The One You Feed - David Richo on Navigating the Five Givens in Life

Episode Date: November 5, 2019

David Richo, PhD is a psychotherapist, teacher, workshop leader and writer who works in Santa Barbara and San Francisco, CA. He combines Jungian, poetic and mythic perspectives in his work with the intention of integrating the psychological and the spiritual. His books and workshops include attention to Buddhist and Christian spiritual practices. He is the author of the classic book, How To Be An Adult: A Handbook on Psychological and Spiritual Integration and his latest book, 5 True Things: A Little Guide to Embracing Life’s Big Challenges, is the focus of the conversation in this episode. If you’ve experienced difficulty in life – and who hasn’t? -then this episode on navigating the 5 givens in life is for you.Need help with completing your goals in 2019? The One You Feed Transformation Program can help you accomplish your goals this year.But wait – there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you!In This Interview, David Richo and I Discuss Navigating the Five Givens in Life and…His latest book 5 True Things: A Little Guide to Embracing Life’s Big ChallengesThat perfection is not a human optionHow a “given” can be looked at as an immutable fact or something that we’ve been grantedNavigating the 5 givens in life that are the ingredients of a life with meaning, character, depth, and compassionLife is not always fair and that pain is part of everyone’s lifeThe importance of saying yes to these givens as it brings more equanimity and serenity into our lifeAccepting the things we cannot change, while trusting that if life is like this, these “givens” aren’t penalties – rather, they have gift dimensionsHow we create our own suffering through our saying “no” to what isHis words, “Anything that crosses swords with our entitled ego is a powerful source of transformation and inner evolution.”The ego tries to control the givensThat love is accepting someone as they are, knowing that everyone comes with these 5 givensHow the opposite of yes is not no, but rather it is controlBuilding the inner resources that make me strong enough to handle whatever givens come my way as well as the importance of becoming skilled at griefHis words, “A spiritually evolved adult seeks not an answer, but a significance.”Live with the questions and notice where they take usAct with loving-kindness in addition to holding difficulty with mindfulnessSpirituality is the intersection of 3 paths: letting go of ego, “yes” to the conditions of human experience, and compassionHappiness is not a reward and suffering is not a punishmentDavid Richo Links:davericho.comThe Great Courses Plus: Are you a life long learner? A perpetually curious person? The Great Courses Plus is an on-demand streaming service that offers courses taught by professors on a whole host of topics such as Human Behavior, Money Management Skills, Black Holes, the History of England and so much more. Eric is currently enrolled in their course called, The Hidden Factor: Why Thinking Differently is Your Greatest Asset. Listeners of the show get a full month of unlimited access to their library for FREE by signing up at www.thegreatcoursesplus.com/wolfCalm: The #1 rated app for meditation. They have meditations, sleep stories, soothing music, and calm masterclasses with may One You Feed Guests. www.calm.com/wolf 25% off a Calm Premium SubscriptionTalkspace:  the online therapy company that lets you connect with a licensed therapist from anywhere at any time. Therapy on demand. Non-judgemental, practical help when you need it at a fraction of the cost of traditional therapy. Visit www.talkspace.com and enter Promo Code: WOLF to get $100 off your first month.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Everything that happens has a meaning when meaning includes the opportunity for evolving. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious,

consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Our guest today is David Rico, PhD. He's a psychotherapist, teacher, workshop leader,

and a writer who works in Santa Barbara and San Francisco, California. He combines Jungian, poetic, and mythic perspectives in his work with the intention of integrating the psychological and the spiritual. His books and workshops include attention to Buddhist and Christian spiritual practices. He is the author of the classic How to Be an Adult, a handbook on psychological and spiritual integration, and his latest book is called Five True Things, a little guide to embracing life's big challenges. And here is our conversation with David.

Hi, Dave. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Eric. Nice to be here. It's a pleasure to have you on. Your book is called Five True Things, A Little Guide to Embracing Life's Big Challenges. And we will talk more about that in a moment, but we'll start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops. She thinks about it for a second, and she looks up at her grandfather. She says, well, grandfather, which one wins?

