The One You Feed - How to Cultivate Lovingkindness with Sharon Salzberg

Episode Date: August 26, 2022

Sharon Salzberg is one of the worlds best know Buddhist teachers and a leader in meditation retreats worldwide since 1974. She teaches both intensive awareness practice (vipassana or insight meditation) and the profound cultivation of lovingkindness and compassion (the Brahma Viharas). She is a co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts and The Barre Center for Buddhist Studies. In this episode, Eric and Sharon discuss her book Real Happiness At Work: Meditations for Accomplishment, Achievement, and Peace. But wait, there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you Sharon Salzberg and I Discuss How to Bring Lovingkindness to Your Life … Her book, Real Happiness At Work: Meditations for Accomplishment, Achievement, and Peace. Lovingkindess is the fundamental sense of connectedness to ourselves and each other Compassion is recognizing the universal vulnerability of ourselves and each other The fundamental teaching of “everyone wants to be happy“ Remembering that it’s never to late to make a change How the mind is naturally radiant and pure The “visitors” that obscure our mind The essential question of asking what we really need to be happy How mindfulness is about training to find “the place in the middle” Balancing repression and indulgence in our emotions Whether Buddhism teaches that desire is the core problem Making decisions from a “climate of wisdom” The four types of enemies (outer, inner, secret, and most secret) How to deal with these enemies The importance of setting intentions Watching our thoughts like an elderly person watches children in a park How the difference between happiness and misery depends on where we place our attention. Sharon Salzberg links: Sharon’s Website Twitter Facebook By purchasing products and/or services from our sponsors, you are helping to support The One You Feed and we greatly appreciate it. Thank you! If you enjoyed this conversation with Sharon Salzberg, check out these other episodes: Discovering Our Essence with A. H. Almaas Inner Freedom Through Mindfulness with Jack KornfieldSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In case you're just recently joining us, or however long you've been a listener of the show, you may not realize that we have years and years of incredible episodes in our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that we've decided to handpick one of our favorites that may be new to you, but if not, it's definitely worth another listen. We hope you'll enjoy this episode with Sharon Salzberg. You can learn how to start over. You can learn how to begin again, and that's the most important thing. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance

of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, And does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead.

The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest today is Sharon Salzberg, one of the world's best-known Buddhist teachers and a leader in meditation retreats worldwide since 1974. She teaches both intensive awareness practice, Vipassana or insight meditation, and the profound cultivation of loving-kindness and compassion. She is a co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society in Bar, Massachusetts, and the Bar Center for Buddhist Studies. Sharon's latest book is Real Happiness at Work, Meditations for Accomplishment, Achievement,

and Peace. Hi, Sharon. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm very happy to have you on. I have read your books for a number of years now and visited the meditation center that you were a co-founder of, so this is exciting for me to get you on. We'll start the show like we always do with the parable.

There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, In life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second. Then he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I think I have a somewhat unusual take on it,

as well as maybe a more common source of strength and inspiration from it. The unusual take is the so-called bad wolf, you know, where rather than feeling hatred or disdain or kind of incredible dislike for that aspect, those qualities, learning a kind of incredible dislike for that aspect, those qualities, learning a kind of compassionate awareness so that that wolf may not be overpowering, it may not take over, but it can sort of accompany one in a gentle way throughout one's journey. So there's that part, which I think is somewhat more unusual.

The more usual one, which does give me a source of inspiration and strength is the concept of choice. You know that so many forces may arise in our minds and so many different kinds of conditioning and habit and so on. But we really do have a choice and we have a tremendous amount of power because of how we might relate to those different forces. Some we do want to nourish and nurture and strengthen, and others we want to more gently let go of and not have them be so strong. So you have written a lot of books about a lot of things and given countless talks really across the spectrum of Buddhist ideas. But one of the things you're probably most known for is the idea of loving-kindness. Can you just share briefly what that means to you now? You've been talking about it and writing about it for a long time, so what does it mean

