The One You Feed - Embracing Imperfection: The Path to True Self Acceptance with La Sarmiento

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

In this episode, La Sarmiento explores what it means to embrace imperfection to discover the path to true self-acceptance. La shares their journey of discovering and embracing identity, belonging, and the challenges of living authentically in a world that often demands conformity. Key Takeaways: Learning to feed our “good wolf” through conscious effort and daily choices Balancing the absolute truth of oneness with the relative truth of societal inequalities The role of identity in spiritual practice and the complexities of the “no-self” teaching Creating inclusive spaces in spiritual communities and the challenges of true integration The transformative power of unconditional love through relationships, including animals For full show notes, click here! Connect with the show: Follow us on YouTube: @TheOneYouFeedPod Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Follow us on Instagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

That's how I lived a lot of my life, was trying to be perfect so I could be acceptable. And what I found is, wow, the more imperfect I am, the more acceptable I've actually become. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.

Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor,

what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is La Sarmiento, a practitioner of Vipassana meditation since 1998. They are the guiding teacher of the Insight Meditation Community of Washington's BIPOC and LGBTQIA plus Sanghas, a mentor for the Mindfulness Meditation Teacher Certification Program and Cloud Sangha, a contributor to the 10% Happier app,

and a graduate of Spirit Rock's Community Dharma Leader Training Program. Hi, La. Welcome to the show. Hi, Eric. Nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, I am really happy to have you on, and I look forward to this conversation. Let's start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.

And the grandchild stops, thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparent and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Thank you, Eric. Yeah, it's a very powerful parable, you know. And it's interesting because when I was reflecting on it, I wasn't really thinking of it as a good wolf or a bad wolf. For me, it was a younger wolf and an older wolf. And the younger wolf in me was one who,

at a very early age, recognized that my gender identity, my sexual orientation, the race, ethnicity of my being was not one that was acceptable in this country. My parents immigrated from the Philippines, and I came over when I was 10 months old. And with that recognition of those social identities, I internalized a lot of external messages that I wasn't okay, that there was something wrong with me, that, you know, wasn't worthy of existence, you know, that I could be beaten or killed for who I was. And so I really felt strongly that I needed to find a way to fit in. I needed to find a way of being acceptable. My strategy was to assimilate, you know, into dominant culture. And so really forsaking a lot of who I was.

And it wasn't until I actually started practicing and studying the Dharma that I understood that, you know, that wasn't who I was. You know, like I was actually okay, you know, if you believe in sort of the Buddhist concept of Buddha nature that, you know, my innate goodness, wisdom and compassion is inherent in me and is inherent in every being on the planet. And the more I was able to begin trusting and having faith and believing in that, I began to dismantle like all those old messages that, you know, kept telling me I wasn't enough, or I needed to prove myself constantly, or I needed to do more in order to be acceptable or feel a sense of belonging in the larger culture. And so, both those wolves still live in me. And, you know, it's like moments like this when I'm asked to be in an interview with a little one in me is like, no, we can't, we can't share who we are. Like, they're not going to like us if we're authentically who we are. And then the

older part of me is basically what I've been teaching, you know, in the way I offer the Dharma in terms of self-acceptance, self-love, self-compassion, that we all are deserving of love, respect, dignity. And, you know, the more I allow externals to determine my worth, I'm going to suffer. The more that I recognize that I'm already good inside and what anyone else thinks of me or how society or culture thinks of me, that's really none of my business, you know, ultimately. So it really is making that distinction and beginning to just really believe that I'm okay. Everybody is okay. We just have these constructs that have been created to dominate, you know, over certain kinds of people, whether it be race, ethnicity,

sexual orientation, abilities, class, etc. So the wolf that I choose to cultivate is my older one, you know, that has this clarity, that has this willingness to just cultivate continued acceptance of myself so that I can continue to accept others for who they are. We may disagree in terms of beliefs and things, but I always remember that we're all human beings and we all deserve compassion and love and respect, even if our beliefs differ from each other. Yep. Kind of jumping way ahead in your story to that point about what you just said there,

even if our beliefs are different, we can see the beauty in one another. In one of your Dharma talks, you tell a really beautiful story about a woman named Mary from Texas, who's a Trump supporter at a Dharma talk that you went to. Can you share a little bit about that? Just something you said there sort of just brought that to mind for me. And I thought it might be a lovely story to hear. Sure. So you're referring to a day-long retreat that I did at the Dharma Ranch outside of Austin, Texas. And Mary happened to be neighbors with the folks that owned the retreat center. And she was just really curious about meditation and mindfulness.

