The One You Feed - Finding Courage in Life's Daily Struggles with Kelly Corrigan

Episode Date: August 23, 2024

In this special collaborative episode, Kelly Corrigan and Eric come together to discuss wide range of topics with an overarching theme of how to find courage in life's daily struggles. From Eric sharing his overcoming addiction story to Kelly sharing her overcoming cancer story, they explore the many challenges and uncertainties of life.  In this episode, you will be able to: Discover how to curate a social media feed that uplifts and inspires Explore the impact of technology on mental wellness and how to harness its benefits Learn effective strategies for breaking free from addiction and reclaiming control Embrace the power of intellectual humility to foster deeper connections and understanding Uncover the courage within ordinary moments and the transformative impact it can have To learn more, click here!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you want to have a big, juicy, fast-moving, energetic conversation, you can't really do that unless people have opinions. Because two people who are really steeped in intellectual humility are just going to kind of look at each other without words and say, yeah, it's kind of hard to know. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do.

We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app,, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Kelly Corrigan. She's written four New York Times bestselling memoirs in the last decade, earning her the title of the Poet Laureate of the Ordinary from the Huffington Post and Voice of a Generation from O Magazine. Kelly has also penned some very popular op-eds about applying to college, becoming an empty nester, and giving advice to teenagers. Kelly is the host of the popular podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders.

Hi, Kelly. Welcome to the show. Thanks. Welcome to my show. Yeah. This is a collaborative episode where we're going to just have a conversation. We're both people who have talked to countless other wonderful people. I think you're one of the better interviewers out there, and this is something I pay attention to.

And so we're just going to have a collaborative conversation about the different things that come up. But why don't we start the way this show always starts, which is with the parable. And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, they think about it for a second, they look up at their grandparent, and they say, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that

parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. So I have lots of associations with that. I mean, I rely on thinking fast and slow, the great Daniel Kahneman work as a touch point for me in all my thinking. And so I think about system one and system two. And then I've done lots of episodes with philosophers, like there's this woman at Yale named Tamara Gendler, who goes through the ancient philosophies and what each of them has to teach us about modern happiness. And there's always this desire to come up with a metaphor or a parable that explains our nature to us in a way that's really simple, that there are these two wolves or that there's a elephant and a rider or there's a charioteer and there's two

horses and the one horse is, you know, your desires and impulses and the other horse is your rational mind. And then Kahneman took it to the system one and two. So all of that springs to life for me. And then this other thing that I've said to my kids for a long time when I am listening to them and thinking, oh, you're catastrophizing, is you live in your head. Make it nice in there. You know, almost like decorating a room, like put in a soft rug and give yourself a beanbag chair, put pretty things on the walls. Like that's where you live. That's where it's happening. That's where you're making sense of your identity and your existence and

your relationships. And so just recognize that there's always agency because there's always you at the back of things interpreting events. And that involves a lot of choice. We're not watching a movie of our lives. We're actors in the movie of our lives and we're writers of the movie of our lives and we're the directors and we're the editors. And so it doesn't mean that our lives can defy physics, but it means that we're playing a role in what it feels like to us. So that came to mind, too. What does it mean to you? How do you think about it? Well, I mean, I've thought about it a lot of different ways over reading it all these years.

But I mean, I think in its I engage in and what things I feed myself, you know, physically, but also in what I read and what I watch and what I do. All those things are important. They matter. And I also like it because it makes it sound like this battle is going on inside everybody, which I think normalizes what it's like to be human. Is it? And I also like it because it also sounds like it's kind of close. Like it's not like the, you know, the good wolf is running away with it, you know?

It's like, you know, we're not quite sure what's going to happen here, so. Right, right. It's anybody's, yeah, it's a toss-up. Exactly. Now, I think like all the things that you sort of just mentioned, whether it's Kahneman's system one or two, or Jonathan Haidt's excellent elephant in the rider, and all of these things, they're all models for something that is far more complicated than that. And so this parable is a vast oversimplification of our inner landscape.

Sometimes it might be nice if there were only two things in there going on instead of, you know, a soup of conflicting goals. Yeah, exactly. A veritable Noah's Ark in there. Yeah. I was thinking about how it applies very specifically to a variety of things as well, like to the food you eat, to the media you consume, to the way you set up your social media account. Like you can sort of turn your mind all day long toward vitriol or toward beauty, toward inspiration or toward desperation. I find those little pockets of agency very encouraging. Like I have really tuned my social media feed to something that just brings me reels and reels and reels of wonder. You know, like an elephant

and its baby standing by a tree in the Serengeti away from the sun or a whale that's opening its mouth and all these fish are coming into its mouth and it's like closing in on them. Or a painter, a time capsule type capture of somebody painting something really beautiful. Or ballerinas working together to make this message if you use a drone camera to catch it from overhead. Or little kids dancing to Beyonce. I have created a positive feed by saying yes to all the beauty and wonder feeds and saying no to all the vitriol and superiority feeds. Yeah, I think that speaks to the nature of so many of these things in the world that I think a lot of people want to label as either good or bad and recognizing that they're tools and how do we use these tools wisely in a way that is best for us. There are amazing things we can see on social media. If certain things surface,

I don't use it very much. But today a friend sent me a picture of a Boston Terrier. I love Boston Terriers. I had one until last fall and she passed. And it's Boston Terrier running and jumping on this like inflatable ball and it goes flying through the air. And you're like, this animal is in trouble. And it lands and is back after that ball with not the slightest thought. It's just the most amazing thing to watch. And it just made my whole morning. Right, right. I wonder what that tendency says about us that we want to blame the tool instead of blaming the way we use the tool. Like per your earlier point about this desire to create a binary where something is good or bad, rather than saying like, well, these are the functions of social media and we are using it to good ends or bad ends or varied ends. But when you take that victim mentality, like, oh, it's been laid on us. There's nothing we can do about it. It's ruining everything.

