The One You Feed - Gretchen Rubin on Living Skillfully

Episode Date: February 11, 2020

Gretchen Rubin is one of today’s most influential and thought-provoking observers of happiness and human nature. Gretchen is known for her ability to distill and convey complex ideas with humor and clarity in a way that’s accessible to a wide audience. She is the author of many books which have sold over 3.5 million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages. She also has an award-winning podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. In this episode, Eric and Gretchen talk about how being strategic and smart about the ways we approach our habits and behavior can radically impact our likelihood of success.Need help with completing your goals in 2020? The One You Feed Transformation Program can help you accomplish your goals this year.But wait – there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you!In This Interview, Gretchen Rubin and I Discuss Living Skillfully and…How feeding our bad wolf can feel easier sometimesHow not eating sugar actually makes her feel betterAbstainers and ModeratorsTrying different approaches until you find the one that works for youDecision fatigueThe 4 Tendencies Model: the way people respond to expectationsUpholder, Questioner, Obliger, RebelKnowing your tendency type can help your tailor your approach and be more successful at living skillfully.Where personality comes fromHow much people can realistically change in lifeWhat and how much is really in our controlThe 21 Strategies of Habit ChangeHow cravings inevitably come and go (rather than the myth that they build and build until they overwhelm us)Accepting yourself AND expecting more from yourselfSkillshare is an online learning community that helps you get better on your creative journey. They have thousands of inspiring classes for creative and curious people. Get 2 FREE months of premium membership at www.skillshare.com/feed  Remrise is a personalized sleep solution that uses natural, plant-based formulas to help calm the mind, relax the body and get your circadian rhythm back on track. It’s drug-free and has no groggy side effects in the morning. To get 25% off your first month, go to www.getremrise.com/wolf and take their sleep quiz to determine which formulation is right for you. Phlur: Get a luxurious scent made with transparent, clean ingredients. Eric created his own sampler set that you can try! Get this curated sampler set or create your own. Get 20% off your first Phlur sampler set at www.phlur.com/wolfGretchen Rubin Links:gretchenrubin.comTwitterInstagramFacebookIf you enjoyed this conversation with Gretchen Rubin on Living Skillfully, you might also enjoy these other episodes:Ruth WhippmanJonathan RauchSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Well, if it worked for that person, it should work for me. Well, maybe, maybe not. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to

make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer.

Go to reallyknoworeally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions, the podcast where boundaries are pushed

and conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, Weezy WTF, and me, Mandy B, as we dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday and Wednesday, we both invite you to unlearn the outdated

narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. Tune in and join in the conversation. Listen to Decisions Decisions on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Gretchen Rubin, one of today's most influential and thought-provoking observers of happiness and human nature. Gretchen is known for her ability to distill and convey complex ideas with humor and clarity in a way that's accessible to a wide audience.

She's the author of many books, which have sold over 3.5 million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages. She also has an award-winning podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. Hi, Gretchen. Welcome to the show. I'm so happy to be talking to you today. It's a pleasure to have you on. You've written a lot of wonderful books. You've got a wonderful podcast, and we'll be getting into all those things here shortly, but let's start like we always do with the parable. There is a grandmother who's talking with her grandson, and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.

One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second and he looks up at his grandmother and he says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in It can kind of give you that quick hit. And sometimes the things that will make us happy over the long term are more demanding and they may require us to do things that feel like a deprivation or feel like an imposition or take some more self-mastery. So the two wolves are not equal in their accessibility to us. They're both in there, but it's easier to get to one wolf than the other. Yeah, boy, that is true sometimes, isn't it? That one of them is certainly easier than the other. You've got some different things you call secrets of adulthood, and one of the things that I love is make sure the things we do to make ourselves feel better don't make us feel worse.

Yeah, I quit sugar, which people are like, how in the world could you quit sugar? And what's the use of life without a brownie? And I say, not eating sugar makes me so much happier than eating sugar ever did. And yeah, it tastes good right now, but then I'm just in that cycle of craving and do I want more? And it's just this boring noise in my head. And when I gave up sugar, I was just like, wow, now it's just gone. It's like wonderful. And so I realized I thought it was making me feel good, but in the end it was making me feel bad. Yeah. There's lots of things that are like that. And that is a great segue into one of the things I wanted to ask you about, because you've talked in the past about abstainers and moderators. So tell me just a little bit about that. And then I've got a couple questions more specifically related to that.

Yes. Well, when I was writing my book Better Than Before, which is all about the 21 strategies we can use to break our habits, one of the things I realized is that a lot of times people are like, well, this is the right way to change a habit or this is the best way. What I found is really there's a lot of variety in what works for people. It's not the case that this is the best way. What I found is really, there's a lot of variety in what works for people. It's not the case that there's one best way. It's what way works for you. And I found that when it comes to facing a strong temptation, not a weak temptation, a strong temptation, people divide into abstainers and moderators. So abstainers are people who find it easier to give things up

altogether. They're kind of all or nothing types. And it's like me, I can have no thin mint cookies. I can have a sleeve of thin mint cookies. I can't have two thin mint cookies. I can't have half a dish of ice cream. I can't have a brownie bite without really wanting more and more and more. But if I have none, that's pretty easy for me. But then moderators, they get kind of panicky and rebellious if they're told they can't have anything. They want to have a little bit or they want to have it sometimes. They want to have a few French fries. And these are the people that keep the bar of fine chocolate in their desk drawer. And they're like, every day or so, I just have one square of fine chocolate and that's all I need. And I'm like, I couldn't do that.

