The One You Feed - How to Find Hope and Kinship with Father Greg Boyle and Fabian Devora

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

Father Gregory Boyle is an American Jesuit priest and the founder of Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, the largest gang-intervention, rehabilitation, and reentry program in the world. He has received the California Peace Prize and been inducted into the California Hall of Fame. In 2014, the White House named Boyle a Champion of Change. He received the University of Notre Dame’s 2017 Laetare Medal, the oldest honor given to American Catholics. He is the acclaimed author of Tattoos on the Heart, Barking to the Choir, and his latest book,  Forgive Everyone Everything. Fabian Debora is the artist and illustrator of the book, Forgive Everyone Everything. His work has been showcased in solo and group exhibitions throughout the US and abroad.  Fabian served previously served as a counselor and the Director of Substance Abuse Services & Programming and a mentor at Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles and is now the Executive Director of Homebody Art Academy. But wait, there’s more! The episode is not quite over!! We continue the conversation and you can access this exclusive content right in your podcast player feed. Head over to our Patreon page and pledge to donate just $10 a month. It’s that simple and we’ll give you good stuff as a thank you! Father Greg Boyle & Fabian Debora and I Discuss How to Find Hope and Kinship His book, Forgive Everyone Everything The organization he founded, Homeboy Industries, to rehabilitate gang members Hope and how our focus must not be on outcomes How life is about removing the blindfold to see the goodness within us Joy is the love of being loving Equanimity and learning to not grasp at our pain Defining kinship as deep connection with others How we need to acknowledge privelege Fabian’s journey of recovery and his work with Homeboy Industries How his art represents his journey and lived experiences How he tells a story through his art His responsibility of an artist to combat stereotypes How he maintains hope amidst tragedy The legacy that he hopes to create for his family and community How kinship is a circle where everyone belongs Links: Father Greg’s Website Instagram Twitter Fabian's Website Fabian's Instagram By purchasing products and/or services from our sponsors, you are helping to support The One You Feed and we greatly appreciate it. Thank you! If you enjoyed this conversation with Father Greg Boyle and Fabian Debora, please check out these other episodes: Human Nature and Hope with Rutger Bregman Donna Hylton on Healing and HopeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A homie the other day said, you know, life is removing the blindfold, which I think is excellent. But the question is, what do you see once the blindfold is removed? It's not the error of your ways. It's not you are a bad person. What you see is unshakable goodness. That's your essential truth. Welcome to The One You Feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like, garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet, for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear.

We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast

is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Gregory Boyle, an American Jesuit priest and the founder of Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, which is the largest gang intervention, rehabilitation, and re-entry program in the world. He's received the California Peace Prize and has been inducted into the California Hall of Fame. I've hoped that Greg Boyle could be on the show for a long time because he is the acclaimed author of two incredible books, Tattoos on the Heart and Barking to the Choir, and now has his third book with our second guest on this episode, artist Fabian DeBora called Forgive Everyone Everything. This episode is presented in two parts, so I'll be back

to introduce Fabian with more detail later in the show. Hi, Father Greg. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's great to have you on. We're going to be talking about your latest book, which is called Forgive Everyone Everything. But before we get into that, let's start like we always do with a parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent talking with her grandchild, and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparent, says, well, hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a

second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, certainly, you know, you want to have part of your practice to be connected and anchored in your true self and loving. But things like hatred and greed and all those things are really signs of someone not being well. And so it's more about health than hate. It's more about healing, you know, not to demonize, but we kind of name things incorrectly. So I think it's important to be able to get to a place where we understand, get underneath things, you know. A lot of times people will say the cruelty is the point. And I would say, no, the cruelty points

to something. It indicates something. It indicates that something needs healing. So, you know, you don't overturn hate. You treat it. You heal it. Yeah. On the one hand, I get it, you know, because part of your own practice is to stay anchored in the fact that kindness is the only non-delusional response to everything. So, you want to be kind, kind, kind. And when you are engaged in other delusional things like rage and anger and righteousness and all that kind of stuff, self-righteousness, it's an indicator that one is not as healthy as you would hope to be. So it's a good parable. I've always liked that one. Yeah, it reminds me of the phrase from Dr. Gabor Mate, who says, don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. You know, if people are acting in a way,

or even ourselves, if we're acting in a way that appears to be, you know, any of those sort of greed and hatred and anger is to sort of get, as you say, what's going on here? What might be causing this to come up in me? Yeah, the homies always talk about finding the thorn underneath. So if it's about the thorn underneath, you're not exactly being toppled by bad behavior. Yeah. So here at Homeboy, we don't want to create a community of those who are behaving well. You know, it's a it's a community of beloved belonging, not beloved behaving. And so you want to get underneath and say, well, what language is that violence speaking? Yeah. But we're so in love with the narrative that says we're going to address these things head on.

