The One You Feed - Claire Hoffman

Episode Date: December 21, 2016

Please Support The Show With a Donation   This week we talk to Claire Hoffman Claire Hoffman works as a magazine writer living in Los Angeles, writing for national magazines, covering culture, religion, celebrity, business and whatever else seems interesting. She was formerly a staff reporter for the Los Angeles Times and a freelance reporter for the New York Times. She has a masters degree in religion from the University of Chicago, and a masters degree in journalism from Columbia University. She serves on the board of her family foundation, the Goldhirsh Foundation, as well as the Columbia Journalism School. Claire is a native Iowan and has been meditating since she was three years old. Her new book is called: Greetings from Utopia Park: Surviving a Transcendent Childhood. In This Interview, Claire Hoffman and I Discuss... The One You Feed parable Her new book: Greeting from Utopia Park: Surviving a Transcendent Childhood. Growing up in a transcendental meditation community How that community changed over time The meditation only trailer park Rationality versus belief How things can be so much more beautiful and strange than logic allows Moving away from the meditation community in her late teens Being tired of the negative cynical voice in her head Revisiting the meditation community many years later Can meditation cause people to levitate? Quieting the cynical doubting mind Is evolution antithetical to happiness? Yogic flying: what it is and what it looks like How she felt about seeing her mom attempt to fly The desire to escape being human, to be divine That part if being who she is is feeling uncomfortable Accepting what it's like to be a person Her evolution as a meditator That she doesn't aspire to being enlightened Claire Hoffman Links Homepage Twitter Facebook Please Support The Show with a DonationSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I was so frustrated with the voice in my head, the sort of cynical voice that was constantly kind of negative. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter.

It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you?

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Our guest on this episode is Claire Hoffman who works as a magazine writer living in Los Angeles. Claire writes for national magazines covering culture, religion, celebrity, business Claire Hoffman and a master's degree in journalism from Columbia University. She serves on the board of her family foundation, the Goldhirsch Foundation, as well as the Columbia Journalism School. Claire is a native Iowan and has been meditating since she was three years old. Her new book is called Greetings from Utopia Park, Surviving a Transcendent Childhood. If you value the content we put out each week, then we need your help. As the show has grown, so have our expenses and time commitment.

Go to oneufeed.net slash support and make a monthly donation. Our goal is to get to 5% of our listeners supporting the show. Please be part of the 5% that make a contribution and allow us to keep putting out these interviews and ideas. We really need your help to make the show sustainable and long lasting. Again, that's oneufeed.net slash support. Thank you in advance for your help. And here's the interview with Claire Hoffman. Hi, Claire. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to talk with you again. As we were talking about earlier, we had you on before, and we lost the interview. We didn't misplace it. We lost the hard drive that it was on, which was a shame because it was a great interview. But I'm happy because I get to talk to you again. So thank you for agreeing to come back on.

It's a double delight. Well, let's start like we always do with the parable. So there is a grandfather who's talking to his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed, hatred, and fear. And the grandson stops, and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather, and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I think it's this idea of working within yourself to create happiness and not looking outside.

I think it's this sort of powerful idea that you can kind of create your own reality to some degree with what you put your attention on. your own reality to some degree with what you put your attention on. And I mean, of course, there's a million extenuating factors, but I think that the way that we choose to look at the world and the decisions we make about that really affect our happiness and sort of if we lead a valuable life. Yeah, I agree. I think at the most basic level, it's really about where are we putting attention and being able to put attention on certain things. One way to get better at that is to meditate. And you've got quite a history there. Your book is called Greetings from Utopia Park, Surviving a Transcendentent childhood, where you essentially grew up within the heart

of the, at that time, burgeoning TM community. Do you want to tell us a little bit about those early years in your life? Sure, yeah. My family moved in 1983 to a little town in Iowa, and we had been living on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. And it was my mom and my brother and I, my dad had kind of taken off in the dark of night, if you will. And so my mom moved us to Iowa,

which had become the sort of global headquarters for the Transcendental Meditation Movement. And TM was something that she had gotten involved in when she was in college and really fallen in love with and she had gone to courses in Europe with the guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and he you know in the 70s 60s and 70s and onward started this kind of global movement of followers who believed like he did that his special trademark form of meditation, a mantra-based meditation, would create world peace and change the world. So he, in the early