She's always wanting to grow and learn. And she identified as a Republican. And so I didn't really know this when we were in the retreat, but she was very engaged. She was very open and had just very lovely things to say, you know, after the retreat was over. And I just really appreciated, you know, her willingness just to explore, you know, to be in relationship to one another so that we can just get what informs, you know, what we believe. And as long as we are able to do that in a way that's respectful and kind and generous, I think those bridges are possible. Yeah, you talk about how she wrote you a really lovely note afterwards saying like, thank you for sharing about why, you know,

gender pronouns are important to you. And, you know, just a really beautiful sort of coming together. And what I love about that story is it shows an openness from both of you, right? That sort of connection doesn't happen if you're not both open, because you do see the world very differently. Some of the things she believes in, you would find like, uh-uh, no way, right? And vice versa. And yet you are able to have a human connection across that. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And that's what to me is so important in terms of having discussions, whether it be around race or sexual orientation or gender identity is really relationship. You know, when we're in relationship with each other, when we build trust, respect, love even with each other, then we can hang in there together,

you know, and be a bit more, if not accepting, tolerant to listen to what each other's opinions and beliefs are. And when we can discuss that and share what the impact is of these beliefs and opinions, you know, we can probably get somewhere than just beating each other over the head with our signs, you know, at protests or etc. So can I ask you some questions about your gender identity and how that sort of unfolded for you? Yeah, please. So you talk about at a very early age, like you mentioned, you recognized your race wasn't right. You recognized pretty early on that you were, you recognized your race wasn't right. You recognized pretty early on that you were attracted to little girls, not little boys. When did you

start to recognize that your gender didn't feel right? And there weren't really words for it in the same way then that there are now. So I'm kind of curious, how did that feel inside? Or how did you even think about it inside? Maybe before you had the words to know what it was. Right, exactly. So I love dressing like I hated dresses. Every picture of me in a dress growing up, I'm crying. It was really like painful.

So I loved wearing pants. I love wearing boys clothes, basically. I just felt more like myself when I dress that way than if I were in a dress. And then I played with a lot of boys toys. You know, I didn't play with dolls or dollhouses or Barbies or, you know, anything that would be gendered as female. I played with guns. I loved roughhousing and, you know, wrestling with other kids.

I loved riding my bike and, you know, just a lot more that would be gendered as male in terms of play behavior. Yeah. I mean, it was really clear, you know. And then when I became an adolescent and I started to enter puberty and develop, I was like, oh, no, like this just doesn't feel right to me. oh, like, this just doesn't feel right to me. And even, you know, in terms of my sexual desires, and who was attracted to, you know, it was not as a heterosexual person, it was definitely as a queer person. And so, you know, there's just all these different things pointing in the direction of more masculine identified. And I thought as a young child that, oh, I need to become a man when I grew up so that

I can live my life the way I want to. There was no option of being non-binary or gender conforming, you know, back in the 70s and 80s. That, you know, language only sort of came up in the 90s, et cetera. And so, I just kind of sat with it, you know. I didn't like being identified as a lesbian because I didn't feel like, I don't really feel like a woman. So, you know, being attracted to women as a woman didn't fit for me. So I've always felt like I've been on the outside of a lot of the, you know, sort of whether it be a binary gay or lesbian or male or female, you know, it was just like I was not one or the other. I was kind of a combination, you know, of it all. Now you came out to your parents at, I think you said 38. That coming out was coming out as a

lesbian, not as a transgender person. Is that correct? Right. Because it came out as gay to them. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about that. There's a lot of beauty and humor kind of in that story of finally coming out to your parents. Yeah. So just to back up a little bit, you know, I grew up in a very conservative household. My parents were staunch Republicans, Bush loving, Fox News watching folks. And, you know, it was just not the atmosphere that I felt safe enough to come out to them, you know, as a gay person, more or less a transgender person. So I feel like they were the last people that I felt safe enough to come out to them, you know, as a gay person, more or less a transgender

person. So I feel like they were the last people that I came out to. And so I decided that, you know, I would just wait and just kind of see how it would unfold. But I came out to the rest of the world when I was 21. And I went to this human potential workshops called the Landmark Forum. And in the forum, you know, they really challenge you to do things that are holding you back in your life, you know. And so for me, it was coming out to my parents. And so I decided, okay, I will come out to them. So I called my mom one day and I said, Mom, I want to come over. I have something really important to tell you. And she said, okay, you know, come on over. And so I came over for lunch and my parents always had the TV on. And so I said, you know,

can we turn Bonanza off for a second? And they're like, oh, my gosh, this is really serious. We're turning the TV off. And so I said, you know, I've been wanting to tell you this for a really long time. And and that's that I'm gay. And I start getting really emotional. I'm crying. And my mother says, you know, there's no need for you to cry.

You know, we've been waiting for you to say something for the last 18 years. And I was just dumbfounded. I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, like they gave me no clue. Although if you know me and you see me, it's like it's so obvious. You know, it was my own denial of that. Right. And they're like, you know, you're our child and we love you no matter what, you know.

And so I felt sad. I grieved the fact that I lost 18 years of a relationship, a real relationship with my parents. But better late than never. And so, you know, we continued. They paid for my partner and my wedding, you know. They totally supported us. They embraced my life partner. And, yeah, it's been really sweet since then.