But they're not about head on, they're about underneath. So I learned that a long time ago when people wanted to address gang violence, which is why we have mass incarceration. But gang violence is about a lethal absence of hope. So how about we delivered hope to folks for whom hope was foreign? Yep. I was wondering if we could start off by having you tell a story that's in the book about Cisco and George, because I think it really speaks to so much of the work that you do and how you have to really hold a lot at the same time in order to function in the world that you're in. Yes. A homie was killed and he was there in the middle of the streets with his pregnant lady who was rocking him. By the time I got there and the cops were trying to pull her away from his body, he was

killed not far from his home. And I remembered the next day I had to go do a baptism at a probation camp, a detention facility. His real name was Gabriel and I had to baptize him. And after I baptized him, I had to walk him outside and sit him down on a bench and tell him that his brother had been killed the night before. And this kid waited for me, you know, to baptize him. And there was something about pouring water over his head and anointing his forehead with oil. And what is it that you ask the church to do as baptism? And there was something kind of efficacious about it all. I guess I expected him to flail, but he didn't.

He cried, but he had been already softened into a corner where he was able to put death in its place, feel the grief for sure, but not have to go to a place of vengeance or retaliation. He just let the pain in, and then he moved on. Yeah. So, you talk about hope a lot, and I was wondering if we could share a little bit about how we stay with hope. You write in the book that in the monastic tradition, the highest form of sanctity is to live in hell and not lose hope. And that sounds deeply admirable. It also sounds deeply difficult. How do you hang on to hope in the midst of when you are or your community is walking through hell?

Well, the problem comes sometimes when we're really thinking about results and success and evidence-based outcomes, when our focus is on how will things turn out. That's not a good recipe for staying hopeful. So our hope is in our being faithful. So, you know, Mother Teresa says we're not called to be successful. We're called to be faithful. So you want to find the fidelity to a certain approach to loving without measure and without regret. And if you can find that place, then outcomes don't really

matter. It doesn't matter how things turn out because you've been anchored in a methodology and a tenderness and a way of proceeding that you believe in, that you're dedicated to. But I think people align their hope with outcomes. This didn't turn out well. And now I don't feel hopeful. And I think it's a bad business. It's why people burn out because it's about them and they try to save, rescue and fix. And that's a bad business, I think. But instead, you want to be able to just love being loving. And then that's eternally replenishing. And then you're always anchored in the present moment, delighting in the person in front of you. It's not hard to do.

It's hard to remember to do it. And that's kind of the key. In recovery, they say one day at a time. And I think that's way too long. It's really one breath. With every breath, you delight in your kind. And it's hard to remember to do that. But once you do it, it's where the

joy is. That's why you keep coming back to it. Yeah. I've heard you talk about being addicted to, I think you call it once and for allness, as if we're going to do one thing or we're going to have one outcome and then everything is solved. And from there on out, it's clear sailing. And that's not the way any of this really works. Yeah, well, I think part of it is we think everything is once and for all, you know, like even our prayer in the morning that we pray and then we're good to go for the day. Then we're surprised that the two hours in, you're annoyed at everybody, you know, so so much for that, you know, or any decision you make is kind of once and for all. And it isn't. Again, I always connect it to breathing. So much for that, you know, or any decision you make is kind of once and for all.

And it isn't. Again, I always connect it to breathing. It's like you cherish with every breath. It's exceedingly hard to remember to do it, but that's why you call it a practice. You work at it. I think that's true about anything. You know, people think faith or I'm saved. And I go, no, I don't think it works that way. I think, you know, you have to somehow nurture it and care for it and tend to it and make sure that it's a flame that stays bright and alive. where his whole life pivoted, right? But there were a thousand small decisions before that that

led me there. And there have been thousands and thousands and thousands of little decisions since then that have kept me sober. It doesn't make a great movie, but that's the reality of how we change. Absolutely. And then it's why recovery is such a tentative thing, you know, and I applaud you. And I think it's really hard, you know, somehow that's why people stay connected to the meetings, to a sponsor, you know, and try to kind of watch people, places and things and all the stuff that can kind of in a heartbeat, bring you down again. And so it's important. Yeah. So in your work, I'm certain that you have seen many, many people transform their lives. And I don't even know if I want to use the word seen many, many people transform their lives.

And I don't even know if I want to use the word get better, but let's use the word you used earlier, get healthier. So you've seen a lot of that. And then I'm sure you've also seen lots and lots of people who were offered that opportunity that for whatever reason were unable or unwilling to take it. I'm curious if you have any theories about why some people are able to make these sort of big changes and others aren't. Because it's been a mystery to me my whole time in recovery. Like, why am I sober, but so many people I know are dead? And I don't think it's

because I'm better, right? So there's some mysterious stuff going on. I'm curious what you've concluded after watching that for years. You know, I think a homie the other day said, you know, life is removing the blindfold, which I think is excellent. But the question is, what do you see once the blindfold is removed? It's not the error of your ways. It's not you are a bad person. What you see is unshakable goodness. That's your essential truth. And then you become that truth. You inhabit that truth. But blindfolds are tricky because I can't force them off somebody.