to you now after all these years? That's an interesting question. My first book was called Loving-Kindness, and it came out 20 years ago, and I'm working on a book now called Real Love. So it's almost like that very question is permeating my day. I think of loving kindness most profoundly as a sense of connection. And I think about all the ways we are connected in that I or we experience connection in life, which, you know, isn't necessarily something mystical or spiritual, but just through economic understanding or environmental understanding or the ways we see our lives really have something to do with one another. And I try every day to, with that sense, see how I act with people one-on-one or collectively. How much attention am I paying? How much am I recognizing? Yeah, we do have something to do with one another. And

because my work is so centered around loving kindness, a lot of what I try to emphasize is loving kindness is not a weakness. It doesn't make us silly. It doesn't make us give in to things, but it's its own kind of strength to recognize connection and to respond from that place. Now, loving kindness is often, you know, it's used synonymously with compassion often. And, you know, there's been teachers in the Buddhist school who have referred to something called idiot compassion. Help me understand the difference between loving kindness and idiot compassion. Okay, well, first, there's actually a distinction between loving kindness and compassion. Great. Although they're very close, and they certainly

support one another. Loving kindness is that fundamental sense of connectedness with ourselves and with others, ultimately with all beings. And it's often based on the recognition that everybody actually wants to be happy. We make incredible mistakes because of the force of ignorance. Like we forget where happiness is to be found or we can't figure it out to begin with, but everybody actually wants to be happy that we all share this. And compassion is considered the trembling or the quivering of the heart in response to seeing pain or suffering. So it's a movement of the heart and it's a movement toward to see if we can be of help. And that's based not so much on seeing everybody wants to be happy, but on recognizing our universal vulnerability, how everybody is vulnerable to change, to loss. We don't all share the same measure of grief or unhappiness.

That's clear. But everybody is vulnerable. So compassion is not like a top-down experience um it's an equalizing experience and so compassion has a kind of tenderness around the sense of seeing suffering or the possibility of suffering and that's one of the distinctions between loving kindness and compassion uh somebody once said compassion is love that experiences suffering that opens to suffering idiot compassion was a phrase of trump um it's tibetan lama uh really talking about when compassion is not accompanied by wisdom and i think one of the things to understand with loving kindness or compassion is that they're not meant to define what action will take to something, some provocation or some situation.

They're talking about the heart space that we're coming from and the motivation or the intention. So you might be coming from a genuinely compassionate place, and your discernment, your understanding, your best guess of the most skillful way to act in that context, in that moment's really fierce, really strong. Saying no, having a boundary, doesn't mean you're not coming from a compassionate place, it just means that's what wisdom is telling you to act with. And so the idea of idiot compassion is more like you think you always have to say yes, and you have to be kind of squishy, and you have to just give in all the time, or give them all your money, or whatever it might be.

Yeah, that idea that everybody wants to be happy and that everybody suffers was one of those teachings that I think changed me on a pretty profound level when I really got it. And I go back to it all the time as, you know, just looking at people and going, well, underneath, if you strip everything else away, that's the fundamental truth of all of us. And we can all relate with that. And it's a really powerful teaching. Yeah, I think it is very powerful. And it's very interesting just to use it. You're in a meeting or something, and you look around the table, you look at the people in the room, and you think, well, you want to be happy too. And you want to be happy too. And what does that change? What does that do? Yep. It certainly helps us not feel so isolated or different. I'm going to read a couple lines

from one of your writings that we talk on this show a lot about changing habits and, you know, the voices in our head, the things that we say to ourselves over and over. And I just found this a really moving thing. So I'll just read it to you and then maybe you can elaborate upon it. really moving thing. So I'll just read it to you and then maybe you can elaborate upon it. It is never too late to turn on the light. Your ability to break an unhealthy habit or turn off an old tape doesn't depend on how long it has been running. A shift in perspective doesn't depend on how long you've held on to the old view. When you flip the switch in that attic, it doesn't matter whether it's been dark for 10 minutes, 10 years, or 10 decades. The light still illuminates the room and banishes the murkiness, letting you see the things you couldn't see before.