And they came out with three pieces of advice for you, two of which I sort of understand. You know, you need to get your finances in order. Okay. Self-defense class. All right. But the last one, you say your dad pipes up. He hasn't said anything all along. And he says, you have to change all the appliances in your kitchen. Can you elaborate on what the thinking was there? Were your

appliances not appropriate for a recently come out person? Was this something that he'd been meaning to get off his chest for a while? Yeah, I think he was just trying to connect somehow. And he just couldn't get anything. He was already probably overwhelmed by the whole process that we were actually, you know, connecting emotionally. And so, yeah, my father's a real like acts of service kind of guy in his love language. And so it's all about the practical, you know, and I lived in my apartment for a while and the appliances actually needed to get replaced. And actually, that's the first thing we did.

The next thing I did was, you know, get my finances in order. And then years, years later, I took a self-defense class. So the list is complete. The list is complete. Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about this feeling like you, you know, fitting in and not fitting in and belonging and not belonging, because I think this is a universal experience. And certainly, when you don't fit into the dominant culture, it's even more of an experience. Or another way to say that would be someone like me, a straight white man can still feel like I don't belong in lots of ways, but I don't have the cultural sense of not belonging. And I thought you really brought this together in a beautiful way

because you talked about going to a retreat. I think it was your first retreat at Spirit Rock that was LGBTQ retreat, right? And you get there and you think, all right, I'm going to be with my people. But you talk about how profoundly still you felt like you didn't belong. Can you say a little bit more about that? Because I think there's a lot of power in that story. Yeah, thank you, Eric. It was, you know, I mean, I think the conditioning in me to have that sense of not belonging anywhere, even translated, you know, into like a community that I was actually a part of. And I noticed for the first

three days on that retreat that I kept comparing myself to others, you know, and this retreat was at Spirit Rock out in California. So, of course, you know, many of the queer folks there had tattoos and piercings and, you know, were just so hip and cool. And I was just like, East Coast, I have no tattoos, I have no piercings, you know, pretty straight laced, quote unquote, in a way. And I never have felt like enough of something. And so I would just be like, you know, I'm not like these folks, you know, I'm not trans enough, I'm not queer enough, I'm not even a person of color enough, you know, being Asian in this culture, etc. And so I suffered with that story that I had

believed, you know, all my life for like three days on that retreat. And I just sat with the pain of this feeling of separation. And so I just got this insight after a sitting practice where why am I relying on something external to me to determine my belonging? You know, why am I waiting for this outside force to say like, La, you're acceptable, you're lovable, you belong here. And also, it wasn't like anyone was saying to me, La, you don't belong here. It was all in my head. And so, I decided from then on that, you know, I can just claim my belonging. You know, it reminds me of the story of the Buddha when he got enlightened and Mara was taunting him and seducing him and berating him. You know, basically, it was just his mind that he didn't deserve.

You know, he's not worthy. And the Buddha put his hand on the ground and basically said, with the earth as my witness, I belong, you know, I deserve to exist. And so I just really try to carry that, you know, with my older wolf, you know, to like, no matter where I am, whether it be in a, you know, dominant culture environment, and I'm the only one yet again, that it's like, you know, bottom line, no matter where I am, whether it be in a dominant culture environment, and I'm the only one yet again, that it's like, you know, bottom line, I do belong. I may not look like or have similar experiences to the people here, but I belong and we actually all belong, you know. And

so just noticing my tendency to be on guard, and that's really a protective mechanism for myself, you know, that I've developed for many years. And ultimately, it's like, I'm okay, you know, and I don't have to wait. I always talk about how like, we all are like perfect cakes. And then, you know, it's like anything outside of that is like extra nice buttercream is like wonderful. It just adds to the cake. It doesn't like make the cake better. It's just a nice little addition. Yeah. In that story, I was struck by you sort of saying like, you know, you're alternating between judging yourself, judging them. And I think it's so interesting what groups do to a lot of us. You know, when you put us into a group where we don't know people, for so many of us, that's exactly what starts to happen. And I think that's why groups can be such powerful means of transformation is if we can watch that process from a place of a little bit higher awareness. We go, oh, look, what's happening? Like, I'm judging you.