Somebody has to say, oh, this is a blindfold. And that'll reach back to the knot and untie it. So no amount of me wanting that guy to have a life will ever be the same as that guy wanting to have one. I always say ours is a God who waits and who am I not to wait? And in recovery, they say it takes what it takes. In gang recovery, it's not any different. It's, you know, it can be whatever the birth of a son, the death of a friend, a long stretch in prison, it takes what it takes. And you and I both know people who, you know, did 20 rehabs until it took and it had nothing to do with, oh, I finally landed at a good rehab. No,

it was when you're ready, it'll take. Yeah, but you have to be ready. So, you know, we don't force anybody to walk through our doors. But once they walk through our doors, you know, it's ticker tape parade and red carpet. But they're the only ones who can make that move. And it's interesting, you know, because homeboy is exactly like an AA meeting. There's somebody who's 20 years sober, somebody who's 20 minutes sober, and somebody who's drunk, but they're there. That has the feel of it, young and old and people who are at different places of their own growth. Yeah. The ones that are always sort of the most heartbreaking for me are the people who, at least in recovery, they come to recovery, they make what looks to be a really

good effort at it, and it takes for a while, but then it doesn't. For me, that's always harder to watch than somebody who just simply won't even see it in the first place. It's like you felt the goodness. I saw you light up. I saw you come alive. And those are always the ones that kind of are hard for me. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's excruciating because, you know, I'll have moms come in here and say, my son is smoking meth and I need help. I said, where is he? Oh, he's at home asleep. And I go, boy, I know if you could check into a rehab for him, you would have been had done

it, you know, but it just doesn't work that way. It's tough because a lot of it has all sorts of multipliers around it, you know, so it's dual diagnosis and it's hard and it's like they're self-medicating and they have an underlying something. It's hard to do, but I don't know anything better than a community that cherishes. That's the context, that's the environment in which people can be transformed. I have never transformed anybody, but transformation has happened here, you know, because there's a kind of the contours of the place are really exceptional and they hold people and people feel safe and seen and then cherished and there's nothing better. That's how you get to some kind of flourishing joy

that nobody can take from you. Yeah. You've said before that in the end, all great spirituality is about what to do with our pain. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Well, you know, the highest form of spiritual maturity is tenderness. And so it's how we can kind of approach our pain, you know, and the Buddhists would talk about the source of our pain is really clinging. So how do we get to a place of freedom? How do we have a light grasp on life? St. Ignatius of Loyola would talk about, he calls it indifference. It's really a freedom that, you know, praise or blame, it's all the same. You know, hungry or well-fed, same thing.

Abundance or scarcity, it's the same. And so you want to have that equanimity where you see that things are the same and you don't cling to things turning out the way they do. And then in your loving, you know, you may kind of begin with service and then maybe you become kind of other centered and then maybe you become love centered. But the goal is to love being loving. That's where the joy is. So you want to arrive at that place so that you can somehow really inhabit the truth of who you are. And no bullet can pierce that and no four prison walls can keep that out. So that's where you want to end up. And so you just used a couple words in

close proximity there that I think are interesting. One is equanimity, right? Which is seen as a virtue, right? You use the word indifference, which we could say is part of the problem. I know you were talking about a particular type of indifference. Indifference is kind of a spiritual concept, which mainly is about freedom. It doesn't mean you don't care about somebody. Yeah. And so my question is, how do you have that deep love and also maintain some sort of equanimity? Is it that you learn to love without becoming attached? And I'm not speaking about romantic relationships here. I'm more speaking about the people that you work with that become close to your heart.

I just think there's something about having a light grasp on things. And in every aspect of your life, you know, in terms of, as I said earlier, about outcomes and how do things turn out. And when people burn out, not because they're hyper-compassionate, it's because they've allowed it to become about them. So they go to the margins to make a difference rather than go to the margins to be made different. And that's why people burn out. But we have this notion of compassion fatigue and, oh my gosh, you just are so giving and you're so loving and you're so compassionate. Well, I go, no, you've allowed it to become about you. It can't be about you. But if you go to the margins to receive people and to allow your heart to be altered and

to be reached by people at the margins, the widow, orphan, and stranger, if you go to the margins to receive people and to allow your heart to be altered and to be reached by people at the margins, the widow, orphan, and stranger. If you go to the margins to be impacted by those folks, then it's about us. It's not about you anymore. That's the goal. Service is the hallway, but kinship is the ballroom. That's where we're headed, a place of connection where there is no us and them. And you obliterate once and for all the illusion of separation, that there's distance between us. We want to bridge the distance. I love what you just said there. Service is the hallway. Kinship is the ballroom. For me, I would say that's God's dream come true. How do you get to the ballroom where we're so united? Say more about kinship. That's a word that shows up a lot in your writing. For people who that's a term that they don't really fully understand,

talk about what it means to you and why you think it's so important. Well, Jesus would say that you may be one is the hope. And it's about our union with each other. You know, in faith terms, it's not about God hoping that you'll praise God. No, the hope, the dream is that you be one. So kinship is like the kingdom of God, but kinship is where we're kin. It's funny, the early Christians used to greet each other with a big old fat, wet kiss on the lips. And I'm not recommending it, but I'm just

saying, you know, that's what they did. And the reason they did it was very intentional. They kissed each other on the lips because you only did that with your blood relatives. It was a way of saying we're kin. And it's kind of a beautiful image because that's the goal. The goal is not to get to heaven. The goal is to create a community of beloved belonging and to imagine a circle of compassion and then imagine nobody standing outside the circle. That's what kinship is about. No daylight separating us. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they

refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor we got the answer will space junk block your cell signal the astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer we talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth plus does tom cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's gonna drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome

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It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's been a long time that you've been in this work, so you may just say, like, I can't remember that far back. But, you know, one of the complaints is that privileged white people step into spaces, and the more modern term is, you know, you come in as a white savior, right? I'm curious whether that was sort of the way you entered this space and very quickly got it knocked out of you, or were you wise enough to come in realizing that wasn't what it was about in the first place? You know what, home, he had a dream about a darkened room and I had a flashlight and I aimed the flashlight, the beam of light on the light switch. And he went and he turned the light switch on and the room was flooded with light. And he's sobbing as he's telling me this story. And he said, the light's better than the darkness. Like he didn't know that to be the case. But I heard that dream and I said, oh, okay, I can't turn light switches on for people. I need to be content with the fact that

I own a flashlight and I know where to aim it. And that's it, period. You know, so that changed my life. I don't think I've ever had a moment like that in my whole life, where all of a sudden I went, oh, okay, I will totally change course right now. I don't think it was about savior so much. It's not how it works. You can't turn light switches on for people in a darkened room. You can utilize your flashlight, but only they can do that. So it was very liberating. And I've never been close to burnout since that homie told me that dream. The problem is, you know, our narrative, of course, is not about privilege. It's about character. You know, like I grew up in L.A. and I never joined a gang. Well, it's absurd. There's no chance I would join a gang, not because of moral superiority. There's no chance I would join a gang, not because of moral superiority. So that narrative is goofball. You want to go, I won all these lotteries, parent lottery, sibling lottery, zip code lottery, educational lottery.

Yeah, yeah, there's no comparison. So that's important to acknowledge privilege. You know, kind of a phenomenon probably in the last five years where I go to university campuses, especially Catholic universities, and there's a kind of a phenomenon probably in the last five years where I go to university campuses, especially Catholic universities, and there's a kind of a privilege paralysis. Whereas 15 years ago, you know, people were set on fire and they were going, oh my God, I want to make a contribution in the world. Then it became kind of like, who am I to go to the margins? And you don't go to the margins to save anybody or fix or rescue. It's important if you're privileged to go to the margins? And you don't go to the margins to save anybody or fix or rescue. It's important if you're privileged to go to the margins to have your heart altered.

So that's important, I think, you know. But paralysis should be unacceptable. I agree. And I have seen a similar thing. Well, exactly what you said, people who I think are well-intentioned become afraid to step into a space because of the way that this privilege discussion has happened. I heard you say once, somebody was asking you about, you know, did you feel like you were qualified as a white man and a non-gang member and all that to kind of show up and quote unquote, speak to these people? And you said very, I'm paraphrasing, but very eloquently, something along the lines of, a non-gang member and all that to kind of show up and quote unquote speak to these people. And you said very, I'm paraphrasing, but very eloquently something along the lines of, I didn't show up to speak. I showed up to listen. And anybody can do that. And that really is a powerful way of orienting towards things.

Well, I remember one time I was with a group of university students. They were here doing an immersion thing. And then I was called in to kind of answer questions and stuff. And a young woman with a kind of a tone said, what makes you qualified to do this work? And I didn't know what to say. But then I just reached down to my wrist and I kind of put my fingers on my pulse. And I said, a pulse, that's what makes me qualified to do this work. So if you're the proud owner of a pulse, you're qualified. The problem comes when everything becomes so rarefied and specialized. And when people say, step aside, let me handle this. No, it's a human

thing. So that example came from gang members who were doing hardcore gang intervention work, Temple came from gang members who were doing hardcore gang intervention work, as I was in the early days. And finally, I'm the only white guy and the rest are all gang members. And at one point they had a lot of respect for me because they knew I was doing the work. I was out there. But they said, you know, by the name with all due respect, the homies are going to listen to us more than they'll listen to you. the homies are going to listen to us more than they'll listen to you. And I always said the same thing. You're absolutely right. If the task is yakking at homeboys, but it isn't, it's listening, it's receiving, it's allowing your heart to be altered. So that's a whole other stance. And the stance is important. You know, it's not just where you stand, but how are you standing there? Yeah. Yeah. That idea of going to the margins for our own heart to be altered, that's a real takeaway

for me. It's an orientation. I mean, we talk about that in 12-step programs, right? We're helping other alcoholics, not because we're so great, but because that's the best thing we can do for ourselves. It turns out to be a beautifully bi-directional reciprocal relationship, but there is an absolute aspect of healing in it for the quote-unquote person who's been sober longer or the sponsor is, I'm not doing this because you so deeply need my help. I'm doing it because I deeply need you. Yeah, I think so. And then we're tempted to say,

oh my God, that's selfish. Yeah, yeah, that's as it should be. It should be selfish, you know, because then that's how it becomes exquisitely mutual that somehow in each other's company, we're walking each other home and we're returning each other to our own dignity and nobility. So I don't do that for you and you don't do that for me. It happens together. And obviously, I think that's important, you know, because it keeps us focused on the environment and the community and the place. Transformation wouldn't happen here if it weren't for this actual place where everybody is giving a dose. You know, a homie said there's an aroma here. is giving a dose, you know, a homie said there's an aroma here. Yeah, that's what it's like. There's an aroma. So you want to stay connected to the transformational place. Otherwise, it becomes the DMV, you know, and you just have anger management is window 49, you know, and now serving number 73. You know, it's like, no, it's everybody's helping each other. Everybody's walking each other home. And it's a beautiful thing to behold. So I'll ask you a kind of final question here as we