And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, first of all, I relate to it very well. And I do understand what you mean. And when he says, it depends on which one you feed, there I have a question, because I believe that all through life, we, from time to time, feed either one. And that we walk through life with the good wolf on one side and the bad wolf on the other. And it's never just entirely a life of one or the other. Since we all have a shadow side, since we all have a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde orientation, then I'm presuming and noticing that we feed both of them at one time or another. And I would also say this, at the end of his life, Hitler's good

wolf was still alive. And at the end of her life, Mother Teresa's bad wolf was still alive and at the end of her life mother Teresa's bad wolf was still alive yeah I know that sounds like an unusual comment but it goes with the union sense of all of us having a saintly side and a shall we say, demonic side. And we would never want to imagine that either one of them had totally disappeared. Right, and I think that's why I love the parable because it sort of makes it sound like, hey, we all have this battle

and it's kind of a close match, right? It's, you know, like the one you feed is the one that wins, but maybe only by a little bit, right? And I think it normalizes what you said, that we have both these things inside of us. We're never freed of them, like you said. And I think perfection is not a real human option. We might strive for it, but it's not a real human option.

I certainly agree. It's not one of the givens of life. Yeah. So let's talk about the givens. You say there's five true things. You also refer to them as the five unavoidable givens. And let's get into what those are in a minute. But first, let's talk about what do you mean by a given? What does that mean to you? How are you using that term? A given is an unalterable fact of life that all of us have to pay attention to and accept. For instance, one of the givens is that at some point we will die. That's just a fact about human existence that all of us have to accept. Now, we have some leeway as to how long we might live, depending on our health habits and our genetic makeup and any unforeseen accidents that may come along. But the given is death, and the variable is how and when it happens. Right, right.

The other thing that you say about given is you say, first, yes, it's a condition that cannot be changed, but you say it's also something that has been granted to us. So you're using the term given in both an immutable fact as well as something that could be looked at as something we've been given. I also see the givens of life, and I'm referring to five specific ones in this book, but I just think that somehow there are also graces that have come our way. Kind of a gift dimension of life, since these givens, which we'll soon describe, turn out to be the ingredients of a life that has meaning, character, depth, compassion.

Right. So let's talk about what they are, the five givens. Okay. First of all, there are thousands of givens, but the five that I'm working with in the book are one, everything changes and ends. Two, things do not always go according to our plans. Three, life is not always fair. Four, pain is part of everyone's life. And five, people are not loyal and loving all the time. So when I quarrel with those, I'm beating my head against the wall because they are the givens of our life on this planet. So if I could say yes to these, I would be doing a lot to bring more equanimity and serenity into my life. The serenity to accept the things I cannot change is basically what this is about. That's the topic of my book. So many self-help books are on the second part of the prayer,

which is the courage to change the things that I can change. Self-help books are about changing, but this book is not about changing. It's about accepting what can't be changed while trusting that if it's like this here, here on Earth, and if this whole Earth is oriented toward more and more evolution toward higher consciousness, then it must be that givens like these are not penalties. They are not horrible fates that have been thrust upon us. They somehow have a gift dimension because each one of them helps us be stronger and more realistic. helps us be stronger and more realistic. Right. You say that we behave as if somehow these givens aren't always in effect or not applicable to all of us. But when we oppose these five basic truths, we resist reality,

and life then becomes an endless series of disappointments, frustrations, and sorrows. Yes, that's how I see it. Yeah, that's a really great way to look at it. And I think it is so true. I've often said, I think the serenity prayer is the wisest thing ever written, right? And that the trick for most of us is the last part of it, the wisdom to actually know. For some things, it's very obvious. I can't change the weather. I can't change my clothes. And then you get into these really complicated areas. And your book here sort of wades a little bit into how you can sort of see more nuance in different areas of your life by accepting that these sort of things are true. And it just makes me think about, makes me think about like, I had to put a

couple of dogs to sleep a couple of years ago within about eight months of each other. And I just remember by the fact that I was really clear that like, this is just what happens. I didn't have a quarrel with the universe over it. Right. All I had was the sadness and that was plenty. That was plenty. Right. But I think it's, you know, we talk on this show often, and your book goes over it a lot too, about how we take these things that happen in life that might cause us sorrow or sadness or whatever, and then we add all this stuff to it. And that quarreling with life is part of what we add to it that makes our suffering grow. suffering grow I really agree with that and that's a very good way to put it in other words we create our own suffering by our know to what is right when we're insisting that everything go the way we want it to go we're setting ourselves up for the terrible pain of disappointment. And it's certainly okay to wish that things were different. I'm thinking of the stanza from a famous poem, the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam. And I think this is in book, but anyway, it goes like this.

