by the way, they should be grateful.

But the other way you can work on that is you could, you know, go to the bookstore and just talk to one person and just say, all I'm going to do, all I need for today's win is I'm just going to go up to that girl and say, oh, you're reading a book on Jeffrey Dahmer. I think that's a fascinating subject. And then no matter what they say back, just call that the win, that you open your mouth and said something to somebody else. The more we practice that, then we find we can start a conversation with anyone and then suddenly, oh, now I can do something. So to me, the practice is always going after something that's small on the way to the big thing. And then the other thing is to sometimes go and risk a few fewer chips on the way, meaning do something a little less vital before you have to do something vital. The other thing a lot of times we do crazy with confidence is we're waiting to ask our boss for a raise and we think that's the only way we can practice that. But no, you can go to a restaurant and you can

order really oddly on the menu. And the more you do that, the more confident you get because you have no problem telling the waitstaff you're going to change the whole process of how the food is prepared. And that lets you warm up to asking the boss and saying, I think I'm totally worth the raise. Let's get this done. So that's how I see it. That ability to sort of step out of your comfort zone in anything sort of translates then to the other areas you begin to get practice in, in being uncomfortable briefly while you work through it. Oh, yeah. And we humans loathe discomfort. We want to be comfortable all the time. If someone could say to you, you know, you want a really big, significant change in your life, don't worry. It'll be smooth and

comfortable the whole way. That's what we want to hear. But significant change in your life? Don't worry. It'll be smooth and comfortable the whole way. That's what we want to hear. But nothing good in life comes without discomfort. I mean, birth is supposedly one of the most painful things in the world, and yet it keeps happening every single day, it turns out. So I think that we have to really look at what we're willing to sacrifice to earn that confidence and to earn any other thing that we really want. Yeah, that seems to come up over and over again on the show as we talk with people about improving their lives is that if we just settle for comfort, we really aren't, we may be comfortable,

but we're not going to be happy. Another area that I wanted to talk about, you say that a lot of our efforts to change fail because we're missing two important systems, feedback and reward systems. What does that mean? Well, so in everything in our life, we need some sense of feedback and or some sense of reward to know how we're doing. It's so evident in video games. Like when we play a game, you know, if you, I'll use Halo because that's a good, easy example. If I hide behind things and don't shoot at anything, I don't get any points. And at the end of the adventure, you know, if you, I'll use Halo because that's a good easy example. If I hide behind things and don't shoot at anything, I don't get any points. And at the end of the adventure, you know, I have the lowest score out of all the other players. So I learned that I have to go out into the world if I want to get anything.

But that comes from the feedback of knowing that if I don't get any points, then I see myself at the bottom. And it comes from the rewards of once I get points, it tells me what actions that the world wants me to take. Everything is set up this way, but sometimes it's not as explicit, especially if it's a change we want to make. For instance, when anyone says, I'm starting to work on my health and my fitness, someone will say, great, how many pounds have you lost? That's only one possible method of measuring. how many pounds have you lost? But that's only one possible method of measuring. And sometimes it's the worst method because if you're gaining strength and building muscle, muscle weighs more than fat. So you could be losing size off your waist and still be, you know, you could be adding pounds on the scale. So you have to find, you know, a better feedback system and then a better

set of rewards. I have this other strange thing that people tell me. I'm on this great diet. I really can't wait until I can have a big piece of cake. And I feel like, well, that strikes me as that the reward you're saving up for here is the opposite of the choices that you're making in your diet. These don't go together to me. Maybe your reward would be the next 15 pounds I lose, I'm going to end up needing some new clothes anyway. I might as well plan to buy a nice outfit every such and such a marker or something. So when we are trying to make changes, we forget that we need some kind of measurement system and it needs to be a lot more incremental

than we think it has to be. That's the other thing. People say to me, oh, I'm a horrendous public speaker. And I'll say, how often do you practice? How often do you go out and speak? And they'll be like, never. I'm so scared. I don't ever want to do it. And I'm like, well, you're batting perfectly then. Because if you've never gone out to speak, then you must be an insanely successful speaker. Because you've never been booed off a stage. And so it turns out that we need to come up with ways to increment and build our reward systems. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts?