It is never too late to take a moment to look. Wow, I said that. That's great. Yeah, it's just, I love that idea of it doesn't matter how long it's been happening. It's always worth trying to make a change. I think it's really true. And one of the things I've loved about meditation 9,000 breaths before your mind wanders. It's usually like two, right? And then you're just gone.

You're way gone. And then comes this magic moment when you realize, oh, I haven't really been with the breath. oh, I haven't really been with the breath. And that's considered the crucial moment because that's the moment we have the chance to, first of all, forgive ourselves, gently let go, and come back to start over. It's a sense of renewal. It's a sense of resilience. And you have to do it a billion times.

You just do it over and over and over again. And I think that's one of the most important things we ever do in meditation practice, because that's the kind of thing we take right into our life. You know, you have an aspiration, you blow it. You have to start over. You have to begin again. Something happens and you fall down and you have to pick yourself up. You have to begin again. I think the way I say it now in life is that I don't really believe anything in life is a straight shot. We're always having to start over and start over and start over. So in some ways, meditation practice, for me and for many people I've witnessed, really it forms the training ground for that ability. And that's why it's never too late. Coming back is coming back. It doesn't matter if you've been gone for an hour or, or 10 weeks, you know, you're back. Yep. I think that's so powerful. And we, one of the things I notice in a lot of people that I

work with in and myself is this is sort of all or nothing mindset. When we make a mistake, it's like, you just, oh, screw it. Right. I, you know, I blew, you know, I messed up and you just drop everything and walk away versus recognizing that's just part of the path. It's going to happen. It's normal. And, you know, just keep, keep moving forward. Which I think, I think that's the essential lesson. And I, it's interesting, I think even the way we frame things like in language, because, and I too do it, but, you know, I hear people say, they ask questions like, how can I keep this level of mindfulness? Or how can I maintain this kind of concentration after the retreat? And I always say, it's not going to happen, you know, don't even think that way.

It's not going to happen. But you can learn how to start over. You can learn how to begin again. And that's the most important thing. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way

to the floor we got the answer will space junk block your cell signal the astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer we talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth plus does tom cruise really do his own stunts his stuntman reveals the answer and you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park.

Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really.

No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign Jason bobblehead. It's called really no really and you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You talk about the idea that and it's it's the it's the basic Buddhist concept that are not our minds are naturally radiant but that we have I've heard you refer to them as visitors who come and sort of obscure that view and you talk about how a it's really

natural that those visitors come and and be not fighting them so much can you talk a little bit about what those visitors that obscure our mind are and your thoughts on the best way to handle them? There's a beautiful quotation from the Buddha I've always liked where he said, the mind is naturally radiant and pure. The mind is shining. It's because of visiting forces that we suffer. I just loved it because as soon as I heard it,

I have this image of myself sitting happily at home, minding my own business, and then there's a knock at the door. So I get up and I open the door and there's greed, hatred, jealousy, all those kinds of visitors that we are so tempted, first of all, to fling open the door and knock, only to find that the visitor then comes in through the window or down through the chimney or somehow makes its presence known. So I've often thought of that skill of what happens just as we open the door and we see something like greed or fear or rage or hostility, jealousy, they're visiting. Can we remember who actually lives here, remember who we are in effect in a deeper way,

stay centered, recognize, this is what I meant about the so-called bad wolf, not freak out and not be afraid of the visitor and not hate them, but realize I'm not going to let you take over. Right. You know, you can just go. And there are whole schools of Buddhist methodology which, to vastly oversimplify it, would basically say, invite the visitor in for a meal.

Keep an eye on them so they don't take over, but you don't have to be so afraid. And I was once teaching, actually here at the Insight Meditation Society, and I said that someone in the room didn't like that. So I said, how about invite them in for a cup of tea? And they didn't like that either. And they said, how about a cup of tea to go? So I said, that's okay. How about, you know, just give them a cup of tea to go. The idea is that our own resistance and resentment and fear actually makes that visitor stronger. Yep. And it's better to have a calmer, more balanced, compassionate relationship.

