The One You Feed - How to Be Okay When Life Feels Overwhelming with Liz Fosslien

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

In this episode, Liz Fosslien discusses how to be okay when life feels overwhelming. Do you ever feel overwhelmed by emotions like anger, envy, or uncertainty—and then feel guilty for feeling that way? Liz challenges some of the biggest myths about emotions. She also dives into why negative emotions aren’t actually bad, how perfectionism holds us back, and why uncertainty feels so unbearable. She shares research-backed insights and actionable strategies to help us navigate difficult feelings in a more constructive and self-compassionate way. Key Takeaways: 00:00 – Introduction to Big Feelings and Emotional Myths 05:55 – The Illusion of Certainty and Why We Overestimate Risk 14:37 – The Cycle of Anxiety, Thought Filtering, and Anxious Fixing 22:53 – Perfectionism as Fear of Failure and How to Break the Pattern 32:35 – The Power of Language: How “Always” and “Never” Reinforce Negative Thinking 38:39 – Comparison Isn’t the Problem—How to Use It for Growth 48:54 – Time Chunking: A Survival Strategy for Emotional Overwhelm 54:49 – Closing Thoughts: Accepting Big Feelings as Part of the Human  Experience For full show notes, click here! If you enjoyed this episode with Liz Fosslien, check out these other episodes: Embracing Emotions at Work with Liz Fosslien (2019) Befriending Difficult Feelings with Adreanna Limbach Connect with the show: Follow us on YouTube: @TheOneYouFeedPod Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Follow us on Instagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sometimes it's not even that we have thoughts that are helpful. It's like the thought becomes I just want to run away from this What can I do? What can I do? And what our brain generates is like what I can do next often isn't actually what we need to do to address that underlying emotion Welcome to the One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear.

We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Have you ever had a day where you just feel off? Not sad exactly, not mad either, but just a swirling mess of feelings that won't sit still? I certainly have, and as it turns out that is completely normal. In fact, my guest today today Liz Fossiline has spent

years studying why we feel the way we feel and why we often believe we shouldn't feel that way. She's here to bust some of the biggest myths about emotions like why anger isn't actually the enemy, where envy can be useful, and why it's not just you feeling like everyone else has it figured out. By the end of this episode you'll walk away with a whole new way to think about your emotions. One that just might make your life a little lighter, a little easier, and a little more human. I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed.

Hey what's up y'all this is Eric Andre. Well I made a podcast called bombing about absolutely tanking on stage. I tell gnarly stories and I talk to friends about their worst moments of bombing in all sorts of ways. Bombing on stage, bombing in public, bombing in life. I wanna know what's the worst way they ever bombed or have they ever performed way too drunk or high or was there ever a time where they thought they were going to crush and they stunk it up?

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Listen to The Puzzler every day on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Liz. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. Really excited to be here again. Yes, excited to have you back again. And you have a new book called Big Feelings, How to Be Okay When Things Are Not Okay, which is a great topic that I know listeners are going to love. But before we get into the book, let's start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their

grandchild. And they say in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up at their grandparent and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

Yeah. Well, I like that it acknowledges that we all experience these emotions and have these within ourselves. I think that's a common misconception when people maybe feed or feel the sort of quote unquote negative emotions that they're alone in it. So I really like that. And then I think the concept of feeding these emotions is really great too. Something that I look at a lot in my work is when you're experiencing something that's difficult, how do you learn from it, but then try to move through it so that it gives you some useful

information, but you don't get tangled up in it and continue to feed it and get dragged into it. So I really love that parable. You hit on something there that you talk about early on in the book, which is really some myths about, you know, what you're calling big feelings. You hit one of the, you know, myths there, but can you talk about a couple of the others? Yeah, so I think the one you're mentioning I hit on, which I actually think is worth revisiting again, is for the book, we surveyed about 1500 people all across the world from all different backgrounds. And we asked them, have you experienced any of these big feelings, which in the book include things like anger, envy, burnout, perfectionism, and basically to a person,

everyone said yes. And so I think one of the myths is, again, that when we experience envy, that we should feel ashamed because we're the only person feeling that, which is absolutely not true. Another one is just around the intensity of those feelings that people often also think in comparison to others, that they're the only ones that are really getting bogged down in. I think depression is a good example of this. When you feel despair, often you feel like everyone else is thriving, and that's one of the ways in which it warps your view of the world, and that's just also not true.

And then the last one that we cover in the beginning of the book is just that there are good, quote unquote unquote and bad feelings. So things like envy, anger is one too. We're often taught that anger is associated with violence and is really harmful to other people and there are absolutely ways that you can express anger like punching a wall or punching a person that are harmful. But at its core anger can motivate us. It's just a flag that there has been a violation. So it can motivate us to advocate for ourselves, to find a better situation for ourselves to advocate for someone else. So I wouldn't call

that a bad emotion, you can take bad actions based on it. But at its core, an emotion is simply data and something that your brain is producing. Right. And we've got this podcast parable that talks about, you know, good wolf and bad wolf, which if we're not careful, sets that myth up, which is that negative emotions, quote unquote, negative emotions are bad. It's why I love the take that you had. And one of the reasons I love the parable is it just says like, hey, everybody has

these, you know, that's I I think, so, so important. And, you know, the thing that's really interesting, and I've been thinking about this a lot lately because we've had a couple of guests recently that have talked about this. One is a woman named Sarah Fay who just released a book. She's diagnosed with six different things over her life, right? And she sort of takes on the DSM,

which is the way that, you know, mental health professionals diagnose people. But I think it gets to the question of when is something normal human emotion that we all go through, and when is something what we would classify as mental illness, and is that distinction even useful? Kiris, your thoughts.

I'm not a licensed psychiatrist to make these calls. Yeah, of course. Sort of my intuition on this is that when it becomes something that you really can't move through and when you're actively harming yourself or other people, that's when it requires maybe medication or like more professional help. But that said, I think medication and professional help can be useful even if you're depressed but functioning. So I think it's always valuable to consider these things on a spectrum. And so I think there's not a clear line.