My whole day would be one square, two squares, three squares. Now, later, it's my birthday. It's raining. I deserve it. I'm like, I might as well eat the whole thing at 8 a.m. because otherwise, it's just going to distract me the whole day. And what's interesting is that a lot of us are a mix in our approach. I can be a moderator about wine because I don't care about wine, but I have a friend who's like, I can have no wine or I can have four glasses of wine.

See, I can have half a glass of wine and she can't because I'm not strongly tempted by it. But what's interesting is a lot of times people will tell somebody, well, you're doing it wrong. People will say to me, it's not healthy to be so rigid. You shouldn't demonize a certain food. You shouldn't be so rigid. It's not healthy to say no to yourself. You should follow the 80-20 rule. Even when I say, but this is what works for me. This makes me happier. This is how I can handle this in a way that works for me. And then I want to say to moderators, why do you keep breaking the rules? Why don't you just go cold turkey? Why are you going back and forth between this? Because to me, it feels like, why are you even in this zone? Get out of this zone. But for them, that's a much better approach.

And so part of it is realizing what works for you might not work for someone else or what works for someone else might not work for you. I think sometimes we blame ourselves when we struggle and someone else has success instead of thinking, well, maybe I need to try a different approach, we think, well, maybe I need to turn into a different kind of person. Yeah, I think that's so true about it being different for everybody. If there's anything I've learned from coaching so many people over the years is that same thing doesn't work for everyone. And if you just have one solution and, you know, it's interesting because I'm a big believer in sort of the middle way. Like, you know, I'm a big believer in moderation and a lot of things, but I'm also an alcoholic and a heroin addict. And so it's like, there are some things in life that I'm like,

moderation really works for me. And then there's a couple other pretty important ones that it's like, nope, I have to be an abstainer there. It's the only way that's ever worked for me. So I love the fact that you identify that people can be a moderator in one area and an abstainer there. It's the only way that's ever worked for me. And so I love the fact that you identify that people can be a moderator in one area and an abstainer in the other and that we're just not all the same. Well, it's interesting that you mentioned because I think with alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes, people accept that some people can't have a little bit. They kind of embrace the idea that some people just have to give something up altogether and that you sort of have to organize your life around that because it's just not acceptable to have a little bit. It just doesn't work.

But with things like sugar, people really often feel like, well, that's not right. That isn't a right belief. You should be moderate, even though I'm saying it doesn't work for me. I'm not saying that it's the same thing, but I'm saying just the ease with which I can go through life is very much the same. And somebody said to me, well, the thing about sugar with food is an alcoholic can give up alcohol, but I can't give up food. And I was like, an alcoholic doesn't give up water. They're not drinking alcohol. They're not drinking. And you can still eat and not eat junk food or not eat processed food or whatever the rule it is that you want. There's more possibilities because I think sometimes people do get locked into this should work for me and I need to just keep doing it over and over and over again, even if it's not working, instead of saying, well, let me try a different way. And I think that's so important because what happens when we keep trying the same thing over and over and over again in the same way is we come to the conclusion that we are somehow broken or bad or can't do it instead of going, oh, maybe my approach isn't what's working.

Absolutely. And it's very poignant for people to say, I have no willpower. I have no self-control. I can't keep my promises to myself. Instead of thinking, well, let me just set this up in a different way. It's kind of, I think a lot of time, and maybe you see this in coaching, when people have a strong model in their life of somebody who did it and had success, they kind of are like, well, if it worked for that person, it should work for me. Well, maybe, maybe not. Just the fact that like your husband did something one way doesn't mean it's going to work for you. Yeah. And that's what I like about different aspects of your work. We'll talk about the four tendencies here in a minute.

You know, these different sort of types, the way we respond to expectation, you know, abstainers versus moderators. You talk often about paradoxes, you know, how these two things happen to be true. about paradoxes, you know, how these two things happen to be true. And I think that's just so important is to see like, again, there are some principles that can be generally helpful, but not for everybody. And the last thing I'll say on abstainers versus moderators, and you'll probably relate with this is I often say, you know, there's just beautiful clarity in none. Yes. Beautifully put. Yeah. There's no debate. There's nothing that has to be figured out. It's just none. Well, and one of the things that's very true is we're very susceptible to decision fatigue. And this is why you see like Barack Obama wearing the same few suits or, you know, people having work wardrobes or people eating the same lunch every day is that every little decision that we make

takes something out of us. So moderation requires decision-making because it's like, when am I being moderate? When am I having too much? What is too much? Moderation, of course, is relative. So what you think of as moderate is also relative to who you surround yourself with. So how do you think about that? There's a lot of mental processing, whereas you're right. With none, it's just totally clear. Totally clear. There's no decision. And then that willpower doesn't have to engage. Wonderful. Well, let's move into your four tendencies model. The four tendencies basically is you say people respond to expectations differently. Would that be the best way to phrase that? Yes. It sounds so boring, but it ends up being really juicy.

