The One You Feed - Dr. Ellen Hendriksen on Social Anxiety

Episode Date: April 30, 2019

Dr. Ellen Hendriksen is a clinical psychologist who helps millions calm their anxiety and be their authentic selves through her award-winning podcast, The Savvy Psychologist, and in the clinic at Boston University’s Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders. In this episode, she and Eric discuss her debut book is, How to Be Yourself: Quiet Your Inner Critic and Rise Above Social Anxiety. If you suffer from social anxiety, you will learn a lot of practical tools to use to help you overcome it and suffer less.Need help with completing your goals in 2019? The One You Feed Transformation Program can help you accomplish your goals this year.But wait – there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you!In This Interview, Dr. Ellen Hendriksen and I Discuss…Her book, How to Be Yourself: Quiet Your Inner Critic and Rise Above Social AnxietyThe positive qualities that often accompany social anxiety in a personThat the opposite of social anxiety is actually psychopathyThe neuroscience of social anxietyHow if you face your fears you can change your brainThe problematic nature of avoidance when it comes to social anxiety Overt avoidanceCovert avoidanceThinking that the worst case scenario is a foregone conclusionAvoidance means we never see what actually happensThe inner criticThe buckets that the Inner Critic likes to attack: Appearance, the Signs of Anxiety Themselves, Social Skills, One’s Entire PersonalitySocial Anxiety Mad Libs: When I ______, it will become obvious that I _______The tool, ReplaceAnxiety is vague – ask, what particular thing are you afraid of?4 Magic Questions: What’s the worst that can happen? How bad is that? What are the odds that the worst case scenario will actually happen? How will I cope?/What will I do?The tool, EmbraceThe role of mindfulness in anxietyMaking your inner world a kinder, more hospitable environmentSelf-compassionCreating structure in our social situations – giving yourself a mission to fulfill, a purpose, a goalDr. Ellen Hendrisken Links:ellenhendriksen.comtwitterNetsuite by Oracle – the business software that handles every aspect of your business in an easy to use cloud platform. Get Netsuite’s free guide, 7 Key Strategies to Grow Your Profits, by going to www.netsuite.com/wolfPhlur makes stunning, non-toxic perfumes, listing every ingredient and why it’s there www.phlur.com. Enter promo code WOLF to get 20% off your first custom sampler set.The Upper Room – a global ministry where you can join a worldwide community of Christian believers in daily prayer and devotional practice. Go to www.upperroom.org/welcome to get a free 30-day trialIf you liked this episode, you might also enjoy these other episodes:Johann HariMatthew QuickEric MaiselSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What happens when we try to push that beach ball of anxiety underwater is that it's going to pop up later and probably with more force than before. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander and I'm Peter Tilden and together our mission on the really no really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500,

a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dr. Ellen Hendrickson, a clinical psychologist who helps millions calm their anxiety and be their authentic selves through her award-winning podcast, The Savvy Psychologist, and in the clinic at Boston University's

Center for Anxiety and Related Disorders. Her debut book is How to Be Yourself, Quiet Your Inner Critic, and Rise Above Social Anxiety and Related Disorders. Her debut book is How to Be Yourself, Quiet Your Inner Critic, and Rise Above Social Anxiety. Hi, Ellen. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Eric. I'm really excited to talk with you. Your book is called How to Be Yourself, Quiet Your Inner Critic, and Rise Above Social Anxiety. And I know this is something that a lot of our listeners deal with and are going to be really happy to hear about. So we'll get into the book in a second, but let's start

like we always do with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter, and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops, and she thinks about it for a second, and she looks up at her grandfather, and she says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Absolutely. So since we are here to talk about social anxiety and how to rise above it, overcome it, we might assume that social anxiety is the bad wolf.

