The One You Feed - Grounded in Gratitude: Life Lessons from Great Minds

Episode Date: November 29, 2024

In this special episode on gratitude, you’ll hear life lessons from the great minds of Dr. Nicole LePera, AJ Jacobs, Martha Beck, Susan Cain, and Cory Allen. Throughout these conversations, we explore practical ways to incorporate gratitude into our daily lives, overcome common obstacles to feeling grateful, and use gratitude to enhance our relationships and overall well-being. You’ll find a fresh perspective on gratitude, moving beyond simple platitudes to explore how we can cultivate a deeper, more meaningful sense of appreciation in our lives. Key Takeaways: Grasping the power of gratitude when grounded in the present moment Practicing detailed expressions of gratitude to deepen our appreciation Balancing gratitude with acknowledgment of life’s challenges is crucial Cultivating wonder that naturally lead to feelings of gratitude Viewing gratitude as a state of being, rather than just a tool, to provide a solid foundation for navigating life’s ups and downs Feeling overwhelmed by holiday stress or the pressure to make everything perfect? Or maybe it’s the loneliness this season can bring. Either way, you’re not alone—and this year can be different. Join us for a free online webinar on Sunday, December 10, at 12 PM Eastern to learn a simple habit that can help you let go of stress and find peace, steadiness, and genuine connection. Give yourself this gift of support and clarity for the season. Sign up here. For full show notes, click here! Connect with the show: Follow us on YouTube: @TheOneYouFeedPod Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Follow us on Instagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Are you feeling stressed about the holidays? The pressure to make everything perfect? The tricky family gatherings? Trying to keep everybody happy? And for some of you, it's the opposite. It's the feeling of being alone. Either way, it's a lot. So if you're feeling overwhelmed, know that many others feel the same way. But this year can be different. Join me and the One You Feed community for a free online event on December 10th at 12 p.m. Eastern. You'll learn a simple wise habit that can help you let go of holiday stress and find more peace, steadiness, and real connection. Picture yourself getting through

this season feeling grounded, present, and clear without all the pressure to be perfect. Give yourself this free gift of support, learning, and genuine connection with others who get it. Sign up now at oneufeed.net slash holiday. If you're unable to attend live, we'll be sending the video to people who have registered. So go to oneufeed.net slash holiday and change the way you experience the holidays. So many of us don't live in the present moment and can't feel grateful for what's available because we're focusing on how much we wish it wasn't the case right here, right now. When we can sit in radical acceptance of what is here now, when we can maybe change the way we're filtering, giving ourself the opportunity to possibly springboard us into a future that's

different. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast.

Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everyone. I am doing the intro this week instead of Christopher because this is a special episode of the One You Feed podcast. We've done these in the past, and what we do is talk to some of our favorite people about one single topic. And the topic we're going to explore in this episode is gratitude. For those of you in the States, you know it's Thanksgiving week, at least if you're listening to this right when it comes out. So gratitude is top of mind for many of us. But even more than that, this topic is really important because it is one of the most impactful practices that we can use to meaningfully improve

the way we experience our lives. But very often we struggle to make it a regular practice. So why is that? And what can we do about it? And why should we try or even care? I'll explore these questions and more with our guests Martha Beck, A.J. Jacobs, Dr. Nicole Lepera, Susan Cain, and Corey Allen. I really hope you enjoy it. Now, on to this special episode all about gratitude. Up first on the gratitude episode, from theholisticpsychologist.com, Dr. Nicole Lepera. What does gratitude mean to you? I think the most simple definition that I like to offer for gratitude is acknowledgement of what is. Being, I think, fully present and being very intentional about adding this step in. I think

a lot of times when we think of gratitude, it's feeling grateful, appreciative, or some version of appreciation for something we have or, and or receiving the appreciation from someone or something for some aspect of us. I think what is really important, in my opinion, to incorporate into the definition of gratitude is that presence around what is not in judgment, not in criticism around just the pure objectivity of what is present here and now. And the reason why I'm emphasizing that in particular is so many of us aren't living in the present moment. We're recycling past moments, past trauma that lives in our mind and body and that is coloring our experience, our interpretation

of what may or may not be present or limitations that may or may not be here, right here, right now. However, again, it's a remnant of our past. So grounding ourself in the present moment objectively around what is, and then allowing us to expand into that feeling of appreciation, I think is how I operationally kind of talk about the embodiment of the practice of gratitude, which I believe is foundationally important in healing. So what are some of the practices for gratitude that you most recommend for people? I think there's a lot of different ways we can practice that acknowledgement. I'm just, again, highlighting the first aspect of that, which is becoming conscious even to the present moment, to what is here available, you know, what the reality of it is.

And that happens when we activate our conscious awareness, when we tune into not the stories in our mind, not to rehashing things that happened weeks ago, years ago, not to worrying about tomorrow where most of us spend our time, to be grounded and present to what is, to turning our focus onto our physical body, to extending it out into the external environment, seeing for ourself things that are present here and now. That is how we become available into what is here and now. And then of course, if we want to add in the appreciation, people have had success with journaling, listing things that we're grateful for. For me, even just acknowledging its presence can be so incredibly

healing for all of us that are coloring the present moment with our past experiences, because so many of us are filtering out the reality of what's here based, again, because of those past filters that we've been applying. So that means becoming active, becoming present, maybe even verbally stating for ourself or writing in the notebook things that are present in each given moment. And that can help us activate that feeling of appreciation because appreciation can only happen if we're aware of something that is there. Well, that's interesting because normally gratitude, the way it is done is very often not a present moment thing. I'm grateful for the coffee I had this morning. I'm grateful for the herons I saw land on the lake this afternoon, where what you're saying