And then five seconds later, I'm judging myself. You suck. I suck. I mean, like it and it's just this whole dance that happens because I feel like I want to belong. We know some of that is just what it is to be a human, right? We're wired to want to belong. We're wired to suss out. Am I safe? Do I belong? You know? But again, I think those things go so much deeper for people who, even in every situation, feel like they don't belong. It must be so challenging. I'm going to circle back to your original answer about the wolves, because we're kind of back in the same territory. And I

wanted to ask this question, which is, you mentioned a younger wolf and older wolf. The younger wolf being the one that felt like she doesn't belong and she doesn't fit and the older wolf being one that's a little bit wiser. And I guess I'm curious, do you feel like if you'd had the older wolf in your life as a younger wolf, I'm now I'm really torturing the metaphor here that it would have helped because you do a lot of work with teenagers. You know, that's sort of when like all this underground, like, I'm not sure I belong, like explodes to the surface. Do you think that it can really help us to have people who are

a little further down the path sharing with us like, hey, of course, you feel like you don't belong. That's normal. That's natural. But you do? Yeah. Oh, most definitely, Eric, for sure. And I loved working with teens, you know, and it was interesting because when I first was approached to teach, you know, teens, I was asked like, oh, la, you know, have you ever experienced working with teens or anything like that? And I said, I have no experience working with teens and I'm quite afraid of them. You know, and that's always a message for me to actually dive in, you know, and check this out. And a lot of it was that I hadn't healed my own inner teen, you know, the one that felt like they needed to hide and couldn't be fully themselves and, you know,

go through the motions of going to the prom when, you know, it's like, this is the last thing I want to be doing right now, et cetera. And so, working with teens, you know, and one of the first things I say with teens on retreats is like, let's just put out on the table that we're all a bit awkward. You know, we all just want to be loved, accepted, appreciated for who we are, all of who we are. And what we're going to create here is the world we want to be living in, which is like you can be all of who you are and feel loved and respected and heard. And so it really is. And so there's so many, you know, teens that I taught during those years that have come out now as gender nonconforming or nonbinary. And, yeah, there's this possibility. And then to see someone who's actually happy, you know, that has, you know, really has a good life and that it's possible for them. And

it wasn't easy, definitely growing up and to find my happiness inside myself and not rely on it coming from the outside. And at, you know, such a young age, you know, from like 13 to 19, like your approval or acceptance from peers is so important, you know, and so that sense of belonging is very much dependent on the external. And what an older, you know, person can say, it's like, yeah, that's true. And it shifts and changes as you get older, and you become less and less dependent, you know, on that. At least I did. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

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And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You are an unusual Dharma teacher in that you generally don't write out Dharma talks and really plan and prepare. You say that despite being a person who's hyper organized in other aspects of your life, in this area, you tend to let things happen. You often start off with a song on a ukulele. But I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that idea of sort of just showing up and letting what emerges emerge. Is it courage that allows you to do that? Or is it fear that causes you to do that? Yeah.

So when I was in kindergarten, I got a needs improvement in show and tell. And I felt like that just scarred me for so much of my life, you know, of this, oh, like, I can't be in front of a lot of people. And it's been a real just deep practice, Eric, of just continuing to show up. Because the last thing I ever wanted to be was a teacher. Like, this was not in a way and been given a lot of really wonderful opportunities by dear teachers of mine, exposure, you know, to have these ways of, you know, showing up in the world. And I just kind of take it on as a challenge, as a practice for me to sort of write, I mean, I'm starting to do that a little bit more, but it's risky, you know, because I can show up in a retreat or a talk and not really know where it's going to go or if it's going to make any sense. I think it also helps me just kind of trust myself more.

You know, we live in a culture that like everything's got to be perfect. I always say I'm not podcast ready when it comes to like, you know, giving talks and things like that. So it really is that it's okay to be imperfect. It's okay to not know. It's okay to be real and authentic. And it's really resonated for people. It helps people relax a little bit, you know, because we live in such a striving culture and a culture of perfection. And, you know, we can't be acceptable unless we're perfect. Yeah. And that's how I lived a lot of my life was trying to be perfect so I could be acceptable.

And what I found is, wow, the more imperfect I am, the more acceptable I've actually become through, you know, the spaces that I've taught. Right. It's a really interesting dance between preparation and not being prepared. You know, like I prepare a lot for these conversations, but I do it primarily out of a deep respect for the people I'm going to talk to. And then I try and also let go of it to some degree and allow what's going to emerge, emerge. And so it's a little bit of a dance to find what's the right way to do it. Now, luckily I've got Chris, my editor sitting on the back end, making me sound coherent. Believe me, he's got his work cut out for him very often. You talk a lot about keeping

your practice really simple. And you said that there are four questions as you go through life that you just sort of use to orient yourself back to the moment and being present and your practice. And I thought maybe we could just talk through those four questions. You may not even remember them given that you stand up and give Dharma talks. Do you remember what the four are? Is your heart open or closed? Yeah. Are you feeling connected or disconnected?