And it's certainly not like greed or hatred. It's definitely not in that camp. But you know, it holds a lot of people back. It keeps a lot of people from living if they want to live. But I will argue that actually, it's not all bad for two reasons. So one is that social anxiety often comes bundled with some really wonderful strengths. So I'm going to start out on a positive note here for all our listeners with social anxiety because folks with social anxiety often have things like high standards, deep empathy. They are pro-social, which simply means helpful and altruistic. They're often good listeners, often very conscientious,

you know, work hard to get along with people, which is ever more important in this increasingly diverse world. And the best part is that all those wonderful things don't go away, even as we work on our social anxiety and it lessens. So that's one thing. But secondly, a little bit of social anxiety actually serves a really useful function. Like a little bit of insecurity is part of the human condition and I would argue is necessary because a little bit of self-doubt, a little bit of social anxiety helps us monitor ourselves and monitor our behavior and is really, I think, necessary to spark introspection, which makes us want to grow and stretch and change. And I always like to say we doubt ourselves in order to check ourselves. And there's some really fascinating research out there that the opposite of social

anxiety is not confidence, as we think it might be, but it's actually psychopathy. It's being a psychopath, which is characterized by a disregard for others, being really ruthless, reckless, irresponsible, having a real lack of empathy. So I would say to our listeners with social anxiety, it's certainly fine to put the social anxiety wolf on a diet, and we can talk about how to do that, but don't starve it completely because a little bit of it is necessary and keeps you human. Wonderful. That's a great perspective to start things off with. So let's talk for a minute about what is happening in the brains of people who have social anxiety versus the people that aren't.

There's some really clear things that we're able to see and notice about people who have social anxiety versus the people that aren't. There's some really clear things that we're able to see and notice about people who have social anxiety. Yeah, no, I'm going to jump right into the neuroscience. Okay. So yeah. So it's interesting. So the architecture of the brains of people with social anxiety versus people without social anxieties, all the same. All the same parts are there. But my analogy is that when there's a perceived social threat, whether or not that's actually a social threat, when there's a threat, the brains of folks without social anxiety will send a fire truck to the scene right away. And with the folks with social anxiety, our brain sends a guy on a bicycle with a bucket of water. It's a slower response. And it's, it's just, it's not, it's not as robust a response. And so there is all this

room left over to, to jump to the worst case scenario or to, uh, to, to kind of freak out because our friend has not texted our us back. And we assume it's because they hate us. And so for somebody without social anxiety, their brain will kick in and say, well, you know, she's probably just busy. Maybe she's in the bathroom. Maybe her phone died. Whereas with the folks with social anxiety, that, that prefrontal cortex response, that response of the part of our brain that is reasonable and logical doesn't kick in right away. There's about a three-second lag. And in those three seconds, a lot of freaking out can happen. And so the good news is that there are things that can change this speed and intensity of response. And cognitive behavioral therapy is one of those. We can talk about that.

But my point is that as you practice and as you grow and stretch and try to change and really face your fears a little at a time, you can change your brain and make it look much more like the folks without social anxiety. And would it be safe to say that this brain pattern is common across all types of anxiety? That's a great question. I don't know if that is the case. So basically what happens in anxiety is, yes, the amygdala sounds the alarm. Now, so the amygdala is, is part of the fear system. It's not the fear center per se, but it's part of the fear system. Um, it's also a member of many other systems. It's a kind of a jack of all trades, but it is particularly, uh, prominent in anxiety. And then the prefrontal

cortex will, will talk it down. It'll talk it off the ledge. So like I said, in social anxiety, that response takes longer and the response is less robust. I honestly don't know if that is the case in other forms of anxiety, like say OCD or generalized anxiety or phobias. I don't know if science knows that. Personally, I am not sure. And so one of the things that you say is the biggest challenge with social anxiety, and frankly, this is kind of with a lot of types of anxiety, is avoidance. So talk to me about what avoidance is and why is it so harmful? Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. harmful. Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up. Avoidance absolutely drives social anxiety. This is the big, if we are feeding a wolf, avoidance is its favorite food. And so there are two types

of avoidance in social anxiety. One is overt avoidance, and that's when we don't show up to the party or we don't raise our hand in class. It's refusing to do the thing. Now, there's also covert avoidance, which is showing up to the party, but perhaps only talking to the person we came with or scrolling through our phone so we don't have to make eye contact with anyone or spending most of our time petting the host's cat.