Right. That saying, you know, what you resist persists, you know, seems to really be true. You talk about an essential question to ask ourselves. And this is not one that I have done a whole lot. So I find it really intriguing to think about. But the question is, what do I really need right now, in this moment to be happy? I knew you were gonna say that. When you started, I thought, what is that essential question? essential question. Yes, I use that question a lot. And I find it very profound, partly because I think we have so many kind of manufactured desires in a way. We're told by society or other people or the culture that we need certain things in order to be happy. And we don't necessarily question that. And so much of our life

can be in a pursuit of those very things. You know, we need a certain level of fame, we need a certain kind of stature, we need success as packaged in a certain way. We need this many objects. And I just had a move, a physical move from one apartment, which I sometimes sublet an apartment in New York City, even though I live in Massachusetts. And I had to leave it. So that meant everything had to leave. So I was just shocked. And I made all those determinations, like I'm going to give away half those books. It's ridiculous. But we're taught, you need this much accumulation. You need these many things. And then you'll be perfectly happy.

And it takes, first of all, a kind of courage and a great strength. And it's so liberating to step back from that and say, what do I really need in order to be happy? And, you know, and we take that to psychological and emotional realms, too. And we take that to psychological and emotional realms, too. Like, you know, maybe we've been taught that vengeance is strength and endless competition is happiness. But let's take a look. How happy does it make me, actually? Yeah, I love that idea particularly, too, of, you know, what do I need in this moment? Because if I stop and I think about life, that's such a grand thing and it's easy to think,

well, I could need that and that would be good. But if I stop and go right now, right where I sit, what do I need to be happy? And I realized that in the moment, if the visitors weren't maybe so present, I would have everything I would need. It's right here. There's nothing, you know, the moment can be enough if we allow it.

Well, the visitors may be present, but if they weren't so overpowering, you know. Right. That's another way of finding that kind of happiness. There's a couple questions that come up on this show over and over again that I ask because I'm particularly intrigued by them or I wrestle with them. One is there's this idea of dealing with emotions. And on one hand, there is sort of the idea of repressing the emotions, you know, pretending they're not there, ignoring them, you know, making them go away via alcohol, whatever. And then on the far other extreme is this idea of sort of indulging in them,

wallowing in them. How do you find the middle ground between those two areas? I think that any training in mindfulness is precisely that. Actually, we sometimes call mindfulness the place in the middle. And it's practice. We practice and practice and practice. And, you know, craving for alcohol is a harder place to practice. We start with, you know, whatever is happening right now and work toward the harder places as well. But that's the precise practice. Something comes up, we have the habit either diving into it, getting overwhelmed by it, especially having it guide our choices and our actions, or we hate it, we fear it, we can't stand it. And to find that place in the middle where we can say, there's a visitor. I remember who lives here, but something is visiting or

this is what's happening right now. This is just the truth of the present moment. this is what's happening right now. This is just the truth of the present moment. Look at that. I can be aware of it. I don't have to dive into it. I don't have to fight it. Look at that. That's almost like the definition of mindfulness. And, you know, rather than thinking of mindfulness as this kind of magical quality that some people have and other people don't, I just see it as a training. And that, you know, we just practice and practice and practice. Yeah, I think that's certainly the case, that it is a training. My ability to do it has gotten a lot better simply by doing it. I mean, I've been reading, you know, mindfulness-related things.

You know, you wrote your first book 20 years ago. I probably started reading books like that about 20 years ago. And for years on and off, I had just had the most inconsistent meditation practice. You know, I'd meditate hard for a month and then not the rest of the year or, and finally, over the last few years, I've just gotten to every day, I'm going to sit down and do this for a little while. And it's amazing what that consistent day after day practice does. It's not, you know, it's not anything. It's not like a miracle. It's not like I'm always happy. It's just that kind of like you said, I can, I can see more clearly what's happening in my brain. I can go, oh, this is what this is. And this is what that