is coming present. So is it your belief that if we were to be able to come to the present moment without the heavy conditioning of the past, without everything else, that in that contact in the present moment as it is, a feeling of gratitude would naturally emerge? I think a feeling of connection and presence with that moment emerges, the awareness of what is available. Because oftentimes when we want to practice gratitude, typically it's because we're so focused on what's not present, what we don't yet have, what we want to be the case, right? And when we can become present to what is here, I think we can open up our filter and see all of the different maybe needs that we

do have consistently, or at least in this moment being met, the space that we actually are, you know, choosing to inhabit in this moment. I think that we most often do have available something, right, that is actionable, right? Some need that has safety or we even have a house, a roof over our head, right? These are small things that I think aren't small and that we so typically overlook because we've become so familiar with those being part of our present existence. Yet we diminish and instead of focusing on what we have here, we tend to highlight what isn't yet here. Yeah. I've been doing a lot of reading about the psychological research on gratitude and it's clear that one of its really salient features is the ability to almost counteract hedonic adaptation, right? The

adaptation meaning we just take for granted what we're used to and gratitude being a way of actually not taking things for granted, of being a way of connecting the fact that like, well, what would it be like if this thing wasn't here? Okay, now I can get back to appreciating what I already do have, which really does seem to be one of the keys to a happy life is to appreciate what we have, spend more energy there than on what we don't have. Right. When we free up the energy of focusing on what's not yet present, we're actually then saving, conserving the energy to create change in that direction,

should we choose. So many of us expend so much energy. When we were recording the previous podcast, we were talking a little bit about autopilot and how that actually conserves caloric energy for our brain, how we do prefer to just cruise into that familiar, accepting things just as they are without thinking about them. Because physiologically, actually, there's a benefit of doing that in terms of the caloric intake with my brain already needing the most of it. So again, it allows us to be present, to see the things that we've become unconscious to as a way to oftentimes conserve energy. And when we have that then energy back, not spinning around, wishing, hoping, now we can use that energy to

being grounded in the present and to actually creating the steps in that direction. So what do you do in your own life? Do you consciously practice gratitude in any sort of consistent way or is it just become part of your orientation? For you, how does it operationalize? So two ways. I think my most consistent practice of gratitude is staying really grounded and connected to the present moment, coming to the awareness of how disconnected I had spent the large majority of my life. That is a daily habit and practice, always checking into where is my attention, always pulling it back, always being observant of what is here, what is now.

I think that's kind of the most number one foundational aspect of gratitude that I integrate into my day to day. And then there's a more kind of acute moment by moment. And I give myself the opportunity for me, it's a shift in thinking or language around. So typically when I don't want to do something, you know, I have an event, an opportunity, something coming up, a project, right? A have to, if you will. I tend to, you know, roll my eyes, wish I didn't have to focus all of my internal monologuing on how much I shouldn't maybe have to do, right? This thing, we talked about taxes when we recorded a podcast, right? I don't want to do this thing. Language right now, I'm shifting. The shift I offer myself is I'm grateful for the

opportunity to do my taxes so I can have a thriving business. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation, right? Connected to what my intention is so that the message gets out there. I'm grateful for whatever event I don't want to do because this might take me one step closer to this goal I have for my future. I'm grateful for the opportunity. I sometimes even just use that even not being specific on what it is, shifting again that internal monologue. Because again, so many of us don't live in the present moment and can't feel grateful for what's available because we're focusing on how much we wish it wasn't the case right here, right now. When we can sit in radical acceptance of what is here now, when we can maybe change the way we're filtering, giving ourself the opportunity

to possibly springboard us into a future that's different. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking a couple minutes to talk with us about gratitude. I am grateful that you did. I'm grateful for the opportunity. Up next is journalist, lecturer, and author of four New York Times bestsellers, A.J. Jacobs. Why don't you just take the can story kind of from the top? Sure. I know this is themed to Thanksgiving, and I wrote an article a couple of years ago about how I'm trying to make Thanksgiving a little more creative and stretch our gratitude muscles on. And one thing I noticed was that the can, you know, we have canned pumpkin pie filling.

We should make it ourselves, but we don't. And I noticed that the cans have little ridges on the side, and I looked it up, and those ridges are not there by accident. Someone came up with that idea because it makes the cans harder to dent. So thank you to the engineer who came up with the idea to have little ridges on the side of cans. Something totally never thought about, something I completely took for granted, something you'd never notice unless you thought about it. That is a great one.

The numbers of those things are really endless, the things to be grateful for. And as I've looked into gratitude a little bit more preparing for this episode and some different things, one of the things that gratitude researchers think gratitude can be really helpful for is to forestall hedonic adaptation to some degree, right? Which is basically the fact that we do take everything for granted. So your health, you could wait till it's gone, and then you will wish you had it again, right? But by practicing gratitude is a way of actually sort of not taking things for granted. And the number of things that, at least in my life, I take for granted is stunning. at least in my life, I take for granted is stunning.

Right. Yes, that is a real danger, the hedonic treadmill. And you think, oh, I'll be happy when I get X, you get X. Ten minutes later, you'll be, well, I'll really be happy when I get Y, you get Y, and then it goes on and on. And the way I've found to battle it is through gratitude and through listing, almost cataloging all of the things that I do have. So again, it's an active discipline. The classic writing five things down. I do it with my mom. We trade emails every morning of something that we're grateful for. So yeah, that is, for me, the only way to battle that evil hedonic

adaptation. Yeah, I loved that idea that you and your mom exchange a thing every day that you're grateful for. That's such a lovely practice. And how much better to be able to share gratitude with someone than just do it on our own. And I will tell you, it's challenging because I have a rule with myself. I don't want to repeat. So I don't want to say I'm grateful for my dog, even though I love my dog. So I have to come up with a new one every day. And it gets harder and harder, but it's good. It is a good exercise. Are you able to repeat with variation? Because one of the other things that I've seen, as I've, again, I've looked at gratitude, is that specificity can be really helpful. So it's one thing to say, I'm grateful for my dog.

