The One You Feed - Dan Wilson

Episode Date: November 10, 2014

[powerpress]  This week we talk to Dan WilsonThis is another interview that has great personal significance to us. Dan was part of Trip Shakespeare which is one of Eric's all-time favorite bands. He also went on to form Semisonic another band that we loved.Dan Wilson is a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter, musician, producer, and visual artist. He is known as the leader of the band Semisonic, for which he wrote the Grammy-nominated "Closing Time" and the international hit "Secret Smile." Wilson has also released several solo recordings, including the 2014 release Love Without Fear. He was also a member of the Minneapolis psychedelic rock band Trip Shakespeare.Wilson is also an acclaimed and highly successful co-writer and producer, who has collaborated with a diverse array of artists including: Adele, Pink,Keith Urban, Weezer, Dierks Bentley, John Legend, Taylor Swift, Nas, Spoon, Alex Clare, Birdy, and Preservation Hall Jazz Band.His collaborations have earned him two Grammy Awards. His first was the 2007 Song of the Year Grammy for "Not Ready to Make Nice," one of the six songs he co-wrote with the Dixie Chicks for their Album of the Year winning Taking the Long Way. Wilson also shared in the 2012 Grammy for Album of the year for his work as a producer of the hit "Someone Like You," one of the three songs he co-wrote with Adele for her album 21. In This Interview Dan and I Discuss...The One You Feed parable.Neither wolf wins permanently, the battle always goes on.How what we focus on grows.How a good plan and acting is better than waiting on a great plan.Nurturing our gifts to the world.How malleable our lives and character really are.The meaning between Love Without Fear.What stands out to him from the Trip Shakespeare time.How Trip Shakespeare wrote songs.The Trip Shakespeare re-release project.The art of reinterpretation.Dealing with comparison and envy.Life changing advice from Frank StellaDan Wilson LinksDan Wilson HomepageDan Wilson 6 Second SongwritingDan Wilson TumblrDan Wilson TwitterDan Wilson Facebook Some of our most popular interviews that you might also enjoy:Kino MacGregorStrand of OaksMike Scott of the WaterboysTodd Henry- author of Die EmptyRandy Scott HydeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You can feed that part of you that wants to be mad at the success of mediocrity and then you'll become a bitter sad person. Or you can cultivate a habit of loving great work. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that

hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf I'm Jason Alexander and I'm Peter Tilden and together our mission on the really no really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor? What's in the museum of failure? And does your dog truly love you?

We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really Podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest today is Dan Wilson, a Grammy award-winning singer,

songwriter, musician, producer, and visual artist. He's known as the leader of the band Semisonic, for which he wrote the Grammy-nominated Closing Time. Wilson has also released several solo recordings, including the 2014 release Love Without Fear.

He was also a member of the Minneapolis psychedelic rock band, Trip Shakespeare. Here's the interview. Hi, Dan. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you very much. As I was just saying to you a little bit before we got started, I'm very excited to have you on. I have been a fan of your music since I was probably 18 years old. And there is just something about your voice when you're singing that every time I hear it, it just immediately makes me feel better. So that's a great thing. And so thank you for that. That's fantastic. Really appreciate hearing that.

So our podcast is called The One You Feed, and it's based on the parable of two wolves where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson, and he says, in life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops, and he thinks about it for a second. He looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you how that parable applies to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, I think the first thing that strikes me about the parable is that the grandfather doesn't commit to a permanent victory of one wolf or the other.