I feel like you're giving away this great opportunity to harness it for your own purposes, you know, and hopefully their good purposes. But I just wonder if you have an opinion about why it's easier to blame the tool than blame the way we use the tool. Well, I think it goes to so many different things where we grasp for easy answers and there usually aren't any. The role of technology in our lives is a very complicated and nuanced issue. And so I think there's some of that. I think there's some degree, like you're saying, of not wanting to take responsibility. I think there are valid criticisms to be made of a system in which young people are growing up within. And the way that our attention is, you know, people are trying to manipulate it for profit. But I agree with you that I think I am a big fan of nuance. And I

actually can tell from your writing that you are also. I've just seen it over and over in your writings and in your conversations, this sense of like, well, not so fast. Like it's a little more complicated than that. And so I think that's what I sense a lot in these technology discussions is people wanting an easy answer. Yeah. You know, it would be nice if we could just blame it all on the tech companies. Well, that's part of the story, but it's certainly not the whole story. Yeah.

And it's kind of like saying like magazines are bad or books are bad. Like that's actually how foolish a statement it is. Because, you know, there's The Economist and there's Hustler and there's Words Illustrated and there's Teen Vogue. And, you know, so, I mean, I guess the distinguishing feature of social media is that there's the user generated content. But again, those are choices that you can make. I mean, I don't follow many friends or peers. So an example that often gets thrown up around social media is, you know, everybody's pretending to have these great lives. And then you get sucked into this idea that everybody's vacation was better.

Everybody's Christmas morning was better. Everybody's running further, exercising more, having more time with their grandparents. But that's completely shutoutable. I mean, you just don't have to use it that way. I mean, you don't have to use it at all. It's not a requirement. Yep. It's not.

I wonder if you have examples at the ready of ways that you feed the right wolf. Like you must have habits of mind and habits of behavior. I mean, I know that you're an addict who's in recovery. And I know that oftentimes people add structures to their lives like meetings or meditation or gratitude journals, et cetera, to ground them in something that represents their values and their sort of deepest desires for their own wellness. I wondered if you had a few off the top of your head that you use to feed the right wolf. Yeah, it's wild that you just use the phrase habits of mind and habits of behavior because I'm working on a book right now. And that's one of the underlying core ideas is that we have both

habits of mind and habits of behavior that we can cultivate and they reinforce each other. For sure. So just to hear you use that phrase, I was like, wow, I was just writing about it yesterday. I mean, I think that, yeah, there are some things for me and some things change over time and some things remain very consistent. As an addict and some of that addiction, I think, was driven by depression, which I've also dealt with over the years. For me, exercise is sort of a non-negotiable for me. Like it just seems to be the, if I could only have one thing that I could use really for even my mental health, it would be exercise. I've used meditation a lot over the years. I think there's a habit of mind in general of trying to not believe my thoughts too much,

or at least like be willing to interrogate them. That sounds harsher than it is, but being willing to question them and being willing to sort of see that everything in many ways is a story. You were referencing this a little bit earlier, right? That there are some things that are factual, right? You and I are on Riverside right now and having a conversation that's fairly factual, right? But the smile on your face, I could be taking three different ways, right? I could be making up all kinds of stories about what that means. And they would all be just that, stories, because I don't know. And so I just think that is a foundational thing for me in a habit of mind is always

looking at that and saying, okay, what am I making this mean? And what else might it mean? You know, or what else could it mean? Are you sure? Are you sure? Yeah. just making shit up like this might really not be nearly as true as you're letting yourself believe it is so it often happens when we're speculating about one of our kids and how they're doing and they live far away from us and we're imagining and then we're starting to attribute motives to various people in the story yeah A boy who we thought liked them and doesn't like them anymore.

Or some girl in her sorority who we've never met. But somehow in the story, we are ascribing motive to all the different characters in this little tale we're telling. Yep. And then the other person is,

we're really trying to train each other to at least both of us not fall for our own nonsense at the same time. So assume that we will continue to make up stories spontaneously and without being conscious of it. But then as the other person's doing it, well, I'll tell you what happened. I mean, when she handed in that paper that time, I'm sure the teacher was like, what are you doing? Why are you at? And then the other person is just supposed to say maybe and it's just a signal that like you're making shit up and you really don't have very much information here at all and then

the other one when it's happening to us when we're telling a story about a problem in our own lives the thing we're trying to practice saying to each other is, are you sure? Are you sure that Tony wants this and Prasanna wants that and Alon wants that? Like, are you sure? I was like, maybe you should just ask. Do you find sometimes that you're fairly invested in a story or an emotion around the story and you hear maybe, or are you sure? And you, you bristle a little little bit or is it something that you sort of right away know what your partner's trying to do there? I don't bristle. Yeah. I don't bristle. I mean, I have a terrible habit. I wonder if you have it at all from podcasting where because, you know, our jobs involve like constant learning and preparing for these conversations and having

these conversations and you meet a lot of people. I mean, I've interviewed probably 700 people now between the PBS show and the podcast and live events. And it has this dangerous potential consequence, which is that you sort of think you know things, you know, you sort of feel like you understand human nature a little bit better because you've interviewed all these people or you understand human relationships because you've interviewed Esther Perel and other famous therapists, or you think that you understand wellness because you've interviewed Francis Collins at the NIH, or you understand spirituality because you interviewed Father Greg Boyle, or you understand music because you interviewed David Byrne. Like, it's a natural outgrowth of being