Yeah. Well, let's jump into it. Tell me a little bit more. Yeah. So we all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, which is like a work deadline or request from a friend, and then inner expectations, which is like my own desire to keep a New Year's resolution or my own desire to get back into meditation. And depending on how we respond to outer and inner expectations, we're either an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel. And I'll quickly define them. And almost always people know exactly what they are, plus like different characters from Game of Thrones and like everybody else in their life, their kids, their coworkers.

But there is a quiz. If you like to take a quiz and have an answer spit out at you, some people do. There's a quiz at quiz.gretchenrubin.com, and two and a half million people have taken it. It's quick and free, and it will give you an answer. But like I say, most people can just tell from this description. So questioners are people who readily meet inner and outer expectations. So they meet the New Year's resolution and they meet the work deadline without much fuss.

They want to know what other people expect from them and they want to meet those expectations. But their expectations for themselves are just as important. So their motto is discipline is my freedom. Then there are questioners and questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. They resist anything arbitrary, ineffective, unjustified. They're always looking for reasons. If something satisfies their inner demands for justification, they will do it no problem. They will have no problem following through. If it fails their inner standard, they will resist. So their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. And obligers readily meet outer expectations, but

they struggle to meet inner expectations. So I got my first insight into the four tendencies when a friend said to me, I don't understand it. I know I'm happier when I exercise. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? Well, why? It's the same person. It's the same behavior. At one time it was effortless. Now she can't do it. So what it is, is the expectation. When she had a team and a coach expecting her to show up, she could go. But when she's trying to go on her own, it's a challenge. So the important thing for obligers to realize, and this is where coaches come in, this is why coaches are so valuable for obligers,

is if there is an inner expectation to be met, there must be a form of outer accountability. If I want to read a book, I need to join a book group. If I want to exercise, I need to work out with a trainer or take a class or work out with a friend who's going to be annoyed if I don't show up. I need outer accountability. So their motto is, you can count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me. And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They will do anything they want to do. They can do anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically they don't tell themselves what to

do. Like they don't sign up for a 10 a.m. yoga class on Saturday because they're like, I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that somebody is expecting me to show up is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me and neither can I. So those are the four. And they're not the same number. The biggest tendency for both men and women is obliger. The smallest tendency, it's conspicuous, but small is rebel. And then my tendency, the upholder tendency is only slightly larger. So rebel is the smallest and obliger is the largest. And so let's walk through each of those just a little bit more how to kind of work with those. So, so an upholder is somebody who meets internal and external. So that sounds perfect. Like, okay, I will, I will do that. But obviously nothing is perfect. No type is better than another type.

So let's talk about what, if people are an upholder, is important for them to know. You're exactly right. Each of these has strengths and weaknesses. Each has people who are wildly successful and also big losers. And the strengths are the weaknesses, you know, as so often happens. So the strengths of the upholder, they're great at execution. They're self-starters. They don't need supervision. They're great at following through, but they can be rigid. They get an idea in their head of how things are supposed to go. It's very hard for them to be

flexible. They can be cold because it's like, oh, hey, the reports are due on Friday and you're asking me if I can proofread your report, but you know, I can't do that because my report's due too and I don't have time to help you out. To an upholder, that seems appropriate. Inner expectations must be met. Yeah, we've got companies staying with us this weekend, but I'm training for the marathon, so I got to go for a 15-mile run on Saturday. So that's just going to happen. And so that can seem cold. And they can sometimes be judgmental because they don't understand why others struggle in situations where an upholder would not struggle. If you get upholders together, they will often start talking like, why can't other people just get their stuff done? This idea of understanding changing circumstances, needing to be flexible,

needing to work in situations where it's not clear what success looks like or where it's ambiguous what the rules are, they can really struggle in those kinds of environments. One of the things that I often see in a lot of clients is it's sort of the all or nothing mindset. Like I need to exercise an hour a day. And if I can't exercise an hour a day, then I just say F it and I don't do anything. Would that fall into an upholder? Or do you see that sort of strain of perfectionism really running through all the groups? Well, that is a fascinating question. I think that probably you would see less of that in upholders, because upholders would kind of build that in. That's the kind of thing they're sort of

good at dealing with. But that is something that many people struggle with. It's sort of the don't break the chain. And then if the chain is broken, it's like, okay, well, this is just ruined. Yeah, so I think that that is something where you sort of have to deal with it as a separate threat. But probably upholders might struggle with that less than others, in fact. Yeah, I just tend to see that sort of rigidness, right? Because what I've discovered about keeping certain habits going over a long period of time is it takes a certain amount of stubbornness and a certain amount of

flexibility. Well, see, this is what's interesting. So the rigidity for the upholder is what others perceive. I'm an upholder. I don't perceive myself as rigid at all. I feel free. And that's hard for people who aren't upholders to understand is how free we feel. We feel so free because we can do what we put our minds to. We keep our promises to ourself. But from the outside, it looks rigid because they're like, it's scary to me how much you stick to that. And it's like it doesn't feel scary from the inside. I have a friend who's an upholder and she went to the gym like 360 days in a year.