Sometimes it's just a judgment call that you make yourself or the people around you make or your therapist makes of, okay, at this point there needs to be some more serious intervention. But I think I don't feel like the depths of some of these like really more sort of quote unquote severe disorders that are in the DSM. But on any given day, I feel good. And then an hour later, I feel bad. And you know, like, is that, am I like vacillating too much between emotion? I don't know. That's my baseline. So these are all definitely like, is that? Am I like vacillating too much between emotion? I don't know. That's my baseline. Yeah. So these are all definitely like arbitrary lines that are still useful to have in

some cases. Totally. Yeah. And I do think every case is different. And it's something I think a lot about as someone who has what I would call maybe, today, I'll call it depressive tendencies, instead of saying I, you know, I have depression, I have a tendency in that direction. But at the end of the day, I'll call it depressive tendencies instead of saying I you know, I have depression I have a tendency in that direction. But at the end of the day, I think that the tools that are very useful For working with a lot of these things are the same regardless and and that's really where you guys spend a lot of time In the book you go through these big feelings and for each of them you talk about some myths

And then you talk about how to work with each of them. I love the structure of the book. It's laid out very clearly, very helpfully. And of course, it has the drawings for which you guys are, are very well known. They're so great. They really add so much that we just won't get in a visual or we won't get in an audio only conversation, but they add so much to the book. Let's jump into some of the big feelings. Is there anyone that you would like to hit one that feels like more top of mind today for you than others? I've got a couple I might choose, but I'm curious what you might choose. Yeah, I think I would choose uncertainty and perfectionism. Uncertainty, you know, the last two years, easy to say,

they've been very uncertain. That's one that I've struggled with a lot. And I think a lot of people have as well. Okay. So what are some of the myths around uncertainty? Two that resonated with me when I first started to investigate them. The first was that certainty is attainable. It's really comforting to think, oh, I just wish I could go back to when I was a child and things were certain or pre-pandemic when life was more, it was obvious what was going to happen next and I could plan for it. And the truth is, you can never plan for the future because you can never exactly predict what it is. And yes, there are times when there's more alarming things

that could happen in the future, but generally, I think it's actually really useful to let go of this myth that there is ever perfect stability that you can attain. Because again, it helps you look back at your life and say, I've always been operating in some level of uncertainty. And for the most part, I've been able to successfully navigate it, I've always been operating in some level of uncertainty and for the most part I've been able to successfully navigate it, I'm still here. So I think that can help

you even in moments that feel a little more unstable than others. And then the second myth is that the anxiety we feel in the face of uncertainty is perfectly predictive of how much risk we face. So I think it's so easy to wake up in the morning with this like nebulous pit of anxiety in your stomach and then lean into that and say, oh, because I feel bad, that means something bad is going to happen and now I need to be on full alert and in panic mode. Yeah.

What a funny thing that, I don't know funny, but somehow a lot of the research around uncertainty involves shocking people like giving them harmless but painful electric shocks, like every single study involved. So uncertainty researchers loved electric shocks. That seems actually fairly certain. But in one of these, but in one of these studies, I'm not going to sign up for any studies around uncertainty. I do not. As somebody owned an old guitar amplifier in really lousy houses in long time ago, I used to get shocked all the time. I hate it. Yeah, yeah. So same, I'm not signing up for any of those. But in one of these studies, they segmented people randomly into two groups. And one group had a 90% chance of getting shocked. So it was pretty much guaranteed that that they were gonna get this painful experience. The other group had a 50% chance and the group

that had a 50% chance was three times more stressed than the group that was certain they were gonna get shocked, which speaks to this like we would rather know that something bad is gonna happen than not know what's going to happen. So we really, really hate uncertainty, which again speaks to like, you can be super anxious, but that doesn't mean that you're guaranteed a horrible thing that's about to happen. There's a couple things in what you said there that I think are important that this idea that certainty ever exists is certainly a myth. Like I think those of us who study Buddhism,

they sort of bang us over the head with this sort of stuff. Like, you know, it doesn't exist. There's a poet author out there, Mark Nepo, who talks about something called the terrible knowledge, which is that anything can happen to anyone at any time. And I think that's true, but I think there's a positive too, to recognizing uncertainty besides feeling less anxious about it. The other positive is you don't

take things for granted as much. If you actually realize the true uncertainty of things, you recognize like, oh, you know, let me be grateful for my dog who's laying here right next to me, because I just don't know how much longer that will happen. You know, it can, knowledge of uncertainty can also contribute to our lives in positive ways. Yeah, absolutely. I have a friend who is, you know, in his early thirties, extremely oppressive athlete, eats very healthy, and he had some pain in his ankle last year, which then was diagnosed as bone cancer and needed an amputation and just like, you know, had a horrendous year. And now,

luckily, seems to be in remission. But I just remember that experience. Like it really felt like out of nowhere. Yeah, I don't want to use his story as like it made me feel really good, but it did. It kind of crystallized. Like out of all of us, he's the last person I would have predicted to have such a health crisis at this age. And that it just like put my own health in much more perspective. And I agree with you, it made it, it was like, wow, things like this do happen. And it's horrifying. And so even if I'm not having a great day, I'm still grateful that generally things are okay. Yeah. And the next question I'm going to ask is, you know, as we look at working with emotions and people who talk about emotions

and theorize about emotions, some people have a belief that like thoughts cause our emotions, you know, there's a there's a, you know, thoughts leading to emotion. There's other people that think it's a more complicated than that. And when you were talking about anxiety, it made me think of that sense of some how, some days you just wake up. And before you were talking about anxiety, it made me think of that sense of somehow, some days you just wake up and before you've even had a thought, there's a mood. And then it's like, every thought gets filtered kind of through that mood.