wrap up. And it's really about gratitude. And there's a couple parts to it. But the first is there's a thing that you wrote in the book about under the topic of gratitude, where you said, the hope is that homies won't just settle for answers, but instead hold out for meaning. So I'd like to start asking you, what do you mean by that? It's not about advice or here are three steps to get to that place. Know the truth of who you are and delight in it. And it's not about becoming a better person. It's about discovering your truth. Then you live from that truth. And that's meaningful. And no, it's not purpose. I found my purpose is to do this service thing. You know, it's not quite like that. It's more like I know who I am and nobody can

touch me now. And you want them to get to that sense of confidence in who they are. But it's not a mountain you climb where the top of the mountain is your best self. It's not about morality, which I think is really important. The moral quest has never kept us moral. It's just kept us from each other. So change the quest.

It's about health. I wanna be healthier today than I was yesterday. And then you kind of catch yourself, you know, Pema Chodron, who's a friend of mine, who's a monk, she always talks about catching yourself, you know, so that you can be more loving and true and open your heart. And that's the idea. But you don't have to become a good person. You already are a good person. But you might want to, you know, remove the blindfold and see that you are. Yeah. And what's the role of gratitude in all this for you? Well, I think gratitude is always the sign of health.

You know, there are many signs, but gratitude is one of them. Because then you know what you have. You know what you've been given. Then you can cherish it. You can savor it. You can rel cherish it. You can savor it. You can relish it. You can take care of it. And you can't do that unless you're grateful. Yeah, you quote a Peruvian priest who says,

only one kind of person can transform the world, the one with the grateful heart. Yeah, I think that's true. But in the end, all these things, we think they're about character and good person, bad person. But it's really about healthy person. And a healthy person can maintain a grateful heart. So we all are on a continuum of health and nobody is well until all of us are well. So how do we help each other move towards health and wholeness? I think that helps to frame it that way because otherwise, it's a battle between

good people and bad people, and that's nonsense. Yep, yep. Well, Father Greg, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to have you on. As I said before, I've admired your work for probably 10, 12 years now. So, thank you so much. And we were supposed to talk last time, and you had something come up. And so, I got to spend about 30 minutes with Fabian. And so this interview is going to have both of you in it. So it's going to be lovely. That's great. Thank you. I really happy to speak with you. Yeah. Take care. Thanks. And as promised for the second half of this episode is the interview with Fabian DeBora.

Fabian's work has been showcased in solo and group exhibitions throughout the United States and abroad, including Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, Kansas City, Brooklyn, and all throughout Latin America. Fabian served as a counselor and the director of substance abuse services and programming, as well as a mentor at Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles for a decade. He is now the executive director of Homeboy Art Academy, pursuing and developing his vision to continue to serve greater Los Angeles area and abroad. So Fabian, maybe I'll read the parable to you and kind of get your thoughts on it. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking

with her grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up at his grandparent and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you, what does that parable mean to you in your life and in the work that you do? Personally, I think it depends on what portion of your life you're in, right? So I think back in my time when I was struggling and I was involved in gang violence and drug addiction, yes, then that

parable to me would make a lot more sense then. But I think as you start to transform and heal, you come to recognize that there is no bad people. And so when you think of that, you know, you recognize for me, for example, like I've always wanted to be loving and caring to my children, but it was behind drugs, addiction, and violence that I couldn't be present in their life. But that didn't make me a bad person. It just made me to be lost in the interim. So to me, when I hear that parable, it's about, yes, if we put it in that perspective, there is a duality in human beings that we're constantly fighting to stay ahead to the right thing, to live in compassion, to be loving,

caring. There is that aspect. And of course, you know, our trauma, our misery, our suffering now for me personally is what I don't want to feed, but I embrace in order to stay on that positive side of things. And so that's what we do here. I think what we try to do in our work is to remind folks of their goodness all the time and what it is they bring and who they are as individuals. individuals. For the bad, we recognize and we live in there. And it's the reasons why we don't heal or transform. It delays our process. And so when we're doing this work, we're always finding the goodness and reminding the folks that we work with of their goodness until it prevails away from the past. Yeah, I love that perspective. I've followed Homeboy Industries and the work you guys have done. Nine, ten years now, I've been familiar with what you do. And I've always been struck by what you just said, which is that sense of doesn't matter what somebody comes through the door with, you're looking for the good, the undamaged, the best parts of them. Absolutely. And I think that's what it takes for the world to

be able to remove any stereotypes or any misconceptions of the image of the gang member or just a person in itself, regardless of the mistakes he's ever made. You know, there's always goodness in somebody, you know, prior to, and it's about finding where it stems from, you know, rather than judging them for what they do, because every action stems from something. And what is that something, you know? And then you start to learn and understand the stories behind the individual, which then you say to yourself, I don't blame you. I would have probably done the same, right? But how do we move them from that? And how do we invite them to this kinship and compassion that we still talk about

at Homeboy Industries? That's the idea. And it starts with them, right? So before we can be compassionate of another, we need to be compassionate to ourselves. Before we can begin to love another, we have to begin to love ourselves. And I think that's what we do good at Homeboy is that we love them, we cherish them with tenderness and compassion until they learn how to do it for themselves. And then everything else comes after that. So was there a moment for you or a series of moments? Maybe you could walk us through kind of when things started to change for you and how that happened. I think for me, I've always wanted to change. And I think I was a person who was

raised by great grandparents, you know, first generation Mexican-American. Both grandparents came with many core values that would take off their shirts to give to the next man. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. All that, you know, all that came with my family. But it wasn't until my father, right, who was a great man as well, who I looked up to, who I admired, he had to make some choices that put him in the path of incarceration. He was an immigrant. And so when we came to Los Angeles, he tried to provide for his family. But because of the obstacles in place for an immigrant, he thought his best thinking led him to the quick fix, which is drug dealing. And I think that's when the impact began for me personally.