And to me, I'm like, that's cool. And other people were like, that's sick. Really? People said that to me. And I'm like, there's nothing sick about it. It's not easy. But the rigidity is really how others perceive or like when like you're changing the schedule on me. Well, I was going to work from three to five and now you're telling me that I can't. But interestingly, when they did research on social media, what they found is that people with high conscientiousness, which is upholders, were actually had a very high use of words like leisure and weekend. Because one of the things upholders tend to be good at is building in what they need to do to execute. So they will say, I need a day off. I feel like

my knee is weakening. To stay the course, I need to not train for three days. They're sort of good at drawing those boundaries and giving themselves leisure and rest. They might put it on the calendar, like I'll put on the calendar, I'm going to read on the sofa for two hours on Saturday. But it's still leisure to me, but it's scheduled. I have to schedule time to goof off. That looks rigid, but it feels free. So they're often good. Obligers are the ones who really struggle with feeling like everyone's pushing me around and I can't push back. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth.

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Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed

Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's talk about questioners. So as you said, questioners are the people who they're not going to do anything just because someone told them to. Yes. And one of the ironies, I thought, in what you wrote is that questioners hate being questioned.

Yes. Yeah, I'm married to a questioner. and this is like a huge relief to me to realize that this was not just him constantly jerking my chain. It's ironic, as everybody comments, it's ironic that questioners don't like to answer questions, but it is a very common kind of pattern that you see among questioners, which is very funny. Yeah. Right. And so what sort of things do questioners need to know or what sort of things help them to be better at changing and sticking to habits? But questioners need to really feel the confidence that you're the authority that I trust. This is the best and most efficient course to take. This is customized to what I need.

Questioners love to customize. Once they're clear, then their actions follow. But if they're kind of thinking, well, should I be doing high intensity weight training or should I be doing cardio? And like, is it really more important to do CrossFit or would I be better off doing something outside? When they haven't really made up their minds, it's like they often don't move forward. So for them, clarity is really important. You're my doctor and you're telling me what to do. Do I really believe in you? Because if I don't believe in you, I'm probably not going to do what you say. It's not enough for me that you're a doctor. I need to trust your authority. And that's a high bar for many questioners. Questioners sometimes suffer from analysis paralysis because their desire for

perfect information makes it hard for them to move forward or to make a decision. And I mean, I know two people who are questioners who are married and they were trying to buy a new dishwasher and it took 18 months because anytime one of them was like, what about this? The other one would be like, but what about that? And what about this? And if we're going to put in a new dishwasher, maybe we should put in new countertops. And it was just like they spiraled out of control. So questioners need to learn how to manage that need, that desire for just more and more and more research. it allows them to like monitor or like step count or track their food or their spending. They tend to do very well with things like that. They can, in some circumstances, seem draining and overwhelming because it's like, oh my gosh, everybody else has heard enough in the meeting and you're still asking questions. So they need to be aware of that.

And they also need to be aware that sometimes their questions can make others feel defensive or attacked. So it's like, if I'm a thin-skinned boss and you keep asking me questions, I might feel like, well, you're not a team player and you don't trust my authority. And I don't understand why you're not just following what I say. But of course, the questioner, they're like, well, the idea that this is what corporate says to do, or this is what you're telling me to do, or this is what we've always done, that's totally illegitimate to me. I'm not going to do it because of that. So we have to recognize that questioners need answers to their questions. This comes up a lot with children. Children will say things like, why do I need to memorize the multiplication

tables if I can just look it up on a calculator? Well, they need an answer to that. Why do they? Because if you don't give them an answer, they're not going to want to do it. And if you explain to them why this is really important, then they'll do it. But they need to have that answer. So would that mean that people might move through different being an upholder, a questioner, a bliger throughout life? Because it does seem that a lot of children are naturally questioners. It isn't the case that we're one at 10 and one at 40 or one at work and one at home. I am a big

believer in the genetic roots of personality. I think these really are hardwired to you. And when you hear questions, like little kids ask questions like, why is the sky blue? Their question is, why should I? You know, you're telling me I can't drive barefoot. Why can't I? And then also people will say, well, little kids are all rebels or all teenagers are rebels. It's like they really aren't. If you know what it's like when somebody is like why coaching is so crucial for a huge percentage of people and why it can be a game changer because it represents outer accountability. So obligers, they're the folks who need outer accountability to meet outer and inner expectations. And this is why a lot of people, they're like very puzzled because they're like, well,

at work, I never miss a deadline. I never let down my team. But then at home, I can't go running. I'm not making my bed every morning or whatever it is that I'm trying to do. And so what is necessary is outer accountability. And you see this a lot when people go freelance or like, I know a lot of journalists who then go on book leave. A writer might think, oh, I have writer's block. And I'm like, no, when you were working for a newspaper, you had an editor and a deadline and group of people holding you accountable. But now that you're writing a book on your own, no one's looking over your shoulder. And so you're just kind of spinning your wheels.