It's another thing to say, I'm grateful for when my dog does that really cute thing where she buries her head in the pillow and shakes her butt around or whatever. Like, so are you allowed to repeat as long as you're reflecting on a different aspect or once you've thanked your wife, it's over? No, what you said, I love. The more specific, the better. And yes, I can be thankful for different parts. Well, not different parts. That sounded weird. But different aspects of my dog, the cuddling or the playfulness. And what you said, and I have a section in my book about writing thank you notes.

And I found, at least for me, the most effective were really getting specific. I remember I wrote a thank you note to the people who are inspectors on the farms and they have to spend all their time outdoors. And I could have just said thank you for being out there and inspecting the coffee farms. But I tried to picture what their life was like. You know, I thank you for putting up with the mosquitoes that I'm sure you have to put up. Thank you for baking in the hot sun. And the more specific I think is better for both parties because you get a little more empathy and then they're like, well, you put some thought into it. Well, I think that is a great place to wrap up. Thank you so much for coming on. Like I said,

I really did enjoy the book. You're an outstanding writer. And thank you. It's been fun. Well, thank you, Eric. And thank you to your producer, of course. And thank you to the people who made your microphone, etc, etc. And Riverside.fm. Yeah, this could go on a long time. And Riverside.fm. Yeah, this could go on a long time. Up next is author, speaker, and founder of the Wayfinder Life Coach Training Program, Martha Beck. Hi, Martha. Welcome to our special gratitude episode. Thank you so much, Eric. I am grateful to be here. I am grateful that you agreed to be here.

You know, maybe let's just start off by getting right into it. What does gratitude mean to you and why is it important to you? You know, I honestly came to it first through my brain. I was trained in social science, and I was also pretty depressed in my early life. So I read that gratitude was really good for you. It wasn't that I was never grateful for anything. But when I began reading the positive psychology on gratitude, it had such a massive impact on people's health, their relationships, everything like that. And I thought, I've got to find a way to get into this. And I tried to fake it. And it didn't work. And I've coached people who've tried to fake it. And I will tell you this, if you're afraid, or if you're depressed, the first thing you have to do is express love to

yourself, to the part of you that is depressed or anxious, and just say it like, you'll be okay, I'm right here with you, you can feel whatever you're feeling. And immediately those parts will flood you with gratitude for having been noticed, for having been loved. So for me, gratitude starts with self-compassion. And if you're having trouble or if you're forcing it, it doesn't work. But if you love the parts of you that aren't feeling grateful, they are so grateful to be loved that it will fill you up. Yeah. You wrote somewhere that it's not just the appreciation that we feel that makes gratitude good, but it's the release of all other thoughts and feelings, right? So it's in essence, when we move into a grateful feeling by the nature of the thing itself, other things have to fall away.

So it strikes me that that is one of the real problems with gratitude practice. At least for me, it does get dry sometimes where I'm like sort of going through the motions. Now, I still think it's valuable for me to go through the motions because there is at least an orientation that makes me start looking for gratitude more. It's kind of like, you know, sometimes I don't want to exercise, but I do. But at the same time, just rotely writing down three things you're grateful for day after day after day with no feeling isn't really going to give us what we want. And I think for a lot of people, that's why the practice ends. Because doing it that way isn't really giving us the enormous benefits that we can get from gratitude.

Right. And I tried it the same way you're describing, just writing it down by rote and not getting there with the genuine sensation of it. So along with loving the parts of you that aren't grateful, the thing that works best for me if I want to get into that state is to move it into my sensory mind. So do something that gratifies your senses. And I will tell you my favorite thing. It's embarrassing, but I'll tell you. I like to get in bed, king-size bed. Doesn't have to be king-size, but I'm really grateful that it is, because when no one's there, I get in my pajamas, I get in bed, and I just roll and roll and roll. I just roll around.

And it's like if your whole body is immersed in this procedure, you don't stay in the tension that you're in most of the time. So anything you love with your senses, add it all together. Put on something fuzzy. Get something that's tasty. And treat yourself well physically. And again, this simple animal body will flood you with gratitude. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of people who study gratitude and talk about gratitude. They really emphasize savoring things. We have to stay a little bit longer with the experience that's

enjoyable, go deeper into it with all of our senses as much as we can. Not only does it make it better then, but it's actually going to make it better when we look back on it and reflect on it as a grateful moment later. It's going into it as much as we can. That's really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because as I was sort of getting ready to come on, I thought, you know, all my gratitude practices are very simple and very physical. And I remember being in Africa on safari and being very close to these wild animals, which I love, and being so excited and trying to grasp the experience, right? Like instead of being grateful, I was actually anxious that it was about

to end. And when I take other people, they get the same way, oh, it's going to end. And the way I tell people to come down from that is to start doing really, really long exhales. Because that's something a fleeing animal never does. And so it brings the brain down. It takes it out of fight or flight, which is that grasping feeling. And I just tell them just breathe and breathe and breathe. And when I breathe consciously, it is like that experience with that animal lives inside me all the time. And it's the same thing with a child or with a wonderful experience of any kind. Breathe into it, breathe it in and then breathe all the way out. I think it actually does something in the brain where it codes it in there more deeply.

That's really interesting. Yeah, I have really had to work with myself over the years. You know, two days into a vacation, I start counting how many days I have left and dreading it, you know, and I've really had to learn to be like,, smell, feel with my skin, and then just really, really focus on that. So yeah, anything that takes you to the right side of your brain, which is breathing, sensory experience, comfort, love, all of those things will allow gratitude to emerge naturally and stay longer. Yeah, another practice that you write about is something you were trying out for a while called the three to one gratitude practice. Can you share a little bit about that? I think I'm so grateful that you read that because I probably wrote it during an all nighter that I've forgotten about.