His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, Really No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign

Jason bobblehead. It's called really know really and you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Another key thing to making change seems to be accountability. If you get if you get the right feedback and reward system, and you tie that to some sort of accountability with other people always seems to be very successful. And I think you seem to be doing a fair amount of that these days. I know you're very focused on fitness and you're posting a lot of different pictures and things. And I'm assuming that's really from an accountability perspective to try and bring your support system into the loop on that? Yes and no. I try hard not to. I mean, I think it's important to have a group of support,

but it depends how you use it. So I find that I'm trying mostly to telegraph the work that I'm doing, but most of those pictures I take and stick online are for me. So I do it for myself to say, pictures I take and stick online are for me. So I do it for myself to say, I'm still at it. And, and, you know, also my girlfriend is on and spends time. And when she says nice things to me, I always get an extra boost. So that's, I try to limit the amount of people I care what they think. And, you know, it's down to about like one and a half. So, but I think that when accountability is really important, I think that having some sense of a system. The other thing is sometimes we do need the support really badly. And sometimes we have such negative feedback going on in our closest relationships that, you know, it'd be really important to have some kind of a system somewhere in the space. So, for instance, Jacqueline's working on this coaching program.

And one of the things we were building into it when we're talking about it was just that whole notion of, you know, sometimes your significant other doesn't want you to get healthier or more fit for some reasons, you know, related to their own psychology. Sometimes, you know, your parents, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of cultures where food is very important, the consumption of the food. And if you don't eat mom's cooking, you must be bad or you must not love her, etc., etc. So there's a lot of times when our local closest support system doesn't help us. The other is if somebody has really ambitious goals and is surrounded by the cubicle farmers of their world. If you have aspirations of being something that's outside the norm, you're the freak.

No one's going to really know how to quickly support you. If a kid says nowadays in school, I think I'd like to grow up to be an entrepreneur, I mean they're going to end up at the guidance counselor's office. So I think that there's a lot to finding your freaks. And I think that if anything, sometimes those kinds of things like putting those pictures online is sort of like the bat signal. And I'm saying, hey, other crazy people doing their own thing, unite. Yep. The internet's so amazing in that way that it does allow you to expand beyond your sort of geographical limitations with people. In the book, you also talk about mind reading, the sense that I do something and then I'm watching the people around me for their reaction and how often we get that wrong. It's pretty astounding once you clue to that, once you realize that you can't read

other people's minds. And once you realize that when you're waiting for this absolutely unreliable mirror and how silly that is to take that kind of feedback, it changes a lot. Like once you really cue to that and say, oh, I really shouldn't wait for someone else to say what I think. And by the way, I fall into it all the time and I'm very conscious of it. So it's not the easiest thing to shake. But ever since we're little tiny kids, all we really want in life is feedback, right? I mean, when we're a little baby and we start running away from our parent, we look over the shoulder like, do you see me leaving? Because I'd like you to acknowledge that I'm trying to leave right now. And when we're five or six, we look what I can do. When we're nine, look what I can do. I'll tell you every single day my inbox is stuffed with people telling me, look what I can do. All day long,

they just want me to say, good, you're a good person. I'd like to praise you because you are such a good kid um we're starved for it all humans are humankind's greatest need is the need to feel wanted and so part of that is when we sort of use these mirrors when we when we use other people to give us feedback and whatnot we're we're really throwing a lot of our uh psych you know psychic energy into somebody else's hands to accidentally use as a devastating weapon all the time. It's amazing the things that you could feel butthurt about that the other person has no idea because they're not mind reading you either. So as much as you think that,

oh, well, she must really not care enough about me if she's not running over and liking my Instagram photos within five minutes of me posting them. You know, that's crazy. That's, you know, quoting one of the most philosophical movies of all time, 300. This is madness. Right. I think we, we tend to only see it from our perspective and totally, and you talk about this in the book, totally miss that they've got a world going on inside of themselves that is what's real to them. So I may be in a meeting with somebody and they're reacting poorly and it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. It has to do with that they had a fight with their wife that morning or their mom's sick or they ate something bad for lunch. And I'm reading all this into it. And like you said, it is, it's madness because

there's no, there's no reality to it. And yet I think for a lot of us, it is one of the most real realities if we're not careful. Absolutely. And that whole point about, you know, trying to remember how everyone else's day isn't in any way tied to yours is, is so vital. And it's easier to try to give strangers that benefit. We always forget that the people closest to us also deserve the same benefit. It turns out the ally, the person who might even be in your bed every night, actually has a life outside of your greater well-being. And they may or may not have other problems or challenges on their mind or whatever. So sometimes even they can't give you exactly what you're looking for.