And what you need is outer accountability. So join a writer's group or get a coach or tell your agent that you will email her a chapter every four weeks. And if you don't hand it in, she's like, where's that chapter? I was planning to read it this weekend, and now you screwed up my schedule. That's what can really work for obligers. And it's really remarkable to see how, for so many obligers, this is like the light bulb that lets them have massive change in their life. Because a lot of times, obligers are like, I need to learn to put myself first. I need to get clear on my priorities. I need to get more motivated. That's really a bad direction. You can't expect to be motivated by motivation.

And so obligers will try to whip themselves into a frenzy of desire. And then they can't understand why that doesn't turn into action and it just doesn't turn into action unless there's a form of outer accountability. Great. And then finally rebels. So rebels resist all expectations and so it's very exciting to be with rebels because they're very authentic. They know exactly what they want to do. They can flout convention. They love thinking outside the box but it's hard to live or work with people who, if you ask or tell them to do something, are very likely to resist. So the key for rebels is to remember, for rebels themselves, if they're trying to get themselves to do something or someone else, is one is a key value for rebels is identity. So you're doing this not because the doctor told you to or not because I told you to or not because you know you should or not even because you said you would. You're exercising because you're an athlete. You love to move your body. You love to be outside. You love that feeling of being alive and vital. You're doing it because you're an athlete. these mandatory 10 a.m. staff meetings on Wednesday that you don't go to. Let me tell you what happens at those meetings.

We look at all the upcoming projects and the people who are at the meeting grab the good ones, the interesting ones, and we leave the boring ones for the people who skip the meeting. So the meeting is at 10 a.m. on Wednesday. It's up to you, man, because you can go or not go. But it's also important if you're dealing with a rebel, don't rescue them because then there's no negative consequences. They have to be allowed to experience negative consequences. And don't remind them or try to nudge them or encourage them because every time you nudge them, you ignite the spirit of resistance. So the best thing to do with a rebel is give them information consequences choice and then back away. And that is easier said than done,

especially with children. But the more you remind, the more you ignite the spirit of resistance. Yeah, it's funny. When I look at these four tendencies, I feel like I do with a lot of personality types or tests that I take, which is I feel like I'm like 25% in each camp. I seem to, when I take these tests, I seem to fall right in the middle. Did you take the quiz? I did. Did it give you a questioner? It gave me a bliger.

Well, that's interesting because I would have predicted a bliger because you're a coach and coaches are often obligers because they think everybody's like that. Doesn't everybody need utter accountability? But questioners often feel like they're a little bit of everything because they'll say, well, if something makes no sense, I'll refuse to do it like a rebel. But if it makes sense, I'll do it like an upholder. And I'm like, yeah, but you're saying, why would I? And that's questioner. So how do you feel about New Year's resolutions?

If they make sense to me, I'm on board with them. How do you feel about the fact about making them on January 1st? I think it's a useful time for reflection, but I'm not dead set on it. I'll make a resolution anytime. Okay. I think you are a questioner. I would say you are a questioner. Yeah. It's funny because if I look at different periods of my life, I seem to, you know, there's certainly periods in my life where I was a rebel. Like I'm not doing anything that anybody tells me to do, including myself.

Questioner, it's often like, well, I'm not going to do it because that doesn't make any sense. Or why would I do that? I'm not going to go to college. Why would I go to college? It looks like a rebel action. But the rebel is saying, I'm not going to college because you're telling me to go to college. The questioner is saying, why would I go to college? I have to go for, you know, it doesn't make sense to me. If it made sense, I would do it.

But why am I going to waste my time and my energy? Yeah, and I love what you said at one point. And I think this is always so important with personality tests. It's not about pigeonholing people into limiting categories. It's providing insight. I'm always interested in personality tests because there's one part of me that's like, I think there's insight and I learned something about myself. And I also don't want to only sort of take on this more limited identity. Exactly. I totally agree. And I also think that one of the things that's nice about the four tendencies is it can save people energy and time. Because let's say you're trying to exercise just because that's such a common thing. It's like, if I know what tendency you are, I could be much more strategic in telling you what I think is going to work for you. There's a million bazillion ways that a person could try to get themselves to

exercise. What do I think is going to work for you? And that can save you time and energy and to kind of unlock that so much more quickly for you instead of just throwing spaghetti against the wall. And often, people will say you're doing it wrong because to me as an upholder, what you're doing seems like I'll say, I don't want to be your babysitter. Why don't you just do your own work in your own way? Well, that's very bad advice for an obliger. It's great advice for an upholder. That's my advice to me, but it's not good advice for you.