But what I what I would guess I said is that every time I have an experience that is unpleasant and I'm thinking, why did that happen? I switch and think of three things that have happened that are good, sometimes connected to the same event, sometimes that just happened unrelated to that in the same day. But it takes those three things because we have a negativity bias in our brains that has evolved there. We actually have to push a little harder to get into the positive side of our emotions than into the negative. emotions than into the negative. We slide into the negative.

We sort of have to bring ourselves back to the positive. So that's why I do three appreciation and gratitude moments for every moment that I'm being obnoxious and ungrateful. I think that's a great practice. It makes me think of the researcher on couples, John Gottman, who's done so much research. And he came up with a ratio of positive to negative. And based on his research, this is the ratio he came up with. Again, who cares if it's three to one, five to one, four to one, right?

But for every negative interaction that occurs in a relationship, you need five positive ones for that relationship to really thrive. And most people in their relationships and relationships I've been in before, before I was with Ginny were almost the exact opposite, right? It was really almost five negative things to one. And it's no wonder that those relationships were disastrous. Or maybe they were disastrous already and you had less to be grateful for. Who can tell? Who can tell? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. and you had less to be grateful for, who can tell? Who can tell?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's so interesting because I've noticed in our family, maybe because of my son who has Down syndrome, there is more thank you being said in our house than I ever remember in any other house that I've been in. Like, thank you for picking up my fork off the floor. Thank you for, oh my gosh, you were so amazing. Like everything gets thanked out loud. Yeah. And I think it got even more during the floor. Thank you for, oh my gosh, you were so amazing. Like everything gets thanked out loud. And I think it got even more during the pandemic. There's such an intense circle of thank yous in our little hideaway from the pandemic that it kind of almost created this

vortex of gratitude. And I don't know, I actually felt strange feeling so grateful at a time when so many people were having a rough time. And then I would just be so much more grateful that that was happening. Yeah, that's a rabbit hole. We do not have time to go down. But boy, is it an important one. Us two here with Ginny and I, it's just a very conscious, you know, thanking for kind of all sorts of things, just being appreciative of what the other person brings to the relationship, what the other person does around the house. When I taught at Omega last weekend, it won't be last weekend for listeners, one of the new spiritual habits we unveiled was gratitude. And I read a study that said, division of labor among couples is obviously important, right? Who does what? But there also seems to be a lot of research that shows, in addition, it's really important that you are appreciating what the other person is doing.

You're actually thanking them for that. And there's a lot of other research about how gratitude in a relationship just creates this cycle that gets stronger and stronger. If you feel grateful and express gratitude to the other person, well, now they feel better. So they're going to act more warm to you. They're going to do something that, well, now they feel better. So they're going to act more warm to you. They're going to do something that's going to make you feel more grateful. And the more grateful you are, the more you want to invest in that relationship. And it's just this cycle that gets rolling. Yeah. I wrote about this in my book about my son when he was

about five. I had three kids at the time and all of them were allowed to open one Christmas present on Christmas Eve. And my girls opened their presents, and they were like, oh, that's nice. It's not quite what I wanted, but it'll do. Then Adam opened his present, and someone had given him an automatic toy with batteries, but they wrapped the batteries separately. So what he opened was a package of batteries. And I thought, oh, no. I was like, oh, honey, that's not the real present. And he was like, batteries. Oh, my God, batteries. And I thought, oh no. I was like, oh honey, that's not the real president. He was like, batteries. Oh my God, batteries. I mean, he didn't say, oh my God, but he was like, oh my God,

batteries, batteries, batteries. And he started running around the house going, I could make it work this and I could make it work this and I could work that. He was like insane with delight and gratitude for having these batteries. And that is why we give him stuff. It really showed me how much that genuine, thrilled expression of gratitude makes you just want to throw more stuff at the person. It's powerful. It really is. I think, you know, so much of what limits gratitude in some of us is expectation or entitlement. Wow. Yeah. We think that what we're getting is what we deserve or what we are owed, or we know it's coming and we should get it. And I was reflecting on this something recently where

a really good thing happened, but it was a good thing that I knew was going to happen for a while. And when it happened, I just was strangely sort of like, so I had to cultivate really going back to where did this come from? What was life like before this? You know, it's that old, it's paraphrased much better than this, but you know, be thankful because you're the person that your old self wanted to be, or you have the things that your old self was wishing for. That's really true. And I also think that we get that kind of experience when we have been building towards something that isn't a was wishing for. That's really true. And I also think that we get that kind of experience when we have been building towards something

that isn't a soul level desire. So it's society level desire. It's what we've been told will make us happy. We'll achieve something. We'll have a certain financial level or whatever. And those are really important. But when we get them, and I see this with clients all the time,

there's no sense of satisfaction because the only sense of satisfaction comes from the soul level, which is when you yearned for something, and then it came. And then it was like the relationships in my life, it is like rain on drought every day, all day, year after year after year, just like so much gratitude. The other stuff that I've got because I tried really hard and they told me that going on Oprah would make me happy. I'm very, very grateful to have done that. But afterwards I was like, that's not really landing. When Oprah read one of my books and really, really got it, it landed. Like I didn't want

the bells and whistles. What I wanted was the connection of souls. So I would tell people, give yourself a break if something doesn't explode your mind with gratitude, but then look at what your soul has asked for and what it's created and look back on the things you yearn for. And even if it's just like I was really cold and now I have a warm bed, go back to the times when your soul was yearning and then just revel. I call it time travel. Go back to the one who was yearning for this thing. Yes. And just roll, roll, roll around a warm bed and just say, oh, thank God I'm not still stuck on that broken ski lift or whatever it was. And that kind of time travel and the yearning of the soul, those are two things that really make my gratitude practice sort of sharper.