is. And, and it doesn't make, you know, I think one of the things that I thought was, if I became mindful or meditated, I wouldn't feel bad. Once I recognize like, oh, I'm sad that I would no longer be sad. And that's not really the case. It's just that, like, I like what you said, I'm better able to think about what my reaction, my behavior is around those things. I think that's totally true. And it's so, first of all, I think it's great that you've been practicing consistently, truly, because it's also not easy, you know. Right. But I think it's the most important thing, and it also makes it the most inclusive thing, you know, because it's not up to, you know, to succeed or to make progress in meditation

doesn't mean you have to be a certain kind of person or have a certain kind of life or a certain sort of situation. It means you have to be a certain kind of person or have a certain kind of life or a certain sort of situation it means you have to do the practice and anybody who practices can develop those strengths and it's within everyone's capacity to do that and so um even though it can be incredibly hard to find the time which is so ironic because we're not talking about eight hours a day you know right you're doing like 10 or 20 minutes a day. It can be very hard to find the time, or you might feel like you're too busy, there's too much else to do,

or even sometimes people say, I felt selfish taking the time for myself. It's really an incredibly important thing to do. So if I'm just having casual conversation, and I sort of explain some of the concept of Buddhism and the Four Noble Truths, one of the things that comes up a lot is this idea of, well, am I just supposed to not want anything then? You know, if we say that, you know, that it's this craving that is at the root of our

suffering, people are, am I just not supposed to want anything? And even myself, I look at the world, and it looks to me like this idea of growing and striving and changing is fundamental. It seems like it's built into the fabric of the world, of nature. And so how do you—I always say to people, well, I'm sure a good Buddhist teacher could tell you why. That's not exactly what it means better than I can. So now I'm going to ask you to tell me why that's not true. Yeah, you're right. Well, part of it is a confusion of language. You know, there are lots of words in Pali or Sanskrit that are very precise,

and maybe not so much in English. So the question of wanting or desire is, I mean, that's a word that is used to translate lots of different words in Sanskrit or Pali. Pali is the language of the original Buddhist texts. And so a lot would depend on one's motivation. You could want and aspire and have tremendous intensity around something really positive. around something really positive and you can want and aspire and have tremendous intensity about something that will really damage you or really harm others. And so the intensity is itself kind of neutral. It depends on what's accompanying it.

You know, so like I'm actually looking at that beautiful painting behind your shoulder since we cannot see each other on Skype. And, you know, I could do a riff on I really want that. Wow, that's kind of incredible. Wow, I have to have that. And, you know, there's not really room in my apartment in New York City or my house in massachusetts so maybe i need a new apartment in new york city and you know maybe i need a bigger apartment in new york city with more wall space so i can hang more things but that would be kind of expensive doesn't matter right so that's the kind of wanting we get into because we're not thinking about what we might have to compromise in order to get what we want,

or who we might hurt, or what we might be giving up to get what we want. But we can think about that, you know, and that doesn't mean you never buy the painting. It means that you do it in a climate of wisdom. Yeah, and I think the other thing that I've realized is I used to think that all striving and ambition came out of a place of deep dissatisfaction. And I think that I've found that striving and ambition and all that can come out of a place of the joy of creating, of making, of changing, not out of the I hate where I'm at place. I think that's very true. And as you started speaking, the word creation came into my mind, creativity. And so I would completely agree with you.

I think that there is that creative impulse and even compassion. In many translations, it's described as compassionate energy. It's a manifesting energy. So, you know, compassion doesn't mean you sit around and feel bad. It means you go toward to see if you can be of help. And that doesn't mean you go into in order to burn up, you know, or crash. But you go toward. It's got a manifestation of creativity to it.

If it just meant sitting around feeling bad, then you're not helping anybody, including yourself. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you. And the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too?

Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really.

Yeah, Really. No Really. Go to reallyn, really. Yeah. No, really. Go to really, no, really.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign, Jason bobblehead. It's called really no, really. And you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. One of your recent books was written with Robert Thurman. It was called love your enemies, how, How to Break the Anger Habit and Be a Whole Lot Happier. And in that book, you guys define four types of enemies. I was wondering if you could walk us through those. system modeled within Tibetan Buddhism, the first kind of enemy is the outer enemy, which is the clear conventional enemy. Someone's tried to hurt you or feels like a threat to you or those you love.