in this kind of constant learning posture. And I'm an enthusiastic learner. And one of the ways that I learn is I repeat it back. So if I'm reading a book, for sure, Edward, my husband, will feel as though he's reading it as well. Because every time I put it down, I'll say, here's something for you. Listen to this. And when I read the paper in the morning, and when I read Axios in the morning, I'm giving it back to him. And he's like, Kelly, I'm literally reading the exact same thing right this second. I'm like, I know, but I need to say it to own it. Like that's how I internalize a piece of information is I have to say it out loud. I have to pass it along somehow. It's probably why I podcast and write books. And that can dupe you into a state of intellectual arrogance, where you do feel

that when you're listening to a kid tell you a story about something that happened with their friends or at their summer job, that you do have a fairly persuasive to self story about what and why. Because, you know, you're like weaving in a little Esther Perel, you're weaving in a little Francis Collins, and, you know, they're big thinkers. And I mean, I got to talk to Daniel Kahneman before he died. Like, you don't think I was like a totally out of control arrogant after that for a couple days? Like, insufferable. So I don't know what the adage is, but it's something about like a little bit of information is dangerous. Like brushing up against big time thinkers can sometimes have this terrible knock on effect of

you thinking that you really have a handle on something when you probably don't. So when he says maybe, I think, oh, thank you. You listen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh yeah. Although he did just walk in on our podcast recording and and although he's done that before and will do it again, Eric, I do really like and respect the man I'm married to. And so I am sort of inclined to be grateful for his feedback, generally speaking. Not about how I do the dishwasher, but, you know, like important things. I wonder, is there actually an officially right way to load the dishwasher? Because... No, don't even. Don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. You're going to put me in the most foul humor. It is the dumbest argument. We've had it a million times. And yes, of course, there could be a way where you get the maximum number of dishes. That's what he would say. But I roll it up one and say, is that what we're doing in life? Is that our goal right now to get the maximum number of dishes? Or is our goal to have like a peaceful after dinner period of collaborative work in the kitchen so that we can finish up and

go upstairs and lie our bodies down? Is the goal efficiency or is the goal the mood? And I say to you and to all listeners everywhere that the goal is the mood. I agree. Thank you. Thank God I didn't have to hang up on you. You can hear me getting whipped up about it. Yes. No, I'm not going to try and instruct you on the proper way to load the dishwasher. I just find it interesting that everybody thinks there's a proper way. That's all. It's fascinating that we all have a relatively strongly held opinion. Like everything. Don't you think we have strongly held opinions about everything? I think we have a tendency to, yes.

Maybe it feels safer. There's like a safety in it. Sure. A false security, I guess. Yeah. Well, it's nice to feel like you know what's going on and to feel like you have some answers in this chaotic, sometimes frightening, confusing world.

And the other thing is that when you cop to uncertainty and when you like reconnect to intellectual humility, because say your partner said maybe, is then there's not that much to talk about. Like in terms of conversational fodder, which is, this is just like kind of a tactical thing. If you want to have a big, juicy, fast-moving, energetic conversation, you can't really do that unless people have opinions. Yeah.

Because two people who are really steeped in intellectual humility are just going to kind of look at each other without words and say, yeah, it's kind of hard to know. I don't really know what to do about public education in America. Yeah. You know, I don't really know what the cutoff date should be to terminate a pregnancy. Me neither. Kind of hard to say. The conversation would just fall. Yeah. It would just disappear.

And would you say that you're that sort of person or you have lots of opinions? Well, I mean, the thing I have the strongest opinion about is how we shouldn't have strong opinions. Right. So the most animated I get, you're hearing it right now. And this is the kind of thing that it's about. What I feel strongly about is that our nature is driving so much of our interactions in a way that is counterproductive to what we most want and need. Like if let's say that a super need of all mankind is belonging, there's a cheap way to get it. You just put on the same shirt as the other guy, put the same bumper sticker on your car, start screaming and yelling the same things like chanting in a crowd with posters.

And that's very bonding. I mean, you definitely feel that you belong. But it's not really based on you and them. It's not really that you found something, a special and important way to relate to each other. It's that you cheaped out and you went for this. It's, you know, it's just like cheering for a football team. You know, like, are you really connected? Am I really connected to every other Golden State Warriors fan in the United States? A little bit, but not really. I mean, I love that team,

but not as much as I love people who embrace uncertainty. But that's not a team. Hi, everyone. One of the things that I know many of you struggle with is anxiety. And very recently, I shared some tips on managing anxiety in our newsletter. Specifically, I shared a practice on clarifying your values. In the practice, you write down one or two of your core values and then identify one action step that aligns with them. I find that taking one positive action

towards things that matter to me really helps reduce anxiety. Also, I have a reflection question. What positive experiences have you had today that you could focus on instead of your anxiety? Every Wednesday, I send out a newsletter called A Weekly Bite of Wisdom for a Wiser, Happier You. And in it, I give tips and reflections like you just got. And it's an opportunity for you to pause, reflect, and practice. It's a way to stay focused on what's important and meaningful to you.

Each month we focus on a theme. This month's theme is anxiety. And next month we'll be focusing on acceptance. To sign up for these bits of weekly wisdom, go to goodwolf.me slash newsletter. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer.

We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, no, really. Yeah, really. No, really.

Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No, Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You get your podcast. Those things are interesting, right? Because obviously if you're a fan of the Golden State Warriors, you recognize there is a place for that communal experience and pulling for the same team. And that ultimately it really doesn't mean very much. What's the famous joke?

Like it's, you know, like rooting for people who all wear the same clothes. Like I am notoriously bad at having favorite teams in anything because I just am like, well, I mean, I will form an opinion of a group of people and be like, well, that's the team I want to root for based on the people that are in it, not the uniform they're wearing or the traditional, which makes me the absolute classic Fairweather fan. Right, right, right. But like you, nothing really animates me in the same way, except when people think they're certain of something. And then I feel this perverse need to almost argue with them, even if I agree with them. Even if I actually hold their underlying belief, if they hold it too strongly and they're just certain, it just brings up something in me and I find myself wanting to argue against it.