Well, I think that's a beautiful place to wrap up because we are back to rolling around in a big bed where we started, kind of. So, Eric, I'm going to take that recording of you saying that, and I'm going to play it for everyone, and they can just make their own conclusions. They were rolling around in a big bed where we started. Me and Eric Zimmer, there's some gratitude coming at you. Thank you, Martha. Thank you so much, Eric. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by.

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or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Number four on our gratitude episode is speaker and author of many books, such as Quiet Power and Bittersweet, Susan Cain. Hi, Susan. It's so nice to talk with you again. Hey, Eric. So good to be back here with you. I've been enjoying our correspondence in between interviews about Leonard Cohen. That's always nice to get your emails. Yes, me too. And I'm so happy to talk to you again so soon after we did the first time. You know, your episode was definitely one of my favorites over the last couple of years. So if listeners, you haven't heard it, I highly recommend it as well as

her book, Bittersweet. But we're here to talk about gratitude. So I guess let's just start off when I sort of bring up the topic of gratitude. What comes to mind for you kind of right off the bat? You know, what comes to mind is my grandmother. When I was a little kid, she really loved going to the botanical gardens. She had spent most of her life living in cinder block housing where there weren't many flowers around and she loved flowers and trees. And she would go, I think it was the Brooklyn Botanical Garden. I'm not sure which one it was, but I got carted along when I was a kid. And I just remember her saying, it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And the time I was a little kid and I was like,

oh, it's just some flowers. It's kind of boring. You know, they're just sitting here. But I think of her all the time now because I kind of feel the same way. Like I'm just constantly exclaiming to my kids over how beautiful this thing or that thing is. I find every time you stop to exclaim over it or just silently savor it and appreciate it, it lifts you up. And it's also just true. It's also just like stating a truth of like, oh my gosh, here's a daily miracle. There's another daily miracle. They're all over the place. You mentioned the word savoring, which is definitely a key part of gratitude. As I've done research on gratitude,

I created a new program for our Omega workshop around gratitude. And it's certainly that idea of really being able to notice what's around you and try and savor it and appreciate it is really good for gratitude, not just in that moment, but also for our ability to look back on things and be grateful because we've made them more real and present. And thus our recollection of them later is also more real and present. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And one of the insights that I really came to when I was researching the whole Bittersweet book is about the extent to which we as modern people who are scientifically inclined tend to kind of like break down the things around us by understanding what their causes are or you know that they're composed of atoms and molecules and like that which is

wondrous and fascinating in and of itself but the problem that we have is I don't think we're aware in the way people hundreds of years ago were of just how constantly we're surrounded by the miraculous. And I don't mean the miraculous in a supernatural kind of way. I just mean in the like, can you freaking believe that this thing exists? Exactly. One of the guys who wrote a lot about and studied a lot about gratitude is named Robert Emmons. And he has a quote. I'm not going to get it exact, but it's something along the lines of seen with grateful eyes requires that we see the web of interconnection in which we alternate between being givers and receivers. When I think about the miraculous, I think about that web of interconnection, how everything is connected to and caused by something else. And in a very literal sense, the entire universe had to happen in the way it happened to get me

to this beautiful moment right here. That is such a deep mystery and such a deep beauty. Yeah, it really is. It really is. And then at the same time, whenever I hear about or talk about the idea of gratitude, I always feel like there's an untruthfulness to the discussion unless we can also make space for the fact that there are aspects of existence for which we really do have no reason to be grateful, you know, just like horrors and malevolence and all kinds of things that are also part of existence. And that, I don't know, I mean, maybe somebody else would say we should feel grateful for all of it. I don't feel that way. I don't think it's true. I don't think we can or really even should feel grateful for those things. I more just think what's really helpful is to understand that existence encompasses, you know, the beautiful miracles and then the horrors and the sufferings. And that's how it is. Take it all in, accept it, and turn in the direction of the beauty and feel grateful for that. I find that a much more

manageable way of living than the direction I feel we're often told to go in, which is just like, you know, only feel gratitude and don't notice the rest of it. I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think gratitude should not be a way of escaping the realities of our lives or the difficulties in our lives or the things that need to change. Like if you're in an abusive relationship, you don't want to be grateful, find the good things about your abuser and be grateful for them. You want to get out, You know, a lot of things in life we can't get out of, a lot of the type of horrors that you're describing. So I think we do need to take in the whole human condition. And it's interesting, however, to see certain people like Elie Wiesel, I think I'm saying that correctly, talk about how gratitude was really an important part of him surviving. You know, he was in concentration camps and he also writes

deeply about the horror and how terrible it was, right? And so he really shows both of those things. You know, these can both be true. There are things in life we can be grateful for, and there are things in life that we can be suffering through. And both those things can be accurate at the same time or true at the same time. That I think is the key thing to understand. They can both be true at the same time or true at the same time. That I think is the key thing to understand. They can both be true at the same time. And to embrace one doesn't mean to deny the existence of the other. And I think that's something that we can really live with because it's telling the truth. There's this quote from the musician Glenn Gould that I came across the other day, where he talks about, I don't have the exact words in front of

me, but it's something like, the purpose of art is not for the momentary spurt of adrenaline that a beautiful artwork gives you. It's rather that it leads you in the direction of kind of like the slow accumulation of wonder and serenity in your life. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And it's so true. That's why I think turning in the direction of a beauty for which we can be grateful or turning in the direction of gratitude itself is so sustaining because it has a way of fortifying you in the direction of wonder and serenity. You know, it's like the more you do it, the more you get to turn in that direction.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, when we think about gratitude, we first have to sort of be paying attention to what's around us and then noticing the goodness, kind of like you're saying. And then I think there's an element of recognizing the gift of it. You know, that this art, you know, let's just take a beautiful piece of music, a Leonard Cohen piece of music, like I receive that as a gift. Totally. I receive that as a gift. It is a gift to me. And so I think that's the key is recognizing these benefits. And I think one of the things I love about gratitude, I think it's both one of the biggest benefits of gratitude and one of the biggest hindrances to gratitude is our ability to take literally everything for granted. I think that blocks us feeling grateful. But conversely, if we try and look through grateful eyes, it's a way of starting to not take the really good things in our lives quite so much for granted. Our families, our health, the fact that we have drinking water. I mean, there's just so many