The inner enemy is our own rage, our own anger, our own fear, the ways that we get overcome. And that doesn't mean the appearance of those states, right? Those are just visitors. But when we get overcome by, we get defined by, they become chronic states. They affect our choices. They really define our lives. That's the problem. That becomes like an enemy because we've we've like given over

a lot of our life's energy to this one particular way of reacting um so that's like the inner enemy the secret enemy within that formulation is the construct of a separate self that we live under the idea that we're independent rather than interdependent, that we should be in control of things, that there's something permanent and unyielding within us that we can count on. That's an enemy because it's all untrue. And so once we're living at variance to what's actually true, we suffer. That's what makes something an enemy it

produces suffering and then uh as bob described it the most secret enemy because that's a tibetan system it's the outer the inner the secret the most secret the most secret enemy is a kind of self-loathing where we don't understand the actual capacity we're said to have for change, for wisdom, for love, for growth. And so, of course, that capacity isn't always realized, and it may be covered over, it may be hidden, it may be hard to find, it may be hard to trust, but it's said it's always, always there. No matter what we may go through, it's always there. And so when we don't appreciate that, then that's also a kind of enemy. And you guys say that regardless of what type of

enemy it is, the method to overcome those is, you know, follows a similar format. Can you walk us through briefly what, you know, what is the right way to deal with those enemies? Well, I would take us back to, you know to sitting happily at home and you hear the knock at the door. Like a visitor has appeared. So there are a couple of things in the Buddhist statement that are really remarkable. The mind is naturally radiant and pure. The mind is shining. It's because of visiting forces that we suffer.

The mind is shining. It's because of visiting forces that we suffer. First of all, a remarkable thing is the appreciation that these forces are just visiting. They come and go. They may visit a lot, but they're still just visiting. They're not who we essentially are. And so we see something at play, and we remember, I don't have to fall into this, and I also don't have to fight it. I can find that middle way, that way of awareness to be with it, to recognize it, not get lost in it, not hate it, and then I'm free, even as it's going on. The other remarkable thing in that statement is that the Buddha said it's because of visiting forces that we suffer. He didn't say it's because of visiting forces that we're horrible people or we're terrible or we're worthless or anything like that. He said it's because of visiting forces that we suffer. That means compassion is always relevant. It's always appropriate, including compassion for ourselves.

is always relevant. It's always appropriate, including compassion for ourselves. Wonderful. So one of the things that you talk a lot about the idea of setting intentions, you say each decision we make, each action we take is born out of an intention. And then you kind of follow that with, we learn and grow and are transformed not so much by what we do, but why and how we do it. And I've just sort of started to be a little bit more exposed to this idea of intentions. Can you elaborate on that? It's kind of a subtle and crucial part of mindfulness training where you just turn some of your attention to where you're coming from, what's motivating you, what you want.

I say sometimes, like if I'm teaching in a company, a business, I say, you know, before you go into a major meeting or you have a big phone call, just ask yourself, what is it I want to see the most come from this encounter? Do I want to be seen as right? Do I want to be helpful? Do I want to be harmful? Do I want to be harmful? Do I want a resolution? It's just one way of beginning to see that, oh, there's a motivating element here that's going to contour everything I say and everything I refrain from saying. And we continually practice that way. Like, where am I coming from what is that I want because from the Buddhist point of view the motivation behind an action is a

crucial part of the action we don't think that way so much in the West but if you just look at something like generosity for example we know we can be generous from a whole variety of different motives and Buddhism would say that it's a different action depending on what's motivating it. Like I might give you a book out of my tremendous pile of books because I like you. Or maybe I'm giving it to you because I don't like you. And I think writing that first paragraph is going to be something that's going to upset you. Or maybe I can't bear the fact that I have so many books and I've just got to give them away. It's kind of random.