Is that sort of what you were talking about with like anxiety? Like you wake up and it's just, you know, you feel a certain way and now all of a sudden your thoughts all take on the color of that feeling. Absolutely, yes. So my view is that emotions are often the product of stimuli we're taking in. And it can just be a result of our brain chemistry, which is often the cause as well. And so I think it depends on how you define a thought. But then like the conscious thoughts we have get, as you said, filtered through this emotion that's coming up. So one example of kind of how I consider emotion is way, way back in the day, if a lion was charging towards you, it was really important that you just feel fear right away, that your brain was able to process like lion coming, fear run away. And that it wasn't like this very conscious like oh there's a lion perhaps you know and you can

I think you can debate forever if the thought comes first what a thought is but then everything after that is filtered through this like physiological response you're having in response to that emotion and with anxiety I think it's the same right so if you doom scroll late at night go to bed have bad dreams or there's just this like subconscious thing running through you that the future is really scary, there's all these horrible things happening in the world. You wake up, you have this pit, you're not even really conscious

of what thoughts are driving that, but then that starts to create these thoughts that might not necessarily be true. For me personally, which as I've talked to people, I think a lot of people experience this, it also generates this frantic energy that leads you to kind of exhaust yourself in an effort to get over the anxiety. But because you're not sitting with it and really trying to understand what might be driving it, it's not productive.

So to give more color to that, I used to wake up, especially during the early days of the pandemic, feel so anxious and I would just vacuum the floor. I would answer all my emails. I would create all these new projects for myself. I would call someone. I would just have this to-do list and mercilessly bang my way through it. And at the end of the day, I was just exhausted, but I had never stopped to think, why am I anxious? Like, what can I actually do about that underlying emotion?

So I just didn't feel any better. I actually felt way worse. And so I think that's also, sometimes it's not even that we have thoughts that are helpful. It's like the thought becomes, I just want to run away from this. What can I do? What can I do? And what our brain generates is like, what I can do next often isn't actually what we need to do to address that underlying emotion

So what are some tools for working with uncertainty? Yeah, so the first is just to stop this cycle of what psychologists call anxious fixing So this is you feel anxiety and it feels good to cross things off a checklist And so you do and you do and you do but you're not actually addressing that underlying need. So it's really just in this case when you feel that overwhelming panic or anxiety it's to stop and don't rush into anything else just sit there and say like I'm this moment I'm very anxious and then try to think through like in this moment, I'm very anxious, and then try to think through like, what are my fears? So anxiety is more nebulous, this sort of anxious feeling we have versus a fear which is centered

around something specific. And so you might say, you know, over the past years, like, I'm afraid I'll get COVID. I'm afraid someone I love will get COVID. And those are terrifying things. But once you actually map out the exact fears you have, it's easier to start thinking, what can I do to prevent that? What steps can I take? Versus with anxiety, there's not a clear next step. So I think the first piece of advice would just be just stop and sit with it as uncomfortable as that might feel in the moment. It's really important. Yep. And then you sort of led into another one there, which is to try and go from vague anxiety into more specific fears, like what am I really afraid of? And, you know, the more specific, oftentimes the better.

Yeah, I think one thing that came up a lot as I was speaking with both experts and then just people about this is some people mentioned they find it useful to ask themselves what's the worst thing that could happen and then realizing that it's not so bad is comforting to them. And so if that works for you, that's great. I do want to share that tip. For me personally, I can come up with some really doomsday, so, you know, like, what's the worst thing that can happen? I am very creative when it comes to this question. So if that's you, I would not ask that. Or I would say, what's the worst thing that could happen?

And then follow it up with, what's the best thing that could happen? And what is the likelihood that the worst thing happens? Because often it's like, yeah, I dreamed up this nightmare scenario. But it's extremely unlikely that that's actually what's going to happen tomorrow. And so it's important to keep that in mind as well. Makes me laugh. My partner's mom has Alzheimer's that that does not make me laugh. But within that, you know, humor is is helpful.

And she would get these anxious fears. And so I would try and reason with her. Like she was always afraid she was going to starve to death. I'd be like, what, you're not, you know, and I'd start going into why she's not going to starve to death. Every time she would just come up with a more and more fantastical story about how this was going to happen. And I just, after a while, I realized like this, this is, this is not working. Like, you know, like, this is one where her ability to dream up scenarios is well beyond my ability to, you know, come up with contingency plans. And I know some people who are like that also, like, you know,

what's the worst thing that can happen? They've got some doozies, you know? Oh, yeah, that's definitely me. What's the worst thing that can happen for me is generally a pretty good one, you know, because I'll go like, well, you know, I guess we won't make any money if we don't make any money for a few months, you know, I'll figure it out, which sort of leads me to another one of your tips for uncertainty, which is

to sort of reflect on moments that bring you confidence, or reflect on your ability to you confidence or reflect on your ability to cope with what uncertainty brings. Yeah, so this is I think one of the best ways to navigate uncertainty. It's not about creating confidence for yourself that something is going to happen at a future point in time, because like we said, you can't really do that. It's about building confidence that you will be able to handle it. And so one great't really do that. It's about building confidence that you will be able to handle it. And so one great way to do that is to look back

and try to find moments when you were overwhelmed or you didn't think you could make it through an experience and you did. So for example, I actually, for, I don't know, 20 years, struggled with a really intense needle phobia. And I went to cognitive behavioral therapy to overcome it, but it was an example of where my anxiety was absolutely not proportional to the risk, right?

Like getting your blood drawn is a very low risk procedure. And I looked like faint, I couldn't sleep for days. I would avoid going to the doctor because I just didn't even wanna risk needing blood work. And so through CBT, I was able to gradually expose myself to the situation more and more. And now it's still an unpleasant experience. But every time I feel this fear, I remind myself,

think back to the last blood draw where everything was fine. You didn't pass out. You were able to make it through. And so every subsequent blood draw has been easier and easier because I've built that confidence in myself. And so the same thing can be applied to uncertainty. If you've gone through something really hard, often we wish we hadn't had to go through that hard thing, but you can take away the lesson that you are capable of surviving it and of making it through.