Omar Khayyam, and I think this is in book, but anyway, it goes like this. Ah, love, if you and I could but conspire to change this sorry scheme of things entire, would we not shatter it to bits and mold it nearer to the heart's desire? So if I had my chance, I would change these givens. I would say things can remain the same for as long as I want them to, rather than everything changes and ends beyond my control. And it's okay to have that wish to like while away a quiet afternoon, but to live as if that were possible or to demand it But to live as if that were possible or to demand it gets us into big trouble. Yeah. Because we're not sitting in the saddle in the direction the horse is going.

I love that phrase of yours. You say, saying yes to reality, to the things we cannot change, is like choosing to turn around and sit in the saddle in the direction the horse is going. And I think that is such a great phrase that really sums this up. And as you were reading that poem there, it made me think of something somebody, a friend of mine just sent me, it was right before the show, an email that said that they'd heard of in the Baha'i faith that one of the definitions of God is the one who churns things up. And I thought that was so great because it sort of speaks to this. And what it speaks to is the next line of yours that I want to read here. You say that, I found that anything that crosses swords with our entitled ego is a powerful source of transformation and inner evolution. Yeah, because the ego is the part of us. Ego is the Latin word for I. Ego is the part of us that's,

part of us. Ego is the Latin word for I. Ego is the part of us that's, shall we say, I-centered. And we live in a world that's a continually evolving web of life. It's not every man for himself. It's we're all in this together and we're linked. And in Buddhism, there's the realization that there is no separate self, that all of us are connected. And when the ego steps in, it tries to control the givens. In fact, I would say the opposite of yes, in our context here, is not no, the opposite of yes is I can control this. not no, the opposite of yes is I can control this. For instance, let's say we're looking at the given that people are not loving or loyal all the time, but yet in our relationship with someone special, we demand that he or she be loving and loyal all the time, since that's what we believe we're entitled to. And that entitlement is one of the characteristics of this inflated ego that we've been talking about. So when you demand that from someone, first of all, you're demanding something that's not humanly possible. Secondly, it's contrary to the given that all of us are loving at times,

but at moments we might be unloving and we're all loyal. And we're in some ways, we're loyal all the time, but in other ways, we're not as loyal as someone would like us to be. So if I can be okay with the ever moving pageant of human behavior, I'm going to have a much happier relationship and one that doesn't put so many unrealistic demands on my partner. So this is how accepting these givens to love more, because love is accepting someone just as he or she is.

And everyone comes in with these same five givens. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you, and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's gonna drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, Really.

No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Everyone occasionally makes plans with us that could fall through because she's often late or he sometimes forgets. But when you start off with, well, anything can happen here because the human element is always at work, you're going to have a much happier time. Yep. I think that, you know, particularly that people will not always be loving all the time

is such a big one. Like my girlfriend to tell you right now, I was not as loving as I could have been last night. You know, I got kind of grumpy about things. I mean, I didn't, I wasn't mean or anything. I just was kind of like, or in my own kind of space and learning that about other people is really helpful because I know when I was younger, you know, I would read every little sign like that is, is it had some meaning, right? And it doesn't in most cases, right? It doesn't. It's the way people oscillate, you know, and knowing that is a real freedom. And I love that line. The opposite of yes is not no, it is control. And you go on to say, I think this is really important too, we do not let go of

control. We let go of the belief that we have control. Yeah. You want to remain in control of the car, but you have to let go of the belief that you're in control of everything. Right. That reminds me of something you say that all the givens of life are based on one underlying fact. Anything can happen to anyone. This is the given of givens. And that is a sort of terrifying possibility at first glance. Mark, Mark Nepo, who we had on the podcast calls it the terrible knowledge, you know, the terrible knowledge that like you said, anything can happen to any of us anytime we are completely out of control in that regard, as far as these forces outside of us. Absolutely. And so, you know, someone who smokes and says, well,