or whatever. So sometimes even they can't give you exactly what you're looking for. Yep. What's permission in regards to bravery? You use that term. What do you mean by that? So permission is pretty important because what I've come to learn is that so many people are waiting for someone else to tap them on the shoulder and say, you are now knighted. You may now go free and do these things that you were supposed to do. I met this young guy at an event a little while ago, like a few weeks ago, and he says, I really want to start doing entrepreneurial things. I can't wait until I get that opportunity. And I said, I'm sorry, but who's coming to give you that permission? Who's waiting to say to you, you go forth and be entrepreneurial now. I said, little kids take that permission away all on their own. They start lemonade stands,

whether or not mom and dad think it's a great day to do a lemonade stand. So, uh, who are you waiting for? And so to me, it's almost that scene where Napoleon takes the crown right out of the priest's hands and says, I'll King myself. thank you. You basically have to do that because the amount of people who say to me, yeah, well, I'm not Chris Brogan. I say, well, I'm not Chris Brogan. No one came to me and said, hey, it's your turn. Time to go be awesome. I just started doing stupid things that had nothing to do with my day job,

and my entire career is based on that. stupid things that had nothing to do with my day job. And that's my entire career is based on that. So to me, permission is one of the, one of the hardest ones because we're all just sitting around waiting for someone to tap us and say, okay, get in the game. But we are all that really important part of the universe that needs to be expressed. We just, a lot of us are still waiting for that, that phone call. Yeah. And I think that that ties to another idea that you talk about, which is you are where you are. You want to be over here, build a bridge. And I think that exactly what you said, you weren't always the Chris Brogan we know now. I mean, you didn't always have what you had. You started from the same place everybody would start. And I

think people tend to lose sight of that and get very easily discouraged by where they are. You know, I can still walk into pretty much any restaurant or any grocery store or any mall and scream out, do you know who I am? And most times no one will say yes. You know, you're pretty safe to realize that, you know, sometimes, you know, I thought about this the other day, somebody rather famous was asking me, how do you think I can get in front of such and such a person? And I was thinking, I consider you far ahead of the scale on me on this one, but evidently, you know, you think you still need some help. And that's true of everybody. Sir Richard Branson,

when I interviewed him, this man owns an island. He is knighted. He has 400 plus companies and a lot more dough than me. Still has things he's not so secure about. We all have these opportunities to realize this. It's that famous ancient song, that hymn sang by Seal. In a sky full of people and only some want to fly. Isn't that crazy? to life's baffling questions like... Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really.

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yep. And that idea of sort of starting where you are is, you use that phrase, and I, and I don't know how you and I originally started talking about it, but that's a book by Pema Chodron. Do you want to share a little bit about your experience with the Shambhala lineage? So it all comes in a really strange way. One day, Julian Smith, co-author of a couple of books with me

and friends, says to me, Seth Godin said I should read Pema Chodron. Have you ever read her? And I was like, no. So I download a bunch of Kindle books or whatever, and I think I bought a paper book or something. So that was kind of neat. And then Jacqueline and I were talking about it. I think she had already downloaded or read some of her books before and was kind of into her too, but we kind of both rediscovered her a little bit together and then a few weeks later jack says hey pema's uh gonna be at this event the shambhala event up in halifax nova scotia we should go and i was like yeah sure you know in my mind sort of like yeah definitely we should go to that that'll be great and uh and she said, Oh, good. I booked the tickets. And I was like, Oh, all right. So we're going. Yeah. And, uh, so we went and it was the, it was the funniest thing in the world. So it's

in this very big space and lots of people are going to be there and they're all very Shambhala Buddhists and there's hardly a newbie in the crowd, it seems. And they all seem to know what they're doing. And we're just, there's fans of P pema like we don't even know this the sakyan we don't know anything about this faith per se uh and we go there and we choose a seat somewhere near the back in case we have to leave and pema children ends up sitting diagonally behind us like 12 feet away and like write an eye vision contact or whatever and jack says i'm gonna go over and say hi. And we're like, what? You can't go over. You can't just go over and say, off she goes.

Next thing you know, they're hugging. They're like kissing and crying and like signing books and stuff like that. And they're like little BFFs. And like eight minutes into the day, it seemed. We end up spending a lot of time there. We have a great time. At the very end, they sort of very not too pushy say, hey, if you want to convert to Shambhala Buddhism, get in this line and you can do that. And really it's like the Sakyong whacks you on the shoulders with a pencil and you get a stupid piece of thread and you're now a Buddhist.