And the way he talks about it, it's like both wolves are always available for the feeding. And I kind of like that about the parable. I definitely have a similar philosophy, although I guess wolves haven't entered into it. But I feel like whenever I have pictured something happening in the future, so often that thing has actually happened or something really close to that thing yeah i've been very lucky in my choice of things to picture i guess because it seems really very consistent that whatever we put our energy or our imagination into eventually becomes reality. So I guess that's how I see the wolf parable, is that it's the idea of which wolf winning is almost like which wolf gets to turn into, you know, gets to be real,

which wolf gets to turn into reality. Right. I like that. And you talk about sort of your thinking about what the wolf that wins is the one that gets your thoughts and your attention. And one of the things I like about you're a visual artist as well as a the pictures that you've drawn is this idea of just showing up and doing the work towards the things that you care about consistently. And I think that plays into that theme also. Yes. One thing that needs to be nurtured and fed is whatever your gift is. Whatever is the thing that you want to share with the world and whatever is the thing that you want to share with the world and and whatever is the the the gift that you want to give to the world you actually have to feed that you have to actually have to nurture it and feed it you can't it doesn't giving it giving it doesn't make it go

away and it's it's ignoring it is what makes it go away giving it makes it stronger and more powerful hoarding it and saving it and not doing something with it makes it with away. Giving it makes it stronger and more powerful. Hoarding it and saving it and not doing something with it makes it wither. There was something I saw of yours very recently, and I'm not going to get it right because I don't have it right in front of me, but you talked about having a good plan and doing something is better than waiting on a great plan. Yeah. Well, I've always been, you know, in songwriting, I always feel like it's hard to tell. I mean, maybe some people are really geniuses at this,

but it's hard for me to tell which idea is, you know, amazing and which one is really, really good. I can tell when they're bad. But even then, maybe I can't tell. But a lot of times i think i i have started out a song with what seemed to be a pretty good idea and then somewhere along the line at some point something happened some little turning point or some additional some other idea kind of sprang out and then the what seemed to be pretty good actually is incredible and great and a gift you know and

so i'm really i'm not a believer in assessing early whether an idea is you know of a high enough quality to continue i kind of feel like if i'm going to do some songwriting right now then i'm just going to try to figure out what's my favorite idea right now that I actually have and work on that or have a new idea and work on that. But I guess I just don't think you can wait for a good pitch to excess. I think sometimes you've got to swing at a few pretty good outside the strike zone pitches. Yeah, that's a good analogy. I think that applies really to anything in life. It's so easy for, you know, certainly

times for me in life to think that certain conditions need to line up in order for me to do this thing that I want to do or that thing versus just doing something always seems to lead to obviously better results. And things tend to emerge as, at least for me, things tend to emerge as soon as I get engaged in the process. Yeah, I completely agree. I just, you know, I think it's funny because I don't like to argue with my fellow songwriters about how to do it. So I almost feel like everybody's got their right to pick their times. I have a good friend who is a really, really talented musician, and he is very much of the philosophy that you wait until everything is perfect, and then you strike creatively. You wait until the day is right, and you wait until the idea is good enough,

and you wait until the mood strikes. And, you know, I get that. I understand why that's a good thing for him. I get that. I understand why that's a good thing for him. But I've gotten so many good results from just charging ahead with an idea that seemed good enough. And then later you find that there was something really, really magical in there. Are there any of your songs that you think that might apply to the parable at all? No, that's an interesting question. The one that I thought of was free life to some degree, because it's about making choices. At least that's what it means to me.

The vibe that I get from free life is that we are kind of works in progress, that we are always creating ourselves together and individually, and that there's a kind of works in progress that we are always creating ourselves together and individually and that there's a kind of beautiful but scary open-endedness about every moment in life and about even like identity who who one is at all there's a there's an open-endedness in that as well. I feel like that song is almost a reminder of how unformed or how fresh and formable, I guess, how malleable and fresh and workable our lives can be if we just think of them that way. And a feeling What you're gonna spend your free life on In the end the questions hang Will we get to do Do something

And a feeling Do something End up End up being End up Feeling What you're gonna spend The new album is called Love Without Fear And the title track is called Love Without Fear And I think I heard you say that