maybe smoking does cause cancer, but that won't happen to me. That's the opposite of anything can happen to anybody. Right. And secondly, the purpose then that we would be aiming at if we're coming from a healthy place is not to get off scot-free, to live a charmed life, to make sure most of the bad things that happen to some people don't ever happen to us. It would be more about how do I keep building the inner resources that make me strong enough to handle whatever givens come my way. Right. And I think that that is the heart of it, right? Is I remember thinking this, you know, I was in 12 step recovery for a long time and trying to thinking this, you know, I was in 12-step recovery for a long time and trying to sort of, you know, when I started, I had this really immature idea of what God and spirituality was. And it was basically like, if I do really good, no bad things will happen to me

until some really bad things happen to me. And I went, well, okay, that is a pretty immature way of viewing the world. And where I landed was that it wasn't that bad things wouldn't happen to me. It was that I had a faith that by applying certain spiritual principles, certain approaches, that I would be able to handle whatever life gave me. And that's a very different thing, but is also an enormously comforting thing when we get to that point, because then we are less afraid of everything. Yes. And I think one of the, I like what you just said, Eric, and I totally agree, of course. And I think another element to this that has really helped me to get to what you just described is to become really skilled at grief. Yeah. Because every one of these five has grief in it.

If things are going to end, then we're going to cry. If things don't go according to plan, we're going to be sad. If life is not fair, we're going to be sad. If life is not fair, we're going to be grieving that. If pain is part of life, that's going to hurt and bother us. And certainly if people are not loving and loyal all the time, we're going to be grieving because we had expected otherwise. So every one of these has grief in it. And since grief is the feeling that most of us avoid like the plague, then it's understandable that it would be hard for us to say yes unconditionally to the way life is. So the part of it that's beyond our control, which is, of course, the biggest part of the pie. So I keep reminding myself that the more I can be comfortable with the feelings

of grief, which are sadness, anger, fear, I'm sad that I didn't get my way. I'm angry I didn't get my way. I'm afraid that my not getting my way is going to hurt me in some fashion. I can keep practicing letting myself have those feelings. And there's a direct connection between being okay with grief and being able to say yes and let go of trying to control things. Yeah. Because also it's true that one of the main reasons we do try to control things is because if they don't go our way, we will be sad that they didn't go our way. we will be sad that they didn't go our way. So if you really look carefully, you realize that even control itself, it's not only based on the fear of not getting what we want, it's based on the grief that not getting what we want, we will be sad. That's the lowest common denominator of it. Right. And control is, you know, I sort of think that at the heart of

so much of this stuff is exactly what you said. It's the ability to be with the emotions that life brings and not let them be a catastrophe, right? You know, a lot of us, we will go to great lengths to avoid that. And we have very extreme measures of doing it, whether it be alcohol or drugs or gambling. We have slightly less extreme, whether it be eating or watching a lot of TV. And then we get more and more subtle, you know, and that's where we start to get into control. And we start to get into some of the spiritual stuff like, well, you know, I just observe, we get more and more sophisticated as we just observe we get more and more sophisticated as we grow and we learn more and more sophisticated with ways that we can avoid having to deal with

the feelings. And I think what you said is so important. And this is a work in progress for me. I'm sure it is for everyone. But the more that I'm able to be like, all right, I can feel sad. I can sit here and cry and I can be okay with it. I don't like it. I'm not going to seek it out, but I can do it. And also realizing that feelings have a life cycle. They come, they peak, they crest, they go like the first given, right? Everything ends, you know? And so sometimes it's when we realize that, that makes such a big change. And it was the fundamental thing that I realized that allowed me to stop doing heroin, right? Was that I went, I can have these really awful feelings. I can sit here, they'll come and they'll pass and I will survive. And it sure is better not to do something really destructive when I'm in the midst of them. Right. And, you know, and so I couldn't agree with you

more. I think that that's so important. It makes me think of another guest we had whose name is David K. Reynolds, and he wrote a book called Constructive Living. And in it, he had a line that really kind of floored me. And he said, when we're able wasn't going to cause me to run off and go on some epic binge, the behavior, I knew I could sort of handle my behavior. I was free to allow emotion to run, have more space in my life. Well, that's a beautiful way to put it. I'm impressed with what you're saying. So I want to ask you a question in a slightly different direction, although it'll circle back to the very same place. And that's that you're known for writing books, you know, the first one called How to Be an Adult, How to Be an Adult in Relationships.