Yeah. Are you suffering or are you free? Yeah. And are you feeling empowered or disempowered? Yeah. Are you suffering or are you free? Yeah. And are you feeling empowered or disempowered? Yeah. So talk to me about how you use those conversations in your life and then how you use them to guide what you do in the next moment. So for me, those questions help me determine in a concrete way if I'm suffering. When I notice that I'm suffering, so that would be when my heart is closed, I'm feeling disconnected, you know, I'm suffering and I'm feeling disempowered. It's like this self-compassion just immediately arises. Like I'll just say to myself, oh my gosh,

buddy, you're really, you know, struggling right now, you know, and to like just really pause and just allow myself to have my feels about whatever it is I'm going through, whether I'm feeling sad or angry or disappointed or shut down. And so when I'm able to allow myself, and this was not something that I was allowed to do as a child, you know, to have my feelings and understand what my feelings are and to work with them. I don't think many of us, you know, were ever really taught that. many of us, you know, were ever really taught that. And so when I'm able to tend to that, then I can like get, okay, I may be feeling this way, but I can cultivate a different way of being one that actually will have me feeling more connected, having my heart open, feeling freer, and also empowered. My tendency in the past was to bypass it. You know, I'll say like, oh, La, you're a Dharma teacher.

Like, you shouldn't be feeling these feelings. Like, you should know better, you know, kind of thing. And so these questions really bring me back home to just getting like, my heart is closed. I'm feeling disconnected. I'm not empowered and I'm suffering. So let me take care of myself right now because I don't have the capacity to do the next thing until I tend to what's right here. You know, like I said, we live in a culture where we just kind of bypass all that. And then we react to things rather than consider and respond in a more skillful way.

So I don't do it, you know, I'm definitely not skillful all the time. You can get my partner to tell you that. She often questions like, are you sure you're a mindfulness teacher? And I'm like, I love that, you know, because it's just so humbling just to remember I'm also human. And I'll fall off the wagon and I'll get back on the wagon, you know, and I can forgive myself and I can have compassion for myself, especially when I'm struggling and I'm not necessarily getting it right. Have you found that, you know, suddenly being asked to be a mindfulness teacher and agreeing to step into that role, you mentioned that those feelings of like, well, shouldn't I

know better than this? Shouldn't I be doing better than this? Talk to me about how you work with that. Has that been something that has emerged more for you since you've stepped into that role? Or is that sort of just always been part of your personality, which is like, you shouldn't feel this way? Yeah, that's definitely been part of my personality, you know, because, you know, if you're that way, then that's going to be more stuff that people can call you on that's not

going to be acceptable, right? And so I think it's helped me just become more human, just kind of accepting my... For me, I thought being mindful was doing it right. But actually being mindful is just know what you're doing. And so, for me, that distinction was really helpful. And so, it was like, oh, I'm aware that this is what's happening, you know, versus like, oh, I'm aware that this is what's happening, you know, versus like, oh, I'm going to get it right. You know, it's like, I'm aware I'm going to eat that third donut. And I know what it's going to do. I'm very aware of that. You know, it may not be the most skillful thing, but I'm aware that I'm doing that versus like, you know, just kind of bypassing and just always doing the right thing.

I'm struck by, in a lot of cases, how you refer to your practice, how simple you keep it. You say, I keep my practice really simple by noticing my suffering and confronting it with kindness and compassion. You know, I approach my practice with as much courage, willingness, and humility as I can. And I seek to find the Dharma in everything because it's everywhere all the time. And I seek to find the Dharma in everything because it's everywhere all the time. So I love that idea that reminds me of that last line of the Bodhisattva vows or the great vows for all. They have different names, but the Dharma gates are countless. I vow to wake to them, right?

They're everywhere. Yeah, exactly. When I first came up, I just thought like, oh, sitting retreats all the time and just practicing every day and just being on my cushion was the practice. But there was such a disconnect from what was happening out in the world, what was actually happening with my life. And so, to me, you know, it's like taking the training wheels off, you know, when we go out into the world and we engage. And, you know, a big question that's going around in certain dominant culture Dharma circles right now is like, well, what does social justice have to do with the dharma? It actually is the dharma, because it's all about suffering. And so, if that is making us feel uncomfortable bringing that into our meditation halls or on our cushions, then what are we actually doing on our cushions? And so, it really

is, it's that cultivation of a heart, as my teacher Eric Kolfig, a heart that's ready for anything, you know. And so it really is about bringing that in and recognizing and allowing ourselves to feel the depth of that suffering so that we can act from a place of compassion to do something about it. That's one of my biggest interests and biggest questions that I look at is, you know, how do we bridge this gap from what we sort of know, and maybe even what we practice formally by sitting and meditating and whatever, to all the rest of the moments of our broadly forgetting you know it's forgetting that there is a Dharma or forgetting that there's another way to respond or forgetting that there's another layer or level of our heart and we just get in motion in life and just cut the t-t-t-t-t-t-t you know habitual reactions and and you know more and more I think that's the biggest question. And the one that, you know, I am always interested in is, you know, how do people remember, you know, so I guess, how has that evolved for you over time? How did you start to bring the Dharma into more of the moments of your life? And how have you continued to do that?