I do this with my partner, Ginny. I have to watch for it because I'm like, okay, that's the wrong approach. Why would you want to do that? But it is sort of a habitual response in me. It's such a turnoff to me. Certainty. Yeah. It's just such a turnoff. It seems unsophisticated.

You know, like when people wag their fingers, I'll tell you what you need to do to fix the transportation in America. And it's like, really? Really? You think there's like a one sentence answer to transportation in America? Like, I just think you sound like a fool or, you know, these, I just know, I guess I'm old enough to know people who have now devoted 30 or 35 years to solving a single kind of societal problem. We know this great woman whose kid used to babysit for us, who's been working on homelessness in the Bay area,

you know, since she was 20 years old and she's 70. Can't figure it out. Yeah. So when you hear somebody on television or at a cocktail party say, I'll tell you what they need to do about homelessness, I think, really? You cannot possibly think that you could solve homelessness. You can't possibly. It's so insulting to this woman that I know who's been on it for 50 years with a big brain and a big heart, and she still can't crack it. Like, don't insult the people who are actually doing the work, these kind of sideline, man-not-in-the-arena people who are so flippant about these massively complex issues. Yeah, it's a huge, huge turnoff. So tell me about what you feed

when you're feeding the wrong wolf and how easy is it for you to catch yourself? Like when was the last time you did something that you were like, that is so antithetical to my actual values and goals in life. I cannot believe I'm doing this again. There's a saying that I've heard in the past and I think about it a lot, which is that the road gets narrower. And what I mean by that is

the things that I used to do, right? I mean, I was a homeless heroin addict at 24 and, you know, just a card-carrying criminal. I mean, I was just not a great person to myself or anybody around me. And so over the years, I think what has happened is that the things that I do that are sort of off the mark, it gets narrower and narrower. And I'm not trying to paint myself as a saint. I'm just saying that I don't very often have huge moments of like, why did I do that? That was so wrong. I would say that my not feeding the good wolf tends to be more these days in omissions versus commissions of things, right?

It's not so much that I blew up at somebody that I shouldn't have. It's that I missed an opportunity to say something that might have deepened the relationship because I was afraid. It's those sort of things. And so I have to hunt a little bit more for them because it's very easy to justify those sort of things also. But I would say that that's probably what it is. It's I'm not doing something that would have been good to do. Or I think I also wrestle with the question that I think everybody probably does to some degree, but you know, how well am I spending my time? Am I using my time to things that I feel like really matter while also recognizing that I can't always be doing things that really matter? Like I just don't have the capacity to do it, right?

And I think as I'm getting older, I'm also learning what does the energy level look like and capacity of me in my early 50s versus me in my early 30s and trying to figure out like, okay, you know, I'm not playing guitar for two hours every night after dinner because I'm frightened of a difficult conversation or I am using my time in a way that I wish I was using to be more creative or more involved in helping someone or that sort of thing. more involved in helping someone or that sort of thing. It's not as exciting as it used to be when I could be like, well, you know, I did three armed robberies last week. I mean, that's a more dramatic story than the one I just told, but that's kind of where I'm at. Well, I mean, hopefully life gets less dramatic as we get older. Yes, yes. Tell me a little bit about your early 20s, me a little bit about your early 20s? How you ended up? Sure. Where you ended up? Yeah. How much repair did you have to do after rupturing what I would assume is just about every important relationship in your life, plus your relationship with yourself, plus your relationship with society? Like that's a lot of breakage. It was a lot of breakage. I mean, there's sort of a long version and a short version of, you know, how I ended up where I ended up. The short version is that I began, like many teenagers, to experiment with drugs and alcohol and from almost the very beginning had a very strange relationship with them. You know, I would do things like people would get together and they would go drink in the night and I would wake up in the morning and see

some of the alcohol left over and be like, well, why not drink that? I didn't do it often, but it was strange, right? I got drunk on mouthwash and, you know, would lead youth church groups that I was involved in, everybody getting drunk on mouthwash. I mean, I was a bad influence from the very beginning. And then in high school, I started a tutoring program for disadvantaged children. And I saw what alcohol and drugs in their family's life was doing. And I was like, okay, I became basically straight edge for a few years. And then I went away on a trip and I came back and my girlfriend was dating my best friend. And I was just in so much pain over that, that somebody offered me a drink and I said, okay. And it was almost as if I was just off to the races after that. I would be exaggerating if I said I didn't draw a sober breath for the next

six years, but not exaggerating by a ton. It was like some switch just flipped. And so it was alcohol and then alcohol led to marijuana, which then led to maybe LSD, which then led to maybe cocaine was showing. I mean, I was capable of abusing any and all of those things. And by the time I was about 22, I played music in bands and I joined a band where I didn't know it at the time. But three of the four people, the other three people in the band besides me, were intravenous heroin users. Wow. And one night somebody said, do you want to try it? You know, I tried it and I snorted it. And just over a relatively quick period of time, I became physically addicted to it.

But I was no more addicted to that than I was to alcohol or marijuana. There's just a physical component to it that's different. And it's a far more expensive habit. And it's a far more expensive habit, at least it was then, than the cheap, you know, mad dog I could drink or whatever. Right. And so that all of a sudden then became about having to get high and get a fix, which led to criminal activity. How much time passed between the first time you did heroin and the second time you did heroin? Maybe a few weeks. And during those few weeks, were you thinking about it? Were you thinking, I'm absolutely going to have to do that again?