70s, bought this little bankrupt university in this tiny rural town in Iowa. And he asked all his followers to come there and to meditate together. And so in 1983, with my dad having just taken off and being broke and living in Manhattan, my mom decided to move us there. And, you know, initially, in terms of what my childhood was like, I mean, it was complicated, like everybody's childhood. But, you know, it was amazing to be a part of this kind of utopian movement and this arrival of people who felt like we were on the brink of, you know, the dawn of the Age of Enlightenment was what they called it. and everything kind of revolved around meditation. So once I was at the private school, Maharishi's private school for kids, which was called the Maharishi School of the Age of Enlightenment, you know, we started class the first thing in the morning with meditation, and then we talked about his sort of philosophy of living,

and everything kind of was referring back to meditation and Maharishi's idea of the unified field as the sort of source of all knowledge. And, you know, in the beginning of the end of the day, my mom meditated, you know, before she took me to school for two hours and after school for two hours. So everything in our life kind of revolved around meditating. And so you grew up in that community and ultimately became a little bit, would disillusioned be the right word? Yeah, I think that's a great word. You know, I mean, there were a bunch of factors that sort of led to that disillusionment. You know, my father came back into my life when I was around 12 years old, and he kind of brought this outside perspective.

And at that moment, he came back. It was also this moment in the sort of history of the TM movement where things had gotten kind of extreme, in my opinion. So, you know, Maharishi never lived in Iowa, and he communicated with us through telecast. So we would go to the dome buildings. These are these giant golden dome shaped buildings where people meditated together. And he would sort of beam in from India or Europe, wherever he was, and kind of offer instruction on how to live. And he was extremely ambitious. He had like incredible vision for the world and how he wanted to shape it according to his vision. And, you know, those were sort of marching orders. And over the years in Iowa, it was like we were

sort of the constant recipient of these incoming ideas and marching orders. And so life became very regimented. You know, I mean, the idea of what you would eat and how you would drink and the clothes you would wear and the kind of architecture that you were supposed to build, everything kind of became Marishi's vision. And, you know, at that point in the late 80s and early 90s, when I was a young teenager, I just, I started to kind of see the hypocrisy of it. You know, there was a real emphasis on fundraising for that vision. And, you know, I mean, we were broke, we were living in Utopia Park, which is the name of the meditator-only trailer park that we lived in. It's not a phrase you hear often. No. Meditator-only trailer park. Yeah, exactly.

Meditator-only, though, you hear a lot in Fairfield. Yes. But, you know, it just became obvious to me or it felt obvious to me that, you know, my mom was focused so much on sort of achieving higher states of consciousness and enlightenment. But she was like being kind of worked to death. You know, I mean, she was juggling three jobs in order to pay the tuition of the private school and the fees for the dome and, you know, struggling to be able to afford things like special medicine that, you know,

was going to raise your consciousness. So I felt like we were very much priced out of the enlightened vision that he was offering. And, you know, I mean, as a 13 year old, like, you know, you love finding hypocrisy. So I was, I was on it. And so, so you grew up and then you, you left there at some point in your teenage years, right? Yeah. I left when I was 17 and I went away. I finished my last year of high school with my father in Los Angeles and then went to college. And, you know, I've never moved back. I've gone back to visit quite a bit.

cynical about the movement and about Marishi and, you know, really concerned about my mom's life there. You know, worried about her being victimized in some way, mostly economically, I should say, like the economic issues, you know, that made a lot of sense. And when I would tell people about where I grew up, you know, everyone would kind of roll their eyes and say like, oh, right, that's the way it always goes. That's the pattern, right? Like inspirational guru, exciting utopian, euphoric time, and then restrictions and collapse. But, you know, I mean, after I had my first daughter, And after I had my first daughter, I kind of did, you know, like a spiritual version of a double take, if you will. Yeah, I mean, I'm trying that one out on you.

The spiritual double take, I like it. Yeah, and I kind of felt like, well, wait a second, I've tossed off all these ideas and values that I grew up with and held sacred for so long. And now I have a kid and a parent and I had a great life or I have a great life. But there was this sort of feeling of shallowness a little bit. And I really longed and missed the meaning that I'd grown up with and the sense of purpose and the sense of value and the sense of magic. You know, I mean, we really felt like we were changing the world and that's a great feeling. And so I went back when I was, I went back about five years ago and did a month long meditation course there. And it kind of forced me to complicate my vision, you know, and kind of move past the cynicism that I had arrived at at age 13

and have a muddier version of what had happened and what the meaning and what the value of it was and of what it continues to be. Yeah, so you're describing basically you have a successful life, you have a child, everything looks good, and yet you're feeling that entirely common and modern sort of emptiness. Yes. And so you went back to sort of your childhood and where all this was, and the book is really you're retelling your childhood, you're talking about you going back there, what that experience is like. Wonderful book.