And sometimes it's counterproductive. Obligers need outer accountability. Rebels don't do well with outer accountability. They don't want someone looking over their shoulder. They don't want check-ins and monitoring. So if you have a debiliter and a rebel, you're going to be like, okay, we need to go in very different directions here because you're coming from such different perspectives. Again, it's not that one way is right or better. It's just that when we know what you are, we can tailor it to what is going to be successful. I want to back up to something

you sort of said in passing as we were going through these, and you said, I'm a big believer in the genetic-based personality idea. Tell me a little bit more about that, because I'm not sure I share that perspective, but I'd love to hear your perspective on it. Yeah, I think a lot of personality is inborn. And of course, it's shaped by our culture and our personal circumstances and our environment. And even before we're born, of course, epigenetics is this fascinating new study of like how our surroundings and our environment affect us even before we make our first appearance in the world. You know, I do think a lot of things are hardwired and that one way or another certain things come out. You know, that one way or another, certain things come out. I've been in a polder since as far back as I was me. Everyone in my life would say, yes, you are a little Hermione Granger type personality.

I don't think that wasn't the way my parents raised me. It was part of what I brought into the world. Now, of course, then there's that feedback because the way that I am affects the way people treat me. And if you're a questioner and you're born in North Korea, of course, you're going to shut that down. And if you're a questioner in Silicon Valley, that might be your greatest asset. So it's not like there's no influence, but I do think a lot of these things are part of what we bring into the world, many aspects of our nature. Well, I think it's interesting because in one of your books, it might've been your first book about happiness. You referenced the studies that sort of say, hey, you know, current thinking about happiness

says that 50% of it is, I don't remember the exact numbers, 50% is genetic. Some other, you know, part is this and then 20% is... Life circumstances. Yeah. Yeah. With his age, health, occupation, marital status, all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think, you know, I always, with all these debates, like, is it genetic? Is it environment? Is it, I think it's, you know, the unquestionable answer is it's all of them. And it's just, you know, what's useful is what levers can I actually pull? Exactly. The question is, given the place in which I've been placed by providence, how can I move forward in the way that's right for me? Yeah. Given my life situation, given my inborn personality, given whatever I've learned from life, which might be good, might be bad, what can I do? សូវាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប� I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast,

our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts?

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app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. That raises a broader question of how much can people change? And I think this is a fascinating question because I'm an example of pretty dramatic change. And I'll give this as an example because I was reflecting on it recently. At 24, I got sober and I was a heroin addict. And at that time in my life, I would have done nearly anything to get my hands on drugs. And I do mean I think I would have done nearly anything. Luckily, I didn't have to. And then this spring and summer, my mom fell and was in a lot of pain. And for four or five months, every week, I went to the grocery and I picked up a bottle of Percocet or stronger pills, and I carried them to her and I just gave them to her and it didn't trouble me at all. And when I sort of reflected back on that, like, wow, that's a long way. If you told me that that was ever possible, I would have said, no way. Maybe I could deliver them to her, but it would be really hard. And the truth was, I barely thought about it.

So that's like one. Now, again, addiction is kind of a narrow lens on change, but I do find it just it's one of those questions that fascinates me all the time. How much are we able to change and what can we change? I mean, that is the million dollar question. That is the fascinating question. And I got an email. I wish I had saved it because I'm haunted by it. I got an email from a woman. She described her life and how there was many, many things in her life that were not going right. And she said, every night I go to bed and pray that tomorrow will be different and that things will change. And I was just like, they're not going to change that way. You know,

it's like, you have to think about how can I be the instrument of change or like, you know, it's not something that's going to magically happen one morning if you just want it badly enough. There has to be action. And to me, I guess that's what's most interesting to me is we can think about all we want, but what is the action? Because action is concrete. Action I can do. I can't get to my mind. Like people are like, how can I become more optimistic? I'm like, I have no idea. I ignore everything that happens in the skull. Because who knows? Don't talk to me about dopamine. I don't know. But our actions, we can affect our actions. And so to me, when I think about change, I'm very focused on the concrete action that people could take in the hopes of achieving an aim. Because that's the

thing that we can most readily control. It's within our grasp. I agree. I use a phrase often, I don't know where I picked it up, but that listeners of the show have heard it a thousand times, which is sometimes I can't think my way into right action. I have to act my way into right thinking. Oh, that's so brilliant. That's so true. Wait, say it again. Sometimes I can't think my way into into right action i have to act my way into right thinking so true and so much easier yeah so much easier to control our conscious thoughts and actions our conscious actions they can control our conscious and unconscious thoughts that's really hard you know it's like take the easy road me, it's like, okay, if you know you're going to be happier if

you exercise, I would focus all my attention on like, how can I go for a 20-minute walk a day instead of being like, how do I make myself into the kind of person who just effortlessly loves to run? It's like, can you do that? I don't know if you can do that. Sounds hard. Right, right. And you can certainly, I think, momentum and variety of different things help with all that, but I'm with you. And then I sort of see this on a spectrum, and I'd be curious to kind of get your thoughts. On one hand, we've got thoughts, we've got emotions, and we've got behavior, right? And behavior is the easiest lever to pull, right? And emotion seems to be like completely, you know, encased in stone. You can't get to it. And then thoughts to me seem to be sort of in the middle.