things that are truly amazing that if I'm not cultivating the mindset, I just will take for granted and think, you know, I don't have anything good. Right, right. And we all have that experience of like, you get a really bad cold or something, you feel so crappy. And then the first day that you feel better, you're like, oh my gosh, it's so amazing to feel healthy. I am going to appreciate this every minute of every day for the rest of my life. And then, you know, the appreciation starts to wane and you start focusing on other things instead. Yep. Six minutes later, you've got a complaint. I mean, I know, the appreciation starts to wane and you start focusing on other things instead. Yep. Six minutes later, you've got a complaint. I mean, I know it's so funny. I think about that

when I'm in pain, when I'm in pain, the only thing I want is that pain to go away. And it is a deep desire. Like if it's really bad, it blocks everything out. And like you said, I just think, well, if it would just go away, I will be content. And it goes away. And I'm like, well, I have to cultivate appreciation that it's not there. Otherwise, our tendency towards adaptation and our tendency to notice what's negative around us kind of overwhelms those basic things. Yeah. And you keep coming back to the idea of noticing. And I do think that's one of the most important insights. Our brains only have the ability to pay attention to so many things at once and or maybe even only one thing at a time. And we have some ability to direct our attention in the direction of our choosing.

And you can choose to direct your attention towards the things that are a bummer, or you can choose to direct it towards the things for which you're grateful. And I think this is especially true in our relationships with other people, you know, because we're all so incredibly flawed that if we want to, we could easily find the flaws in everyone we encounter and dwell on those. one we encounter and dwell on those. Or you can find the miracles in each other's personalities or just the things we enjoy and focus on those. And that's a choice we can make at every moment. Absolutely. And I don't know who said this quote. I get leery anymore of attributing anything to anyone because it's just every time I turn around, it's like, nope, he never said that. She never said that. But the idea is it's good to look for the best in people. And often they will act that way because of it. Yeah.

I mean, gratitude has been researched kind of out the wazoo. And there's research about a virtuous cycle that starts in couples when they start to appreciate gratitude for each other. Because as one person does that, you know, the other person feels appreciated, then wants to invest in the relationship. And then as you invest in the relationship, the relationship becomes something that's more precious to have because it's better. And the cycle kind of keeps rolling. So I think there's so many ways that it can be a really helpful tool in our lives. And kind of back to your point, it isn't at the exclusion of noticing what's difficult or hard or painful. I think of it more as sort of a day-to-day tool in that it's like you said, where's the orientation of my mind going? And I know where mine goes when I don't consciously redirect it.

It does not go to beauty and gratitude and appreciation. That's not where it naturally goes. And I think most people are that way. And some of us probably more than others. It goes to what's not here, what's missing. I think that's right. And I think it's also useful for people to figure out what are the aspects of their lives that really get them to marveling at how amazing things can be. And I'll just give you an example of what I mean. I took this VIA character strengths test some years ago. It like helps you understand what the strengths are in your own character. And I think there are like 24 different ones and it

just sort of ranks them. And my number one strength was one I hadn't even considered before. And it was appreciation of beauty and excellence. I was like, oh gosh, that's really interesting because I do, you know, like I'll see a perfect figure skating routine or something, or just an article that's amazingly written. And it fills me with a sense of awe and excitement. And so I just know that might seem sort of quirky to somebody else, but I know for me, like that beholding something excellent is incredibly elevating. So the question is, what is it for you and you and you? Like we all have different aspects that elevate us. And taking the time to figure out what it is for you, I think is one of the best gateways to gratitude that we have.

I couldn't agree more. I think it is, what is it for me? Because it is different for everybody. think it is. What is it for me? Because it is different for everybody. Because some people, when they see excellence and beauty, it causes almost an envy, not appreciation of it. For people that have that orientation, that may not be the right direction. A similar idea that's been on my mind lately is I tried surfing for the first time in Europe this summer, and I loved it. And then I've gone to LA and done it again. And it's a stupid hobby for an Ohioan. However, not a traveling Ohioan. That's exactly right. However, it is the first thing in years that makes me fist pumpingly joyous. I don't experience that level of pure joy anywhere else. It's not to say that I don't have subtle flavors of it, but that level of pure joy anywhere else.

It's not to say that I don't have subtle flavors of it, but that level of it. And so I've just been like, you know what? I'm going to make a choice to cultivate that because that feels important. It feels like turning towards beauty and all that. There's something about the combined experience of it all that is really special. And I think that kind of points to what you were just saying about finding your thing. Yeah, absolutely. And I totally get that, by the way. I feel that exact thing when I play tennis, which is a lot more convenient for me because I can just go to the local tennis court. But I know exactly what you're talking about.

And I would fly across the country to feel that way. Yeah, well, tennis has been on my list of things to take up and it just hasn't happened yet. Ginny and I, we were going to take it up as a couple and things with balls and flying at her just don't go well. I don't think she'll mind me sharing that our first tennis lesson together ended in tears. So it wasn't the right couple's activity. However, I'm going to pursue it at some point. I think it's a good idea. And as a couple, maybe you should try pickleball. I just tried playing it with my son last week and it was amazing. It elicited the same exact joy, but it's like a wiffle ball. So Ginny might be happy with that.