We might raise our hand in class, but then second guess ourselves. Or we might rehearse the answer that we're going to give before we actually say it. And then after we say it, kind of check it mentally to make sure we didn't sound stupid. So there's a lot of tricks that our brains play to try to artificially tamp down the anxiety. But what happens when we avoid, when we try to push that beach ball of anxiety underwater, is that it's going to pop up later and probably with more

force than before. You said that avoidance means well, but by protecting us from a situation, it inadvertently sends the message that we just can't cope with it. and it inadvertently sends the message that we just can't cope with it. Exactly. So avoidance feeds anxiety and it feeds the two lies of anxiety, which are one, that the worst case scenario is a foregone conclusion that if I raise my hand and answer this question in class, that I will inevitably get it wrong and everyone will look at me and maybe the professor will laugh or something terribly humiliating will occur. And so by avoiding, we don't get the chance to learn through experience that that doesn't happen. Secondly, we don't get a chance to learn that

we can cope with things, that we can handle either more than we think, or we can handle what, you know, what naturally occurs when we answer that question in class, or when we go to the party, or whatever it is that we're avoiding. That with, you know, with some time and practice, like we might be uncomfortable at first, but as we try, you know, as we kind of inch our way into the pool, you know, we don't have to do a cannonball into the deep end, but as we inch our way into the pool, we can handle this. We can do this. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts?

His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all.

Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallyn, really. Yeah. No, really. Go to really, no, really.com and register to win $500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called really no, really. And you can find it on the I heart radio app on

Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's talk about one of the major players in our social anxiety, which is the inner critic. Yes. Tell me about what the inner critic is, and then let's go into how can we work with the inner critic in relation to social anxiety. We all have an inner critic. This is just hardwired. Nobody except the psychopaths, like I mentioned before, is without an inner critic. And so in social anxiety, this inner critic will tell us that we have a fatal flaw, that there is something that is wrong with us, and that if we don't work very hard to conceal it, it will be revealed and people will judge or reject us for it. And this inner critic usually chooses a trait from one of four buckets. So that first bucket is appearance. And so our inner critic might say, you're too fat, or you're ugly, or your hair is weird, or something to that

extent. The second bucket that our inner critic likes to kind of dip into is the signs of anxiety themselves. So our inner critic might say, well, you better hide, or people will see that you're blushing and they'll think you're an anxious freak, or they'll see that you're sweating through your shirt, or that your voice is trembling as you speak, or that your hands are shaking, that the signs of anxiety themselves will give you away and people will judge you. The third bucket are social skills. So the inner critic will say, you know, you're boring. Nobody wants to listen to this story. You have no sense of humor. You have no personality. It will be very critical of one's attempt to connect with others.

And the last bucket is the biggest bucket, and it's where the inner critic criticizes one's kind of entire personality. So you're stupid or you're incompetent or nobody wants you here. You're a loser. And so in one of those four buckets, the inner critic will choose one of these and will let you know it. The bucket they dip into can change over time, over the lifespan, from situation to situation, or maybe it'll whisper more than one thing at you. But whatever it is, it feels like God's honest truth. It feels like self-consciousness on steroids.

And an analogy I like to use is for folks who don't have social anxiety is that it's as if like we've all had days where we look in the mirror and there's just something off. Like we, you know, we're having a really bad hair day or like suddenly we have a really big zit or something to that extent. And if we have to go out in public like that, we will feel self-conscious and try to cover it. So maybe we'll, you know, wear a hat that day or we'll, you know, try to cover that zit with some, you know, some concealer or something like that. But if you can't, if you have to go out with your hair looking weird or this big zit, you feel very self-conscious. You feel like everybody's paying attention to it and that they'll judge you or notice it and evaluate you negatively. So it's that same

feeling. That's the seed of the feeling, but blown up to like a whole nother level. And rather than being about something external, it's usually about something internal. So something about personality or like just who we are or how we conduct ourselves in the world. Right. And I think those four buckets are so informative and they sort of, by being able to sort of see what it is that we are feeling anxious about or that we're afraid about, leads me into a tool that you talk about that you call social anxiety mad libs. Yeah, sure. So walk me through what this is, because it's one of the first steps in a really powerful tool that you talk about and is a cornerstone of cognitive

behavioral therapy, which is replace. Exactly. So social anxiety mad libs is essentially this sentence. So it's when, and then fill in the blank here, just like in Mad Libs, fill in a social situation that makes you feel anxious. So when I raise my hand in class, it will become obvious that I am blank. I am stupid. I am stuttering. I am turning red, whatever it is. When I go out with my coworkers, it will become obvious that they don't really want me here.