I would highly recommend anybody to get it. I enjoyed reading it. And through the book, you know, I think that the main theme that sort of stood out to me was really this idea of rationality versus belief. Yeah, it's like my favorite topic, so I love it. Yes. Yeah. And really the tension between those, and the thing that I think is interesting is in the book and the way you put it,

I kind of walked away with a feeling that said, those are both tools, and they're appropriate tools in certain circumstances, like, rationality is not the tool to use for everything, nor is belief. And, and so let's, let's talk a little bit about that you have a line where you're talking about your mother, and you say, you know, you finally realized, you know, she used to smile like she knew something that you didn't. And you said she'd known that things were so much more beautiful and strange than logic allowed. Yeah. I mean, I think that this is like, was sort of the big reveal for me and writing the book that I didn't know I was going to figure out

in writing it, which is that, you know, I struggle with these different parts of myself, as I imagine many people do, where by the time I got to the place where I was going to go back there and take this month-long meditation course, I was so frustrated with the voice in my head, the sort of cynical voice that was constantly kind of negative and taking things apart. You know, I mean, I work professionally as a journalist and that is like the go to position usually is like, what's what's that person up to? Like, what's the deal? And I just was exhausted with that perspective, you know, and I felt like it had really kind of shut down some other part of me. But before I moved to belief, I will say that in writing the book and seeing as a kid

how that doubt and that rationality kind of saved me at the same time. Like, it pulled me out. It kept me from being sort of swept under by the intensity of the belief and, you know, kind of the tragedy of being in a community that was so at once spiritually and economically focused. And it sort of allowed me some distance and space, you know, and moved me out. And so as much as I was frustrated by it in going back and revisiting my childhood, I saw how that rationality and that cynicism and that doubt really kind of rescued me in so many ways. Now, on the other hand, you know, when I went back for this meditation course, I, as I I said was so frustrated with that feeling

of like I had to take everything apart and you know that line that you read is you know after I have this kind of intense experience in meditation where I levitated which we can talk about I never know when to pop that one out. When to drop the levitation, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, Maharishi, his advanced form of meditation, his TMC program, is supposed to kind of give you these superpowers, including the ability to levitate. And so, you know, as I said, so much of life in Fairfield revolved around meditation, but more specifically, it revolved around flying. And so, you know, as an adult going back and,

you know, paying thousands of dollars and signing up for this course and, you know, leaving my one-year-old for, you know, two or three weeks at a time to go meditate, you know, two or three weeks at a time to go meditate, I felt this immense pressure to experience and be open to this, I don't know, this power or whatever you want to call it. And I found myself, and the line that you're reading is sort of this moment while I was in the room, you know, being initiated and given this sort of new mantra or sutra I I felt like I would I needed that cynical doubting mind to be quiet in order to be swept into some other space yeah I think that is the challenge of I think the rational mind. And obviously, it has tremendous value. It's created civilization. And, you know, it keeps a lot of us out of a lot of trouble. And yet, it can be a

harsh taskmaster. Yeah, in that it is, you know, most states of expanded consciousness, and even a lot of states of happiness and ecstasy are kind of happen when that part of the brain sort of gives itself a rest. Right. I mean, if you think about it, ecstasy and happiness and joy, I'm not sure that those are actually evolutionary traits, you know, like the thing that helps you survive is this questioning and wondering and looking ahead and, you know, apprehension. But those are all kind of antithetical to happiness. So, you know, as you said, sort of this modern condition of trying to balance out those two, because, you know, I mean, we have lives now,

some of us, where we have the space and the ability to pursue happiness, you know, our own happiness. And I felt like an extra weight of that, I would say, more than the average bear, but given that I grew up with like this sort of adage that we should all be in 24-hour bliss. And so, you know, I was like, wait, this is like not even an hour of bliss. It's a tricky one, though, because I think on one hand, surrendering to the mystical or the cosmic is what allows you to have these really profound experiences. I mean, I think love is, you know, the sort of universal example of that, right? Where you can find a fault in anybody, but when you meet somebody and fall in love, they're perfect. You know, is that rational? It's not rational, but it's what you feel. It is the sort of suspension of the doubt and the kind of logical part of your mind.