I don't think so. I can't recall. I mean, because I would have been like really drunk and high on, you know, marijuana and drinking in between that time frame, right? Right. So it crept up quickly until I do remember one night being like, why do I feel so sick? Why do I feel so lousy? And I was like, holy shit, I have a physical addiction here to this. And sure enough, I went and used the heroin and I felt immediately better. And I was like, oh, how many times do you think you did heroin? Oh, I don't know. I mean, let's let's say I did it for three years, maybe. And I did it, you know, two or three times a day. So I don't know, a thousand. I don't know. I'm not entirely sure. A lot. I mean, enough that I weighed 100 pounds at the time. I had hepatitis C. I mean, I was dying.

I mean, I was in really bad shape. Between that and the fact that when I finally made it to treatment, quote unquote, sort of the last time, you know, I was facing 50 years in potential jail time. And, I mean, things were pretty bad. Who were your closest relationships the first time you did heroin? Or did you not have any? Was that part of it? No, no, I did. I did.

I would say it was a group of friends that I'd been friends with for a few years. But they were people who largely, maybe not to the extent that I did, but were people who were drinking pretty heavily, right? I played rock music in bands, and so I was in that scene and everybody was kind of that way. My close friends were. So nobody would have said, dude, you're out of control. Well, no, people started to. Okay. Even within that group, you know, people would start to be like, whoa, like, yeah. Even among heavy users, they were noticing. Yes. Yes. But that was kind of the case. I feel like, from even very early on in my drinking. Like I was just even around people who partied a fair amount.

There was something. I just had a slightly different gear. Not than all of them, but most of them. Were you always aware of that? Like were you in a tiny conversation with yourself where you would say, this is not the same. We're not having the same experience here. I out of Columbus. This is a problem. Like this isn't working. And so I decided to move in retrospect, a poorly considered decision, but I moved to San Francisco and nothing changed. Right. I mean, I just, what happened is I would come out of blackouts and not know where I was at all. Whereas in Columbus, I'd be like, oh, how did I get here? And, but I would know where I was because I grew up there and San Francisco, I'd come out of a blackout and be like,

I would know where I was because I grew up there. And San Francisco, I'd come out of a blackout and be like, well, I don't have the foggiest idea where I'm at right now. Like, I don't know how to navigate from from where I am. So nothing really changed. Yeah. What's the story with your parents? Um, two parents, upper sort of middle class, you know, white collar background. But they both, I think, had untreated mental illness. background, but they both, I think, had untreated mental illness. My father's manifested as rage and my mother's manifested as a very withdrawn depression. And so I was a troubled child from

very early on. I mean, I was, by the time I was 10, I was a kleptomaniac, right? And so I can look back and be like, okay, something wasn't right, you know, and I can, I can theorize on what those things were. And I've, I know a lot about what things are supposed to happen in childhood and attachment and all of that. And I think I didn't get what I needed developmentally. I don't really have anger at my parents. They were just doing kind of what had been done to them. And they were doing, you know, kind of the best they could in the circumstances. And yet it wasn't kind of what I needed to be a person who felt comfortable in their own skin.

And so what was the turning point? Like, why did you stop? How did you not just do it until you died? It's interesting because, like I said, I'm kind of working on a book. I got a book deal with HarperCollins recently and I'm working on it. So I'm revisiting a lot of this stuff. And the easy version of the story, right, is that I just got arrested at work. Like, I mean, the police came into my place of employment.

I worked in a restaurant and they came in and they arrested me and took me out in handcuffs. And it turns out that where I was working was one of the ways that I was stealing money. And I had been temporarily living in a van that the owner of the restaurant had. And so all of a sudden, all of that was gone. What little bit of home I had, this van was gone. My ability to make the money that was gone. What little bit of home I had, this van was gone. My ability to make the money that I needed. In addition to stealing, I was also working like 16 hours a day to try and keep up with this habit. All of that was gone. And I just went into treatment detox because I was

like, I don't know what else to do right now. I'm going to be very sick and I don't know what to do. And while I was there, they said to me, you should go into long-term treatment. And I said, I don't think so. Cause who knows what possible, what I thought I had to get back to. But then I went back to my room and I had a moment of clarity and I went, you're going to die if you go back out there. By now I knew I had hepatitis C and I just knew like you're either going to go to jail or you're going to die. And so I went to long term treatment, which then led to a halfway house. And that was the turning point. That's the easy version. like I said, since this first move to San Francisco, right? Which would have been preceded by lots of times of me trying to just do less, you know, just don't do it so much. And years of that, right? And so, yeah, there's one moment I can point to that was the moment at which I never

did it again. But that moment was preceded by lots of other little moments and was followed far more importantly by countless other little moments. Right. If we were going to film the movie of my life, there'd be a scene I just told you. But that scene wouldn't mean anything if it weren't for the thousands of little decisions I made day after day after that to get sober. So there's a convenient narrative that you hit a bottom and that's what it is, but it tends to be a little more complicated than that. Isn't that narrative structure so imposing? Totally. What's the nadir? What's the climax? What's the denouement? Love it. Who's the main character?

Who's the hero? Who's the villain? Like, it's just so imposing and it's so easy to look for those beats. I mean, even as I'm asking you questions, I'm sort of asking you to tell me the story in terms of these narrative beats. And that's not, of course, the way it is, because that's the story we love because it has this drama to it. But the stories we live have much less drama. It's, you know, choices and thoughts that you're having every single day. It's feeding the right wolf every day for 20 years. Yes.

But nobody wants to hear that story. You know, the truth of the story is, and then on Tuesday, I woke up and I said, I think I'll walk outside for 10 minutes. And then on Wednesday, I thought, instead of having a drink, I think I'll call my old friend. And then on Thursday, and you would just go on like that for 20 years, itemizing a list of minuscule choices that equal your sobriety, your life. That equal a life of sobriety. Yeah. Yeah. That is the way life is. And we were talking earlier about certainty and believing you can fix things. Early on in my recovery, I believed that now that I had gotten sober and I was in a 12-step program and 12-step programs tend to think they know how to get people sober. And they do know how to get some people sober. You know, I thought I know the answer to addiction. And 30 years on, I feel less equipped over and over and over again to feel like I know what somebody should do to get over addiction. I know what I did. I know what worked for me. I know some things that work. I know some guiding principles that I think are useful, but life is complicated. And addiction is an enormously complicated syndrome.