If I ask someone out on a date, it will become obvious that I have no personality, etc., etc., etc. So you can have your inner critic fill in the blank. Think about the things that you avoid. And what is your feared reveal? What are you afraid is going to be shown to the world? And that's what your inner critic is whispering to you. For me, so I have a history of social anxiety myself, and many decades and a PhD in clinical psychology later, I am doing much better.

I am to the point where it does not own me. later, I am doing much better. I am to the point where it does not own me. And I still get nervous about particular things like, for instance, being like if I'm around somebody in authority, I can get a little tongue tied and formal. I don't love being on camera. I can do it, but I'm not a huge fan. I can speak in public. I have to psych myself up beforehand, but I don't, not, not a huge fan. Um, I can speak in public. I have to psych myself up beforehand, but I can do it anyway. And so my inner critic has kind of shifted throughout my life. When I was in college, it was if, or when, when I show up at a social event, it will become obvious that I'm a big loser. When I was starting my career, it was when I hand in whatever work I am doing, it will become obvious that I'm incompetent.

When I was writing How to Be Yourself and I had to cold email intellectual luminaries who have studied social anxiety for their whole lives, it was when I email these people, it will become obvious that I am annoying. annoying. And I know enough now that I can put some space between my inner critics whisperings and, and say like, okay, inner critic, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to help me. You're trying to keep me safe. I appreciate that, but really you're holding me back. And so again, I thank you. And I'm going to go do this now because I know from experience, from not avoiding over many, many years, that the thing that you're trying to tell me is actually not true. So there's a big difference between I'm annoying, which sounds like a truth, and I'm having the thought that I'm annoying, which is just a thought and can be challenged. And so that brings us to the tool you mentioned, which is replace. Yes. And it's such a powerful tool. I really love the way

that you go into it. And before we go too far into it, I want to stress what, what replace isn't. And, um, you're saying that replacing is not about thinking positive or positive thinking or positive affirmations. You say those don't get you very far in the courtroom of your brain. Right, exactly. So replace is not simply taking, so we'll take my last example of I'm annoying. And it's not simply saying like, no, I'm awesome. Like it's not, it's not, it's not just like having a cheerleader, you know, stand on the opposite shoulder, you know, of your inner critic and say like, no, like go girl, you can do it. It's that's, it's not, it's not that simple.

We're not trying to look through rose colored glasses when we replace, we're trying to look through clear colored glasses. We're trying to look at this more accurately, exactly. And so, so what, what we can do is, is ask some questions of the inner critic. And so the first thing that it's very important to do is to specify. And so the anxiety is, all anxiety, particularly social anxiety, is vague. So anxiety will tell us something bad will happen or everybody will hate me. And those are so vague. What particular bad thing will happen? Or who is this everybody? Name names. And so we need to reduce and specify and pinpoint what exactly it is we are

afraid of. Because if we can whittle down something bad will happen to, you know, my shoes will click clack on the floor too loudly and everybody will turn and look to see who that is, then that becomes much easier to logic with. So they look at me. How bad is that? I can handle that as opposed to something bad will happen. Or everybody will hate me. We can whittle that down to I will go to a party and try to make conversation and the person I talk to will give me a weird look and say he has to go refill his drink. Now, you know, that's, there are a lot of different reasons for that. Maybe he's, maybe he's hungry. Maybe he's in a bad mood. Maybe he's kind of a jerk. And so if we specify what exactly it is we are afraid of, what our feared outcome is, then it becomes much easier to logic our way out of.

So that's one to specify. Yeah, it's such a powerful tool to go away from that sort of vague, amorphous fears that we have and sort of boil them down to, all right, here's what the actual thing is. Even just that alone can be so powerful. And then from there, you recommend three magic questions. Sure. So the magic questions, once you specified, are, you know, what's the worst that can happen? Like, what am I really afraid of? Let's push let's push this to, to its limit. And, and so when, when we think about like, okay, like what, what, what is the worst that can happen? So let's, let's say we are going to a job interview. So what's the worst that can happen? Yeah, I don't, I don't get the job. How, and then the

next question, how, how bad is that? Well, I guess, you know, if I really want this job, that would, that would be disappointed. I, you know, I've, I've worked hard, I prepared, I would really like this job, but if I don't get it, I can look for another job. Um, so, so really thinking about like, what's, what's the worst case scenario? Sometimes we realize that the worst case scenario would never actually occur, which makes it very easy to logic with. So for example, we might think in a, I don't know, crowded cafeteria, we, we, we ask, oh, is this, is this seat taken? The worst case scenario, the person stands up and stops at us and says, yes, this seat is taken. What are you doing?