Yeah, I love what you say about like forgetting and remembering, you know, and what helps me remember is taking refuge, you know, taking refuge in the Buddha. And for me, it's not only the representation of the possibility of awakening, you know, in a lifetime, and it's also recognizing my own Buddha nature. It's recognizing my own innate goodness, my own wisdom and compassion, everything that we seem to be wanting to buy out there that will bring us happiness is actually in here. And then taking refuge in the Dharma, just the teachings and practices of awareness and compassion, of wisdom and compassion to be able to see clearly what is actually happening so that I can then discern how to engage it. Because I have no control over what's happening, I do have control over how I react or respond to what's happening, how I relate to what's happening. And then to take refuge in the Sangha. So even being around like-minded, like-hearted folks that will help me, will help me remember when I've, you know, sort of strayed off the path that, you know, we kindly and gently like bring each other back. We're here to wake each other up as well as Ram Dass saying, walk each other home. But, you know, to me, they're almost the same thing. And it's been painful. You know, I've been part of dominant culture sanghas for a long time and people don't want to be really uncomfortable in waking up.

sanghas for a long time and people don't want to be really uncomfortable in waking up. You know, that's why I have my song, Waking Up is Hard to Do, is because it is uncomfortable. And to me, our practice is learning to be more comfortable being uncomfortable, you know, but so much of mindfulness is being sold as, oh, free yourself from stress or be more productive and more focused at work, etc. But what's missing is, yeah, we have to be with like what's hard and challenging so that we can see it clearly and address it skillfully. And so that's what really like helps me remember to come back. Thank you. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

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or wherever you get your podcasts. As we talk about identity, and we've been talking about identity here, whether it be gender identity, sexual identity, race identity, right? As we talk about these things, we have identity. And then as we move in deeper and deeper into the Dharma, we start to encounter ideas that say, hey, there's no self actually here. You know, this quote unquote identity that you're so worried about either protecting or propping up doesn't actually exist. And I've heard you say that what is the importance of identity in this practice is one of the most important things that we've got to figure out if we're going to have a dharma that is truly inclusive. So can you share

a little bit more about how both those things are true, how that identity is absolutely real and true, and it's kind of also not. And how do we work with that? Yeah, thank you, Eric. You know, I think the teaching on no self is like one of the most confusing, you know, concepts in Buddhism, and especially with regards to social identities, you know, so to me, the absolute truth is that we're all one. The relative truth is that we don't treat each other that way. You know, some folks based on their race are treated less than or their sexual orientation or gender identity or class, physical abilities, its mental abilities, etc. You know, so when people say to me, you know, well, we're all one law, why do you need to separate yourselves out as a, you know, BIPOC Sangha or LGBTQIA plus

Sangha? And I said, well, who's one are we being? Elaborate on that. Who's one are we being? Yeah. So if you don't feel like it's important for folks who have felt marginalized, colonized, or oppressed, you know, ancestrally, historically, you know, right now in this lifetime. We can't be all one if they're feeling not safe or not seen or not respected in these dominant culture spaces. You know, that's not inclusion. You know, I have this analogy of like a dominant culture dinner party where they want to invite some new guests to the dinner. And so they're like, the new guests are like, oh, we'd love to come. We'd love to bring our food and music because we like to dance after we eat.

And the dominant culture host is, no, we already ordered the food. You know, the menu is set. We just need you to sit at the table. That's not inclusion. That's assimilation. Like, we want you here, but we want you here on our terms, you know, versus we want you here and we want you to bring the richness of who you are to us so that we want you here on our terms, you know, versus we want you here and we want you to bring the richness of who you are to us so that we can be here together and learn from each other.

There's a real difference. And so, yes, that's the absolute truth that we're definitely aspiring towards, but it is not at all as we are seeing right now, you know, the way that we treat each other. I'm curious on a practical level, how we start to bring these things together. As someone who's interested in how communities form and come together, you know, if you've got a dominant culture, so you've got a sangha that's, let's say, 98% white people, and you have, you know, a few people who don't quite fit that who kind of fit in and again, are sort of asked to assimilate, you don't have diversity there, right? If on the other hand, you have a sangha that is oriented towards LGBTQ, right? Now you've got two sanghas, right? You got one over here and one over here. And I'm kind of curious, is it even important that we move towards a sangha in which

it's everyone seen for who they are and valued for who they are? How have you seen that actually work well in real life or have you? It's slow. Yeah, it's really slow, especially I think, you know, with say the BIPOC sangha, you know, in my community, it's like it's very few people that are part of that Sangha join the larger dominant culture Sangha. And, you know, often called microaggressions, etc. Yeah, yeah. Where it's like, I don't even call them microaggressions anymore, because they're still harmful, you know, make microaggressions makes it Oh, it's so tiny, it shouldn't really matter. But it does, it has huge impact. And so I do believe it's important for everybody to come together. But I don't think that we're necessarily there yet. I think that the dominant culture has a lot of work to do on themselves around their understanding of themselves, you know, especially as white people, you know, white supremacists, you know, white privileged culture. And then to then, you know, understanding yourself and then understanding the impact of, you know,