It is a multi-causal thing. Yes, syndrome is really the right word for it. That really helps broaden your sense of it, you know, that it has all these factors that are interacting with each other, with you and with your environment at all times. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging.

Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, Really. No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you think about what kind of repair has been necessary for you,

repair has been necessary for you? Has there been any particular person or group of people, including potentially yourself, that has been hardest to repair with, hardest to forgive and to be in relationship with? It's interesting because in the 12 steps, right, there are two steps that are all focused on repairing. There's the eighth step, which is you make a list of all people you'd harmed. And the ninth step, you actually go out and try and make amends to those people. So I mean, it's baked into the heart of the program because almost nobody will get to an endear of addiction without having done a lot of rupturing. So yeah, there were a lot of relationships to repair. But a lot of relationships also had to be sort of just let go. I mean, there were certainly a lot of relationships that did not make the transition from my using days

to my sober days. Now, I was fortunate in that a number of people over time started, I'm not saying I was the only one, but there were a few people that started to get sober. And I think a lot of other people were seeing it and going, oh, there's a path. And so it was interesting to see a lot of friends that I was sort of like, well, that friendship is gone, come into recovery. And that was a beautiful thing. So there were obviously crimes I'd committed that I need to make amends for, right? The state had its own ideas of how I was going to make amends for the crimes that I had committed. I was extraordinarily fortunate that I did not go to jail. And that's probably, you could base that 95% probably on privilege. You know, I was given opportunities that most people aren't given. I was given a diversion opportunity where if I

completed all the tenants of this thing they gave me, the multiple felonies would disappear. And I had to do that, right? I mean, I had to go make financial amends. I had to do a huge amount of community service. I had to drug test, you know, drug free for years. I had to see a parole officer. I mean, there were a lot of things I had to do. And if know, drug free for years. I had to see a parole officer. I mean, there were a lot of things I had to do. And if I hadn't, they would have given me sort of a maximum sentence. And I was able to do those things, thankfully. But again, I recognize that I was given a gift there to do that that was probably based to some degree on my background and my color.

Yeah. Yeah. How about to yourself? Like, how do you look at that version of you? Primarily, I feel a lot of self-compassion for that person. You know, that person was in a lot of pain and just did not have any way of coping and existing in the world that wasn't extraordinarily self-destructive. And a few years earlier, I had formed this tutoring program for disadvantaged children. And I was taking high school students from around the area that, you know, tended to be coming from

quote unquote better high schools, right? Higher high schools that you were getting a really good education. We were going into elementary schools that were more disadvantaged and I was organizing all that. And so there was that. And then a few years later, like I'm a completely different person. And so that, yeah, there was a lot of like, that's one repair I can never make is that program that was off to a great start and had this framework that I think could have continued and extended fell apart because I wasn't there to shepherd it through, you know, a couple of years when it would have sort of become self-sustaining. There was no repair for that. And then I guess I should actually say there's like three steps in

12-step programs because there's another step, which is the 10th step, which is continue to take personal inventory. And when we're wrong, we promptly admit it. And that's a big one, right? inventory. And when we're wrong, we promptly admit it. And that's a big one, right? For me is the keeping the street kind of clean as I go, you know, really recognizing when I've been unkind or when I've done something that I don't want to do or fessing up to that and trying to deal with that in real time has stopped me from getting into places where there's been a whole lot more really big ruptures. But I certainly, you know, was out there trying in whatever ways I could to make amends to my parents. You know, I had really good friends at that time that I took really terrible advantage of. You know, I would say things like, I want to go to treatment, but it's a $200

application fee. And, you know, get somebody to give me $200. I mean, I laugh about it, but, you know, and then spend it on drugs, you know, just lots of that kind of stuff, you know, stealing from friends, things that, you know, if I hadn't repaired and if I didn't have a real understanding of the pain that that me was back then, I think I might feel differently. And then there's the fact that I have been able to, because of that addiction, and a commitment to help others who are suffering from it, transform it into something that has been, I would say, a net positive overall. Like if you were to look at the total amount of pain that I caused then versus the

total amount of healing I've been able to be involved in since then with a very conscious effort, it balances the scales a little bit. It doesn't balance it for everybody though. There are certain situations that were not repairable. People who did not want to be repaired. It's not like I was able to repair everything, but if I was to just take a total net good to the world, I feel like that was actually a good overall because I was young enough. Thankfully, I was young enough that I've been able to have all these years in recovery. Yeah. Yeah. So like units of damage versus units of repair, you've crossed over. I believe so. I mean, another analogy is when I was in the halfway house, right? Like I was on disability. I was taking money, you know, from the government and there was money being given

to the halfway house that I was in, you know, like probably Medicaid money and all that. And in the grand scheme of things, in my case, I'm not saying this is the case in everybody's case, but in my case, the government came out way ahead, right? By rehabilitating me at that day and age, I have paid way more in tax dollars over the years than I actually took out, which I think is the way those systems are intended to work. I'm not saying they always do, but sometimes they do. And that's like, as a side note, that's just an important part of the discussion around incarceration, because that can happen. One hundred percent.