And one quick phrase I want to end with on this is I found it so valuable to also tell myself, I am a person learning to X. So when you're confronted with uncertainty, saying like, I need to have it all figured out right now, I can't do this, just I'm a person learning to continue to move through uncertainty. And I've done it before and there's lessons there, but I'm still gonna find new ways to do it. And I think that phrase can really help you shift your mindset to be more open to, it's okay, I will make it through this.

Excellent. Well, let's move on to, I think you chose perfectionism as your next one, right? I did, yes. This is a big one for me. Tell us about your perfectionism Yeah, my perfectionism definitely manifests in my work So just I think becoming overly obsessive with getting to a hundred percent

Versus, you know saying like in this case actually eighty percent is more than enough And it's actually better for everyone if I don't spend more time on this But it also has shown up a lot in my personal relationships. So when I first started dating my now husband, I felt in many ways that I was two people. And the first was me, who sometimes likes to stand in my kitchen in radioled pajamas and eat cheese directly from the fridge. And then the person that I was when we were dating and not living together, which I always, you know, I would put on makeup and tried to be funny and gregarious and have

stories and would eat really politely. And then when the relationship was going well and then we talked about moving in together and that was terrifying for me. So I was like, oh my god, he's going to discover this person that's so different, that's kind of a mess, that has anxiety attacks at night. I just hidden that all away because I really thought that to be in a relationship, to have someone love you, you just had to be perfect and you had to be fun to be around all the time. So it's for a lot of my life shown up sort of in every facet of both professional and personal life. Hi, I'm Bob Pitman, Chairman and CEO of iHeart Media.

I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. I'm having conversations with some interesting folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like Chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Tereng Amin. The way I approach risk is constantly try things and actually make it okay to fail. I'm sitting down with legendary singer-songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel.

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on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. September, 1979. Virginia's top prison band, Edge of Daybreak, is about to record their debut album, Behind Bars, in just five hours. Okay, we're rolling. One, two, three, four. I'm Jamie Petrus, music and culture writer.

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Listen to Soul Incarcerated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if you asked two different people the same set of questions? Even if the questions are the same, our experiences can lead us to drastically different answers. I'm Minnie Driver, and I set out to explore this idea in my podcast, Minnie Questions. Over the years,

we've had some incredible guests. People like Courtney Cox, star of the infinitely beloved sitcom Friends, EGOT winner Viola Davis, and former Prime Minister of the UK, Tony Blair. And now, Mini Questions is returning for another season. We've asked an entirely new set of guests our seven questions including Jane Lynch, Delaney Rowe and Cord Jefferson. Each episode is a new person's story with new lessons, new memories and new connections to show us how we're both similar and unique. Listen to mini questions on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Seven questions, limitless answers. Before we get into coping tools, let's follow the way we've been going, which is what's

a couple of myths people have about perfectionism? So, one myth is that you're not a perfectionist. And I think people who have perfectionist tendencies, often they're so hard on themselves that it's incomprehensible to them that they'd be a perfectionist because they're like, I'm not perfect. I'm a complete failure. I'm not perfectly dressed for every situation. I don't ace every single presentation at work. How can I be a perfectionist? And perfectionism is not about like color coded folders and looking a certain way or behaving a certain way. It's about desperately trying to avoid failing.

So it's one thing to aim for 100% on a test and get 94% and feel pretty good. It's another to aim for 100, get 98, and then beat yourself up because you didn't get that one question. And that's perfectionism. So I think being honest with yourself that you might have these tendencies even if you don't think of yourself as perfect or perfectionist. And then another one is that perfectionism helps us. I think a lot of myself included, it was like, oh,

if I abandon this, if I try to move away from these thoughts or tendencies, I'll turn into a couch potato and I won't have any drive and I'll just be a complete basket case on the floor, when in fact, perfectionism, a lot of research shows, makes you focus so much on this fear of failure that it holds you back much more than it helps you move forward. So the two are, you might have perfectionist tendencies,

even if you don't think and then once you accept that it's okay to move away from them. They are not as helpful as you think they are. Yeah and then the third myth is what you sort of hit on in your personal story which is you know I have to be perfect to be valued. Yeah exactly and I think that for many people shows up in their personal lives. Yep, yep. How have you worked with perfection in your own life? And then, you know, we can go into some of the tools from the book, but I'm just kind of curious, like in your personal life, like that's a big one.

You know, how have you worked through that? Yeah, so I did see a therapist, which was really helpful. And the story I share in the book that has stuck with me the most is, my therapist asked me to recall a time like just a really great experience I had with a pet and I remembered this like grumpy Persian cat that I used to cat sit and she you know she had the face that indicated she hated everyone and she had a breathing problem at that

point so she would have these little snorts and I adored this cat and she would you know she would just like come and sit and sometimes she looked she seemed like irritated there but just by sitting there like I just liked to be around this cat and my therapist said isn't it possible that like your boyfriend just likes to be around you and even if you're just sitting on the couch and you're not telling a joke and you don't look a certain way that there's just a lot of comfort in having another person be there, even if they're just being there.

And so that is something. And I also think about my mom. If I call her, I have a close relationship with her. It helps me feel better. And that's how I felt about my boyfriend. Like he didn't, you know, if he just woke up and had bed head and everything, like, I don't know, I just loved that he he was there and So starting to see things from that perspective and then the second was also

actually one of the tips that is in the book too is about moving away from avoidance goals to approach goals and so an avoidance goal is Avoiding failure so I don't want him to see me avoiding failure. So I don't want him to see me without makeup. And an approach goal is about attaining something positive. And an approach goal is inherently more exciting and you feel good when you reach it, right? Like if you just avoid failure, that's not an inspiring goal. You're gonna avoid failure and you know, it's like great, okay, I don't get anything out of this. So in the context of that relationship, an approach goal might have been, I'm gonna put

on my ratty pajamas and I'm gonna show him my favorite cheese and we're actually gonna have like a fun time eating cheese out of the fridge together. You know, and like that was just like opening up a little more. But then it was also it culminated in this like really fun bonding experience. And so often we just get into this mindset of, I don't wanna mess up this presentation. And instead if we think free of expectations, how can I just really show people how excited I am about the material?