the systems and the institutions that perpetuate, you know, this harm, this marginalization, this oppression of people that aren't white, or of a dominant culture identity. So, you know, I have this phrase that I've coined, that's racial is glacial, like it takes a really long time. It takes a really long time, even in spiritual communities where you would think, oh, well, everyone's got good intention, big hearts, etc. But we're still human beings who are deeply conditioned by the culture. And again, going back to being called in or called out, whatever you want to use, whatever term you want to use, it makes it really hard. You know, it doesn't make it safe for folks like myself to want to engage. So there's a lot of work to be done. Is it appropriate for people who are in the dominant culture to want to be involved in and attend, say, a BIPOC sangha? Or is that not the right approach? Not the right place? Not a

place that I would belong? I mean, because what I'm trying to find is, we certainly know that exposure to each other increases understanding, increases knowledge, increases tolerance. So this is just somebody who recognizes that I am part of the dominant culture in all the ways, right? White, male, cisgendered, and still trying to say, all right, where do I and how do I advocate for fairer and more equitable places where I exist? Yeah. Definitely have gotten a lot of, you know, questions from dominant culture folks saying, oh, you know, can I just join your BIPOC sangha? You know, because I want to learn, you know, like how to engage and how to be. And it's not appropriate because that space is a refuge and a safe space for BIPOC folks to be able to like not have to worry about, you know.

You know, like, you know, if there's a white person in the room, like we do this,, like, a lot of people do it, like, I have to deal with those folks in my job, like, all the time. And, you know, here's a really, like, safe space that actually inspires, rejuvenates, resources people so that we can go out into the world. And so, to be a good ally would be to be one to, you know, do your own work, work with your own people, because we started doing these week-long retreats. We would have, you know, the your own work, work with your own people. Because we started doing these week-long retreats, we would have, you know, the sits in the big hall. And then we would have once a day an affinity sit for LGBTQIA plus folks and every other day for the BIPOC folks. And people were like, well, why do they have to like separate themselves out? Well, the thing about it is,

is the white folks don't realize when they're in the big meditation hall, they're one big affinity group. And all we're doing in the other room is just being together like you're being together in that room. We're not talking about revolution or overthrow. You're not? No. We're just sitting just like you. Just like you, but there's something about, you know, sitting together that just allows us to go deeper because we're not necessarily being activated by, you know, this conditioning that we have, you know, when we're in a mixed group. So it is like a little bit of a refuge to kind of resource ourselves so that we can come and engage, you know, in the bigger group. Yeah.

So it really is. And I think sometimes some dominant culture folks kind of want to just kind of bypass it, like, why can't we just all just be one together, like just all just kind of mix. And it can get pretty messy, you know, if there's not a lot of consciousness, if there's not a lot of like willingness just to deeply listen or know, you know, if you're someone who is entitled to take up a lot of space or has always been able to take up a lot of space, you know, to make space for others, you know, and have their voices included. So there's a lot of practices that need to be in place in order to feel that sense of equity, that sense of belonging, that sense of true, you know, welcome and inclusion. Yep. Yep. I like, I guess I should say I don't like it because I wish it wasn't that way. But racial is glacial. Speaks to something that I feel deeply, which is just this like an impatience with like,

let's get things better, you know? And yet sometimes staring at the problem and being like, wow, this feels colossal, colossal, glacial. It's so buried in our systems, in our institutions. Laws are made to oppress people. You talk about gerrymandering and all those. I mean, there are things that are actively laws being passed to oppress people. And people don't get that.

Maybe they do or maybe they don't, but that's what's happening. That's the result of those actions. Not sure exactly what it's going to take, but it's going to take a long time, whatever it is. Well, yeah, I think it feels challenging, particularly when, you know, you do have what I think is a reasonable amount of the dominant culture that at least is open to things changing. But then, you know, it appears that a significant portion is, like you said, like gerrymandering everything, rolling back voting rights. And it just feels sort of like, oh, boy. It's deep. It's what this country was founded on.

Yeah. Was racism. I don't want to go too deep down that rabbit hole because we could be here forever. I want to actually pivot a little bit, not that I'm disagreeing with what you said there, because I was actually about to ask a question about whether are most countries not that way, but I want to change direction just a little bit, which is something that you said, which is related. Now I want to understand a little bit more. You said being open to however life is unfolding and being willing to have my heart broken open over and over again in order to break my own habitual conditioning is my practice. This approach for me is energizing

and not draining. And believe me, I've been drained. I'm tying this to where we just were, which is when we look at some of these things, what we can feel is very drained. And I'm curious, as you said, like, I find this approach energizing. Talk to me about how what I just read of yours applies to what you and I were just talking about a couple minutes ago and does it or am I taking it out of context? Yeah, it is energizing when I'm resourced. You know, in the past month, I've had some really, really painful, draining conversations with fellow teachers in my own community and just really getting like, oh, wow, we maybe have moved a centimeter or so in 16 years. that, you know, I'm so surprised that I don't have a concussion from banging my head against the wall, trying to explain and this stuff to people over these years. But when I find I'm with folks that really want to understand, and really want to grow and have the humility to really deeply listen and take responsibility for their own ignorance or their own lack of consciousness, then I'm happy