But what you get in return is so incredible. Right. And yet, you know, I think there's a lot of danger to it, too. I mean, that's part of why I wrote the book is that I think surrendering your power or trying to find the answer to life or, you know, following somebody and kind of living according to their vision. These are dangerous things to do. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer.

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Bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's Eric from the one you feed happy holidays to you all. I know that the holidays can be a challenging time for some people. If you're looking for a little extra support, you can go to our Facebook group where you can chat with others, which is oneufeed.net slash Facebook. Also, another way to help the show is to go to oneufeed.net slash Amazon, and you can purchase things there. You may not know, but every show we have show notes, and in there, there are links to the books that we talk about. And if you buy the book through that link we get a few dollars from it so then on to donations so for those of you who've contributed

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And you could go to oneufeed.net slash donate and help us out. It really does mean a lot to us, and it really does help us keep the show going. Thank you. And here's the rest of the interview with Claire. You got to witness this flying in your childhood, correct? And maybe you can describe what that felt like to you when you saw that. From the time we moved to Fairfield, Iowa, everything was about levitating. And, you know, my mom desperately wanted to take the flying course and the benefactor came forward and did it. And then, you know, flying was this sort of mysterious, amazing thing that adults were always sort of talking about. But, you know, flying was this sort of mysterious, amazing thing that adults were always sort of talking about. But, you know, it was also the thing that took my mom away from me

for four hours a day, you know, and she was a single working mother. So it really chipped into our time. So it had this just enormous reputation. And I think, you know, being a kid, my vision of what flying was probably, you know, like... What most of our vision of flying is. Are you flying? Right, you are off the ground for a period of time moving around. Exactly. And Maharishi had said, you know, you have to keep it secret, no one can see it.

And then there was this point in the mid-80s where he just kind of changed his mind, I guess, and decided to make it public. And so initially, you know, in Fairfield, the kids from the Maharishi school got brought over to the dome and we got to watch the flying. And it was a really strange experience because, you know, it's sort of all this pomp and circumstance around it and all the sitting there. It's very hushed. And, you know, they have these three guys lined up and they have them lined up like it's going to be

a race, which didn't seem to like I don't know why. They're really into setting it up like a race, which is not how people like, you know, they do it on a daily basis. This was just like the performative flying, I guess. And, yeah, you know, they started kind of frog hopping, bouncing on the foam.

And I felt kind of disappointed and I felt really embarrassed and confused. and confused. And, you know, I mean, I think lately, there's a lot of people in this country who have experienced what it's like to have something really strange happen, and then as quickly as possible, you normalize it. And I, you know, it's a familiar feeling to me. And I did that there. You know, I was young, I think I was 10. And so I wasn't ready to kind of have my whole world fall apart. I wasn't ready to ask big questions, but it felt very weird. And then I just tried to like, sort of not think about it and make it okay for a while. And so it looked to you like, what was your feeling that it was sort of a fraudulent thing that they weren't? I mean, I think you were expecting people to be flying and they were really

kind of bouncing on the cushion. Yeah, they were, I mean, they're sort of sitting lotus or Indian style and sort of hopping on their butts. It was very human and like bodily and awkward. I mean, it would be like sort of seeing somebody do a terrible dance on the dance floor. Except that you're expecting something spectacular. Yes, I was expecting something spectacular. And then there was sort of the modified explanation given of like, okay, you know, people aren't't levitating they haven't reached high enough states of consciousness but if they keep flying then they're gonna then they're gonna be able to levitate someday but as far as i know no one has levitated to my knowledge yep and so you went back

and took the flying course i don't know why almost every time i say that it makes me want to laugh or giggle a little bit because it just sounds so ridiculous try try growing up for 20 years with everyone being like oh i have to go to the dome to fly but then i'll be back i mean flying was like the sort of number three verb after like sleeping and eating right right yeah i guess just because it's such a crazy thing to be able to do that's why it you have to be very spiritually advanced to pull it off. Must be the allure of it. Because, well, I guess flying would be kind of cool. It's actually the last one in a group of like 16. It's the one that actually physically manifests. But there's other sutras you're saying before invoking all sorts of awesome powers. And I think it's, yeah, people wanted to be superhuman. I want to come back to and talk about your experience during and after the class,