Being an adult is in the framework that runs through even this book. You reference it often. What do you mean by being an adult and why is it good to be one? I would say being an adult, first of all, would be adhering to that prayer that we mentioned before, the one used in the 12-step programs. It's written by Reinhold Niebuhr in 1943, a Lutheran theologian, that we would have the serenity to accept the givens of life, the things we can't change, and appreciate them as graces that are helping us become people of character, depth, and compassion, that we would work on being strong enough to confront the issues in our life that require some kind of change, like changing

behaviors in our personality that are ineffective in our relationships. And we can learn to do that and we can keep practicing it. And gradually we will make changes. So some things can be changed and we're always wanting to work on those. And that's not only applicable to ourselves, but to the society around us. We also want to do what we can to make this a better world. And then finally, the wisdom to know the difference, which is entirely a grace, comes to us from power beyond our own ego. We can't really make it happen, but we can always ask for it. May I have the wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and what I can't change. Yep. So to me, it arises what being an adult is about. And then I try to apply it to our personal life and to our relationships. Yep, that's great. There is something, you talk about being an adult often, and when I read it, I'm like, that's the way I kind of want to be. It's the opposite of the kind of magical thinking that everything will come out the way I want it.

Right, right. Yep. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you

and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500,

a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You also say that, I want to ask you to elaborate on this, you say a spiritually evolved adult seeks not an answer, but a significance. What do you mean by that? that instead of looking for solutions and answers to everything that bothers us, we would live with the questions and notice where they take us,

that we would look for a meaning, which is one of our essential longings. My other book is called The Five Longings, and one of these longings is meaning. So we're looking for what does this signify in my life in the sense that this offers me an opportunity to grow, both psychologically and spiritually. Or another way of putting it is, everything that happens has a meaning when meaning includes the opportunity for evolving. It's not like the new age approach that, you know, everything, quote, everything happens for a reason. It's not about the magical thinking that somehow the world is designing itself so that I can have exactly what I want. It's that the world is shaping up the way it is shaping up. And all that matters is in every shape it takes, there's some chance that I could step up to the plate as a full on adult who will say yes to the part of it that can't be changed.

And yes to the part of it that can be changed. And somehow from all that, I will gradually become more and more adult. You said so many great things in there and the way that you defined meaning, right? In that, if we define meaning as we are able to find an opportunity for growth in this, I almost wanted to applaud because that is so critical. And I also agree with you, this idea when I hear like everything happens for a reason, I just cringe a little bit. Because like you said, it always seems strange to me that the universe would be out there going, all right, well, you know what?

I'm going to cause Bob to get in a car accident so that Sally has an opportunity to grow. I'm like, hang on a second. Talk about taking the ego to its furthest extent, that the world is... It's another wish for control. Along with statements like, I chose my own parents. There we're saying we even had control before we were conceived. Oh, wow. That's really interesting.

I never thought of it in that light. All these new age superstitions, bedrock reality is the alternative. Yeah. How is what's happening now offering me yet another chance to act with loving kindness and hold this with mindfulness? this and hold this with mindfulness. Those are the examples of our spiritual practices that get a chance, shall we say, to be expressed through the events that are occurring. Yep. I couldn't agree more. I think that is such an important point. It made me think of something else that you wrote that I kind of wanted to talk about because I think we can sort of head into this. And the word spiritual is used all the time.

We use it. We offered a program called Spiritual Habits, right? It's used everywhere, right? However, what it means is, you know, always kind of up for debate. You have a definition of it that I love. And you say that spirituality is the intersection of three paths, letting go of ego, an unconditional yes to the conditions of human experience, and an immeasurable compassion. That's just, again, I could applaud that. That is so good.

Oh, thank you. It took me many years to come up with that. good oh thank you took me many years to come up with that well i can see why because it really does i mean it just sums up to me like what we're after when we're talking about spirituality and all three of those are challenges you know it's not the comforting candles and incense and holy pictures. It's, hey, can I let go of my ego in this conflict I'm having at work or at home? That's what shows me that spirituality has come alive in me. Can I say yes to the givens of life rather than fight them tooth and nail and believe I'm entitled to an exemption? Can I feel compassion for those who suffer as I do or different from the way I do? Can I feel compassion for the perpetrator and the victim? When I get to that point, that's the flourishing of spirituality. Can I have the kind point, that's the flourishing of spirituality.