And that's a really different way of starting to work on that presentation. I wanted to pause for a quick Good Wolf reminder. This one's about a habit change and a mistake I see people making. And that's really that we don't think about these new habits that we want to add in the context of our entire life, right? Habits don't happen in a vacuum. They have to fit in the life that we have.

So when we just keep adding, I should do this, I should do that, I should do this, we get discouraged because we haven't really thought about what we're not going to do in order to make that happen. So it's really helpful for you to think about where is this going to fit and what in my life might I need to remove. If you want a step-by-step guide for how you can easily build new habits that feed your good wolf, go to goodwolf.me slash change and join the free masterclass. You talked about not needing to get things to 100% as being, you know, one thing to do. How do you start to know within yourself when you're sort of in that zone of like, okay, I'm spending a ton of extra time to get very little value out of that.

How do you know that? Because I think that's hard for perfectionists. And then secondly, once you know that, what are some of the things you might say to yourself to actually get you to set it down and move on. Yeah, so one question that I found helpful is, when would I be ready to ask someone for feedback and they could give me useful feedback? Usually, if you get to 100%, you're actually not open to feedback anymore because you're like, this is great. Why should I need anyone to help me? That's so interesting. Yeah.

Like if I'm, let's say I'm writing an article, I also can't hand someone a page that just has completely incomprehensible notes on it. They're not going to give me feedback. So I think that's a nice heuristic of like, when is this in enough shape where someone gets where I'm going and they can provide useful direction? I think that's one. And then I think it's also just opening yourself to learning. And so saying another thing

that I found useful is if I am in a silo working on this till 100%, I might get to 100% and realize this is not something that resonates with people or not what my boss wanted. So I'm actually creating more work for everyone as opposed to like handing it to her at like 70% and then maybe making some course corrections. So it's about creating some breaks for yourself. And then also I really like this question of like, when would this be ready for feedback? Yeah, my partner and I were talking about that recently in that, you know, when I'm giving a talk for our spiritual habits program or, you know, the second spiritual habits circle of connection, she co-teaches,

but I tend to start the lessons. And what I realized was exactly what you just said, although I wouldn't articulate it as well, which is that I think I'm almost done by the time I bring her in. And at that point, I don't really want feedback because what I want is to be done, you know, like I think I'm done. You know, right. And so we talked about like, I gotta bring her in, like, there's got to be enough there for her to critique to your point, like, but I need to bring her in much earlier, because I may be way more

open to feedback at that point, and not take it in the way that I, you know, sometimes I just get a little grumpy, you know, and the more time I spend with it, oftentimes, the more attached I get to the way it is, which is in the way that I you know, sometimes I just get a little grumpy, you know, and the more time I spend with it, oftentimes, the more attached I get to the way it is totally, which is in the music business, we used to call it rough mix itis, right? You've listened to it this certain way in this rough mix for so long that that's how you think it should sound. And somebody comes along and may have a much better mix, but you're not open to it because you're sort of mired in

in what your idea of it was. Yeah, I love those examples. That's exactly what I'm talking about. You also talk about one of my very favorite topics, which is how extreme language can cause extreme emotion. And you talk about getting rid of always and never. Yeah. So those are two words that usually show you've slipped into your perfectionist tendencies, and that your self reflection has turned self destructive. So examples are good parents, never yell at their kids, great employees are always turning everything

in five days before the deadline. And those are extreme views of the world that just aren't true. So again, it's usually a sign that whatever thought is banging around your brain is not an accurate perception of reality. And so I think it's nice to have those words so that when you notice them say like, oh, okay, I see what's happening here.

I need to think about this differently. So, you know, like good parents never feel frustrated that they're kids and actually say like, good parents do feel frustrated. It's totally fine. How can I just navigate through the situation? How can I make it better? In a work context, you know, great employees or employees who get promoted never make mistakes. Also not true. And so it allows you to step back from that and say, I made a mistake. Can I ask my boss for advice on how to avoid making that mistake in the future? I think it just allows you to detach a little bit from these extreme ways of thinking that cause us to berate ourselves and then start to feel really down and low. Yeah, those two words tend to be destructive wherever they show up, whether it's in our own lives. Like you said, a good parent should never get angry or when we're communicating to somebody

else, you always do this or you never do that. You know, like they just, they're troublesome words. Yeah. I love that you brought up too in communication and conversation, you know, if you say you always do X, that person is just immediately going to come up with an example of when they didn't do it. 100%! Yep. It's not a useful conversation. I'm sure I've done plenty of the saying always or never, but I know for sure I've been in relationships with people who have used those phrases, and you're right.

I'm immediately like, but that's not true! You know, like, you know, which is missing the point. A more nuanced version of me would be like, all right, I understand what they're saying underneath, ignore the word, you know, that's a feeling, but it's very hard. It's very hard to not counter, you know, a factual incorrectness there. Yeah. there. Hi, I'm Bob Pipman, Chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia.

I'm excited to introduce a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. I'm having conversations with some interesting folks across a wide range of industries to hear how they reach the top of their fields and the lessons they learned along the way that everyone can use. I'll be joined by innovative leaders like Chairman and CEO of Elf Beauty, Thereng Amin. The way I approach risk is constantly try things and actually make it okay to fail.

I'm sitting down with legendary singer, songwriter and philanthropist, Jewel. I wanted a way to do something that I loved for the rest of my life. We're also hearing how leaders brought their businesses out of unprecedented times, like Stephane Bancel, CEO of Moderna. It becomes a human decision to decide to throw by the window your business strategy and to do what you think is the right thing for the world.