but we just kind of wandered into another of the key areas, I think, that really resonated to me throughout the book. And it was really this desire to, like you said, to be more than human, to escape being human, to be above that in some way. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it perfectly parallels the belief and rationality tension, but I think there is this tension. I saw it in my own life, in my family and in my community between the sort of fate of being human and being flawed. And it's for me, I saw that with my father's family. It was, you know, had a lot of alcoholics and suicides and this sort of vicious circle of vice

and self-loathing that would happen. And, you know, for both my parents, they were trying to kind of move away from that family history with meditation. And, you know, the pendulum swing in the other direction is this kind of superhuman or divine or godly state of existence or enlightenment. You know, I mean, that's what we were, what we called it. That's what we were chasing. And, you know, so I saw growing up this kind of swing between, you know, what we were, which was not perfect, whether it was poor or not successful, you know, or whatever the qualities were that made you not enlightened. Those are both economic for some reason, but that was what, those were our problems.

But, you know, other people had others or their addiction or whatever they were. And, or, you know, this desire to be, you know, divine and basically like Maharishi. And Maharishi for us was this kind of perfect human being. He embodied all these, you know, pure qualities of the universe. And, you know, he was said to be enlightened. And, you know, I think many of the adults in the community were kind of striving to be like that. So that's striving at once this great thing in that, you know, I think it's important to want to improve and to change yourself. And at the same time, it can kind of lead you to unrealistic places.

That is one of the questions that sits at the heart of this show, I think, is how do you strive to be better and to improve and accept yourself and your life as it is? Because it seems like both those things need to be present, and yet they sometimes feel like they're pulling in opposite directions. Yeah, I mean, I want to know, how do you resolve that tension? I do, I want to know. Well, I don't know that I always do, and I think maybe part of it is just recognizing that that tension is there and that it's okay that it's there.

Yeah. Is probably a big part of it. And I think that being very comfortable with paradox and ambiguity, and you say it somewhere in the book, too too that there just aren't easy answers to these questions and when you end up in a situation that is sort of you know or is cult like like you were in it's and we see it in all around in all aspects of life I think this desire for there to be an easy answer because being human is hard and it's difficult and it's scary and it's sometimes wonderful and but if you look at so many of the things throughout history and in our culture they are some variation on i don't want to be human i want to look better than human right i want to you know our our cultures focus on on looks and not getting old and so it reflects in that way and and all types of addictions and and drugs are some like you don't feel you feel above that for a period of time and and and so much of the spiritual quest can

can turn into that and i think the the so for me i think finding the the tension between those or resolving the tension is like i said i don't know that you it resolves but i think that more and more over the last couple years i've thought about that the buddha's greatest teaching to me might have been the middle way that that it's okay that there there is going to be these being pulled different ways and i can sort of sit in the middle of that and is if i'm doing some version of both those things if i'm all the way over on i've got to be better i got to make life better i'll be happy when this happens that's no good and if i'm all the way over on the i want to be happy all the time and enjoy my life i mean that led me heroin addiction, because that's kind of what that was, right. And so for me, it's where is it in the

middle of those two things? How can I at least, if not embrace them both at the same time, bounce back and forth between them in a in a smaller sort of arc? Yeah, I mean, I think that's the interesting thing about like, like about a meditation community is because I think that's the interesting thing about a meditation community is because I think that people imagine, and there were aspects of this, that it's a sort of chilled out, blissful community of kind of acceptance, right? I mean, that's sort of how we imagine meditation. And yet, like the meditation became this vehicle in itself for changing ourselves. And it went to this extreme. And I think that I do see so many kids who've come out of that community who are either really successful or who struggle with addiction and depression. addiction and depression. And I think that there was this idea that you should be ideal.