You had written that about a friend Yeah Can you maybe share more about that? I was probably partway through writing songs for the album. And I was in a mode, when I'm writing a lot of songs, I get into this mode where everything that happens turns into a song in my mind. And I had this uncomfortable conversation with a friend of mine on the phone. I think he and I were planning, or we were not exactly planning something, but we were sort of comparing notes about what we were going to do in the coming year. And it got really uncomfortable and really kind of negative, and I couldn't figure out why. And after we got off the phone, it went downhill and it got really bad. But at the end of the conversation, I felt like, wow,

we just had almost like a big fight, and I don't exactly know what it's about. And when I thought about it for a little while, I realized that my friend was worried that I was going to do a series of dumb things that were going to hurt him in specific ways. It took me a minute to figure out what those things were and how to convince him that those things weren't going to happen, that that wasn't part of my plan. But he was definitely afraid that I was going to kind of trample his agenda in some way. And once I realized that, it was a huge relief. Because for a while I was sort of mad at him for being sort of difficult

or mad at him for being afraid or sad or whatever it was. And once I realized that I had it within my power to reassure him, it was like his sort of weight was lifted. And I would like to say that I called him right away to talk to him about it, but actually I wrote a song first. Well, I'm glad you did. I love the melody on that. Thank you.

I want in this life of mine Someone to take my hand Walk with me side by side All I need in this world of tears Is someone to give me time And love without fear Give me time and love without fear. Give me time and love without fear. So, Trip Shakespeare was the, at least I wouldn't say it was your first band,

but it was the first band that you were probably known for, and I just love that known for. And I just love that old music. It's just, it's amazing. Is there any music from that time that really sticks with you today that you feel like you're particularly proud of? I mean, it's a great body of work, but I'm kind of curious what stands out for you. Of the Trip Shakespeare music, Of the Tripp Shakespeare music, I have been listening to it a bit more lately because John Munson from the band has been spearheading a re-release project of the albums. And so we've listened to a lot of the songs on the records and also a lot of B-sides and unreleased things.

And the stuff that really strikes me almost is the stuff, is the live bootleg recordings where the band jammed and improvised. Because I think that was one of our great superpowers. And that's one of the reasons people really loved the live shows and I think we never did figure out how to get that to happen on records I played a couple gigs and were well received but the tool master lost his

verve don't ask me why for some reason he lost his... yes thank you. You got something to tell me Dan? A letter came from the Buckeye Creamery It said Mr. Master of Bravery We're gonna start up the old machinery

Why? Why? Why? All his old girlfriends Lied up in the sky And told him to kiss The twin towns goodbye He rumbled north

For a change of scenery Goodbye Goodbye Toolmaster of greater Toolmaster of greater Toolmaster of greater So when I listen to the records, I sometimes feel like, okay, these are really good, like, you know, sort of rock songwriting songs. And yet I think that the thing that the band did best was often hidden and not part of the records. So I like listening to the live bootlegs.

Is any of that going to be part of the re-releases? I live bootlegs is any of that going to get be part of the re-releases i think it is i think there are going to be some um i mean i i it's interesting because i feel like i think maybe it's either going to be that that some live versions are going to make it onto the the re-releases or um or that we're going to just do a separate project entirely um involving live stuff which either one would be great. It would be great. You guys were so fun to watch live. We had just developed, um, over time, we developed a very intuitive way of relating to each other where we could,

we really knew where things were going, um, without having to acknowledge it on stage at all. We just kind of knew, oh, we're heading into this weird zone. And we would really all kind of flock from sound to sound or idea to idea. And it was very, you know, it's funny because I think Trip Shakespeare was just ahead of the jam band idea a circuit of touring

that was designed that got designed around the jam bands all happened just a bit after Trip Shakespeare so I think a lot of groups that admired us and watched our concerts like Phish you know I think a lot of you know groups that admired us and watched our concerts like Fish you know just they got started just a little bit later and they and and a kind of a scene and a

way of presenting that music kind of coalesced around them and we were just a little bit on the early end. Hey y'all I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. And I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were

told not to love. So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were, how we want to see ourselves and who we know ourselves to be and who we can be. So a little bit of past, present and future, all in one idea, soothing something from the past. And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It can be something that you love. All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the

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It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, the thing I loved about so much of that music was there was that free-flowing element to it, and yet the songwriting, at least in my perspective, was so, so good in comparison to a lot of what I would consider jam band songwriting. Just so... How did you guys write songs? Because you had, across the different songs, there were three of you that would take lead vocals, right?