Join me as we uncover innovations in data and analytics, the math, and the ever-important creative spark, the magic. Listen to Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. September, 1979. Virginia's top prison band, Edge of Daybreak, is about to record their debut album, Behind Bars,

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podcasts. Hey, this is Mel Reed, LPGA Tour winner and six-time Lady Geo-Beam Tour winner. And Kira Kaye-Dixon, NBC Sports reporter and host. You forgot to say All My Miss America, by the way. And we've got a new podcast, Quiet Please, with Mel. And Kira, we are bringing you spicy takes on sports and pop culture, some the way, and we've got a new podcast, Quiet Please, with Mel. And Kira. We are bringing you spicy takes on sports and pop culture, some golf haps, and interviews with incredible people who have figured out how to make golf their superpower.

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Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. You talk about naming your inner perfectionist and finding a non-perfectionist role model. Say a little more about that. Yeah, so it's again a method to allow yourself to distance yourself from your thoughts. And so, you know, for your perfectionist,

it might be a part of you that is useful to engage with sometimes, but you don't want it to consume all of you. And so calling your perfectionist, I think in the book we give examples of like Grace or Darth Vader or Bozo, it can be a goofy name, whatever feels good to you. And then when you start to have these thoughts like,

good parents always do X, great employees never do Y, saying like, oh, that's Bob, my inner perfectionist. And I'm actually gonna say like, what does Bob want in this moment, right? Like there actually might be some useful information in there. Like Bob really wants to be a great employee. It's useful to know that like, oh, I do want to do well in this job, but you're not sort of like leaning into those emotions and taking them or

those thoughts and taking them as fact. And then a non-perfectionist role model, I think it's actually really useful if there's someone at work that you really admire, a mentor, just someone in your personal life, to also note when they flub something or they don't immediately respond to an email. Because again, I think it helps you realize that everyone makes mistakes. No one is like on their A game 24-7. And so you can still be successful and impressive and this incredible person in someone's life, even if you're not, you know, striking a home run every second of the day. If anyone needs a clear example of non-perfection in their life, I offer myself up.

Same. I love that. Yeah. And I love naming my inner characters. I've shared often, you know, about my inner depressive tendency person is Eeyore, you know, from Winnie the Pooh, you know? That's a good one. Yeah. And it makes me kind of laugh every time I start putting my thoughts in Eeyore's voice,

you know? It's good. So I've had people ask me if I would record whole guided meditations for them in Eeyore's voice, but I have stayed away from that for now. All right, now it's my turn to pick a... I've got a bug flying around here. I'm not going to fall into the perfectionist idea of that, like, you should never have a bug in your house. Yep, bugs are everywhere. They're everywhere, yes. I'm going to pick my big feeling and I'm going to go with comparison. Not actually because it's one of the ones that I struggle with as much, because I actually don't as much anymore in my life,

but it's one I know a lot of people do struggle with and I found a lot of the things you guys had to say about it, in a lot of cases, counterintuitive and counter to what people think. So let's talk a little bit about comparison. It can be one of the most painful big feelings out there. What are a couple of the myths around comparison? Yeah, I think nowadays, so much of the conversation centers around social media. And so I think it's easy then to assume if I get off of Instagram or Facebook I will be free of comparison and that's just not true. There's infinite examples of like, you know, your neighbor your colleague your

Whatever you're still gonna compare yourself to people So yeah, it can be absolutely helpful to limit social media intake But it's not sort of the magic wand with which you can eradicate all of these emotions. The second one that we talk about in the book is if you just get to a certain point, you'll feel great about yourself and you'll never compare yourself to anyone else. You know, it's very true that there's always going gonna be someone who is better than you, quote unquote, on some metric. If you have infinite money, you're suddenly gonna turn to like looks or I don't know, access to some whatever, or maybe even like meaning

or whatever it is. You're just, you can never be the best at everything. And so I think it's really useful to catch yourself when you hear yourself saying like, I'll be happy when blank, because the truth is that's not guaranteed and it's more important to figure out how to be happy with what you have.

Those are two big ones. And then the one that I find the most interesting, which we stumbled across this research a couple of years ago and it's been really helpful to me is that to overcome comparison or to envy you should compare yourself less. So that's the myth is that just like don't look at other people. And the truth is it's actually research shows makes you feel better to compare yourself more. So what the researchers find is they asked people like how good of a runner do

you think you are? And people said they were not good runners because in their head they thought of the absolute best runner they knew But when the researchers said list out in your life ten people You know personally and how well they run and now evaluate how good of a runner you are people were like, I'm pretty good Yeah, and so it's like I think it's really easy if we think about, you know, how successful am I? We think about Mark Zuckerberg and we're like, I'm so unsuccessful. But then if you actually put it into perspective, like you're in the top 5% of all money brackets or whatever it might be, or you think about your peer group, you're usually not like far, far, far behind everyone else. And so I think actually, having a wider comparison

range can put things into better perspective. Yeah, I also think that ideas around what types of comparison can actually be helpful is really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. So comparison is sort of inevitable. So then it starts, you start to think about when I have, when I noticed myself comparing or I noticed myself being envious of someone, what is helpful to me and what is harmful? And so what is helpful is to take a step back

from that emotion and say, what is my envy telling me? So envy can reveal what you value. So it might be, you really envy a colleague who just got promoted and what you learn is that maybe you really want to be promoted to, or you really want to do well. But then it's still useful to kind of drill down of like, yes, you want that. But do you want the day to day of that? Because it might be that you're envious of a CEO, because they're successful, and you've

been sort of socialized to want to be the most successful, but do you actually want to do everything it takes to be a CEO? Is that the work-life balance you want? Is that the, do you wanna make the same sacrifices? And so I think it's about really asking yourself this series of questions that can then highlight when the comparison isn't useful and it's flawed,

and then it allows you to more easily step away from it. Yeah, I really love that idea of really thinking about, I'm looking at this thing that I think I want, what does that really entail? What do I really need to do to get there? What are some questions that are helpful for getting into that? I think you guys call it the nitty gritty, right?