And I have the kind of compassion that's not selective. It's not based on who seduced me into having pity for him or her. It's just for all suffering across the board. Those who endure it and those who cause it equally become the subjects of my compassionate heart. Right. It reminds me of the Zen vow, all beings, one body, I vow to save them. Yeah. It doesn't really leave anything out. So the other thing I thought of that after we were talking about people wanting to control things by magical thinking, and that's an insight I'm going to be pondering tonight for a while because I never saw it in that light as control, made me think of a phrase, things don't happen for the best, but thinking is they will turn out for the best. And what you're saying is they'll turn out the way they turn out. And then it will be up to me

to make the best of the way they turn out. Exactly. And I will have that chance. Yes. Yes. And I think that is it. Things don't happen for the best. That's a beautiful way of putting it. I really like that. vein you had a line i really like which is the challenge is to find our destiny in exactly what we are refusing to engage in and i think that's a really that's a really great way to sum up a lot of what we've talked about which is that by saying no or trying to control we are trying not to engage in something yes but that when we do you said we find our destiny by engaging with these things that are hardest for us to say yes to. I often find that, right? I've gotten really good at saying yes to a lot of things, but there are still some that are my trigger when they happen. I'm like, you know, I can just feel myself inside. No, no, no, no. Like a child. Yeah. We still haven't gotten it that reality is ruthless. Yes, it is.

It is. I like that phrase you used a few minutes ago, bedrock reality. Yeah. That life is not going to let us get away with anything. And the reason it's doing this is not because it's a harsh taskmaster or because we deserve punishment. And by the way, I'll only come back to that in a moment. It's because that's the way it is. And when I say yes to the way it is, I notice myself expanding, growing, evolving.

Yes. growing, evolving. And I wanted to throw in that regarding this idea of suffering that another way of being realistic is getting it that happiness is not a reward and suffering is not a punishment. So we no longer think I must have done something wrong and that's why I have this illness or that's why these terrible things are happening to me. It isn't set up that way. It isn't as if there's someone who's making sure that you get yours. Right. In either direction, negatively or positively. It's the way it is.

It's the way the chips have fallen. And how do I make the best of the way they fell? To echo what you just said. I think that's an enormously adult, that is mature, realistic way of looking at the things that happen to us. I couldn't agree more. And I was going to circle back to that because in the book, you use it in the context of the first noble truth of Buddhism, which is often translated as life is suffering or life is unsatisfactory. And that's when you use that line where you say another way of stating this truth or given is that pain is not a punishment and happiness is not a reward. They are simply features of any existence truth or given is that pain is not a punishment and happiness is not a reward. They are simply features of any existence. And that is so true. And I love that. It's a great way to think about that first noble truth. Yes, I agree. All this makes me think of,

you know, Buddhism talks about the three marks of existence, right? You know, things are impermanent. There's actually no self. And there's unsatisfactoriness built into life. And we had a teacher on, Ruth King, and she has this phrase that I've used over and over. I've talked to my coaching clients, everything, which is that life isn't permanent, personal, or perfect. And that really covers so much of what we're talking about here. And it's just a very good catchphrase that I can sort of, when I'm suffering, I can ask myself, am I expecting something to be permanent? Am I taking this personally? Am I expecting that things are

going to be perfect? And if I am, then I'm arguing against the three marks of existence or the givens of life. There's lots of different ways to say what you're saying, or I'm arguing against things that can't be changed. The stubborn facts. Yeah, that's another good one. The stubborn, they are very stubborn facts. Yes. As in immovable. And since everything is geared toward evolving, it has to be that such givens as we face must also have an evolutionary impulse in them that is moving us along in the direction of more consciousness and more connection, the two purposes of evolution. So that's another reason to trust. Our yes is based on a trust that if it's

like this, it must be right. Not right morally, but right on or fitting, appropriate. When I align myself to these givens, the five that I mentioned in the book, or any of the thousands that we encounter in the course of our life, when I do that, I'm joining in with the forces that help me evolve. And that's a wonderful reward. It is. That comes with our reward. It is. That comes with our yes. It is. And I think that is a beautiful place to wrap up because you and I are out of time and I don't think we could end it any better than that.

Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. I've really enjoyed the conversation and it's been a pleasure. Thanks a lot, Eric. And good luck in your work. You're doing really important stuff. Thank you. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast.

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