Your brother, John. How did you guys write songs, and how did you decide who would sing what? Was there any sort of process to that? It was kind of, well, how did the songs get written? It was mostly Matt who would initiate them. My role in the songwriting was quite often just to finish something. Like, you know, a song would be three quarters done, but it needed a bridge,

and so I would write a bridge. Or Matt might have a completed lyric, but he just didn't have a melody for it, and he would give it to me, and I would write a melody for it. You know, for example, there was a song called Spirit that was on the second album, And Spirit was a poem that Matt gave me, and I wrote a piece of music to it. And I sang it for the band, and John said, can I sing that one? And I think John sort of would lay in wait for a really good song and say, hey, can I sing that one?

So I think he often sang some really good songs, partly because he was sort of patiently waiting for a really good one to come along. Well, I doubt he had to wait too long. You know, it's funny because I do feel like the songwriting, kind of the pure songwriting side of Trip Shakespeare The pure songwriting side of Trip Shakespeare was definitely very quirky, but very strong in its own way. of the head to the reel that revolves at the center and you wait for the yank of the hook

where the dogs of the bank are upon me now and they've come to repossess my car I'll be found at the base

of the canyon I'll be torn from the wreck of the border Let the crane let the crane and I feel I think it almost would have been great for the band When I arrive To the crack in the earth I think it almost would have been great for the band if we had just, if the rule was that you could do

different versions of the same song on different albums. Because our versions live of a particular song would be so wildly different from month to month. And it almost was like a new work of art. But there was this kind of like pop songwriting, an unwritten rule that you, you know, once you recorded a song on an album, you couldn't put it on another album. And it strikes me now, like thinking back, like, well,

it would have been kind of, would have been kind of awesome if we could have had a few songs that appeared again and again on records. And, you know, if that could have been sort of part of our playbook, it might have been interesting, because our transformations of the songs were really pretty cool. Yeah, I think it's a little bit like Dylan. You can hear, all that stuff got released later as part of that, but you can hear multiple versions of one song. It's just really interesting to hear them so drastically reinterpreted or arranged. I can't remember exactly when it was, but it was Elvis Costello in Minneapolis at the Northrop Auditorium. And he had a horn section.

It was him and the attractions and a horn section. And they did horn-heavy versions of all of Elvis Costello's's songs and completely different from the album versions of the songs, like so different. A fast song would be slow and a slow song would be fast and there's blasting horns on everything. And it was just, to me, it was very disorienting, but kind of amazing. It made me realize that the song itself is like a free-floating idea that doesn't necessarily have to be tied to one interpretation. And that was a really huge learning moment for me. Yeah. So after Trip Shakespeare, you went on and formed a band, Sememi-Sonic, that you had a big hit with Closing Time.

There was a song on your first record that I was a huge fan of and still am. I was going through a really bad breakup at the time, and it was Brand New Baby. And what is so great about that song is that it is such a such a sad subject but there is just the joy that comes out of the way it's produced and sung I just so many times that was such a great song to just make me feel better I'm on your own Alone to find yourself somehow So I'm a bit surprised to see you lately You're such a brand new baby But if it makes you happy now

I guess that's great I guess you're not mine Brand new baby beside you now Oh yeah I guess that's great You don't see me crying. And there's nobody to slow you down. Oh, yeah.