Go away. Nobody wants you here. That's never going to happen. So that's often the things that our brain comes up with. Once we either write them down or say them out loud, we realize, whoa, my brain is going a little haywire here. And in this universe, that would never occur. So it can be very helpful to think about, what does my brain think is the worst case scenario? And then we can ask, to go with that same example, what are the odds? What are the odds that will actually occur? Because again, our inner critic and our social anxiety tells us that terrible things are a foregone conclusion when actually most people are nice. Most people are helpful. It's really hard to hate up close. If you're talking to an individual person, the chances that they will be rude to you are actually quite low. So what are the odds is another question you can ask yourself.

And then the third is, how would I cope? What would I do if the worst case scenario or even the most likely case scenario comes to pass? How can I deal with that? What can I do? What resources can I gather? If something were to occur that were to rattle you, could you call a friend and talk it out? Could you take care of yourself and maybe just take a few deep breaths? Or next chance you get, go to a yoga class. What can you do to take care of yourself if something untoward were to happen. So to realize how bad could this be, what are the odds, and how would I cope? So those are the three questions you can ask yourself to kind of psych yourself up to go into the situations very slowly, again, at your own pace

that you fear. Yeah, those are such great tools and such a really practical way of having some very specific questions that we can ask ourselves and the very process of getting very specific. So much of this stuff, it's not about positive thinking. It's not about rose-colored glasses, but it's about precision in our thinking and really trying to sort of, you know, pull things out of the closet and look at them, you know, our inner critic sometimes just becomes a habit and we avoid things just because we always have. But if we stop and really shine a bright light on what it is we're afraid of, we might realize either, wait a minute, that's unlikely, that's illogical, or I could probably handle that. So let me go and try that and see

what happens. Let me do a little experiment and see what occurs. And so, and any of those things will get us, will start to get us unstuck and, and rolling on our way. Yep. So let's move to another major tool, which is embrace. So step one is we're replacing. Step two is embracing. So what are we doing in the embrace step? the difference between just taking the thought as truth and taking it as a thought. And so to get some space and realize that all the things our inner critic is whispering to us are just thoughts. That's all it is. And that we don't have to follow the inner critic's directions or even follow it. Its advice is actually quite lousy. It's keeping us from living the life we want to live. It's probably holding us back. And so some mindfulness and just realizing like, okay, I might feel like this social anxiety is a ball and chain. I might feel like it is really shackling me and hold me back. But in reality,

what I can do with embrace and mindfulness is to pick up that ball and carry it with me. The ball is still going to be there. The inner critic is still going to be there. The thoughts will still come. But rather than reacting to the thoughts, I can choose how to respond to the thoughts. And in that is a whole world of difference.

So there's a lovely study on mindfulness and social anxiety by two Canadian researchers, Dr. Stephanie Kasson and Dr. Neil Rector. And so they trained about 60 people with, you know, diagnosable, so what I call capital S social anxiety, for just 10 minutes in either mindfulness, distraction, which is paying attention to something that is not the task at hand. And the third group got trained in nothing at all. So there were three conditions, mindfulness, distraction, and then a pure control condition. So in the mindfulness condition, they were taught how to focus on their breath, to bring their attention back when it wandered, to be aware of their thoughts and feelings and accept their

experience in the present moment. So after this, you know, little 10 minute training, these 60 people with social anxiety were asked to remember a really humiliating, awkward or anxiety provoking experience, like a date gone horribly wrong, or a presentation that flopped, or like something super awkward they did at a party. And so they were asked to bring memory to mind as vividly as possible, like really get in there and wallow around in their embarrassment and their anxiety for five minutes. And then they rated how upset they were about that. Okay, then for the next five minutes, they were asked to apply what they had just learned, mindfulness, distraction, which was basically trying not to think about it,

or just to wait it out. And then they were asked to rate how upset they were again. And so of course, which, you know, which group won out. So the mindfulness group won out because, and so their, their distress went down steadily and significantly over those five minutes. In distraction, it didn't go down at all. And in the waited out group, it actually went up. And so this was after just 10 minutes of training, which I think is remarkable. And so it really speaks to how simply being aware that like this, this is the thought I'm having. And that's okay, I can accept my thoughts and feelings in the present in the present moment and realize it's just a thought, can be so helpful in reducing that distress that goes along with social anxiety.