Yeah. Pickleball is definitely on the list of things to do also. Well, Susan, I'll end with one question here, which is, is there anything you do besides the conscious turning of beauty to practice gratitude in your life? Or is that really your core practice? Gosh, I don't know. I feel like it's something I do a lot as a parent, partly because my kids, knock on wood, so far have had really good lives and I want them to be aware of how fortunate they are. But I think it's just something that happens naturally as a parent. We live on a quiet street and we often go out onto the street to play catch, you know, and I'll be like, oh my gosh, we're so lucky that we live on this quiet

street where we can do this and don't have to worry about cars. So I'm constantly pointing those kinds of things out to them and hopefully they don't find it annoying. They don't seem to. I do think there's something about being a parent that can orient us in that direction of noticing these things. I love that. I think that's a really great practice. Like if we are orienting our children in that direction, and at the same time choosing to orient ourselves in that direction. Exactly. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It is always such a pleasure to talk with you. And I appreciate you coming on and talking about gratitude today.

You are so welcome. Love talking to you. And yeah, thank you for reaching out on this. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk

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It's called Really No Really and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And closing out this episode is author, meditation teacher, and podcast host at The Astral Hustle, Corey Allen. Hey, Corey, it's good to talk to you again. Good to talk to you again, as always. This has been a bounty of riches as far as talking to you. I feel like I've done it more over the last several months than it took us several years to get in. So this has been great.

Glad to be connected again, man. Yeah. So we are talking about gratitude. And I guess I'll just start off broadly and ask you, you know, when I bring up the topic of gratitude, what comes to mind for you? A couple of different things. I think the first thing is I think about the general things that people associate with gratitude. What is in my life that makes me feel anchored and safe and fulfilled? Those things are relationships, my career, the things I'm able to do and share with people, and just the general systems that I have in my life

that are really meaningful to me. And then of course, there's just the abundance of modern living that I'm really grateful for as far as, you know, I live in Austin, Texas. And so it's so easy to get numb to like the ways that we live of like what's available to us as far as, you know, things like clean drinking water, even stuff like that. Or it's like sometimes I just stop and remember that as easy as to forget that that's a real luxury. It's just so plentiful where we are. It kind of blows my mind. I think about it, wow. But all that stuff people are pretty used to and they're familiar with those ideas around gratitude. But to go a little bit deeper, I'll say this and I'm curious how you think about this. How do people apply gratitude? How do people take the idea,

whether it be sort of along the lines of what I just described, or if it's kind of this memification idea of gratitude, and how do you actually apply that to life to where it has real consistent and daily resonance? Because most people think about gratitude, I ascertain from observing the internet is people look at gratitude or the way it's talked about as some type of solution. So it's like, oh, I'm feeling down today. Well, remember all of the good things in your life, you know, or I'm like in this crazy challenge right now and things feel really difficult. challenge right now and things feel really difficult. It's like, okay, but now tap back into gratitude and remember all the things you have going for you, everything that you've got

them to this point. And so what's trying to happen there is that they're using gratitude in a time where they're struggling to apply it to the challenge, the negative emotions, to offset the feeling of negativity, to try and bring themselves back into balance, right? Now, there's nothing wrong with that, certainly, but are we shortchanging the deeper level of our gratitude by using it in that way? So, if we only look at gratitude as an active way to minimize negativity, are we missing the deeper gratitude available to us in daily lives that exists on its own terms, not in relativity to challenges or negativity, but for its own sake? So that's something I think about, and I have various ways of working with

that. But I'm curious what you think about that and how you might approach that same idea. I first have to ask, are you grateful for your voice? Because as a podcaster, usually in every conversation, I'm like, I'm doing all right over here. But every time I get on with you, I'm like, that guy has got a great podcasting voice. I hope you're grateful for it. I am. Thank you.

And I will say is that with great power comes great responsibility. And so I try and use it wisely. But also it is kind of funny is that it's like, I suppose if someone is like seven feet tall, every person that they meet is like, wow, you're really tall. And they're like, I know that. Thank you for putting, it's kind of a funny thing is that every conversation I have on the phone, on, you know, on podcasts, random conversations, it's generally the first thing that comes up. So,

it is kind of one of those funny things where while I'm grateful for it, it's also like kind of always being brought up to me, which is funny on its own. Yeah. Actually, what you just ended there with, I think is interesting because, you know, when I think about gratitude, I've been thinking a lot about hedonic adaptation and the idea that gratitude is both the greatest antidote for that, but that hedonic adaptation is also the greatest block to gratitude, you know? So, one way of looking at that is if we look at it through the paradigm you just said, which is I use gratitude to counteract certain negative things, right? We could use gratitude as a way of counteracting the fact that we just get used to all the good stuff in our lives. We just do. Our ability to adapt is

a good and bad thing, right? When terrible things happen to us, our ability to adapt to them is a good thing. However, it also means we take literally everything for granted. But it's also interesting to think about if I were to work with hedonic adaptation more skillfully, might that unlock gratitude for its own sake? To just have the depth of gratitude as an orientation to life versus a tool that I bring in. Exactly, yeah. And should we define the hedonic treadmill real quick, or have you talked about that on your podcast before? I'm sure we've talked about it, and I'm sure not everybody hears it all the time. Why don't you define treadmill real quick? Or have you talked about that on your podcast before? I'm sure we've talked about it and I'm sure not everybody hears it all the time. Why don't you define it real quick? Oh, sure. Yeah. So basically think about hedonic, that's pleasure. And so as we

continue to evolve and our lives get better, we very quickly get used to the luxuries and the good aspects of our lives. And it makes it harder for us to see them in the big picture of everything that's going on. So the adaptation or the treadmill analogy, both are, you're just always sort of running towards more pleasure and missing what you have because it's in our nature to, once we acquire something, just normalize it to a new baseline. Yeah, exactly. The adaptation is a principle is us as humans adapt to whatever we're given. If we're given bad things, we have

a remarkable ability to adapt to them. That's the positive side of it. And then the hedonic adaptation is the negative side of it, which is we take everything for granted. You know, you and I were talking beforehand about how fortunate we both are to do the kind of work that we do. Yet, if I don't actually sometimes make an effort to remember that, you know, this thing that I dreamt of for so long, I thought, if I just get that, I'll be happy, no longer makes me happy. Now, gratitude is actually a tool, I think. So this is back to, is gratitude a tool? Is it a state of mind? I think it's all of those things. But for me, it's a tool of kind of getting back to appreciating the things that I actually do have.