That can happen. If we're paying as taxpayers year after year after year to keep people in jail with no hope of rehabilitation, then there's also no hope that they'll become taxpayers. Not only for society does it not ever get to balance out, but for that individual, you don't get the satisfaction of thinking, I'm putting something back in the till. It took a lot and I'm putting a lot back in. And that must be so important to your sense of self and it must be a real foundation to stand on in terms of self-compassion. It's like, I'm just going to keep trying to add to the good. Yeah. So you can't do

that if you're incarcerated. I mean, what good can you do in there? All you can do is... No. It's just such a sin, really. Oh, yeah. My story would probably have been radically different had I been sent to jail, even for a few years. And I'm not saying that there are not situations in which people do need to go to jail. Of course, there are, but are far better off with rehabilitating people and ideally rehabilitating them before we need to rehabilitate them from what has happened to them in prison. Right. I mean, I'm not naive on those fronts, but I do think we've got the balance wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And thanks for letting me ask all those hard questions. Yeah. So can I ask you a few questions? Sure. This quote comes completely out of context, but I have to know, and we can... Can't wait to hear what you're going to say. Go ahead. This is the quote. Is it my quote? Is it something I said?

Yeah. Oh, dear. Something you said. Yeah. Oh, dear. Yeah. So, I don't know what to say about a man who calls a perfectly adorable three-year-old a fucker, but my hero comes to mind. That made me laugh out loud when I read it. And just, I had to be like, what is she talking about? Because again, I'm sure it's from a story somewhere in a book, but it was just the one line. I was like, what? So I had cancer in my thirties. I had a one-year-old and a two-year-old. I was in chemotherapy. My hair had finally started falling out. And so we shaved my head and I stayed home and cried for a couple of days. And

then I felt like maybe I was ready to go out into the world. And my kids were one and three. And so Georgia, my older daughter, was in preschool at the time. And during the early days of my cancer treatment, you know, people drove her everywhere all the time. And so I was feeling like I really wanted to drive carpool and felt like that would be a real victory for me. So I put the scarf on my head and I put on mascara. I still had eyelashes at the time. They fall out too eventually. And I put on my favorite jeans and I called my next door neighbor and I said, I'm going to take the kids to preschool today. And she said, oh, wow, like you don't have to do that. And I said, no, no, I really want to.

You know, I'm ready to like take my look on the road. And then I got Georgia and we went over there. And, you know, you have to take your baby with you wherever you go to. So I got Claire in a diaper and I got Georgia in her little outfit for preschool. And I get them all situated in the car. We go next door and I pick up their kid and she says, come on down, come on down. And this kid looks up at me and says, you look like a monster.

And the mom said, I'm so sorry. He just saw a monstrous ink. And I was like, oh my God, you mean like the one where the person's head is like a giant eyeball? Like that's what I look like to this kid? She didn't make it better, did she? No, she didn't make it better. So then all of a sudden I just got a wave of anxiety and I thought, oh my God, I can't go into a preschool because they don't know, they don't have any context for this and they

could say anything to me. I don't think I'm sturdy enough yet. So I said, I think maybe you should take them in. Here, take my card. I gave her my keys and I went home and I grabbed the phone and I flop sturdy enough yet. So I said, I think maybe you should take him in. Here, take my card. I gave her my keys and I went home. And I grabbed the phone and I flopped on the sofa and I called Edward. And I said, he called me a monster. And Edward said, who did?

And I said, Max next door. And he said, that fucker. And I thought, oh, my God, I've never loved you more that you're going to punch out a three-year-old for hurting your 36-year-old wife's feelings. So that is the origin of that line and that moment. I think a lot about attunement and it's, it's such a hit or miss thing, you know, even when you love people so much and you're trying so hard, you can still just miss the note. And there were a lot of occasions in that year that I was in treatment where Edward picked up the note kind of effortlessly and was right where I wanted him to be. Like if I was in the mood to start Googling stage three cancer life expectancies,

he would do it with me. And if I was in the mood to go on the deck and have a Corona and listen to Bob Marley, he would do it with me. And if I wanted to cancel plans at the last minute, he would do it for me. And in that moment, the way he took my side like that, it was just sort of a heavenly moment of attunement because he could have said, Oh, Kelly, do we really care what a three-year-old said about you? He cared more than I did. He was madder than I was. And so I have a lot of very fond and tender memories from being sick,

and that was what I remember. It's a beautiful story with a very funny line. Yeah. You were talking about how you and your father both had cancer. Uh-huh. And that your dad and mom sort of turned towards God. Yes. And you and Edward turned towards Google.

Yes. And a friend of yours was able to explain the miracle of your father through a rational thing about how the doctor knew these things. And you sort of said, well, you sort of landed on that neither your parents' faith nor the reason of your friend really explained what happened there. Oh, that's interesting. I mean, I remember it was so interesting to me that the first thing my father did when he got diagnosed was the first thing I did. So he went to church and I went to Google. And then when it was all over and both of us survived, his survival a little bit more miraculous than mine. My mom said, oh, there were just so many people praying for your father, as if that explained it. And, you know, that's such a troubling statement

because all kinds of wonderful people die all the time, for whom many people have been praying. Right. And I said, gosh, don't you think it has more to do with these medications that people have labored to develop over time? Like, I really am alive because of a medication. I had stage 3 HER2 new ERPR positive cancer, which is not survivable. That strand was really not survivable 20 years ago. I definitely had been gone. And I had a huge tumor, seven centimeters by four centimeters. So it's just like this big piece of calamari. And then, you know, the free markets and big pharma and some really devoted scientists and chemists and biologists got together and they created a set of medications and surgical procedures and interventions.

And here I am talking to you. And so I tried to put that in front of my dad. And he said, oh, lovey, what do you think makes a person want to work that hard to cure cancer? As if I was missing the most obvious reflection of God in the world. As if I was missing the most obvious reflection of God in the world. He and my mother both have always put a foot in the door for me in terms of faith. Like the door cannot close because of them. It was such a strong part of both their lives.

Central. And a real comfort. It wasn't, they weren't righteous about it. They weren't finger waggy. They did not use it as a weapon against other groups of people. It was like a heated blanket to them. It was like a warm place to rest. But then when we got married, the padre, as my Uncle Jimmy put it, the padre said, life is a mystery to be lived. And then my Uncle Jimmy put his arms around us afterwards at the reception and said, I never heard anything so true in my life.