Like I can't stop what thoughts come because like I just, if you meditate, you realize that in like two minutes, like, oh my God. But I do have some ability to say, okay, here this thought came, what am I going to do with it? Am I going to engage it? Am I going to move on? You know, to use the addiction process again, I was talking with somebody about this recently. I said, well, the one thing I've never allowed myself to do is I've never allowed, when the thought has come about using, I've never toyed with it. I changed the channel. I, you know, I have to, I may have to change that channel 75 times. So again, I can't stop it from coming. And so it seems like behavior is easiest, emotions impossible, and thoughts are kind

of in the middle. You know, and this reminds me, like I was saying better than before, I talk about the 21 strategies of habit change. And one of the strategies is the strategy of distraction. And I think distraction now has this very negative overtone because we think of ourselves as being distracted or like being distracted from what's important by our social media or whatever. But you're talking about a

purposeful, mindful kind of distraction, which is, as you say, change the channel. You are choosing the channel. You have a lot of control about what's on that TV screen. And maybe you need to get up and turn on your favorite song, or maybe you need to go outside, or maybe you need to play with your dog, or maybe you need to call a friend, but there's ways we can intervene to just to use distraction as a powerful and helpful tool. I mean, this is, I mean, talking about addiction with craving, one of the things they find is that people think that cravings build and build and build and then overwhelm us. But at least with like kind of sugar cravings or that kind of thing, you've got them and then they kind of go away.

They don't last that long. And if you distract yourself, yeah, it's fine. But sometimes people are like, oh, well now it's like now that I've got the thought of ice cream, it's like I can't. I'm just stuck here until I eat, go to the kitchen and eat like an entire carton of ice cream because it's like that thought is in my mind. You can change the channel. Obviously, with something like heroin, that's a much, much, much bigger deal. You're mindfully doing that. Yeah.

And the principle is the same. And I agree with you about distraction. I do think like for a lot of us, there is an almost, you know, pathological distraction that we live our lives in. But, but I often, you know, I, I end up working with a lot of people who are dealing with the variety of troublesome thought patterns. Right. And, you know, I'm like, well, here's three healthy things

you can try doing. And if those three healthy things don't work, you know what? Do anything else except ruminate on that thought more. Do anything except strengthen that pathway. And I noticed that in your work and it was one of the other things that was on my list to talk about,

because I agree. I don't think distraction is always bad. I mean, it's like everything, it's a good servant and a bad master. So when you feel like you're mindfully using it as a tool to fill your mind with the thoughts that you want, then it's good. If you feel like you're being hijacked by Instagram and like, now you can't like think a thought or have a conversation with your kids because your phone is calling to you. Then you feel like, OK, it's the boss. And that's a bad feeling.

So there's many things. And if you have that feeling that it's like, OK, we'll turn off your notifications and turn your phone to grayscale and put your phone on a shelf in a behind a closed door. Like there's a million things you can do once you realize that's the problem. But I think the real issue, and this is implicit in what you were saying, is that when we feel passive, like this is happening to me, what are you going to do? Then we have no recourse. But when we say, I am the boss here, this is my mind, what will I do to direct my mind along the path that I want and that is going to make me happier and healthier? Well, we are the boss. And it's easier said than done. Like all this stuff,

it's easier to, it's easy to talk about it. It's very hard to do it. So this is why you need a lot of strategies and tips about, well, go listen to some great music and dance around the kitchen or, you know, whatever it might be, take a shower, blast the music. you know, whatever it might be. Take a shower, blast the music. I can almost never overestimate the value of music, at least for me, in being a healing thing. You probably knew this. I only realized this recently, is that music releases dopamine in the brain. And so it seems to me that it would be a very good counter to any kind of craving, because if what you're needing is like a hit, listening to one of your favorite songs gives you that hit, gives you that

feeling of pleasure and satisfaction. Yeah. I've said before, there's few types of therapy that are as good for me as loud music sometimes. Like sometimes it's just the right thing, better than what else I've got. Well, I think now this is one of the things where like new technology has been really helpful is people talk all the time about their playlists that they have made. And people used to make mixtapes and stuff like that but now the technology makes it so much easier to have like your psych up tape and your your you know contemplative tape and you know people have these their go-to if they need to kind of invoke a certain mood they can pick and choose the music that is going to get them into that place right away and i think that's a wonder i am not a big

music person myself so it's not something that I enjoy doing, but I certainly see so many people around me like really using this in a powerful way and it's free. And it's like, this is great. Yeah. No, I talk about that a lot because for me, I know music is one of those things that helps. And I'm also a person who deals with depression and I know that music helps with depression. The challenge for me is that if I'm depressed and I go, should I listen to music? I go, no. And should I then remember that? Yes, I should listen to music. I'll open up my music and I'll go, do I want to listen to that? No, no, no, no. Cause nothing sounds good. So I have a playlist that I know, like just go to that playlist, hit shuffle, turn it up, and it's got

a decent chance of helping. And you talk a lot about this, about you decide ahead of time. So what's the name of your playlist? It's just called Positive. That's good. Kind of boring. I like that. Oh, good. Yes, that's a great idea. So we're nearing the end of our time. I just want to hit a couple of your secrets of adulthood on the way out because some of these are so great. And one just really hit me recently because, well, it's just something that's been

going on in my life. And you say, if you're too tired to do anything except watch TV or cruise the internet, go to sleep. Yes. Right. We've all been there. Yeah. Yeah. No, I find myself laying in bed at the end of the night, kind of wasting time. And if you ask me, I'm like, well, I'm too tired to do anything else. But it occurs to me like, go to sleep. And so, you know, for me, I've been doing sort of a January where it's like the phone is not in the bedroom. And this is recognizing this truth as part of the thing that helped me to be like, get it out of here. Yeah. More sleep. If you need it, it's like it is the, be like, get it out of here. Yeah. More sleep. If you need it, it's the elixir of life.