Yeah, it is so powerful to actually be able to just experience what's actually happening in a more open and non-judgmental way. © transcript Emily Beynon I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really.

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The other part of embrace that you talk about that I think is so important, you give an example of how two different coaches might help somebody and one is really yelling at them and the other is being kind. And so a big part

of embrace that you talk about is just this turning our inner environment into a hospitable place. And the huge difference that makes if we just treat ourselves like we would a friend. I feel like that's one of the most fundamental shifts if we can learn to make to consistently think about, all right, how am I talking to myself? What am I saying to myself? And what would I say to a friend? And can I just turn the tone back towards a kinder, more hospitable interior environment. Absolutely. Yeah.

We can't heal in a punitive environment. You can't grow in a punitive environment. And so I've talked to a lot of people who say that their inner critic is a real jerk, you know, like really yells at them or tells them they're stupid or that they're an idiot. And they would never say that to a friend or somebody they love. And they would never say that to a friend or somebody they love. And so trying to translate, you know, the, again, the inner critic means well, even if, even as the inner critic is calling you an idiot, it's trying to as self-compassion and to, to talk to ourselves in a compassionate, more accepting way. And when we create that environment, then we can grow and change. We're not, we're not letting ourselves off the hook. We're not giving in. So a wonderful example I've heard from Dr. Kristen Neff, who is a researcher at the University of Texas and has done a lot in the field of self-compassion, is that she says, imagine a compassionate mother.

That mother is not going to say, go ahead and eat all the cookies, no problem. The compassionate mother will say, well, I know cookies are tempting. I totally get that you want to eat all these cookies, but maybe you can make a healthier choice. And so it doesn't allow you to be indulgent. It doesn't let you off the hook and say, like, you don't have to go to the party or you don't have to apply for that promotion or you don't have to go hang out with your coworkers.

It doesn't allow you, but it says, you know, I know this is hard. It's really hard to go to a neighborhood barbecue where you only know a couple of people. It's really hard to go on a first date. It's really hard to put yourself out there. It's really hard to walk up to someone and start a conversation. But you know what? You've done hard things before. I know you can do it. I know you can get through it. Give it a shot and see what happens. That's self-compassion. through it, give it a shot and see what happens. That's self-compassion. And so for me, my inner critic actually is not a jerk. My inner critic is, I like to say, a little old lady who clutches her

pearls. So she's easily scandalized and says, that's not appropriate. You can't do that. And so I will say to her, like, thank you. I appreciate what you're doing. And it is hard to reach out to intellectual luminaries to research your book. It is hard to do this. But you know what? It actually is appropriate. I think they might be flattered that I'm asking them for their advice or their wisdom. And so let's give this a shot and see what happens. That makes the road so much smoother than saying, oh my gosh, this is not appropriate. This can't be. So I've found it's much easier to talk to yourself as that coach as opposed to the punitive coach, which is your unvarnished inner critic. makes all the difference in the world. I mean, it's a small change. It's also a huge change, but it is one of those things that's just so fundamental to a better and happier life. Absolutely. So we're nearing the end of our time here, but let's talk about creating structure in our social

situations. I found this to be a really powerful tool and a good alternative to, as you mentioned, spending all your time with the cat. I love dogs, but if you put me in a party and there's a dog, it's a combination of me loving dogs and it being easier to pet and talk to a dog than a person, I'll go right for it. But I have found this trick of creating structure to be really helpful for me also. So I was wondering if you could share that with listeners. Oh, it's so great. I used this the other day.