And that's about all that you do, right? Like there's no written test or anything. I didn't have to pee in a cup. Um, but then after that, I mean, it's just weird how it kept going. A year or so later, I ended up getting the opportunity to interview the Sakyong and we do a Skype video together and all that. And just, I don't, I never go to the Shambhala temples. You know, we went to the Boston one and it was nice, but it just kind of couldn't compare with hanging out with the Sakyong and hanging out with Pema Chodron. So I just breathe and sit and do all that meditation-y stuff and work on that. And I read Pema's books and I try to, you know, be

mindful every day. And that's all I really do. But what I liked about the Shambhala lineage was that I liked that it wasn't especially complex and that there wasn't a great deal of theology that you had to know. You could just kind of read into it a little bit. And it's a pretty low barrier to entry, I guess, as religions go or philosophies go. It's a pretty easy one to say, OK. Yeah, it is. It's very straightforward. And Pema Chodron was enormously helpful to me when she's got a book called When

Things Fall Apart. And when my first marriage fell apart, that book, you know, was sort of a lifeline to some degree. So I think we're getting near the end of time. I want to end with asking you to talk a little bit about a quote of yours that's one of my favorites, which is that a setback is not permission to abandon your plans. And I want to ask that in general. And also, I want to ask it because it was a couple months ago, you were talking, you were very excited about something that didn't happen. And I'd like to, I'd like to hear you say sort of how you apply that to yourself. applied that to yourself? Well, I get to apply it a lot. I mean, it's, it's so funny. Uh, if you look at this, the sphere of the sphere of like a, uh, an egg or something like that, you look at the outside of an egg, it looks nice and smooth, but of course, as you zoom in,

it's very porous and there's giant, huge fissures in it and all that kind of thing. I mean, all life was like that. Or the other way I look at it is the duck swimming. Ducks look great on top. We look under the water and it's a big crazy mess. Life is full of setbacks, but it's really how we approach them. It's how we observe and orient and decide what we're going to do with them that makes the whole world of difference. So for instance, this big thing I was thinking I was going to go into, I had sort of a couple of toes out of that water.

I had every part of me into that water except for a few toes because something just wasn't right. And I was really pursuing it with some wrong intentions even though it would have probably been a neat project. And having said no in the end or having it all not work just so, again, I have plans. I have things I need to do. And what they allowed me to do is really double down on all the other work I want to do. And I think a lot of times – you know, it's funny. I was on a different interview just a little earlier in the day, and I said to somebody that, you know, we're addicted to distraction.

We don't have ADD. We just love distraction because it's so much easier than focus. And I'm ridiculously guilty of that. And so as far as which wolf I'm going to feed, I'm going to try really hard to feed the one that's all about focus and that's all about really sticking to you know my set of core values and my goals and and not allowing the shiny things to sparkle and make me run away um but with setbacks i mean anything including fitness for instance uh people will say oh you know i totally fell off the wagon i ate a you know i ate a cake uh and a pie on top of it and i accidentally tripped on a bag of M&Ms and ate those too. So I'm not going to go to the gym for a month because I feel so guilty. Well, that seems pretty tumultuous.

And by the way, it's so funny that it feels like that's an overt exaggeration, of course, but it's not that far from how certain people behave or act. And I hear the strangest stories like that, you know, well, you know, I missed a day at the gym, and then I felt bad about that. So I missed a month. You're sort of giving yourself compound interest on your own choices of sin. So I guess if I were you, I maybe would, you know, revisit your plan and jump back on it. I think it's this idea of all or nothing or perfection. Like if I don't do it exactly right, then I'm just not going to do it. Um, which is, as you said, a fairly ineffective way to, to get anywhere. Cause you are going to have setbacks in, in anything we do. So.

Yeah, I haven't really seen perfection doesn't seem to exist a lot of my life, except for the love of my life. You know, there's not a whole lot of perfection in this universe yep well chris thank you very much for uh for joining us i i enjoyed the interview and i've enjoyed getting to know you over uh the last period of time online my utter pleasure thanks so much for having me and for such a refreshing and interesting conversation thank goodness we didn't even once talk about tweeting or anything. We did not. We did not. We avoided all that. Well, thank you very much, and we'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. You can learn more about Chris Brogan and this podcast at oneufeed.net slash Chris Brogan.

Oh, hey, listeners. This is Chris from The One You Feed. And, you know, Eric just left the room. This is Chris from The One You Feed, and Eric just left the room. I can tell that a lot of people listen to this just because we get thousands of downloads every week. But Eric's a little bit more of a stats junkie, and I thought just to make him feel better, I'd edit this into the end of the podcast. We'd really like to hear from you if you could just email him at eric at one, you feed.net, just make them feel better. Just say something nice. You don't really even have to mean it if

you don't want to. Thanks. Oh, by the way, while you're out there emailing Eric, since you're already on the internet, uh, we also kind of want you to go on the iTunes store and just, you know, give us a great review if you would. Thanks. I'll let you go now. Bye.