Getting into the nitty gritty of, like I look at somebody and I'm comparing myself, the CEO one is a is a great one, you know, I could think about I could look at somebody, a male model, men's health cover model and look at that and be like, well, I want to look like that. But when I think about the way that guy has to live, I suddenly go, ah, well, you know, I think I'm doing okay. You know, like, I'm not sure that I want that life. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I think the first question is just like, what do they have that makes me feel less than? In that example, it's like they have whatever, this body that is on the cover of a magazine. And then it's also useful to think about, like, do I really want that?

And am I willing to, like you just said, like think about like, do I really want that? And am I willing to, like you just said, like live the life that would lead to that? And often we say no. So one example I share in the book is I'm an introvert. My worst days are when I have like back to back meetings. I'm just exhausted. And I have a friend who is very successful, was promoted and like took over a team of 200 people. And I have a friend who is very successful, was promoted and took over a team of 200 people. And I initially was really envious of her. And then I saw her Google calendar and was just like, nope. I could not do that. That is not for me. And then it just really helped those feelings abate quite a bit. So I think the day-to-day question is really great, but then it's also useful to ask, like, what void would having that fill? Because often we anchor too much on

the specific thing versus, like, what actually is, like, the bigger need behind the feeling of envy. So it might be that it's not really that you want the body that's on the cover of a magazine, you just wish you could feel more confident. And then it's useful to think you want the body that's on the cover of a magazine, you just wish you could feel more confident. And then it's useful to think like, oh, there's actually many other ways that I can improve my confidence that don't have to do with me like never touching anything with sugar in it again. Right. I just go over to Chris's and look at his body and I suddenly feel way, way better. It's not nice. I'm just kidding. I'm just

kidding. You've got a question in there too that I love, which is, you know, swap out the question, why don't I have that with do I have enough? Yeah, again, it's so easy for us to anchor our comparison benchmark on people who are better than us or not better, but like seem like they're doing better. That was a correct wording. And it is then really useful to think like, actually, I'm pretty happy with my life. And, you know, I don't want for many things. And so right now I'm really just comparing myself to this maybe 10,000 extra dollars, you know, every two years would be really nice. But fundamentally, like, I live in a safe country with a stable government. And like, it's just useful to remind yourself of that as well, like all that you have, as opposed to only focusing on everything

you do not have. Yeah, I had a moment, I've shared this a couple times on the podcast, but it was a really poignant moment for me. It was years ago, we were relatively early in doing the podcast and we went out to LA and we interviewed Lewis Howes, who has gone to be a huge podcaster. He's been on like Ellen and all this stuff. And so he had this really nice apartment in Hollywood. And I went out on his balcony and I was just looking down at the view. And I was just thinking like, man, Lewis has got it all. Like, wow, this is incredible.

And feeling, you know, a little bit of envy. And I looked up over my shoulder and what I saw were these just incredible houses on the hill. And I went, you know what? I bet Lewis looks over his shoulder at those houses. And to your point that that never ends. Right. That is an endless process. And so that's one of the best things for me and why I like that question of, you

know, do I have enough is when I really start to recognize that again, I think what you're saying is that recognizing what we're envious can tell us a little bit about what we value, which is true. And sometimes it can be really helpful to realize this thing that I think if I had it, then I would just, that I would be happy to realize like, that's not true. Like, the happiness doesn't work that way. It doesn't come from like, oh, if I just was in Bali this week, like those people are, I would be happy.

Like, that's not true. I've been on vacation in beautiful places and been perfectly miserable. You know, it just helps me to recognize that sort of unwind some of those feelings. Yeah, same. I've also been, you know, on the trip of a lifetime and just been not happy at all. It's in the book, we talk about something called the new level new devil phenomenon, which is actually from video games. But it's often yet, it's like when I achieve x, I'll be happy. So it might be when I become a manager, I'll be happy. But when you become that your peer group also changes somewhat. And so now everyone around you is also a manager, because now you're going to manager meetings. a manager because now you're going to manager meetings. And so it sort of normalizes this thing that seemed really unattainable at some point. And so you just start looking upwards again. So

it's kind of like whatever level you get to, there will be a new devil of the new thing that would quote unquote, make you happy. Yep, we've talked about it as sort of that, you know, if this thing, then I'll be happy. And one of the things that a getting older and b having some degree of success will do for you, it doesn't always do this, but it can confer a certain degree of wisdom because you have enough opportunities where you're like, Oh, I got what I thought I wanted. And look, it didn't do it, right? Like it didn't fix me, you know, it didn't. And you really start to go, Oh, okay, you know, what are the skills that I can have that allow me to actually inhabit

where I'm at right now more fully? Yeah, totally. Is a way through that. Well, we're nearing the end of time. What other things from the book really stood out to you or from this work that you feel like would be really helpful for listeners as a last couple things, if anything comes to mind. If not, I can certainly drum up another question or two. But yeah, I think something that I found really valuable actually comes from our chapter on despair. And it's this concept of time chunking, which is, you know, the emotions we're talking about are really hard. There's often messaging that's like, you know, this was meant to happen for a reason, you know, this is a learning experience. And though, you know, like, it's a sure, maybe it's a learning experience a year from now. Maybe you can

look back on it and craft a meaningful story. But I think most of us, something like grief or deep regret, we'd rather not experience it. And so in those moments when it's just like so, so hard, I think it's so easy to be like, this is how I'm going to feel forever. And what I found really valuable is time chunking, which is then I need to get through the next hour. And it might be like,

I need to get through the next moment. And then I need to get through the moment after that. I think it's fine to say there are days when my goal for the day is to make it through the day. You know, and like, just what do I need to do today? Because maybe after sleep, tomorrow will look a little different. Maybe I just need to like watch Netflix all day.