That's nice to hear. I like that a lot. You know, I mean, all of the songs that I write, if they're angry or bitter or sad or troubled, it's because I'm angry or bitter or sad or troubled at the time. So everything I write comes out of some real experience. But it's actually, for me, kind of comforting to turn it into something beautiful or something rousing. to turn it into something beautiful or something rousing.

I think Brand New Baby is a really rousing song, and it's really fun to play live. It's got a lot of chords. It's kind of hard to play live, but it's really fun to play live because it's almost like shaking off your troubles just by being really loud about them. Right, exactly. It's a great one. So after that, you've kind of gone on and released a couple solo records.

And the other thing that you've had a lot of success with is you have co-written some really big hits for Adele and the Dixie Chicks and have had a lot of success in that area. That's been an interesting and kind of unexpected joy for me. That's been an interesting and kind of unexpected joy for me. I always wanted to co-write songs and put them on other people's albums, or at least I knew that was a thing when I was a kid. And then in the late 90s, I really worked to try to make it happen. And I guess it took me maybe four or five years to figure out how to do it well. It seems like you certainly got the hang of it.

four or five years to figure out how to do it well. It seems like you've certainly got the hang of it. A question that I have for you is, one of the ways that my bad wolf tends to manifest itself is in comparison. And I wonder, is it ever challenging for you that some of the songs you've written, co-written, go on to get huge, and your own solo work is comparatively obscure in that. How do you, because obviously it's great that that's happening for you. Do you ever wrestle with that?

Yeah, I do. It's funny. There's a joke that a friend of mine told me years ago. A man gets two ties from his mother for his birthday, a red tie and a blue tie. And the next time he sees his mother for lunch, he wears the red tie. And they sit down to lunch and she looks down at his tie. And she looks back up at him and says, what's the matter? You didn't like the other tie? And to me, it's a very similar thing. If I write two songs and one of them becomes a hit, an unavoidable little knee-jerk reaction that I have is,

what's wrong with the other song? You didn't like that other song, everybody? What's wrong with you? I can't help it. I want them all to be sort of equally loved even though it doesn't in the case of the tie story like you can't wear two ties at once but in my case like you know I I so if I do a solo album and the and then write a song that's you know gets on the radio and someone else is singing it it's it's both of them are my work

but you know i i kind of want people to like everything that i do so i want them to hear my my solo records and my co-writes and my productions and everything else hey y'all i'm dr joy hardin bradford host of therapy for black girls and i'm thrilled to invite you to our january jumpstart series for the third year running all All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag, it doesn't cover a childhood scar. You know, when you buy a jacket, it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair

you were told not to love. So when I think about beauty, it's so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were, how we want to see ourselves, and who we know ourselves to be and who we can be. It's a little bit of past, present, and future all in one idea, soothing something from the past. And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It could be something that you love. All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Right. I think that's one of those sort of what wolf do you feed? It's easy to twist that into,

I mean, I know people who would certainly look at that and just feel grouchy about it. And the other interpretation about it is it's amazing the things that you're doing and that people are hearing them and to have those opportunities. And it's sort of what perspective do you want to take on it? Yeah. And there's kind of a, it's hard to explain exactly, but I was talking with a friend about a project that they were working on that is charitable. And this charitable project is a very specific thing that's only going to benefit a few specific people. It's best that it works that way. people, it's best that it works that way. But my friend feels a lot of pressure from the world to have whatever idea that they're working on be scalable. You need to be able to scale it up. You know, what's the matter? You can't help 100,000 people with this idea. You're only helping

four people with this idea. You know, you got to be able to scale it up to a million people or four million people or whatever. And, you know, I think got to be able to scale it up to a million people or four million people or whatever. And, you know, I think artists struggle with that a lot, especially pop artists where scaling your work up to massive numbers is a, you know, it's a longstanding hope that a lot of people have. You write a song, it's great to have it be very meaningful for a handful of people, but it's also awesome to have it be meaningful to, you know, millions of people. The thing is, like, for me, like, if I think about whom I am envious of in the world of music, it's really funny. It's a strange thing because I'm not very envious usually.