I started to not see my father often. He would be in prison three years, come home two, three months, do the same, go back for another four. And so I was kind of raised by myself and my mother. So for me, those are the disparities that began to rob me of my hope in a sense. Even though grandma taught me well, and even though my mother modeled everything well, I was still missing something.

And that was the guidance and love from my father that I really needed as a young man. And so then you start to fill in the blanks, per se. And you start to fall for things, you know, other things. And in the environment where I grew up, in Boyle Heights, in East Los Angeles, Boyle Heights, there's gangs all around us, and every block is a gang. And where I come from is where Father Greg came to do his missionary

work, which was Dolores Mission Catholic Church. I went to Dolores Mission Catholic School. So I've known Father Greg since I was 10 years old. And because of all this turmoil that I encountered, not knowing how to cope, how to deal with things, I then start to partake and contributing the same misery onto others. It wasn't until I decided to kill myself. I had three near-death experiences, suicide attempts, and it wasn't my third suicide when I started to see that there is something much more greater than myself. There's something bigger than the life I'm living now. Even though I had children, even though I had a wife, and I have family who love me,

I had to do it for me. And it wasn't until my third suicide attempt where I gained my spiritual awakening. That's when I knew there is something greater than me, greater than myself. And so at that point, did you remember Father Greg and the work he was doing and seek out his help and Homeboy's help? Or did you originally get help via a different way? You know, he would be there for me and he would just remind me, come on, son, you have a drinking problem, you have a drug problem. Come on, son. Come on, son. But it had to come from within me. And eventually, because of that connection with Father Greg and Homeboy in existence, I knew then when it was time for me to make that change, the first step I took was to go to Salvation Army Rehabilitation Center.

So I went to Salvation Army Rehabilitation Center. So I went to Salvation Army. I did six months there, and I started to unpack all that hurt, all that pain that I was running from. And I knew then when I started to feel free or clear of drugs, then I knew that it was time to go look for Father Greg. And so I came to Homeboy Industries in 2007, and that's when I walked through the door, and Father Greg Boyle received me with open arms and he gave me an opportunity to reclaim my life. And so in that moment, I decided to get back into Homeboy and work my way up. I'm a fellow alcoholic drug addict in recovery. Did you go to any external programs for that? Or did you find what you needed in Homeboy? Oh, no, absolutely. No, no, no, no. So I have to stay. Recovery is a lifetime process,

and we know this. And so I also have therapy. I have mental health. I have a therapist. I also did NA meetings, right? You still have to go to those support groups, NA meetings. You have a sponsor that you have to stay working with as well. So it's an ongoing process. Here I am at 17 years now, clean and sober, and I become that sponsor. And now I'm the one giving back and I'm the one helping others, you know, and that's an addict helping another addict. Now, my experience is not their experience, but together we can create one. And it comes with recovery. It comes with healing and transformation. And that is who I've become. And until this day, I still have a supervisor of some sort, mental health supervisor, that I check in. Because a lot of these things, if you're not in healing, they will be re-triggered.

If you're not in recovery, you will get re-triggered. And then I think in time, it does heal things. And then you get a better ego life, bird's view on how to correspond to the world rather than react to the world. You know what I mean? And I think that's the beauty because we could react to the world and reacting to the world. I don't know how far that got me. So it's better to step back and correspond in a way that is going to be healthy and beneficial for me first and foremost, so that I can be effective to those who are receiving or who I'm walking with. I'm Jason Alexander.

And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you

and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you two? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir.

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And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called really no really. And you can find it on the I heart radio app on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So now let's add art into the mix. I know that you're now the director of the homeboy industries, art Institute. Yes. The homeboy art Academy home Homeboy Industries Art Academy. Yes. And I think for me, art has always been an essential tool. I mean, I was born with the

gift of art ever since I was a kid. Regardless of what aspect of life I was partaking in, I was still an artist, born an artist. And then ever since I was a kid, I remember I would admire the animation cartoons like Tom and Jerry, Popeye, He-Man, and all these great cartoons. Those images would just do something for me as a child. And so when I was a kid and my father would come home and disrupt the household and the family because of his drug addiction, domestic violence, mom in despair, I would go and hide under a coffee table. And I remember this at six years old around that time. And I will go and hide under a coffee table and I'll pick up my notebook and I'll begin to create my own worlds to escape my reality. That's when I discovered art

to be more than just a talent. It was a gift. It was a coping mechanism, something that I can turn to and that I can utilize to hold me when it felt like no one else was holding me. And I practiced that throughout my years of life. And even in incarceration, I would draw a body. Even when I was in jail, I would draw, draw, draw. On drugs addictions, I would draw, draw, draw. Never did I lose sight of my gift of art. And I think for me, I was painting even through my drug addiction, Virgin Mary's throughout the city of Los Angeles.