Maybe I need to, you know, like lie on the couch and just be sad. And often when we talk about these big emotions, there's not enough that's focused on just like, how do you just make it through when you're in the worst of it? And in those moments when it's actually hard to believe there's a better and it's hard to believe

that this will ever be a memory that is meaningful or has created meaning for you. And I think it really comes down to like one foot in front of the other or like one breath at a time. If you're lying down, get, get up. Yeah. The time chunking is something I've come back to. Yeah. As a recovering alcoholic, right? I mean, AA, I think is the place that sort of that probably didn't invent it,

but certainly the place that made one day at a time, like the popular phrase that it became, because it's so valuable. You know, when you're first getting sober, it's so overwhelming to contemplate like, I have to do this forever. Are you out of your mind? Yeah, like there's no possible way. So okay, just today. And like you said, sometimes it's like just this hour, just don't take a drink this hour and hope that something shifts. Yeah, that time chunking is such a valuable skill to be able to do. And I love what you said about

recognizing like, okay, maybe this is a growth lesson, and I'm going to grow from this is one of those things that I always find it when somebody's in despair. I feel like I'm always trying to balance when I'm trying to help somebody who's in despair, like 97% of me is going, I feel you, I simp, like I'm with you. 3% of me wants you just to keep your eye just a little bit on the horizon that says like, this is going somewhere for you. So not to minimize what you're feeling, like the vast majority of it is like, it's okay not to be okay.

And I know when I've been in despair, it's always helpful to have just a little bit of looking at the horizon where I realized like, this will change. I'm going to grow from this. What's the right balance of that? I think is always challenging, but I find it really helpful to have both those things in my awareness a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. I think that often when someone comes to us or when we just notice that they're suffering

or going through something, it feels good to be like, okay, I have solutions. I'm gonna help you and we're gonna fix this. And that's not a bad thing necessarily, but I agree with you. It's like, first you just need to say, maybe I don't totally know what you're going through, but I acknowledge that this is really hard and I'm here

for you and I, you know, just like it's okay whatever you're feeling, it's okay I'm here. And I think that is just so so crucial before you start doing this like it'll get better or there's like a light at the end of the tunnel type thing. I think too often we just skip that part entirely. So listener, in thinking about that and all the other great wisdom from today's episode, if you were going to isolate just one top insight that you're taking away, what would it be? Remember, little by little, a little becomes a lot.

Change happens by us repeatedly taking positive action. And I want to give you a tip on that, and it's to start small. It's really important when we're trying to implement new habits to often start smaller than we think we need to because what that does is it allows us to get victories. And victories are really important because we become more motivated when we're feeling good about ourselves and we become less motivated when we're feeling bad about ourselves. So by starting small and making sure that you succeed, you build your motivation for further change down the road. If you'd like a step-by-step guide for how you can easily build new habits that feed your Good Wolf,

go to GoodWolf.me slash change and join the free masterclass. There's a psychologist at the University of Michigan, his name is Ethan Cross, and he wrote a book called Chatter. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but he had some really interesting studies about helping people who are going through really difficult times. And what these studies seemed to point to was only sympathizing with people didn't lead to good results. That you did need some degree of that solution oriented peace. And when I was reading it, it just sort of struck me that like, of course, it's both, right? We all know if you skip right past the empathy, sympathy part of the game, and you try

and shepherd somebody right to solutions, like that doesn't work. Nobody wants that. So it is a matter of like, okay, how can I be with you in this first? And how long that takes really depends on the person, right? Like, I can't say like, well, all right, I gave you your 15 minutes, and now we're going to talk solutions. Like, it really does depend on the thing. But I found the research interesting that it sort of said, you kind of need both. And it made me think about the argument that I hear a lot between men and women

where, you know, women are saying, I just need you to hear me. And men just want to solve the problem. And when I was reading it, I went like, we're both right. Like, there's value in both of those. How do we make sure that they're both there? But you can't get to the second one, I don't think, effectively, without the first one. Totally, yeah.

Agree with all of that, and that research is super interesting. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It is such a pleasure to have you back on. I love the book. Like I said, I love the way it's organized. I love the title, how to be okay when things aren't okay, and I love the drawings.

It's really well done. We'll have links in the show notes I love the title, How to be Okay When Things Aren't Okay, and I love the drawings. It's really well done. We'll have links in the show notes to where people can get access to you and to the book and all of that. Is there anywhere you want to point people to? No, show notes. The book is available everywhere books are sold. So hopefully you can track it down.

Yep. Yep. And it's called Big Feelings, How to be Okay When Things Are Not Okay. Thanks again, Liz. It's always lovely to see you. You too. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought-provoking, I'd love for you to share it with a friend.

Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don't have a big budget, and I'm certainly not a celebrity, but we have something even better and that's you. Just hit the share button on your podcast app or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world and together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the One You Feed community. Hey, what's up, y'all?

This is Eric Andre. Well, I made a podcast called Bombing about absolutely tanking on stage. I tell gnarly stories and I talk to friends about their worst moments of bombing in all sorts of ways. Bombing on stage, bombing in public, bombing in life. I want to know what's the worst way they ever bombed or have they ever performed way too drunk or high. Was there ever a time where they thought they were going to crush and they stunk it up? Listen to Bombing with Eric Andre on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Bombing with Eric Andre. Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here, and Eating While Broke is back for season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season, we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories. On the menu, we have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London, and Carrie Harper

Howie turning Big Macs into big moves. Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on the Black Effect podcast network, iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, wherever you get your favorite shows. Come hungry for season four. Dressing. Dressing. Oh, French dressing. Exactly. I'm AJ Jacobs and my current obsession is puzzles. And that has given birth to my podcast, The Puzzler. Something about Mary Poppins? Exactly. This is fun.

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