Yes. And so you've got a variety of these. You say that the opposite of a great truth is also true. And I kind of want to talk about that real quick because one of these that you use, and I love this, is accept yourself and expect more from yourself. So tell me a little bit about that. How do you do both those things? Well, you know, I think that's the great tension within kind of the challenge of a happy life, because on the one hand, we do want to accept ourselves and admit kind of our basic nature and not to constantly wish that we were different or fight against something that's just sort of part of who we are. But then at the same time, you don't want to just throw up your hands and be like, well, here, this is the way I am. There's no way to change. We really do want to expect more from ourselves. But I think for each person, only I can be the judge of what that means

for me to accept myself or to expect more for myself. And like an example from my own life is I'm a really fearful driver. My sister is too. My sister lives in LA, so she has to drive all the time. Fortunately, I live in New York City, so I don't have to drive very much. But in a way, that's bad because I can go a really, really long time without driving. And my fear of driving kind of got bigger and bigger. And now I really have to force myself every time I'm in a situation where I can drive. Once I'm driving, I'm fine, but I dread driving. And I'm like, should I just accept myself and say, hey, Gretchen, you're just a person who doesn't drive? And I'm like, no, this is a place where I can really expect more for myself. I know how to drive. I've been driving since I was 16 years old. I can expect this of myself, even though it kind

of fills me with a sort of dread. For someone else, they might think about that in a different way. And people have all different kinds of struggles. Public speaking, is this something that I'm going to expect from myself, or am I going to be like, public speaking's not my bag? Different people would have different decisions about that. That very idea has been something I've talked about on the show so many times and asked so many people about, which is like this fundamental sort of, like you said, a tension that sits there between like striving and growing and changing and being who we are. And it's, you know, I'm a, I've been a student of Buddhism for a long time and a very

simplified explanation of Buddhism. And it is vast oversimplification as well. You, you struggle because you want things right. And that yet I look at the universe and I'm like, well, the universe just seems to be constantly more, more, more. And so I've always felt that tension. And I think the answer for me, and the reason I don't ask the question as often anymore, but I kind of came up against it right in your work was that, well, it's really both. And like you said, I have to figure that out for myself. And it's not even always the same line, even with the same thing for me, but I just have to do that out for myself. And it's not even always the same line, even with the same thing for me, but I just have to do that. But if I get too far to either side of that, I find myself in trouble. A question that sometimes is helpful, like in that place of

tension where you said where it really can be very hard to tell like which is the way to think about something is the idea to choose the bigger life. Because for everyone, the bigger life looks different. And I remember when my family was deciding whether to get a dog, I had a list of pros and cons. I was pretty anti-dog. Everybody else was very pro-dog. And I felt like it was very balanced pros and cons. And so how do you make a decision? And then I thought, well, choose the bigger life. And I instantly knew that the bigger life for my family was to get a dog. That made it very clear. And I instantly knew that the bigger life for my family was to get a dog. That made it very clear. And I think sometimes people are like, okay, you have an opportunity to moderate at this conference. You can moderate a panel.

You feel really nervous about it. There's reasons to do it. Maybe there's reasons not to do it. Maybe it would consume so much energy and time that you would be better spent doing other things. You can play out the pros and cons. But then if you said choose the bigger life, I think for some people, they'd be like, you know, the bigger life is to let go of the idea of moderating.

That is just not my way. For me, the bigger life is to do the amazing presentation or to do the slides or to plan the networking event or whatever. And someone else would be like, choose the bigger life. I got to moderate this thing. I want to get up front. I want to get the mic in my hand. That's the bigger life for me.

So sometimes that question like clarifies because it's like only you know what the bigger life is for you. I absolutely love that. It's a different way of saying something that I can't remember who, who said it, but was like, you know, about a choice is, does this, does this expand me or contract me? Right. Exactly. But I like, is it a bigger life as a real simplifying question? I think that's a wonderful idea. Well, I think that's a great place for us to wrap up. So, thank you so much for coming on. I've really enjoyed talking with you. Well, thank you so much. I feel like we could talk for a long time. We're interested in all the same things. We sure are. We sure are. And we'll have links in the show notes to your books,

as well as your wonderful podcast. Terrific. Thanks so much. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over to oneyoufeed.net slash support. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. together our mission on the really no really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor what's in the museum of failure and does your dog truly love you we have the answer go to really no really.com and register to win 500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions, the podcast where boundaries are pushed and conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, Weezy WTF, and me, Mandy B,

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