I'm actually pretty much on my own path. And I kind of understand that I have a weird and quirky kind of unique path in music. And I'm very lucky, you know, no one else gets to be me. But if I'm ever envious, the strange pattern is that I'm envious of people, musicians or creators of music, for their success only if I despise their music. I'm never envious of someone whose music I love and who is successful. Yep. I read a study recently or some research about that, that that seems to be exactly, cause I've been really interested in when does, cause it's, we all compare ourselves to others, right? It's just part of what happens and it would be nice

if it didn't happen, but it does. And, but there seem to be cases where that comparison is kind of benign or even can be motivating. And then there's other cases where it's not so much. And it's really interesting that the research seems to say that if you compare yourself to somebody who you, A, you like, or B, you see like you could become what they're being, or then it tends to be pretty benign. But if you compare yourself to people who don't seem anything like you or seem to have gotten some break that you never got or there's something about their circumstance that makes them able to do it,

then that tends to become more of a maladapted. And I just thought that was really interesting. That sort of fits exactly with what you're saying there. My theory about this whole question of envy and comparison for myself is that when I contemplate or think about or kind of dream about the successes of people whose music I love, my biggest kind of emotion is gratitude. Like, I'm so happy that I've gotten the chance to hear their music.

Right. And somehow that kind of neutralizes, you know, what you could imagine would be the possibility of feeling envy. And so that's why, strangely why strangely my own, my only little twinges of envy here and there are like, I sometimes envy people who I, who I think are, you know, create mediocre music and are very successful. Yeah, exactly. Like why I don't even want that life. I don't, I don't even want to be like that at all. i think i i it's almost like i i envy them in the way that a person might envy someone who wins the lottery by chance you know and and so exactly you know

but but it's uh you know one i think one of my lucky breaks in life is that that's a very small kind of component of my psyche and you know you know, years ago, I had this really interesting experience. I went to a question and answer by Frank Stella, who's a painter from New York that I admire a lot. And he gave a talk. And then afterwards, we were allowed to ask questions. And I said to him, and I was probably 21, I said to him, you know, I go to the museums and I look at the paintings and there's so many bad paintings. There's so much bad work and it's, you know, up in the walls of the museum and it's getting rewarded and it's succeeding. And yet I, Dan, know that it's bad. You know, what do you think about that, Mr. Stella?

And he said, worrying about bad art succeeding is not your job. It's of no concern. your job is to find the art that inspires you and that fires your imagination and your job is to is to study that art and figure out how they did it forget about the bad stuff your job is to look for great stuff that you love. And I was so struck by that. It seemed, it is very simple, like, oh, oh, I get to just ignore the things that I don't think are good and just pay super close attention to the things that I think are great. And that's really, that helped me so much over the years, that one bit of advice has been super helpful for me. Yeah, it's really about putting the focus on sort of the process

and the internal piece, internally versus the external reward of it. Or it's like this. You can feed that part of you that wants to be mad at the success of mediocrity and then you'll become a bitter sad person or you can cultivate a habit of loving great work and feeling grateful for it and being excited about it and sharing it with your friends and and thinking i want to do something that's great and then that's the part of you that'll grow and that becomes your character over time. And I really feel like Frank Stella was at the right place

at the right time in my life to say that thing that was so helpful. That's great. Well, I think that brings us to a pretty good point to wrap up. Cool. Dan, thanks so much for being on the show. I really enjoyed talking with you. And it's, like I said, your music has meant so much to me. So speaking of appreciating great art, thank you.

Cool, man. Yeah, thanks for having this conversation with me. I hope that what I said makes sense. I think it was great. All right, take care. Cool, man. Bye. Bye. You can learn more about Dan Wilson

and this podcast at oneufeed.net slash Wilson.