to engage like I'm more than willing, you know. But when there is pushback or defensiveness, you know, it's a lot of emotional labor for someone like me to engage in those kinds of conversations. And so I've been much better at saying like, you know what, I just can't do it. You know, I'll call on an ally to speak up or I'll give you some links and then you can do some research to, you know, educate yourself. But I really need to conserve my own energy, you know, because this is just my life. I mean, this is just constant, you know, for me. And it's not just this thing I'm

going to dabble in just because, you know, I'm feeling guilty or I feel like I need to do something right now. This is just my existence. I wrestle with that, having you on and asking you these questions. I'm trying to do it from a place of hopefully growth and healing and helping others. And I recognize like I'm putting you into a particular role that sometimes I feel uncomfortable with. Well, you know, I think for me, you know, it's part of my own practice, you know, doing this work, DEIA work for your audience, diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility work for the last 16 years is it's really deepened my practice around patience, tolerance, acceptance, compassion. You know, like it's really pushed me, you know, in ways that I never imagined. It's opened my heart in ways that I never imagined. I mean, that's the thing.

It's like I don't want any of this stuff to shut my heart down. Like my aspiration is to keep my heart open as possible. It's on a dimmer switch, you know. It's kind of like, oh, I'm going to talk to this person. It's going to be down to like 20% open versus like, oh, I'm hanging out with my pups. It'll be 90% open. Yeah. So, but, you know, it's work that's necessary.

It's super important, you know, like all of our lives depend on it. And a friend of mine that I just made was on a panel this past week. And she said, you know, racism will not stop until white people end it. And so it really is not necessarily our job. But I feel like because I have the capacity, I think that was the blessing and maybe hindrance of being assimilated growing up. You know, it's like I can hang in these spaces and dominant culture spaces with a little bit more ease than some of my, you know, maybe BIPOC friends. And so if I can, you know, be a bridge or if a few white folks wake up a little bit, you know, just being in my presence and in conversation, then I'm happy. You know, it's something that I can give.

I love that analogy of heart open versus closed on a dimmer switch. I love that idea. And I also loved where you talked about the non-binary nature of gender gives you that ability to float in between things, kind of makes you a middle way expert. I love that. I may have put slight words in your mouth there, but I think that's close to what you were saying. And I think that dimmer switch is a beautiful example of that. Like, is my is my heart open or closed is pretty binary noticing that it's 75% open. Okay. That's pretty good. You know, that's all right. But where I wanted to end was talking about Casey, your dog, because I think you and I have had a very similar experience, which is that you talk about Casey, which is a dog you only had for four months who really opened your heart. And I came to dogs later in life, did not like them most of my life.

I don't know if that would be where you were. I was a vehement anti-dog person and had a dog that opened my heart. But share a little bit about Casey and in what ways an animal was able to open your heart in ways that humans weren't? Thank you for that, Eric. Yeah, I'm the same as you. I used to think that people had pets because they didn't want to deal with other people. It might be true. It probably is. And so, you know, we adopted Casey from my parents when my mom got diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor. And, you know, it was

this like just little being, Casey was a Norwich Terrier, which is like a really small, compact, little spunky little dog. And she was about 12 when we adopted her. And she just was my companion, you know, during my mom's last year of life. And, you know, she was just always there, of life. And, you know, she was just always there, just lay beside me when I would cry. And there was just something about like this silent little being, you know, just the presence of that, that unconditional love, you know, sometimes human love can be so conditional, but with a dog, with an animal, it was my first taste of that kind of unconditional love. And so we've had three more dogs since then. And it's pure joy and definitely a practice of patience and acceptance and messiness, which I don't tolerate very well. So it's also a good practice in

confronting my need for order in my life. But yeah, Casey was truly a real gift that was totally unexpected. And that's so much of like how I just, I just trust life, you know, like life will bring me what I need, the people, the animals, the experiences. And I just flow with it, you know, as best I can. Yeah, mine was Sadie, the one who opened my heart. And I know that Tara Brock is a teacher you've worked closely with, was a spitting image, like literally twins of her. When Tara and I talked on the interview, we shared photos, we're like, oh my god, like, it's just uncanny. But yeah, Sadie's the one who opened my heart. And I often feel like it just feels like the biggest gift that like somewhere near midlife, I discovered this whole species of creatures that I had no appreciation for that I'm now like is one of the greatest joys of my life. I just feel so, so fortunate in that regard. It's been such a lovely thing. Such a lovely thing. Well, La, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. It has been a real pleasure to have you on and really grateful that we got to spend this time together. Yeah. Thank you, Eric. Thank you for having me. It's been fun. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits.

It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you?

We have the answer. For what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.