Life is a mystery to be lived. And so I guess where I came out was that we'll just stay with the mystery on this one. We'll just let it be an unknown. We'll just leave the question mark in place. Back to the lack of certainty. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a real joy in that for me. There's like joy in not knowing. I mean, first of all, I'm not required to know. None of us are.

Yeah. And we are small and there is a lot that we haven't figured out yet. And there's tons of things that we thought were absolutely true over the centuries that are absolutely not true. And so I think best to be humble. Yeah. I'm a longtime Zen practitioner and there's a saying, not knowing is most intimate. And I love that. That's nice. Yeah, that's really nice. I like that. I also love to think about like, what do we all believe to be completely true today? Scientifically, that is completely wrong. I know. Because there's got to be completely true today? Scientifically, that is completely right. Because there's got to be a wide swath of it. I just don't know which

part of it it is, but it's fascinating to think about. Maybe we can wrap up by talking about your recent TED Talk around ordinary moments of bravery. What did you mean, or what do you mean when you use that phrase, ordinary moments of bravery, and why did you want to give a TED Talk on that? Well, the theme of the conference was the brave and the brilliant. And it was clear that there would be tons about AI and space travel and quantum computing. about AI and space travel and quantum computing. And I just felt that someone should stand up and say something about invisible interpersonal bravery. My kids are 21 and almost 23 and I have some very close friends with whom I share a lot and am reciprocated

in their sharing with me. And so I know that every one of us has been put to the test in the most incredible ways where someone comes to you and says, I cut myself. I weigh myself before and after every meal. I steal. I bought a gun. I stopped taking the medication. I'm using again. I hear voices. I mean, these are all true things that have been said to my friends by their children. And if you don't think what happens next is exquisite bravery, you're not paying attention. Because there's so many possible reactions in that moment. And 99% of them are wrong. Wrong as in damaging.

Or at a minimum, unproductive. And I think to be brave in the face of such high stakes, that it's just nothing that you'll care about more than these people and their well-being. And you're so electrified with adrenaline and anxiety. I mean, I don't know what the cocktail is that's flowing through your body in that moment, but I'm going to say it's as strong as heroin. Like there have been moments where a kid has looked at me and said something and I have been in a completely different physical state. And yet you're still required to put a expression on your face, shift your posture and say the right thing. And I was positing in the TED talk that the right thing is tell me more what else go on, that there's just these seven words that you can turn to every single time. Because I think what's

behind them is, I don't think this is so easy that I can solve it in a sentence. I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm not going to dive in and be the hero. I'm not afraid of what you're going to tell me next. I can withstand this in its entirety. I don't think everybody does that. I think most people either leave one way or the other. They take the phone call. They go to the bathroom. They say they have to work. They have an early flight. They somehow wind down the conversation. So that's like one way that people miss their opportunity for bravery. And then the other way is that they become the hero. They say, you know what? Here's what we're going to do. We're going to call this person and that person. And if they don't answer, we're going to call this person. And the next

thing we know, I'm going to take you in that car and we're going to put you in that rehab and we're going to pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And the bravery that I was trying to elevate was really born out of total intellectual humility, which is, oh my God, I wouldn't dream of trying to solve this. I don't think I could. I don't think it's my job and I don't think I could. And rather I'm communicating that I don't need to take over, that I believe that you will solve it, and that my only work here is to facilitate your discovery of the whole story. Tell me more. What else? Go on. And it was very satisfying to give it to that audience because the conference starts on a Monday and I didn't go until Thursday night. So it was basically like the last thing that happened before the big dance party. And as I predicted, there was a really big emphasis on

AI and space travel. And here I was talking about this HI, human intelligence, or EI, emotional intelligence. And then we went straight to the dance party and just, I just hugged 150 strangers. Like people would just point at me and come up and we'd just hug. And it was too loud to talk. And I knew what they were feeling and I knew what I was feeling. And we just would jump around and hug. And then the next total stranger would come up, the same thing would happen. And so I felt certain after it was done that I had said something that felt true to other people as well. And just kind of an under-acknowledged fact. Yeah, I watched it and I love it. I love the core idea of ordinary bravery because I do think that the number of beautiful, selfless, caring, loving things that happen in the world over and over and over, day after day after day, there are so many of them. And like you're saying, there are these moments. You find out your father has Alzheimer's or your partner's mother has Alzheimer's.

These moments, they do take a bravery. And you said earlier it's required to sit down and do that. But actually, it's not required. And as you said, most people don't. It's a very conscious choice to stay in it with people. And I thought the talk really spoke to that beautifully. Yeah. There's all these movies where the most devastating scene is a person trying to unburden themselves and the other person rejecting the moment.

We were rewatching Succession and Kendall, this kid, tries to unburden himself to his mother. And she says, oh, is this going to be difficult? Let's do it in the morning. And then when he wakes up, there's just a note that says, I'm so sorry, I had to go. Maybe we'll talk about that later. Or like Ordinary People, which was the searing movie in my childhood and maybe yours too, where Mary Tyler Moore plays this just unapproachable mother. And this poor kid, Timothy Hutton, is trying to say what hurts and she just can't do it. And when you watch a scene like that or you see one unfold on the pages of a book, because that's the only time you're going to see it, you won't be able to witness it otherwise. You'd have to be a fly on the wall in somebody else's house. But when you see these play out in fiction, I just don't think there's anything more devastating

than that micro-rejection of like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to talk about this. Tell me more. What else? Go on. That's right. All day long. I think it's a great place for us to wrap up. Fantastic. So good to talk to you.

Thanks for asking to do this. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, Kelly. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed

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