I'll put signs on different liquor stores, you know, to get my fix. But now, you know, when I came to Homeboy in 2007, I knew exactly what I had to do. Besides recovery, first and foremost, I had a gift and I have to pick that brush and continue to express my thoughts, emotions, most importantly, my lived experience. And that's when I started to paint all over again. I had an exhibit in 2008 after I got clean at Homegirl Cafe and I recognized how many people really cared about me and really loved me and knew me as an artist from my community. And I said, hmm, this feels good. How do I amplify it? And then the next year, another series of art. Then the next year, another series of art. Now you're going to

Mexico City and now they want you in New York. Oh, and by the way, would you go to Jamaica? Oh, and Chile wants you as well. Honduras. And here I am now traveling the world through my own story, testimonial, but most importantly, how the art corresponds to my lived experience. And also doing productions, you know, for like different movie sets, you know, and also designs for the movie industry here in Hollywood. And I started to say, okay, now I'm living my dream in the way that I'm utilizing my gift to not only change, to inspire folks for transformation, but also opening doors as a self-taught artist. That in itself is very meaningful and can be utilized to inspire the next young man and woman that walks through my door. I've heard you say that the question for you is how do I take all my experiences being a gang member, having no father, drug addiction, put it in a jar, shake it up and see what comes out. Absolutely. And that was from the Getty

Museum. I said that in a little short doc of the Getty because one of my artworks does live in the vault of the Getty Museum through the book called A Book of Friends. And that book houses all LA graffiti artists. And so to me, it's that art is powerful, man. Like art can make people or break people, right? So if art is a window to another dimension, then what images am I portraying to the world? And so I think for me, it's about taking my struggle, my lived experiences and all those accomplishments and creating images that are reflective of my community. And this way they too can feel the transcendence

of my own personal healing, but also say, man, I use it for uplifting. And I also paint real people in my art. So I would choose someone from here like, hey, you know what? Let's just say, Rosalinda, you have a look. Can I paint you to tell that story? I don't know what you're going to do, but I guess. And so when I do that and I tell that story through an image, she feels inspired and she feels seen. Like he chose me to do that oh my god and they also get to see themselves in a different light but most importantly i think for me it's like what is my responsibility as an artist

my responsibility as an artist is to help remove all stereotypes that have been placed upon the image of the gang member by utilizing identity, culture, religion, and gender. Those are my subject and themes that I utilize to combat the stereotypes and helps me return the image of the gang member back to his humanity or her humanity. That's beautiful. I want to ask you a question about hope. You know, the work that you guys do at Homeboy, there are incredible stories of hope. Your story is an incredible story. But there's also great tragedy in there. Absolutely.

How do you maintain a sense of hope? Or how do you know what to hope for in the work that you do? How do you think about hope? I mean, hope is just extending our hand and being with folks tenderly, not judgment and all that. But I also believe that a lot of us already come from that lifestyle. Right. So I think personally, we get to build relationship with folks. We get to know folks.

And I also believe that, yeah, because this is the things that we are up against, you know, leaving or being part of a gang. And because of all those things we've seen, you know, we always living in fear. So the goal is to help them not to live in fear by creating a community of love, compassion, and understanding that it will penetrate so much that then you have the essence to believe that you too belong and that you too have a sense of worth in this world. And that in itself would smash or topple that fear that we come from or that we live through. And so it is important and it is through ritual that we acknowledge even in these tragedies, we always shine light on the goodness for For there is a lesson to be learned for every single one of us. Fabian brings something. Eric brings something. There are

things that we contribute to this world. And when those tragedies do happen, we make sure that our community recognizes and is reminded of the individual's goodness so that they too can feel that essence of hope coming from the contributions of those who might have left us a bit too soon. What do you hope for now at this stage in your life, your recovery, where you are? What do you hope for? I mean, I think for me, it's always been a dream of mine. Growing up in East Los Angeles, Boyle Heights, you know, there are minimal resources. And, you know, I recognize that if I would have had a four-year college or had some sense of foundation or stability, I probably would have avoided many of the things that I've encountered. But because we come from deprivation, you know, poverty, you know, and knowing that I'm an artist and I'm talented,

my mom couldn't afford art supplies, you know, I shared that either we get milk or you get a brush. So, of course, I'm going to run with the milk. We need it for the house, right? So we had to make choices around circumstantial barriers. So for me, my vision of the Homeboy Art Academy is to be able to create a community art school within the community, such as it's going to be able to receive everyone here and provide everything that an institution can provide with hopes to put you into this trajectory of the art world, let's just say. And that's all it is, man. If I can leave assets for my children, I have seven beautiful kids and a beautiful wife who stuck with me throughout my journey, man. and a beautiful wife who stuck with me throughout my journey, man. And I put her through a lot and she still stands by me. That's still with me. And now she reaps all the rewards of my own recovery,