And so it's this extreme of what we, I think every person grows up with, depending on the culture. But, you know, I mean, literally, we got ideal student awards who best embodied these qualities. And I think that you could see that as a beautiful thing, and there's a part of it that it is, and you don't not want to do that. But at the same time, this idea that we are not okay the way we are is a dangerous one. Probably the beginning of my double take from the disillusionment was like, in my 20s, kind of realizing like, wow, my mom didn't just sit through like her 20s and, you know, party with her friends and watch TV. She moved to this tiny town and believed in something. And that's pretty incredible. You know, it's more than I was doing. It's a big decision. It's a hard decision. It's a strong decision to make. And there's part of

that that's really impressive to me. Like that reaching is really beautiful and aspirational. But then I also saw the way that it kind of trapped her. You say, I've come to believe that part of being who I am is being uncomfortable. Right. I think, you know, I've tried, I mean, what you said, the sort of middle way idea, those moments where I feel uncomfortable or I feel that kind of pull away from being present, if you will. So,

you know, perfect example would be, you know, hanging out with my adorable four-year-old daughter who's just like largely a bucket of joy, except for when she's not. But, you know, I mean, just playing with her and then kind of getting bored or distracted, you know, I mean, just playing with her and then kind of getting bored or distracted, you know, or starting to think about my to-do list, you know, my next thing to do. If I take that sort of micro slice, you know, sort of being in the moment and being joyful and not having a thought in the world, and then, you know, the thoughts are coming up, and they're distracting, and they can lead to anxiety and these other feelings. And yet, at the same time, they do serve a purpose. Like, they push me forward, they lead to change in my life, they make me a better person. And so I try to just kind of not get caught up in the actual feeling of the distraction, but kind of witness it. That's a really garbled answer, but I think I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you

and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. We'll be right back. And I might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, no, really. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No, Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You have a paragraph in the book that is beautiful, that speaks to this incredibly well.

So I'm just going to read this because I thought that it was a summation of a lot of what we've talked about. So here I sit, as anxious as anyone I know. I meditated this morning, and for the first few minutes I felt jittery and distracted, thinking about the things I needed to do. And then somewhere along the line, I checked out. My brain stopped, and 20 minutes later, I blinked open my eyes and felt pretty good. I heard my new baby daughter cooing in her crib, and I went to pick her up. Her whole body quivered with excitement, and she flapped her arms when she saw me, shrieking with joy. In her dark bedroom, the sound machine playing soft waves, I pressed my face against hers and she gave me a huge octopus-like kiss. This is divine, I thought. This is happiness.

And then the phone rang and the dog started barking and I laid Vivian down to change her diaper and knocked over a bottle of milk on the floor. God damn it, I muttered. The dogs kept barking. Vivian started crying. Things had turned and the moment was over. Happiness was a ghost to chase. And I love that beyond the fact that it's just beautifully written because I think it describes what it's like so much

to be a person. And I think just accepting it, that's what it's like to be a person makes it so much better. Because you were feeling happy, you had this divine moment, and then the next thing something bad happens, and then something good happens, and we just bounce around. And I just believe some of that is natural. And certainly we can train and meditate to do less of that. But I think so much of our pain sometimes comes from that second arrow, that telling ourselves we shouldn't be this way. I have to say there's a part of me that is

enough of a meditator that I see a parallel there, you know, where it's like when you're meditating, if you become focused on just holding on to the mantra or focused on trying to clear your just holding on to the mantra or focused on trying to clear your mind of thoughts or distractions, you're going to have a bad meditation. You're going to feel frustrated because your brain just does it. It's natural. So, you know, a big part of my sort of evolution as a meditator is just been the ease of letting things come and go and really having no feeling about it. And I say that, like I learned to meditate when I was three and I probably have only felt that in the last seven years or so. So it's taken me a long time to get there, even though I could recite to you the initiation you know, initiation ceremony where they tell you that

it's taken me a long time to sort of experience that acceptance and not, you know, as soon as you start getting in there and judging things or assessing it or labeling it, you know, you've popped yourself out. And that's hard. And I think it's the same thing with happiness. Like, even when you read that passage to me and you read me, like, swearing and yelling at the dogs and the baby crying, I immediately feel some, like, judgment about myself about that. You know, like, I'm like, oh, God. I hate that I'm like that.

I hate that I can get pissed off really easily. And I didn't like it about my parents. They were the same way. I didn't like it about them. And yet, I think it's just the way I'm wired. And I don't know that I can change it, so the best I can do is kind of be aware of it and move through it. You know, that's where I'm at.