So yeah, my department at work had a spring reception. And so, you know, and I know these people well enough now that I was not, you know, fantasizing about jumping out the window, you know, before I went. But at the same time, I said, okay, well, let me go in with some structure. Let me give myself a mission to fulfill, like give myself a role to play. And so this can be done formally. So for instance, like if you're a member of an organization, like this well kept secret, in my opinion, is to take on a leadership role. And that gives you a reason to talk to everybody, it gives you a duty to fulfill, or it can also be done informally, like what I did at this reception, where you can go in and say, like, all right, I'm going to talk to each person I supervise, my boss, and the receptionist. And after that, I can go. And to just kind of give yourself a

mental checklist of like, what you're going to do, or who you're going to talk to. And then after that, you're done. You can do the same thing in terms of a goal. So like if you and your friends want to get together and make a goal to try every Mexican restaurant in town, or when you go to a birthday party, you can assign yourself the task of talking to, you know, two people you've never talked to before. Or like if you're at a networking event, you can say, all right, I'm going to try to exchange three sets of business cards. Essentially, it gives you a purpose and it takes away the biggest driver of anxiety,

which is uncertainty. And so I'll just close this bit with, there's a lovely study I like to talk about by doctors Simon Thompson and Ron Rapay. And so they, they're Australian researchers who work with social anxiety. And so they did this lovely experiment, which brought in women with social anxiety, so diagnosable social anxiety, and then women who were kind of the opposite, not psychopaths, but women who were kind of more confident and outgoing and could chat easily with others women who were kind of more confident and outgoing and could

chat easily with others. They were kind of at the top end of the extrovert, socially confident spectrum. And one at a time, they had each of these women come into a waiting room, ostensibly for the experiment. And little did they know that the experiment began as soon as they walked through the door. So they sat down and a male research assistant, who they thought was also a participant, came in, sat down next to them and said, huh, I hope we don't have to wait too long. And every 30 seconds for five minutes, if the conversation had lulled, he would give another prompt. So he would say like, oh, nice weather we're having,

or something like that. And this went on for five minutes and was surreptitiously videotaped by the researchers. After five minutes, a researcher came in and said, oh, thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate you taking part in the study. Here's your task. For the next five minutes, I'd like to pretend that you're at a party and I'd like the two of you to get to know each other as well as you can in the next five minutes. Go. So now they had some structure. They had a mission and a goal. And when these two five minute periods, these videotapes were watched and compared and rated on social competence, when the raters looked at those first five minutes with the women with social anxiety, they rated much lower than the women who were kind of more confidently chatty. But if we look at the second five minutes, there, the two groups, social anxiety and, you

know, the opposite thereof, were almost neck and neck. The social anxiety group was a little bit behind, but not much, which is really impressive given that they were being compared to people who kind of do this naturally, who have never met a stranger. And so just a little bit of structure, kind of giving yourself a mission can magically take away that uncertainty. And it seems like it confers social skills, but really all it does is create a structure for you to kind of hang your conversation on. And that is so helpful in so many situations. Yeah, there's another one that you mention in the book that I have used, which is if I go into a networking situation where I don't know anyone, I will often make it my goal to find somebody who looks more uncomfortable than me and go talk, you know, go talk to that person and try and help them to feel

better. It's a, it's a tool that has helped me often when I, you know, when I'm in a situation like that, because it does give me something to do. And also, you know, I've got a lot of experience. My previous company was a solar energy company, and I was always networking. And so I also found it really helpful, like you said, to go in with a goal of like, all right, I want to find these five people and I want to have a conversation with them. Like, it just gave me a little bit more focus than just standing there being anxious. Absolutely. And the well-kept secret is that pretty much everybody is waiting for somebody else to initiate. And when someone does initiate,

they're so relieved. And so it takes the burden off of others when we initiate, when we search out the person who might be kind of nervously scrolling through their phone or standing alone by the, you know, punch bowl or the bar, you know, kind of sipping their drink and looking around. And when we find the people who look like they could use some help starting a conversation or would be relieved if we started the conversation, oftentimes they're very grateful and it leads to a wonderful connection. So, yes, I wholeheartedly support your technique there. Yes. Well, Ellen, we are at the end of our time here. I've really enjoyed this conversation.

I really enjoyed the book. And I hope that these tools are useful to listeners. You and I are going to continue the conversation in our post-show conversation, where listeners can get access to that by becoming supporters of the show. If you're interested, go to oneufeed.net slash support. And we are going to talk about the five myths of social anxiety in the post-show conversation. But thank you again, Ellen. I really enjoyed this. It was a delight to talk to you, Eric. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Okay. Bye.

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