If you're not using it as a tool, how do you think about it? Or what do you find to be a more useful orientation? Yeah, and also, I don't think it's really, for me anyway, it's not a black and white. There's definitely gray where I do use it as a tool sometimes. sometimes. But as far as trying to look at a deeper relationship with it, I really apply it through the abundance of presence. So just being aware of being aware and really melting into the present moment with everything that you're experiencing and getting to that root level of, oh, right, I am a aware agent of consciousness flowing through time in the middle of outer space. And I know that I'm a wave of consciousness in a neat space suit. This is

unreal, right? This is so crazy and fun. And it's a good way for me, I just remember that and think about that every day. I suppose it just crops up once or twice a day. I don't really have to work at it too much. But I think about it and it just really grounds me. And it does pull me back to that original mind place that you were talking about of like, whoa. everything that like I've experienced in life, you know, good and bad, the circumstances and like the infinite self-organizing possibility of all that could be. And this is the meat taxi that my brain is in mind is taking a ride in, you know, like this is crazy. And then of course, as I said, it always gets meta where I think the fact that I can think about this and I'm aware that I'm thinking about this is unreal. And to me that like kind of zooming out and zooming in simultaneously,

it's a way to get the big picture and the granular picture at the same time. And then that's whenever, you know, you can get into that state of the classic thing of washing the dishes and feeling, you know, that's an incredible experience because you're actually there for it. You're not somewhere else. You're actually really tuned into just how brilliant it is to even be aware of the fact that you're aware. Yeah. There's three aspects of gratitude I've been thinking about. For gratitude, I think to find its full expression, all three of these things have to be happening. And one is we have to be paying close attention. Yes.

It doesn't really work if we're not. And then the next is to notice the goodness that is there, right? You know, from your perspective here, the goodness is just the wonder of what is this? You know, what is this? And then the last is sort of recognizing it as a gift, right? Recognizing like, I am not the creator of any of this. Like I couldn't have made all this happen on my own. So again, who the giver is, we don't need to get lost on that if you want to. But to me, that's not what's important. What's important is I wasn't the source of it.

Kind of what you were just describing, you sort of summarized all three of those things, right? This deep attention to the present moment, this recognizing that indeed it is good just to be. And that the fact that I am, it's a gift of sorts in that I didn't create it. I can barely create a podcast, let alone, you know, this multiverse we live in. Well, I mean, don't shortchange yourself, Eric. I think that you are the creator of all things and the universe. I think you are an omnipotent being.

I don't know. Like another important part of it is not getting real heavy handed with it, you know? Yeah. Because it's easy for a person to get in there and be kind of feeling like they need to play the role of what we're talking about to like feel what we're talking about. But it's a lot more light than that. Because I feel like whenever this type of conversation crops up, there's a potential for a listener to try and put on that outfit a little bit and wear it in their own lives. And the reason it works is because it's

light. It's not a, like, I'm going to sit down and like really curl my brow and like get deep into this, you know, emotional thing. It's like, no, no, just like lighten up, let go, just feel that you're here and like notice how amazing it is. And then you're good. Yep. And is that enough for you? Or do you find that it actually helps to in some way consciously cultivate gratitude? Or do you find it comes simply by being present? To me, it comes by being present, but also my mind is very curious and extrapolating at the same time. And so I'm always peeling back and thinking about those things and expanding. I will say that I think a real benefit to practicing gratitude for gratitude's sake and just getting into that baseline energy of like,

all right, like whatever, there's always ups and downs. Things suck. Then they're awesome. Then they suck again. Then they're awesome. That's just the way that life goes. And you can mitigate some unnecessary suffering by being active, but okay, there it is. It's cool that we're here. This is fun. This is beautiful. And let's just feel it for a minute. To me, I've noticed, because I've kind of experimented and tried to do this out of curiosity, is that that baseline of gratitude builds a really useful foundation. Because then whenever you do hit a low point and you're feeling the weight of the negative side of the spectrum, it can make it a lot more difficult for you to have all that weight that's pushing on you make any cracks. I've tried to reach my bottom and like have the

bottom fall through for fun, really in curiosity where it's like, if I've gotten into a negative mind state that is fortunately it's, it's pretty rare, but if I do start feeling like I'm sliding into that area of feeling like just hopeless or something like that, I'll like flirt with it. Or I'm like, I'm curious if I could get to the other side of that. Like, what does it feel like to just give up? And I can't get there. Like I've really tried just to see what it's like as I was in that area of being like, come on, like, let's let go and like really give up just to feel it. And maybe a part of it being able to spelunk into the like dark side is like that. It's because I know that I'll come back because I'm just, I always cheer up real easily. You know,

I wouldn't recommend this for someone who's dealing with depression or anything. I was going to say, we got to put a disclaimer at the top of this show at this point. I was going to say, we got to put a disclaimer at the top of this show at this point. Good. I hope that all of our shows have disclaimers going forward. But it's like, as I was like doing that, I was like, oh yeah, I can't get through there because there's that layer of foundational awe of being. That's what the ground floor is. foundational awe of being, that's what the ground floor is. And so all of the weight doesn't end up cracking through that because that is the root of everything. So all of the stuff above it can't

get through it. Well, any last words on gratitude? I don't think so. I'm grateful for you. Thank you for everything you're doing in the world and the person that you're being and sharing out there. And thank you for thinking of me for this conversation. And thank you for everyone for listening through the weirdness and making it to the end. All right. Thanks, Corey. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast.

When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The really, no really podcast. Follow us on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.