Yeah, I have these moments where I generally tend to believe that. Like, it's best to try and be the best person you can and also accept kind of who you are and how you're wired. And this is the reasonable level of happiness or contentment to expect. So a lot of me feels that way. And then I have these moments where I feel sort of that pull towards like, oh, you know, non-duality, feeling oneness with the world. Like, am I selling myself short with saying that this is kind of the way it is. But when I look at the human condition and I look at the spiritual teachers that I respect,

they're all pretty clear on, like, yes, this stuff helps. There are some beautiful moments. And a lot of the time, you're a human. Right. And that's the way it is. And so that gives me a lot of comfort. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, non-duality means, like, means that I get

to be both an asshole and not an asshole, right? I'm not quite sure that's the teaching. I feel like, but, you know, I mean, who said that being enlightened was supposed to be just, like, this benefic, like, you know, happy state. Like, who says that being enlightened doesn't mean that you get to be, I mean, I don't know why I'm even saying this, because I do not aspire to be enlightened at all. I just sort of aspire for some mid-level of happiness in my life. But, you know, I think there is, you know, I just don't understand who got to decide, you know, what it was all supposed to look like, or what being a perfect person or a contented person or an enlightened person,

what that was supposed to look like. Why can't it be me swearing at my kids and my dog? Yep, I think it might be able to. I think that the interesting thing, most of my spiritual training training such that I have has been in the Buddhist tradition. And I think there's that idea on one hand of perfect contentment. Nothing ruffles me, you know, I'm just but I don't think that's really what is being taught. I think that's a superficial interpretation of it. interpretation of it. And I think that what's being what's being taught is to be present to what is, even when that might be potentially painful. And I, you know, the thing that I

mostly get out of a lot of that stuff is to not make things worse. Like that life presents a certain amount of suffering and pain, or I'm going to use the word pain, life presents a certain amount of pain, whether that be physical pain, people you love leaving or dying, whether that be the pain is your own mood or your crappy digestive system or whatever it is. And that's the reality. And how do I just not make that worse? Because I've got a long resume of really making things worse. Yeah, I mean, that's sort of the question, right? I mean, I do think, I think that from what I've seen, first of all, like the wanting things to be perfect and wanting to be this sort of unflappable being, I was raised in a community

where that was expected of people. And I think it created an enormous amount of pressure. And, you know, pressure has to be released in different ways. So it led to people having affairs or, you know, sort of having unhappiness or mental illness. I mean, it led to all sorts of things. Starting podcasts. Worst of all, starting podcasts. Yes. Most dangerous. Yeah, I mean, sure, lots of

totally happy people, but the people who put that pressure on themselves, I did not see those being the happy people. You know, I think those are the people who, it actually creates a lot of self-loathing and a desire for escape escape because you can't you can't be yourself right you're sort of faking it because nobody is truly like that you know and and we all have different complicated personalities you know and i think the other thing on top of that that i've seen with people i love who have struggled with addiction is that almost that pressure or that sense of pride that really makes things worse. You know, it makes it harder to ask

for help. It's harder to admit that you have a problem. You know, it's harder and it feels like a lot of the desire to escape comes from a lack of self-acceptance. I mean, it sounds like such a truism, but, you know, it's an unrealistic expectation of who you should be and in the disappointment, you know, wanting to escape. Well, that's the tragic spiral of addiction. You feel bad, so you take a drug, which makes you do things that you don't feel good. So you feel worse than you did before, which means you have to take a drug to, I mean, it dieting, all of it. It's, you know, it's all about sort of self-recrimination and then, you know, crazy restrictions and then, you know, sort of reacting against that. And it's crazy. It sucks being a person. That's my, that's what I would say about,

I mean, it's also amazing and incredible, but it's hard. Yeah yeah most of the changes i've made in my life have come out of a positive place and not out of a negative place you know self-recrimination seems to only work as a motivator for a short period of time yeah very short so we've not solved anything here but um which is what i expected i i i mean i loved your book. It was very well written. And again, I think that it gets to some of these fundamental paradoxes that sit in the middle of our lives in a really great way. And I think that's why I liked reading the book and why I have enjoyed talking to you yet again for a very long time about this. So I think that's where we're going to wrap it up. But, you know, thanks again. Really, I did enjoy it both last time and this time. And I think there's a lot to talk about

here. Eric, thank you so much. I really, I feel like we're friends now. Yes, I agree. Podcast friends. I've lured you into this dark world. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. All right. Take care. You too. All right. Okay. Bye. You can learn more about Claire Hoffman and this podcast at oneufeed.net slash Claire.

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