Or maybe I just gave a big lecture on generosity and all these people are looking at me and I want to be thought of as a generous person. Or I see you have that painting and I want the painting. And I think, well, maybe if I give you the book, you'll give me the painting. You know, the physical act of my hand reaching down, picking up an object and moving it forward is identical. But the heart space that it's coming from could be a million different things. And that really figures from the point of view of Buddhist psychology, that really figures in our assessment of the action. Yeah, and I really like that idea of just trying to be more intentional about,

like you said, what is it that I want out of this encounter, this moment, this day? You know, sometimes it's, well, I don't even do a good enough job on a broad scale, but I've just found it as I've gotten that idea lately of sort of going, okay, well, what sort of attention do I want to bring to the world today? Yeah, it's great. You share an analogy that I don't quite remember where you heard it from, but I thought it was very entertaining and insightful, which was watch your thoughts like a very elderly person watching little kids play at the park. Yeah, that's actually a meditation instruction from Tibetan Buddhism,

the park. Yeah, that's actually a meditation instruction from Tibetan Buddhism, which I usually use, actually, not even so exclusively as a meditation instruction. I use it as a description of the combination of balance and compassion that I think we're looking for in action. So, let's say you're a really elderly person, and you're sitting in a park, you're watching children play. You know, you've lived a life. That's what being elderly implies in this example. You've lived a life. You've probably had to let go of a lot of things. You've earned some wisdom through life. And there you are, you're watching these children play and you see this little kid completely freaking out because they've broken a shovel. So you're not all children play and you see this little kid completely freaking out because they've broken a shovel so you're not all cold and mean you don't go over them and say hey kid

it's just a shovel you know wait till you have a real problem you're kind you're tender you're present you're caring but you also don't fall down on the ground sobbing um because you know what shovels break that's a part of life. You have perspective. You have spaciousness. You have wisdom. So I talk about that combination of spaciousness and kindness as certainly I as a person, as an individual, if I were seeking help from somebody and I told them my very sad story, I wouldn't want them to say, hey, it's just a shovel. But I also would not want them to fall down on the ground sobbing. Then I'd really freak out. I want that sense of caring and tenderness and kindness and also spaciousness and some glimpse

of something beyond the immediate situation I find myself in. And so I think that in general is what we want as human beings when we seek help. And I think that's something we can also remember we can offer as we offer help. You know, people really don't get served by our falling down on the ground and freaking out. You know, but it's not coldness. It's not iciness. get served by our falling down on the ground and freaking out. You know, but it's not coldness. It's not iciness. It's a real caring but with perspective. Exactly.

So I think I'd like to end with one of your statements again and ask you just to go into a little bit more detail about it. But it says that the difference between misery and happiness depends on what we do with our attention. I think that's true. We, you know, for example, something may arise in our minds, something uncomfortable, something distressing, one of those unpleasant visitors. And we may add so much shame and so much distress and feeling i should have

been able to stop it been meditating for more than 40 years for god's sake why is it still there that we've taken an uncomfortable situation and made it a million times worse i'm all alone i'm isolated i'm the only one who's ever felt it it it's a million times worse. Whereas we can also have that uncomfortable thing arise, whatever it is, that distressing visitor, and we can envelop ourselves with a sense of presence and balance and kindness, remembering we're not all alone, that this is a part of the human condition. We can have compassion for ourselves as well as for others. And it's a whole other world, even though that same thing is arising. And so too,

with beautiful and wonderful and lovely things that arise, we can be so distracted, we can hardly take them in, or we can really honor that. Look at that. You know, that's the wolf to feed. That's a capacity I have. And so everything really depends on what we do with our attention. Well, I think that is a great place to wrap up this episode. Sharon, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us for all the writing and work that you do. And it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much. All right. Take care. Bye. Bye-bye. You can learn more about Sharon Salzberg and this podcast at oneufeed.net slash Sharon.

And that's the name Sharon, not like, hey, you sharing this pizza with me or do I need to go get my own? I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

The Really Know Really Podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.