but I would just want to be able to leave some assets and also let my kids know who I was as a legend and artist of Los Angeles. And I think I'm doing a great job so far, but most importantly, leave a community college within community that can live on for those next generations to come. Well, I think you are doing it beautifully also. A word that's used a lot, at least in Father Greg's writing, so I assume it works its way through Homeboy, is the word kinship. Is that a word that has meaning to you? Yeah, well, that's, I think, what we call for the world, right? For all of us to be in kinship. Is that a word that has meaning to you? Yeah, well, that's, I think, what we call for the world, right? For all of us to be in kinship, regardless of race, ethnicity, regardless of

choices or where I come from, where you come from. I mean, kinship is a circle where everyone belongs, right? And I think that's what we try to convey to the world. And that's how we live here. And I think in kinship is how we penetrate the lives of these young men and women that come through our doors because for so many years or so many decades we have been excluded or demonized or judged or pushed out in a sense and when you come to homeboy regardless of what we do we embrace you and we're just going to get closer. And I think that's all the world needs. You know, that's the antidote. If we can all just see eye to eye and live in kinship, regardless of where we are or who we are, then we're making a big

difference. And that's just too bad that the world hasn't seen that yet. But in our world at Homeboy, we do. And then what happens at Homeboy, because I've changed my life, now I have a ripple effect. And then I create the same thing G put in place amongst my youth here, and then they change their life, and then they create a ripple effect. And that's the idea. So Father Greg, back in the days, I used to ask him, how is it working with gangs? And Father Greg would say, I don't work with gangs. I work with gang member. Because the minute the gang member decides to redirect his life, in the end, there's no recruits. Now, let's put it in perspective. Fabian has seven children.

The chances of my kids joining a gang is zero to none. It's ridiculous because now there's nothing but love, compassion, and understanding. In my household, everything a child needs to sustain his innocence, to feel his worth, to go out and meet the world. There's no more abuse. There's no more domestic violence. There's no alcoholism, no drug addiction, nothing but love, compassion, and understanding. no drug addiction, nothing but love, compassion, and understanding. And that's it. And you'd be surprised. I have my 14-year-old. At 14, I was leery. I was already in and out of incarceration. At 18, I was already in adult prison, in and out. And here I got my 19-year-old hard worker, got his car, doing great in college. I got my other 18 year old who's going to be a police officer and he's a lead cadet, three years in the academy. He's getting ready to get an internship to go be

a police officer. And I sit back, Eric, and I sit in my living room and I look at my family and my children and my kids. I'm like, you're blessed at 13. Look where you were. You have no worry about him going there or doing that. And that goes back to making the decision to turn my life around. Because I know if I would have been missing in their life, I could only imagine how dark it could get. Yeah, yeah. That really is a beautiful story. And I look at my son, who is now 23. And when I was his age, I was a homeless heroin addict, you know, and just to see where he's at. Everybody has challenges, but he is in just such a different place than I was at that age. I feel so fortunate and blessed.

know and you and I, Eric, know how dark it can get and how lonely it can be and how destructive it can become. Yeah. And I think every father, and if you hear it here working with these young men and women as well as adults, every father or every homeboy or homegirl, the first thing they say is like, I just don't want my kids to go through what I've gone through. Yes. And that is to be true. There's some major truth

behind that. And they would say, what if though? And then they say, what if one of your kids just decides to? And then you say, well, at least I've crawled through those darkest tunnels of my life and I know and have discovered things that I feel may work. So I'll be the best person to hold them, even if that happens in my household. Yeah. Is there anything else you would like to add that you feel is important? Yeah, I just want to share, you know, I am a very spiritual person. Now, I'm a very spiritual believer. I am a spiritual person. And I would just say this, the book, Forgive Everyone and Everything, to me, it's just another seal of approval. Knowing that I met Greg when I was 10 years old and he always infused the arts within the community then.

And here we are, you know, 34 years later that I've known him. Maybe I've known him for like, well, I was 10. Yeah, I've known him for like 28 years, 10 and yeah i've known for like 28 years almost 30 years let's say and so i would say here we are 30 years later coming together under this one book and him infusing the arts way back when i was 10 years old to see this book come together two power players man it's like it just looks amazing his words with my visuals. It's a beautiful chemistry. I always tell him it's a match made in heaven. He starts laughing.

Yeah. But yeah, it's a good book, and I think the art corresponds. And why does it work? I think they asked me last time. Why does it work so beautifully? It's because we're in enlightenment. Father Greg's words are my images, and my images are inspired by Father Greg's words because we've come from homeboy.

There's a movement. There's a healing element. And that's why the images correspond beautifully, man, because it's the same mission. I do it visually. He does it through literature, you know? Yeah, I agree. I mean, like I said, I've read Father Greg's work since he's been publishing, but to see it with your art gives it a whole nother element. It is a really beautiful book. And you're right, you guys are in kinship with each other, for sure. And it comes through in the book. Absolutely. But thank you, Eric, for allowing me to share and be here with you today. And I hope any of these words that have come through me, whoever's listening, that it inspires you and that it motivates you.

And if you have anyone who might be struggling or people you may know, you know, where does this stem from? Let's get to know them. Let's be tender and really get to the bottom of why is it that these folks tend to struggle? And maybe then and maybe there, the movement will begin for transformation for the individual. Don't lose hope for God is good. And with that being said, thank you so much, Eric, for having me here. You are very welcome. It was my pleasure. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast.

When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members-only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now, we are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level, and become a member of the One You Feed community, go to oneyoufeed.net slash join. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really No Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.